When unchecked capitalism is worshipped until 5 percent of the population owns
half of everything (including the legislators and judges) while thousands go
hungry or bankrupt to pay medical bills, our moral compass has indeed been
misdirected. This downward cycle is well-known. When bigotry is
sanctioned and our grandfathers tune into a a steady stream of duplicitous fear
mongering, the U.S. is on a troubled path that the next generation will correct.
This is history's greatest nation. It's future is bright.
Neither fear nor despair serve anyone.
Lies! 47 percent do not rely on the government. They simply have no tax
liability and simply take the deductions and credits that are allowed under
Unlike many many sore-losers in Utah, I am so happy every morning when I wake up
and Barack Obama is President.We all saw first-hand the so-called
"morals" of Mitt Romney. Bullet dodged!
America has been "fundamentally transformed" and declining in every way
that a country can decline, morally, culturally and economically. How did the
Democrats do it: entitlements, redistribution, class warfare, big intrusive
government and massive debt. Its only going to get worse, so hunker down because
as the author said, the compass is still pointing the wrong way!
Ah, the good old days when a "man" could get a job at Kennecott support
his family pay his taxes,( remember evethough he deducted his mortgage and his
tithing.. rates were so high that he still had to pay), take a vacation..all
because his income and job were protected by the union. Or..maybe you could go
to school and become a white collar worker..all on Uncle Sams dime..GI bill. In
fact Frank almost everyone in the neighborhood where you grew up did just that
got their start via the government. Doesn't matter they had to serve in
the military to get it..they succeeded because of the government. Now we get to work for MR and his friends making $15 an hour no benefits, and
no future and have to endure being called immoral by the likes of you because we
fall below the poverty level and don't make enough money to pay taxes if we
take a mortgage deduction. No worry though Repbulicans are proposing taking
away that deduction so yipee we get to join the ranks of tax payers..we still
make $15 and hour and have no benefits..but were moral.
Go to the library and check out the books The Decline and Fall of the Roman
Empire, if you can find them. You will find some disturbing parallels with how
the U.S. is now going. All you whiny liberal/progressives need to find another
@Owen- can you tell us one industry in America where we have "unchecked
capitalism"? Also can you provide a specific example on anyone who has gone
hungry or bankrupt because of medical bills? (anyone who doesn't have a
cable/internet package that is)
Americans need a hand up, not a handout. I'm starting to agree more and
more with the Demos. on the DN forum. I don't agree with EVERYTHING the
demos. propose; BUT- I think we should give Obama our best support we can muster
for the next 4 yrs.Unethical business persons are causing more and
more problems for the general population.Can Obama and the demos.
turn things around?I hope so.
Isn't old fashioned HONESTY still a moral value?If so, why does
this writer lie when he writes: "When 47 percent of the population is
dependent upon government for their very livelihood and doesn't contribute
anything to the tax base."That is an outright and bald faced
lie.There was a study done awhile ago that determined that at least
91% of all Americans, including those at the highest levels of income, benefit
directly from more than one of the "programs" many claim to despise.When someone like this letter writer lie to try to make a point about
morality, they lose all credibility with intelligent people.
Legalizing same-sex marriage is a sign that the majority of Americans have
achieved moral clarity about the importance of the equal application of civil
rights to all American citizens.Decriminalizing marijuana is
similarly evidence that the public recognizes that including marijuana in the
"war on drugs" is ruinously expensive, ineffective and a breeding ground
for violent drug gangs.I've read enough of Frank's letters
over the years to conclude that were he alive in 1920 and 1933, he would
similarly claim that our nation is morally adrift because women won the right to
vote and Prohibition was repealed.
Frank Overfelt has just written the perfect Conservative manifesto.He covered "going back" to just about everything black & white
thing the movie "Pleasantville" had to offer.Selective
reasoning I'm sure to remember the good, and forget the bad...Leaving
out Segregation, Civil Rights, lynchings, family violence and abuse, It wasn't a rosy or picture perfect bak then Frank."Leave
it to Beaver", "I Love Lucy" ect, were TV shows - many of the
actors were real life alcoholics.BTW - Speaking of the "good
wars" - We fought AGAINST ultra-far-right-wing-Conservatives back then who
longed to go back to the Good 'ol Days.But I will agree -
Republicans now have us starting Offensive Wars all over the world for OIL and
other plunder, rather than for peace, Freedom and the Constitution of the United
States [that "blankey-blank piece of paper" of paper as GW Bush
referreed to it.]
Red State (is that a communist state?) asks if we can identify any business
practicing "unchecked capitalism." Yes. Banks and Wall Street are
almost unchecked. Unchecked enough that the damage they do is horrendous.He then asks if anyone knows anyone who has gone bankrupt because of
health costs. Yes. Several people including two of my own children.Then he adds parenthetically that in order to qualify for his definition they
may not have internet or cable hook-ups. Yeah, right.But then, I
guess there is some hope out there that at least some intelligent life exists in
Utah when 1Conservative confesses that he is beginning to see the light.Again, may I recommend that everyone who posts here get and read the
book "Who Stole the American Dream," by Hedrick Smith.
Frank and most Conservatives seem to be worried about the erosion of our
Society.To suit their political agenda, they select and choose what they
deem to the cause of it, and judge other behaviors accordingly.The
TRUTH is this -- "The measure of a civilization is how it treats
its weakest members." The Nephites, Greeks, Romans, ect... or
any other civilazation who tramples the poor, needy, sick, elderly, children,
[or any other MINORITY] under their feet are doomed to destruction.The end of the Book of Mormon has the once great Nephites - who had the truth
- dispising the these, and loving WAR more than Peeace. They went on the
OFFENSIVE.In the end - the poor, commune living, pipe smoking, long
haired, near naked, "liberal" Lamanites won, and kept possession of the
promised land of inheritance.I'll follow who God has judged
will inherit the land, and not fall for Conservative opinions.
@one old man- how are banks and "Wall Street" practicing "unchecked
capitalism"? Is there no regulatory oversight? The Dodd- Frank legislation
brought to you by Democrats simply ensured that previously "too big to
fail" banks would become even more too big to fail and small, community
banks would be crippled. John Corzine former CEO of Goldman Sachs was the
Democrat Governor of NJ. Loyd Blankfein current CEO of Goldman Sachs is pretty
tight with the White House. I wonder why? All the hotshot super rich on
the Board of Directors at Costco who all vocally support Obama's plan to
raise taxes on the rich just voted to borrow 300 billion to pay out to
shareholders this year to avoid increased tax rates on dividends coming next
year. Is that enough hypocrisy for you? BTW- I bet that book you recommend
contains one word: Republicans.
Mr. Overfelt's moral compass is not pointing towards the present location
of the magnetic north pole. It is a fact that the north and south magnetic
poles are moving. Situation ethics also causes the moral compasses of many
letter writers to move. No person (I am a person) or groups of persons have a
monopoly on the truth, situation ethics or moving moral compasses.Mr. Overfelt's moral compass is totally challenged when he states the
following:“When 47 percent of the population is dependent upon
government for their very livelihood and doesn't contribute anything to the
tax base, ...”Why is the truth NOT good enough Mr. Overfelt??
Frank,I'm hoping your 47% error is an accidental misunderstanding
rather than an intentional lie. The 47% is referring to people with no federal
income tax liability. This includes seniors, working poor, families of 4 earning
less than $50K a year. Many of these people still pay payroll taxes. Mitt Romney
helped torpedo his own campaign with that statement (and for good reason--it was
chock full of arrogant inaccuracies), but it looks like some of his supporters
still lack the motivation to look up who the 47% really is. In fact, a fair
number of that demographic probably voted for Romney.Politifact
broke down this statistic and their analysis is easily looked up if you are
having difficulty understanding the difference here. Would take less time to
educate yourself on this than it did to pen this letter.
Communitarianism is the form of government espoused by the original
conservatives, the followers of John Adams. In this system everyone relies on
the efforts of the community to better their own lives. Children get in less
trouble when their neighbors are keeping an eye on them as well as their own
children. When someone's barn burned down the entire community pitched in
to help build it back knowing that they could be in the same situation at a
future time. Times have changed as have the circumstances of our lives, but the
concept is still a strong one that should be practiced. In a true communitarian
society everyone relies on the government and contributes their part to make our
nation, states and communities strong, just like the old days. Everyone
benefits because everyone contributes. Independent cowboys end up living lonely
I wonder how many veterans of World War II used the G.I. Bill to get a head
start. It is a government program and a darn good one that helped veterans
out-deservedly. It is time to for many conservatives to take off
the blinders. Government has aided many people for a long time.
Reading it again, something else really irritates me about this letter. Mr.
Overfelt exaggerates the positions of many who vote Democratic in this nation,
suggesting we feel capitalism is "evil" (capitalism is fine, outright
greed is the problem), that we have no desire to contribute to the nation, and
peddles the mythology of a morally pure America of the 40s, 50s, and 60s. The
America that never existed except in the minds of certain conservatives.Mr. Overfelt's entire lecture on our lost moral compass uses so
many patently dishonest examples that it ought to be printed verbatim in the
dictionary next to the word "irony".
I believe a poll was released just yesterday which confirmed that 51% of
Americans support same-sex marriage and only about 4 in 10 oppose it. That
poll is not an outlier either, it is steadily becoming the norm. The
thing conservatives don't seem to understand is they are not just fighting
liberals, they are also fighting against time itself. Over time, our society
always moves towards progress and that inherently defeats conservatism. For us
liberals, every social issue is not an "if" but rather a matter of
"when." Keep your heads up, liberal Utahns. The day will soon come
when the letter writer will be the minority in your state.
Stalwart Sentinel, what you say is mostly correct, but I hope that you'd
recognize that what's really important is for all of us -- liberal or not
-- to carefully examine all ideas that come along.Not all are good
ones.If most of us will carefully examine ourselves, we'll
probably find that our ideas and opinions are a mixture of liberal,
conservative, and moderate ideas.The true application of wisdom
requires that all of us look carefully at ideas coming from all sides and try to
use good judgement to choose those we will support and those we will oppose.That takes effort, though, and too many of us are simply willing to let
others make the decisions for us when we blindly accept the propaganda of either
Like most of his letters, this one is "over-felt" but
"under-thought". Why is it a sin for those who owe no income tax to pay
no income tax? Just once I would like Frank to hold forth on why it is just
fine for General Electric to pay no tax on billions in income, but not ok for
Joe Lunchbucket to do the same? Again, isn't the mantra of his party never
to raise taxes even as they bemoan the demise of the greatest Country in an
ocean of debt? Is there a possible line of logic here I am missing??
LDS Liberal,"The measure of a civilization is how it treats its
weakest members." I agree with that. And I am not terribly
familiar with the Book of Mormon or the examples you cited, but I have read King
Benjamin's sermon and was both impressed with its morality and surprised at
how dissimilar it was to modern conservative fiscal positions in the US. I am
frankly amazed so many conservative LDS people can be so vitriolic and
condescending about the working poor and disadvantaged when that long, oft-cited
passage is in their own scriptures. In fact, from what I remember of reading the
Book of Mormon, there were an abundance of passages telling people to help the
poor without any mention of whether it was the role of government or whether the
poor were "deserving". Then you have the age-old "camel
through the eye of a needle" analogy that many wealthy and wealth-chasing
Christian conservatives seem to pretend doesn't exist. That very Biblical
passage should have John Boehner & Mitch McConnell accusing Jesus of class
warfare, but they are strangely silent on that.
Nothing has changed from 1950's America. Ezra Taft Benson warned
Americans about collectivist sentiment in the Eisenhower cabinet and the state
department who promoted Communist revolutions of Mao and Stalin back then and
creeping socialism in America.The only difference between the
Republicans and the democrats, between Bush and Obama in the 21st century is
that Bush was leading the country towards the collectivist destination as a
hypocrite and Obama is doing it as an avowed Socialist. They are both
socialist.Obama and Bush have both worked for the government
ownership and control of everything with the profits from big government debt
going to their employers.... the international/Federal Reserve and wall street
bankers.Nothing has changed.
The only "moral compass" I need is "Do unto others as I would have
them do unto me".Therefore I support same-sex marriage.I
oppose CEO-takes-all capitalism.I support the right of women to choose
whether or not they'll bear children.I oppose the Christian take-over
of the US government.If you would discriminate against others, deny
women their free choice, allow CEO's to make over 400x the wages of their
employees, you have no "moral compass".
"Ezra Taft Benson warned Americans about collectivist sentiment in the
Eisenhower cabinet and the state department who promoted Communist revolutions
of Mao and Stalin back then and creeping socialism in America."Ezra Taft Benson also spoke out against subsidies to Big Ag and Big Oil yet
how many Utahns support these things? How many Mormons would be upset if the
government took away their Big Ag and Big Oil handouts? I just want
to see consistency from repubs. If they hate handouts to poor people then they
should also hate handouts to rich people too. Ger rid of student aids? Sure,
just as long as you raise Mitt's tax rate back up to what they were in the
The moral compass that is in place as far as those who rule this world through
the control of a credit based monetary system is: Those that have
the Gold make the rules. (Golden rule)
A few points Frank.1) The 47% pay no federal income tax. They still pay
state, property, excise, sales and payroll taxes.2) Many rich Americans
are part of that 47% as with tax shelters, tax credits, deductions and
depreciation they pay no federal income tax.3) In your good old days, a
majority of white Americans tolerated the racial discrimination and segregation.
Discrimination of any kind is lacking a moral compass.
If I had a time-machine....I'd take each and everyone of these
ultra-Cons yearning for the Good 'ol days, and send them right back
where they belong!It wasn't as rosy as you might think.I for one, I'm for eternal PROGRESSION, not regression.Keep moving Foward.
@ eagle- yes the GI Bill was a successful program but the key point is that the
former soldiers who were eligible for it actually performed a vital service for
America. They soldiered for low pay and the GI Bill was a benefit they earned-
part of their compensation. Now you can qualify for a SNAP card just because you
happen to have been born in the US. Do you see the difference?
red state pride:I'm not sure the tea party would want either
program in which you speak. I have no idea what SNAP is but I'll take your
word for it. So some government programs work and some don't. But some
actually do and those that say NO to everything must realize that. Also, there
was no promise of a G.I. Bill so I suppose it was an idea generated by somebody
somewhere in government, perhaps Truman. Bottom line, somebody thought
government action in this way could do a lot of good and it did.
re:eagleSNAP is the food stamp program. (Supplemental Nutirition
Assistance Program). It is a federal program, but state-administered. I know a
person here with MS whose sole source of income is approx $950 from disability
who exceeds the income limits for SNAP. re:Iron&ClayIn political matters, Ezra Taft Benson was a believer in the John Birch
Society calling it "the most effective non-church organization in our fight
against creeping socialism and Godless Communism." In fact, his son became
the head of the UT John Birch Society. Benson was on the extreme end of the
Republican Party at the time. In 1965, on returning to Salt Lake (from Europe)
he stated; "Before I left for Europe I warned how the communists were using
the civil rights movement to promote revolution and eventual takeover of this
country. When are we going to wake up? Now, Brethren, the Lord never promised
there would not be traitors in the Church. We have the ignorant, the sleepy and
the deceived who provide temptations and avenues of apostasy for the unwary and
Commenters on DN should remember 'do unto others as you would have others
do unto you' or, in other words, judge not lest ye be judged'.
It sounds like SNAP is good for those that need it. Perhaps too many people are
using it or taking advantage of it that might not need it. But I am one that
thinks some safety nets are good for a variety of reasons. I think that the
program could be streamlined but I'm not for eliminating it altogether
which I'm sure might be at odds with red state pride. I also think we
should get our military out of foreign countries and use our troops to help
defend our borders and help with disasters when they occur.
Grover's flaw in his post is that it is his party that opposes ending the
deductions which allow GE to pay no taxes. Instead his party wants to raise tax
rates, and GE will still deduct it all away and pay nothing. But it donates a
lot to the Democrats!!!Who is serious about the financial solvency
of the nation? Come on folks, lets get real.
As far a I can tell the effect of lower rates or higher deductions allowed is
exactly the same to the bottom line of the tax coffers that run the government.
We are arguing about the deck chairs as the ship takes on water. The difference
between the letter writer and myself is that I believe that BOTH parties have
some truth in their positions, where as Frank sees the scene as black and white
with the right possessing the "right view" and the other side as evil.
Hence no discussion or compromise is possible. As far as who donates to which
party, please get real: the big money flows to whichever side will do their
bidding... the big boys are amoral politically. They do not care which side
"wins" only that they get their place at the public trough and their
viewpoint enacted into law.
@ Mountanman 7:09 a.m. Dec. 1, 2012You are right The US has been
*transformed* & here is how the GOP did it...entitlements
(Corporate tax credits), redistribution (Credit default swaps and other Wall St
Ponzi schemes), class warfare (top 1% angelic 47% bad) , big intrusive
government (Patriot act, DHS, TSA) and massive debt (because invading Iraq
(twice) & Afghanistan wasn't cheap).
The conservative Utopia dream marches on past election cliff.
Doesn't it seem odd to anyone that conservatives can both argue that taxes
= stealing and that 47% of the population are "freeloaders" for not
paying income tax? That's what you wanted...How flakey.
To suggest that the amassing of wealth is the same as capitalism is to display a
thinking error. The current economic environment in these United States is not
true capitalism but only the use of capitalism to amass wealth. True capitalism
embraces restraint because it is dependent on having a class of consumers who
buy what is produced. The unfettered collection and hoarding of wealth by those
who produce nothing is anti-thesis to capitalism.
ScrewdriverReasonable fair taxes are part of living in a functional
society. Living off the work of someone else is freeloading. Middle
class folks are not rich, but do pay about 40% of their income to taxes. This is
not reasonable. People who pay no income tax benefit from
infrastructure the taxpayers provide, but that is not freeloading because they
are not living off it. It is when people want government funds to pay for their
personal living expenses that they are freeloaders. You clearly
don't even consider what conservatives are saying and your point is silly
and out of touch with the real conservative values.
To "LDS Liberal" being a hippie and throwing rocks at police does not
count as a war.Would you (and Emajor) fall for the opinions of the
church you claim membership in? If you do, you will have to be a conservative
because LDS doctrine is more inline with modern conservativism than your
socialist/liberal dogma.First, you have the multiple prophets that
have declared Socialism to be wrong. The prophets that have said that socialism
and communism are wrong include Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber J. Grant,
Spencer W. Kimball, and Ezra Taft Benson.You also have scriptures
like D&C 134:2 "We believe that no government can exist in peace, except
such laws are framed and held inviolate as will secure to each individual the
free exercise of conscience, the right and control of property, and the
protection of life." which are contrary to socialism and communism.
Good article and hits the nail on the head. I heard a discussion the other day
by a particular commentator which exposes how so many in this country are still
missing the point. This guy was asking "where are all the great
leaders"? He went on to suggest that we don't have any great leaders
like in the past and it would only take one great leader to pull us out of the
hole we are in. Well this guy was half right. We certainly don't have a
leader in White House nor do we have one in the senate. However to elect a great
leader it takes a great people and that is where America has fallen. Bad leaders
don't elect themselves - bad people elect bad leaders. America still has a
portion of good people - even millions - but there are more that would qualify
for the "bad bucket" than the good which is a major change from the
1940's and even up to the 1990's. America has tipped to what is now a
socialist country largely. Like Europe America has fallen into a black hole -
most likely unrecoverable and it all has to do with integrity.
Redshirt1701Deep Space 9, UtWhen the prophet finally says
throw rocks, THEN we'll throw rocks.Until then, drop the rebel
rousing rhetoric.I believe Pres. Thomas S. Monson is the prophet --
not brother Glenn Beck.
To "Open Minded Mormon" for somebody who claims to be open minded, you
sure sound closed minded.D&C 1:38 "whether by mine own voice
or by the voice of my servants, it is the same" Keep that in mind while
reading the following:"Remember that the gospel of Jesus Christ
is not compatible with radicalism or communism or any other of the
“isms.” There could be those who would profess to be your
saviors." - President Spencer W kimball in Our Paths have met Again"Communism and all other similar isms bear no relationship whatever to the
United Order. They are merely the clumsy counterfeits which Satan always devises
of the gospel plan. Communism debases the individual and makes him the enslaved
tool of the state to whom he must look for sustenance and religion" - Heber
Grant, First Presidency Message April 1942."Another notable
counterfeit system to the Lord's plan is collectivized socialism...
Communism in practice is socialism." President Benson A Vision and a Hope
forthe Youth of Zion"I attended a second lecture on
Socialism...I said I did not believe the doctrine." Joseph Smith
Out of the 10 states with the highest percentage of people in the state among
the 47%, Obama won 1 (Florida). Romney won the other 9. Goodness, if Obama
cleaned up among the 47% he'd have won around 400 electoral votes.
Many people call the people that lived thru the Great Depression, won WW2, and
built the infrastructure of our nation the Greatest Generation. I agree with
that assessment. Unfortunately, the Greatest Generation raised the
most selfish generation as well. Their kids grew up feeling that they are
entitled to a modern nation without having to pay for it.When their
parents paid tax rates much higher than today, they complain of being TAXED
ENOUGH ALREADY (TEA Party). They want a society that forces the younger
generations to sustain their standard of living at the cost of their own. That
is why they approved of the Medicare plans being proposed during the campaign
for POTUS. to be continued........
continued:They would get their medicare protected for 10 years then
force the younger generation to use vouchers that will not be able to meet the
cost of coverage. Never mind the fact that the issue with Medicare is the
amount of seniors that will enroll in the plan over the next 10 years is what is
driving the real costs.Yes, the moral compass of this nation is
misdirected. When people demand their Medicare and social Security be protected
and then curse anyone else that may need it as well. Sad.
"He went on to suggest that we don't have any great leaders like in the
past and it would only take one great leader to pull us out of the hole we are
in."Careful. Some of the greatest threats to democracy and
freedom have been conceived by that seemingly benign statement.
@ red state pride: "Also can you provide a specific example on anyone who
has gone hungry or bankrupt because of medical bills?"Studies
repeatedly show that the #1 cause of bankruptcy in the US is due to medical
debt, accounting for almost 2/3 of bankruptcy filings.
Res NovaeAshburn, VA@ red state pride: "Also can you provide a
specific example on anyone who has gone hungry or bankrupt because of medical
bills?"===========Agreed!That was about
the most absurd comment I've ever heard.Thanks again for
calling him on it!
To "atl134" the demographics, which eliminate location, show that the
typical Obama voter makes less than $50,000/yr (Gallup found this out.)Apparently the takes did vote for more "free stuff".To
"Res Novae" the statistics also show that most people who file
bankruptcy get their debts restructured, so that they not only lose nothing, but
they also can afford to eat and pay their bills. You can let this go.
Redshirt - your disdain for anyone who voted for Obama is clear, and i just
don't get it. This crowd of "takers" as you call them used to be
called blue collar workers, the bread and butter, the heart of the American of
old. These are the people who built our houses, repaired our roads, taught our
kids, delivered our mail and fixed our cars. They used to be looked as those
who do the jobs others don't want to - so that they can provide for their
families. Now they are spit upon with disdain as takes, socialist,
free-loaders, because others think somehow they are subsidizing unfairly these
peoples lives. And yet these same people have no problem shopping at the mega
stores that offer lower prices because they pay lower wages. All
that Gallup's poll shows is that it was average Americans that voted for
Obama. The national average wage index for 2011 was $42,979.61. So what
gallup poll says is average people voted..... those that you brand as people who
just want "free stuff". Republicans Pride - takes on all
kinds of meanings.
To "UtahBlueDevil" it isn't disdain for people who voted for Obama.
I hate the lies that your ilk perpetuates. When people like "atl134"
claim that the average person who voted for Romney are the poor that pay no
taxes based on county information, when the truth is that the average Obama
voter is the taker.Why do you hate people that correct the lies that
your ilk believes?The symbol of a donkey for the Democrats takes on
a different meaning because of you and your ilk.
Redshirt: DeseretNews.com encourages a civil dialogue among its readers.
@Redshirt1701,My colleagues at my former law firm who handle
bankruptcy cases would disagree that having their clients' assets
liquidated by a court means they "lose nothing" in the process.But that wasn't the point. I was answering the challenge to show that
medical bills are responsible for anyone's bankruptcy. They not only are
responsible, they are *overwhelmingly* responsible for the majority of
bankruptcies. Don't move the goalposts to sustain your argument.
Redshirt, people making 50,000 are year are making over average. They pay
federal taxes. They are not "takers". Don't be silly. You
didn't mention how much the average Romney voter made. Of course people
that only make 20,000 are not takers either. Neither are people that make less.
That is about the dumbest argument Rebpublcans make. And I hope they continue to
lose elections because of their stance. To say that people that go
through bankruptcy becausd of medical can not, and do not lose a lot shows an
extreme disconnect from reality. I personally know people that have lost almost
everything because of medical bills.
To "Res Novae" see "U.S. MEDICAL BANKRUPTCIES A MYTH; PERSONAL
BANKRUPTCY RATE HIGHER IN CANADA" National Center for Policy Analysis.People use medical reasons as an excuse.The fact is that
even under "liquidation" people don't lose everything. Maybe you
should talk with your lawyer friends about what it really mean, and what is
liquidated.It is just an excuse for overspending. It is like many
who leave the LDS church by saying that they were offended or something else
like that. They were looking to leave, but didn't have the excuse yet to
leave that didn't make them look stupid. The same with people who claim
medical bills for bankruptcy. Many don't want to admit that they were
spending too much, and now have a way to get out.To "mark"
the $50,000 was a quick number to type. The fact remains that the typical Obama
voter was somebody who pays no income taxes to the Federal Government.
Redshirt,You're citing a right-wing thinktank article quoting
portions of another right-wing thinktank study in Canada? I'm looking at a
peer-reviewed Harvard study. You stick to your confirmation bias, I'll
stick to mine.As an aside, Utah has one of the highest bankruptcy
rates in the nation. The primary cause: medical bills. See Johnson and
Wright's article "Are Mormons Bankrupting Utah? Evidence from the
Bankruptcy Courts" published by the Suffolk Law Review in 2007 (The answer
to their question is no, if anyone's curious).Medical bills as
an excuse for overspending? That's your unsupported assertion, nothing
more. I'm inclined to believe the reasons people put down on legal
documents submitted to the court -- bankruptcy judges hate perjury.Bankruptcy law isn't my area of practice, but I'm pretty confident
that I understand what liquidation means in a bankruptcy proceeding. It is far
To "Res Novae" no, Medical Bills are not an excuse for overspending.
The people have already overspent. They are using Medical Bills as an excuse
for declaring bankruptcy.You obviously didn't read or
comprehend the study comparing bankruptcy rates in the US to Canada. The study
found that Canada has nearly the same bankruptcy rate. So, if medical bills
account for 1/2 of US bankrupcies and Canada has univesal care, why doesn't
Canada have 1/2 the bankruptcy rate that the US has?What you fail to
recognize is the simple fact that you can google the statistics yourself. The
fact remains that the Canadian bankruptcy rate is nearly the same (possibly
higher) as the US rate. If it is Medical bills that cause the problem why does
Canada have so many bankruptcies?
The real question each of us should be asking is what sort of America do we want
for our kids and grandkids? That "traditional America" is fast
evaporating and along with it what is left of the American dream of home
ownership and personal freedoms. Following this socialist model isn't going
to take us to a good place - in fact we could find ourselves hopeless and broke
just like Greece in a surprisingly accelerated time table.
Redshirt, your article you refer to about bankruptcies in the USA and Canada is
rather flawed. You might want to look into the article a bit more, and read
about the writer and the group that is behind it, as well as reading some
critiques of it.
To "mark" your lame excuse for not looking into the data presented is
rather sad.If you do some lookin on the internet, you will find the
same data presentd in the paper. You may not agree with the article, but the
fact remains that Canada and the US have similar bankruptcy rates.Are you going to actually look for the data or just complain and show that you
are biased against people who present facts you don't like?
Really, Redshirt? I did look into the data, and it is flawed. Like I said. The
article you refer to has some problems. And that is not an excuse, lame or
otherwise. Did you look into the data? No, really, did you? I'll say it
again. It is flawed. I looked into it. You should do the same. Of
course, that leads us to the question: are you able to look at things
To "mark" explain how it is flawed. From what I could find, the data
was valid (it does depend on the year you look at).Prove it. So far
you have nothing but your opinion. I have backed up my opinion with some
verifiable evidence.So far you appear to have your fingers in your
ears and are singing because you don't like the fact that I, a conservative
have again proved you wrong.If you have any evidence to show
something else, present it.
You proved me wrong? Really? You do understand what that means don't you?
You have done nothing but to present a headline. So I'll give you a
headline:Highly Questionable Medical Bankruptcy Figures from Fraser
Institute- Bob Lawless, Credit Slips. But it doesn't matter.
You already pointed out the flaw of your article. I'll quote you, "it
does depend on the year you look at"Ding, ding, ding, ding. We
have a winner! Yes, like you say, it depends on the year you look
at, that Redshirt, would be called a flawed conclusion. The other problem with
the article is that the study it refers to is way to simplistic. It does not
look at the cause behind the bankruptcies, just the total amount. That does
nothing to show WHAT causes the bankruptcies. You got one of the
problems with the study. Hey, with just a little more thought you might have got
the other problem all on you own.