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Letter: Improper use of 'class warfare' an insult to millions of actual victims

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  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Dec. 7, 2012 6:43 a.m.

    When seeds are sown, are we too foolish to know what kind of crop we will harvest?

    Obama has been sowing "class warfare seeds" since he has had a political voice. Why? What is his "end game"? No other President in American history has ever sown such seeds. No other President has had the goal to divide this nation.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 7, 2012 6:54 a.m.

    "Genuine class warfare took place under the totalitarian dictatorships of Joseph Stalin, Adolph Hitler and Mao Zedong. The leaders of the class with power murdered millions of human beings."

    Where does the author think his examples all began? It is the culmination of what is happening right now in America. Dictators come to power and are accepted by the majority who have invented a common enemy. In our case, its the "rich" anyone who has succeeded, unless of course its those rich people on the left. Its a proven, powerful political tool and the left is still using it with great effect.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Dec. 7, 2012 8:06 a.m.

    Can either of you provide examples (specific quotes would be appreciated) of Obama's class warfare "seeds"

    I am just curious as to what that means to you.

  • Stalwart Sentinel San Jose, CA
    Dec. 7, 2012 8:31 a.m.

    Mike Richards - You obviously have little knowledge of what seeds have been sown by previous presidents. Try starting with the poignant speech by FDR in Madison Square Garden in 1936.

    Quick history: FDR was a Democrat that succeeded a woefully inept Republican after that Republican, and a Republican-controlled HoR and Senate, steered our Nation into the Great Depression. When the Country realized the absolute disparity that existed among the elites and the middle-class, they figured out that it was the Republican-controlled federal government that was responsible for facilitating such inequality. So, the American people put their trust in Democrats, in both the White House and the Capitol. And we progressed.

    Aside from Hoover, do you know the only other time in the last 100 years in which Republicans controlled the White House and both Houses? 2000-2006. And what did we get? The Great Recession. You see, history repeats itself. Ever heard "Bush43's jobs record is the worst since Hoover"? And just as the American people turned to the fixers of the economy then (Democrats) we are turning to the fixers of our economy now.

    Also, read "A Proclamation on the Economy" please.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 7, 2012 8:38 a.m.

    @ Joe Blow. "“if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.” Class warfare at its finest!

  • J Thompson SPRINGVILLE, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 8:40 a.m.

    Joe,

    Spend an hour reading Obama's speeches. Why not start with his 2002 MLK speech? Instead of excusing his words, why not see what he is really saying. Why not think about what Michelle Obama meant when she said, "For the first time in my adult lifetime, I am really proud of my country."

    Kennedy uttered the famous, "Ask not" but Obama is telling us to "demand" from government and that the "rich guy" will pay.

    Both are Democrats. One had a vision of America and of Americans that inspired greatness in all of us. The other preyed on pettiness, on personal laziness, on envy, on coveting.

    History will not be kind to Barack Obama. History will show that the "fiscal cliff" was not the main problem. The main problem was Obama enticing people to jump into his arms so that he could destroy private wealth, business, and incentive in America. He's spent his whole life surrounding himself with radicals whose goal has been to destroy America. Look at his closest friends and associates. Look at Bill Ayers who bombed the Pentagon. Look at all of them and see the commonality of their thoughts.

  • JoeBlow Far East USA, SC
    Dec. 7, 2012 8:48 a.m.

    Ah, nice try. Again the GOP taking things out of context to mislead. Here is the full context.

    "If you were successful, somebody along the line gave you some help. There was a great teacher somewhere in your life. Somebody helped to create this unbelievable American system that we have that allowed you to thrive. Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen. The Internet didn’t get invented on its own. Government research created the Internet so that all the companies could make money off the Internet."

    Now, to the point, you call THAT class warfare? I find that odd.

    Let Ronald Reagan help you out.

    “Do you think the millionaire ought to pay more in taxes than the bus driver or less?”

    “More!” the audience shouted.

    “We want to see that everyone pays their fair share and no one gets a free ride,” Reagan said, and that “no one is manipulating the system to their advantage because they’re rich and powerful.”

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:01 a.m.

    But Joe..you are missing the point! Most of us had great teachers, all of us drive on highways but not everyone has built a business that hires people and pay nearly 80% of all the federal income taxes paid.
    Obama's comment sounds like it came right from Karl Marx "to each according to their ability and to each according to their needs". Obama has more in common with Fidel Castro and Hugo Chavez than the leader of the free world. Add to that the fact that more taxes on the "rich" will only run the government for less than 10 days. Please explain how you would solve the real problem of run away government spending for the other 355 days! That's the real issue here, isn't it?

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:02 a.m.

    We have a bigger problem incorrectly using the word "socialism".

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:09 a.m.

    my typo..should be "from each according to their ability..sorry

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:09 a.m.

    Joe, I'll bet I can tell you exactly where that nonsense is coming from. "Conservative" posters here are simply regurgitating the garbage they hear on the radio from propagandists like Rush and Glen and Sean and . . . and . . . and . . .

    In the meantime, calling what Stalin and Mao and Adolf did "class warfare" is also nonsense. It was political war, religious war, and war against the educated people who were capable to questioning what they were doing.

    Not much different, really, than the war being waged in America today by our corporations and certain political groups like ALEC and the GOP. They just have become smart enough to realize that you don't have to kill people to advance your causes. Just numb their brains with a constant stream of scare tactics and right wing propaganda and warnings of imaginary conspiracies.

    We frequently see the results of that mind numbing in posts right here.

  • Roland Kayser Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:15 a.m.

    To see class warfare at work you need only examine one statistic. The share of the national income going to working people vs. to corporate profits and the very rich. For several decades after WWII about 2/3 of the national income went to workers. Starting in 1980 that started to decline, it flattened out in the 90's and then started a steep decline in 2000. Now only 52% of the national income goes to work, the remainder goes to corporate profits and the very rich.

    The share that has been shifted away from workers is equivalent to the total amount of taxes collected by the federal government. That's a massive amount of money that has been taken away from workers and gone into the pockets of the hyper-rich.

    That's class warfare. AS Warren Buffet said "we've had class warfare in this country for the last thirty years, my class won".

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:26 a.m.

    Reagan and his Reaganomics started the class war. In the past 30 years wealth distribution has been increasingly concentrated among the rich and middle class wages have stagnated. Then when the middle class fights back the elites say they're starting a class war.

  • Thinkin\' Man Rexburg, ID
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:26 a.m.

    The presidential election was, in part, a war against the wealthy, successful businesses, and "old white guys." Look at the incredible bigotry revealed in the demographic vote statistics. The president continues class warfare by pandering to the polls, championing increasing taxes on "the wealthy," which does nearly nothing to address the Federal deficit; it's pure pandering.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:29 a.m.

    Please everyone, just read "Who Stole the American Dream," by Hedrick Smith.

    If you do, you will have a much better understanding of how we got into this mess.

    And it is not simply just a black-and-white, Democrat, Republican mess. It involves much, much more than that.

    It's hard -- if not impossible -- for anyone to solve a problem unless they understand what caused the problem.

    But far too many of us are willing to accept propaganda instead of good information. When we do that, we simply add to the problem.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:32 a.m.

    @Mountanman
    "“if you’ve got a business, you didn’t build that.”

    If you bothered to read/hear his entire paragraph or two around that you'd know he was clearly saying that businesses didn't build the roads they use to transport their goods, that it's a benefit they use that helps them succeed. But no... context would mess with the talking point you want to make now would it? But I see later you still want to press this... fine... how about this quote? Is it Marxist? After all he's talking about roads too.

    "There are a lot of people in government who help us and allow us to have an economy that works and allow entrepreneurs and business leaders of various kinds to start businesses and create jobs. We all recognize that. That's an important thing.... I know that you recognize that a lot of people help you in a business. Perhaps the banks, the investors. There's no question your mom and dad. Your school teachers. The people that provide roads, the fire, and the police. A lot of people help." - Mitt Romney

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:57 a.m.

    "To see class warfare at work you need only examine one statistic."

    I really like that idea. Can I pick the one statistic we look at?

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:57 a.m.

    From the Free Dictionary: "Class warfare: conflict between social or economic classes (especially between the capitalist and proletariat classes)."

    Doesn't say anything about what the letter writer claims is class warfare. Sounds like we're using the term properly in America today and not offending anyone. And yes, Warren Buffett is right.

  • Kent C. DeForrest Provo, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 10:07 a.m.

    From Dictionary.com: Class struggle:

    1. Also called class conflict. conflict between different classes in a community resulting from different social or economic positions and reflecting opposed interests.

    2. Also called class war, class warfare. (in Marxist thought) the struggle for political and economic power carried on between capitalists and workers.

    Pointless letter stretching to make a point.

  • Eric Samuelsen Provo, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 10:11 a.m.

    Excellent letter. And in the same vein, people love to compare their political opponents to Hitler, or Stalin or someone. Rhetorical excess combined with historical ignorance; a nasty combination.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    Dec. 7, 2012 10:14 a.m.

    Mountainman said, "Where does the author think his examples all began? It is the culmination of what is happening right now in America."

    On this one I have to agree with you. Not unlike the decadent lifestyles of the Czar and his close associates, the wealthy have continued to get more and more wealth since the 1980's and the middle class and lower class have actually lost ground economically and politically. This country was built on the values of hard work and fairness but the last thirty years have been anything but fair to the majority of Americans who do most of the hard work. And unless this issue is addressed soon, the spirit of contention between the upper, wealthy class and everyone else who sees their savings slipping way, who see their ability to create change in our communities at the expense of the ruling class, will most likely result in an uprising similar to what happened in the early 20th Century.

    American values are not found in bank accounts or stock portfolios on Wall Street, they are found in the hearts and minds of those who give their best effort everyday to make life better for all Americans.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 10:32 a.m.

    "There's class warfare, all right, but it's my class, the rich class, that's making war, and we're winning." ~ Warren Buffett.

    He pointed out that, were it a war, it was pretty unfair since his side, the ultra rich, has the “nuclear bomb.”

    =============

    Don't forget - Mitt Romney mentioned classwar-fare with his now famous 47% comment,
    and then right after he lost, he placed all the blame on Obama for promising "Free stuff".

    Warren Buffett is right.
    Conservatives are once again, wrong.

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 10:51 a.m.

    I respect Mr. Gronberg's experience and feelings on this matter. Warfare is a harsh word. But it is important to remember that the killing didn't start on day one in those dictatorships. There were years of hateful speech causing the de-humanizing of certain classes. Once they were systematically dehumanized, killing them was no longer murder, it became, in many minds, the solution.

    So are there people today who see the rich as deserving of elimination? I read and hear this more and more frequently, so yes. Are there those who see the poor as disposable? Yes again.

    We need to address the hateful de-humanizing rhetoric before it escalates to actual warfare.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 11:02 a.m.

    Dictionaries are wonderful tools to get a beginning of understanding and knowledge. Look up ford and dodge. Doesn't say anything about automobiles, just rivers and evasive movements. Ford and Dodge not even mentioned.

    Yes words and phrases change their meaning over time. My problem with “class warfare”, in 2012 context, is the word “warfare”. Normally warfare involves organized and large scale violence. It is just too strong a word in my opinion for the context most people use it in. Warren Buffett is one of the finest citizens of the Republic. The phrase in question will continue to be used endlessly in spite of my letter the DN.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 11:04 a.m.

    A couple more points the letter writer got WRONG.

    1. Adolph Hitler killed more Communists than Capitalists in WWII, by a 3 to 1 ratio. He also opened the gas-chambers to the Liberals, Acedamia, Non-Christians, Immigrants, Homosexuals, Abortionists, the Homeless, the Poor, the terminally and mentally ill. He was not a Socialist, but in fact a Fascist - i.e., uber-far-right-wing Conservative.

    2. Stalin was [like many dictators] a self absorbed paranoid schezophrenic. Economic models have nothing to do with that.

    3. China experience 2-5 million deaths under Communist leader Chairman Mao due largely in part to the Chinese civil war with Nationalist leader Chiang Kai-Shek. What you are doing is the same things as blaming Pres. Abraham Lincoln for all the total America casualties from both sides durng the U.S. Civil War.

    4. Filthy rich American Businessmen and their Corporations absolutely LOVE doing business with Chairman Mao's Communist Country. But that seems OK and hunky-dorrey and fully encouraged with Republicans.

    The Communist Chinese are winning, funded by American Businesses, and America is now indebt to our eye-balls to them for it.
    There's your class warfare.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    Dec. 7, 2012 11:12 a.m.

    Christian 24-7 said, "So are there people today who see the rich as deserving of elimination?"

    Absolutely not. As has been pointed out many times by both sides of the issue, "the rich" include many of the people who feed the engine that runs this country. Many people have become wealthy due only to their hard work and ingenuity. Even those who may have inherited their wealth include those who are generous and benevolent and without whose contributions - of both money and influence - many of the things that benefit us all would not be possible.

    But in the end, fairness must prevail. No this does not mean a total redistribution of wealth so that every one receives an equal share, but it means changing our tax code so that someone with hundreds of millions in wealth, who lives off capital gains income does not pay 14% in total taxes (because they don't pay payroll tax or social security tax or medicare tax) while someone with a meager income pays at least 15% (in those same taxes mentioned above) even though they don't pay "income taxes". There are countless ways to make things more fair. Let's at least try them.

  • Christian 24-7 Murray, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 11:21 a.m.

    All you axes to grind people, the issue is the word choice for the discussion, not which class is the better class.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 12:31 p.m.

    “When seeds are sown, are we too foolish to know what kind of crop we will harvest?” Amen Mr. Richards.

    "There were years of hateful speech causing the de-humanizing of certain classes. Once they were systematically dehumanized, killing them was no longer murder, it became, in many minds, the solution." Amen "24-7"

    Individual persons can also be subjected too years of hateful speech. The President of the United States has been subjected too years of hateful speech. At times he has been accused of having the literal goal of destroying the United States in this very readers' forum. Not that this or that policy or action will cause unintended negative results, but he desires the destruction of the Republic. There are too many toxic seeds being sown.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 12:59 p.m.

    William Gronberg
    Payson, UT

    “When seeds are sown, are we too foolish to know what kind of crop we will harvest?” Amen Mr. Richards.

    [Would this be like how certain Republicans looked down upon Blacks, Hispanics, Women, the Young, the Poor -- the 47%...]

    "There were years of hateful speech causing the de-humanizing of certain classes. Once they were systematically dehumanized, killing them was no longer murder, it became, in many minds, the solution." Amen "24-7"

    [Would this be like how certain Republicans looked down upon Blacks, Hispanics, Women, the Young, the Poor -- the 47%...]

    You brought up the ClassWar-fare issue again, for the 2nd time this week, William Gronberg,
    but you still don't understand it at all.
    Even when it's put right in front of you.

  • Mike Richards South Jordan, Utah
    Dec. 7, 2012 1:43 p.m.

    LDS Liberal,

    Would this be like Democrats who refused to recognize "slaves" as real people?

    Clean your own house before telling Republicans to clean theirs._

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 4:42 p.m.

    Mike Richards
    South Jordan, Utah
    LDS Liberal,

    Would this be like Democrats who refused to recognize "slaves" as real people?

    Clean your own house before telling Republicans to clean theirs._

    1:43 p.m. Dec. 7, 2012

    ==============

    If you are referring to Democrats ala 1862 then Yes - because they were the CONSERVATIVES in those days.

    Republicans - (The party of Lincoln) were the Progressives, the uber-Liberals.

    and YES -
    That evil Progressive Liberal Republican, Abraham Licoln - who signed the that evil Liberal Emancipation Proclamation -- with the stoke of a pen and without Congressional approval - stripped away the PROPERTY of Slave owners, and set them Free -- imagine that!
    Isn't that your ultimate evil Liberal sin!
    Taking away one's "property"?

    Oh and one other thing - Blacks became ONE person -- and the "Massa" didn't get to vote FOR them anymore.

    And you come on here and whine daily about a silly 1 or 2% tax increases for Obamacare or a 4% increase of taxes on those making $1 Million a year?!

    Incredible I say!

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 6:30 p.m.

    Class ________?? I really do not know what word would be the best choice to substitute for “warfare”. Friction, antagonism, competition, clash, disagreement, conflict, contention. Yes there is a perceived problem between classes, but please, not warfare. Too many millions have already died.

    President Obama has been subjected too years of hateful speech. At times he has been accused of having the literal goal of destroying the United States. Not that a policy or action will cause unintended negative results, but he desires and actively works for the destruction of the Republic. There are too many toxic seeds being sown. “We need to address the hateful de-humanizing rhetoric before it escalates to actual warfare.”

    LDS Liberal: Mitt Romney did a fantastic job of making himself a fool at Marc Ledar's home. He made silly remarks about the now famous 47 %, but never once used the phrase, class warfare.

    Yes, totalitarian National Socialism killed far more communists than capitalists. They and totalitarian Soviet Communism were allies for several years. Ultimately they were fierce competitors for the same real estate.

    Totalitarian National Socialism is Anti-Marxist and very much Leninist.
    Totalitarian Soviet Communism is Marxist/Leninist.

  • There You Go Again Saint George, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 8:02 p.m.

    It's not class warfare when money is redistributed to the 2%.

    It's class warfare when the money is redistributed to the 98%.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Dec. 7, 2012 9:58 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" once again, Hitler was a SOCIALIST. Read the Nazi party platform.

    Communists were killed because they were competition, not because he disagreed with their politics.

    Look at Obama, have you noticed that everything is all about him? Even WH staff have mentioned that Obama put his picture everywhere. How about his gift to the Queen of England, copies of his speeches.

    American Businesses like doing business in China because China welcomes them. Obama has made it clear that he is against business, and the businessmen have reported such to the media.

    If today's conservatives are equal to yesterday's liberals, that means that yesterday's liberals are today's socialists/communists.

    Also, if you read the Constitution, Blacks are not mentioned, only slaves. There were white slaves too.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Dec. 8, 2012 7:46 a.m.

    Re: "The improper use of the term "class warfare" is an insult to the millions of victims of genuine class warfare."

    The real insult is to the intelligence of real people, by a leftist elite that has assumed, and jealously guards, some "authority" to define and frame all political discussion in such a way as to determine its outcome.

    Anyone who suggests the President's insistence on a completely ineffectual, but highly symbolic tax hike, singling out those he demonizes by a perjorative, politically charged term -- "the richest Americans" -- is anything other than a class-warfare tactic is selling something.

    Leftist, class-warfare dogma.

  • Stalwart Sentinel San Jose, CA
    Dec. 8, 2012 10:42 a.m.

    Redshirt - You and I both know that Hitler was not a socialist, no matter how many times you put it in all caps. We had this discussion on a different string a long time ago; do you need a refresher course?

    And every WH is full of new pictures of the President. While working for a Senator, I was invited to the WH under Bush43. I went through both wings and there were pictures all over of Bush, including activities he had done that week. That sort of jab from you is so petty to begin with and then fraught with inaccuracy it truly demonstrates a profound misunderstanding of our political system.

    Finally, you are mixing a very simple thing up: ideology with title. Conservative/liberal are not synonymous with Republican/Democrat. If you were unable to pick up that distinction, I hold little hope for any semblance of progress from you.

    procurdofiscal - Letting temporary tax cuts expire is not a tax hike; it is returning to normalcy. If these simple truths are lost on you, how do you believe you can understand the complex issues surrounding the American tax system?

    Re: "real people" - are there "fake people"?

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Dec. 8, 2012 1:08 p.m.

    @ Eric Samuelsen 10:11 a.m. Dec. 7, 2012

    "Rhetorical excess combined with historical ignorance; a nasty combination."

    Such a pithy, subtle, indirect way to condemn AM talk radio & Fixed noise, I love it.

    re: Mike Richards 1:43 p.m. Dec. 7, 2012

    "Clean your own house before telling Republicans to clean theirs."

    Really, Mike? Really? 90% of your posts are myopically judgemental.

    re: RedShirt 9:58 p.m. Dec. 7, 2012

    "Hitler was a SOCIALIST. Read the Nazi party platform."

    Hitler was a fascist (a strain of socialism); There is a checklist in Liberal Fascism by Jonah Goldberg (in the chapter Woodrow Wilson) and it would include Hitler IMO.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Dec. 8, 2012 1:43 p.m.

    @procuradorfiscal -- Calling those in America who are the richest "the richest Americans" is perjorative? Only if you're trying to perjoratively describe the person who is making the (by definition) true statement.

  • airnaut Everett, 00
    Dec. 8, 2012 2:28 p.m.

    William Gronberg
    Payson, UT

    RedShirt
    USS Enterprise, UT
    To "LDS Liberal" once again, Hitler was a SOCIALIST.

    ============

    I'm sorry you are both wrong.
    Hitler was a Fascist, not Socialist - even if you use all caps.

    just because NAZI stood for National Socialist doesn't make it Socialist,
    anymore then Federal Express is a Federal operation or Burger King is a monarch of hamburgers.

    It was a misnomer used by the Nazis to convince the the working class unions in Germany [who were in favor of Communism] to go side with them.

    I've read the platform, and read the 14 points of Fascism.

    GW Bush and most uber-far-right-wingers fit more into the NAZI party Platform which was far-right-wint - than any, Socialist.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Dec. 8, 2012 3:51 p.m.

    Airnaut:

    "just because NAZI stood for National Socialist doesn't make it Socialist,
    anymore then Federal Express is a Federal operation or Burger King is a monarch of hamburgers."

    You are correct sir. I only used National Socialism because that is a name that most people would recognize. Names can reveal, conceal or distort what they identify.

    LDS Liberal @ 11:04 a.m. Point # 3

    From the book, The Black Book of Communism. Printed by Harvard University Press, 1999, Page 487.

    Subject is the “Great Leap Forward”

    The Greatest Famine in History (1959-1961)

    “For many years one myth was common in the West: that although China was far from being a model democracy, at least Mao had managed to give a bowl of rice to every Chinese. Unfortunately, nothing could be further from the truth.” ...”Mao and the system that he created were directly responsible for what was, and, one hopes, will forever remain the most murderous famine of all times, anywhere in the world."

    See page 464. "Estimates range from 20 million to 43 million dead...". "All victims of a famine caused by the misguided project of a single man, Mao Zedong..."

  • Wally West SLC, UT
    Dec. 8, 2012 4:10 p.m.

    re: airnaut 2:28 p.m. Dec. 8

    "just because NAZI stood for National Socialist doesn't make it Socialist,
    anymore then Federal Express is a Federal operation or Burger King is a monarch of hamburgers."

    I don't care who you are. That right there is funny!

    "GW Bush and most uber-far-right-wingers fit more into the NAZI party Platform which was far-right-wint - than any, Socialist."

    You mean Dubya wasn't a compassionate conservative!?

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Dec. 9, 2012 12:51 p.m.

    Is it class warfare when the average CEO takes (please note I didn't say makes) 500 times what their workers make? Or is it class warfare when the workers take note of this and then vote someone like Obama into office?