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Letters: Environment hypocrisy

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  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    We may be stuck for the time being with the transportation system, fuel types and other factors that add to air pollution. But does that mean we should not be looking for good solutions for the future?

    If we do nothing, nothing will change.

  • LDS Tree-Hugger Farmington, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 9:31 a.m.

    What I can't understand is the hypocriacy of not knowing the differnece between "reducing" emissions, and jumping to an extremists 100% elimimination of any and all emissions.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Feb. 14, 2013 9:56 a.m.

    Another way to look at it: The people who went to the Capitol are trying to solve the problem while the letter writer mocks them and does nothing.

  • Dave D Pocatello, ID
    Feb. 14, 2013 10:07 a.m.

    Again, to call these individuals hypocrites despite having no evidence who drove alone, or who carpooled or took public transit is counterproductive and presumptive. Why don't we all act instead of pointing fingers?

  • 4601 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 10:20 a.m.

    We all want and need clean air, that's a given. Speak with anyone who has asthma or COPD about the ill effects of Utah's pollution. Not many people, including our legislators, are in favor of smog. The demonstrators should have advocated for effective, concrete proposals along with explaining the costs involved. Otherwise they are little different from the man on the street corner shouting "Repent."

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 11:01 a.m.

    We're going to be almost totally dependent on petroleum based energy for the lifetime of everyone today even if we start an aggressive alternative energy programme today. It's a good idea to do that, but let's acknowledge what it will take to make that happen, and what we have to do in the mean time.

  • Mike in Cedar City Cedar City, Utah
    Feb. 14, 2013 11:13 a.m.

    I did not see the demonstration, but although my wife and I were raised in Davis County, when we retired and returned to Utah we settled in the south of the state, mostly for this very reason. The quality of life along the "front" has materially declined since we were children.

  • ugottabkidn Sandy, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 11:17 a.m.

    Larry, I guess it's just too bad so live with it, eh even though it's costing us millions of moola in productivity and lost revenue not to mention healthcare costs? FYI, 4601 there were specific proposals offered to Gary the Gov and the demonstrations were more than what you implied. It's time for leadership to look past the little picture and look to the big picture.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 12:21 p.m.

    To "4601" but the Utah air does not cause asthma, and this is how we know.

    If you look at graphs showing the Utah air quality over the past 30 years or more, you see that the air quality has been improving. Now, if you look at asthma rates, you would expect to see higher rates of asthma with each increasing age group. This is where your arguement falls apart. Those people that are 60 and over have about the same asthma rates as the youth. If the pollution causes asthma, why is it that those who grew up with higher pollution have the same asthma rates as the youth growing up with cleaner air?

    Also, Utah's air is only bad for short periods of time, how can that cause long lasting problems? Think carpal tunnel, is that cause by short bursts of repetitive movements or prolonged exposure?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 12:30 p.m.

    @Redshirt
    "Also, Utah's air is only bad for short periods of time, how can that cause long lasting problems? "

    That logic would suggest that it'd be totally fine to smoke an occasional cigarette as long as it wasn't done frequently.

  • LDS Tree-Hugger Farmington, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 12:48 p.m.

    RedShirt
    USS Enterprise, UT

    Also, Utah's air is only bad for short periods of time, how can that cause long lasting problems? Think carpal tunnel,

    ============

    Think urinating in a pool.
    Pollution doesn't just magically go away,
    it builds and it builds until eventually it makes all of it unfit for humans and otehr life.

    BTW - why should we worry RedShirt -
    You tell us that the earth makes fossil fuels faster than we can burn it,
    that the earth is only 6,000 years old,
    and that Jesus is going to come down and claen up the mess we made.

    I read the scriptures, listen to the prophets, and I don't believe you.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 1:49 p.m.

    To "LDS Tree-Hugger" but pollution does go away, or at least most of the pollution goes away after a rain storm or when a snow storm comes through.

    Where does it say that the earth is only 6000 years old? I have never seen anyplace in teh scriptures that say that the earth is only 6000 years old. We know that since Adam it has been about 6000 years, but we don't know how long the creative time was. The label of a "day" during the creative period was invented during the translations and copying process of the Bible.

    I have never said that the earth makes fossil fuels faster than we can burn it. I have said that the US has a lot of fuel, enough to last at least 100 years at our current consumption rate.

    To "atl134" yes, you wouldn't have long term damage if you had one cigarette every once in a while, as long as it wasn't all the time. The same can be said about pollution from car exhaust. Think about when you mow the lawn, any pollution controls there and how close are you to the exhaust?

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 1:59 p.m.

    To "LDS Tree-Hugger" also, even in your analogy, anything bad from uninating in a pool will be filtered out or rendered harmless by the chemicals in the pool.

    If pollution doesn't go away, why is it that the weather man always tells us that once the storm or weather front comes through that the air will be cleaned out?

    You may read the scriptures, but you don't seem to read what I post or even have any idea where I stand on the issue of clean air in Utah.

    The other problem that you and the environmentalists have not dealt with is wild fires in the Salt Lake Valley, west desert, Nevada, and California. There have been times when those fires have dumped a lot of pm2.5 pollution into the Salt Lake Valley. How do you plan on regulating the pollution caused by fires? We seem to be effected by those fires several times during the summer, more than by cars.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 2:09 p.m.

    Mr. Jewkes's insinuation of hypocrisy would carry more weight and might actually be persuasive if it were based on fact and not idle speculation ("I could not help but ponder..."). The path of attributing hypocrisy to one's opponents is an easy one, but one fraught with peril, for hypocrisy knows no ideology. One could just as easily bring up the Republican legislator in Tennessee, an outspoken traditional family values, pro-life man, who was caught on tape urging his pregnant mistress to get an abortion. At least that was a factual case of hypocrisy and not the product of mere pondering. Or the fervently anti-gay preacher who, well, you know. The list goes on and on. There are many across the political spectrum whose behavior doesn't match their words. The sword of hypocrisy allegations should be used carefully and selectively, for it cuts in all directions. It is safer when it is based on reality and not supposition.

    FWIW, the environmentally aware folks I know try to walk the talk earnestly (and literally, they actually walk) as much as possible. They may slip now and then, but the intent is good.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 3:09 p.m.

    "We know that since Adam it has been about 6000 years"

    Haha. Hahaha. Haha.
    Hahahaha.

    I love religious people.

    - You know, only among conservatives will you find people that argue FOR polution.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Feb. 14, 2013 3:29 p.m.

    If we could stop Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama from blowing so much smoke, all of us could breath better.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 9:47 p.m.

    Redshirt,
    I don't think 4601 is arguing that the particulate pollution is causing asthma. He is saying that people who already have asthma react poorly when air pollution levels are high. Those who have preexisting respiratory conditions are the most vulnerable to effects. Asthma also is not the only documented health effect of PM2.5 And these inversions have lasted for weeks this year, hardly a short period of time.

    mountanman,
    Nothing substantive to say on the matter, but feeling the need to be seen & recognized, I see?

  • ljeppson Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 9:53 p.m.

    "...Also, Utah's air is only bad for short periods of time, how can that cause long lasting problems?" It is inadvisable to exercise out of doors for about two months of the year - 1/6 of the year. This is ridiculous. Of course we have built our society around the automobile since WW II, so most folks didn't have much choice but to go to the Capitol in an auto. To fix our air problems I propose that we go to an even/odd system of some type so that most of us cannot use our cars half the time, using public transport instead. Seniors could get special plate stickers exempting them. Our we serious about this or not?

  • The Real Maverick Orem, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 10:02 p.m.

    Soooooo let's just keep kicking the can down the road and do nothing. Must be a republican.

  • Emajor Ogden, UT
    Feb. 14, 2013 10:30 p.m.

    Redshirt,
    I don't think 4601 is arguing that the particulate pollution is causing asthma. He is saying that people who already have asthma react poorly when air pollution levels are high. Those who have preexisting respiratory conditions are the most vulnerable to effects. Asthma also is not the only documented health effect of PM2.5 And these inversions have lasted for weeks this year, hardly a short period of time.

    mountanman,
    Nothing substantive to say on the matter, but feeling the need to be seen & recognized, I see?

  • george of the jungle goshen, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 6:54 a.m.

    How much oxygen is in the air at the altitude the smog is. How mush pollution does a house with natural gas furnaces, water hearers, dryers and cooking stoves put out. How far away are coal electric plants. Car pooling is a good Idea. how about having a way to heat every one's house and water.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Feb. 15, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID
    If we could stop Hillary Clinton and Barrack Obama from blowing so much smoke, all of us could breath better.

    3:29 p.m. Feb. 14, 2013

    ==============

    See all other postings in "GOP is too extreme" --

    Everything is Obama's fault, even Utah's dirty air.

    Pathetic.

  • The Sensible Middle Bountiful, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 10:10 a.m.

    If the front runner and every UTA and school bus and police car ran on natural gas that would help.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Feb. 15, 2013 10:40 a.m.

    The Sensible Middle
    Bountiful, UT
    If the front runner and every UTA and school bus and police car ran on natural gas that would help.

    10:10 a.m. Feb. 15, 2013

    ============

    True,
    but a Bus and an SUV or monster truck get the same mileage, and produce the same amount of exhaust.

    One carries 75+ people,
    The trains carry 300+ people,
    and the SUVs and trucks carry only 1.

    BTW - there's 100,000 times as many trucks and SUVs on the roads, as there is buses and the number of trains can be counted on one hand.

    We should focus on the biggest problems first.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 11:40 a.m.

    To "Open Minded Mormon" the problem isn't the trucks and cars. The problem is the significant time it takes to use mass transit.

    Think of it this way. Would you rather drive your car for 20 minutes to get to work or would you use up 90 minutes to 2 hours or more? In other words, do you want to be gone from your family an additional 10 to 15 hours or more per week?

    In addition, your idea of saving fuel by using mass transit only works when the bus or train is full. For example, busses operating at full capacity are equal to 36 individual cars. However, they typically run at about 25% capacity. That means they pollute like 36 cars, but only replace 8 actual cars. Doesn't that mean that they pollute MORE than the equivalent traffic?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    "Also, Utah's air is only bad for short periods of time, how can that cause long lasting problems?"

    "To "atl134" yes, you wouldn't have long term damage if you had one cigarette every once in a while, as long as it wasn't all the time. The same can be said about pollution from car exhaust. Think about when you mow the lawn, any pollution controls there and how close are you to the exhaust?"

    "but pollution does go away,"

    "If pollution doesn't go away, why is it that the weather man always tells us that once the storm or weather front comes through that the air will be cleaned out?"

    Hmnn, you be the judge on rather this conservative is saying if there is no problem with the inversion pollution. Conservatives are FOR businesses not being subject to regulations, ie, pollution regulations. Conservatives very much have no problem with pollution. And in this case, if you are not against it, you are for it.

    By the way, the sic goes after the word that is misspelled, not before.

  • Grover Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 4:05 p.m.

    Hey, here it is! Finally an argument that involves science that the nabobs of "no" cannot deny. You can see it. You can smell it. If it gets much thicker you can begin to touch and taste it! The answer to people trying to start addressing the problem is the same as the Governor to the Docs who delivered the petition..."Hey did you carpool to get here?" i.e. more meaningless hot air. When was the last time the Governor (or the letter writer) walked to work?

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 8:27 p.m.

    What sarcasm VST?

    Solutions? Okay. Vote for no Republicans (or other politicians) until they start believing in the reality based world. Until they start recognizing the serious problems faced by the world and the human race by the degradation of the enviroment.

    And no I'm not a "hugger", although I like trees. But I am someone that recognizes the reality of a situation. I can see the problems we are facing with fresh water, now and down the road. I see the problems with the oceans. I recognize that we are in another great extinction. I am aware of the plight of the rain forests. I recognize the huge stresses we are putting on our ecosystem. And this is the legacy we are leaving for our children's children.

    My solution? First, vote for no Republican, no conservatives. They are blind to this threat. They do not live in the real world. That first.

  • Badgerbadger Murray, UT
    Feb. 15, 2013 10:32 p.m.

    Hey Mark,

    When your president tells you that republicans want dirty air and dirty water, he is lying.

    When you repeat it, you are lying.

    Just thought you should know.

  • mark Salt Lake City, UT
    Feb. 16, 2013 12:39 a.m.

    Badger, he is our president. Or are you not an American?

    I need nobody to tell me what to believe. I have the ability to study issues. And in this case I have. If you are so blind not to see no one can open your eyes for you.

    Republicans do not even admit to there being a problem. How can they possibly be expected to solve it? No, being ignorant to this issue means the Republicans very much will accept dirty air and dirty water. When Republicans push against regulations, what regulations is it you think they are talking about? When they want to eliminate the EPA, what do you think they are saying?

    If you have walked all this time with your eyes closed, perhaps it is time to open them.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Feb. 16, 2013 7:33 a.m.

    These arguments are just stupid. I have no idea why anyone would be against working on cleaning up or improving the inversion layer in Salt Lake and Utah valleys. It makes no sense why this would be a partisan issue.

    1) Technology is fixing some of this problem. For example, Dodge just announced a clean diesel RAM 1500 that is expected to get up to 30 miles per gallon highway - and produce next to no particulate. That is a full 50% better than the same truck got just 10 years ago.

    2) Alternatives - hybrids are becoming truly viable. Last year over 440,000 hybrids were sold - a 71% jump. All electric cars went from non-existant to just about 1 percent of car sales.

    This is not an either or calculation. When the first smog emissions standards came in in the 70s, car performance suffered. Not, engines produce 2x the performance per cubic liter engines size as before. We have 3 litre engines delivering over 400 hp, and still reasonable mpg.... unimaginable 20 years ago.

    We have to start somewhere... and now is a good time to start..