Quantcast
Opinion

Letters: Words matter

Comments

Return To Article
  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 8:05 a.m.

    I'm a live and let live kinda guy. I nor for or ageist any thing. I have my opinion's about Jesus, I think He had a good idea. I think that it was a good idea for the 12 apostles to resurrect his idea. You mater that's the Spirit of things. Sad how religions can be so self righteous.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 3, 2013 8:59 a.m.

    The current trend in Russia is horrifying. Of course, Putin is doing it for political reasons -- to distract attention from his failures and to make himself look like some sort of hero to the ultra-religious -- but he is destroying real lives while he does it.

    I don't know what response would be appropriate from other countries. Would an Olympic boycott help anything? I don't know. Would US government trade sanctions help? I don't know. But it sure seems as though SOMETHING should be done to protest these gross human rights violations.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 11:06 a.m.

    "They prefer to tear down that type of family and replace it with a counterfeit "family".

    Totally bogus.

    No one wants to "tear down" anyone's family. The goal is to let same-sex couple's enjoy the same benefits of family life that you take for granted. Why do you want to "tear down" the families of same-sex couples?

    Many gay couples already do have families - they just seek an end to the type of bigotry and irrationality that your comment exemplifies.

    Same-sex couples can and do adopt children, and keep their own kids from their previous marriages after they "come out," and have proven to be every bit as fit and loving as parents as any other couple.

    Putin is resorting to a standard, time-honored demagogue's ploy: When your own job performance is tanking, redirect the public's anger onto a minority or an obscure non-issue. There are always enough rubes to fall for it so that you can hang on to your job a little while longer.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 3, 2013 12:49 p.m.

    @Mike Richards --

    "Russia is a soverign nation. It is not obligated to abide by the laws of any other nation."

    This is not quite true. The Geneva Convention and other UN treaties do indeed limit what sovereign nations can legally do, even within their own borders. Otherwise it would be much, MUCH more difficult to discourage genocide and other human rights violations without resorting to all-out warfare.

    "They prefer to tear down that type of family and replace it with a counterfeit "family". "

    Baloney.

    How does someone's gay marriage "tear down" anyone else's marriage? Please be specific.

    "Who's to say that the destruction of the family unit should be supported by the government. "

    Fortunately, nobody DOES say that.

    Mike -- Do you support mob violence against gay people? Do you support destroying their freedom of speech? Do you support imprisoning people just because of their sexual orientation?

    You don't need to believe in gay marriage to support basic concepts of human rights.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 1:31 p.m.

    So - which is it Mike?

    Live in gay free Russia?
    or
    America?

  • Gildas LOGAN, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 2:12 p.m.

    @LDS Liberal:

    You fielded a good question. Although that question was not addressed to me, I
    venture some thoughts. The question was whether someone would want to live
    in "gay free Russia" or in America.

    That is a choice, of course, and I think people of whichever persuasion would prefer to stay here and fight for their point of view in the USA.

    The choice of a certain Mr Snowden did not relate to homosexuality but he did choose to live in Russia
    rather than America. He'd very little choice of course and he would say that that was what it is all about.

    Somehow and to some extent at least, the roles of Russia and America seem to have strangely reversed since the inception of Soviet Communism when Russia, at least the old USSR dominated by Russia) seemed to care as little for morals as for freedom. Then it realized the value of its own social stability and promoted traditional marriage rather than social confusion, and wanted the West to be immoral because that made it weak.

    I'm confused as to whether this is still the program or whether something else is happening.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 3, 2013 8:38 p.m.

    Russia has the sovereign right to write its own laws. It does not need our permission or permission from the United Nations. Nothing that the United Nations "decrees" is binding on a sovereign nation unless that sovereign nation has agreed and "signed on" to the United Nations "decree".

    Russia has the sovereign right to decide what harms its society. It has the sovereign right to punish those who harm its society.

    Russia has the sovereign right to declare same-sex sex as harmful. It has the sovereign right to arrest and punish those who practice same-sex sex.

    Russia does not have to agree with anyone in the United States, or in any other country, about anything. It is a sovereign nation. Those who want to tell Russia how to write its laws can contact Russia directly and tell Russia what it should do.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Aug. 3, 2013 8:46 p.m.

    Re: "Please think deeply about the implications of all dangerous rhetoric."

    Agreed. Now, let's convince the activist leadership of the LGBT rights movement.

    Well-known LGBT activist Paula Ettelbrick noted, “Being [LGBT -- let's try that, instead of the language she actually used] is more than setting up house, sleeping with a person of the same gender, and seeking state approval for doing so. … Being [LGBT] means pushing the parameters of sex, sexuality, and family, and in the process, transforming the very fabric of society. … We must keep our eyes on the goal … of radically reordering society’s views of reality.”

    We should rightly fear the implications of the language used against Russian demonstrators. But why is it so hard for the LGBT community to understand that THEIR rhetoric is scary, too? The vast, vast majority of real people in this Nation don't want the parameters of sex, sexuality, and family pushed any farther than LGBT activists have already done.

    If they'd quit pushing, there'd be a lot less pushback.

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 3, 2013 10:22 p.m.

    @procuradorfiscal --

    "Well-known LGBT activist Paula Ettelbrick noted..."

    Ettelbrick died two years ago, and she made that statement TEN years ago.

    Considering that the anti-gay folks want us to forgive and forget homophobic statements that Orson Scott Card made LAST YEAR, can you really justify harping on something that's a decade old?

    @Mike --

    "Nothing that the United Nations "decrees" is binding on a sovereign nation unless that sovereign nation has agreed and "signed on" to the United Nations "decree"."

    And, indeed, Russia is a signatory to many UN treaties -- including the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

    You didn't answer my previous questions, so I'll ask again: Do you support mob violence against gay people? Do you support destroying their freedom of speech? Do you support imprisoning people just because of their sexual orientation?

  • Contrarius mid-state, TN
    Aug. 3, 2013 10:35 p.m.

    @Mike --

    I posted too quickly. I should have added these other human rights obligations. From wikipedia:

    ----------

    Russia is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and has also ratified a number of other international human rights instruments, including the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (fully) and the European Convention of Human Rights (with reservations).

    These international law instruments take precedence over national legislation according to Chapter 1, Article 15 of the Constitution.

    As a member of the Council of Europe Russia also has international obligations related to the issue of human rights.

    ----------

    So you see, Mike, Russia doesn't actually have the right to do whatever it feels like doing. There are international standards of human rights which Russia has agreed to uphold -- which even the Russian Constitution itself decrees must be upheld -- and which it is now violating.

    Oh also, I forgot to ask something else.

    In your previous message, you stated: "They prefer to tear down that type of family and replace it with a counterfeit "family". "

    I'll ask you again -- How does someone's gay marriage "tear down" anyone else's marriage? Please be specific.

  • George New York, NY
    Aug. 3, 2013 10:43 p.m.

    It has been amazing to see the sudden complete Meltdown of so many on the far right from blatant racism by so many to miles complete abandament of the counsel of the very religion he has welded as a weapon for so long on these pages.

  • George New York, NY
    Aug. 3, 2013 10:51 p.m.

    Sorry that was mike not miles.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 4:22 a.m.

    Look at the "bashing" going on from those who demand that all the world accept the same-sex sex agenda. Look at the posts that condemn anyone, including the country of Russia, who disagrees with their agenda. How do those who support same-sex sex ever expect rational people to agree with them when they bash anyone who does not agree with their agenda? Just read the accounts of the violence and vandalism that occurred after Prop-8 was passed by the voters in California. Re-read how they acted when a legal and lawful election decreed that marriage is between a man and a woman. Before complaining about how they are viewed, perhaps they should re-assess how they view others.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 4, 2013 12:55 p.m.

    @Mike --

    "How do those who support same-sex sex ever expect rational people to agree with them when they bash anyone who does not agree with their agenda?"

    Pro-gay opinions don't kill people. Anti-gay opinions do.

    I was living in Knoxville just a few years ago, when a man stormed into a Unitarian church there and **shot nine people** just because he hated "liberals, Democrats, blacks, and gays".

    Gay people in the US are still **eight times** more likely to be the victims of violent crimes than straight people.

    Another gay man was shot and killed in NYC in June -- **with** the shooter shouting gay slurs at him -- in yet another obvious hate crime.

    We see continuing violence against gays all over the world -- like those mobs in the country of Georgia that have been **led by priests**.

    In some countries, homosexuality is still **punishable by death**.

    And during the Prop 8 campaign, pro-gay-rights people were attacked as much as anti. And yes, pro-gay churches were vandalized, too.

    It's very clear which side has suffered from the vast majority of violent attacks. And it sure isn't the anti-gay forces.

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:15 p.m.

    Anti-gay bashers are no different from gay-bashers. Each get's his "justification" by finding fault with someone with whom he disagrees.

    Russia has decided that it will not tolerate the destruction of the traditional family; that it will not entertain arguments from gays; that it will not tolerate propaganda from gay activists; and that it will fully prosecute those whom it thinks have weakened its society. If you have an argument with Russia, then prove them wrong, but not by quoting gays who tell us that their actions do not weaken society. Those "spokesmen" have the same agenda as the gay judge in California who single-handedly decreed that only his opinion counted and that the results of the vote by the voters in California should be thrown out. He gave the gay movement a black-eye. Russia's opinion of that judge cannot be printed in this newspaper.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:18 p.m.

    @procuradorfiscal --

    I apologize. I told you that Ettelbrick quote was a decade old. Well, I finally got around to looking up the source of that quote, and I was wrong.

    It was actually published in **1989**. Nearly a quarter of a century ago.

    So -- how can anti-gay forces expect everyone to forget the homophobia of Card, which has continued well into the 21st century, when those same anti-gay forces still think that one 24-year-old quote defines the entire gay marriage movement of today??

    Hmmmmmmm.

    Also, you said:

    "The vast, vast majority of real people in this Nation don't want the parameters of sex, sexuality, and family pushed any farther than LGBT activists have already done."

    Actually, more than 50% of the voting-age American public now supports gay marriage, according to multiple nationwide polls. :-)

    @Mike --

    It occurred to me that you still haven't answered the questions I've been asking you. I'll try again:

    1. How does a gay marriage tear down anyone's family?
    2. Do you support mob violence against gay people?
    3. Do you support destroying their freedom of speech?
    4. Do you support imprisoning people just because of their sexual orientation?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Aug. 4, 2013 2:46 p.m.

    @Scoundrel
    West Jordan, UT

    Does this not remind anyone else of what Germany did to the Jews leading up to WWII and the Holocaust?
    2:33 p.m. Aug. 3, 2013

    ========

    You mean like concentration camps and gas chambers?

    You mean like yellow stars of David, and Pink Triangles?

    Yep, it's the same.

  • Contrariuser mid-state, TN
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:26 p.m.

    @J Thompson --

    "Anti-gay bashers are no different from gay-bashers."

    Of course they are.

    Refer to my earlier post about which side has been victimized by the vast majority of violent attacks.

    And then refer to Scoundrel's and Liberal's posts about Nazi Germany and pink triangles.

    "Russia has decided that it will not tolerate the destruction of the traditional family"

    That's a laugh.

    Gay marriage **builds** families -- it doesn't destroy anything.

    On the other hand, alcohol frequently DOES destroy families.

    Do you really expect Russia to outlaw vodka any time soon?

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 3:56 p.m.

    Contrariuser,

    You're asking the wrong question. We were created for a purpose, male and female. Our creator commanded us to marry someone of the opposite sex and to multiply. That commandment has not been erased. In the most holy places on earth, similar words are spoken to every couple as they are married.

    How does the gay lifestyle promote the Creator's vision of what a family should be?

    How does the gay lifestyle promote the eternal principles upon which happiness is founded?

    How does the gay lifestyle teach children how to conduct themselves in accordance with eternal laws?

    I'm guessing that your only response is that your god does not require you to marry someone of the opposite sex before having sexual relations. That simply proves the point. When eternal truths are ignored, mankind is left to his own ideas about how to structure society. Russia is more advanced in its concern about society than are we. It knows that destroying the family unit by promoting alternate lifestyles will destroy Russia's civilization.

    There is no rebuttal to the fundamental reason that Russia rejects gay activist propaganda.

  • Contrariuserer mid-state, TN
    Aug. 4, 2013 5:01 p.m.

    @Mike --

    "You're asking the wrong question."

    Asking a person to support their claims is never the wrong question.

    I'll ask again: how does gay marriage tear down anyone else's marriage? That shouldn't be hard to answer, Mike.

    "Our creator commanded us to marry someone of the opposite sex and to multiply."

    And yet Paul tells us that it is better to remain single than to marry.

    Hmmmm.

    "That commandment has not been erased."

    It has already been fulfilled -- by Adam and Eve, and the thousands of generations since then.

    God didn't tell **everyone** to multiply. He gave that command directly to Adam and Eve -- and they fulfilled it. If God had meant for EVERYONE to do it, he surely would have been intelligent enough to make an Eleventh Commandment.

    "How does the gay lifestyle promote the Creator's vision of what a family should be? "

    I can answer all your questions with one simple answer:

    Gay marriage promotes all of these things in exactly the same ways as any other infertile couple's marriage does -- by exemplifying love, commitment, and the raising of children in stable loving homes -- however those children come to be.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Aug. 4, 2013 6:55 p.m.

    @ Contrariuserer

    I'm sure that you know that Paul was not the Savior, but if you believe Paul, then why are you talking about marriage?

    There are things too precious to be talked about outside of holy places; however, you can clearly read part of that message by reading "The Family: A Proclamation To The World". After reading that Proclamation, you are left with only two possible answers: Either God spoke the truth when he told Amos that He would never do anything without first revealing it to us through a prophet, or that God lied. Since God cannot lie, the only answer that is truthful is that he told the prophets exactly what they should say to the world and they have told the world that only a man and a woman are to be married and that the commandment to multiply and replenish the earth has not been modified since it was given to father Adam and mother Eve.

    You have resorted to using your own ideas in place of God's commandments to justify the gay lifestyle. Read John 17:3 and then don't stop learning until you truely understand God's Plan of Happiness.

  • ender2155 Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Aug. 5, 2013 3:18 a.m.

    Mike Richards is correct; Russia has every right to declare their own laws and confirm what is right in the eyes of their country. The rest of the world also has the right, nay, responsibility, to say Russia is wrong in treating gay people as less than human and criminals based on nothing other than homophobic rhetoric. I'm sure that Mr. Richards would be aghast if Russia declared that slavery was acceptable in their country; why would the government's percecuting people exercising their right to be who God made them be any different?

  • Contrariuserer mid-state, TN
    Aug. 5, 2013 10:05 a.m.

    @Mike

    "I'm sure that you know that Paul was not the Savior"

    It doesn't matter what I believe about Paul.

    Religious people on these boards are constantly telling us that Paul was a prophet of God. Well --

    If he wasn't, then we can ignore what he said about homosexuals -- and he's the ONLY person in the entire New Testament who spoke against homosexuality.

    And if he was, then he directly contradicts your claims about a supposed duty to procreate.

    So, Mike -- which is it?

    "you can clearly read part of that message by reading "The Family: A Proclamation To The World"."

    You do realize that less than 2% of the US is Mormon, right? You are never going to convince the vast majority of the American population about *anything* if you base it solely on Mormon dogma.

    "Russia is more advanced in its concern about society than are we...will destroy Russia's civilization."

    You do realize that Hitler said nearly the same things about Jews, right?