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Bradley Manning says he wants to live as a woman named Chelsea

Army says it doesn't provide the treatment or sex-reassignment surgery

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  • UteMiguel Go Utes, CA
    Aug. 22, 2013 7:26 a.m.

    I hope my tax dollars are not used for this "therapy."

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 7:53 a.m.

    What exactly does he mean "as a woman"?

    Societies around the world for thousands of years have used a consistent and correct definition for man and woman.

    If liberals are proposing a chance, what is the new definition of man and woman?

    And no, it can't be "whatever your mind tells you"

    If my mind tells me I'm a purple dinosaur, I am not a purple dinosaur

    If my mind tells me I am the number 8, I am not the number 8.

    If my mind tells me I am a piano, I am not a piano.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 7:56 a.m.

    Why does he think he is a woman?

    What specifically about him makes him believe he is a woman?

    And whatever that is, that must be a definining characteristic that all women have, and only women have(if that is what is convincing him he is a woman)

    So again I ask, what do all women have that he knows he is a woman?

  • bdckpakccd Plano, TX
    Aug. 22, 2013 8:21 a.m.

    UteMiguel---My thoughts exactly. This should not be paid for using public funds. I really, really hope this isn't a cheap ploy to get out of his awful situation.

  • JWB Kaysville, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 8:34 a.m.

    He must have heard about the California law just signed into effective law. Hopefully, they don't put him in a federal prison or leased prison in California where he will tweak his desire now that he has been sentenced to less than what the Government wanted.

  • Prodicus Provo, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 8:40 a.m.

    This is the kind of military we can look forward to in the post-DADT era. Thoroughly confused, mixed up, and turned around (that's the etymology of "perverted" - thoroughly turned around) individuals who are happy to betray their country and the lives of our allies if they don't think their cross-dressing is taken seriously enough.

    Chaplains and counselors are being told they cannot discourage this kind of stuff. Psychologists have ripped up the old DSMs which recognized these kinds of things as disordered and instead will try to drive anybody who thinks this is unhealthy out of the profession.

    Welcome to our "brave new world."

  • J-TX Allen, TX
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:00 a.m.

    I hope he/she pursues legally changing his/her name to "Chelsea Manning" while behind bars.

    That way, when they look to parole "Bradley Manning" in 7 years, he won't exist.

    Chelsea can then stay in prison for life, as deserved.

  • 2 bits Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:02 a.m.

    I don't care, as long as he doesn't want me (or tax payers) to pay the bill, and he doesn't want a transfer to a woman's facility.

    I think if prisoners were given the choice to be transferred to a woman's facility they would all take it. MUCH less chance of getting raped or beat up.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:02 a.m.

    @Christopher B --

    "Societies around the world for thousands of years have used a consistent and correct definition for man and woman."

    Really?

    Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition"? Please be specific.

  • Tekakaromatagi Dammam, Saudi Arabia
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:04 a.m.

    I am a flying purple dinosaur and if you don't believe me you are a bigot.

  • joy Logan, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    He obviously seems to be an intelligent individual which tells me he knew what he was doing was wrong
    so he should have been tried for Treason. They think his three years he has been waiting for trial should be
    time spent and now released. Are you kidding me. What is wrong with these defense attorneys do they not have
    a conscience?
    As for his therapy that's his personal choice and he needs to deal with it. Not with tax payer money.
    The only chance we have for that not to happen is it's a military court opposed to our Supreme Court.
    They'd grant it without hesitation.

  • Play Nice Herriman, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:49 a.m.

    I place this on the priority list of how to not spend American dollars right next to not sending another dime to Egypt. . . ever.

  • Daniel Leifker San Francisco, CA
    Aug. 22, 2013 10:26 a.m.

    As I recall, the city of San Francisco offers medical benefits to city employees that includes sex-change operations. When this change to benefits was originally debated, some people argued (presumably with a straight face) that gender reassignment should not be included as a benefit because it would encourage people to "experiment" with sex-change operations at the taxpayer's expense. The benefit was offered, though, with a $50,000 cap on total expenses. Interestingly, at the time, male-to-female surgery was estimated to cost $37,000 and female-to-male (for obvious extra work) was $77,000. I hope Bradley Manning can do whatever he needs to do to end his suffering.

  • redshirt007 tranquility base, 00
    Aug. 22, 2013 10:49 a.m.

    Well it's true, you just can't make this stuff up. Fiction writers everywhere are shaking their heads because it would be considered over the top if they wrote it..

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 11:54 a.m.

    Does Obamacare pick up sex changes? Most likely. Bradley - I mean Chelsea - you will be taken care of dear.

    We live in a weird world!!

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 11:54 a.m.

    @Contrarious,

    The same definition hospitals around the world use when filling out birth certificates. The doctors at the hospitals have been to medical school and they who to look for to determine if someone is a man or a woman.

  • Ironmomo Ogden, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2013 12:00 p.m.

    I think Bradley is taking the Army's slogan "Be All That You Can Be" the wrong way.

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 12:33 p.m.

    He wants a sex change operation? Let him wait until he gets out of jail, hopefully in 35 years time, and then let him pay for it himself.

  • stanfunky Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 12:54 p.m.

    Not exactly the thing you want to say before entering a federal prison for 35 years. Just sayin...

  • riverofsun St.George, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2013 1:16 p.m.

    Mr./Miss Manning is an individual who has been touted as a hero by many.
    Just because he has changed his own private life to what he sees fit, he no long qualifies as a hero?
    Thought everyone was so proud of him for putting the truth out for everyone to see?
    Did he not behavior similarly to Edward Snowdon, who many feel "sacrificed his life" to extol the "hidden truths" for all to see?

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 22, 2013 2:07 p.m.

    @Christopher B --

    T"he same definition hospitals around the world use when filling out birth certificates."

    Birth certificates are wrong fairly frequently. Just google "birth certificate gender errors" and you'll find thousands of pages about errors and how to get them corrected.

    In addition to simple clerical errors, roughly one in every 5000 babies has enough physical ambiguity to make accurate gender assignment difficult or impossible by simple visual inspection.

    Some babies may even physically appear to be normal as one gender, yet have chromosomes of the opposite gender -- and some babies may have chromosomes of both genders (XXY) or of no gender (XO). Furthermore, some babies may have physical structures from BOTH genders.

    So I'll ask you again: Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition" that you claim to have? Please be specific.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 3:24 p.m.

    This argument equating gender (male/female) with species, is a really ridiculous argument.

    Physical gender is assigned based on a visual inspection of an individual's body - it does not look at DNA, it does not look at hormones, it does not look at an individual's psych - it looks at nothing but the body.

    And it doesn't even look at the inside of the body - just the outside.

    Google "Caster Semenya" or "Steve Credelius."

    No one ever looks at a human and thinks they are a dinosaur, or a number, or a piece of furniture. Rational human beings know the difference between human and non-human.

    If the best you can do to support your opinion that men-are-men-and-women-are-women is to compare yourself to a non-human object, that just shows how poorly you understand nature and the world around you and how few rational arguments actually support your position.

    Oh - and don't be so ethnocentric. Many cultures have a third sex/third gender designation. Writings from Mesopotamia and Ancient Egypt include references to a third gender. Many third gender individuals were revered as having a special connection to the gods.

  • lost in DC West Jordan, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 5:42 p.m.

    Contrarius,
    Sorry you do not know the difference between men and women. It has to do with the types of chromosomes they have in their genetic make-up. Most people don’t even need the high school biology classes that teach about chromosomes to know the difference between men and women.

    Tell me, are all liberals as confused about gender as you seem to be? Do none of them know the difference between men and women?

    Furry,
    Thanks for expressing some common sense!

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 22, 2013 6:36 p.m.

    @lost in DC --

    "It has to do with the types of chromosomes they have in their genetic make-up."

    So tell us, Lost.

    If XX makes a woman, and XY makes a man -- then what is a person who is XXY?

    What is a person who is XO?

    If a baby is born that physically looks male -- and that baby is raised as a male -- then what happens if that baby turns out to have XX chromosomes?

    If a baby is born that physically looks female -- and that baby is raised as a female -- then what happens if that baby turns out to have XY chromosomes?

    And how about chimaeras? A chimaera is a person (or animal) who contains genetic material from two different fetuses that fused together in the womb. If a person happens to be a chimaera of one female fetus and one male fetus, then the baby will have both XX and XY cells. So, Lost -- is this a male or a female?

    All of these things do happen.

    Please explain how your theory would apply to them.

  • no fit in SG St.George, Utah
    Aug. 22, 2013 6:52 p.m.

    DN readers may want to do some research on this.
    Those of us who have worked in Labor and Delivery/Newborn Nursery in the hospitals around this country can verify that babies are born with genitalia that is not either male or female. Parents must wait a lengthy period of time for DNA results following a visit with their newborn to a MD specializing in genetics.
    Following this.......there are many decisions that must be made. Decisions parents were definitely not prepared for.

  • David Centerville, UT
    Aug. 22, 2013 9:47 p.m.

    Granted that in this sphere of existence there are mutations, that does not change the fact that God made man and woman. He did not make a 3rd gender. Over the course of time mutations have arisen. Proof to the fact of entropy and telestial existence. Doesn't mean God "made a mistake" at all. In the resurrection this kind of thing will all be sorted out, right?

    For those suffering from gender identity problems, or are born with physical challenges, I feel for them and express concern, sympathy, and kindness.

  • Maudine SLC, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 6:51 a.m.

    @ David: The God you believe in and worship only created two genders - many other religions (even some that are Christian) believe differently than you.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 23, 2013 8:27 a.m.

    @lost in DC --

    "It has to do with the types of chromosomes they have in their genetic make-up."

    So tell us, Lost.

    If XX makes a woman, and XY makes a man -- then what is a person who is XXY?

    What is a person who is XO?

    If a baby is born that physically looks male -- and that baby is raised as a male -- then what happens if that baby turns out to have XX chromosomes?

    If a baby is born that physically looks female -- and that baby is raised as a female -- then what happens if that baby turns out to have XY chromosomes?

    And how about chimeras? A chimera is a person (or animal) who contains genetic material from two different fetuses that fused together in the womb. If a person happens to be a chimera of one female fetus and one male fetus, then the baby will have both XX and XY cells. So, Lost -- is this person a male or a female?

    All of these things do happen in real life.

    Please explain how your theory would apply to them.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 11:05 a.m.

    I think we should do as liberals propose: end all reference to gender anywhere.

    Can you imagine how it would come back to bite them:

    War against women. What women?

    Title IX - gone. There is no such thing as men/women anymore. It's impossible to tell what gender someone really is

    Pay inequality claims: gone, there is no distinction between men and women anymore

    Peeping toms: No such thing. Any man(I mean person) can walk into any locker room he wishes in high school or at the gym, as there is really so such thing as a way to distinguish between men and women.

    LOL!

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 23, 2013 11:28 a.m.

    @Chris B --

    Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition" of gender that you keep claiming to have?

    Please be specific.

  • 1978 Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 12:45 p.m.

    @Christopher B

    Great comment!

    Personally I don't think Manning has any issues with his "identity". I think he is a clever guy who is in a lot of trouble and knows how to get out of it.

    He now has the LGBT community on his side and judges everywhere will support repealing his conviction based on discrimination.

    President Obama will personally apologize to him and MSNBC will give him his own talk show where 27 people will watch it making it the highest rated show on their network.

    You have to hand it to the kid!

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 12:56 p.m.

    He wants to live as a woman.

    Ok.

    What exactly does that mean?

    What are the defining characteristics of being a woman that he currently does not have?

    Every society I can think of has determined reasons to distinguish between men and women.

    Bradley seems to suggest there are differences as well.

    So I ask.

    What will make Bradley a woman?

    Does he think a blonde wig makes someone a woman and that unless a person is wearing a blonde wig they are not a woman?

    I'd love to help him out on his quest to be a woman, we just need to know what is a woman and what is a man if we are to help him become a woman.

    How can we help me achieve his goal if he can't tell us what his goal is.

    What is a woman Bradley?

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 23, 2013 1:30 p.m.

    @Chris B --

    "What is a woman Bradley?"

    What is a woman, Chris?

    Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition" of gender that you keep claiming to have?

    Please be specific.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 2:01 p.m.

    Society long ago through consistent and medical backing determined that Manning is a man.

    Growing up he undoubtedly filled out numerous school, legal, governmental, and person documents identifying himself as a man.

    If he believes he is a now a woman, I would love him to tell us how he knows this.

    Bradley, we just want to help you.

    What do you mean you want to live your life as a woman?

    We can't help you until you tell us what this means.

    Is everyone who wears a blonde wig a woman?

    Does this mean that only people wearing blonde wigs should be allowed in womens locker rooms?

    Should all people not wearing blonde wigs be now identified as men?

    Again, I just want to help Bradley. Clearly he needs it.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 23, 2013 2:42 p.m.

    @Chris B --

    "Society long ago through consistent and medical backing determined that Manning is a man."

    If you google "Marine birth certificate gender error", you will find a current case of an active service US Marine who recently discovered that his birth certificate STILL records him as a female. Does that actually *make* him a female?

    As for Manning: have you personally seen Manning without his clothes on?

    Have you personally done, or seen the results of, chromosomal analysis on him?

    Remember the last summer Olympics, with the big controversy about whether the South African runner Caster Semenya was actually male or female? And the answer required much more than simply accepting what everyone had said up to that time -- it actually required extensive medical testing to figure out?

    There have been quite a few cases in which people physically appear as, and are raised as, one gender even though they have the chromosomes and/or internal organs of the opposite gender. Check out, for instance, the famous story of David Reimer.

    Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition" of gender that you keep claiming to have, Chris?

    Please be specific.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 3:01 p.m.

    contagions,

    I just want to help manning become a her.

    He claims he is a she. And he wants to be treated as a she. But how can we treat someone as a she unless I know what makes someone a he and what makes someone a she.

    If you're proposing eliminating any reference of gender anywhere, just be careful what you ask for.

    Are you really suggesting we eliminate any distinction between men and women?

    Society has an established definition for men and women that is used for hundreds of things.

    If someone is proposing a chance to what society has used for thousands of years, a logical question is "Ok, what is your new definition"

    If one cannot provide what their new definition is, society will continue to use the definition that has been used with much success for tens of thousands of years.

    Again, I think we all want the same thing.

    We all want to help him become a her.

    But if he can't tell me what makes someone a her, we can't help him lose the "him" and obtain the her.

    What is the new proposed definition?

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Aug. 23, 2013 3:51 p.m.

    @Chris --

    "He claims he is a she. And he wants to be treated as a she. But how can we treat someone as a she unless I know what makes someone a he and what makes someone a she."

    How can you *object* to Manning being treated as a "she", when you don't even know what makes someone a "she" yourself?

    "If you're proposing eliminating any reference of gender anywhere, just be careful what you ask for."

    I never proposed any such thing, fortunately. :-)

    "If someone is proposing a chance to what society has used for thousands of years"

    Actually, several societies have had alternate definitions for gender over those thousands of years, including some with definitions for three and even more genders.

    What is a woman, Chris?

    Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition" of gender that you keep claiming to have?

    Please be specific.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 5:28 p.m.

    1978: "Personally I don't think Manning has any issues with his 'identity'. I think he is a clever guy who is in a lot of trouble and knows how to get out of it."

    This does not seem to be a recent ploy to evade punishment. According to Wikipedia, Manning revealed in a May 2010 conversation (before the leaks) a pending discharge for adjustment disorder. Couple that with the photo (taken pre-arrest) and you have either a remarkably premeditated plan or a longstanding condition. The latter seems more likely.

    SRS is not something one does on a whim.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 23, 2013 5:46 p.m.

    Contagious,

    Are you aware that our society distinguishes between men and women?

    What is your understanding of what make someone a man and what makes someone a woman.

    For example, moral people agree men belong in male locker rooms at the gym and women belong in female locker rooms.

    99.9% of society agrees on what makes someone a man and what makes someone a woman for the purpose of answering "who should go in a women's locker room"

    Some people are attempting to change the definion as has been used in thousands of locker rooms used in countries around the world for countless years.

    If such a proposal is being made, I ask again, what is the defintion of male and female as it is applied to the question "who should go in male locker rooms" and "who should go in female locker rooms.

    My suggestion: same definition that 99.9% of society agrees with.

    I'm happy to entertain other suggestions, I just have yet to year one.

    And as such society will continue to treat men as men and women as women.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Aug. 23, 2013 6:18 p.m.

    @Chris B --

    "What is your understanding of what make someone a man and what makes someone a woman."

    My "understanding" of gender is irrelevant right now, since I haven't stated any position on Manning one way or the other. ;-)

    "99.9% of society agrees on what makes someone a man and what makes someone a woman"

    99.9% of society used to agree that the world was flat. That didn't make it true.

    "for the purpose of answering "who should go in a women's locker room"

    If a baby is born with the external physical characteristics of a female, and is raised as a female -- but is later found out to have XY chromosomes -- should that person go in the men's locker room, or the women's locker room?

    You still haven't answered my earlier question, Chris. I'll ask it again.

    Exactly what is this "consistent and correct definition" of gender that you keep claiming to have? You claimed there was one, but you still haven't produced it. I wonder why.

    And please, be specific.

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    Aug. 24, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    It is worth noting that for 20+ years Bradley has self identified as a man.

    School applications, bank applications, MILITARY applications all require people to "check the box" next to male or female.

    Bradley's doctors, military personnel, and even Himself have identified himself as a man up until now.

    If he has now decided for years and years he was wrong, his doctors were wrong, the military was wrong, his friends were wrong, the government was wrong, I am curious how he knows this.

    If every personal alive who knew him(himself included) identified him as a male up until recently, I'm just curious what led to him being convinced they are wrong?

    The likelihood that all doctors, government, military, parents, friends, Manning himself were all wrong for a couple decades? The same likelihood that I am a flying purple dinosaur.

    I can tell myself all day long. But its still not true

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    Aug. 24, 2013 2:25 p.m.

    It's very possible this is just a phase.

    All kids play make believe.

    I remember when I played basketball with friends I was always Michael Jordan growing up.

    I knew that reality was not so, but it was fun to tell myself, my friends, and even my parents that for those times when I was on the court, I was Michael Jordan.

    Maybe this is similar to that?

    Everyone knows, but maybe its just his way of playing make believe?

    I grew out of that years ago, and maybe Bradley will too.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Aug. 24, 2013 5:47 p.m.

    @Cris B --

    "If every personal alive who knew him(himself included) identified him as a male up until recently, I'm just curious what led to him being convinced they are wrong?"

    Google the case of Steve Crecelius. Steve has been married for 25 years, and has six children (they may be adopted, but I don't know).

    In 2007, Steve went to the hospital for kidney stones. During testing, it was discovered that "he" had ovaries.

    He is now living as a woman. He says that ever since he was a teenager he felt "different" and feminine, yet he continued to live life as a man -- because externally he looked like one. But now he knows that there was a biological reason behind his feelings.

    You don't know anything about Bradley Manning. You don't know if he is physically intersex like Crecelius, or if he has a chromosomal abnormality, a hormone imbalance, or anything else. You simply don't know. And you can't even give us your supposed "consistent and correct definition" of gender that you've been touting.

    You have absolutely no information about Manning's physical condition. So how can you presume to judge him?

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    Aug. 24, 2013 10:09 p.m.

    I am a very open minded person. I am willing to listen to any argument for why Bradley is a woman.

    I am more than willing to apply logic and science to any reason given.

    If Bradley had ovaries that would be a good indication he was a woman.

    But he doesn't.

    Because he is a dude.

    Many doctors who have applied their extensive medical expertise concluded Bradley is a man

    The military concluded he is a man.

    His parents concluded he is a man.

    The government concluded he is a man.

    If he disagrees, I just ask what reason does he have?

    Because he thinks it?

    I am not a flying purple dinosaur if I think I am

    Because he wishes it?

    I am not a flying purple dinosaur even if I wish it

    But that would be fun!

    What's his reason?

    He wants it?

    Tough. He's a he.

  • Contrariusiest mid-state, TN
    Aug. 25, 2013 7:57 a.m.

    @Cris B. --

    "If Bradley had ovaries that would be a good indication he was a woman.

    But he doesn't."

    How do you know?

    Have you read his medical records?

    Or are you psychic?

    Steve Crecelius was a "man" for more than 40 years before testing for an unrelated problem discovered that he had ovaries.

    Caster Semenya was a "woman" for more than 20 years before people objected that she was running too quickly. And remember, she had to undergo regular drug and hormone testing for competitions -- which didn't discover any problems.

    As stated on the Intersex Society of North America website: "Though we speak of intersex as an inborn condition, intersex anatomy doesn’t always show up at birth. Sometimes a person isn’t found to have intersex anatomy until she or he reaches the age of puberty, or finds himself an infertile adult, or dies of old age and is autopsied. Some people live and die with intersex anatomy without anyone (including themselves) ever knowing."

    There are a wide range of intersex conditions, and you have no way of knowing whether Bradley Manning has any of them or not.

    Unless you really are psychic...

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    Aug. 25, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    Many very intelligent people and specifically doctors trained in differences between men as women have evaluated manning.

    Throughout his life facts have been analyzed that continually concluded he is a guy. Doctors at birth, doctors at checkups, military doctors, perhaps other doctors dying his life, along with his parents, the government, all used facts to determine he is a man

    If he has facts that all these parties missed that show he is a woman, great. What are they? He makes no attempt, as there are none

    Facts hold more weight than wishes.
    Facts have been applied numerous times and consistently came back with the exact same conclusion: male

    I can wish all I want that the laws of physics don't apply to me, but they do

    I can wish and say I am a 7 foot millionaire in the nba.

    But facts disagree.

    The best reason he has?

    Because he thinks it.

    With that said, I am now a flying purple dinosaur.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Aug. 25, 2013 12:52 p.m.

    @Cris B. --

    "Facts hold more weight than wishes."

    Yup -- and you have not yet presented a single hard fact that would prove Manning isn't intersex.

    "Many very intelligent people and specifically doctors trained in differences between men as women have evaluated manning."

    Steve Crecelius was a "man" for more than 40 years. In fact, he's an ex-police officer, who doubtless had to undergo many police physicals during his career.

    Caster Semenya was a "woman" for more than 20 years. She underwent lots of physicals and blood tests for her competitive career.

    As the ISNA specifically states, intersex people may go "undiscovered" their whole lives until autopsies reveal their intersex characteristics.

    "Doctors at birth, doctors at checkups, military doctors, perhaps other doctors dying his life"

    Read up on the Caster Semenya case. It is not always a simple thing to determine whether a person is intersex or not.

    "He makes no attempt, as there are none"

    Have you ever heard of medical confidentiality? Why should his doctors satisfy your curiosity?

    Keep trying, Chris. So far, you don't have a single fact to back up your claim.

    You haven't even defined what a man **is**.

  • ute alumni paradise, UT
    Aug. 25, 2013 2:56 p.m.

    Contrariuser
    So do you have a gender and if so, how do you determine what you are?

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 25, 2013 11:51 p.m.

    @ute alumni --

    "how do you determine what you are?"

    In the vast majority of cases, gender determination is just as simple as Chris believes it is. Most people conform to the norms that we would expect them to.

    HOWEVER, the "edges" of gender are very fuzzy.

    There are many causes and degrees of "intersex" conditions. Some of them are readily apparent on physical exam, and some are not.

    According to the ISNA, roughly 1 in 1500 to 2000 babies have enough ambiguity in their physical appearance that a specialist in sexual differentiation has to be called in, roughly 1 or 2 in every 1000 babies require surgery to make their physical appearance closer to "normal" expectations, and roughly 1 in every 100 have some noticeable difference from "typical" appearance.

    And that's only the intersex conditions that cause **external, visible** changes. Many other conditions cause only internal changes, which may *never* be detected without specialized testing.

    As for the chromosomes -- roughly 1 in 1700 babies is neither XX nor XY. About 1 in 1000 is XXY. And there are other chromosomal abnormalities affecting gender as well.

    Is Bradley Manning biologically intersex? I have no idea.

    And neither does Chris.

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 8:37 a.m.

    When the medical community is trying to make a determination on something, the scientific method is used. No doubt, whether formally or informally, this was applied by numerous doctors who know Manning.

    So let's compare what we know. Facts.

    Bradley's birth doctors used their decades of experience and training and concluded he was a man.

    Bradley's military doctors sued their decades of experience and training and concluded he was a man.

    Bradley's parents used their medical knowledge and understanding(which corresponds with society's definition) of male and female and concluded he was a male.

    the government collectively used society's definition of male and female and concluded he was a male.

    Bradley's friends used society's definition of male and female and concluded he was a male.

    Now keep in mind that these groups all came to their conclusions using the SAME criteria and independently.

    Because society has a long established definition of male and female.

    What is the definition that has been used for thousands of years?

    The same one employed by all parties mentioned here.

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    Where liberals typically get confused here is there is a difference between "gender" and "gender identity"

    He may very well "identify" as a female.

    Just as I may "identify" as a piano. Or the number 8. Or a flying purple dinosaur.

    But Manning is no more a man than I am a piano.

    Even if I identify to that.

    The ironic part about the "treatment" he wants and his lawyers are pushing for is that they further INVALIDATE his claim and further SUPPORT mine!

    So he thinks that he needs to alter his hormones to live his life as a "female"

    If that needs to happen, then he is a agreeing that he is a male.

    Or else he wouldn't have to change anything.

    If he is proposing a change of any kind he's agreeing there are differences between males and females.

    And if he's trying to change something from his current state to a changed state to become a "woman", then before that change he's acknowledging he's a....

    Man!

    LOL

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 9:01 a.m.

    I hate to play the snitch in this thread because nobody likes a narc, but I appreciate equal application of rules.

    I find the DesNews submission rules (200 words, 4 comments) overly restrictive as much as anyone. The 200 word limitation isn't too bad, as it prevents huge cut-and-pastes and forces conciseness. I wouldn't mind if it were bumped to 250, though, and if the word counter algorithm were fixed (I often get comments rejected for being too long when the counter says I have words remaining). The four comment rule has the genuine benefit of discouraging endless strings of is/is not/is too/is not comments. I wouldn't mind seeing it raised to eight or ten because there are some good ideas that take time to develop

    That said, this thread is a prime example of inconsistent application of the rules. It's irritating when obvious sock puppets are allowed to bypass the four comment limit. Much as I agree with Contrarius, it is obvious from names, style, and content that Contrarius, Contrariuser, and Contrariusest are the same person. Same with Chris B, Christopher B, and Cris B. And the various RedShirts. Rein it in, guys.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 10:34 a.m.

    @ChristoperB --

    "Bradley's birth doctors..."

    Steve Crecelius' birth doctors did the same.

    "Bradley's military doctors..."

    Steve Crecelius' police doctors did the same.

    "Bradley's parents used their medical knowledge...."

    Steve Crecelius' parents did the same.

    "the government collectively used society's definition..."

    Steve Crecelius' government did the same.

    "Bradley's friends used society's definition..."

    Steve Crecelius' friends did the same.

    Nonetheless, Steve Crecelius has ovaries.

    "But Manning is no more a man than I am a piano."

    Glad to see you opening your mind. ;-)

    "So he thinks that he needs to alter his hormones to live his life as a "female"""

    Many thousands of women take estrogens every day, Chris.

    "If he is proposing a change of any kind he's agreeing there are differences between males and females."

    Of COURSE there are differences between males and females, Chris. Nobody has claimed anything different.

    But intersex conditions are very widely-known facts. I'm sorry if they don't fit into your personal world view, but they are an established part of reality nonetheless.

    You still don't have a single fact to back up your claim.

    You still haven't even defined what a man **is**.

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 12:37 p.m.

    "Of COURSE there are differences between males and females, Chris"

    Glad to see that you agree with reality.

    I was beginning to think my 4 year old niece was going to have to give you the "birds and the bees" talk.

    She knows the difference.

    LOL.

    I'll let her know she's no longer needed!

    Now lets compare the two sides AND the evidence used.

    Those who concluded he is a man

    1. Birth doctors - FACTS
    2. Parents - FACTS
    3. Military doctors - FACTS
    4. Government - FACTS
    5. Manning Himself for years - FACTS
    6. Friends - FACTS

    Now we look at current manning

    1. Current manning - WISHES

    It's like he's spinning himself in circles. Clearly he is a confused individual.

    He is a man so he wants to change that. But that in and of itself proves he is now a man if he thinks he needs to change something to become a woman. And whatever he changes that must be the definition of male, as he says he needs to change it to become a female.

    LOL.

    A little girl who thinks she is a pony is cute.

    A grown woman who thinks she is a pony needs help.

  • Girlse State Midvale, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 12:53 p.m.

    @Contarius, And yet even though you acknowledge there are differences between men and women you refuse to say what those are. There are times when Chris makes no sense and we all wish he would just go away. But he has a point on this one. What are the differences?

    Why refuse to answer unless it proves Chris right? Your silence is deafening.

    Bringing up the extreme rare case of people who have parts of both sexual organs really limits your own argument as well unless your support is limited to those people. It's as big of a red herring as I've ever seen on these boards.

    If Mr. Manning were to state he wasn't born as one of these rare cases, you'd be stuck. You yourself say there are differences. And then you run away when anyone asks you to define them. Again, the silence says it all! This may be a first and only, but score one for Chris B.

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 12:55 p.m.

    @Chris --

    "Glad to see that you agree with reality."

    At least one of us does. ;-)

    1. Birth doctors - FACTS
    -- Steve Crecelius birth doctors - FACTS

    2. Parents - FACTS
    -- Steve Crecelius parents - FACTS

    3. Military doctors - FACTS
    -- Steve Crecelius police doctors - FACTS

    4. Government - FACTS
    -- Steve Crecelius government - FACTS

    5. Manning Himself for years - FACTS
    -- Steve Crecelius himself for years - FACTS

    6. Friends - FACTS
    -- Steve Crecelius friends - FACTS

    I've done a little more reading on Steve Crecelius. I didn't realize it before, but "he" not only has ovaries but also a uterus, as well as an incompletely formed structure that I can't name on DN. Also, some of "his" children are biologically "his", while the others are from "his" wife's first marriage.

    So, Chris -- is Steve/Stevie Crecelius a man or a woman?

    And how do you know that Bradley Manning isn't just like Steve/Stevie?

  • Contrariusier mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 1:12 p.m.

    @Girlse State --

    "you refuse to say what those are."

    See my previous response to ute alumni.

    If you have any further questions after reading that, please feel free to ask.

  • ChristoperB Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 1:23 p.m.

    I only know what doctors have concluded. I trust those who have collectively hundreds of years of experience(between all the doctors who have ever seen him).

    Hundreds of years of medical experience holds more weight than the wishes of a confused young man.

    If any of these doctors change their mind it will be worth looking at.

    If ALL doctors who have ever evaluated him ALL change their mind it will certainly be interesting.

    Also interesting will be the REASON for the change.

    Can you imagine a world where someone trusted everything another person told them?!

    LOL

    Hopefully some people on these boards are not that gullible.

    I only have facts to go on.

    Neither manning himself nor his lawyers nor his parents nor his parents nor his friends nor the military nor the government has given any reason he is a woman, other than...

    he wishes he were a woman.

    This article is about him wanting to become a woman and be treated a woman.

    If neither him nor his supporters can tell us what they mean by "live as a woman" how are we to help him?

    I sincerely want to help him.

  • Girlse State Midvale, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 1:38 p.m.

    @Contrarius, You believe that failing to answer the question is answering the question? You state "Of course there are differences." Ok. What are they? You seem afraid to answer the question. Why is that? Afraid your feeble responses will come crashing down?

    Assume Ute alumni had responded "I am a man because have male anatomical parts"(forgive this term as I don't want the monitors to censor it). You would have brought up the rare case of people with seemingly both parts, but that only is evidence you don't like his definition. Still doesn't answer the question of "What are the differences that you state exist"?

    You yourself said there are differences. The fact you can point to rare cases doesn't change the fact that you said "Of course there are differences" You don't like their definition. Ok, red herring answer but ok. But its still not answering the question. Because you don't like the answer to something that you brought up.

    "OF COURSE there are difference between males and females" And they are? If you care to answer, answer. If not, spin spin away.

  • Contrariuserer mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 2:25 p.m.

    @ChristoperB --

    "I only know what doctors have concluded."

    Like Steve Crecelius' doctors all of his life, right?

    "I only have facts to go on."

    Right. And the fact is that you don't actually have enough medical information to decide whether Bradley Manning is biologically intersex or not.

    @Girlse State--

    "Ok. What are they? "

    I already answered this. As I already told ute, in the majority of cases, gender can easily be differentiated just as Chris claims -- by physical appearance and/or chromosomal content. Most people conform to the expected norms.

    Things only get tricky around the "edges" -- with the various intersex conditions -- whether those conditions cause external or internal physical ambiguities, hormonal problems, or neurological changes. Those are the cases where gender assignment can be difficult -- or even meaningless, in some cases.

    The fact is that Chris has no idea whether Bradley Manning is biologically intersex or not -- so he has no support for his claim that Manning is definitively male. We don't even know if Manning is XY. We simply don't have enough information to decide.

    If I still haven't answered your question to your satisfaction, please feel free to ask more specific followups.

  • Girlse State Midvale, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 3:11 p.m.

    Contarious, Your examples of "intersex" are rare, but real. But if you can be honest I think will you admit this is a straw man argument just to "win" the argument against Chris is that right?

    If all you care about is catching Chris in his words, you two deserve each other. But the question of "What makes someone male/female" remains unanswered even as you spend all day trying to trap Chris. Your whole straw man seems to rely on the "intersex" people. But that breaks down when a person who physically is not on the "edges" of being "intersex" claims they are something opposite of what they are.

    Assume a man is not intersex or on the edge but calls himself a woman. That is where I agree with Chris. It is ludicrous to say each person just decides what they are, with ability to "change" whenever they want. Society deserves better than that. And yes, there are serious repercussions. If society is going to make important distinctions between the genders(And I can give you several if you refuse to consider them), one cannot just "decide" for themselves, with ability to change.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 26, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    Anyone who believes that manning is a woman is akin to someone who believes their neighbor when he says they have a investment opportunity that is guaranteed to return 20% annually!

    LOL

    What we do know in this case is that WITHIN his court case his lawyers brought up the fact he thought he was a woman.

    What they didn't bring up was any support from the medical community that he is a woman.

    Interesting. They know he THINKS he is a woman, and yet they didn't bring forth evidence he IS a woman.

    Let's consider the military's response even AFTER his claims that he now wants to be a woman.

    "He's enlisted as a male, he's a male, he'll be incarcerated as a male.

    So even after these claim, even after given the opportunity to have medical personal reassess his situation, it was AGAIN concluded by the medical community:

    "He's a male"

  • Contrariuserer mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 3:41 p.m.

    @Girlse State --

    "I think will you admit this is a straw man argument"

    You don't seem to understand what "straw man" really means.

    Chris claims that he somehow knows that Manning is "really male", and that Manning is "imagining" or "making up" this image of himself as female.

    I have pointed out three essential facts in return:

    1. There are many intersex conditions which render people not wholly female or male
    2. Chris has no access to Manning's medical records or other relative diagnostic work
    3. without those records or testing, Chris has no way of knowing whether Manning is biologically intersex or not.

    No straw man in sight.

    "It is ludicrous to say each person just decides what they are..."

    Fortunately, nobody here has made any such claim (your argument is a true straw man -- look it up. ;-) )

    I'm very carefully staying away from "purely" psychological cases -- in part because we don't actually know if there ARE any purely psychological cases with no biological components. Chris doesn't know whether there are any biological underpinnings to Manning's gender issues or not, so it is pointless to argue about cases that are purely psychological.

  • Contrariuserer mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 4:18 p.m.

    @Christopher.B --

    "What they didn't bring up was any support from the medical community that he is a woman."

    Why should they? Their argument hinged on his feelings, not on his body. It wouldn't matter to their case whether he had biological changes or not. They may not even have done testing themselves. Again, you don't have any access to his medical records.

    "he'll be incarcerated as a male."

    Yup.

    Just as Steve Crecelius joined his police force as a male, and served as a male.

    Nonetheless, Steve has ovaries and a uterus.

    Do a little research -- there's a fair number of known intersex people serving in male prisons, in addition to "other" transgenders.

    And, regrettably, LGBT/I are at **13 times** higher risk for sexual assault than other prisoners, according to the National Institute of Corrections.

  • Contrariuserer mid-state, TN
    Aug. 26, 2013 5:22 p.m.

    A few more facts about Gender Identity Disorder (GID):

    1. GID has been connected to multiple biological factors such as genetics, changes in brains structure, and prenatal exposure to hormones. (see, for example, "Gender identity disorder in twins: a review of the case report literature")

    2. GID may occur as frequently as 1 in 500 people. (see "Prevalence, incidence and sex ratio of transsexualism")

    3. Most people diagnosed with GID identify experience gender dysphoria before puberty.

    4. Twin studies indicate that GID is 62% heritable, and therefore has a strong genetic influence. (see "The Heritability of Gender Identity Disorder in a Child and Adolescent Twin Sample")

    5. In male-to-female transsexuals, GID is often associated with genetically-induced androgen insensitivity.

    6. Male-to-female transsexuals have been found to have a typically female stria terminalis (part of the brain), while female-to-male transsexuals have a typically male stria terminalis. (see "A sex difference in the human brain and its relation to transsexuality")

    7. In addition, the hypothalamus in male-to-female transsexuals appears to function as a typical woman's does. (see "Male-to-Female Transsexuals Show Sex-Atypical Hypothalamus Activation When Smelling Odorous Steroids")

  • Girlse State Midvale, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    Mental illnesses are very real things. Just as there are people whose minds tell them incorrect things(that they are non-human beings, that people are after them) there are people who either by their own desires or from purely mental problems think they are of the gender they are not. Just as there is typically zero biological evidence of a person who thinks he is an non-human(yes this mental disorder exits) of him truly being a non-human, there is generally zero biological evidence of a gender being "wrong"

    There are good reasons that societies classify people into male and female subcategories. With that said, Chris is right that there needs to be a way to differentiate between men and women. Society has a long established definition that is widely accepted and supported. The fact that this definition has remained unchanged for perhaps tens of thousands of years supports the quality of the definition and the benefits of this definition.

    Mr. Manning faces a steep hill if he wishes to change this definition. But as Chris states, Manning's supporters have yet to offer a new definition. Chris, enjoy it. You wont find my support often.

  • Contrariusest Nashville, TN
    Aug. 27, 2013 10:40 a.m.

    @Girlse State --

    "there is generally zero biological evidence of a gender being "wrong""

    You are completely ignoring my previous post about GID, and all of my earlier posts about intersex conditions.

    There is actually mounds of evidence that both GID and intersex conditions are biologically based. Refer to my earlier posts for a reality check.

    "There are good reasons that societies classify people into male and female subcategories."

    Sure -- and nobody here has claimed anything different (IOW, you've stated another straw man).

    "there needs to be a way to differentiate between men and women."

    And, of course, there **are** ways which work just fine for the majority of people -- but not for all.

    "this definition has remained unchanged for perhaps tens of thousands of years"

    Actually, some societies have had definitions for *multiple* sexes for thousands of years -- and some continue to do so.

    "Mr. Manning faces a steep hill if he wishes to change this definition."

    Yet another straw man. Manning doesn't actually want to change the definition for society as a whole.

    Manning simply wants to better fit himself to the definition that his brain and body are telling him he belongs in.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:35 a.m.

    It is worth noting that Bradley's lawyers had ample time to collect information that supports his desires to be a woman and belief that he is a woman.

    They even presented this information(at least what they could find) in court, deeming it relevant.

    If someone can present facts they have ovaries that would be a factor to consider that they may be female.

    If someone can present evidence they have XX Chromosomes they may be a factor indicating they may be female

    If someone can present facts they lack certain male organs that may be indicative they may be a female

    If someone can present evidence they do not have XY Chromosomes that may be indicative they are female.

    Certainly his lawyers had access to the best and brightest in the medical world as part of his defense.

    And what did they come up with to present as "evidence" he is a female:

    He likes to wear a wig and lipstick.

    That's it.

    If time after time after time the scientific method comes back with the same results, do you know what is concluded?

    It's a fact. Male.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 11:38 a.m.

    I have presented the clear definition that society uses to distinguish between men and women.

    One may not like the definition, but it is still the definition in use by both the medical community AND the general public.

    Just ask any young child who has had the birds and the bees talk, even they know.

    It IS the definition used by society today.

    If one does not like the definition, such as Bradley, he is free to suggest to the world that we re-write society's laws(both formal and informal).

    And yet he still doesn't want to provide one.

    Because he knows he's a male.

  • Contrariusest Nashville, TN
    Aug. 27, 2013 12:31 p.m.

    @Christopher.B --

    "Bradley's lawyers had ample time to collect information that supports his desires... "

    Unfortunately, many of these biological changes require specialized testing -- and some of them, like the changes in brain structure found in GID, can't be detected at all until after death (since they require brain dissection).

    "That's it."

    Nope.

    You haven't read the trial transcripts, the medical records, OR the psychological records.

    You don't actually have *any* of the most essential facts about his GID. All you have is one or two sensationalized newspaper articles, plus a whole bunch of unfounded guesswork.

    "I have presented the clear definition that society uses..."

    Actually, you haven't. But that's okay -- we agree that MOST people fit the "male/female" categories just fine. It is only the edges that get fuzzy. Unfortunately, Manning is obviously one of those fuzzy edges.

    "he is free to suggest to the world that we re-write society's laws...."

    Straw man.

    Manning isn't trying to change society's laws. He is simply trying to fit in better with the category that his brain and body are telling him he ought to be in.

  • Christopher.B Salt Lake, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 1:48 p.m.

    We have zero evidence manning is in any sort of fuzzy edge between male and female.

    He's on the edge because.....

    he says so?

    Unfortunately I live in reality where saying something doesn't make it so.

    People can hide behind the "we don't know if its purely philological" but there is just as much evidence I am a piano as there is that Bradley is a woman.

    Worth pointing out that neither manning nor his lawyers are currently making any attempt to send him to a female prison.

    Why? They know he's a man.

    If he truly were a female, or even on the "edge" its obvious they would prove that to the military court and send him to a female prison.

    And yet they made no push to send him to a female prison?

    Interesting.

    I guess they figured a picture wearing a wig and lipstick weren't enough to convince a military court of one's gender?

    Smart judge.

    He wasn't fooled.

  • Christoph b Salt lake, UT
    Aug. 27, 2013 2:22 p.m.

    I was reading today elsewhere on the news about the Munchausen syndrome, where people make up medical conditions to get attention.

    Sometimes people even truly begin to believe they have the ailments they have made up.

    I couldn't help but notice the similarities between those people and people who make false claims about their gender.

    Typically in these cases the people don't have sinister motives.

    They simply are confused individuals who either do it for the attention, or because their minds tell them things that simply are not true.

    This is where the medical profession can be of assistance.

    If someone says they have cancer and yet no doctors find cancer, in nearly all certainty they do not have cancer.

    I don't think Bradley has sinister motives here. He's confused.

    Even though he claims to be a woman, all medical evidence(both past and current) point to the fact he is a man.

    Even he seems to inwardly admit this as he talks about "treatments" he wants.

    If he truly was a woman, what would there be to change? And if he's changing something, what is it that makes him a man that needs changing?

  • Contrariusest Nashville, TN
    Aug. 27, 2013 3:53 p.m.

    @Christopher.B --

    "We have zero evidence..."

    Not true.

    According to court testimony, Manning was diagnosed with GID by two separate psychiatrists. The first diagnosis came while he was still in Iraq, before the leaks occurred.

    In fact, according to the psychiatrists' testimonies, Manning has been experiencing gender dysphoria since childhood. He is also known to have spent R and R periods -- at least one -- living as a woman, before the leaks or arrest.

    And we know from multiple research studies that GID is associated with genetic and biologic changes, including changes to brain structures and functions.

    Incidentally, he was also diagnosed by both psychiatrists with fetal alcohol syndrome -- which doesn't directly relate to gender, but does strengthen the biological basis behind his current problems.

    "Unfortunately I live in reality where saying something doesn't make it so."

    That includes you. Just saying that Manning is making things up or imagining things doesn't make it true.

    GID is a real problem, and it has real biological causes. Some of those causes are more obvious than others -- and some of them can't be diagnosed until after you're dead.

    Welcome to reality, Chris.

  • Christoph b Salt lake, UT
    Aug. 28, 2013 9:27 a.m.

    There is big difference between "gender" and "gender identity"

    We have evidence Bradley "thinks" he is a woman or "wants" to be a woman.

    What is lack is any evidence he IS a woman.

    Big difference.

    Big big difference.

    Those in the BLTG community often point to doctors diagnosing people as having a "gender identify disorder" as "evidence"

    But these medical professionals who diagnose a gender identify disorder have only diagnosed that that individual has a disorder.

    Specifically, that they THINK they are a gender they are not.

    Whenever a doctor diagnosis a gender identify disorder it is further proof that person is just very confused.

    Bradley has been diagnosed as "thinking" or "wishing" he were a girl

    What he HASN'T been diagnosed as,

    is a woman.

  • Contrariusest Nashville, TN
    Aug. 28, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    @Christoph b --

    "There is big difference between "gender" and "gender identity""

    If you transplant a female brain into a male body, is the resulting person male or female?

    If your brain was transplanted into a woman's body, would you still be a man? Would you still perceive yourself as a man?

    That is more or less what transsexuals are. Some of them have additional biological changes throughout the body as well, as they move along the intersex spectrum -- like Steve Crecelius, for instance.

    "Whenever a doctor diagnosis a gender identify disorder it is further proof that person is just very confused."

    As I've already told you multiple times, GID can be associated with genetic, hormonal, *and* neurological changes. That isn't "just confusion" -- it's biology.

  • Christoph b Salt lake, UT
    Aug. 28, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    Do we know why the military judicial system has made a HUGE mistake and put a "woman" in the men's prison facilities?

    Surely along the way there is a system in place to make sure men go to men's facilities and women go to women's facilities?

    It's not exactly rocket science figuring out male from female.

    No doubt Bradley had great lawyers. Though not medical professionals themselves, they certainly would protect a female client from being put in a male prison facility.

    His parents are likewise aware he is in a male prison facility. And they have not told the courts their son is actually a "female".

    His military commanders know he's going to a male facility.

    And they have not told the courts the guy is actually a female".

    It comes back to the court's conclusion(after hearing "evidence" of wigs and lipstick that he was a woman):

    "You enlisted as a male, you're a male, you're going to be incarcerated as a male."

    The reason he's incarcerated as a male?

    And I quote:

    "You're a male"

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Aug. 28, 2013 4:33 p.m.

    @Christoph b --

    "Do we know why the military judicial system has made a HUGE mistake and put a "woman" in the men's prison facilities?"

    The judicial system isn't organized to deal with the folks on the edges.

    There are already a fair number of known intersex people in men's prisons around the country. Stevie Crecelius would also go to a men's prison if convicted of a crime, despite the uterus and ovaries.

    Notably, though, civilian prison systems often *will* provide hormone treatment for their transsexual inmates.

    "His parents are likewise aware he is in a male prison facility. And they have not told the courts their son is actually a "female"."

    LOL!!

    It's very clear that you haven't read the court transcripts. Manning's parents are both career drunks. His father left the family when Bradley was something like 10 years old, and his mother moved back to Wales around 10 years ago. They couldn't care less.

    You haven't answered my question, Chris.

    I'll ask again.

    If your brain were transplanted into a woman's body, would you be male or female? Would you still identify as a man?

  • Christoph b Salt lake, UT
    Aug. 30, 2013 9:51 a.m.

    Can you imagine if we lived in a world where what someone said was taken from truth.

    Look no further than manning's current residence. Most people in prison say they are innocent.

    Does that mean that the judicial process should include asking someone if they are innocent or guilty and then taking what they say as the truth?

    No.

    How is it determined?

    We look at facts.

    Does not mean a mistake has never been made in the judicial system, no.

    We always look at all facts available and make a conclusion based on those facts.

    In fact quite often people say they are innocent, but the facts show otherwise.

    Though certainly not illegal to say you are a woman when you are a man, it is a good comparison.

    Should we believe manning is a woman just because he says he is?

    No.

    We look at the facts.

    If he can present facts he is a woman they will be considered.

    But all facts indicate he is a man.

  • Contrariusester mid-state, TN
    Aug. 30, 2013 10:04 a.m.

    @Christoph b --

    "We look at facts."

    If only you would follow your own advice.

    ;-)

    "We always look at all facts available and make a conclusion based on those facts."

    You haven't actually looked at any of the essential facts in this case, Chris.

    You haven't read the medical reports.
    You haven't read the psych reports.
    You haven't even bothered to read the court transcripts -- even though they are freely available on the net.

    You haven't bothered to look at ANY facts. You've just made things up as you go.

    That's especially telling, given how you excoriated people during the Zimmerman case when you thought they weren't doing enough to find out the actual facts of the case.

    Shame.

    Look up the word "hypocrisy".

    And in the meantime, you STILL haven't answered my question.

    It should be an easy question to answer.

    If your brain were transplanted into a woman's body, would you be male or female? Would you still identify as a man?

  • Christofer B Salt Lake, UT
    Sept. 5, 2013 10:32 a.m.

    Should we let anyone out of jail who says they are innocent(even though facts and evidence proved otherwise)?

    No.

    Should we treat any man like a woman(even though facts and evidence proved otherwise) simply because he wants to be a woman?

    No

    Does this mean the judicial system has never made an error?

    No.

    But we do our best with the data available.

    The only data available for Bradley is that he's a man.

    Multiple medical professionals with a better understanding of male/female than Bradley have all said he is male.

    I know he wants to be a woman.

    But he's not.

    I'm still waiting on any evidence he is a woman?

    And yet no one can provide anything?

    And so we continue with the countless medical experts who unanimously came to the same conclusion:

    male.