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Religious tensions play out in inauguration

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  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 11:36 a.m.

    Your religion has no place in my government.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 11:47 a.m.

    Pagan - Your government has no place in my religion

  • Whoa Nellie American Fork, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    Since when did the clergy have the corner on prayer?

  • Whoa Nellie American Fork, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 11:54 a.m.

    A government without religion has no place in my country.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 11:56 a.m.

    Lol.

    Ok.

    Tell me how my government is in your religion?

    And no, accepting my tax dollars to help fund your religion apparently does not count.

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 12:00 p.m.

    As a gay man, I've made this point before regarding, e.g., Giglio. But I think it bears repeating.

    Gays are *not* looking for conservative Christians (or anyone else) to approve of gay relationships. it's a free country. and we accept everyone's right to say what they believe.

    What we *won't* accept, and continually fight against, is anyone's using inflammatory language toward us (or toward any other group of productive, law-abiding Americans).

    It's one thing to say, "I don't believe God accepts homosexuality." Fine, no problem.

    It's quite another to call us "an abomination" (Giglio) or "similar to incest and pedophilia" (Warren).

    So, no, we're not trying to push traditional Christians off the stage. But we refuse to let ourselves be cast by them (or by anyone else) as demons. We've been subjected to too much violence already because of that.

    No more.

  • embarrassed Utahn! Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 12:00 p.m.

    "Christian conservatives are asking what these choices say about their place in broader society. Does their absence from the inaugural podium mean they're being pushed out of public life?"

    I certainly hope so! Self-important self-righteousness is what causes so many Utahns to display their ugly unpatriotic ranting. Keep your religious beliefs OUT of my face. I don't care how "christian" you are, screaming foul doesn't convince me at all.

  • Irony Guy Bountiful, Utah
    Jan. 21, 2013 12:36 p.m.

    My entire life I've heard prayers delivered by non-clergy. Why is it an issue?

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 12:42 p.m.

    I love the choice of Mrs. Evers-Williams as choice to do a prayer. On Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. Day and being a survivor of her own husband being killed at the hands of racists, her having hope in our country and God makes her more than an appropriate choice for this duty. My own faith believes in a lay clergy and it isn't necessary for "clergy" to have to say a prayer, any prayer or this prayer.

  • Janet Ontario, OR
    Jan. 21, 2013 12:50 p.m.

    On this day we who are religious should be grateful that the president chose to say, "So help me God" when taking the oath of office. We should be grateful for the prayers in inaugural events. Who cares who said them? I can't see how someone else's ecumenical prayer ever hurt an athiest; no one is being coerced into saying "Amen."

  • xscribe Colorado Springs, CO
    Jan. 21, 2013 12:57 p.m.

    A government without religion is exactly what we need!

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 1:02 p.m.

    To keep government out of religion, keep religion out of government.

  • SS MiddleofNowhere, Utah
    Jan. 21, 2013 1:05 p.m.

    All of you objecting to religion should read a little about history. Maybe the Declaration of Independence or the Constitution. Go read a history book. This country was founded on Christian principles and wouldn't be the same country today without them. If you don't like it you are free to leave. It's your God given right!

  • hmataele West Valley City, 00
    Jan. 21, 2013 2:00 p.m.

    On a day when we celebrate a group of people changing our country for the better through protests, we must also remember it is also Christian principle to do so. The founding fathers welcomed protests and assembly and free speech its in the constitution. If you don't like it do something, run for office, get an initiative, write your representative, protest, Don't just leave, make a change.

  • Mister J Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 2:23 p.m.

    To SS...

    ***Principles not religion. Big difference.
    ***You and your ilk w/ the conform or leave diatribe are getting old.

  • mattrick78 Cedar City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 2:30 p.m.

    The widow of slain civil rights hero isn't allowed to pray? It is one prayer out of millions that will be offered this day. Some people need to get over it.

  • gdog3finally West Jordan, Utah
    Jan. 21, 2013 2:31 p.m.

    As much as a significant volume of evangelicals and Utahns have shunned all things Obama, I wish to point out that he has shown himself to value religion time and time again. All the associations he has had have been way too dissected to represent everything Obama is at his core, catering to negative views some conservatives wish for him to have for condemnation.

    Differing opinions is not a negative. I understand that. Hopefully they will be sustained in a democratic tradition, one outside of unreasonable one sided opposition, which is not constructive in a democracy in my view.

    We can support our president and still oppose him at times. It's not that complicated. Respecting Obama's efforts as president is all together different than inductively objecting everything Obama does as communist before legitimate examination.

    President Obama loves this country, and buying into cable news slanderous propaganda aimed on making him non-American and socialist at every turn are very dogmatically paranoid and unfair. Be not like a delusional Glenn Beck, and see things in a fair and balanced way (NOT Fox News definition).

  • Pac_Man Pittsburgh, PA
    Jan. 21, 2013 3:10 p.m.

    Even as a Christian, I don't understand why people think this country was "founded on Christian principles."

    What does that mean exactly? The country was founded on a system of government that does not exist in the Bible or any scripture. Nor are there are not ethereal principles inherent in this country's founding that are distinctive Christian.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Jan. 21, 2013 3:22 p.m.

    With the endorsement of the LGBT by Obama, has started the downfall of this country. We do need religion in Government. A country without religion in Government will slowly and completely waste away. The Constitution of this country, a divine document is on the verge of hanging by a thread by the incompetence of this individual who calls himself a President.

  • no fit in SG St.George, Utah
    Jan. 21, 2013 3:25 p.m.

    Many of you may be unaware that there are some religious faiths who keep their churches open all of the time. For example, Catholics may go to Mass every day and pray at their Catholic Church throughout most of the day.
    Possibly some people may find this helpful in their lives? One could investigate. Possibly this could be initiated at their church?
    Those who have a great need for prayer to be just the way they choose, by a special person they select, and at a place they find to their liking.....
    Could that solve the conundrum?

  • Miss Piggie Ogden, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 3:28 p.m.

    @Fred44:
    "Regardless of your political persuasion this was a great speech filled with hope and belief in the greatness of America."

    This was nothing but political rhetoric. His hop and belief is to turn America, the land of the free and the home of the brave, into the land of socialism and the home of wealth redistribution.

    "Is it racism..."

    Typical Obama supporter... when you get in a bind play the race card.

    "The President has an approval rating around 50%..."

    Almost a repeat of Jimmy Carter.

    "...the republicans in congress have a single digit approval rating."

    Most of which are Democrats.

    @Wonder:
    "Miss Piggie, you are not telling the truth. You did not have to pay any penalty on your 2012 tax return for not 'signing up' for Obamacare."

    Now you tell me. I could-a been watching the ceremony... with a clothespin on my nose.

    "Telling lies is a big no no..."

    Tell that to the guy who just pledged to uphold the US Constitution.

  • TA1 Alexandria, VA
    Jan. 21, 2013 3:44 p.m.

    I am truly grateful that the President has chosen to be inclusive of many groups in this country - I would not be surprised if Jesus were to do exactly the same thing. If we profess to be true Disciples of Christ, perhaps the President provides us all with a valuable example and lesson.

  • Y_is_for_Yale Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 4:03 p.m.

    If there was any "religious tension" present in today's Inauguration speech, it is the tension created by media sources like the Deseret News.

    I think we would all agree that both "religion" and "government" have made worthy contributions to humanity (BTW, the opposite is also true).

    Let's not fall in the trap of ostracizing one another about the merits of either. By doing so, we are only carrying out the "tensions" that a particular segment of the media wants to confer upon us.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 4:16 p.m.

    I, too want religion in my government. I want it to be my religion, however, because yours is kind of flaky. I say that with all due respect, because we both bring the same evidence to the table. That being the case, maybe we're better off to keep religion personal, and out of government.

  • Blue Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 4:23 p.m.

    This is beyond absurd. Of the myriad real-world pressing challenges we face as nation, conservatives decide that >>who's praying

  • Wastintime Los Angeles, CA
    Jan. 21, 2013 4:23 p.m.

    Continually looking for reasons to take offense or excuses to justify offense merely hardens hearts and numbs the soul.

    Strip away all the labels--Protestant, Catholic, Atheist and the titles--Bishop, Pastor, Priest, President--they are all man's conventions. We will one day stand before God--naked--except for our hearts and souls. It isn't going to matter the labels we used, all that matters is how we treated our brothers and sisters--did we love them as ourselves? Did we love them as God loves us?

    Stop using religion as a political tool, before you turn all away from God and goodness.

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 4:47 p.m.

    @Wastintime

    Your words reminded me of the many accounts of Near-Death Experiences I've read over the years.

    According to most people who have had those experiences, we're asked to review our lives on "the other side"--not by a harsh,judgmental Ruler ready to cast us into hell, but by a loving Source who wants us to learn from our mistakes.

    And there are two emphases to this review:

    (1) How much did we try to learn while we were in this life?

    (2) How much did we love while we were in this life?

    No one was ever asked, "What religion were you while you were in this life?"

  • barndog48 AMERICAN FORK, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 4:49 p.m.

    Why do we have to pray at every government ceremony and function, if there was less prayin maybe there would be less friction among the good christian folk, I dont think the atheists would say much about who didnt get to pray.

  • Tolstoy salt lake, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 5:18 p.m.

    @ Whoa Nellie: If you don't want a government without religion, you are in the wrong country.

    Although the Declaration of Independence is one of out founding documents, it is not actually a governing document.

    The governing document is the Constitution, and the only mentions of religion it has are to stress that there is not a religious litmus test for a position in government, that individuals have freedom of religion, and it states the date as "Year of Our Lord."

    That's it. There is nothing in the Constitution that directly ties the government of the United States to any religion.

  • OCoug Ogden, UT
    Jan. 21, 2013 5:55 p.m.

    Aaaahhhh healthy debate. One of the things that makes this country great. No problem with who said the prayer, just glad that there was a prayer. For those who say we shouldn't have prayers, what does it matter? If you don't believe in it, no harm, if you do believe in it then you believe it helps this country. Prayer is a right that you don't have to participate in. You are more than free to ignore it, turn on your ipod, etc.

  • TimBehrend Auckland NZ, 00
    Jan. 21, 2013 6:04 p.m.

    I expect all the Constitutional fundamentalists, knowing that the saintly Founding Men kept religious ceremony separate from the inaugural ritual, will now demand the same. That is, unless their constitutional fundamentalism is no more than rhetoric, or is limited only to the Second Amendment and the implements of violence.

  • Phillip M Hotchkiss Malta, Mt
    Jan. 21, 2013 6:05 p.m.

    Ronald Reagan in one of his sppeches talked about separation of Church and State . It was for the protection Of the Churches from the Goverment. not word for word but the same meaning. I think you can find his speeches of religion on u tube

  • Wyominguy Buffalo, WY
    Jan. 21, 2013 6:34 p.m.

    I do not like the changes our current leadership represents, its that simple. ( and its my right not to like them) During the election Obama used terms like "we support equality" as though they are the only ones! It just seems to me that Americans are not well represented when the President takes an in your face attitude and that is what I see more often than not from him.

    In my opinion the President USES religion, if we look at his past affiliations with a Radical Anti white preacher and then his shift to a more moderate position for the election then his choice of a foul mouthed VP and the use of Disgraced and immoral Bill Clinton during the election...well its clear to me he is a man with zero morals period! So for him to say "So help me God" during his swearing is to me is a mockery of religion and God period.

  • xscribe Colorado Springs, CO
    Jan. 21, 2013 7:02 p.m.

    Hey, Miss Piggy, what was Bush's approval rating when he left office? What was his highest and lowest? Bush came in when the country was doing well, had a 90 percent approval rate, and squandered that down to 25 by the time he left office.

    Obama came in when the country was going down the tubes, had a 69 percent approval rate. It went as low as 38, and now he enjoys a 51 percent approval rate, kind of the difference in the vote. Seems to me Obama has had a consistent approval rating, and Bush plunged like a stone in water. 90 to 25, and you're going to bring up that Obama is at 51?

  • xscribe Colorado Springs, CO
    Jan. 21, 2013 7:11 p.m.

    George W. had moral issues. Cheney was foul-mouthed. But apparently those guys were okay? Why is that?

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 21, 2013 9:45 p.m.

    Can't remember seeing so much hubbub over a bigger non-issue. But thank you all (a fair number of you at least) for reminding me of the genius of Jefferson and the "wall of separation."

  • SS MiddleofNowhere, Utah
    Jan. 21, 2013 11:39 p.m.

    @ Mister J,
    You don't get Christian principles without a Christian religion.

    @Pac_Man,
    Again, I point you in the direction of a history book for your answer as to what Christian principles built this country. You can read so many instances where the founding fathers quoted from the bible and used prayer as guidance in making decisions that shaped the future of the young nation. Even the prayer offered today at the inauguration is a tradition that has been handed down from them.

    People like to make everything a technicality and use word play to twist what is the truth. This is a Christian nation built on Christian principles, which came from the Christian religion. I will say again, if you don't like it you don't have to accept it, but you have absolutely no right to try and erase that history, nor do you have the right to get rid of it in our current society.

  • Joggle Big Island, HI
    Jan. 22, 2013 3:43 a.m.

    If a Christian nation had been the intent of the founders, they would have put that in the Constitution, front and center. Yet the text of the Constitution contains no references to God, Jesus Christ, or Christianity. That document does not state that our country is an officially Christian nation. The First Amendment bars all laws “respecting an establishment of religion” and protects “the free exercise thereof.” Nothing here indicates that the latter provision applies only to Christian faiths. The Declaration’s reference to “the Creator” is plainly deistic so no support of Christianity there! Key founders such as James Madison and Thomas Jefferson opposed mixing church and state. The key Founders were not Conservative Christians and likely would not have supported an officially Christian nation. The Christian nation founded on Christian principals is a myth that has many supporters among the religious right, but that doesn’t mean it has validity. History supports that The Constitution is a secular document, and nowhere does it appeal to Christianity as a guiding force. SS needs to further his/her reading of history because history doesn't support his/her claim!

  • LadyMoon Orlando, FL
    Jan. 22, 2013 6:18 a.m.

    Sure, lots of prayers being offered. I have one. I pray this next four years go rapidly before our eyes and pray America gets out of this...alive!

  • donn layton, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 9:26 a.m.

    RE: Xscribe,A government without religion is exactly what we need!??
    Obedience to God’s word(The Bible) is the only way you l have protection from this: In 2011 Planned Parenthood performed abortion every 94 seconds.
    (A)First abortion (B)then Homosexual marriage, (C) Is paedophilia next on the Liberal agenda ?
    In 1976 the(liberal) National Council for Civil Liberties, the respectable (and responsible) pressure group now known as Liberty, made a submission to parliament's criminal law revision committee. It caused barely a ripple. "Childhood sexual experiences, willingly engaged in with an adult," it read, "result in no identifiable damage … The real need is a change in the attitude which assumes that all cases of paedophilia result in lasting damage

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 9:33 a.m.

    Who teaches honesty?

    I know government punishes the liar, but the lesson there is "Don't get caught."

    We're creating a nation of thieves and liars if we don't at least admit that many virtues require supernatural faith to expect most to adhere to it.

    What motives does a man have to be kind, or share his wealth with the downtroddden?

    Government takes a man's means, but there's no charity in it, because of compulsion. Yet, in this country millions give billions every year of their own free will to causes that matter motivated solely due to good will.

    Who will teach good?

    Government teaches what is popular, what is acceptable by consensus, but good comes by inspiration not committees. Good requires sacrifice and fortitude of spirit, and compassion in the face of incomplete understanding.

    Justice? Patience? Mercy? Faith? Hope? Grace? Kindness? Service? Holiness? Decency? Self-discipline? Tolerance? Morality and so forth? All require a nod toward the Divine--toward a desire that reaches beyond.

    (Isaiah 5:13) Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge: and their honourable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst

  • Bob A. Bohey Marlborough, MA
    Jan. 22, 2013 9:36 a.m.

    Much ado about nothing IMVHO.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 9:38 a.m.

    As a direct rebuttal against the Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, newly elected President Thomas Jefferson reminded the country what I remind everyone today:

    "And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.

    "But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We are all Republicans. We are all [Democrats]. If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it."

    The only danger to American freedom is the abandonment of reason, for then error of opinion runs amok and we return to the dark and bloody days when religiously-appointed and sustained tyrants ruled the earth.

  • Incite Full Layton, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 12:24 p.m.

    So gays, now that you are free of oppression, and have power, what will you do with it?

  • non believer PARK CITY, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 12:42 p.m.

    To SS

    Oh how wrong you are that America was built on Christian values

    "The Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion..." Our founding Fathers 1797!

    It is amazing how misinformed so many of our citizens truly are!

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 1:43 p.m.

    To explain my comment from yesterday:

    Government is in my religion when they establish a protected class and then punish a church for not supporting that class. Gay marriage laws have turned homosexuality into a protected status, then states threaten to remove tax-exempt status or punish individuals for running their business by their Christian values.

    The Bible is clear that homosexuality is sin. Believing the Bible does not make me a bigot. It is telling that the Bible never changes, but society does.

    I have gay friends. Sexual preference is not a determining factor in our friendships. We just don't talk about it. We are all Children of God, and He loves us all the same. Even those who deny His existence.

    This whole problem goes away if government sanctions civil unions, and churches perform marriages. That is probably too easy a solution for a society that just wants to argue.

    And BTW - I voted for Obama. The threat of seeing the poor die in the streets under a Pres Romney was more scary to me than a president who supports gay marriage.

    We CAN all get along, it just takes a little work.....

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 22, 2013 3:30 p.m.

    @RedWings – “The Bible is clear that homosexuality is sin.”

    I liked most of what you wrote… it sounded thoughtful and reasonable and not at all like much of the knee jerk hate speech we so often see on this topic.

    But I would ask that you reflect on what you wrote above. I think you’ll find that where the Bible condemns homosexuality is also in the same book that condemns a laundry list of actions that no one today believes raises any moral dilemma (e.g., eating shell fish or wearing certain cloth).

    And this is also the same book that requires you to stone people for all sorts of offenses – working on Sunday, being a non-virgin on your wedding night, worshipping other Gods (sorry Hindus).

    So the question is, why are some religious folks today focusing solely on this one issue when they have clearly (and rightly) discarded most of the other directions found in books like Leviticus and Deuteronomy?

  • Rural sport fan DUCHESNE, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 4:08 p.m.

    no fit...most people in Utah probably think a man can pray anywhere he is at, that it does NOT require a special person to do it for them, and God that will hear them regardless.

    Oddly enough, in the predominant Utah religion, lay people are saying the prayers and running things on a daily basis. I am not certain anyone in Utah, that belongs to that church, is upset with a lay person giving the prayer at the inauguration. If they are, they probably need to reconsider their position, and simply be thankful a prayer was said, at all.

    Those that think Obama is not a socialist need to learn what socialism is...because he is absolutely doing things in a socialist way. And I doubt that Obama loves this country, if he did, he wouldn't be consistently doing things that divide us. His wife is on record saying quite the opposite of herself, as well. I think Obama loves power, as do far too many politicians, and that leads to doing things that benefit the people you owe, instead of benefiting the country.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 4:47 p.m.

    The purpose of religion is to enslave the minds of men. The reason for religion is to control the efforts and wealth of people by playing on the most primary drive of all life, the drive to survive. The fear of death is the greatest and most universal weakness of all human beings and it provides the avenue to get inside a persons head.

    Religion is good, it gives a person the calm determination to do good. But beyond the individual religion has a terrible reputation. In all of history there is little to show the good that religion has done for civilization and the general welfare of people, but there are mountains of evidence of the harm.

    The actions of religions betray their true nature. If they were truly the voice of God and had a path to everlasting life they would have no need to advertise and thrust their cause in our faces. Yet they do so with their public displays of jewelry, clothing, mannerisms, buildings and insistence that others follow their lead.

    It is their great power that we must fear and prevent them from taking over the government.

  • A Scientist Provo, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 5:39 p.m.

    I think Lennay Kekau should have given the prayer. That would have solved the problem.

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Jan. 22, 2013 6:07 p.m.

    Tyler D:

    Thanks you for your comment.

    First, there are many New Testament scriptures which condemn homosexuality: Romans 1:27, 1 Cor 6:9, 1 Tim 1:10, Jude 1:7. I believe that the power of procreation are meant only to be used by one man and one woman in the bonds of marriage.

    That said, I understand that others do not share my belief. We all have our Agency, or freed to choose our actions. For me to restrict that in others is to go against God. Christ loved the sinners but hated the sin. As His follower, I should be expected to do no less.

    I have no animosity toward anyone for their choices. I do not fear gay people; I have had many friends and associates that are gay. I do not love them less because of this. And I am not saying that homosexuality is a "choice".

    However, I cannot say I follow Jesus if I do not have the integrity to try to follow His commandments and doctrines.....

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 23, 2013 9:43 a.m.

    @RedWings

    Again, thoughtful comments…

    My point was simply that if one takes the entire Bible as the literal word of God (vs. the writings of Bronze Age men doing their best in their own time & culture) and is going to follow it to the letter, it would be very easy to slip into hypocrisy if one were to pick and choose which directions apply to our world today and which do not.

    And if you’re not going to pick & choose, wouldn’t that require that you do not eat shell fish, do not wear blended fabrics, and stone your neighbor when you see him mowing his lawn on Sunday (at the very least glare at him menacingly)?

    Perhaps the answer lies in what Paul said – “the letter kills but the Spirit gives life.” And perhaps we should be mindful that the folks Jesus consistently called out were the hypocrites and the ones following the letter of the law without love in their hearts.

    But it sounds like you know this already and so I applaud you for it… best to you.

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 23, 2013 11:17 a.m.

    @RedWings

    "Government is in my religion when they establish a protected class and then punish a church for not supporting that class."

    Could you be more specific on that? How in any way is the government threatening to punish a church for not supporting gays?

    Do you mean that, if churches get involved in trying to defeat gay rights legislation, they're threatened with losing their tax-exempt status? But that would only be fair, since gays pay taxes and churches don't.

    Do you mean the constantly-claimed threat by churches that the government will force them to perform gay marriages, even if that goes against those churches' beliefs?

    It's been specified in every piece of gay marriage legislation that I'm aware of, that any church which can't accept gay marriage will be exempt from performing them.

    Why, anyway, would gays want to celebrate their love in a church which condemns that love? Maybe a few ultra-activists would demand that "on principle," but I doubt it could ever be implemented.

    So could you please tell us how government is trying to get your church to support gays?

  • RedWings CLEARFIELD, UT
    Jan. 23, 2013 1:35 p.m.

    Tyler - Thank you again for your comments. I am enjoying our conversation.

    My understanding on the Old Testament requirements is that they were part of the Law of Moses and specifically for the Israelites. That Law was fulfilled with the sacrifice by Jesus on the cross. Now there is a new covenant. Since more recent scripture speaks of homosexuality as sin, as do the modern-day prophets of my church, I follow those teachings.

    We are absolutely on the same page when it comes to the "letter" of the law. There is hypocrisy everywhere, and it is the one thing Jesus spoke most forcefully about. As his follower, I should strive to do the same. I hope my comments convey that feeling. I am sure some members of my church would think I am condemned because I vote Democratic and do not unquestioningly follow a certain talk-show host (Mr Beck specifically).

    Thanks again for you comments....all the best to you as well.

  • donn layton, UT
    Jan. 24, 2013 7:28 a.m.

    RE: Tyler D, The Bible condemns homosexuality is also in the same book that condemns a laundry list of actions that no one today believes raises any moral dilemma (e.g., eating shell fish or wearing certain cloth?
    The O. T. requirements is that they were part of the Law of Moses and specifically for the Israelites. That Law was fulfilled with the sacrifice by Jesus on the cross The ceremonial was fulfilled .
    But not the Moral Law: The moral laws, , relate to justice and judgment and are often translated as "ordinances." And are to be based on God's holy nature. As such, the ordinances are holy, just, and unchanging. Their purpose is to promote the welfare of those who obey. The value of the laws is considered obvious by reason and common sense. The moral law encompasses regulations on justice, respect, and sexual conduct, and includes the Ten Commandments. It also includes penalties for failure to obey the ordinances. Moral law does not point people to Christ; it merely illuminates the fallen state of all mankind.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Jan. 24, 2013 9:59 a.m.

    @donn

    To my ear, those sound like equivocations handed down by bookish theologians.

    Regarding the Old Testament I only heard snippets growing up, but when I read it as an adult I was honestly horrified at the level of barbarism. I saw only glimpses of the God Jesus talked about… instead Yahweh struck me as a vain, jealous, wrathful tribal god who sanctioned rape, killing, slavery and a whole host of other cruelties.

    It’s interesting to me that large segments of early Christians (e.g., Marcion, Gnostics, etc…) wanted to jettison the OT altogether. I wonder if Christianity would be better served had that decision been made.

    At the very least we would not be forced to do the mental gymnastics necessary to reconcile the tribal god Yahweh to the universal God of brotherly love.

  • donn layton, UT
    Jan. 24, 2013 11:23 a.m.

    Tyler D, the mental gymnastics necessary to reconcile the tribal god Yahweh to the universal God of brotherly (philia)love.
    The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love(*agape ,not eros love) your neighbor as yourself.” *Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore *love is the fulfillment of the law.(Romans 13: 9-10)

    When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn't he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? God has every right to exercise his judgment and his power, but he also has the right to be very patient with those who are the objects of his judgment and are fit only for destruction..(Romans (9:21-22 NLT).

    The seven feasts in Lev 23 that were given to Israel: Significance 1. Seasonal 2. Memorial of God’s dealing with the Herews. 3. Prophetic symbolism of God , all fulfilled in Christ, Passover, Yom Kippur.