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Letters: Real Utah climate change

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  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Jan. 15, 2013 12:25 a.m.

    Our public actions must be informed by science. We cannot bury our heads in the sand.

    Denial of climate change usually takes one of two forms.

    First, that the scientists have ignored some key data. As if armchair experts know what the professionals do not.

    Second, that there is a vast global conspiracy to suppress the truth. The problem with this is the size and complexity of such a conspiracy would be beyond what is humanly possible.

    We need to reject such foolishness, take the best information available, and move forward accordingly.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Jan. 15, 2013 6:25 a.m.

    What I find is that if one is very very selective in choosing the data, spins that data just right, while ignoring mountains of other data, a case could be made AGAINST climate change.

    Not exactly a scientific approach, but used quite commonly by "intelligent" people and elected officials.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    Jan. 15, 2013 7:40 a.m.

    HOw do people explain lenghty cold fronts or volcanic eruptions. Can't control climate why let it control us?

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:07 a.m.

    So, is a few places we had a warmer than usual summer. Right now in some places we are having record breaking cold weather which is threatening crops and lives. In Russia it was -40 degrees last week. How do the "scientists" explain that? The evidence doesn't support the theory all the time does it?

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:45 a.m.

    I'll say it again. Those who choose to bury their heads in the sand (or snow) and pretend nothing is happening won't wake up until their tail feathers ignite.

    Actually, the incidental weather anomalies that seem to contradict climate change are predicted by the change models.

    But understanding that requires some ability to actually think beyond sound bites.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:47 a.m.

    "in some places we are having record breaking cold weather which is threatening crops and lives. In Russia it was -40 degrees last week."

    How do the "scientists" explain that?

    Well, I am not a scientist, but I think I can. It is called Weather.

    Weather happens daily. It sets new records all the time, both hot and cold. Those that interchange weather and climate miss the picture. Climate is not weather.

    This is the type of cherry picking I was referring to.

  • Thinkin\' Man Rexburg, ID
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:53 a.m.

    Weather is not climate. Utah's temperatures have almost nothing to do with global averages. One year's temperatures are meaningless in long-term trends.

    So should we get alarmed about this January's near-record cold? Is an ice age looming? Same logic applies.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:09 a.m.

    No. I refuse to believe it, therefore it isn't true. It isn't happening in my backyard, right now, so I don't have to do anything about it. I am a utah armchair climatologist.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:13 a.m.

    Come on people, its time to face the truth. Al Gore is a fraud and so is his "inconvenient truth" scam. He is laughing all the way to the bank having amassed wealth untold! Yes, he is even richer than Mitt Romney now! This issue was and remains all about money; taking it from you and giving it to them so they can "save the planet". At what point will some of you finally recognize this and get on with solving our real problems?

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:34 a.m.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID

    ...Al Gore is a fraud... He is laughing all the way to the bank having amassed wealth untold! Yes, he is even richer than Mitt Romney now!

    =========

    He maybe richer than Mitt Romney,
    But he's still a pauper compared to liars like Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck and Sean Hannity.

  • Open Minded Mormon Everett, 00
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:05 a.m.

    Mountanman
    Hayden, ID
    So, is a few places we had a warmer than usual summer. Right now in some places we are having record breaking cold weather which is threatening crops and lives. In Russia it was -40 degrees last week. How do the "scientists" explain that? The evidence doesn't support the theory all the time does it?

    8:07 a.m. Jan. 15, 2013

    =====

    Beacause we all know you have ALL the evidence for the entire planet from your little old back porch up there in little old Hayden, Idaho - right Mountaman?

    From all your posts -- it seems very clear your only contact with the outside world is whatever Rush Limbaugh tells you it is.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:10 a.m.

    @Mountainman
    "The evidence doesn't support the theory all the time does it?"

    Considering record highs are much more frequent than record lows the past decade actually it rather does support it. Last year was the 11th warmest on record with 15 of the 15 warmest years being the most recent 15.

    "At what point will some of you finally recognize this and get on with solving our real "problems?"

    When the data stops backing up the idea of anthropogenic climate change.

  • Whatever Springville, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:11 a.m.

    The global warming deniers on this board are pretty funny when you consider that on one side of the argument you have 99 percent of all credible scientists in the world and on the other side you have Glenn Beck...

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:14 a.m.

    Massive amounts of data support man-made causes for climate change. A handful contrary studies offer a different view. The conservatives prefer to ignore the former and give total allegiance to the latter. Unfortunately, their view of economics results from a similar attitude toward evidence. Somehow they have managed to maintain just enough power in government to prevent us from actually dealing with the problems on both fronts.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:17 a.m.

    @ ATL. Data is easily fabricated, it happens everyday. Aren't actual ambient temperatures data? I trust actual facts more than computer model predictions. You should too.

    @Open Minded.. I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh, don't have time.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:22 a.m.

    Well, it only took nine posts for someone to weigh in with the "all about the money" rebuttal, although this time it was only directed at Al Gore and not at all of the climate scientists who have to drink the climate change Kool-Aid to keep getting all of those lucrative federal grants. Never mind that Gore's latest windfall came from a routine media business transaction. Never mind that most academic researchers make modest incomes. Never mind that the charge is rarely applied to the climate change skeptics funded by the Koch brothers or Exxon-Mobil.

    However, let's accept the charge as legitimate and apply it equally to another subject currently in public debate. This issue was and remains all about money; taking it from you and giving it to them so they can "save the guns." Only this time the giving is done freely by gun owners to the dealers and lobbyists. Does anyone not think that there is a viable industry manufacturing fear of gun confiscation? Gun and ammunition sales are booming. NRA membership is skyrocketing. There is a lot of money to be made riling up the masses and cultivating hysteria-- whatever the subject.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:48 a.m.

    If Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck say there is no global warming, then by golly, there is no global warming. Every climate scientist in the world is a liberal, Communist, money grubber. (Disregard the fact that scientists make many multitudes less than either of those renowned experts, Rush and Glenn. Disregard the fact that scientists have spent years learning about the things they study, while Rush and Glen have studied no more than maybe high school biology and chemistry).

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 11:00 a.m.

    Wonder
    Provo, UT

    Agreed!

    Nothing speaks the truth over accredited Global Scientists worldwide better than a fat-cat $400 million, college-drop-out, 3 timed married, former drug-addict, facists, male chavanist, radio show host, broadcasting from a studio through his EIB microphone, in Florida.

  • Screwdriver Casa Grande, AZ
    Jan. 15, 2013 11:18 a.m.

    I've never seen Rush Limbot have an expert guest on his show. He knows everything.

  • All American Herriman, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 11:31 a.m.

    Why is it that people love to run these words all together into one subject? Global warming - global cooling - climate change - human caused global "whatever". Those are 4 different subjects - all have plenty of statistics to support or refute them. If people were at all logical and rational, they would recognize that "climate change" has happened on this earth since its inception, and even IF humans are responsible, barring a massive die-off, there is nothing that will change whether we have a "warming" or a "cooling". Even a massive die-off will most likely make no difference in "climate change". You all do know the meaning of "change", don't you?

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 11:33 a.m.

    @Mountanman
    "Aren't actual ambient temperatures data?"

    Yes, that's actually what I'm basing my statements on. Despite how cold it's been in salt lake city so far in 2013 we have not gotten any closer to a record low than yesterdays -2 (record low: -10). All surface observation datasets (NOAA, NASA, etc) and the satellite datasets like UAH and RSS show warming over the past three decades on the order of .12-.16C/decade.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 11:52 a.m.

    Re: "Weather is not climate."

    Meaning that only hot weather counts?

    We're currently experiencing one of the coldest winters in memory. But that doesn't count because it doesn't perpetuate the global warming myth.

    Or, worse yet -- some assert the extreme cold is the surest sign of global warming.

    When climate "scientists" can come up with a crisis that's not "proven" by data so nuanced as to be invisible to all but the cheerleading "scientists," themselves; when their raw data sets are made publicly available, and their published data are not "normed" and "smoothed" beyond recognition; when investigators that disagree with them are free to publish; when their models actually predict reality; and when they can find some evidence for their assertions that only communitarian socialism will "solve" the "crisis" they've "discovered;" then, maybe we'll listen.

    Until then, it's just bleating to the same tune old tune as such discredited "sciences" as phrenology and eugenics.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 12:29 p.m.

    procuradorfiscal
    Tooele, UT
    Re: "Weather is not climate."

    Meaning that only hot weather counts?

    We're currently experiencing one of the coldest winters in memory.

    ==============

    You're memory is wrong.
    I worked in a sweatshirt outside until the middle of December.

    It didn't snow until Christmas.

    The last couple weeks have been cold,
    but are not setting any consistant string of records for cold.

    The facts is -- the winter of 2012-2013 is still warmer than normal.

    That's what we mean when we call it "Global Warming".

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 12:29 p.m.

    It is interesting that those who call gun owners paranoid are the same ones that are paranoid that their tail is going to burst into flames because of global warming.

    I don't see anywhere near the evidence that global warming is about to off a bunch of people that I do that a nut job is going to off a bunch of people. The latter happens every few months (or weeks, according to those trying to outlaw possession of guns). Haven't heard of many people burning up in the weather, ever.

    I will keep my guns, continue to be a responsible American and world citizen, and not run around like chicken little saying the heat in the sky is falling. (and I will continue to wear many layers when I go outside for the next few weeks!)

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 12:38 p.m.

    To "JoeBlow" you are wrong. The data that is being used for the studies that state that the climate are cooling use satelite data and present a better picture of what is going on than the ground based stations. See "Sorry Global Warming Alarmists, The Earth Is Cooling" in Forbes.

    I love the liberals who run out of actual arguments and go straight for the "climate change denial" allegations. Nobody is denying that the climate is changing. History shows that it has changed and will continue to change. The problem is identifying the source of the change. The people who continually stick their heads in the sand declaring that it is all man-caused repeatly show that they don't understand science very well.

    How are we supposed to trust climate models that have been shown to be wrong? Would you fly on an airplane that had bad calculations for its wings? See "
    Global warming stopped 16 years ago, reveals Met Office report quietly released... and here is the chart to prove it" in the UK daily Mail, "New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism" in Formbes, and "Painting by numbers: NASA's peculiar thermometer" UK Register.

  • Lagomorph Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 12:50 p.m.

    procuradorfiscal: "... when they can find some evidence for their assertions that only communitarian socialism will "solve" the "crisis"..."

    The only domestic public policy option for reducing CO2 emissions I've seen given any serious consideration is Cap and Trade. This is an attempt to harness free market forces and price mechanisms to affect public behavior. Similar market-based strategies have been successful in controlling other pollutants (e.g. SO2) It's hardly "communitarian socialism."

    I have previously challenged Cap and Trade critics in this forum to come up with a better policy to reduce CO2 emissions (just pretend for the moment that the hoax of CO2-driven climate change is real-- it's a thought exercise, after all). Propose a policy mechanism that maximizes consumer choice, maximizes producer flexibility, incentivizes innovation, minimizes administrative costs, and reliably produces measurable reductions in emissions. Those who have responded (almost always conservatives) invariably fall back on top-down, command-and-control government dictates-- banning or restricting emissions or making emissions exorbitantly expensive through fines (Big Government solutions). That or moral suasion-- tell people CO2 is a problem and just hope they will change behavior.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 1:01 p.m.

    Christian 24-7
    Murray, UT
    It is interesting that those who call gun owners paranoid are the same ones that are paranoid that their tail is going to burst into flames because of global warming.

    I don't see anywhere near the evidence that global warming is about to off a bunch of people that I do that a nut job is going to off a bunch of people. The latter happens every few months (or weeks, according to those trying to outlaw possession of guns). Haven't heard of many people burning up in the weather, ever.

    =================

    Hurricane Sandy - death toll 135 people,
    Hurricane Katrina - deth toll 1,836 people.

    But - you don't see ANY evidence...

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Jan. 15, 2013 1:03 p.m.

    "The data that is being used for the studies that state that the climate are cooling use satelite data and present a better picture of what is going on than the ground based stations."

    Someone better tell that to the polar ice up north. It didn't get the memo.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 1:57 p.m.

    To "JoeBlow" they already did. See "World Atlas ice loss claim exaggerated: scientists" at Reuters, "Earth's Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought" in US News, "Science mystery: Himalayan glaciers are growing despite global warming" DN, and "Change is a cold certainty" in the Austrialian.

    But I must say, nice job trying to change the topic.

    The fact remains that the satelite data is better for measuring temperature than the ground stations. Just take a look at the locations for the NASA weather stations that track temperature. They are located primarily in the US and Western Europe, missing the poles, oceans, and much of Africa. The satelites collect data from the entire globe. Why would you trust models based on the land based temperatures when they miss most of the globe?

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 2:35 p.m.

    Re: ". . . Cap and Trade. . . is an attempt to harness free market forces and price mechanisms to affect public behavior."

    Yeah -- a centrally-directed, completely artificial valuation of a "commodity" that has no intrinsic value, done in order to force behavior that's in conformity with that desired by the central controllers.

    Sorry, but that's a pretty good definition of communitarian socialism, not free-market capitalism.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Jan. 15, 2013 3:19 p.m.

    "Earth's Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought"

    Well.... how is it melting at all with temps dropping?

    Shouldn't they be growing?

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 3:40 p.m.

    Spouting death tolls from 2 hurricanes is hardly evidence of global warming. In fact all the "evidence" of global warming is weak and not well connected.

    Hurricanes have been around for centuries. They are not new, and cannot be attributed to any current global warming.

    There have always been cycles of mild hurricane seasons, and severe hurricane seasons. The big hurricanes are many years apart. 90's was Andrew, 00's was Katrina, 10's is Sandy.

    Damage, in dollars always grows over time because the value of property goes up and the value of a dollar goes down, and because there is ever more development and more expensive boats along the shore. There more damage because there is more valuable stuff in the way. It is not because of global warming.

    More people are injured and killed in hurricanes because there are more people packed in along coastal areas, and many think they don't need to leave when a big storm comes. More people in the hurricane's path = higher death toll. It is not due to global warming.

    There is no link between any hurricane and global warming.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Jan. 15, 2013 3:55 p.m.

    RedShirt
    USS Enterprise, UT

    " at Reuters, "Earth's Polar Ice Melting Less Than Thought"

    ===========

    OK - stop and "think" about that for a minute RedShirt...

    Just because some report says it's melting slower than thought,
    doesn't mean that it isn't mealting at all.

    If the Planet wasn't getting warmer,
    Then the Polar Ice caps wouldn't be melting at all.

    Do us a favor --
    Why don't you Google up some "common sense".

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 7:14 p.m.

    A new report just disclosed that 2012 had the HOTTEST average worldwide temperature ever recorded. The report also indicates that it would have even hotter had it not been pulled down a degree by some isolated colder temperatures in some areas.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 7:49 p.m.

    "The majority of Americans now believe that human-caused climate change is affecting us, according to the Yale Project on Climate Change Communications" - The majority of Americans also know who is allegedly the father of Kim Kardashian's baby but have no idea who Obama will nominate for Treasury Secretary so what does "the majority of American's believe" have to do with the price of tea in China?
    Since the American left always has to "do something" then what shall we do? Tax carbon? Mandate more "renewable energy" and jack up American's utility bills even further?
    What's so funny about the environmentalist crowd is that fracking and Natural Gas appear to be a gift from heaven to assuage their worries and naturally they don't want anything to do with it. Energy is bad don't ya know! But we have to do something! Pass some new laws and regulations! Just do something! To heck with the consequences!

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 15, 2013 8:16 p.m.

    I have an idea- why don't we print some more money to fund a new "cash for clunkers" program? That was a wonderful idea to combat global warming and it worked so well. I can feel it getting cooler already. Yes, poor people suffered because it jacked up the price of used cars but why worry about poor people when you are pursuing lofty goals like combating "climate change"? You have to break a few eggs to make an omelette don't ya know?

  • Mick Murray, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2013 9:53 p.m.

    "The hottest ever recorded"

    How long have we been recording? 150-200 years?

    Isn't the earth 5 1/2 billion years old? Seems like a ridiculous to assume any trends or even rates of change.

    Bad science and bad math

  • WestGranger West Valley City, Utah
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:14 p.m.

    "Global warming became a cause to save life on earth before it had a chance to become good science. The belief that fossil fuel use is an emergency destroying our planet by CO2 emissions took over the media and political arena by storm. The issue was politicized so quickly that the normal scientific process was stunted. We have never had a full, honest national debate on either the science or government policy issues...
    Everyone "knows" that global warming is true." By Karin McQuillan of "American Thinker"

    Political correctness is pushing away any science that is contrary. Its sometimes cult-like followers bully, demonize and insult those what dare question it.

  • higv Dietrich, ID
    Jan. 15, 2013 10:37 p.m.

    You are narrowminded or have your head in the sand if you think global warming is a farce. Thing is how can humans destroy something they did not create? We always had material on earth so we can't destroy it. Besides Meteorologists can't get the temperature straight the next day how can you guess the temperature years from now. Global warming is a farce. Good thing no one beleived in it before the industrial revolution or we would not have the industrial revolution and that is what is happening now is people are doing what they can to destroy progress.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 7:27 a.m.

    To "one old man" to quote your ilk. One year does not make a trend. Just like one cold winter does not mean that we have global cooling. Using your logic, Global Warming is over because this winter is colder than average.

    To "airnaut" if the polar ice is melting less than thoght or projected, what does that say about the models that your ilk are dependant on to justify the policies to cut CO2 emissions?

    To "higv" Global Warming is not a farce. We have been warming since the end of the Little Ice Age (1850). Just look at the dates of the Little Ice Age, and compare that to what the Climate Change Alarmists use as the timeframe for warming.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 9:16 a.m.

    All the arguing back and forth about whether global warming is real or is man-made is all beside the point. The skeptics have enough power and, barring a Republican self-destruction over the debt ceiling, will continue to have enough power to prevent the U.S. from significantly reducing greenhouse gas emissions. China and India and other up-and-coming nations will also continue to add to the CO2 in the air. If global warming is real and is man-made, we'll find out soon enough and will have to live with the consequences, unpleasant though they may be. The only thing that might save us is if we run out of oil. It may take 100 years or so, but eventually we will have to find an alternative source of energy that can fuel our ever-growing global economy. If we can't, then we're sort of back to square one. And so far, there is no alternate source of energy that can come close to propping up the corporate system that is running us into the ground.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Jan. 16, 2013 10:07 a.m.

    higv
    Dietrich, ID

    Yep.
    Global warming is a farce --

    And you should know -- Speaking on behalf of all 332 good citizens in Dietrich Idaho.

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Jan. 16, 2013 11:41 a.m.

    Airnut "Global warming is a farce --

    And you should know -- Speaking on behalf of all 332 good citizens in Dietrich Idaho."

    Meaning what??? That people from small towns are unknowing? Seems like insulting a person's position based on the size of town they live in is hardly civil dialogue.

    Utah gets treated the same way by sophisticated easterners. It is nothing short of a PC form of bigotry, you know, like insulting fat people, or Mormons.

    Thanks for showing us how low you will go.

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 18, 2013 8:38 p.m.

    re: JoeBlow

    Exactly. Climate is what we expect. Weather is what we get.

    Conceptually, SLC has the same climate as Northern Kazakhstan & parts of Turkey's interior. I doubt they have been unnaturally cold for the majority of 2013.