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Southern Baptists officially oppose gay Scout rule

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  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2013 12:24 p.m.

    Good job!

    If boys shouldn't be in tents with girls, gays shouldn't be in tents with straight boys

    No, not all gays would become attackers.

    Neither would most boys attack girls in tents.

    It is not appropriate to force a straight boy to change clothes and sleep in a tent with someone who is attracted to him

    That is not fair to the straight boy

    I don't walk into a ladies locker room and tell them "tough deal with it"

    Let's not tell the straight boys the same thing

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2013 12:25 p.m.

    some often quoted liberal lines:

    "Quote: "Same-sex attraction itself is not a sin".

    Agreed.

    Neither is heterosexual attraction

    And yet we don't have boys and girls share tents and change clothes together.

    "Quote: "Attraction to those of the same sex...should not be viewed as a disease or illness."

    Agreed.

    Neither should heterosexual attraction.

    And yet boys and girls don't share tents.

    "Members of the Church who have same-sex attractions, but don’t act on them, can continue to enjoy full fellowship in the church, which includes holding the priesthood, carrying out callings, and attending the temple"

    Yes, Mormons allow that for heterosexuals too.

    And yet boys/girls don't share tents

    "As for gay scout leaders -- straight women serve as Scoutmasters in the BSA"

    Agreed

    And yet they don't share tents with the boys.

    I'm frankly shocked liberals have such a hard time grasping such a simple concept.

  • Wingnut1 USA, UT
    June 12, 2013 12:32 p.m.

    Chris B
    That is the first comment I've read of yours that I have agreed with you with! You are absolutely right, it is completely not appropriate to share a tent with someone who is attracted to you. Oh but then when you make the boy be in his own tent, then BSA will get slammed for discrimination. Can't exactly solve the problem once you've allowed it to happen :/

  • TallNSkinny43 Germantown, MD
    June 12, 2013 12:43 p.m.

    Chris,
    I agree that the tent issue is real, and you make a good argument. One correction though: Male leaders are not allowed to sleep in tents with the boys at all unless it is a father and his son, at least that is how it was about the time I got my eagle. Leaders sleep in their own tents and boys sleep in the same tents as other boys.

  • Chris B Salt Lake City, UT
    June 12, 2013 12:52 p.m.

    @TallnSkinny43,

    I don't see how that is a correction. When did I say something that disagreed with that?

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    June 12, 2013 1:06 p.m.

    I don't agree with Chris B much. But on this one he has hit the nail square on the head. Couldn't agree more. I don't see how anyone can argue with what he said, but I am sure someone will find a way.

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    June 12, 2013 1:43 p.m.

    How old are these kids. I doubt that any one has made up their mind.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    June 12, 2013 1:55 p.m.

    Who would Jesus reject?

  • Scott3 Quiet Neighborhood, UT
    June 12, 2013 2:01 p.m.

    I sure wish the LDS Church would take a stronger stance. If the church thinks this situation is going to get better, it isn't. It will only get worse. We are letting impressionable youth and the the church as a whole dance with the devil. Please don't justify it by saying it is already going on and occurs elsewhere.

    I have yet to hear one comment addressing why the scouts could not just produce a don't ask, don't tell policy. Keep your personal business to yourself.

  • paintandestroy Richmond/Cache, UT
    June 12, 2013 3:44 p.m.

    One problem before was if a scout leader THOUGHT a kid was gay for whatever reason, he had some real leverage. Unfortunately if your not especially tough or athletic people sometimes create false labels. I'm not entirely disagreeing with Chris B., I think it's a point well made, but when boys and girls share a tent there's a real likelihood of MUTUAL attraction that's less likely to occur in a same gender environment.

  • Say No to BO Mapleton, UT
    June 12, 2013 3:44 p.m.

    Tendencies vs temptations...edited conference talks...tolerance trap...Family Proclamation is not a revelation...a website...changes in the Honor Code...Mormons Building Bridges...
    We are nibbling at the edges here. The Saints need some direction, not press releases.
    How long halt ye between two opinions?

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    June 12, 2013 4:28 p.m.

    reSay No to BO

    The Prophet Joseph Smith taught "we teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves". To your point regarding gay scouts ...there are already gay church members and I suspect as the Church grows beyond 20 million in a few years you are going to see all sorts of people coming to sacrament meeting in all parts of the globe. A few years ago no one ever considered a gay Mormon but now we have two members of the Quorum of the 12 giving talks regarding gay members and telling them that they are welcome and not excluded in any way so long as they keep the law of chastity. There are some church members who resist change...I was on an LDS mission with a companion from the south who just couldn't get past blacks receiving the priesthood - he liked it the other way. As the church grows to be a now global church you are going to see converts who come from all walks of life and some pretty liberal pasts and I suspect many - especially Utah Mormons - are going to swallow hard to accept them. Too bad. The Savior loves ALL.

  • southmtnman Provo, UT
    June 12, 2013 4:32 p.m.

    I think Chris B would have us create separate tents, separate bathrooms/latrines, separate cafeterias, separate troops, etc. - separate but equal, right!

    The number of gay scouts are few, and the number of problems that will arise that fit Chris B's scenarios are the exception.

    So, as one beloved LDS leader once stated, "Dear sister, we’d like not to take care of the exception first. We will take care of the rule first, and then we will see to the exceptions.... When you state a rule and include the exception in the same sentence, the exception is accepted first."

    The rule adopted by the BSA and supported by the Church, that is inclusive of all young men, regardless of orientation, is a good, fair rule. Any exceptions and accommodations should be handled appropriately and discretely by thoughtful leaders.

  • War dog Taylorsville, UT
    June 12, 2013 5:47 p.m.

    I have worked with and known many gays as they are referred to, because of my past job, I never met one who said I chose this lifestyle

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    June 12, 2013 6:26 p.m.

    It doesn't matter. They're just a church.

  • mssr Provo, UT
    June 12, 2013 7:45 p.m.

    It's sad that people actually think that gays weren't in the Boy Scouts before...

  • Go Big Blue!!! Bountiful, UT
    June 12, 2013 9:28 p.m.

    I officially oppose the Southern Baptists intolerance towards other religions and towards those of different viewpoints.

  • EDM Castle Valley, Utah
    June 13, 2013 8:26 a.m.

    Chris B,
    Would you concede as possible that the gay boy in the tent might not be attracted at all to the straight boy? Never mind considering the opposite as within the realm of nature.

  • The Big Deal Bountiful, UT
    June 13, 2013 9:55 a.m.

    EDM,

    Isn't better to be safe than sorry..?

    Go Big Blue,

    Is your intolerance of people being intolerant justified for some reason, or are you being sarcastic?

    Chris B,

    Is your point that gay leaders should be ok and gay youth should not be?

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 13, 2013 9:55 a.m.

    @Chris B --

    The Girl Scouts have accepted lesbian scouts for years. The world has not come to an end.

    The same will happen in the Boy Scouts. The world will not come to an end.

    Straight women already serve as Scoutmasters for boy scouts.
    Straight men already serve as leaders for girl scouts.
    Lesbian women already serve as leaders for girl scouts.

    None of these established facts have caused the sky to fall.

    I said in another thread: "As for gay scout leaders -- straight women serve as Scoutmasters in the BSA"

    You replied here: "-- Agreed -- And yet they don't share tents with the boys."

    NO leaders share tents with boys in the BSA -- regardless of gender or orientation.

    NO leaders should be alone with scouts -- regardless of gender or orientation.

    As we already know, the real molesters are going to be hiding under a camouflage of apparent normalcy. The scouts and leaders who are honest about being gay are not the danger that we need to worry about.

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    June 13, 2013 10:28 a.m.

    EDM,

    "Would you concede as possible that the gay boy in the tent might not be attracted at all to the straight boy"

    Yes.

    Would you concede as possible that a straight male is not attracted to every female in the world?

    And yet you likely support that straight male not taking the neighbor girls camping, or walking into a ladies locker room, even if he is not attracted to the women inside?

    I've been over this time after time.

    Quite simple really.

  • Cris B. Sandy, UT
    June 13, 2013 10:40 a.m.

    EDM,

    Would you concede as possible that the gay boy in the tent might be very attracted to the straight boy?

    If you are honest, I have a follow up question.

    What is your proposal to the feelings of the straight boy if this makes him feel uncomfortable(similar discomfort as if coming from a female in a tent with a boy who is attracted to her)?

    "Tough luck kid, deal with it" ?

    Those who argue with me refuse to acknowledge the very real feelings of the straight boy, who justifiably might not want to change his clothes around someone attracted to him, just as a young lady would not want to around a young man attracted to her.

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 13, 2013 10:46 a.m.

    @Cris B. --

    "And yet you likely support that straight male not taking the neighbor girls camping"

    Once again -- NO leader should ever take scouts camping alone, regardless of gender or orientation.

    Quite simple, really.

  • Christopher B Ogden, UT
    June 13, 2013 12:02 p.m.

    brownpaper,

    No one ever said a leader should take a scout camping.

    Not sure what you're arguing.

    You're trying to argue a simple point, but no has has ever disagreed with the point you're making.

    I don't know how to make this more simple for you. I would if I could.

    Boys don't go camping with girls. We don't tell the girls "tough just deal with it" and force them to change clothes and sleep with boys

    Gay boys shouldn't be camping straight boys.

    We OWE that same RESPECT to the straight boys.

    This is about scout safety and respect

  • plainbrownwrapper Nashville, TN
    June 13, 2013 12:40 p.m.

    @Chris B --

    "No one ever said a leader should take a scout camping."

    Great! Then you can stop all that fear-mongering nonsense you've been posting about straight men taking little girls out into the woods. You obviously realize that your scare tactics are completely irrelevant to the actual situation at hand.

    Glad to hear it! :-)

    "Boys don't go camping with girls. "

    Lesbian girl scouts go camping with straight girl scouts. They have done so for years.

    Where's the difference?

    "Gay boys shouldn't be camping straight boys."

    Why not?

    Lesbian girl scouts have been camping with straight girl scouts for years.

    Are girl scouts somehow tougher than boy scouts? Are boy scouts really such delicate flowers?

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 13, 2013 1:09 p.m.

    The LDS Church allows gay members,
    The LDS Church allows gay Boy Scouts.

    So -
    You can either follow the Prophet,
    or join the Baptists.

    The End

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    June 13, 2013 2:06 p.m.

    @ LDS Liberal

    When did the prophet come out and say being gay is OK? To allow them participation, sure, I guess. I havent heard it directly from President Monson, so if it comes through the spokesman of the church that makes it a following the prophet or not statement I guess?

    To support an individual is one thing, to agree with an individual who made a choice to do what in my opinion is wrong is another.

    The church allows gay members, they allow gay scouts, do they support their beliefs or actions?

    If my kid chooses not to share a tent with a gay scout because he does not feel comfortable with that. I guess according to your post he doesnt follow the prophet? It is thoughts like this that what gives the church and its members a bad name. Your handle is LDS Liberal, but what about the non-liberal LDS members, do they not follow the prophet also because they do not agree with your liberal standards. I just dont get it.

  • Girlse State Midvale, UT
    June 13, 2013 2:29 p.m.

    @Utahbruin - even if "Lds" liberal is lds, which I don't believe, he uses certain things church leaders have said as justification of things they have not said. I think he added the LDS part to his handle to try and seem as if his posts have more power/reason. Either way, he suggests that Church leaders believe things they certainly do not believe. By the brethren saying "same sex attraction is not a sin" is suddenly equal to "homosexual relationships" are OK and not fought against.

    Clearly the brethren have not said that, nor will they. And I stand with the brethren.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    June 13, 2013 2:45 p.m.

    re:LDS Liberal

    Good point and well said.

  • zoar63 Mesa, AZ
    June 13, 2013 8:02 p.m.

    @patriot

    "The Savior loves ALL."

    True but not the sin

    "And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more."

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    June 14, 2013 7:10 a.m.

    @UtahBruin;

    You should think for yourself regardless what your leaders say.

    @zoar;

    Being gay and in a same-sex relationship isn't a "sin". Being gay in a heterosexual relationship would be a sin, as would being heterosexual in a same-sex relationship.

    Sin is relative anyway. I don't believe in "sin" per se, but if I did, I'd certainly believe that bigotry is a sin.

  • Fred Vader Oklahoma City, OK
    June 14, 2013 8:31 a.m.

    I think the reality is "gay" or not, most boy scouts on camping trips only share tents with those they are comfortable with. When I was a scout, I never shared a tent. That was my preference due to the fact that a week up in the woods with no showering made for some smelly scouts. Only once did a leader insist that I would "have to" share a tent. I chose not to go on the trip, rather than share. While only a "boy", I was mature enough to decide what I wanted to do or not do, and was generally supported by my scout leaders. I think that is how most scouts deal with it, regardless of this issue.

  • UtahBruin Saratoga Springs, UT
    June 14, 2013 9:21 a.m.

    @RanchHand

    I do

  • 2plainbrownwrappers Nashville, TN
    June 14, 2013 9:41 a.m.

    @zoar --

    "True but not the sin"

    It's not your job to judge. That's God's job.

    Many religious people -- Christian, Jew, and others -- have no problem reconciling the teachings of the Bible with the idea of equal citizenship for gay people.

    ---------

    "Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven." Luke 6:37

    "Judge not, that ye be not judged." (Matthew 7:1)

    "And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man." John 5:27

    "If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

    "Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it." James 4:11

    "There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?" James 4:12

    ----------

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    June 14, 2013 9:46 a.m.

    @Girlse State
    Midvale, UT

    @Utahbruin - even if "Lds" liberal is lds, which I don't believe, he uses certain things church leaders have said as justification of things they have not said. I think he added the LDS part to his handle to try and seem as if his posts have more power/reason. By the brethren saying "same sex attraction is not a sin" is suddenly equal to "homosexual relationships" are OK and not fought against.

    Clearly the brethren have not said that, nor will they. And I stand with the brethren.
    2:29 p.m. June 13, 2013

    =========

    ..."The Church distinguishes between same-sex attraction and behavior. While maintaining that feelings and inclinations toward the same sex are not inherently sinful, engaging in homosexual behavior is in conflict with the “doctrinal principle"..."

    I never said anything of the sort - you have a reading comprehension issue.

    I said, and I quote:
    "The LDS Church allows gay members,
    The LDS Church allows gay Boy Scouts."

    The Church even allows members who are alcoholics [since once you are one, you never get over it.]

    Not allowing for what you are, regardless for what you do --- is defined as bigotry.

  • Sneaky Jimmy Bay Area, CA
    June 17, 2013 9:45 a.m.

    Haters gonna hate.May the Baptists reap what they sew.