Although radiocarbon testing on the Shroud of Turin dates it to about the 13th
century, the Catholic Church still has taken no position on its authenticity,
meaning that the subject is still open.Now the Church dismisses the
"Jesus' wife" fragment as a fake when no forensic testing on it has
been done or even proposed. Striking difference, eh?
Whatever....I still believe He was married with children, regardless of what the Vatican tells us to beleive.[He was perfect
but was Baptized to set the example, Why not all the other Saccred Ordinances?
We believe His Father is Married, He said he's done all that
the Fathar's done, and We too should follow. I just want to
know why this is all being covered up?]
The Cahtolic Church has a considerable theological stake in the issue,
Protestantism not so much, Mormonism not at all. But for Catholocism's
celibacy doctrine, it's toxic. But there is reason to be suspicious of
purported artifacts purchased on a market, all the more so since the Jesus
ossuary hoax of a while back.
I tend to agree LDS Liberal with the setting an example part, except...if
he knew his mission would take away the from the time it takes to be a good
father to be a teacher to all mankind.(lots of time away from home on the
road.)...and that his life would be cut short leaving a widow and
fatherless children, ...and he would be putting their lives in danger?...then would he be setting the right example?Of course this is
just an opinion.
The Vatican has zero credibility even among Catholics. Harvard is pretty well
respected. It's not surprizing that the Vatican would hold onto a policy
they've held for centuries. I believe they just got around to admitting
they were wrong to have killed Galileo.After all : "The Earth is
firmly fixed; it shall not be moved." -Psalms 104:5
Re; LDS Liberal, We believe His Father is Married, He said he's done all
that the Fathar's done, and We too should follow. “Our Father
which art in Heaven with, The supreme being transcends space and time. The first
goes to pieces if you begin to apply the literal(Mormonism , exaltation) meaning
to it. How can a sexual animal really be our father? How can it be in the sky?
The *second falls into no such traps. C.S. Lewis.*J S, Lectures on
Faith, Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power.
(5:2.).*Brigham Young "The Lord fills the immensity of space. What
saith the Psalmist[139:7-10]? Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither
shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I
make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. (JOD v 1 p 49-50):
Maybe Harvard should be subjected to some Inquisition type persuasion. Even
Galileo changed his mind when threatened with being burned at the stake.
re: Craig Clark"But for Catholocism's celibacy doctrine,
it's toxic."Agreed.at 4601"Maybe Harvard should be subjected to some Inquisition type
persuasion."You are aware that the current Pope was Prefect of
the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith i.e. the office of the
Happy Valley HereticOrem, UTI tend to agree LDS Liberal with the
setting an example part, except...if he knew his mission would take away
the from the time it takes to be a good father to be a teacher to all
mankind.=========I've pondered that same thing, I
can only surmize;1. The age of marriage in those days was
traditionally 14-18 years old. Jesus could very well have been married, had fuly
grown children by the time he started his ministry at age 30. One gnostic myth
had it John the Beloved could have even been his eldest son.2. Not
the time of place to continue philosophies of man, but Joseph Smith suffered the
same fate, about the same age.
Religon is the worst thing that ever happened to God. Faith and true hapiness
comes within ourselve. What the Vatican says, or any organized religon, is only
heard by those to weak to listen what God created in each of us.
The scriptures teach that a bishop must be blameless and the husband of one
wife. How can that be interpreted any other way than that a bishop is
married?I wouldn't get too upset about what anyone or everyone
says about religion, especially those who find it doesn't fit them at all.
They are free to worship how or what they may.
RE: Craig Clark, The Catholic Church has a considerable theological stake in the
issue, Protestantism not so much, Mormonism not at ?? J S, Lectures on
Faith, Q. What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power.
(5:2.).And(JOD v 1 p 49-50): "The Lord fills the immensity of space.
What saith the Psalmist[139:7-10]? Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or
whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art
there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. Brigham Young“ Our Father which art in Heaven with, The supreme being
transcends space and time. The first goes to pieces if you begin to apply the
literal( exaltation) meaning to it. How can a sexual animal really be our
father? How can it be in the sky? The second falls into no such traps. C.S.
The Christian catacombs in Rome are empty because relic hunters took common
peoples' bones and sold them to the gullible across Europe as the finger of
St. James, the toe of another saint, the skull of St. Procopius, the spear used
to pierce Jesus' side, etc. Before proclaiming something fake, the Vatican
should document with the same rigor as Harvard the provenance and authenticity
of their own relics. Practice it if you wish, but celibacy is a later addition
to religious tradition and has nothing to do with Christian doctrine.
If Christ were married then, What difference would it make?No he
could not have had children for several reason, cheif among them they would
have inherited his divine side, He is the Son of God.So what
difference would it have made? HE is still who he said he is, and His Gospel is
still His Gospel, and His church is still His Church.Who are we to
decide Christ or Heavenly Father can not have a wife?It seems to
defy reason not to have a wife.But more importantly it changes
nothing, only our understanding of the divinity of the institution of family.
I simply accept the fact that Jesus Christ was married. "The Truth"
postulates that He couldn't have children without their inheriting Godhood.
I disagree. We don't know exactly in scientific terms what DNA was passed
from the Father terms of ability to go through the Atonement or overcome death.
What we do know is that all of us (all mankind) will be resurrected -- perhaps
because we share that DNA from Adam, whose father was Heavenly Father. But like
Jesus having siblings, which troubles Catholic dogma as well, which is widely
understood among Christian scholars, where it would make no sense to
"punish" Joseph & Mary, it likewise makes no sense that Christ would
not have the FULL blessings of, and follow, ALL and highest covenants. So
again, completely acceptable that He had a wife and family, and then like others
in history, left them to serve His 3-year mission.
Even if the papyrus scrap turns out to be authentic, it doesn't prove the
Catholic doctrine of celibacy wrong. Christians in the first few centuries A.D.
were not united in their beliefs; some groups believed things that other groups
condemned as false doctrine. If this writing were found to be of ancient origin,
I'd think the Catholic Church could easily dismiss it as the writings of a
heretic.So the reaction of the scholar at the Vatican strikes me as
kneejerk. But then, maybe he dismissed it as a fake not because of its
implications (which aren't necessarily threatening to Catholicism), but
because of its dubious origin.
What other stance could the Catholic Church make? They have to say it's
Some Mormons may be fond of claiming Mary Magdalene was the Lord's wife,
but they are completely wrong to do so. Mary Magdalene was a human female, and
thus the Lord's daughter, not his wife. With this, as in most things,
people would rather look at a scrap of paper than check with the Lord himself.
Talk about stupid! If you really wanted to know about the Lord's marriage
(which is eternal, and not to a human), you should ask Him about it. But, as
usual, most people think they are too smart to do that. The Vatican is actually
correct in noting that the Lord often used the metaphor of marriage to refer to
his people Israel. This is an indication of the eternal covenant between Him and
humans. But I assure you, there was no literal marriage between the Lord God
Almighty and a mere human being. Pretty much humans are out of control with
their hubris at such a thought. Big surprise. Is there any limit to human
Brent T. Aurora COAurora, COI simply accept the fact that Jesus
Christ was married. "The Truth" postulates that He couldn't have
children without their inheriting Godhood. I disagree.===========
A little Geneology can shed some lighton this....1. His
Father was God, His Mother a Mortal. As Latter-Day Saints we are taught that
through his Mother he inherited the seeds of death, through his Father, the
Power of Life over Death.1/2 God, 1/2 Mortal2.
Let's say He was indeed married and had children, Sons - to full fill
Mosaic Law.[He came to fullfill ALL the Laws].He being 1/2
God, and his wife would have been mortal.Genetically speaking, His
Off-spring would then have then had a 25% change of inheriting a sort of
Life-Over-Death Immortal Life power of sorts.Of all the carachters in the
New Testament, only John the Beloved - Who has never tasted death, Who was most
beloved on the Savior, and told while on the cross to watch over his Mother
[Mary Magdelene] and the other Mary [Mary Jesus's Mother, John's
GrandMother] -- still fills the bill.Just my thoughts.
LDS Liberal -- just my thoughts. First, science is beginning to learn how to
"activate" genetic markers or to "deactivate" them. Certainly
God the Father would know perfectly how to do so. You describe the genealogy of
Christ... His mother a mortal descendant of Adam and Eve, and His father the
immortal Heavenly Father. Let's agree that this provides an
"active" genetic proclivity to immortality. Certainly this allowed the
Savior to control His death; clinically dead after Gethsemane by standards we
understand, He "lives" long enough to be tried, tortured and crucified.
And then He is the first to be resurrected. But ALL OF US, every descendant of
Adam and Eve, will also be resurrected. Is that in our DNA? Probably so;
certainly no one understands how that works except God. But back to genealogy.
Heavenly Father and Heavenly Mother (one of them at least) are the biological
parents of both Adam and Eve. The difference between the three being that
Christ was the Firstborn of God "in the flesh" or in a fallen state.