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Robert Bennett: Bennett: Religion and politics in Europe vs. America

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  • Mormonmeuk London, 00
    Oct. 29, 2012 4:32 a.m.

    "Europeans can't vote" Is this a miss print? Or just a blatant lie?
    Every country in Europe is a democracy. Europeans all vote! (The ones that can be bothered to anyway)
    Mormonism is considered a bit of a Joke by the vast majority of free thinking Europeans, but apart from that Mitt Romney did come to London and make a complete fool of himself.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 5:10 a.m.

    Re: "I suspect that American presidents will continue to embrace religion and Europeans will continue to be amazed by that."

    And I suspect that fact explains a lot of Europe's troubles.

  • DVD Taylorsville, 00
    Oct. 29, 2012 8:09 a.m.

    A Romney presidency would be an eye-opener in the field of religion. But to be fair, President Obama and family are also church-goers, but because it's not an 'unusual' religion, it isn't given the same attention as Governor Romney's. An eye-opener for many as well may be the LDS church's welfare program as media attention may get placed on that.

  • Mike in Cedar City Cedar City, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 8:28 a.m.

    Oh, European support for OBama must be hatred of religion, especially Moromonism. I just can't be due to the fact that President Obama has rebuilt America's prestige around the world with a more inclusivve foreign policy. It must be because Europeans are less religious and they just can't understand a "righteous" man like Romney. It can't be because they see that Obama's social policies are more forward leaning and just, and that Romney would eliminate universal healthcare not to mention turning wall street loose to return to the policies that allowed them to practically destroy the economy's in this country and around the world.

    And, it could not be that they see Obama as a preace maker, and Romney as a potential war monger. No, its all about regligious bigotry, nothing more.

  • louie Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:00 a.m.

    Obama is still very popular in Europe. A republican with whatever credentials would have an uphill battle and surely Mr. Bennett would knows that.

  • Owl Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:13 a.m.

    Europeans can accept certain behavior (mistresses and other indiscretions) as private and not indicative of a person's competence, but not religion. Both are a measure of character and religious values are no less legitimate than secular vales. You also forgot the mention that Iran and Venezuela both prefer Obama.

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:24 a.m.

    Europeans tend to care more for and about one another as people, rather than embracing the 'every man for himself' attitude. Plus, they recognise religion for what it is, and seem to do a better job trying to keep it out of politics.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:24 a.m.

    Perhaps it's because the Europeans don't want to get sucked into yet another Middle Eastern War.

  • ElJefeOcho STAFFORD, VA
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:43 a.m.

    I am not surprised about the continue European love affair with Obama...

    I was a missionary in England when Jimmy Carter was president. Inflation was rampant in the U.S.; Americans from the U.S. Embassy in Iran were being held hostage; intrest rates were near 20%; gasoline prices had doubled and Carter gave a speech from the White House of a great maliase that had overtaken our nation. And what did the English think of Carter? I heard many times that he was "the greatest president ever."

    And as for religion, in northern England where I was, a former Methodist minister who had converted to Islam told me that about 3% of the population there goes to church on Sunday (churches such as the Catholics, Methodists and Church of England). I attended a few other faiths there and thought it sad that they only people attending were in their 60s. Further south in our mission, church attendance was slightly better... so it's no surprise that Europeans view religion with such disdain...

  • one old man Ogden, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:46 a.m.

    Maybe the Europeans are smart enough to recognize flips and flops.

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:09 a.m.

    These good folks in Europe need to brace themselves for disappointment. It isn't looking real rosy for Obama right now.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:33 a.m.

    Bennett gives too much weight to religion as a factor in Europe's preference to Obama over Romney. Bush alienated Europe from the U.S. when Bush took to task those allies who refused to sign on for military intervention against Iraq over WMDs which turned out to be a hollow justification. Telling them "you're either for us or you're against us" turned off France and Germany who had provided more cooperation than our other allies to root out al Queda cells after 911. After the Bush era of unilateralism, the Obama Presidency came in like a breath of fresh air.

  • wrz Ogden, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:38 a.m.

    @Mike in Cedar City:

    "I just can't be due to the fact that President Obama has rebuilt America's prestige around the world..."

    Apologizing is not rebuilding.

    As Romney stated in a debate, America doesn't dictate to foreign countries... it rids dictators in foreign countries.

    "It must be because Europeans are less religious and they just can't understand a 'righteous' man like Romney."

    No, it's because the Catholic Church has had Europe in its grips for centuries. But they need to pay attention as Muslims move in enmass to take control.

    "... not to mention turning wall street loose to return to the policies that allowed them to practically destroy the economy's in this country and around the world."

    It was the government loosening real estate mortgage requirements allowing for the proliferation of sub-prime mortgages to people who couldn't pay that almost destroyed our economy.

  • The Deuce Livermore, CA
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:39 a.m.

    My question to everyone is why would you take the endorsement of Europe? Those countries do not have a leg to stand on. While my vote is still undecided, I will admit that this story has me leaning more towards Romney.

  • red state pride Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:39 a.m.

    Mr Bennett- you should have clarified that Western Europe (the sclerotic, one foot in the abyss side) supports Barack Obama while the relatively vibrant Eastern Europe supports Mitt Romney

  • Alfred Ogden, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:40 a.m.

    @one old man:

    "Maybe the Europeans are smart enough to recognize flips and flops."

    Europeans seem to love the major flip-flopper, the one and only Barack Husein Obama. Mmmm, mmm, mm.

  • Ironhide Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 11:33 a.m.

    Europe is a mess. You want heavy social programs and medicine, take a one way flight. Europe has historic and beautiful places to visit. Some, and only some countries actually make their primary and secondary educators have graduate degrees. That's about all the value to be desired in Europe. Oh, good food too. I love how the panelist that was slinging garbage about Mormonism apologized only after he realized a Mormon was in the room. Classy. Lots of character. Why do so many want to emulate Europe? Talk about a sinking ship. I know the American boat is taking on water as well, but let's not pull the plug by adopting a healthcare plan like Canada has had for 50 years, that they are now undoing because it costs so much. And Mike in CC, that's a real rose colored view of your man BO, but they really don't place much value in religion because of what took place under pretense of religion for so many centuries. You're exactly right, they like BO because he's not a threat. He's a pushover and they know it. China and Russia are perfect evidence of that.

  • WHAT NOW? Saint George, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    Ah, the one panelist gambit...

    Bob.

    One panelist does not make a trend...

    Neither does a smattering of like minded conference go'ers.

    Thank you.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Oct. 29, 2012 11:44 a.m.

    I served a mission in Germany during the mid 70s. The constant discussion with the Germans was always socialistic leaning. They thought, (and still do), that religion is purely an institution and state-controlled, that should not be looked upon favorably at all. Furthermore, it is taught in the classroom, like we are beginning to see in our public schools, especially college, that religion is a man-made crutch, etc, etc. Karl Marx never died in Europe. Obama's Nobel was rushed to him, after just 6 weeks as POTUS. This was quite laughable, but not surprising to me.

  • Mike in Cedar City Cedar City, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 12:02 p.m.

    WRZ in Ogden. Obama oppologizing for America is one of Romney's biggest lies. You might consider doing a little independant fact checking. If you do you will find that Romney and his campaign have told a whole bunch of "whoppers" -- this was one of their first.

    Other Romney lies: "The economy is worse" It's actually noticeably better. "Obama has doubled the deficit" Actually it's a little lower. I could cite at least 18 more misrepresentations or outright lies. But there is not enough time nor word space available in this comment block. Spend a little more time doing your own analysis and a little less time on Fox News is my advice to you.

  • UT Brit London, England
    Oct. 29, 2012 12:27 p.m.

    Lets clear up a few things first. Europe is a collection of countries, each one with vastly different cultures and differences. Discussing Europe as one group makes about as much sense as someone describing North and South America as one single group. You cannot give a blanket "Europe" explanation.
    Romney came over to the UK and made a complete fool of himself. He completely misunderstood our culture, we are very self depreciating ourselves but heaven help the person that criticizes us from the outside.
    We have lost close to 500 young men and women in Iraq and Afghanistan, 500 lives completely wasted. We have many, many more who have been maimed and injured. Romney seems to be thirsty for an Iran invasion, we are not......

    Also I dont think some Americans realise just how bad Bush was for foreign relations.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 12:48 p.m.

    Re: "Obama oppologizing [sic] for America is one of Romney's biggest lies."

    If telling the absolute, unvarnished truth about Obama's continuing apology tour is the biggest lie Mitt's detractors can think of, what does that say about them?

    It's an easily refuted fabrication to suggest the President doesn't apologize for America, or that his apology tour didn't happen -- apologies about Gitmo, both at home and in France, for the war on terror, to the Summit of the Americas, for the CIA doing its job, for US non-engagement with other American states, to the Turk parliament, and serial apologies to Europe and the Muslim world, most recently in Pakistan, as part of the Mohammad-film coverup.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 12:50 p.m.

    Where was Bob when Bush wore his Born-Again-Christian religion on his right-wing-arm-band?

    The Europeans dis-like Romney for the same reason they dis-liked Bush --
    and "religion" has nothing to do with it.
    [Unless bombing and starting "Holy Wars" or Crusades for oil in the name of religion is where this is leading...]

  • wrz Ogden, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 1:04 p.m.

    @Mike in Cedar City:

    "Obama oppologizing for America is one of Romney's biggest lies."

    I did some research... in the DNews, a very accurate source for truth. I guess Barack Hussein Obama's lies are classified as flip-flops... such as gay/straight marriages, closing Gitmo, etc.

    Barack Hussein Obama did state one truth, though... 'If I can't get this done in three years it will be a one term proposition.'

    "If you do you will find that Romney and his campaign have told a whole bunch of 'whoppers' -- this was one of their first."

    Tell us, what was the deep bow to a Saudi king all about? I thought Barack Hussein Obama gave up Islam years ago.

    "Other Romney lies: 'The economy is worse.'"

    Fact: There are less jobs now than when Barack Hussein Obama took over from Bush.

    "'Obama has doubled the deficit.' Actually it's a little lower."

    Yeah, but it took Barack Hussein Obama less than four years to do what it took Bush eight years to do (double the deficit). Also, Barack Hussein Obama raised the national debt more than all presidents since George Washington COMBINED.

  • Happy Valley Heretic Orem, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 1:16 p.m.

    procuradorfiscal said: "If telling the absolute, unvarnished truth about Obama's continuing apology tour is the biggest lie Mitt's detractors can think of, what does that say about them?"

    Can you produce a single quote instead of vagaries your radio say's are apologies,? Shouldn't be hard with all those instances you suggested, but I'm thinking you won't be able to produce any without a spinning explanation.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 29, 2012 1:21 p.m.

    Europe has evolved over time (the new Muslim population notwithstanding) into a relatively atheistic society. Mr. Bennett (indirectly implying that they have lost the Truth) thinks the reason for this is that they lacked a marketplace for religious ideas. Perhaps; but perhaps it is mostly because once people begin to stop believing things on insufficient evidence (and perhaps also that centuries of conflict have shown many of these beliefs to be mutually exclusive), they also begin to distrust people who still do.

  • LDS Liberal Farmington, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 1:45 p.m.

    As for this world-wide trend toward LESS religion....

    Let me point out the obvious ---

    Atheists and agnostics of the last 30 years or so have become the voice for Peace, Compromise, Tolerance, and Diversity.

    While it has been the ultra-religious [Christian, Jews, and Muslims] who are becoming the poster childs of War, No Compromise, and In-tolerence and less diversity....

    Now,
    Go figure.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 3:24 p.m.

    Or could it be that the European people in general are a little further along in the natural evolution of thought that gradually replaces the imaginary with reality.

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 3:32 p.m.

    Re: "Can you produce a single quote . . . ?"

    How about a half-dozen?

    Strasbourg, France, April 2009 -- "In America . . . there’s a failure to appreciate Europe’s leading role in the world . . . America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive . . . That's why I closed Guantanamo . . . And when you start sacrificing your values . . . you lose yourself."

    Summit of the Americas, April 2009 -- "I know that promises of partnership have gone unfulfilled . . . we have at times been disengaged, and at times we sought to dictate our terms."

    Cairo, June 2009 -- "colonialism . . . denied rights and opportunities to many Muslims . . . countries were too often treated . . . without regard to their own aspirations."

    G-20 Summit, London, April 2009 -- "I would like to think that with my election . . . you're starting to see some restoration of America's standing in the world."

    National Archives, May 2009 -- "Unfortunately . . . our government made a series of hasty decisions . . . . In other words, we went off course.

    Al Arabiya, Jan 2009 -- "We sometimes make mistakes. We have not been perfect."

  • procuradorfiscal Tooele, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 4:03 p.m.

    Re: "Atheists and agnostics of the last 30 years or so have become the voice for Peace, Compromise, Tolerance, and Diversity."

    You mean atheists like Dawkins, Hitchens, and Maher?

    Dawkins -- ". . . Romney is a massively gullible fool" and "Revealed faith is not harmless nonsense, it can be lethally dangerous nonsense."

    Hitchens -- ". . . all religious belief is sinister and infantile."

    Maher -- "Maher is highly critical of religion, and views it as highly destructive."

    And what about today's atheistic governments -- Cuba, North Korea, Vietnam, and China?

    Peace? Compromise? Tolerance? Diversity?

    And, that's not even mentioning the hundreds of millions that were tortured, maimed, killed, and robbed of freedom by atheist regimes in the 20th century.

    Liberals can be so gullible.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 4:13 p.m.

    Europe is socialist - Obama is a socialist. Am I missing something here? Like minds tend to stick together and this is nothing more than a socialist love fest. Remember the Nobel Peace Prize going to Obama - this ridiculous and meaningless prize awarded to the man in the empty suit who represented the Marxist / Socialist ideology? America has always stood far apart from socialist Europe ... until Obama. Hopefully in 7 days America will return to being America once again and Obama can return to working with his buddy Bill Ayers again on some anti-American shadow scheme.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 6:18 p.m.

    Why is Socialism bad? Why are people who advocate Socialism bad?

  • KJB1 Eugene, OR
    Oct. 29, 2012 6:38 p.m.

    Rifleman:

    "It isn't looking real rosy for Obama right now."

    Says who? Fox News? Rush Limbaugh? Right-wing blogs? The New York Times' 538 blog currently gives President Obama a 73% chance of being reelected and the Associated Press says that he's currently on track to win 271 electoral votes even if he loses the remaining swing states. That's not a bad position to be in a week before Election Day.

    And before you start going on about the "liberal media", they focus on national polls because it's easier and so they can sell their horse-race narrative (CNN even tried to claim that Obama being ahead by 4 points in Ohio in their own poll meant that it was tied there.) Look at the state-by-state polling and the Electoral College and you'll that Obama has a small but solid advantage. I really think a lot of people here at the DN are going to be surprised come next Tuesday night...

  • Rifleman Salt Lake City, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 8:17 p.m.

    Re: UT Brit London, England
    "Lets clear up a few things first."

    Yes, let's do. First the American Colonists sent the British home with their tails between their legs during the war of Independence, and then the Americans saved their bacon during WWII. We like the British. Most of them are decent folks.

    Re: KJB1 Eugene, OR
    "The New York Times' 538 blog currently gives President Obama a 73% chance of being reelected."

    Well then I must be mistaken. A 73% chance you say? They must know something the independent voters don't.

  • WestGranger West Valley City, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 8:26 p.m.

    The United States is the world's superpower and has by far the strongest economy for a reason.Much of Europe is failing and close to bankruptcy. Obama is someone that they can relate to a wildly irresponsible, socialist-like spender. Despite the Euro-phils may say; as they put Europe up on a pedestal, and at the same time denigrate the USA at every turn, the USA is a highly charitable society, one who spreads the world with a massive amount of humanitarian aid, and has sacrificed its sons and daughters to free millions from oppression and tyranny.

  • Mike in Cedar City Cedar City, Utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 8:27 p.m.

    WRZ in Ogden.... no hope for you. Really you ought to look at sources beyond Beck Hannity and Rush. And the DN is hardly unbiased. Google "Mitt Romney lies" and check out PolitiFact or some other fact checkers.

  • toosmartforyou Farmington, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 9:41 p.m.

    @ Mike in Cedar

    I seldom listen to Rush but the day after the third debate he had sound clips of Obama apologizing in France, Egypt, Germany and a couple of other middle-eastern contries. And then Obama says that such an accuzation is a "lie." I doubt after all his "shovel-ready" drivel and spin on the economy that he can recognize the truth. He said it but won't own it. Typical for him. Oh, so typical......

  • ronnie sandy, utah
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:07 p.m.

    Ironhide

    Don't look now but Canada is not changing their healthcare program. in fact there is no western country in the world that has changed after going to a form of universal healthcare. only the greedy "for profit" enterprises and/or their stooges insist that universal healthcare is bad for us and evil.

  • Mr. Bean Ogden, UT
    Oct. 29, 2012 10:15 p.m.

    @Ultra Bob:

    "Why is Socialism bad? Why are people who advocate Socialism bad?"

    Socialism is where the government owns and controls everything.

    Socialism curtails freedom, permitting only that which the government (i.e., a cadre of a few people in the top echelons) decides. Example: Obamacare. You buy insurance or you pay a fine. And when you get old the government will decide (via death panels) whether you live, die, or go home and take a pain pill (the pain pill idea was Obama's contribution). If the government can force the purchase of health insurance, it can for the purchase of anything.

    Socialism also kills creativity. Note how almost all new inventions originate in the US. Why's that? Because Americans are guaranteed maximum freedom to achieve and to reap the benefits of their achievements. Unfettered freedom is the hallmark of creativity. Socialist countries have neither freedom nor creativity in any significant quantities.

  • teleste Austin, TX
    Oct. 29, 2012 11:02 p.m.

    @Mormonmeuk

    Europeans can't vote in American elections. Read the article more closely before throwing around the "lies" accusation.

    Also, Romney might have looked a fool in London...but he did not look like a fool on stage during the debates. And it was Obama that looked like a fool bowing to the Saudis, Japanese, and high-fiving Hugo Chavez.

    I have *hope* there'll be *change* in this election and we (the American nation) won't keep moving *forward* at break-neck speed towards disaster.

  • UT Brit London, England
    Oct. 30, 2012 1:19 a.m.

    @Rifleman

    What on Earth has that got to do about my comments? I was explaining how you cannot put all the views of each country in Europe under a nice blanket label. Romney did make a fool of himself over here, the left and right wing press both tore him to pieces. He made things difficult for LDS over here because of that. I had to explain that all of the US mormons are not like that.

  • Salsa Libre Provo, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 1:54 a.m.

    Does this mean at Martians love Romney while Venusians love Obama? The polls appear to bear this generalization out.

  • lyschoening Copenhagen, Denmark, 00
    Oct. 30, 2012 2:40 a.m.

    Europeans don't look at this election on faith issues, and even if we were to do so our religious institutions and religious parties encourage a general safety net to protect the weakest members of our society. We are generally happy with universal healthcare and could frankly not imagine living without it.

    Romney's policy of austerity is exactly what is failing in parts of Europe right now. While we are disappointed about our leaders' failure to bridge their differences, we don't understand why Americans would willingly commit to the same failed policies.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Oct. 30, 2012 6:57 a.m.

    " relatively vibrant Eastern Europe"

    This comment deserves a few chuckles. This person obviously has no clue what is going on in Europe. Ask a brit what they think about the flood of eastern europeans landing on their shores, I think you will get a much different view on just how vibrant eastern Europe is.

    As one who does business in Europe and deals with europeans daily, I think Mr. Bennett nailed this one. Europeans mistrust of Mormonism is mostly based on a lack of knowledge of the faith. Nothing overt. Nothing sinister. They just don't know.

    The other factor is that much of europeans are turn off by American NeoCon Exceptionalist attitudes. The idea promoted by even some posters here that the US a blessed place, where as the rest of the world holds a lessor status in Gods eye is frankly offensive to many - and it should be. Romney largely ran as a NeoCon in the primaries, and they are aware of that. Romney has since taken great strides to back away from those positions.

    But in being critical of England's Olympic preparations, Romney did not help his overseas favorability - with our allies.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Oct. 30, 2012 7:07 a.m.

    "It's an easily refuted fabrication to suggest the President doesn't apologize for America"

    This attitude blows me away. America isn't perfect. It never was, it never will be. It was wrong to support slavery. It was wrong in interning Japanese on camps in World War II, It was wrong in Iraq when American soldiers abused prisoners, it was wrong when it downed an Iranian passenger jet liner, it was wrong when it accidentally bombed the Chinese embassy in Serbia, it was wrong when us soldiers killed villagers including women and children in Afghanistan. It will continue to make mistakes in the future. And there is nothing wrong with America apologizing when it makes mistakes.

    Just as a good parent makes mistakes, like when the Prophet acknowledges he too needs to repent from time to time, there is nothing wrong with making mistakes. It is part of what makes us human.

    What is wrong is not admitting when you are wrong, not taking responsibility for errors, for thinking of oneself as being perfect and all else are wrong. As a nation, we are doomed if we let our own pride keep us from acknowledging our faults.

  • Red Headed Stranger Billy Bobs, TX
    Oct. 30, 2012 7:32 a.m.

    Mike in Cedar City

    "'Obama has doubled the deficit' Actually it's a little lower."

    In January 2009 the federal deficit was 10 trillion, today it is over 16 trillion. Bush averaged $500 billion a year in deficit spending, Obama just under $1.5 trillion.

    "'The economy is worse' It's actually noticeably better."

    In what sense? The unemployment rate in January 2009 was 7.6% and now it is 7.8% Of course the labor department under Obama lowered the workforce participation rate - if it were the same as under Bush then the unemployment rate would be over 10%. The ten percent number is probably the real figure as raises are real flat.

    I guess Wall Street is doing ok, but, didn't they donate huge amounts to the 2008 Obama campaign? Hmmmm....

    By the way, I didn't get those numbers from Fox news, I got them from the government itself. "It's actually noticeably better." is a prima facie false statement.

  • patriot Cedar Hills, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 7:59 a.m.

    re:Ultra Bob

    No offense Bob but this is exactly what scares me most about America today..the ignorance toward both Socialism and Communism. "If you don't learn from the past you are bound to repeat it" someone once said. Socialism - Marxism - Communism are all cut from the same ugly cloth. Communism IS also Socialism but with a bit harder and harsher shell. History is well documented with the horrors of Communism and the repression and murder this evil ideology has produced over hundreds of years from Russia to Europe. Russia and China are two of the biggest Communist empires but Europe is full of Socialist failures today such as Greece and Italy. Socialism has completed destroyed Greece - bankrupt and desperate and burning cars in the streets demanding promised entitlements that evaporated long ago. Socialism is the complete OPPOSITE of everything America is. America is all about individual ambition and the freedom to pursue your dream based on how hard you choose to work. No limitations. American capitalism has produced the strongest economy in the world history. Socialism is all about wealth redistribution - robbing from one and giving to another.

  • Tyler D Meridian, ID
    Oct. 30, 2012 9:12 a.m.

    I don't get all this "apology tour" stuff. Seems to me that after eight years of Bush's machismo, it made sense to explain to some of our friends around the world that we're not all a bunch of puffed up cowboy wannabes who think all the solutions to the world’s problems can be found in the plot of a Chuck Norris show. If a real man like Teddy Roosevelt were running today, the only way he would get the endorsement of ‘men’ like Rush, Beck and Hannity and survive the Republican primary season were if his motto was “walk arrogantly and carry a big assault weapon.”

  • Furry1993 Ogden, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 10:47 a.m.

    My guess is that they prefer Obama because he's a statesman, not a bloviator like Romney.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 11:32 a.m.

    Most Europeans supported Obama over McCain too. It's not just a Mormon thing.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    Now how is it that I read over a dozen comments and not one yet has noted what I thought conservatives would say... Europe is socialist. Obama's not socialist but liberalism is obviously closer to how Europeans run their nations than conservatism is. Issues like universal healthcare are considered basic human rights in Europe. Which party is closer to them on that? Which party cares more about the environment? Is less desirous for war? Believes in a strong social safety net? That's why Obama is more popular in Europe than Romney is.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 11:39 a.m.

    @procuradorfiscal
    "Strasbourg, France, April 2009 -- "In America . . . there’s a failure to appreciate Europe’s leading role in the world . . . America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive . . . That's why I closed Guantanamo . . . And when you start sacrificing your values . . . you lose yourself.""

    Yeah, and in your ...'s after the word derisive he made a statement about one of Europe's failings. He's urging everyone to improve themselves and there's nothing wrong with that. The fact that some Americans cannot seem willing to ever admit that hey we aren't perfect is exactly what one of the problems in this nation is, that we're arrogant and you prove Obama correct. There are Americans who are dismissive, even derisive. That's just a fact, but no, apparently you want our President to just pretend we're perfect. If people actually read the full speech it would be obvious that he was calling not just for the US to improve, but Europe too. That's not an apology, that's a call to action.

  • GK Willington Salt Lake City, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 7:56 p.m.

    @ patriot
    Cedar Hills, UT
    re:Ultra Bob

    No offense Bob but "this is exactly what scares me most about America today..the ignorance toward both Socialism and ommunism."

    Especially those who get their info from Beck, Hannity, etc...

    "Socialism - Marxism - Communism are all cut from the same ugly cloth." What about Fascism which is a cousin of the aforementioned?

    That IMO is the path America is headed down. Do some research on the Third Way FYI.

    "America is all about individual ambition and the freedom to pursue your dream based on how hard you choose to work. No limitations."

    Nice Speech Gordon Gekko.

    "Socialism is all about wealth redistribution - robbing from one and giving to another."

    What about the Federal Reserve (good indicator of Fascism IMO)? Taxes? Wall Street's Credit Default Swaps, Mortgage Backed securities, etc... TARP/bailouts, etc...?

  • Wixom Bountiful, UT
    Oct. 30, 2012 8:14 p.m.

    To Mike in Cedar: the Utah economy is noticeably better but much of the US is still languishing - be sure you are telling the whole story. The whole country will have a much better chance of recovering and regaining its strength and hope with positive leadership rather than continuing to be dragged downward by the current president. There are countries that want the US weakened. What side of the pond are you on?

  • Lightening Lad Austin , TX
    Oct. 30, 2012 9:20 p.m.

    You see the same thing all over America simply because the LDS Church has not been able to define itself, rather the message most get of of the crazy polygamist's groups, or people who are told what they should do in life without being able to decide for themselves.. It wasn't until the first debate that Mitt Romney was able to show himself to be a normal human being rather than the stiff right wing nutcase the Democrats had labeled him to be. I travel internationally and I bet I've been in the company of 100 or more groups wherein someone made a nasty comment about Mormons oblivious to the fact that there might be one or more in the group itself. In Europe they have tossed out the Biblical stories from the Old Testement as fables that cannot possibly be true, holding up science as truth. In the BBC religious forum listing questions and answers the LDS representative stated "we are not in conflict with science", if more Europeons knew that fact and that yes, it's OK to not believe in a Noah's Ark or an early earth they might feel differently.

  • Craig Clark Boulder, CO
    Oct. 31, 2012 11:14 a.m.

    America and Europe see religion differently because Old World Christianity was in recession as a New World Christianity was incubating. Americans were not as religious in the colonial period as our mythology has it. Colonists came here for a new life as religious wars were tearing Europe apart. In the period between the American Revolution and the Civil War, new Christian religious strains were taking root. Separation of church and state may not sound radical today but it was truly revolutionary two centuries ago.

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    Oct. 31, 2012 5:56 p.m.

    Those who forget history are bound to repeat it. The main reason many came here in the first place was that the State and the Church were bound together, and those who would not worship the in the State church were severely punished or killed. That nearly was repeated upon landing on these shores. It is coming close to being repeated now, with some who want to be President also wanting to use their religious sensibilities to tell the rest of us how we will live. And if it continues long enough, we will end up at the place history left us. And it is why many are not voting for a Republican for the first or second time.

  • kargirl Sacramento, CA
    Nov. 1, 2012 3:38 p.m.

    Some of this discussion reminds me of growing up LDS in Arlington, VA. We could still joke around about our "horns and tails" to start a discussion, laughing and rubbing our heads! Seriously, we were told so often of the importance of living our beliefs since we could likely be the only LDS person our friends knew, that is is with me today, even though my current state sports a surfeit of Mormons--and that is a nickname we also used proudly, since it's the only handle our friends knew us by. We learned to take the familiar first, help with explaining the unfamiliar. I imagine many people who have been accustomed to the same thing I grew up with would be transplanted in a country in Europe and find much the same thing. And probably feel much as they had all along. So for them, and me, it would be not so odd at all. It's all what you're accustomed to.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Nov. 1, 2012 4:11 p.m.

    @Lightning Lad
    "It wasn't until the first debate that Mitt Romney was able to show himself to be a normal human being rather than the stiff right wing nutcase the Democrats had labeled him to be."

    That's because Romney tossed away all the positions he took before that. Not my fault others don't do their homework and look up what he said the first 20 months of the campaign.