The Senate has the power to amend the house bill and strip it of its
anti-obamacare provisions and send it back to the house with everything in
obamacare fully funded and then the house would be forced to vote on that
version. If they didn't vote it wouldn't be the Democrats
that shut down the government it would be the Republicans fault and the polls
already show that. And this time all employees including Military personnel
would NOT get a pay check October 1st and you would have millions of military
families who can't go to the commissary to buy food!I support
liberty but this idea by Mike Lee is plain dim-witted!
Sabotaging the bill (cutting off funding doesn't get rid of the law, it
just eliminates the subsidies to help the lower middle class pay for health
insurance) is electoral suicide for Republicans. That's why Lee isn't
getting support in his party. Polls show 40% support it vs 55% oppose (around 5%
are undecided). However around 12% of people oppose it due to it not being
liberal enough. Those people don't like Lee's plan, they just want
single payer or a public option.
"A recent national survey show " Two thirds oppose funding the
Affordable Care Act" What is t he source please?
With respect, the ACA is about as far from "socialism" as any
comprehensive healthcare can be. It relies on a very capitalist insurance
industry. If anything, it brings them more customers. Most parts of it were
based on Conservative ideas (including the Heritage Foundation), most mirror
what Gov. Romney did in Massachusetts and touted as a model for a national
solution. Richard Nixon proposed a plan back in the 1970s that was far more
"socialist" than anything President Obama could ever come up with.The ACA is far from ideal, but is far better than a system in which
millions go without protection until they need it, and then we all end up paying
for it anyway. I'd rather a system like one of the many in other
post-industrialized nations (several of which I have experienced first hand),
but the ACA is a good start.
“The House has voted 40 times to repeal . . . All such votes died with
Sen. Harry Reid” And the little fact that the Senate has a majority of
Democrats.“The ruling was manipulated and wrong. The Supreme
Court failed to protect citizens from bad legislation.” Okay. But this
is the most conservative court in my lifetime. If you can’t get what you
want from them you probably just can’t get what you want (cue the Rolling
Stones).Constitutional government is deteriorating . . . government
policies and activities . . . circumvent basic rights and liberties (e.g., NSA
spying, IRS scandal, FBI reporters). At the crux of it all is Obamacare.
It's the Trojan horse that will push the country toward socialism and
economic collapse.” Wow. Obamacare gave us NSA spying? Really? This is
beyond hyperbole.And the “solution” is to shut down the
govt.? You can take your chances and it may play well with the most
conservative part of the base, but you can kiss off the presidency and probably
a few more senate seats (Republicans might no longer have 40% to stop a cloture
vote).Careful what you ask for.
Fact - the current trajectory of health care costs is not sustainable as people
get older and move to medicare. It is our single biggest deficit issue moving
forward.So, logic would say that SOMETHING must be done. Is that
Obamacare? I certainly think there are better options.The GOP has
consistently said REPEAL and REPLACE. They have thrown out some tidbits here
and there (insurance across state lines, tort reform) but have not produced
ANYTHING that we can look at and critique. WHY? WHY? WHY?You want
the American people behind repealing Obamacare? Give us a SPECIFIC plan that
can be scrutinized and debated, point by point.Enough of the
platitudes. Show us SPECIFICS. Back them up with logic. I am
willing to listen and would be open. But, there has yet to be anything to
debate.Either that, or stage another useless house vote that wastes
time and money and accomplishes NOTHING.
"The sky has fallen, the sky has fallen".Oh, wait, I have
the story backwards.
If defunding ObamaCare is political suicide for the Republicans, you would think
that every Democrat would want that bill to pass. You would think that Reid
would demand that the Republicans defund ObamaCare. You would think that the
President would campaign to have the Republicans defund ObamaCare. But, it is
the Democrats who will lose IF ObamaCare is funded. It is the Democrats who
will lose when working Americans see a larger percentage of their income going
to the government for "health-care" than they (and their employer) now
pay for Social Security.Obama lied about the cost of ObamaCare. He
lied about the non-existant savings for every family. He lied about the number
of people who would be covered. He lied about pre-existing conditions. He lied
about people being able to keepd their current plans and their current doctors.
He lied about every part of ObamaCare. Now he wants to delay the implementation
of ObamaCare until after the 2014 Election. If ObamaCare offered anything of
benefit, he would want it fully in place before the election. He would want the
Democrats to get full benefit. He messed up - and now he's
running away from ObamaCare.
How did the conservative right get in this desperate situation? Is the next step
after civil disobedience of law starting civil war? Trying to bring down our
economy and government is un-American.
"If defunding ObamaCare is political suicide for the Republicans, you would
think that every Democrat would want that bill to pass."No,
because reasonable people understand a lot more is at stake than partisan
bragging rights. Even Senator Lee has backed away from shutting down the
government. With troops oversees... to pull resources away from them to prove a
political point would put their lives directly in harms way.And then
the so called 40 votes... The Senate is not standing in the way of this. Even
if Republicans had the same level of support in the Senate, it still isn't
by veto proof margins. Instead of over the top grandstanding comments, spend
just a fraction of this energy to fix those things that are wrong with the
Affordable Care Act. Do something productive for once.
USA has a medical system that is broken, when an uninsured person gets medial
care now the rest of the country is on the hook financially for it. Obamacare
is not percect but it holds people accountable. When everyone has insurance the
government (you and I) will continue to help them but the numbers will be known.
In the current system the numbers of uninsured is hazy and each month can be
different. The government needs to know what to budget for.Obamacare has holes and deficiencies but it does allow the country to come up
with a hard number of those who will be needing assistance.Socialism
is like a bad word, but this country already enjoys socialism in education.
When our house catches fire the socialistic firemen show up, when we see a crime
committed we call the socialistic policemen. We drive on roads that are
government funded, past utiltiies that are government mandated.Get
beyond your fears and look around you. The country is on a crash course and
Obamacare will put it off for years. Nobody seems comfortable enough with
change to fix it
Shutting down the government would protect liberty? Are you for
real?The GOP battle cry these days seems to be, "We must destroy
America in order to save it."Which is precisely why fewer and
fewer Americans take these guys seriously.The Conservative bubble is
shrinking rapidly. Fine by me.
Rather than have a Tea Party government, I would prefer a shutdown and
reorganization of America. I wonder who the new national government over Utah
will be. Mexico is probably a top contender with China as No. 2 choice. While
it probably won’t be better for the general population of Utah, it
can’t get much worse. At the age of 78 and with most of my
children and grandchildren already on the rocks, it doesn’t seem to
Because Obama has spent well over $5,000,000,000,000 more than he has, Congress
must act. Communist China controls us because it controls our purse. China
will decide what happens to America if Senator Lee is ignored.We
cannot pay the government another 18% to 24% from the private sector without
destroying this country. The stock market needs capital from insurance
companies or it will collapse. If it collapses, all retirement funds will be
destroyed. Those who don't understand how the premiums from insurance are
invested would know nothing about the consequences of taking that money out of
the private sector. Obama will spend all of that money on his
friends, just as he has spent every available dime on his friends since he has
taken office. He has nothing to show for spending us into bankruptcy.Shut down all spending until the government agrees to abide by the
Constitution.The Court ruled that ObamaCare is a tax. It is the
largest tax ever levied on Americans. It will not improve health-care because
it is not going to be used for health-care. Obama will mix it with the general
fund.Follow the money!
@Mike RichardsAnd if the government is shut down, payments to
medical providers through medicare/medicaid would stop and states would be
unable to pay the bills for their portion of medicaid. Hospitals would scream
for cash because 50-70% of hospitals recieve most of their revenues (about 75%
or more) from Medicare/medicaid and some might not be able to operate. Many
companies revenues who have government contracts for military or other needs
would post significant losses from the shutdown and valuations all over the
market would feel a ripple effect and speed us down another recession.Obamacare sucks and is not based on capitalistic principles. But there will
come a time to defund and replace it but we don't hold the power to do
Beckham has it right. With a majority of Americans wanting Obamacare to
disappear, an outright repeal would not pass the senate so the only alternative
is to withhold any funding for the program, include all other funding in the
bill. If the senate and the administration choose to not accept the bill, then
they are ones that are 'shutting down the government'.It
is the right thing to do for the country.
"If defunding ObamaCare is political suicide for the Republicans, you would
think that every Democrat would want that bill to pass. You would think that
Reid would demand that the Republicans defund ObamaCare. You would think that
the President would campaign to have the Republicans defund
ObamaCare. "The Democrats are interested in enacting
legislation they feel is necessary for the good of the country and is the
centerpiece of the president's domestic agenda. They will pass up an
opportunity to let the Republicans spin the rope to hang themselves with in
order to allow ACA to go into effect.But thank you for projecting
what passes for Republican core values these days and demonstrating the scorched
earth, "play my way or I take the ball home" playground mentality that
the Far Right has adopted lately. It's an easy substitute for having to
come up with real alternatives.
Here's the difference between conservatives and liberals: conservatives are
willing to shut down the gov't to keep people from getting health care.
Liberals like me were all for shutting down the gov't to prevent our
country from bombing and killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis in a cruel,
unprovoked war on behalf of the oil companies. I'm proud to be a liberal.
First, the ACA is absolutely constitutional. I don't know what 'the
Supreme Court was manipulated means,' but they did rule, and their ruling
was valid. Second of all, it hasn't been implemented yet. Once it is, it
will be very popular, enough so that it won't be an issue in the next
Presidential campaign. And third of all, Mike Lee is just throwing a tantrum.
China has 8% of the US debt.... the US government itself is the highest holder
of its own debt... not China. I admire you enthusiasm.... but some of the facts
you are using just doesn't hold water. Insurance companies do invest huge
amounts of money into the markets, but they are far from the prime movers of
market value when it comes to equities. You really need to validate
your sources. And remember... I know you want to blame Obama for the
spending... but Obama doesn't control the purse. In all your
constitutional reading, that should have become painfully clear. He
doesn't create the budget. He doesn't pass the budget. He only
spends what congress tells he to. The buck literally stops there.
What the Republicans should do is just reduce the funding, not totally eliminate
it. The Senate returns the bill to the House with full funding. The
Republicans in the House then fund the Obamacare that the Senate sent back, but
with a MUCH lower amount of money than the Senate wants. That way, the Senate
would get the bill back and be stuck with it, or send it back to the House with
total funding restored. This back and forth would equalize the responsibility.
And if the Senate relented, the House will have saved billions by not having
funded all of Obamacare. So instead of an all or nothing approach, like Lee
wants, the Republicans should let Obamacare wither on the vine with less
funding, but still not leave themselves being accused of no funding. However,
even if the Republicans win the battle, the mainstream news media will run
stories about people dying in the streets due to no health care available. And
the dummies in America will believe it.
Obamacare allows for any state to design their own plan that covers at least as
many people and is no more expensive than Obamacare, if they do that they can
bail out of Obamacare. Only Vermont (to get single payer) has done that. Since
Obamacare isn't going anywhere until 2017 at minimum (and later if Clinton
runs and wins) then you're going to have to pick from some options.1.
Whining for years (you know... the status quo).2. Passing bills that seek
not to eliminate Obamacare but to fix things with it that could improve it. 3. Defund it (doesn't actually stop the bill, only makes everyone more
miserable since the subsidies they'd get aren't funded... you're
also directly sabotaging the bill so everything that goes wrong is now your
fault). 4. Get your state to make its own plan. The fact nobody has gone
this route other than the socialists in Vermont is proof that Republicans have
no real alternative other than continuing to let insurance companies get rich
(if there is a real plan than show it, it can't be Romneycare since
Republicans hate that now).
The Court did not rule that ObamaCare is legal. It ruled that ObamaCare is a
tax and that Congress has authority to tax us. It did not rule on the legality
of that tax because that tax had not been implemented. Damages caused by that
tax could not be shown, so the Court could not be involved. Those who claim
that ObamaCare was authorized by the Supreme Court have not read the
decision.If the Government were shut down, would medicare stop?
Would the military stop? Would any agency or program stop? Of course not.
That is just hogwash from the Democrats to scare the ignorant. The government
would issue I.O.U.s that would be redeemed for all services rendered.We can see how Obama has used "government shutdown" to harass us. He
tried to strand us at airports - while he flew around the Country in his
"private jet". He shut down access to the White House, while he and his
family traveled to exotic places.He cares nothing for the people.
He will do anything to inconvenience us. It's time to take
away his credit card. He can't manage money.
Second requestWhat is the source of "Two thirds of the country
oppose funding Obama Car"?I would really like to know who
conducted this poll and when? Is it a valid polling company?
To "Linguist" actually the ACA is more of a fascist system. It is
socialism with a capitalist veneer. The ACA even has some profit sharing
between insurance companies.To "JoeBlow" here is a real
soution, with logic and evidence to back it up.1. Cut the number of
government mandates. Currently 20% to 50% of the cost of insurance is due
directly to government mandates, now that is probably even higher. See
"HEALTH INSURANCE MANDATES IN THE STATES" written by the Council for
Affordable Health Insurance.2. Make it harder to file malpractic
lawsuits. See "Medical Malpractice and Access to Care" in Emergency
Physicians Monthly.3. Get government out of the health insurance
business. Medicare wastes as much if not more money than private companies do
to fraud. That, and the overhead for getting money through the government
system is 20% to 30%.To "Doug10" you are wrong, only when an
ininsured person who has no means of paying for care goes to an emergency room
does the state or federal government pick up the tab.
"The government would issue I.O.U.s that would be redeemed for all services
rendered."Ummmm.... those IOUs..... thats called money. It
isn't fully fledged currency, why don't you go and try to buy
groceries, for fuel your care with an IOU. If you are a business, how about
trying to make payroll with your source of income being IOUs. The
government has been running on continuing extensions of a many years old budget.
With no continuing extension of the budget, the government has no
authorization to spend any money, issues IOUs, or take on debt. It pretty much
excludes funding the government via IOUs. That is debt.... paint in any color
Brandon,Do you know how our health care system stacks up in
comparison to other industrialized nations? I have spend my entire professional
life working/living overseas or traveling overseas on business. It does a person
a world of good to see how the rest of the world works. I can tell you first
hand that nothing is so twisted as the US health care system we are trying to
In my earlier post, I forgot to ask, What "liberty" does the author
suggest we protect? - The one to deny coverage to people?
RedShirt: "See HEALTH INSURANCE MANDATES IN THE STATES written by the
Council for Affordable Health Insurance."Sure, because an
article critical of insurance industry reform, written by the "the Council
for Affordable Health Insurance," an insurance industry public relations and
lobbying group, would offer an accurate and unbiased perspective in this
Ok Red,I checked out your links and here is what I foundAccording to your article Mandates vary greatly by state. Meaning that they
are state mandates rather than federal mandates. They ranged from 13 mandates
to 70 mandates depending on the state. I thought state control is what those on
the right wanted to see. Concerning Malpractice and tort reform -
ALSO state issues, not federal. Tort reform can, and has been undertaken by
some states. Check out Texas for example.Concerning Medicare, there
is certainly fraud and waste. Some by patients and some by providers. However,
I sincerely doubt that medicare would be cheaper if it was handled entirely by
private corporations.I think we all have good ideas. Yours are
worth looking into. But, Until you become a GOP legislator and propose
specific legislation, my statements stand.The GOP has said NO to any
legislation but have NOT produced anything available for consideration. High
level Ideas cannot be scrutinized. Specific legislation can.
To "Blue" think of it as a Climage Change Paper funded by governments
who want to implement carbon taxes. You wouldn't be against that, so why
be concerned with this.I also notice that you can't refute the
claims. There are other studies out there that have found similar things.Your lack of ability to refute the claims only shows that they must be
true.To "JoeBlow" we do want state control, but even the
states have it wrong on this issue.The tort reform would be most
effective if enacted at a federal level, rather than at a state level. However,
I do agree that the states that really want to fix things can do so by enacting
The U.S. Congressional Budget Office (CBO) has reported that the additional
costs of mandated insurance benefits are modest. The CBO estimated that the
marginal costs (i.e. the total costs of compliance for those health plans that
did not previously offer the benefit) for five of the most expensive mandated
health benefits—including requirements to cover mental health and
substance abuse treatment—would increase premiums anywhere from 0.28 to
1.15 %. If a woman (and others) forgoe necessary health care because
it is not covered by her insurance policy, her/his health problems are likely to
become more complex and more costly in the future. In contrast, when coverage of
a health service is mandated by law and is thus included in a woman’s
health policy, she is more likely to seek the appropriate care in a timely
manner, saving costs in addition to improving her health and well-being.
Does the author have any qualifications other than being a Republican zealot
anxious to prevent an attack on his seat from even further Right? Just
Re: "Legal minds"Like Brandon and the legal minds that he
mentioned, I too am upset at all those who have trampled on our constitutional
rights in pursuit of Obamacare.First, it was the U.S. Senate, which
passed the bill by a comfortable margin. Then, it was the House by a slim
majority. Then it was that Obama fellow, who signed it enthusiastically. After
that, a majority of the Supreme Court upheld it. But that's not the worse
part: The worse thing is that since it passed in 2010, most of the people who
supported Obamacare in Congress, along with the Kenyan* Obama, have been
re-elected. It's enough to make a person want to move to Canada . . . well,
on second thought, I guess they have universal health care up there, so forget
that idea.*Don't argue with me about this. Trump said
Obama's from Kenya. That's good enough for me.
Mark B,Farther on the Right than Mike Lee?
As well as the economy.
re:MikeRichards"The Court ruled that ObamaCare is a tax. It is the
largest tax ever levied on Americans."Factcheck:"There’s no way the ACA’s tax and other revenue increases come
close to being the largest in U.S. history."Politifact:"Neumann said "Obamacare" is the biggest tax increase in American
history."But even the article he uses as evidence states flatly
that the health care reform law is not the biggest, and that to cite raw
dollars, as Neumann does, is misleading. More reliable measures put the law
among the largest tax hikes, but not at the top.We rate
Neumann’s statement False."
I'm with Irony Guy. I want to shut down the government the next time they
try to sell us the weapons of mass destruction myth riding around Iraq in 18
wheelers or our nation building in Afghanistan or when they pass a Gulf of
Tonkin resolution. Or maybe to upend the Patriot Act. But not really. We have
other means to avoid these again (newspapers do their job, electorate require
proof next time, we stand up against fear mongering). But I am not
for shutting down the government for the only plan out there to help fellow
citizens needing healthcare. If the GOP has another plan, then let's look
at it. But then, we all know that the ACA is really the GOP plan that uses
private insurance companies rather than a single payer (think Romneycare).
Republicans need to Replace and Repeal or get out of the way.
@Truthseeker,Not the largest TAX? How do you figure? Social
Security is about 15% with no deductions or exemptions allowed. ObamaCare is
about 18% to 24% with no deductions or exemptions allowed. All normal income
tax allows deductions, credits and exemptions. The top tax rate in America
allows deductions, credits and exemptions. ObamaCare does not. It takes the
money right off the top. Corporate taxes are not nearly as high as ObamaCare
when deductions and credits are computed. It takes the money before you can
deduct mortgage expenses, college expenses, charity expenses, handicap expenses,
property tax expenses or any other "normal expenses" allowed on Schedule
A. Obama wants YOUR money. He doesn't care that most people can't
afford to buy health insurance at a lower rate from their health-care providers.
He will sell you HIS health-care insurance at HIS price and YOU won't have
a choice in the matter. It's HIS program and he will ramrod that program
down your throat no matter what you want or what you think.
@TruthseekerWe all know that Mike Richards doesn't care about
facts. He is more concerned about spinning facts to prove his own narrow view
of politics, life and religion. Politifact is a great source that
calls on the carpet both Democrats and Republicans when they distort the facts.
Ultra Bob wants to get rid of the Constitution.
Mike... this is where this whole thing gets spun out of control. You keep
saying there are new dollars being spent. But the reality is that we are
already covering these uninsured via a shadow medical cost structure. When they
show up at the emergency room door for help, they get service. The cost of
those visits doesn't go away into the ether. We already pay those cost
via higher insurance rates for the insured. It is odd to me that
the same crowd who runs around complaining the 47 percent doesn't pay
taxes, and that they need to......at the same time is willing to let a large
portion of society pay for those who don't have insurance, and doesn't
want to make these uninsured cover their own cost. In both scenarios one
portion of society is paying the cost indirectly for another portion of society
that cant or chooses not to pay.And yet, the conservative stances is
to force everyone to pay some tax.... but not be required to pay their medical
cost coverage. Doesn't make sense to me. Inconsistent.
"When they show up at the emergency room door for help, they get service.
"Exactly right Devil. And that bill (emtala) was signed by none
other than Ronald Reagan.Can you say MANDATE..
I wish Mr. Richards would be specific and clear regarding his ACA tax
assertions. First of all who is going to be taxed (by not saying it implies we
all will pay extra taxes for ACA). Secondly where do his percentage claims come
from and how do they compare to a companies ability to re-coup the tax in
premiums (he goes on and on about how no deductions are allowed, so what if you
can re-coup the monies). Statements like Mr. Richards have been the
basis for wild claims for the past 4 years that premiums would sky-rocket
(Insurance companies re-couping taxs). The facts don't support those
claims even though insurance company taxes have been in effect for two years.
Rates for 2014 are out now and I'm still waiting for the Republicans to use
skyrocketing rates as the hammer to defund Obamacare. Instead we're left
with arguments like Obama is going to take all the money and give it to his
friends. Do you guys ever listen to yourselves?
Those who believe the ACA is constitutional haven't read the Constitution,
nor understood it. The FEDS have no authority here. and the ACA should be
nullified by every Liberty Loving State in the Union. If it's
not an enumerated power, then its not Constitutional.
@hoggityboo -- Somehow I think the US Supreme Court may know a little more about
the Constitution than you do.
"Brandon Beckham is a member of Republican State Central Committee and a
precinct chairman from Orem." And more than likely, a good friend of Mike
Lee. What a surprise.