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Letters: Founders' values

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  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 25, 2013 12:29 a.m.

    The murder rate today is virtually the same as it was in 1960. That is before the Supreme Court ruled that prayer in public schools was unconstitutional.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    May 25, 2013 5:36 a.m.

    Our "founding fathers" that had as many different ideas about values as there were "founding fathers" and no more spoke with one voice then we do today, those "founding fathers?

  • Curmudgeon Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 6:18 a.m.

    David, if God is missing from your life, or if you have lost your values, stop blaming the government, gangs, the devil, or anyone other than the man in the mirror.

  • John Charity Spring Back Home in Davis County, UT
    May 25, 2013 7:13 a.m.

    This letter is the most correct of any to appear in this paper in a long time. Indeed, the Obama administration's abandonment of the values of the Founding Fathers is destroying this Country.

    The Founding Fathers believed and established this Country on principles such as hard work, thrift, and industry. The current left-wing government has abandoned these values and replaced them with an entitlement mentality. Now, large segments of the population sit around in their laziness and sloth expecting that their needs will be taken care of by others.

    The Fathers knew that citizens must be expected to provide for themselves, or disaster would be the inevitable result. Those who subsist on welfare, rather than working, use their free time to enage in crime, substance abuse, and immorality. These are the causes of America's ills, not gun ownership.

    Rather than attacking guns, we should attack the moral corruption that it being supported and promulgated by left-wing governmental policies. This is what the Founding Fathers would want.

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    May 25, 2013 7:48 a.m.

    I agree that we need to focus on values. But I don't see how government has taken God out of our lives.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    May 25, 2013 7:49 a.m.

    Nice try with this article but if you are a liberal, guns cause crime, matches cause arson and super sized drinks cause obesity! No one is responsible for their choices and we are all victims of an unjust society, not the consequences of our own choices. Terrorist aren't really terrorists but "freedom fighters". Abortion isn't killing unborn human beings its a choice and a "constitutional right". Welfare dependency is compassion and the is no God and therefore there is no right or wrong behavior and no one is accountable for their behavior. Big, over reaching government is good, freedom is bad and there is no tyranny. The perfect recipe for societal chaos! But that's preferable to them than faith, self control, personal freedoms and self government because for them its all about control and power! Who's plan was that in the first place?

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    May 25, 2013 8:02 a.m.

    Nonsense. I didn't get a chance to know the founders any more than anyone else alive today, but I suspect that they would ba appalled at the gun violence of today. They were smart, educated men. The elites of their time, as it were. I'm pretty sure that, had they been able to see the outcome, they would have approached the second amendment differently. Not with religion or pining for some mythical era past, but with real thought and action.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    May 25, 2013 8:04 a.m.

    How exactly was God taken out of your life? Are you not allowed to go to church? Have the churches been turned into warehouses? Are you not allowed to pray? Just because you don't get to force everyone to believe or worship or even behave they way you want doesn't mean God was taken out of your life.

    Speaking of founding values the founding fathers created a separation between government and churches specifically to protect a diversity of opinions that existed then. I'm sure some opinions, and I would guess more than just atheism, seem Godless to you. However, it was a specific principle of the founding fathers to protect a persons right to that opinion.

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 8:41 a.m.

    Thank Gosh for the Federal Government protecting the rights of Atheists. I haven't raped, killed, robbed. And, I follow the Speed Laws in our communities and freeways. I'm really amused by how many suit and tie wearing Sunday drivers speed by my house every week. Morality is not exclusive to believers.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    May 25, 2013 9:13 a.m.

    @Mountainman.... you just keep up with your comic book version of the world.... where everything is nice and tidy... black and white.... good and evil.... .and all problems only have one answer. Because surely no democrats went to war in the middle east - only republicans. And only republicans pay taxes.... care for their kids and go to church.

    It really amazes me that adults have such closed minded views of the world. That they really think because someone is a democrat that they hate god, don't love the country... less alone hunt. It is mind numbing to think of such a simplistic view of the world.

    There were two plans..... and only one offered freedom of choice... freedom to choose the wrong answer.... and that is not the one that mandates people live a particular lifestyle. It is so funny that paying taxes is confused with lack of freedom. Those who choose to outlaw bad choices are the ones against the Lords plan... those who would impose some version of Christian sharia law.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    May 25, 2013 9:44 a.m.

    It's time to pull your head out of the sand. The "State Religion" of America is either atheism or secular humanism. We have just as much government control of the doctrines dictated by government to establishments of religion as any European country. Obama has dictated that establishments of religion WILL provide birth control and abortions to anyone who works at those establishments, regardless of what the 1st Amendment says about the limits the people put on the government.

    Life has no value in America. Over 50,000,000 unborn babies were sacrificed by their mothers since 1976. Which founding father would have ever even uttered the word "abortion"?

    This week the Boy Scouts voted to protect our sons and grandsons from leaders whose idea of sexuality would have been abhorred by the founding fathers.

    No change in values? It all depends on how much you think "values" have slipped since this nation was founded.

    The murder rate is a reflection of the lack of respect that people have for God and for God's children.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    May 25, 2013 9:52 a.m.

    1. If we don't have God in our lives - how is that the Government's fault?
    [Unless the letter writer is suggesting Government forced religion. Ala, The Taliban, Sharia Law, etc.]

    2. Gangs operate on the same premise as "Capitalism".
    Buy and sell whatever the market demands,
    Get Government out of the way,
    Dog eat dog,
    only the strong survive,
    do whatever is necessary to crush the competition,
    King of the Hill.
    [Unless the letter writer is suggesting we eliminate Capitalism.]

    Sometimes, it seems Conservative can't see that the "values" they espouse are sometimes their own worst enemy...

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    May 25, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    @Mike Richards. The number of abortions is decreasing. Does President Obama get credit for that?

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 10:42 a.m.

    "It seems that maybe the problem started when God was taken out of our lives by government..."

    Don't be silly.

    If you want to live in a country run according the conservative religious dogma, Uganda, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Iran await you.

    Otherwise, try instead living in the real world of constitutionally protected liberty, including freedom from being forced to abide by the religious rules set forth by religions to which you don't subscribe.

    If your religion wants you to do certain things that make no sense but are otherwise harmless to other people, then go ahead, knock yourself out.

    But if you want everyone to abide by the nonsensical rules of your own religion, then expect a legal challenge, and expect to lose.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    May 25, 2013 11:30 a.m.

    @ UtahBlueDevil. First of all, I never said what you said I said so thanks for putting words in my mouth. Secondly, what I DID say I have learned by experience and observation and its no comic book version of the world. It may be to you but then again, who's version of our country is a comic book version? Now that is a relevant question.

  • Onion Daze Payson, UT
    May 25, 2013 11:53 a.m.

    “The Founding Fathers believed and established this Country on principles such as hard work, ...”.

    A portion of “The Founding Fathers” utilized slave labor to accomplish most of the “hard work” on their private properties.

    The nation that they helped establish, when all is said and done, is among the best on this planet. But these men had some flaws and their works were not 100 percent perfect.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 12:05 p.m.

    To Mountanman May 25

    UBD is right. You do paint broad brush strokes w/ only 2 colors (black and white). The last Star Wars flick (Revenge...) may not have been right but they weren't wrong when they said, "Only the Sith think in terms of absolutes."

    Personally, I think you taking the easy way out psychologically, emotionally, & mentally to limit your perception and beliefs.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 12:12 p.m.

    New Hampshire and Vermont have the highest rates of atheism, and the lowest rates of crime in this nation. When all 50 states are looked at as a whole there's just no correlation between religiosity and gun violence (and I'm being generous saying there's no correlation since the Bible belt states in the south are very high for gun violence).

    @Mountanman
    We know guns don't kill people, but people kill people with guns (to the tune of 30,000 a year in this nation including gun-used suicides), so by regulating guns we are regulating people so that the people who want to kill people with guns are less likely to have those guns.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 12:14 p.m.

    re: Mike Richards on 5/25

    And here we go....

    1) The "state religion" is a philosophy? Hmmm!? 2) The alleged decline in this nation has nothing to do w/ *values*. *values* are subjective as is a philosophy. It has everything to do w/ the creation of the Fed which was the beginning of the corporate state i.e. Fascism in the US. 3) Murder has some to do w/ lack of respect but there is more correlation with the fact it is a crime of passion.

    Tell me Mike; Are you for replacing the Eagle as the symbol of the US w/ an ostrich??

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    May 25, 2013 12:26 p.m.

    Back to slavery! Back to oppressing women! Back to killing Indians! Yep, we need to go back to the values of the Founders!

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    May 25, 2013 12:33 p.m.

    micawber,

    You've made my point.

    Although 50,000,000 lives were destroyed since 1976, you seem to imply that if the number of abortions diminishes each year, that there is no problem. So, it seems that you're saying that only the number of lives destroyed is important, not life itself.

    That "change" in morality is not something started with the "founding fathers". They included the words, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in their founding documents. How can someone who is denied life enjoy "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

    When personal concern for protecting life from destruction equals God's concern for each of us, then the concept of the nobility of the human soul will have a new-found importance and the values lived and understood by the founding fathers will be respected. Until then, we should expect a continuation of degradation in America.

  • dave Park City, UT
    May 25, 2013 1:12 p.m.

    "...God was taken out of our lives by government and we lost part of our value system"

    If you look to government to provide your value system your value system is weak. Values are personal and none of government's business. Those that believe in limited government should never complain that their values are lost because of government.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 25, 2013 1:35 p.m.

    I agree that the list of tragedies is too long, but I disagree with the cause.

    Is the premise here that God was taken from us and is no longer available to direct our actions because of government? Is the freedom of religion less today than before? Were the people more moral when government was controlled by religion?

    The evil connotation of “gang mentality” as advanced by conservatives is wrong, the gang mentality is that which makes civilization possible because it is simply the natural belief that the group is greater than the sum of the individuals. In every case where we join a gang, a gild, an association, a union, a club or even a nation, the motivation is always the same, to give ourselves greater control over others, to make us bigger than we are.

    Having a gun seems to be the same mentality.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    May 25, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    @ atl. Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, never have, never will. Check with Chicago for the verification of this truth; strongest gun control laws and the murder capital of the nation. Gun control does not equal crime control.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    May 25, 2013 4:02 p.m.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID

    @ atl. Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, never have, never will. Gun control does not equal crime control.
    1:49 p.m. May 25, 2013

    =====

    So long as it's remains more difficult for me [a 55 year old, white, LDS man, with no criminal history, and the last and only traffic violation I ever got was in 1974] to buy over the counter medications than it is for me or ANYONE else [criminals and the mentally insane] to buy an MR-15 and 1,000 rounds of ammo...then that argument is of 'banning won't stop crime' is and ALWAYS will be null and void.

    Using YOUR flawed logic, you should be championing drug use, prostitution, and total anacrchy -- I mean, you are the one that keeps telling us that law and order doesn't stop crime and criminals....

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    May 25, 2013 5:09 p.m.

    @mountianman.... did you even read your own post? Lets remind you.... You stated...

    :"but if you are a liberal, guns cause crime, matches cause arson and...."

    Pretty much day in and day out you make proclamations of what "liberals" think. But those attitudes just don't reflect the real world. For example abortion, of Republicans, nearly 40% feel abortions should be legal under all situations, and comparatively nearly 40% of democrats don't believe in unrestricted abortions. That means on just this one issue 2 out of 5 don't believe in their parties platform. This from a Pew Research study published in 2012. And not surprisingly independents were split 50/50 on the issue.

    Yes, the talking heads and parties themselves would like to pretend people fit into nice little buckets. But another data point... hunting permits. The states issuing the highest number of hunting permits per capita are Pennsylvania is first in granting hunting licenses, followed by Texas, Michigan, and Wisconsin. Doesn't fit the little red/blue state thing now does it.

    Any broad statements that start with "liberals believe/think" are by their nature wrong.... and in my opinion cartoonish... because people don't fit into only two buckets.

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    May 25, 2013 5:16 p.m.

    Mike

    I am just as opposed to abortion as you are. Your suggestion to the contrary is offensive. We all want abortions to decrease. That there are still too many is bad, but that there are fewer is good.

    You have a habit of trying to make anyone who disagrees with you seem lazy, immoral, or bent on undermining the Constitution. It is not an attractive habit.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 5:37 p.m.

    @Mountanman
    "Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, never have, never will."

    Yes it does because states with tighter gun control laws have more violence on average. By your logic we should sell beer to minors, get rid of the speed limits and just get rid of all the laws because criminals will be criminals anyway.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    May 25, 2013 6:45 p.m.

    Micawber,

    Do you think that even one of the founding fathers would tell us that progress is being made because fewer that 2,000,000 unborn babies were destroyed in the womb last year?

    The subject of this tread is the change between American morals today and the morals held by the founding fathers.

    There is no "number" that anyone can quote to show that a smaller number means that American morals are getting better because fewer unborn babies are aborted.

    I did not minimize the downward slide of moral character by claiming that because a few more babies were spared destruction that we must be turning the corner towards becoming a more moral people.

    The opposite is true. When adults who should know the value of a human life sit back and pat themselves on the back because not quite as many unborn babies were aborted, that only emphasizes that moral decay has happened.

    If abortion were the only indicator, then we could put all energy into overturning Roe v Wade, but how many other "markers" are there that show that the founding fathers had values and that we don't?

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    May 25, 2013 9:18 p.m.

    To Mike Richards: At the time of our founding abortion was legal until the time of quickening, that is the time when the baby can be felt to move inside the womb. States did not begin to pass laws against it until around the time of the Civil War. Since the founders said nothing about abortion, I think it's safe to assume they were okay with the status quo of their time.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    May 25, 2013 9:59 p.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah

    They included the words, "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" in their founding
    documents. How can someone who is denied life enjoy "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness"?

    =========

    The disconnect Mike is when does 'life' begin.

    YOU place it at conception,
    Myself and many other do not - including the LDS Chruch.

    We do not "seal" children into eternal families until "the breath of life".
    Adam did not become a "living soul" until the "breath of life".

    We are no more "alive" at an individual single cell,
    than we are not dead until the very last "cell" dies.

    An what about the 1 trillion cells the die in your body each and every day?

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    May 25, 2013 10:26 p.m.

    Mike,

    If you're truly so concerned "unborn babies being destroyed in the womb", then you'd be supportive of comprehensive sex education and access to birth control that would actually decrease the number of abortions. You'd be advocating increased support for poor families and better funding for education in order to improve their quality of life once they've been born. Otherwise, you're just crying crocodile tears.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    May 25, 2013 10:33 p.m.

    "Not logical because gun control laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, never have, never will."

    Yes they do.

    "Do you think that even one of the founding fathers would tell us that. . . "

    You have absolutely no idea what any of the founders would think about any issue if they lived today.

    I love these people that use other people dead for two hundred years to back up their own personal opinions. There is only one thing we can say about the founders with certainty if they lived today: they would disagree on the issues just as much as they did back then.

  • micawber Centerville, UT
    May 25, 2013 10:35 p.m.

    Mike,

    Yes, I believe at least some of the Founders would think that fewer abortions, even if the number is still too high, is progress. That's the nature of progress.

    You apparently missed my first comment on this thread. I agree that we need to focus on values. Specifically, I think you should focus on values and quit questioning the moral integrity or commitment to Constitutional government of anyone who disagrees with you.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    May 26, 2013 6:27 p.m.

    There is no recorded incident of student initiated shooting up of a school prior 1975,

    lots guns few laws and regulations.

    IT was time tested values and principles, and a society that valued life, that was taught to the students,

    The number of guns has increased greatly in last 50 years without a corresponding proportionate rate increase in gun violence.

    We do not have a gun problem, we have sick society problem.

    Attacks against the founding fathers are disingenuous, they agreed on the core values and principles, and they didn't have societal violence with gun problem and they stopped no one from owning any weaponry or artillery.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2013 9:22 a.m.

    Lets all adopt Thomas Jeffersons religious views.in fact, lets require it to be taught I school. Any religion started after 1776 should of course be banned.

  • one vote Salt Lake City, UT
    May 27, 2013 9:25 a.m.

    The speed laws are unconstitutional. GW had a racing buggy and no speed limits from nanny state.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    May 27, 2013 2:17 p.m.

    Mr. truth is not remembering correctly. The University of Texas experienced a mass shooting in 1966 in which a single gunman killed fourteen and wounded many more from the top of the campus' tallest tower.

  • the truth Holladay, UT
    May 27, 2013 5:07 p.m.

    @Mark B

    The incident you are referring to was done by an adult not a minor. The man was 25 and an ex-marine. you can find plenty example of mass killings by adults not by children, such as done by the guy in Norway to gun free and unarmed citizenry of Norway.

    More to the point I was referring to high school and lower. NO recorded shootings by minor student.

  • Jack Aurora, CO
    May 28, 2013 10:18 p.m.

    @Eric Samuelson
    Not all of the Founders embraced slavery, please describe how they and they alone advocated oppressing women rather than living the mores of their time and when they killed Indians, it was as a result of self-defense or during the French-Indian Wars or fighting the British Indian allies. I believe that the values of the Founders being referred to are self-reliance, thrift, and the desire for a limited government. I am certain that there are more....