For the Record....Utah "used" to be predominately
Progressive Democrat, long before it morphed into Limbaugh Republican.
For some there is no limit to the revision of history to suit their agenda.Yes there are trenched in culture issues here, more of the type
described in this letter than about religion. Those who deny it need to move
away for 5 years and come back. Then you will be able to see it.The
religion wars seem to be pretty equally instigated, from where I am standing, a
lot like the U vs BYU issues. Both sides have some crazy fanatics that get in
people's faces, and a whole lot of normal nice people too.Go
As a Mormon myself, I am continually ashamed that my fellow LDS are often so
unwelcoming. Of all people on earth, we ought to be the best neighbors you can
Utah was established by people who wanted to worship God. Many of our ancestors
imigrated to Utah from foreign countries where they had been oppressed by either
the government or by their employers. My ancestors came from England, from
Germany, from Denmark and from France. They asked for nothing except a chance
to live their religion.Since that time, many more people have come
to Utah. Some have come because they wanted a safe place to raise their
families. Some came because they wanted to escape the crowds of the large
cities.As someone who served for fourteen years as a missionary for
the LDS Church, I asked hundreds of people why they came here. Almost every one
of them said that they felt something special here that had been missing in
their lives.Utah has something special to offer. It has a people
who live eternal truths as best they can everyday of their lives. It has
families where children love and respect their partents. We are a
"peculiar" people. We're different. If you've left another
state to come here, then really leave that state, don't drag it with you as
All around the West, you'll find the same attitude -- that Californians
move in en masse and try to change their new town into mini California by trying
to change local government policy, zoning, architecture, culture, etc.
I've seen it first-hand in Nevada, Utah, and Idaho, and it seems to be
real. When you move somewhere, you should adapt to your new
hometown, not try to change it. Else why did you move there?
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, UtahWe are a "peculiar"
people. We're different. If you've left another state to come here,
then really leave that state, don't drag it with you as extra baggage.2:59 p.m. July 6, 2013========Mike, Thanks for
nothing for being the very "problem" the last 2 articles have tried to
address.BTW - it's not a Mormon vs. Non-Mormon thing for guys
like you, it's really a Republican vs. Democrat.
@RobertRexburg, IDIf you are living in a buffalo skin tent,
eating fish, nuts, berries, deer and buffalo -- you might not sound like such a
re: Mike Richards*We are a "peculiar" people. We're
different. If you've left another state to come here, then really leave
that state, don't drag it with you as extra baggage.*Love your
use of the Royal We, Mike? Though, not as much as like your veiled opinion as to
who you think is to blame for Utah's culture war. Repression,
Denial, & insecurity will only get worse among "Old Utah" the more
cosmopolitan that state becomes.
@Mike RichardsSouth Jordan, Utah"We are a "peculiar"
people. We're different. If you've left another state to come here,
then really leave that state, don't drag it with you as extra
baggage."2:59 p.m. July 6, 2013@RobertRexburg, ID"When you move somewhere, you should adapt to your new hometown, not try
to change it. Else why did you move there?"3:28 p.m. July 6, 2013=======Thanks to both of you for providing the perfect
examples of nearly everything that is WRONG with Utah and it's Utah Mormons
as stated in these 2 DN articles.FYI Robert - I hope you are truly
practicing what you preach by living in a buffalo skin tee pee, eating fish,
nuts, berries, deer and speaking Shoshone."Else why did you move
"As someone who served for fourteen years as a missionary for the LDS
"When you move somewhere, you should adapt to your new hometown, not try to
change it. Else why did you move there?"I assume all of you who
are putting forth this attitude live in tepees and speak native American
language in your homes.
@Irony Guy:"As a Mormon myself, I am continually ashamed that my
fellow LDS are often so unwelcoming."Your fellow LDS got that
way quite naturally. Utah's ancestors were were kicked out of several
places back east until they finally moved en mass to Utah. But it didn't
end there. The Federal Government sent an army (Johnston's ?) to Utah to
harass even further. No wonder the descendents are suspicious of foreigners and
tend to not welcome them. The attitude is engrained and will take more than
just a day or two to get over... if ever."Of all people on
earth, we ought to be the best neighbors you can find anywhere."Give it time, but it won't happen in a day or two.
Sorry Alfred, I'm not buying it. Almost all of us can look back in our
family histories and see ancestors who have struggled and been horribly
oppressed. This is no excuse for our own bad behavior. And bad behavior it is.
@ Mike Richards"Many of our ancestors imigrated to Utah from
foreign countries.." The LDS pioneers who immigrated to "Utah" in
1847 were illegal immigrants. Utah was a part of Mexico at that time. What I find ironic is those who claim their anscestors came to Utah to
practice their religion freely and away from oppression now tend to oppress
those who also want to practice their religion freely.
Was it the "Mormons" who burned and trashed LDS churches after Prop 8?
Was it " Mormons" who blocked temples in California so that temple
worship was restricted? Is it "Mormons" who stomp and spit on
scripture when SAINTS from all over the world congregate for conference? Is it
"Mormons" who demand that liquor be served at "family
restaurants?There are many good people here who are members of other
religions, but they're not the ones who demand that we lower our standards
so that they can feel "comfortable". They, like us, are mocked and
belittled by those who will not be satisfied until Salt Lake becomes Los
Angeles, or San Francisco, or Las Vegas, or Chicago. WE are a
peculiar people. WE left those places to come to a place of refuge, a place of
peace, a place where we can worship our God without the world dictating doctrine
and covenants to us.
@Wastintime:"Sorry Alfred, I'm not buying it."Not
buying what? That early Mormons were kicked out of at least two places they
built up... and three if you count Kirkland where they erected their temple?If you were kicked out like that and in one place (Missouri) threatened
with death if you didn't leave post-haste, and eventually had to trek over
1,500 miles to get to a safe place I think you'd be 'buying it'
and then some. I think it'd take you a life time or two to get over the
distrust of strangers moving in."Almost all of us can look back
in our family histories and see ancestors who have struggled and been horribly
oppressed."Struggling and being oppressed is not quite the same
thing as being threatened with total extermination."This is no
excuse for our own bad behavior."It's engrained. It will
take generations to put it behind them.
LDS? lib,Utah stopped aligning with the dems when the dems embraced
abortion uber alles and pushed for gay marriage.
@ AlfredI'm not buying it because I was born and raised in SLC
and have great-great grandfathers who were polygamists. My ancestors crossed
the plains (and were persecuted as you described), but that was four generations
ago! I was raised on the east bench, spent my youth on lovely ski slopes,
received a semi-decent education, and had every advantage most white people
raised in America in the 1970's had. I have lived around the country, and
everywhere I've moved people have opened their arms and accepted me as I
am. People living in Utah in the year 2013 have absolutely no excuse for not
doing the same. When I visit (and people give me attitude for being a
Californian) I can only marvel at (and be ashamed at) how ignorant some Uthans
@Wastintime:"I'm not buying it because I was born and raised in
SLC and have great-great grandfathers who were polygamists."That's another thing... alotta men had to hide due to breaking
anti-polygamy laws.When you add it all up, the people of Utah
developed a suspicion of strangers for many reasons including those I've
cited... and the suspicious mentality lingers still. Not with all folks, but
many.If you have a better explanation, let's hear it.
@ Mike RichardsYour assertions that LDS churches were burned and
Temple access blocked in California after Prop 8 are totally false.Your straw man assertions (1), that somebody is demanding that you lower your
standards, and (2), that somebody is dictating doctrine and covenants to you are
equally false and quite ridiculous sounding!
It is ironic that some UTahns view "outsiders" as a threat to their
society when that is exactly what sparked tensions between Missourians, Ohioans,
and Mormons. Mormons in Missouri and Ohio began to overwhelm the local
population. Some Mormons even stated they were going to drive the locals out.
As the Mormons gathered they were insular--didn't appear to the native
population as assimilating.One would think that UTahns,
wanting to be more Christ-like would treat outsiders with respect and courtesy.
Utahns shouldn't demonize immigrants and others in the same way their
wncestors were feared and demonized.
@Mike Richards"If you've left another state to come here, then
really leave that state, don't drag it with you as extra baggage."If other states took that line of thought people would have more dislike
of missionaries exporting their values.
Sadly, Utah is full of ignorant hypocritical Pharisees who speak the right words
on Sunday, but whose actions and attitudes are anything but inviting and
Christlike. If you have lived in the "mission field" and then return,
it is all too apparent.
@Truthseeker:"It is ironic that some Utahns view 'outsiders'
as a threat to their society when that is exactly what sparked tensions between
Missourians, Ohioans, and Mormons."It's human mature. No
matter what you and others may think of the Mormons, they're human, too.
@Mike Richards;Before the Mormons arrived there was a thriving
civilization here already. Many non-Mormons also arrived at or near the same
time as the Mormons. My ancestors joined the LDS Church, not because they were
looking for freedom to worship, but because they liked what they heard.And it WAS the Mormons who pushed Prop-8 to violate the freedom of LGBT
Americans. It WAS the Mormons who rallied and bussed in tons of people to help
push their agenda and paid at least half the total cost. Mormons are not
innocent of that, and there is a saying from Bible, which you say you believe:
"You reap what you sow" (i.e. actions have reactions and consequences).
You took action, accept the consequences.
Alfred....you excuse for the members of the church being unkind to
other is appalling...They are TAUGHT to be exclusive, even our own
Prophet has said "Be more inviting, more open to our non LDS friends"...
are you arguing with the man you proclaim as a prophet?Like
wastintime, I was born in SLC and have pioneer hertiage... Unlike him, I lived
on the West side of the valley and my family was NOT LDS. The treatment we
received by hands of these so called good Mormons... well let just say "not
accepting of the standards of our church".It was not until I
found members outside of my area that I realized that not all Mormons were
jerks... they converted me later and now I try to be that example for others to