Dear parents with young children; what you do matters everywhere. And if they
behave in church like they do in other spaces public and private, It's a
good reason not to go to church. I know, that's a broad generalisation, but
wow some of the stuff you see kids up to when they're out around other
people. Makes you wonder.
Amen to the article.If only those parents who refuse to being their
children to church because of the struggle would realize they aren't making
it easier on themselves when at 6yrs and 8yrs the kids still don't know how
to behave, since they weren't taught how early on. The solution of one
parent staying home with the kids while the other attends is thoughtful but
truly a cop out. It's essentially an excuse for the parents to not keep
fighting the often literal fight. Patience and fortitude will never come from
emotional breakdowns and concession. You can do it, just please don't give
in to giving in.
I'm glad parents bring their children to church even when they aren't
perfectly behaved. I am not worried when a toddler slips away and bangs on the
piano before getting caught or races around the chapel with a parent in chase.
They can't learn if they aren't there.Besides, when the
service ends, they come to me in the children's classes. If they
didn't come, I'd have to go to boring adult classes where they never
teach with flannel boards and puppets. I, a grandmother who has to borrow
children, look forward all week to teaching my little class of wiggly, giggly
preschoolers and I depend on you to bring them to me.When my
children were small, I figured I might be spending half my time in the foyer,
but I was coming--and bringing the children--to show God I cared enough to have
us in the right place on Sunday morning.
I loved this article. And I can say from personal experience that I was not
always the best model of behavior in church when I was quite small. But I did
absorb things and learned. 40+ years later, I remember some of those early
experiences in church. The love and kindness of teachers who had infinite
patience, exposure to hymns and scriptures which have become ever more
meaningful as I've gotten older. Keep bringing your young children to
church. It will make a huge difference in their lives in years to come.
Proverbs 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he
will not depart from it.
this might not be a popular view, but I think it's fundamentally wrong to
raise children in any religion. They should be raised in a rational, logical
environment. If you can't back up claims of a deity with reputable,
replicable scientific evidence, you shouldn't make them to children. When
they're adults, they can then make their own choices. Please don't
take offence, none's intended.
To Bergermough No offense taken, but I respectfully disagree. If
we could only teach children things that we can prove logically, imagine the
world we would live in. Can you logically prove that it is wrong to kill? No,
because it always comes down to a base value of life. We believe that life is
valuable even though we cannot gather data to prove that fact. The same is true
with any moral code. Moral codes can't be proven logically, they are a
matter of conscience. And thank goodness they are because they are also the
basis of our society. The same is true of religion. You cannot
prove that God exists, but I know that He does exist in the same way that I know
life is valuable or that kindness is good. And religion too serves as a basis
for our society. It provides moral teachings and organization for good works. I
am grateful we still live in a largely religious society.
so try as you might, you can't come up with any logical argument to
demonstrate why we shouldn't kill each other?
Dear Bergermouh,Are you saying those believe in religion and God are
not rational or logical? If so, why? What make a person more rational or
logical in their thinking just because they don't believe in religion or
God over another person who does? There are many people with
personal experiences that have given, at least to them, sufficient reason to
believe though it might not be enough to convince others. In the
end, it may be just as fundamentally wrong to deny children the opportunity to
know about religion and God. Would you deny children any other kind of
education or knowledge or just a knowledge of and belief in religion or God? As
happens with many children raised in any home, as children grow older they still
are able to choose whether or not to beleive the things their parents and
society has taught them. Some believe while others choose a different path.
Recently President Monson told on himself - how he started a fire outside when
he was 8 that almost got out of control. Another time he related how he made
his Primary President cry because of his behavior.I think he turned
out alright. And maybe that is hope for us all as we struggle with our kids.God Bless all of you who do struggle. You are by far the majority.
Thanks. By way of response to '?' I feel compelled to say that theism
is irrational, yes, inasmuch as it is a belief in something that has no evidence
base testable to scientific standards. Unless you know different? Show me the
relevant article in a scientific journal and I'll examine it with
impartiality & care. Atheism by contrast holds that `that which can be
asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.' I don't object to kids being taught generally about the existence of
different belief systems - Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc, but it concerns me
that some children are taught that any one of them is uniquely real and right.
I love it when parents whisper testimonies in their ear. I heard from a grown
who said he was a kid he thought "shadow of a doubt" was all one word.
He had no idea what it meant though. LOL!!
bergermough:Just a thought. Science is not the only branch of human
knowledge. For example, there is no way of scientifically proving that Julius
Cesar existed. For that, one must turn to Historical proof, which is an entirely
different thing altogether.I for one am very comfortable asserting
that Cesar actually existed.
Thank you, Bergermough,Don't know if this helps any or if it is
of any interest to you, but there is an International Society for Science and
Religion, UK. They may or may not have what you seek. Also, an interesting
book I've read is "The God Who Weeps" by Terryl and Fiona Givens.
Another that Terryl Givens has written, I have not read but sounds interesting
is "When Souls Had Wings."For many who do believe in
religion and God there are personal experiences. For many this has included
study, thought (reason and logic might fit in here somewhere), prayer, faith,
and time. Everyone's life experiences are personal. Even if people
experience things at the same time, it seems it is still possible for both to
come away with a different take on the experience. How that all plays out in
the scientific realm, I don't know. Best wishes.
Dear Bergermough,An interesting thought from “Compatibility of
Science and Religion” Science, Evolution, and Creationism, National
Academy of Sciences and Institute of Medicine. © 2008 National Academy of
Sciences“Science and religion are based on different aspects
of human experience. In science, explanations must be based on evidence drawn
from examining the natural world. Scientifically based observations or
experiments that conflict with an explanation eventually must lead to
modification or even abandonment of that explanation. Religious faith, in
contrast, does not depend only on empirical evidence, is not necessarily
modified in the face of conflicting evidence, and typically involves
supernatural forces or entities. Because they are not a part of nature,
supernatural entities cannot be investigated by science. In this sense, science
and religion are separate and address aspects of human understanding in
different ways. Attempts to pit science and religion against each other create
controversy where none needs to exist.”What do you think?
food for thought, all. Thank you
Dear bergermough,As a trained, practicing scientist, I feel
compelled to broaden what you wrote. If "theism is irrational," so must
be atheism. Laboratory science has no approach to the question of whether deity
exists. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. If "that which
can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence," then
atheism must be dismissed as readily as theism.Any scientist
professing an opinion on this subject, if the opinion is based on
"reputable, replicable [peer-reviewable, publishable] scientific
evidence", can only profess agnosticism. Anything beyond that is personal
belief formed by subjective experience, the interpretation of which is possibly
biased by personal ideology.As for me, my own five senses have
experienced enough to know that God is a real and loving being. (Well, 3 of 5
anyway; no olfactory or gustatory experience yet informs my opinion on the
divine.) To me, these experiences are as material as any biochemical data that I
produce in the laboratory. I cannot deny them. Nor can I give them to you. But if you desire to know for yourself, "Ask, and it shall be given
you. Seek, and ye shall find." This I know.
Introducing religion at an early impressionable age forces children to make one
of the most important/complicated decisions of their lives before the age of
critical thinking, logic, reason and the ability to read/understand the
scriptures being used to indoctrinate them. It takes away their free-will to
choose their own path. Faith can also be used to create an immunity to evidence
and reason. Once the seeds of religion are planted and nourished with weekly
doses of dogma, the child would grow into an adult being unable to rid
themselves of a belief system planted in their innocent unsuspecting,
unquestioning brains. They have been coerced via their emotions, making what
they think they experience in regards to "God", subjectively true, and
when contrary evidence presents itself, there seems to be a reflex fear/anger
emotion that keeps them from researching with a critical mind. People acquire a
religion before critical thinking skills are developed and that religion is
promoted without most people noticing. That's really not a very good reason
to believe that a religion is true. Real experiences that have a profound impact
on a person can have completely natural source and does not equal knowing.
As a parent I ask, please be considerate.It IS hard to sit with
children in meetings. So end the meeting when it is supposed to end, not
after.In fact, if the speakers finish early, Bishop or Stake
President, do not be compelled to fill in the "extra" time. The fact
that you are ordained doesn't make you wiser than those who spoke, nor
essential to the Spirit communicating God's message to the congregation.
Some times a little is enough, and a lot is too much.Dear sincere
person giving the prayer. It is a PRAYER, not a TALK. If you were supposed to
give a talk, you'd have been asked. Open a meeting in < two minutes,
close it in < 30 seconds. Trust the Spirit and the congregation. We
don't need a recap.Let out early once in awhile. On purpose.
Don't poor the glass so full. It just spills over and makes us wet.Chorister, we don't HAVE to sing all 19 verses. Sometimes ONE
VERSE WILL DO.
Parents, if your kid can't say their testimony on their own, wait until
they can. It is disrespectful of the child, the congregation, and the concept
of testimony.Testimony Meeting is a time to share honest, humble
thoughts, not to get attention, nor train your child. Family Home Evening and
Primary are the times to train.Adults, are you compelled to bear
your testimony, or just looking for attention or something to do? If it is the
latter two, don't.Children of all ages can and do benefit from
the Spirit, and from humble talks. Keep those up. Parents, keep the faith. And whomever thought up the 1-4 meeting schedule, WHAT WERE YOU
THINKING? Not about nap time or small children, or their parents, I assure you.
I see this, and agree with much. But? Parents?? Its still important to at least
TRY to keep kids quiet. I have a 17 month old right now. I haven't
managed Sunday school or RS in weeks, but I still at least bring QUIET toys,
Sunday appropriate toys and books (not a firetruck with lights and sirens). I
take him OUT if he is screaming at the top of his lungs -but not to play, the
foyer shouldn't be a reward for bad behavior. And slowly? he is learning
that there is a time to play quietly. Now, he will stay in the pew, not throwing
toys and snacks, and gets my attention quietly. He is learning to enjoy the
music, so it doesn't matter if you sing 19 vs. As a parent? I
ask nicely, to at least make an effort. Yeah, its a struggle, we've all
been there, some of us are STILL there, but you can take this idea and attitude
Great debate here. I'm catholic and I wrestle with some of this stuff
about belief with my own kids. Virgil, I can get them to accept historical
evidence of Jesus, but not my view that he had divine potency. Big D, their
view is that absence of evidence IS evidence of absence i.e. if one contends
that something is real, be it a disease cure or the existence of life on other
planets, one should be able to prove it (`the burden of proof's on you
Dad.`) Grateful for all thoughts. I'm running out of road.
You are right. Also, I'm 74 and this is nothing new. I think I was in
junior high when a smart pastor said "Better a crying baby than a snoring
saint." We attended church as young children. Now that I'm an Old
Fellow and have on occasion snored, I appreciate the comment even more.
Article makes good points. Children belong in church -- including the
deliberate act at an impressionable age of teaching them that God exists, that
He is to worshiped, that His laws are set and good, that we can KNOW absolute
truth and KNOW He exists.We mostly agree "Civil" -- except
1-4 is awesome (but I strongly favor not changing meeting times each year;
that's what is disruptive), best to not sing a hymn (a viable choice) than
to not sing all the verses when a hymn is chosen.Church is not the
place to play or to eat. Neither is necessary! No, your children don't
need toys or distractions; and teaching them to be distracted instead of
attentive to the speakers and proceedings is a poor parenting choice -- even if
the right thing is a difficult struggle. Children can go an hour and ten
minutes without eating; they can go three hours without eating. And the obesity
that surrounds us is evidence of the excessiveness of reinforcing the idea that
we have to constantly be eating and attending to the physical over the
spiritual. Toys and food for kids at church is just taking a lazy cop-out.
I'm of two minds on this. So, I wasn't allowed to go to church as a
small child. Well, more precisely I wasn't allowed to belong to a church.
My parents were of different faiths (LDS and Islam) and didn't want to
influence me. I went to the LDS church with my grandparents and to various
protestant churches with school friends. When I was 8 I was allowed to learn
about churches and eventually chose to join the LDS church.I value
that my parents waited until I was a bit older. Perhaps also coming from a
mixed background I wasn't presented with a unified front of "This is
the only thing that is right and you have no choice". On the other hand, my
younger sister was raised in the church, she attended from a fairly young age,
young primary or so. However our mother reinfoced strongly that we had to have a
testimony of our own and that we went to church for the gospel, not because it
was part of our social structure.
@Samuel B Martineau"Can you logically prove that it is wrong to kill?
"Yes, treat others the way you want to be treated. Everyone
doing harmful things to each other just makes everything worse.
to Joggle, You are so wrong about taking children to church. It helps a child to
learn and grow in more ways than just religion. It teaches them to sit still and
when they start going to school they are better prepared to handle sitting in
classes. I have also noticed that even older children have a hard time sitting
through a funeral for instance if they haven't had the upbringing to sit,
learn, listen, etc in church. As for forcing them to learn a certain religion,
better that than roaming the streets or joining a gang when they are older
because they never had any guidance. It's not brain washing, it's love
and children will always have a choice as they get older. Think of it this way,
don't you think that children should be taught not to touch a hot stove?
You teach that out of love. Well, I teach my children to love the Lord out of my
love for Him and my love for them.
@?You say that religious beleif should be determined by prayer, faith,
study and time. I would agree with that, I think that is making
Bergermough's point. How can someone who is 8(or nine or ten) really do
that? Outside of a child prodigy they can barely read the Bible or BOM, let
alone understand or contextualize it. They have little to no life experience to
draw on to make that type of decision. If a 15 year old kid wants to make a
decision on religion, I can respect that. But how can someone who can hardly
read Nancy Drew really understand scripture?
You'd be surprised how much little children understand from the scriptures.
I have been reading them to my granddaughter since she was 2 and she still asks
for the story of Nephi and the "boat" and she's just turning 6.
Believe me they are smarter than you think.
A "cry room" and foyer are often used when children are
"fussing" and cannot be consoled.Agreed: older children are
best taught to stay seated in the chapel throughout the service. Agreed: a
little child can often be taught in a month or two to be relatively silent
during meeting. Agreed: a child will not usually be disruptive,(if, when taken
out, he's not "rewarded" with having free rein of the halls).
Outside he might still learn to sit fairly quietly. Agreed:
"appropriate" coloring books and activities be provided and most
bambinos should be able to last an hour, even without a snack. Usually I find,
in my limited experience, that my infant descendants can learn to be fairly
well-behaved while still tots.I've had lots of enjoyment over
the years watching these little ones grow. One boy says "Amen" when
the others do. At three he threw a toy into the aisle and across the aisle
another little boy (only two) picked it up and gave it him back. Taking tots to
Church gives parents opportunity to attend and trains children in good conduct.
Here's a thought, I got from a bishop of mine on this topic. He said have
a patient and loving heart and LESS JUDGMENTAL. Then ask if you could be
When I hear kids in church and they are not mine, I don't worry. I'm
not the one straining to pick up the pacifier.I have hope that each
child will learn to sit quietly just as I have hope adults will learn to sit
still and not look all around to see who is making the noiseAny one
who brings Cheerios to church should be volunteering to clean the chapel.
"Parents, if your kid can't say their testimony on their own, wait
until they can. It is disrespectful of the child, the congregation, and the
concept of testimony.Testimony Meeting is a time to share honest,
humble thoughts, not to get attention...."Where did you get the
idea that children cannot have "honest, humble thoughts"? In my
experience, the thoughts of children are more honest and genuine than those of
many adults. And there are plenty of adults who bear their testimony solely to
get attention and sympathy from the congregation.In fact, I'd
rather sit through a testimony meeting filled with nothing but short "I wuv
my Mommy and Daddy" testimonies than endure weepy adults reciting 20
minute-long lists of their personal problems, many of which were obviously
created by their own poor choices.I used to think like you did.
Then I became a primary teacher, and realized that when a kid says he "knows
the Church is True" he's probably being more sincere than an adult who
says the same thing.
@FelisI think the comment you're remarking on means the ones whee the
kid goes up and the parent dictates what they say. Kids should be encouraged to
share their testimonies, one of the most moving testimonies I've ever heard
came from a kid approaching baptism. But it needs to be the kid's
testimony, not mom or dad whispering the right words into their ear.
I found myself cheering some of the comments here, crying at others, but
all-around a great article and collection of comments, even the ones I
don't agree with.Good job!
What happened to common courtesy and respect for others? When I was young our
meetings were reverent because when a young child became disruptive whether
through crying or repetitive outbursts of any kind, they were whisked out into
the foyer so an atmosphere of reverence was maintained in the chapel. I did the
same when my children were young out of respect for those around me and to teach
my child that the chapel was a sacred place. We sing, “The chapel doors
seem to say to me, shhh, be still.” But that is not the case. Young
parents fight their children to keep them in the meeting. It disrupts the
spirit, the worshippers around them can’t hear and it’s
disrespectful to the speaker also. One of the biggest mistakes made was taking
the cry rooms out of our building plans. This is not only the case in church
meetings, but in concerts and similar events also. Our society has lost its
manners and it shows up nowhere more profoundly than in church. We should follow
Brigham Young’s advice, “Crying children, like good intentions,
should be carried out immediately.”
when our kids were younger, I would hold them at the back of the meeting hall to
try to calm them down, but I wouldn't take them out unless it got totally
out of hand. Then, in the foyer, they had to stay on my lap or in my arms. No
getting down and running in the halls. Once they learned that going
out in the hall didn't result in a positive reward, they were willing to
stay in the meeting and remain relatively still.Our children, like
all of us, can make choices regarding their personal worship that are
appropriate to their age. Until then, we will bring them with me and they will
join us in our faith. If we don't teach them our faith, someone else will
teach them something else. It is impossible to have 'neutral'
children on the topic.
I’m not sure that the advice given here applies to Latter-Day Saints as
much as it does to Lutherans. For us, worship is indeed more about personal
scripture study and quiet, contemplative prayer (as the Bible teaches) rather
than the group “community” aspect of Church, which while important
to some degree, is not sufficient reason to go to church (those who come to
church just for the community aspect are often times the first to leave and
never return when someone says something to offend them). The reason to come to
church is to partake of the sacrament, to learn and grow from the teachings of
church leaders and instructors, and to participate in our quorum activities
(including RS, YM/YW, and Primary) so that we prepare to serve others and build
the kingdom from outside and from within. @Hutterite, there is no
“good reason” not to go to church. There are only excuses. If a
child who has behavioral problems is taken out of the environment where he or
she is most likely to learn how the values needed to know how behave properly,
the odds of his or her behavior improving are substantially lower.