"Hobby Lobby discovered a way to shift the plan year for its employee health
insurance, thus postponing the effective date of the mandate for several
months." its really not a loop-hole, its just delaying the inevitable.
So, what was/is the loop-hole??????
Re: ". . . delaying the inevitable."You mean delaying the
inevitable attempt at unconstitutional infringement of religion by this lawless
regime?Yeah, that's inevitable. In fact, the Obama regime will
probably try to use some illegal executive order to skirt the Judicial Branch,
as it has with the Legislative.But is it inevitable that the Third
Branch will go along?Not at all.And, when it
doesn't, the question will become, does Congress have the guts to impeach
and remove from office a guy who has done more to destroy America than any other
President since Franklin Roosevelt?We'll see.
I for one will no longer shop at Hobby Lobby. Healthcare is a private and
individual matter. Why should an employer have a right to decide what kind of
treatment you take? Shouldn't that be up to you and your doctor? And for
all those who think Hobby Lobby is in the right, would you be o.k. if your
employer decided, for religious reasons, not to pay for the blood transfusions
you need? Or maybe they oppose psychiatric treatments or psychotropic
medicines? Or maybe they don't believe in vaccines, so they refuse to pay
for that. It's a slippery slope when your employer starts putting their
nose in your business.
@ProceduroFiscalIf the court says is constitutional, it is. Even if you
don't like it.
Vern, I'm sure procurador has an airtight reason why the employee has no
right to contest the employers beliefs as being more important than his/her own.
Why healthcare is tied up with employment at all, is a mystery of history
without application today. Similarly I am sure that pro would be happy to accept
national health care as a reasonable solution to this "religious"
dilemma foisted on us all by this "lawless regime". Finally, ask
yourself if pro would object if someone came between the patient and their
doctor (say perhaps...the government)? He would scream for relief from
oppression, but not if an employer came between doctor and patient. Hope he
gets a job with a Christian Scientist for a boss and is told to "pray for a
cure" instead of seeing a doctor.
@procuradorfiscalObama was elected democratically and won both the
electoral and popular vote by substantial margin. The contemporary
interpretation of regime does not apply to the Obama administration, you may not
agree with their politics but they won a fair election. Also, the Supreme Court
has upheld that Obama Care does not infringe on Religious Freedoms, again you
can disagree, but so far the Federal Court System has upheld the controversial
parts of Obama Care (aka Romney Care)as not infringing on religious freedoms.
I used to buy my art supplies from hobby lobby, but stopped after I found out
that they don't value our nation's efforts to make sure everyone has
healthcare, and our initiatives to make sure women's medical needs are
Re: "If the court says is constitutional, it is. Even if you don't like
it."And, if the Supreme Court says it's not, I'm sure
you'll acquiesce in the same respectful manner?And, since we
have so much respect for the Courts, can we also agree that an executive order
by the President that skirts the Third Branch is also unconstitutional?And, if skirting the Third Branch is unconstitutional, how about agreeing that
an executive order that replaces Congress by legislating from the Oval Office is
also illegal?. . . .Hey, what kind of liberal are you,
They should just cover contraception for their staff, and trust them as adults
to make the choices they need to for themselves without the moralizing from on
When a company offers employment, they choose what salary they offer for what
positions. They may or may not choose to offer extra benefits, like healthcare
coverage. NOWHERE in the constitution does it say the federal government can
impose the terms of an employment contract. The federal government has no
business in this business. Yes, the Supreme Court has ruled this
constitutional---and all kinds of reprehensible things have previously been
deemed constitutional that were wrong.Over-reaching by the federal
government will not stop until citizens are courageous enough to fight back. We
should be thankful to Hobby Lobby for having the courage to stand up for their
rights---and ours. We will all be better off if Hobby Lobby wins because it
will be one less kid cowering to the federal bully!
Hobby Lobby's claim is not legitimate. It is the equivalent of an atheist
employer telling their religious employees that they could not make donations to
their churches, because it violated the employer's belief. A benefit, once
earned, is the property of the employee. By imposing their religious
convictions on their employees, Hobby Lobby is doing the very thing that they
accuse the Obama administration of doing; violating the religious rights of
others.That's the funny thing about Constitutional rights; if
we believe in them, then we must protect those freedoms for everyone, especially
those with whom we disagree.
Thank you vern. I wish more people understood the issue in that way. Religious
rights are fundamental, but ones religious rights do not trump the personal
rights of others. Should an employer withhold compensation because they think an
employee will use it in a way that runs counter to the employers religious
sensitivities? Absolutely not! They can't fire a person for being gay,
having an abortion, or committing adultery, why should they be able to withhold
my insurance because I MAY use it for something they don't like?
My insurance doesn't cover dental so I have to buy a separate dental
insurance policy. Why can't someone buy separate birth control insurance? I
am sure if enough people want it, someone will make money providing it.I
love how Liberals want the everyone to stay out of their bedroom (ie. gay
rights, abortion etc.), until someone actually does stay out (ie. Hobby Lobby
leaving contraception, abortion, etc up to the individual).
The problem with "the moral issue of abortion," is that it is not so
black and white, as people would like it to be.An hydatidiform
pregnancy, which occurs one in 1,000, can become cancerous and will never result
in a living child. Without termination, the mother could die. Without
effective contraception for 2 years afterward, the mother's life could also
be threatened.A rape victim should have the option of termination,
especially given the right to access to "morning after" care. Some of
these victims are children themselves.Other health issues make it
imperative that women not become pregnant. It is outrageous that Hobby Lobby
should be making decisions for their employees about their personal
relationships. Many are married. Effectively, Hobby Lobby is attempting to
decide how and when they can share intimacy with their spouses.Hobby
Lobby's employees are not well paid. For some of them, access to these
services is a matter of life or death. In my book, that's a moral issue.
The employees of Hobby Lobby can do whatever they want! Hobby Lobby is NOT
prohibiting anyone from doing anything. They are just not offering to pay for
certain things as benefits of employment with their company. There is nothing
immoral about only offering certain benefits. This attitude is the
ultimate of lazy, entitled thinking. "Oh poor me. I can only do what
someone else will pay for. I shouldn't improve myself to earn what I want,
I should demand that the people who have already worked hard enough to be
independent in their choices HAVE TO PAY FOR MINE."Not supported
anywhere in the constitution!
I too try not to support companies that refuse to treat their employees with
respect. If I need a blood transfusion can my employer deny it. If I want a
vasectomy can my employer deny it. If any sort of reproductive
services are supported, shouldn't all reproductive services be supported.
Perhaps my employer supports zero population growth, so he wants to prohibit
maternity care. These are all possibilities that can come up due to different
religious beliefs.My employer should have no control over my health
benefits. I don't want employer mandated death panels. I want my employer
to give me a paycheck for hours worked and I want him/her to keep his blasted
nose out of my personal business. If he provides some form of health insurance,
it should be fairly standardized across the board.
If what any court declares "constitutional" - even the Supreme Court of
the United States - goes against biblical principles, then Hobby Lobby, or any
other Christian-owned business, or any Christian individual, is honor-bound to
obey the Higher Law of God. If the Supreme court declared child abuse to be a
constitutional right, it would still be wrong. Our court systems are only as
good, moral, and ethical as the men and women who make up the judgeship, and
it's readily apparent that more and more of our courts are becoming
liberal, activist courts with their own agenda, thereby sacrificing real justice
Re: ". . . you may not agree with their politics but they won a fair
election."So did the National Socialists.
Indeed, healthcare is a private matter. Why do employers even provide health
insurance at all? Why not just give employees a base salary, and let the
employees purchase their own individual coverage, with or without birth control
coverage (or no coverage at all, and pay the ObamaCare fine) as they see fit?
DJC: "If I want a vasectomy can my employer deny it. " Uh YES! Many
healthcare plans don't cover that. Is it right to force a company to pay
to have it added? NO! HL isn't telling anybody what they can and
can't do. They are just saying they aren't paying for it. If you
don't like it get a job somewhere that does!
Not everything that is legal is ethical. Suck on that for a bit - @kishkumen
Vern001, the employer sponsored healthcare offered by Hobby Lobby is not the
only healthcare available to its employees. Until Obamacare changes things it is
an optional benefit to its employees. The employee is not forced to participate
and Hobby Lobby is in no way deciding its employees treatments. The employee can
still select whatever treatment he or she wants. Whether its covered under the
plan is a different story. Once Obamacare is fully implemented, if Hobby Lobby
does have to pay for its employee's healthcare, then employees still
aren't forced to stay with the company if they don't like the plan.
Nobody is forcing anyone to stay at a job. We all have the opportunity to look
for a job where we're comfortable and agree with the benefits.
"When a company offers employment, they choose what salary they offer for
what positions. They may or may not choose to offer extra benefits, like
healthcare coverage. NOWHERE in the constitution does it say the federal
government can impose the terms of an employment contract. The federal
government has no business in this business. Yes, the Supreme Court has ruled
this constitutional---and all kinds of reprehensible things have previously been
deemed constitutional that were wrong."I was under the
impression that the Supreme Court had bolstered the Commerce clause in its
decision, doesn't that mean that Hobby Lobby has a case in that section of
Hobby Lobby shouldn't even have to use Religion as an excuse.They should be able to say "nope" we don't want to cover that
"just because".If employees don't want to work there or
if customers don't want to shop there than that is the result.Our Rights are being eroded.We have a government trying to control
us way too much!Amazing that America voted for obama.
@vern001"Why should an employer have a right to decide what kind of
treatment you take?"Hobby Lobby is not telling their employees
what kind of treatment they can have. If their employees want contraception
they still have the right to reach into their wallet and pay for it. If the
employee does not like Hobby Lobbies benefit package the employee has the right
to go find an employer who does."And for all those who think
Hobby Lobby is in the right, would you be o.k. if your employer decided, for
religious reasons, not to pay for the blood transfusions you need?"I would be perfectly ok with that. My employer has every right to provide
whatever benefits they want. If I don't like it I'll go find an
employer who I do like.
Hobby Lobby customers mirror those of Chick Fil A and will experience a net gain
in business growth from this publicity.
Well said, djc: "My employer should have no control over my health benefits.
I don't want employer mandated death panels. I want my employer to give me
a paycheck for hours worked and I want him/her to keep his blasted nose out of
my personal business."I agree completely. Too bad that
isn't really what you meant.
It is within their right to choose what they will cover...afterall, they are
paying for it. I think they would be at a terrible risk if they covered
contraception - there would always be employees that abuse it.
vern001, if health care is a private matter, why are you expecting your employer
to pay for it?
I applaud Hobby Lobby for standing up to that Tyrant in the WhiteHouseObama's Health Care Bill will be one of the absolute worst piece of
legislation ever passed - all 3,000 pages. No doubt the Health Care was lacking
in this country , but we needed something more like Ron Paul's 12 page
Health Care Bill. Sadly the people of this country are going to find out just
how horrible this bill truly is.The Federal Government is long long
over due for a radical reduction in size. All decision making needs to be
returned to the States as per the law of the land - "The Constitution of The
United States " How's that change working out for you ? As
your civil liberties & freedoms rapidly disappear. I believe
that more and more companies are going to start defying the regime currently in
power and rely on their individual states for direction. The states for now are
united - for how much longer shall be interesting to see
I, for one, have never been in a Hobby Lobby store. From now on, when seeking
items sold by such a store, I will seek them out for my purchases! (That should
cancel out the opposite reaction of vern001 and others who seem to miss the
vern001Castle Rock, COI for one will no longer shop at Hobby
Lobby. Healthcare is a private and individual matter. Why should an employer
have a right to decide what kind of treatment you take? Shouldn't that be
up to you and your doctor?===================================I agree. Healthcare is a private matter between you and your doctor.
So if you want contraceptives, Hobby Lobby employees should not get Hobby Lobby
kishkumenAmerican Fork, UTI used to buy my art supplies from
hobby lobby, but stopped after I found out that they don't value our
nation's efforts to make sure everyone has healthcare, and our initiatives
to make sure women's medical needs are covered.================================They also don't value or
assume responsibility to ensure people have car insurance either. But I would
hold that against them.