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In our opinion: Secession silliness is unproductive

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  • Nan BW ELder, CO
    Nov. 19, 2012 7:17 a.m.

    Clearly, we have a huge mess. What better suggestion do you have to offer? I am not in favor of succession, but it is a legal way of registering a protest, and is not indicative of adolescent behavior. Are you a sore winner?

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 7:34 a.m.

    Its not just silly, its unpatriotic.

    So much for the Republican's claim to being the patriots.

  • Hemlock Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 7:56 a.m.

    Succession is a political statement, not a plan. When bush won there were some who threatened to immigrate to Canada, etc. Most of the time the US would be better off if these people got their wish.

  • Claudio Springville, Ut
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:09 a.m.

    Oh good grief.

    Succession: events happening after each other; transfer of power; etc.
    Secession: separating from a union (confederacy, federation, etc.).

    What is so hard about vowels? That speaks more than any silly petition.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:09 a.m.

    Excellent editorial. Well said. Thank you.

  • pragmatistferlife salt lake city, utah
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:13 a.m.

    You know what makes it even more childish is over the past 30 years Repbulicans/conservatives have pretty much had their way. Taxes have gone from 70% to 35%, passive income taxes have gone from 35% to 15%, Obamacare is a Heritage foundation idea, and we have fought three wars. Now with the simple suggestion that incomes over $250,000 pay an additional 3-4 percent, ruin has set in. Traditional America is destroyed..bla,bla,bla.

  • RichardB Murray, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:28 a.m.

    It's being used to get the White house to address issues.

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:29 a.m.

    When the Founding Fathers realized England had no interest in working with them for the good of England, they wrote, signed, and delivered the Declaration of Independence. When they signed it, they did so as the duly chosen representatives of the colonists, they knew the majority of the colonists supported them, and they knew it was an act of treason and they were risking their homes, their livelihoods, their families, and their lives.

    The Founding Fathers are American patriots because they won and the United States were formed. But they were traitors to England.

    Secession petitions are petitions to no longer be Americans. They are jokes or attention getters. They are serious business. And you should not sign one unless you really mean it. Anything else is indeed silly.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:46 a.m.

    I suspect that 99.9% of the people who sign secession petitions are just trying to make a statement. If that's all it is, it's a legitimate exercise of their 1st Amendment rights to freedom of expression, if not a particularly intelligent exercise. Most of them will be back to vote in the next election.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 19, 2012 8:54 a.m.

    I think the left is entirely missing the point on this issue! We are already seeing a succession in America. Its the innovators, the investors, the taxpayers and the capitol risk takers backing away, hunkering down and going into a survival mode; thus a succession from Obamacare, Obamaclaus entitlements and federal government mandates which we have no hope of paying for! The declining stock market is one barometer of this massive succession, but there will be many others! The states where this is talked about have no intention of leaving the union, they are just trying to survive Obama for 4 more years by succeeding from Obama's takeover of private property (massive taxes), state's rights and freedom!

  • Kalindra Salt Lake City, Utah
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:00 a.m.

    Sorry - my previous comment should say "not a joke."

    If there are issues you would like the government to address, petition for those issues to be addressed. Petitioning for secession is petitioning to forfeit your citizenship.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:06 a.m.

    Mountanman,

    I think that you are right. For MOST of the signers, this is a political protest and not a serious bid for secession.

    But secession is serious business and not something to be trifled with. If folks want to protest, scream, and shout - they should. If they want to try again next election and maybe even run themselves - they should. But unconstitutional acts are not the way to save the constitution.

    If we do in fact love the constitution, then we must stay within its bounds in order to preserve. There is no other avenue. Doing things outside of the constitution inherently damage our republic and the respect we should all have for the document that created it.

  • William Gronberg Payson, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:09 a.m.

    The most important statements were made by the voters of the United States of America.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:19 a.m.

    @Mountanman -- Call it what you want. Rationalize all you want. But truth to tell, signing such a petition is unpatriotic, or at best, extremely childish. Keep up the stunts and crazy rhetoric and then wonder why many people are afraid to vote Republican. Actually trying to start a civil war is one of those things most people think is nuts. Add that to legitimate rape, doubts about science, the absolute surety that only white people want to work, the absolute surety that people born in Hawaii are not US citizens, and on and on, and most people are just turned off.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:23 a.m.

    "At a time like this, we can't risk partisan bickering and political posturing. Our leaders have to reach across the aisle to do the people's work. And we citizens also have to rise to the occasion." and then Romney followed with the only reason people voted for Obama is because he offered them lavish giveaways. Hence why Romney is not president today.

    "The declining stock market is one barometer of this massive succession,"

    ummm - under Obama the stock market rose from the Bush low of 6,600 to over 12,000... in 4 years. More selective cherry picking of facts to make some kind of politically motivated rhetoric. The markets performance is a documented fact - you can't selectively say this week it is Obama's fault because it is down, but the over trend doubling in value in 4 years - he gets no credit for that.

    This just points to the fact this is just all emotionally driven talking points. Obama hasn't done everything perfect. Hardly. But until we get conversations back to rational adult levels, we will continue to see this over the top media driven hyperbolic pattern of behavior.

    Stocks are up 162 today so far... meaning what?

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:33 a.m.

    @ Wm Gronberg: Voters in America voted for a continuation and increases of free stuff from the government! Those fewer in number of Americans who are faced with paying for it have been seriously disenfranchised. Even worse, Obama ran on a "balance approach of cutting spending and higher taxes" to solving our massive deficit and national debt. Now that he has been re-elected, all talk of cutting spending have vanished and now the people who already pay nearly 80% of all federal income taxes are faced with the impossible task of paying for it all! Even if Obama taxed the "rich" 100%, it would only temporarily bring in about $150 billion/for the first year. Not even considering any of the other entitlements Obama wants to give away, Obamacare alone is forecast to cost taxpayers $1.2 trillion/year! Anyone with a brain or a calculator can see that this is not going to work at all!

  • Midvaliean MIDVALE, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:47 a.m.

    yeah, let them protest. Nothing will come of this, other than putting your name on a list for the NSA/CIA to look at. HEre is a list of potential domestic terrorists is what they will see. Thank your local representative that gave powers for the patriot act when this happens.

  • hurleyscope rockledge, FL
    Nov. 19, 2012 9:50 a.m.

    this movement is NOT about the election. It is about the executive orders giving our US sovereignty to the UN, It's about NDAA, TSA... carbon taxes, the federal reserve, federal raids on american factories who aren't sending their jobs to china. ( see GIBSON GUITAR).

    It is short sighted and petty to believe this movement is a bunch of sore losers. I knew MY candidate didn't stand a chance. I was ready to amass an independence movement when I realized the press was having a difficult time differentiating the stands of the two major candidates.
    At what point will you get angry? When they come to take YOUR kid away because he is too outspoken about his contempt for NDAA allowing the army to arrest people without warrant or charge, to be held indefinitely, possibly forever?
    We now have amerikan troops patrolling our streets, illegally.
    Your fourth amendment is gone, your FIRST amendment is gone.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:07 a.m.

    Ranchhand

    "Its not just silly, its unpatriotic."

    I guess the whole revolutionary war was unpatriotic seeing as how we seceeded from the British.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:11 a.m.

    Hurleyscope @ 9;50 am hit the nail right on the head. Listen to what he is saying and not the race baiting mass media. I would've wanted to seceed even if Romney won. The real reason for secession is the TSA,NDAA,taxation,war,patriot act,war on drugs, and globalism.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:12 a.m.

    @hurleyscope -- ???? Wow, this is the fringiest fringe comment I've seen yet. Just where are these "amerikan" troops patrolling our neighborhoods? You know the whole executive order thing is a hoax, right? You've got to stop believing these emails you're getting my friend.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:14 a.m.

    Signing a Secession is not a simple "protest" or "political statement".

    It is just like walking into your boss and handling him/her your letter of resignation.

    You better be willing stand behind those words - because you've signed an official Federal document.

    And like be willing to defend it with YOUR own blood if necessary.

    BTW - I've sworn the oath to defend this nnation against ALL enemies, foreign and domestic.
    I have - are you?

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:14 a.m.

    Midvalean

    "yeah, let them protest. Nothing will come of this, other than putting your name on a list for the NSA/CIA to look at. HEre is a list of potential domestic terrorists is what they will see. Thank your local representative that gave powers for the patriot act when this happens."

    This is why secession makes even more sense. If people are treated as terrorist for just sigining a petition and excercising their first amendment right, we are no longer a free country.

  • Anti Bush-Obama Washington, DC
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:32 a.m.

    But then I guess the first amendment is only applicable when it doesn't hurt anybody's feelings. If you don't like something, don't sign it, if you don't like what somebody is talking about, don't listen to it. Petitions are totally legal. Any retaliation aginst someone excercising their freedom of speech is what real treason is.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:54 a.m.

    When the Founding Fathers signed the Declaration of Independacne and sent it to King George - it not a simple "protest" or "political statement".

    Meanwhile - All I can figure is that modern Conservatives want another blood bath, loose, and expect the federal Government to once again come in and give them "free stuff" in Government re-Construction aid after the war.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 11:07 a.m.

    @dwayne -- No, I disagree, it is unpatriotic. When someone says they want to break away from the United States of America because they disagree with the result of an election, I don't know how you can call it anything but anti-American. Signing such a petition is protected by the First Amendment, but that doesn't make it right. The patriotic thing to do is to try to win the next election, or better yet, try to influence policy now -- i.e. follow the Constitution you all claim to revere. Saying you want to break up the union is, by any definition, unpatriotic (i.e. against the United States of America -- the country we pledge allegiance to.) For people who claimed that anyone who didn't support the Iraq War was unpatriotic, you all sure change the definition of patriotism to suit your fancy, don't you?

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Nov. 19, 2012 11:11 a.m.

    I’ve been unhappy with the outcome of elections as often as happy. But no election results ever undercut my commitment to our system government, imperfect as it may be at times. Those trying to convince themselves that secession is what’s called for don’t know what an arbitrary government really is. People who lived in Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, or other oppressive governments did know and would given all to live under a government like ours.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 19, 2012 11:11 a.m.

    Dwayne,

    Patriotism is about our geographical location? Nothing about our constitution and the republic built upon it? That is not how I have understood our church leaders’ many statements on the constitution.

    Of course, in the days of Joseph Smith, it couldn’t have just been a geographical location, because so much of what we now call the US was not part of our nation then. No, a patriot is not simply about geography but about a type of government – or so thought the original patriots. Had they installed a king or a dictatorship would we call them patriots today (after all, it’s the same geography)? I don’t think so.

    Maybe you do not feel you are an American first. But I think most of us feel we are – at least that the interests of the nation are more important than our individual interests or those of our families. We can and do even sacrifice ourselves and our family members to war when necessary to defend the republic.

    Anti Bush-Obama,

    The first amendment is the right to speak. But there is no right to secession. We settled that issue long ago.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    If you knew your US History, you'd realize that there is one State that reserved the right to seceed from the Union when they joined. That State happens to be Texas. The way to assure that they will stay in the Union is to do two things:
    1) Let them know that if they do indeed leave, all US Property must be returned to the United States within 6 months, and
    2) Tell them that keeping a balance of 50 States means they will be replaced by Puerto Rico.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 12:03 p.m.

    The irony of the responses is quite funny. The liberals in years past have complained that they were called unpatriotic if they didn't support wars, Bush's tax cuts, or the Patiot Act. Now, when some people have declared that they want to seceed, it is the liberals who are yelling and calling them unpatriotic.

    Tell us liberals, if you hated being called unpatriotic because of your disagreements with Bush's policies, why is it ok for you to call these people unpatriotic because of their disagreements with Obama? That sure looks a lot like massive hypocrisy from my point of view. You claim to be the party of "live and let live", yet you go out of your way to mock and scorn these people.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Nov. 19, 2012 12:05 p.m.

    Dwayne,

    Then perhaps the views of Washington might sway you (from his Farewell Address to which Hamilton and Madison also contributed – a pretty good set of patriots):

    Part 1

    “The unity of government which constitutes you one people is also now dear to you. It is justly so, for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquility at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very liberty which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national union to your collective and individual happiness; “

  • Semi-Strong Louisville, KY
    Nov. 19, 2012 12:07 p.m.

    Part 2

    “that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.

    For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations.”

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 12:15 p.m.

    these secession petitions are nothing more and nothing less than a statement by a very angry, disillusioned and frustrated people. Of course we aren't going to allow secession however these petitions represent a mood of millions in the country stating that they are sick and tired of being drug down by the lazy, non-producers who don't work and don't want to work because they have a permanent welfare check from Uncle Sam. People simply would rather split away than have to watch their country disintegrate as Greece and other socialist countries have and all due to the boat anchor of the Obama voting block - the non tax payers, non producers and basically lazy leeches that comprise the bulk of the Democrat base. This is NOT a race issue - this is an issue where more than 50% of this country have sunk into being a HUGE drag on the rest of working and tax paying Americans and we are SICK of carrying these people. We have an obligation to take care of those that can't take care of themselves - no question but that isn't the issue here.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 12:31 p.m.

    RedShirt
    USS Enterprise, UT

    Tell us liberals, if you hated being called unpatriotic because of your disagreements with Bush's policies, why is it ok for you to call these people unpatriotic because of their disagreements with Obama?

    =============

    The difference RedShirt?
    Seriously -- OK --

    We NEVER signed petions of Secession,
    We respected the Constitution and sat down, shut-up and accepted the lame fact that GW Bush LOST the popular vote, but won the Electoral by a few hanging chads in Florida.
    We never tried to Ammend the Consitition after not getting our way,
    We protested the Wars, but NEVER started any.
    We may have disagree with Pres. Cheney and his little buddy, but we NEVER played Amnerican Obstuctionist during the Bush years.

    Win or Loose,
    Rain or Shine,
    Only goes to show who the REAL Patriots to America have been all along.

    I lost - I'm taking my marbles and going home.
    Playground hypocrites you might say.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 12:53 p.m.

    To "LDS Liberal" so basically, you are saying that it is ok to be a hypocrite because the seccesionists do not agree with you.

    What do you mean liberals never tried to Ammend teh constitution? It was liberals who gave us the Prohibition ammendments.

    Liberals never accepted Bush wining in 2000, hence the many articles and complaints about Bush stealing the election through a biased Supreme court.

    Liberals started the war in Egypt, people like Soros fueled the fires that lead to the uprisings. You also forget that Obama spent millions of dollars on US aircraft to fly over Libya, and is sending arms to Syria. Then there is Clinton's Balkan military action.

    Democrats intentionally obstructed Bush. See the Washington Post article "Democrats Are United in Plans To Block Top Bush Initiatives".

    I am glad to see that you admit to being a hypocrite, that is the most truthful thing you have stated today.

  • Wonder Provo, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 1:04 p.m.

    Like I said before, these people are free to say what they want. I believe in the First Amendment. But don't pretend to me that the signers of these petitions are patriotic Americans. They are not. (Yeah, it is funny that now "liberals" are saying that people are unpatriotic. Thing is, advocating the dissolution of the country actually IS unpatriotic. I don't think that everyone who disagrees with me about policy or the role of government is unpatriotic. I do think that threatening a civil war is unpatriotic.)

  • boxerdog915 Clearfield, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 2:27 p.m.

    @RanchHand

    "Its not just silly, its unpatriotic."

    So, are you saying our founding fathers were unpatriotic when they petitioned to secede from Britain to create this nation?? Or more currently Scotland wanting to secede from Britain??

    The Declaration of Independence clearly states, "Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government,"

    These petitions are a statement more than anything else, stating they are unsatisfied with our current government and path it’s on and to me, there is nothing more patriotic. They are legally petitioning the government, which they have every right to do, so now that’s unpatriotic as well?

    I’m apathetic about it but at least they are being peaceful, unlike Occupy Wall Street protesters, which cost cities millions of dollars in resources and damages. This is peaceful and it’s picking up momentum, which is kind of hard to ignore. I am curious to see how it pans out.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 2:32 p.m.

    Red Shirt -- you have forgotten, again, that it was LIBERALS who rebelled against English rule. It was LIBERALS who wrote the Declaration of Independence. It was LIBERALS who wrote the Constitution.

    Going back farther into history, Martin Luther was a LIBERAL who, by rebelling against the established church, paved the way for foundation of the LDS faith.

    It was Galileo who was LIBERAL enough to defy those who believed the earth was the center of the universe.

    It was a LIBERAL Abraham Lincoln who pushed the 13th Amendment through.

    It was probably even a LIBERAL caveman who brewed up enough courage to try to start using fire.

    So you see, without all those pesky LIBERALS, we'd still be living in the stone age, eating raw meat, and singing God Save the Queen.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 19, 2012 2:36 p.m.

    Its only "patriotic" if you agree with liberals! All others are unpatriotic.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 19, 2012 2:36 p.m.

    After quoting Jefferson, one poster wrote...

    "We arent Americans first. That kind of attitude is fascism. We are individuals first, families next and last of all we are Americans."

    Wow! Can you imagine had our founding fathers had this "whats in it for me" attitude when they put their very lives on the line trying to do something that was a people as a whole - not just silly self interest. Can you imagine what those young men buried in foreign lands protecting not only American rights, but the dignity of oppressed people around the world would think of a statement like this. Image had the pioneers, who often buried their tired, old, weak, and children along lonely paths crossing the plains had this same attitude.

    We now have generations who think the world evolved around them - that doing things for the greater good, for country, for faith, for doing just what is right - is subservient to their own wishes and needs. These are they who think sacrificing for neighbor, country or faith is a sign of weakness, and unconstitutional.

    It is these attitudes that make me fear for future generations.... not some political hyped up rhetoric.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 2:41 p.m.

    I wish they would succeed. We will give them Mississippi. They can take their share of the debt. The US can add Puerto Rico as the 50th state.
    Please angry racists, succeed. Leave the Union. We'll be much better off.

  • Mountanman Hayden, ID
    Nov. 19, 2012 3:01 p.m.

    Earnest T. Bass; Racist? Really? What a ridiculous accusation! And by the way, no you won't be better off. Who do you think is paying the majority of taxes? You 47% aren't paying any federal income taxes!

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 3:23 p.m.

    To "one old man" the people you mention were classical liberals, which are not to be confused with todays modern liberals.

    Those people that were liberals for their day would be called conservatives today.

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 3:30 p.m.

    Red, I challenge you to PROVE that there really is a difference between what you call "classic" liberals and those of us today.

  • SG in SLC Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 3:40 p.m.

    Hurleyscope, Anti Bush-Obama, and dwayne (as well as some others who have posted here) really need to read "The Man Without A Country" by Edward Everett Hale, then think long and hard about the consequences of their advocacy of abandoning the United States of America through secession.

  • boxerdog915 Clearfield, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 3:48 p.m.

    Ernest T. Bass

    "Please angry racists..."

    I would love for you to explain how being unsatisfied with the government is racist? Why is it that if people are critical of the government, they are now racist?? This makes no sense in my head for racism means there is hatred based on race, not the hatred of one’s government!!

    So please, enlighten me...

  • 10CC Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 3:51 p.m.

    Many of the new secessionists are tea partiers who are disillusioned with their movement's attempt to join forces with the GOP.

    Many of these people are just angry. Angry that minorities are getting more clout, angry that Obama was re-elected, angry that they had to submit to Romney's hard turn to the left, and all the money spent on getting rid of Obama was for naught.

    I say we grant them some islands in the Aleutian chain, and let Sarah Palin be their queen. Who knows, maybe they'll want to name their new nation after freedom or liberty, maybe they'll call it "Liberia", and when they find out the next morning there's already a nation with that name, they can form an armada to sail to Africa and defeat the imposters, fair and square.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 4:04 p.m.

    4th and final comment and I'm done ---

    Satan and his followers were not cast out for their "Liberal" "Socialist" plan.

    They were cast out for REBELLION.

    i.e, Sour Grapes.

  • RedShirt USS Enterprise, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 4:17 p.m.

    To "one old man" here goes:

    According to "What Is Classical Liberalism?" at NCPA, "The Rise, Decline, and Reemergence of Classical Liberalism" at Belmont University, and the definition of Liberal in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy classical liberalism is often associated with extreme forms of libertarianism. Libertarians are the opposite of modern liberals.

    Again from Stanford (and others), we learn that the New (or modern) liberalism is a government controlled system. Sources, other than Stanford, explain how liberalism depends on the government to right all wrong and depends on it to create a mixed economy (socialism and capitalism).

    To "LDS Liberal" yes Satan was cast out because of Rebellion, but look at the plan that he was proposing to replace God's plan. Under Socialism, not one person will fail and all will be saved. That is the exact same thing that Satan proposed. God rejected socialism as an alternate to his plan, yet you and your ilk want it.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 19, 2012 4:59 p.m.

    "Under Socialism, not one person will fail and all will be saved. That is the exact same thing that Satan proposed. God rejected socialism as an alternate to his plan, yet you and your ilk want it."

    Really? No one will fail? Good to know. Must send a memo to all those failing countries around the world that are socialist that they have no need to fear - there are no poor or needy among them.

    Satan's plan was to force everyone to do the right thing. There was to be no free agency, no options to choose right or wrong. It didn't specify equality of opportunity or anything of the like... I would love to see the scriptures your are referring to that claim that was a goal of his plan.

    On the other hand, it just isn't that hard to find scriptures that talk about people coming together so that "there was not poor among them".... or that talk about those that loose their lives in service of others, gain eternal life.

    Some of us actually believe that "we the people" have a responsibility to one another, and to society as a whole.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 5:31 p.m.

    Ernest T. Bass---

    Question: have you ever lived in Mississippi? What if they said "We'll give them Utah?" Why are you ragging on them? Yes, I have lived in that State in three different cities. Jackson looked a lot like Salt Lake City at the time. And I know some great people who call Mississippi home.

    Read my above post to see who can legally seceed from the Union and you won't have to be making such senseless statements about which property to so willingly cut loose.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 6:12 p.m.

    re:Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest, it is the "producers" that want to leave and not the other way around. Get it?? The producers are tired of carrying the 50% of takers that don't work and don't want to work.. oh and don't pay any taxes either but want the producers to pay more so they can continue to do even less. Remember the woman from Cleveland screaming "I got my Obama phone"?? Yes this is the poster child of what we want to leave behind - or lop it off - what ever you want to call it. The Obama base of welfare rabble can go ahead and try their socialism and we will stick with capitalism and our constitution and then after 10 years we will see who is sinking in the mud and who is booming. Any guesses? Hint: take a long hard look at Greece!

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 6:24 p.m.

    re:LDS Liberal

    Which most closely mirrors what we as Latter Day Saints believe....

    A. Hard Work - ambition - paying your own way - helping those who CAN'T help themselves and the words of JFK "ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country"

    B. No work - no paying taxes - no ambition - living off entitlements - and the words of Barack Obama "ask not what you can do for your country but what your government and your neighbor will give to you for free!!".

    Hint: the word deseret or "honey bee" should help you

  • Hank Pym SLC, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 10:31 p.m.

    to RedShirt Nov. 19

    How many times must you be corrected? Classical liberals then are Libertarians now. T Jefferson was a classical liberal.

    As Larry Elder once said, "The difference between Libertarians & the GOP is wide; between Dems & Libertarians is massive."

  • Owen Heber City, UT
    Nov. 19, 2012 11:55 p.m.

    Lds lib. I enjoy reading your short, pithy comments but the word, which you've appropriately used, but misspelled, several times the last few weeks, is lose, not loose.

  • John C. C. Payson, UT
    Nov. 20, 2012 8:08 a.m.

    I suppose most of the signatories consider themselves patriots, and some them of may even support or be members of militias. That's scary.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Nov. 20, 2012 9:10 a.m.

    Patriot.... very nice post there.... but the problem is no one ... repeat... no one is promoting option B.. Obama has never once said, implied, or made any reference to any of the things you suppose he has pushed forward.

    Lets be perfectly clear here - we, as a society, country, business owners, people who pay for insurance were already paying the bill for the uninsured. These cost were being passed on by the medical delivery system as a built in cost to them providing the services they provide. There was no magic well of money paying for these services - that if you will recall - were mandated in legislation Ronald Reagan promoted in the 80's. Everyone in this country already had the right to medical care - al be it through the emergency room door which is the least effective way of delivering services.

    What Romneycare and ObamaCare did was to acknowledge those cost, and force a mechanism that employers who didn't want to provide basic health insurance would be compelled to do so - or the states would have to provide a way for individuals to BUY there own. Call it Socialism - but it was acknowledgement of what was already going on.

  • Mark B Eureka, CA
    Nov. 20, 2012 9:21 a.m.

    If DN thinks secession is such a silly thing, why did it give coverage for the idea just last week, accompanied by a picture of flag-carrying Boy Scouts? "600,000 sign petitions", or something close to that. I guess DN want it both ways.

  • cjb Bountiful, UT
    Nov. 20, 2012 10:48 a.m.

    Utah didn't bend over backwards for statehood just so a bunch of yahoo's could throw it all away.

  • Tenther Orem, UT
    Nov. 20, 2012 11:33 a.m.

    Secession is not really the issue; having to abide unconstitutional assaults upon our freedom is! But we DO have a remedy much better than feeble threats of secession: NULLIFICATION! This is our right as a State and as a Community to declare, unilaterally, that we believe a law or statute put out by the Feds, will NOT be recognized nor enforced within our boundaries. This is our right under the 10th amendment to the Constitution. And TPTB (the feds and their backers) are truly and rightfully concerned about it.
    Visit http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/ for a good overview of how Nullification works. We have already traveled down this path as a State in some areas. Many other states are realizing their powers under this concept. Visit the TAC often and join in this movement to recover our rights! http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/

  • Res Novae Ashburn, VA
    Nov. 20, 2012 6:16 p.m.

    Take it from a proud son of Virginia and descendant of Confederate soldiers -- secession is a non-starter. This issue was decisively decided in 1865.

    You lose an election and the first thing that crosses your minds is secession from the Union? You think it's patriotism not to seek compromise with people who disagree with you? You think that the Founding Fathers aren't rolling in their graves when you mine them for quotes to support positions they *never* would have agreed with?

    Don't wrap yourself in my American flag in your quest for self-aggrandizing martyrdom. I take my oath to protect and defend the Constitution from its enemies --foreign and domestic-- very seriously.

  • dwaynerichards Provo, UT
    Nov. 20, 2012 10:24 p.m.

    one old man,

    "Red, I challenge you to PROVE that there really is a difference between what you call "classic" liberals and those of us today."

    There is a huge difference between a classical liberal and progressive liberals of today. A classical liberal believed in individualism, liberty and limited government.

    Jefferson who is well understood to be the direct founder of the Democratic Party of today has migrated so far from his philosophy that it's unrecognizable as Jeffersonian. It might upset liberals of today but our founding fathers weren't liberals or conservatives in this modern sense but even if you don't want to accept Tom Jefferson as the archetypal classical liberal you have to accept Locke was since it's his philosophy our founding fathers relied upon when they revolted against Great Britain. It is that philosophy that is so repugnant to liberals today who find more in common with Rousseau and other totalitarians who feel a greater will of society prevails over the individual. The only substantial philosophy that modern liberals come close to sharing with classical liberals is foreign policy but unlike classical liberals who emphasized economic relations liberals of today emphasize government relations

  • teleste Austin, TX
    Nov. 20, 2012 10:33 p.m.

    I don't agree with this latest secessionist movement. However, I do take issue with some of the comments here.

    To all those demeaning the secessionists:

    What y'all are saying has been said before. When voting against secession just prior to the Civil War, one of Texas' own state delegates summed it up quite nicely.

    "When the rabble hiss, well may patriots tremble."
    James Webb Throckmorton, 1861

    Nevertheless, Throckmorton rose up and fought for Texas and the CSA.

    Why did he do that?

    Because... after all the hissing and rabbling... when all is said and done...

    “Secession is an American principle."
    -Ron Paul, 2009

    Res Novae says:
    "You think that the Founding Fathers aren't rolling in their graves when you mine them for quotes to support positions they *never* would have agreed with?"

    I would like to point out that the very Founding Fathers you mention authored and signed a document called "The Declaration of Independence." FYI, that document is a big ole chunk of secession. Could it perhaps be YOU who is trying to dictate what the Founding Fathers believed more than the others? For me, their signatures speak for themselves.

  • Res Novae Ashburn, VA
    Nov. 21, 2012 4:13 a.m.

    Teleste, context is everything. The men who signed the Declaration of Independence were His Majesties subjects without the full rights of citizenship that their cousins in Britain held. The political entities they lived in were 13 distant colonies subject to the Crown's royal charters, not in Great Britain itself. That's hardly parallel to the conditions in this country today, where secessionists have full rights of citizenship and live states that are clearly part of the "mother country" of the United States of America.

    The Founding Fathers asserted their natural political rights. Having inherited rights that the Founding Fathers sacrificed for them, secessionists are simply quitters throwing a temper tantrum because they lost an election.

    I don't think I am trying to dictate anything, the Founding Fathers speak for themselves without self-proclaimed "patriots" ripping their words out of context to support their partisan positions today. I stand by my statement above.

  • IJ Hyrum, Ut
    Nov. 21, 2012 11:23 a.m.

    "If we do in fact love the constitution, then we must stay within its bounds in order to preserve. There is no other avenue."

    If we do in fact love the constitution, then maybe the only way is secussion. That's how the founding fathers saw it. That's why we have a constitution. That's why we have a United States of America.

    "But when a long train of Abuses and Usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object, evinces a Design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their Right, it is their Duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future Security."

    POTUS is doing all he can to destroy the constitution and all it guarantees We the People. Perhaps the secussionists (of which I am not) see things as the founding father did and can rationalize no other way. If POTUS continues the path he is treading, it might become necessary to invoke the D of I.

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    While I think the secession movements are silly and ultimately fruitless, the fact that some of them are somewhat large (like Texas where one third of those polled wanted to leave the union) is also troubling. Laughing at this discontent and disconnect is done at our own peril...

  • Howard Beal Provo, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 11:50 a.m.

    There is a reference after the quote I throw up here in the Declaration that "Prudence" or caution should be used in throwing off government for such "light and transient causes. But the quote before this says it all. And ultimately whether any state is in the mother country or whether we are "citizens" as hurleyscope implied does not take away per se from this charge as written by Jefferson which goes:

    "That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness...

    In fact Jefferson says later in the Declaration it not only our right to throw off such government but it is our DUTY (emphasis mine).

    Now again, I think most people are overreacting. The founding fathers did everything imaginable to work within the system for change before the Declaration. Those honest opposers I feel must do the same. We are not at the point where secession is any solution.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Nov. 21, 2012 4:25 p.m.

    Just day dreaming here for a minute but wouldn't it be cool if Texas and the rest of the capitalist / constitutional / freedom believing states could actually leave New York and the rest of the Marxist / Socialist states. Let Barack lead his socialist rabble and then drain the swamp and start fresh with the rest. No Barack Obama or Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi or Maxine Waters .... no Hollywood communists and no more state controlled media. I guarantee it wouldn't take long before the Wallstreet companies moved to Houston along with every other business that wanted to actually stay in business!! Barack could give out free Obama phones every Christmas - I mean winter Holiday (sorry) - until the money ran out.

  • Upson Downs Sandy, UT
    Nov. 23, 2012 7:46 p.m.

    Interesting that so many call this a silly initiative. Although I never signed one of the petitions and feel it is probably a fruitless show of displeasure with the outcome of the elections, I sympathize with those doing the signing. As this country is controlled more and more by "redistribution of wealth Democrats" this silly idea is going to take hold like a wildfire and the "silliness" of working people's displeasure will find it's way to the streets. Eventhough I am getting along in years, I would be out there causing as much anarchy as I could to bring such a freeloading Government down. So go ahead and keep thinking the idea is silliness.