'Open enrollment' begins in October for insurer marketplaces
The ACA will "bend the cost curve down," and other fantasies. So much
for not taxing the middle class.
I have no problem with the sticker shock - because each and every one of us who
does have insurance have been subsidizing the care of the uninsured for decades
now. The best example I can think of is it is like going to a
restaurant where in the 80s Reagan mandated that everyone who showed up hungry
at the restaurant had to be feed. if you showed up to the place and had money
- the restaurant owner over charged those with money to balance the books.
Reagan was not wrong to mandate hospitals give care, he just didn't create
a mechanism to pay for these people. The hospitals compensated by averaging
cost and spreading it across those who could pay.Now, everyone who
shows up to be feed (or get medical treatment) must pay. Everyone pays. No
cost averaging.... not hitting up the insured to cover those not insured. We
shall see what the real cost of all this is... and hopefully tweak to make it
After reading this article the translation I got out of it is that Obamacare
will in fact increase health care costs. Everything the Democrats told us about
Obamacare is turning out to be a pack of lies!
This is not a step forward but a push down by the heel of an oppressive
government. There are better ways to healthcare that won't force businesses
to fire people, close down or cut back hours for its workers. That is not
progress but oppression.
3grandslams,What are those better ways? Those of us who have health
insurance have been subsidizing health care for years now and have been
experiencing double digit increases in premiums every year. What we have been
doing certainly isn't working.
It's very refreshing to be able to read comments from people like Fred44
and UtahBlueDevil who actually put some thought and wisdom and truth into their
No matter where you are employed, your health insurance has been getting more
expensive EVERY YEAR since.....Rising health costs passed down to us in
our health insurance policies has been happening long before Mr. Gingrich,
Hillary Clinton, Mitt Romney and Barack Obama talked about some new fangled way
of making sure everyone in our nation had health care.Living with the pain
of the past is no way to exist. New ideas are this nation's futureGive this new system a chance, folks.
I thought if you make under $250,000 you won't see you taxes go up. What a
lie! My taxes already rose this year due to the bill the President signed and
Orin Hatch voted for,and now even more taxes thanks to ACA, a law I didn't
want. Way to go Democrats you are killing the middle class. I can't afford
to pay more for health insurance, we may have to drop it altogether and pay the
fines. This law is stupid, stupid, stupid. These politicians have no clue how
hard it is right now for the middle class. Soon enough if you aren't upper
middle class you will be better off taking a pay cut down to 30k so that the
government will pay for the stuff that you can no longer afford. The private
sector isn't giving raises to make up for all these fees and taxes that the
Democrats are burdening us with, because of all the fees and taxes they are
getting saddled with. When will America wake up. Oh ya there isn't very
many people left in the middle class to care.
There is no doubt that the "Affordable Health Care Act" will be anything
but affordable, for most. In particular, that 60% that pay an honest tax, and
support the other 40% are going to see an increase in the cost of health care.
Also, those who are young, healthy and independent, who in the past
have chosen to forego health care, will also face an increase in health care
costs. They will now have to either purchase insurance that may be of little
benefit to them, or pay the penalty. I suspect that, depending on the cost of
health care on the exchange, many of our youth will choose to pay the penalty.
Supporters of the bill were depending upon these youth to buy
insurance, but not use it much, thus putting money into the system. If this
does not happen, the rest of us will have to pick up the difference, thus
effectively raising the cost of health care.
Fred44 asks "What are those better ways?" This is a good question, but
one that the supporters of the "Affordable (Such a terrible misnomer) Health
Care Act" chose to ignore.Any attempt to provide affordable
health care, without addressing the causes of expensive health care, are doomed
to fail at the affordable part. We as a country must thoroughly research and
identify the real causes of health care being so pricey. Then attack the
highest offenders with efforts to bring those costs down. This is the only way
to reduce the cost of health care.But it is hard, and will require
much effort. Forcing all to have insurance was a lazy way out.
All have had excess to health care.Now those who had insurance will
pay more.Seem old thing. The haves who worked, and were responsible
will be made to pay more. It's like dragging weight behind you.Of course, the working Americans didn't build that.
If we went to a single payer system, instead ofhaving a myriad of
insurance companies, whichis very inefficient, health care costs could
golower than they are now.
Onceuponatime -- if you are really interested in learning the truth about who
has done what to the middle class, go to your library and get a copy of "Who
Stole the American Dream."Then read it very carefully.
utahbluedevil and fred- you haven't subsidized me or many others like me
who are self employed and don't have insurance. Many of us who don't
have insurance, but still go to the doctor, just pay out of pocket. It's an
old fashioned idea, but it works. True, if something tragic happens, (and it has
to my family) you might have to make payments. But you having insurance either
by yourself paying, or your employer, hasn't benefited me or many like me
at all. Sure, there are many immigrants and illegals and lifelong welfare cases
who suck the system dry, but that isn't me. Not everyone who is uninsured
is that way because we are derelicts. I wouldn't buy car insurance if it
weren't a law either. Insurance is one of the biggest scams in America.
Besides, when my family needs to get in to the Dr. we get an appt easily,
because the office staff knows they will see some green, instead of having to
fill out insurance forms and waiting to be paid.
I heard an interesting comment, believe it or not on talk radio, one state I
forget which one set up health clinics for doctors to voluntary. In exchange
for their free services the state included these doctors under their liability
insurance thus saving some of the specialist 10's of thousands of dollars
per year.Of course the trail lawyers would be up in arms over this.
They had enough influence in the ACA law that tort reform was left out, so it
would be an up hill battle.
I should point out that we don't drive shiny new vehicles, have boats,
atv's and such. We don't vacation other than a trip to Fruitland now
and then, so it's not a case where we aren't buying insurance to fund
a lavish lifestyle, it's just that after '09, there isn't any
money left over to pay high insurance costs. I know the ones you guys who are
saying you're subsidizing for, and it's as maddening to me as it is
you. Many I see on welfare and food stamps, are the same ones pulling up to the
clinic or store in their shiny new Escalades with chrome rims and have
overflowing baskets of food in the market. It's disgusting!
My concern is that this bill was given a misleading name (affordable healthcare
act). Insurance reform, which is what we are talking about here, has nothing to
do with making healthcare more affordable. Making healthcare more affordable has
everything to do with changing the delivery of healthcare.
One old man,If you are really interested in learning the truth about
who has done what to the middle class, tune your radio to KNRS 105.7 between 6
a.m. and 4 p.m. then listen very carefully.
We knew this long before it was put into law --- but apparently enough people
was fooled again and voted for Obama for a second term.We get what we vote for.
Face it folks! We're going to be paying more! This is a scam
our political leaders won't be having medical insurance with.Does anyone think Barry will have anything to do with Obama care?
Fred44 and UtahBlueDevil... you need to speak to Nancy Pelosi cuz she said we
need to implement this 2500 page deal before we could understand it. How is it
you understand it when she doesn't?And after reading this
article I conclude that the "leaders" in DC are once again saying,
"Trust us. We're doing this for your own good."Am I
Thanks for this article. Overall, I'm glad for the new health care plan.
The status quo isn't working, so let's see how this new thing works.
I'm cautiously optimistic that it will be better, and that congress will
improve it over time.
@joseywales - I get where you are coming from... but even those paying cash get
a break. Go ask the finance person for your doctor if there is a difference
between what you pay, and what the insurance companies pay. For
example, when my son went on his mission, he went before Obamacare was in force.
He was over 21, not enrolled in school, because he was saving for his mission
so didn't qualify for my insurance at the time. When he had his wisdom
teach out, his bill was 30% less, because he (or should I say I) paid the bill
personally. You may not call it a subsidy, but had I come in there for the
same treatment, my insurance would have been billed at a higher rate.Our ward is home to a university hospital. We get on a regular basis people
coming to the area for acute medical care. 70% of those who come, can't
pay their full bill. I doubt you have paid for cancer treatment yet. Many
file bankruptcy as a result. That uncollected difference is paid by someone, at
that someone is the insured. BTW, number one group who default - trades people.
RockOn... not sure what Nancy Pelosi has to do with it, but she is absolutely
correct. There is not a single bill passed, even if it were only 10 pages long,
that you can predict the exact consequences - intended or not - will be.Utahs new "Drivers can't smoke in cars with their own kids
bill".... tell me, exactly how many lives will that save? What is the net
impact fiscally for having these kids not be around smoke in their cars - but
still in their homes? You can honesly tell me a single Utah Republican can give
you answers to these questions? If they do, they are lying. No one knows.
Can you tell exactly how many lives will be lost by raising speed
limits from 65 or 70 to 75. No,But you can tell often that things
in general have a positive impact. And those parts where it has unintended
consequences, you fix by modifying the bill. You don't say - we just will
not do anything because we don't have all the answer up front. Lets drop the goofy partisan junk. Do you want results, or to score political
points. If it is broke, fix it.
Not enough people cared enough to stop what is happening so, quiet down and take
your federally mandated free medicine.
@Hemlock"The ACA will "bend the cost curve down," "Healthcare costs in America have gone up the past three years at the
slowest rate in over half a century.
Every state can opt out of Obamacare if they design their own program that makes
sure at least as many people will have health insurance and is no more expensive
than Obamacare. What's stopping Utah from designing their own plan if they
really want to get out of it so badly?
@ cjbUh, no, healthcare costs won't go down with a single payer
system. You only have to look north of the border for that. Single payer =
government payer or no competition. Government/no competition = higher costs
because no incentive exists to be efficient. Obamacare is a
terrible system that will be more expensive all the way around. My company is
paying tens of thousands of dollars in Obamacare taxes that have nothing to do
with the quality of healthcare we receive. Consequence? Every employee pays
more. If we want healthcare costs to go down, we have to stop using
it for every doctor visit, every sniffle, and expect the insurance company to
pay. HMOs created the demand by covering everything with a small copay. No one
pays attention to actual costs. We need to go back to having an actual
insurance policy in case we need surgery, have a serious illness or accident and
paying our own way for routine care. Then people will shop for better prices
for visits, buy more generic prescriptions and take better care of themselves.
Some companies offer HSA plans which accomplish this in part. Put consumerism
and personal accountability back in healthcare.
Obama care had absolutely nothing to do with providing affordable health care.
If it did they would not have created 1869 new federal agencies and mandated
that all insurance policies cover all diseases, real and imagined.Obama care is all about making every American dependent upon the Federal
Government and gaining life and death control over all Americans.We
could provide a basic catastrophic care policy ($10,000 deductible) for $50 a
month and legalize real medical savings accounts. This would do wonders to
drive down the cost of health care.If we also stopped forcing
hospitals to treat non-emergencies for free and allowed them to refer
non-emergencies to area clinics as well as requiring those gaming the system to
pay their own bills (eventually) a lot of the abuse will go away.I
say we do everything in our power to make certain that Obama Care does not
work!The Republican's should also refuse to revise anything on Obama
Care. Repeal and replace should be the only option.
joseywales says: "utahbluedevil and fred- you haven't subsidized me or
many others like me who are self employed and don't have insurance. Many of
us who don't have insurance, but still go to the doctor, just pay out of
pocket."Granted, there are some who have been lucky enough to be
able to do that.But how long will your luck hold out? And if it
does run out, then what?
And Whoa Nellie said: "One old man,If you are really interested
in learning the truth about who has done what to the middle class, tune your
radio to KNRS 105.7 between 6 a.m. and 4 p.m. then listen very
carefully."I have. But I've not heard much of any TRUTH
there about anything. Lots of hatred, but not much actual truth.Wisdom comes from reading or listening to a wide variety of material from all
sides and then carefully considering the merits any of them may have. It's
called THINKING for oneself.
For those who think the uninsured drive up health care costs, you are only
partially correct. Yes, many uninsured individuals have never paid a medical
bill. There are many others, like joseywales and myself, who pay out of pocket.
But the insured are also responsible. As I pointed out previously a large
percentage of insured individuals never pay their
co-insurance/co-payment/deductible. The insured are more likely to visit the
doctor for every little ache, pain, or sniffle. This behavior raises the cost
of insurance and healthcare. Greater demand causes higher prices. The insured
are also less likely to care about how much a doctor visit, x-ray, medication,
procedure, surgery, etc,, costs because they have the ILLUSION that they
aren't paying for it. Unlike the uninsured (read: me) who looks for the
highest quality care for the lowest cost, the insured do no medical care
homework. Best example is medication costs. Recently got prescription for an
antibiotic: locally owned mom/pop pharmacy was $48; Walmart was $55, Walgreens
& CVS were over $100. Those with insurance think it doesn't matter
where they purchase the medication because they only have to worry about the
ObamaCare is just another transfer of income and wealth from young working
families to the older and more medically needy retired crowd. The Baby Boomer
generation will spend this nation into servitude, then leave the bill to be paid
by the next 2-3 generations. Social security, medicare, food stamps, federal
discretionary spending, etc., etc. are all above long-term sustainable
levels.When will the young wake up and realize that they will be
paying for all these promised freebies. All so the older generation can lead
lives filled with eating out, new cars, expensive health care, and travel. We
can't afford all this folks. We are spending 9% more than we bring in as a
nation. How long will we get away with this before the bills start coming due?
I'm surprised no one so far has noted how SPECULATIVE the article is.
Relying mainly on two sources who opposed the Affordable Care Act, the reporter
speculates that young people will not sign up for coverage, that taxes will rise
(without saying why or how) and that insurers will raise their rates. (Only in
the last paragraph does he cite the projection that overall medical insurance
rates will decline about 12% once the ACA rolls out.) The only tax
rising for the ACA currently is one on medical device makers, who sometimes have
profits as high as 50%. The Obama administration also transferred about a half
billion dollars from Medicare Advantage to cover costs, and, reduced some
payments to medical providers. None of these are consumer taxes. So, anyone
who thinks his taxes were raised to pay for ACA is just plain wrong.We will not know how many people will take advantage of the benefits of the
Act until it rolls out in 2014. The projection of seven million Americans is
modest. Certainly, it is premature to assume negative consequences.
metamoracoug: Just as you say we should not lump all uninsureds together, so
should you not lump all insureds together. I am insured, and I can
unequivocally tell you that I purchase my medications, when needed, from various
different pharmacies, as I agree with you that some are cheaper than others.And while I will admit that I didn't read the whole article, the
very first page of this article says we will have to wait and see if insurance
costs go up. I, for one, will do just that. And if there are dramatic jumps in
cost over and above what we have seen every year for the last 15 years, then you
can bet I will be calling and writing my representatives.
one old man at 6:26 pm: My family has been uninsured for 13 years. We got
several quotes for health insurance 13 years ago, the cheapest being $950/month.
In 2007, we got more quotes all coming in around $1150/month (interesting since
we had 3 adult sons out of the house by then). Using these two figures, we
would have spent $162,600 on insurance. During these 13 years our highest
annual expense has been $7500 and the average is about $3700. As I see it $162K
is a lot of money to spend on something that would not have paid us a dime back
($10K deductible). Instead, we bought property and built a second house on it
(currently owned free and clear). In case of a medical emergency, it could
presently be sold for $200. Thus, not only do we have an emergency medical fund
(now valued at significantly more than the original investment) but we also have
a wonderful place to escape to once a month or so.
Xscribe: you are correct and I apologize if I gave the impression of lumping all
insureds together. If I were a betting man - and I'm not - I would put a
large sum of money on the fact that you are the exception rather than the rule.
"If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it is free."Obamacare does exactly ZERO to increase the number of health care
providers, only shuffle how money will be confiscated by taxes ("fines")
or forced purchase of insurance, and "saving money" by cutting the
amounts paid to actual doctors.Obamcare will destroy our health care
system, the best in the world, and by default we will be stuck with a single
payer government run system. With all the efficiency and innovation and cost
reduction that is part of any government bureaucracy.This may help
religious faiths, as praying you do not get sick may provide more relief than
RE:Fred44 Your question is frightfully simiplistic and shows a complete
unwillingness to consider anything else. Everyone is for better
healthcare and for all, but Obamacare ignores untouchable principles of a
successful, civilized society such as, accountability, choice, freedom,
competition, fairness, honesty, transparency, equity and stewardship. Instead he has chosen (and those who support him) oppression, taxation, force,
pseudo equality, jealousy, punishment, preferential favors and distortion. There is a better pointing to two failed systems doesn't justify
either one. To accept a law that was passed before it was read is a sham and a
move against free people.
America should have gone with single payer. Then, let everyone have the freedom
to choose whether or not they want to participate in a government pool that they
pay into, or keep the insurance middle man that has given us the highest costs
in the world, with mediocre outcomes. All of this would be working
better if the GOP wasn't working so hard to make it fail. They have no
answers. They're content with people being vulnerable to financial ruin.
Our system of healthcare delivery puts America at a competitive disadvantage
with the rest of the civilized world. Ironic, too, how many who
don't want universal coverage for others will accept Medicare for
themselves with no problems. The pride cycle is alive and well in America.
Bluedevil- Actually what I receive is called a discount. Having been in the
retail business and now owning a service business, I have given cash discounts
for years. I have never looked at the people who pay full price as
"subsidizing" those who receive a discount. Those who pay with credit
actually cost me a little more, so are the cash patients subsidizing them? I
don't think so. It's a part of business. The fact that your ins.
company pays more than me is actually why it's a broken system. Health care
costs are ridiculous when compared worldwide. Lawsuits, malpractice
insurance,etc., has driven up costs to both providers and ins. co., so the
consumer pays the tab. Drugs that cost pennies to make are sold at thousands
percent markup. Mostly to defray future potential litigation, which happens more
and more often now. I'm sure that hospitals write off bad debt a lot more
than other industries, and maybe blue collar guys are the leaders, but we are
also the ones caught in between. Not all of us have employer access to
healthcare, and few of us can afford over 1000 month.
@UtahBlueDevil:"... each and every one of us who does have insurance
have been subsidizing the care of the uninsured for decades now."And we will continue to subsidize the care of the (formerly) uninsured...
through tax and insurance premium increases to pay for it.@Fred44:"Those of us who have health insurance have been subsidizing
health care for years now and have been experiencing double digit increases in
premiums every year. What we have been doing certainly isn't
working."The reason the uninsured are ensured is becasue they
can't afford to pay for insurance. Where do you suspect the money will
come form for the uninsured under Obamacare... From increased taxes and
insurance premiums for those who can pay, that's who.@UtahBlueDevil:"Can you tell exactly how many lives will be lost by
raising speed limits from 65 or 70 to 75?"The answer is:
Re: ". . . it is too soon to tell whether these bold creations of the
Affordable Care Act will actually bring "affordable" care to
consumers."It's not too soon. It can't and
won't.The horrendous extra costs associated with
Obamacare's punitive mandates and rationing safeguards will necessarily
cause health care costs to skyrocket.The President made the mistake
of admitting the same thing regarding his energy "policy" scams. He and
his shills won't repeat that mistake with his health care scams.They'll just ruin the best health care delivery system ever devised by
man, all the while assuring the gullible amongst us that they're saving it.
Oneoldman- I don't consider myself lucky that I can pay out of pocket. I
would rather have insurance. I haven't always been uninsured, but after the
downturn, it was either lose the house or lose the insurance. And no, I
don't have a big house. I actually pay about the same as I would for rent
to fit our family. I consider myself an "in betweener" make just too
much for any assistance, but not enough to cover high health insurance costs. My
guess is, I'm in a rather large group of Americans. I have been
lucky so far, and hopefully that will hold. Trust me, most like me worry more
than you about this for sure. It sucks. Sometimes it's overwhelming knowing
that you work your tail off to barely make it, when you could throw in the towel
and become part of the "taken care ofs" but that's not the way I
was raised, so I'm gonna keep fighting. Obamacare is just putting a band
aid on a large open bleeding wound of a system that needs overhauled before the
talk of universal healthcare enters the discussion.
3grandslams,A "frightfully simple question"? You said there
where better ways all I was suggesting was that you maybe could enlighten us
with what those better ways were. Anyone can criticize and on this message
board it appears especially easy to criticize the President, but what are the
@cjbTo claim single payer systems would lower prices is not only
patently false but historically ignorant. Competition lowers prices, PERIOD.
Government efficiency is a contradiction in terms so CJB you can look forward to
higher insurance costs, long lines, highly restricted options and death panels,
as NYT economist Paul Krugman labels them. Government monopolies
such as the old phone company, post office and military cannot be considered
highly efficient. Today's Postal Service is the prototype of
what Obamacare's single payer system will be. It's forced to operate
under outdated, inefficient and cumbersome government mandated rules. Stamps are
going up and Saturday delivery is being cut. If you think the Post Office
problems are bad, wait until Obamacare's starts.Recently, my
wife, who is 66, was told he's too old for a simple female test for women.
According to life expectancy numbers, she has almost 20 more years to live left.
That will be happening for more and more procedures and tests. Look at
Britain's NHS. It's coming to America January 1, 2014.When I hear the scream from Bountiful that "this can't be," at
least I'll know who is screaming.
@procuradorfiscal"the best health care delivery system ever
devised by man"I have lived in several places around the world.
I can categorically say that the US is the worst health care system I have
experienced. I would never want to live with it again.
Um, the US healthcare system is not the best in the world. It is, however, by
far the most expensive.As an LDS person, my main question is are we
taking care of our sick and our poor? This is a command that Jesus repeatedly
gave to his followers. In the current old system, poor people and
very sick people get the short end of the stick. If you don't have
insurance through your employer, you are out of luck. These people wait until
they are extremely sick and then go to the emergency room - the most expensive
way possible. By then they need a lot more care. And the rest of us pay for
that. Preventative care is much cheaper, and much more Christian, in my
opinion.I think it's very easy for people (myself included) who
have decent insurance to forget how it is for people less fortunate than we.
I am just guessing here but if I were to bet I would say our premiums are going
to go up ... alot ... while the quality of the coverage declines. It warms the
heart to know however that although my families premiums increase and the care
decreases I am helping to pay for Obama's army of do-nothing bums and
giving them FREE health insurance. I wonder what it takes to qualify as an
Obama-bum? Certainly my son and his family don't qualify even though he is
only 25 and a struggling college student. Yes hope n change...isn't it
Getting rid of the middle man (for profit insurance companies) would have done
more to drive down the cost of health care than anything else we could do. The
rich men with their powerful lobbies defeated that. Americans spend twice as
much on medical costs as other nations because of one word, PROFIT. The next
progression in affordable health care is to enable non-profit competition (e.g.
Credit Union, Medicare). We're moving in the right direction.
The fact that many people actually believe that this legislation will improve
things shows just how naive and ignorant people are when it comes to the
insurance industry and the dynamics of medical costs.
This is nothing new. A few years ago, when 26 year olds were allowed on their
parents insurance, is when the rates really started to rachet up. Even before
then premiums were increasing slowly every year. If you want lower
rates, start by reducing the amount of lawsuits people will file over any little
paper cut. So we reduce the premiums practicioners have to pay for their
liability ins. instead of absorbing the increases with our annual checkups.
re:HS FanI have news for you... the goal of Obamacare is eliminate
ALL competition. Barack wants a SINGLE PAYER system which would be the federal
government and enforced by the IRS. No competition means the feds can set the
price as high as they want. For those who don't demonstrate proper
political allegiance will get hit with higher premiums and denial of coverage or
perhaps no coverage at all. How do you like that direction? It's called
socialism and it IS the end game for all progressive Marxist's.
@joseywales - first of all.... I want to make it clear that my comment about
blue collar workers wasn't not aimed at you personally.... it just is what
it is - a raw statistic. Blue color jobs can be very inconsistent, rich to
poverty to rich again faster than. It is the nature of the job sometimes.But there has to be a solution for people like you, so you can afford to
protect your family so that they are not wiped out in the case of a major
medical issue arises. I don't think Obamacare is perfect. The problem is
no one is talking about fixing the problems (cost, access, etc), they are just
shouting from their bully pulpits that the other person is wrong.One
of the things Paul Ryan does have I like is a voucher system. We can preserve a
competitive system, allowing for choice, and the ability to upgrade plans if you
like, and still be able to cover those most in need. Meidicare fails because it
is loaded with high demand people. If everyone paid into the system - the
average cost for all would be much cheaper.
It scares me that Obamacare seems to be forcing private insurance out of
business and leaving us all ...eventually ...with nothing but Obamacare. I
recall living in a small town in Nevada that had one grocery store. The next
closet town was 2 hours away. The prices at the store were insane - $4 for a
gallon of milk but you had no choice but to pay. Finally a storehouse market and
a Smiths moved in providing competition and the prices dropped through the
floorboards on food. The little store with the jacked up prices went out of
business. People seem to have so much trust in the Federal government and I
can't understand why. Do you trust the IRS? I don't. Anything run at
the Federal level is bound to be mismanaged and wasteful as well as terribly
expensive and that includes Obamacare. For a year or two the Federal govt will
be helping with these state exchanges but then each state exchange will be left
on its own to implement all these mandated regulations and that is where the
trouble beings for all of us. Health care could become unaffordable except for
the wealthy. Ironic isn't it.