Quantcast
Utah

At BYU forum, Evangelical Mark DeMoss says Christians must be civil

Comments

Return To Article
  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 24, 2012 9:31 p.m.

    I frequently cite 1 Cor. 10:29 which talks about not using our morals to justify infringing upon the rights of others. Paul's focus on the chapter was about not doing things, even those things we are otherwise allowed to do, if doing those things offends non-believers thus causing them to reject the Gospel. At every conference, every temple (re)opening, every pageant, etc...there are those picketing and causing LDS offense. Doing so makes them poor examples of the believers and poor witnesses for Christ.

    There are those who come on these boards who likewise do the same calling us cultists. They try to justify it using the vague theological justification yet love using it in a sociological context. Doing so makes them poor examples of the believers and poor witnesses for Christ.

    We LDS have our poor examples as well, but we are for the most part head and shoulders above those who oppose us. We may disagree with others, but we at least don't foam at the mouth.

  • Montana Mormon Miles City, MT
    Jan. 24, 2012 9:37 p.m.

    What a breath of fresh air this article was!!! Thank you very much.

  • RG Buena Vista, VA
    Jan. 25, 2012 5:05 a.m.

    It is one thing to care for the poor and needy as King Benjamin teaches in the book of Mosiah - when that is done by individuals, churches, or other private groups, and another thing thing when the government tries to do it. I am not suggesting that the government should have no role at all; but we all know that whatever the government does is usually inefficient and wasteful, and sometimes even corrupt (look at the kickbacks, backroom deals, and waivers given to friends of Obama all resulting from Obamacare). Look at the "war on poverty" that has not ended poverty, but instead has made it desirable to have kids outside of marriage, leading to fatherless homes, leading to all sorts of problems. Most of the well-intentioned ideas that the government wants to do come with unintended consequences, and they backfire. There are too many examples of this to even start to list.

  • raybies Layton, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 6:38 a.m.

    Civil!? But this isn't a religious matter! It's political, and that's the antithesis of civil... All's fair in politics and war, right? And who cares that short term attacks yield years of scars, when you can win the rights to scare voters away from voting for the best candidates using their silly religious fears? Why... this idea of civil political people is absurd. Who ever heard of one in the political realm called a "Civil" servant? Err... um... Oh wait...

    Yeah, I guess you got us there too. Civil would be nice.

  • AzTim Gilbert, AZ
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:17 a.m.

    Former Sen. Karen Hale pointed to her favorite term "liberal" in the Book of Mormon, "...and they were liberal to them all." Found in Alma 1:30, this chapter recounts that "because of the steadiness of the church" the people began to prosper and they began to take care of the poor. It was a voluntary, Church oriented expression of "liberal" treatment of the less fortunate. It was NOT a government imposed program.

  • Macfarren Dallas, TX
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:21 a.m.

    DeMoss must be pulling his hair out over Florida. The most recent Quinnipiac poll in Florida shows evangelicals favor Newt over Mitt by 13 points (CNN). If you are voting your political conviction, great. If you are voting on religion, perhaps you should reconsider.

  • johnnylingo62 Gray, TN
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:31 a.m.

    the word "liberal" as used in the scriptures does not equate with a political group, but means "giving liberally" not holding back, giving freely without expectation of repayment in return.
    Alma 1:30: "And thus, in their prosperous circumstances, they did not send away any who were naked, or that were hungry, or that were athirst, or that were sick, or that had not been nourished; and they did not set their hearts upon riches; therefore they were liberal to all, both old and young, both bond and free, both male and female, whether out of the church or in the church, having no respect to persons as to those who stood in need."
    This kind of liberalism is humanitarian and charity based... not government based.

  • ECR Burke, VA
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:34 a.m.

    "Those who follow Christ must always be civil, especially to each other..."

    Stop right there. There should be no caveat "especially to each other.' There is nothing in the gospel of Jesus Christ that says we should be selective about our civil behavior. We should be civil to all of God's children. End of story.

    RG said, "...whatever the government does is usually inefficient and wasteful..."

    This statement seems a bit broad and general and is not based on fact. Certainly there are government programs that are inefficient and that do not meet the goals of the original legislation that put them in place. But to say "whatever the government does", in other words, everything the government does, is wasteful is not true.

    - Think of the Agricultural Extension Program administered through land grant universities, that has produced the most productive farmers in the world
    - Think of the efforts required to rebuild our military might after Pearl Harbor that led to the end of WWII within four years after we entered it
    - Think of a Medicare system that operates with at least as much efficiency as prvate insurance
    It is not "civil" to discount successes with hyberbolic generalizations.

  • Esquire Springville, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:34 a.m.

    I find it interesting how the DesNews spun this. Compare this from the other paper: "Mark DeMoss has a message for his fellow evangelicals: You cant attack and demean Mormons or President Barack Obama and still consider yourself a follower of Jesus Christ. It is impossible to abide by Pauls admonition to regard others as more important than yourself, DeMoss said...." It reminds me of sitting in church over the years where when the President was a Republican, people would pray for him, but when the President is a Democrat, not a word. People speak Christian principles, but they are conditional and rarely lived, even in church or in the pages of a chruch-owned newspaper. Your writer was very selective in applying the words of DeMoss.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:44 a.m.

    Is it civil to say everyone else is false?

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:03 a.m.

    Jesus was a liberal when compared to the pharisees. That much is obvious. He changed the old, conservative ways of doing things and improved upon them. He said, in no uncertain terms, that those who hoard wealth, while others have nothing, aren't going to make it to heaven.
    In as much as ye have done it to the least of these my breathren....

  • ute alumni Tengoku, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:17 a.m.

    ernie:
    civil? true? yes

  • Doug10 Roosevelt, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:50 a.m.

    Cudos to the Christian who came to BYU and told those listening how they should be behaving.

    Not all have to agree but his principles are true and his words have cut to the core as there are some who seem to be interested in justifying their attitudes and or behavior.

    There are even rules in war but in politics in this country those all go out the window. If your party does not get elected then you have the 007 license to kill with words any person who gets elected not from your party.

  • Allen#2 WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:52 a.m.

    Excellent article. Be kind to Mormons and do not demonize Barack Obama.

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:58 a.m.

    Novel idea: Christians must be..."christian". Whoa, this is groundbreaking stuff!

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 9:42 a.m.

    As a frequent recipient of incivility from religious zealots I would cheer the call for civility for Christians and others.

    I am not anti-religious, but I am for keeping religion in its proper place, which I believe to be within a persons own mind, home, church and personal life. I believe it is uncivil when this is not the case.

    Such cases of actions of, the redefining the meaning of words like marriage, the pretend ownership of holidays like Christmas, the feigned persecution when not allowed to break civil laws like placing advertising in the public square and even the misinterpretation of the meanings in the American Constitution.

    If Christians and other religions wish to not be the object of uncivil actions, they need to not be uncivil to other people, other beliefs and other religions.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:16 a.m.

    @LDS4: At every conference, every temple (re)opening, every pageant, etc...there are those picketing and causing LDS offense. Doing so makes them poor examples of the believers and poor witnesses for Christ.

    (Jesus)Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheeps clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits(Mt 7:15-16). Fruit can be doctrine and Christians have the right to be fruit inspectors. In John 7:24, Jesus said "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment"

    (Christians) should earnestly CONTEND for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.(Jude 1:3).

    Paul was sarcastic to the *Judaizers (Jewish Laws /customs) of his day, As for those *agitators I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves(Galatian 5:12 NIV).

  • AZRods Maricopa, AZ
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:16 a.m.

    @ULTRABOB, I'm sure that most anti religionist would agree that keeping religion in "it's proper place" would be ideal.
    However, Christians as well as all religions have the same rights to speak out, express themselves and be a part of the political process as much as anyone and not be limited to "their proper place" just as those who are anti religion.
    Being civil and allowing everyone the right to express their opinions is what our religeous God fearing founding fathers fought for;)

  • USAlover Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:18 a.m.

    @Ultra Bob,

    As a Christian, I agree with most of your Church v. State views. However, when it comes to "crosses for fallen police officers on public lands", don't you think the "civil" thing to do is allow the fallen officer to pre-humously decide what symbol would be used to honor his/her service, if he/she were to be slain on duty?

    I think public land is a PEFFECT place to honor a fallen officer, however and with whatever that officer would have chosen (ie a cross, a star of david, a nike sign, a question mark, a McDonalds sign, whatever!!!) After all, aren't we honoring the OFFICER and not the religion???? Isn't most civil to honor the wishes of the deceased?

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:25 a.m.

    **'Gays greatest threat to America, Buttars says' - By Aaron Falk - DSnews - 02/19/09

    **'Homosexuality Is a Sin: Rick Perry Tells Bisexual Teen Why He Opposes Gays in the Military' - By Buck Sexton - The Blaze - 12/19/2011

    '..I dont agree that openly gays should serve in the militaryDont ask dont tell was working I hate the sin but i love the sinner.

    Yes.

    We DO need to be more civil to each other.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:41 a.m.

    **'Fox News host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News - 07/17/11

    **'Trump on Obama's Birth Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim' - Fox Nation - 03/30/11

    Yes.

    We DO need to be more civil to each other.

  • Still Blue after all these years Kaysville, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:44 a.m.

    We saw in South Carolina how "civil" the evangelicals are. and it takes about 10 seconds on the internet to see as well. I rarely, if ever, hear a Mormon talking badly about other religions. DeMoss needs to go give his lecture in the deep south.

  • JKayDS EULESS, TX
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:46 a.m.

    Pegan

    Yes I agree with you
    We ALL need to be more civil
    And I am not just talking about the Christians.
    The "gays" are some of the most uncivil commenter that I read.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 10:55 a.m.

    'The "gays" are some of the most uncivil commenter that I read.' - JKayDS | 10:46 a.m. Jan. 25, 2012

    Would you please provide some examples?

    Or is it only 'acceptable' when Mormons do it?

    **'Gays greatest threat to America, Buttars says' - By Aaron Falk - DSnews - 02/19/09

    **'Buttars used 'black baby' remark again, officials say' - By Rodger L. Hardy - DSNews - 07/05/08

    'At an earlier legislative session Buttars said in referring to a bill, "this baby is black ... it's a dark and ugly thing." - article

    **'Sen. Orrin Hatch utters profanity about President Obama's health care reform' - By Jamshid Ghazi Askar - DSNews - 03/01/11

    **'Silent LGBT protest sparks crude comment' - By Mohammad Allam - The Daily Utah Chronicle - 02/16/10

    I use these exmaples...

    because Chris Buttars was elected in Utah...x3 times.

    Hatch, I believe x7 times.

    I cannot even REPEAT what Rick Votaw.

    But you, have no examples.

  • Midvaliean MIDVALE, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 11:20 a.m.

    @Still Blue after all these years
    Try hanging out with some of the Mormons I know. Other religions are garbage to them. Of course that is a flaw of the individual. But I see it all the time. More so in the past, and more so against Catholics.

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 11:49 a.m.

    Look.

    I am not here to play the 'he said/she said' game.

    If we will concede that we ALL need to be more civil.

    Then we must acknowledge that we have ALL been UNcivil, at one point in time.

    I have given examples on:
    Race
    Religion
    Orientation
    Profanity

    Of what NOT, to do.

    I can only say I have done my best...

    to be the example, I would want my daughters to be.

    It's that, or raise your children to call ANYONE they disagree with...

    'sinners.'

    Lets work, to be a BETTER, example.

    Good day.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 11:50 a.m.

    Ok Mods, let's try this again - there's nothing against the rules here:

    I'm tired of all these "pledges" being passed around for our representatives to follow.

    Every single one of them is about a particular point of view and if the candidates sign the "pledge" then they obviously intend to disenfranchise a certain segment of their constituency who don't agree with the "pledge" as a result.

    (relating to the article!) As for the "left" being against the religionist position on marriage; If you don't agree with same-sex marriage, for heaven's sake DON'T HAVE ONE. You don't have the right to determine who another of your fellow Americans can or can not marry and whether or not they will be treated equally by the law and government.

    How could any religious person, who honestly follows Christ's teachings, think that it is "civil" to discriminate against another person?

  • Mimi Venice, CA
    Jan. 25, 2012 11:54 a.m.

    Ultra Bob,

    Our light cannot shine, as Christ said it should, if it's kept hidden inside our mind, behind closed doors, or under a bushel.

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 12:23 p.m.

    sharrona
    (Christians) should earnestly CONTEND for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.(Jude 1:3).

    LDS4
    Agreed, we should always be ready to give an answer to every man that asks about the reason for our hope and faith (1 Pet. 3:15). We can contend without being contentious. We can be steadfast in our position and give reason for our positions and respond to the assertions of others, but we still must be gentle as lambs and avoid offending others as Paul clearly discusses in 1 Cor. 10.

    Picketing temples, which we hold sacred, intentionally causes offense.

    Making inflammatory claims about magic underwear intentionally causes offense.

    Professional anti-LDS who knowingly mislead others about our REAL beliefs intentionally cause offense.

    To such will Jesus say, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 12:40 p.m.

    WOW! I thought the headline read "Evangelical Mark DeMoss says Christians must be *evil*"

    I'm glad to see I misread it!

    Any genuine attempt to make peace and promote friendship between different faiths is more than pretty decent in my book.

  • Tzadikim Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 25, 2012 1:10 p.m.

    Mark DeMoss has a Biblical point. Civility is always the better road for public discourse. Are dissenting opinions allowed to be shared, with civility, at BYU? This article did not define any terms or conditions, however, or cite God's Word when it comes time to obey our Lord and contend earnestly "for the faith, once delivered to the saints". For those who follow the Bible as the final Word, this was another lovely day in the market place of ideas, like Paul defining the Unknown God to pagans at the Aeropagus.

    Can you reference some substance of his speech? Is he speaking for himself, a denomination, parsing a text? This article doesn't give DeMoss' opinion for exposing false teachers, as the apostle Paul did "with boldness". Jesus' brother Jude said to "contend earnestly for the faith". Paul instructed to send "pervertors of Christ's gospel out of the church" (NLT) and let them be "anathema" (Greek- accursed, excommunicated). Obviously you can civilly excommunicate a brother for not adhering to your rules and doctrines.

    I follow Peter's instructions, to "sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts", always ready to give a defense, with gentleness and reverence. (1Pet.3:13-17)

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 1:22 p.m.

    The reference that is made to "liberal" in the Book of Mormon is a term that has now become archaic. "Liberal" used to mean generous. It had no reference to politcs. It has now become a political term that refers to those to the left of center. The Book of Mormon is making NO reference to the word "liberal" as it is used today in the politcal sense. Sorry Senator.

  • Capella Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 25, 2012 1:35 p.m.

    I am really saddened by the LDS here who keep calling another person's opinion "hate", when it doesn't agree with theirs. My Mormon family are honest, proud of their Mormon heritage, and keep sending out missionaries 7 generations later. They do not consider someone "a hater" just because they call you a cultist, a non-traditional Christian, or even a false religion. If it is done "civilly", while in discussion or debate, it is not Hate Speech to express an opposing opinion.

    If that is your definition of Hate Speech, then Mormons drew first blood. Joseph condemned all denominations. You are aware of your own missionary lessons, aren't you?

    Are there any Saints here who will own their history, who know what Joseph Smith's First Vision claimed, who can cite what founding Mormonism claimed about all the previous 1,830 years of Christianity? What was claimed- uncivilly by DeMoss' standards- about "all other Christian denominations"? About the veracity of the Bible, or the authority of any other church's baptisms, confirmations, marriages?

    My grandparents struggled, their ancestors died with the Willey Handcart Co., to reach a place where they could live in their truth.
    Atleast honor your own message.

  • ute alumni Tengoku, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 2:11 p.m.

    capella:
    Joseph Smith didn't draw first blood, God told him not to join any church as there were none that had the fullness of the Gospel, only parts.

  • DonO Draper, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 2:12 p.m.

    Are evangelicals really Christians? If they believe in a Trinity and that their three-in-one God is a spirit, are they not denying the existence of the resurrected Jesus? By their definition of God it seems that they are not truly Christian. I don't necessarily have a dog in this fight but have watched the labels being thrown around with impugnity. It seems that Mormons, with their belief in Jesus, are far more Christian...and far less cultists...than the Trinity crowd.

  • Jonathan Eddy Payson, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 2:24 p.m.

    Scott Howell commented how much he enjoys speaking at BYU because he is able to openly express his faith, asserting that he is a Democrat because of his beliefs. âI believe in education, good health and in the principles of Mosiah Chapter 4,â he said, referring to a passage in the Book of Mormon that urges care for the poor.

    Former State Sen. Karen Hale echoed Howell, noting that her favorite use of the term âliberalâ is a Book of Mormon verse that says the people fed the hungry and clothed the naked and âwere liberal to all.â

    Very interesting viewpoints. Satan also believes in care for the poor, food for the hungry and clothing for the naked.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 2:43 p.m.

    @DonO
    "If they believe in a Trinity and that their three-in-one God is a spirit, are they not denying the existence of the resurrected Jesus?"

    No, they're not. Don't be ridiculous.

    @Jonathan Eddy
    "Former State Sen. Karen Hale echoed Howell, noting that her favorite use of the term âliberalâ is a Book of Mormon verse that says the people fed the hungry and clothed the naked and âwere liberal to all.â

    Very interesting viewpoints. Satan also believes in care for the poor, food for the hungry and clothing for the naked. "

    People wonder why liberals might have problems with Mormon candidates... here's a hint, stop making defaming liberals look like a Mormon belief.

  • lineup2 SALT LAKE CITY, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 2:44 p.m.

    Loved the artical! It brings up great views that all Christ followers need to be civil.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Jan. 25, 2012 2:44 p.m.

    Awesome, I appreciate this article and am using his three points to share with others. That can be applied to all aspects of our lives. Good to read about Scott Howell, I went to school with him and met him when he was in office, he invited my daughter to come spend part of a day there with him. I thought that was really nice of him.

  • Jonathan Eddy Payson, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 3:04 p.m.

    @ Capella

    "I am really saddened by the LDS here who keep calling another person's opinion "hate", when it doesn't agree with theirs. My Mormon family are honest, proud of their Mormon heritage, and keep sending out missionaries 7 generations later. They do not consider someone "a hater" just because they call you a cultist, a non-traditional Christian, or even a false religion. If it is done "civilly", while in discussion or debate, it is not Hate Speech to express an opposing opinion.

    If that is your definition of Hate Speech, then Mormons drew first blood. Joseph condemned all denominations. You are aware of your own missionary lessons, aren't you?"

    I say this in all "civility", you appear to be easily saddened.

    Secondly, if Joseph was a prophet of God, he condemned no denominations; God did. I would have to wonder if you yourself understand your own Mormon heritage and history and ask why you would be so quick to challenge others regarding their understanding of the same.

    Thirdly, even a child knows the difference between hate and "opinion" when it smacks them on the cheek.

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 3:36 p.m.

    De Moss's point is well taken--especially when we now see Mitt Romney turning into an attack dog and aligning with guys like Chris Christie, one of the most uncivil people I've heard.

    But as civilly as Evangelicals might speak to "non-believers," there's a constant undertone in their interactions--whether spoken or not--of "You're going to be tortured by God for all eternity, with no escape, if you don't believe what I do."

    Mormons, at least, grant everyone (except the comparatively few Mormons destined for Outer Darkness) an equal chance at a nice eternity, whether they become Mormon in this world, or not.

    Thus, as a non-Christian, I take Mormon civility sincerely. I can't say the same for Evangelical "civility," because of its terrorist theology.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 3:46 p.m.

    AZRods.

    No one denies the right of Americans to speak their piece.

    But when you say that the right of free speech also applies to religions I disagree. Churches, religions, corporations, people speaking for groups are not the same as individual people and should not have free speech.

    I disagree also about what our founding fathers fought for.

    First I dont believe the business politicians usually refered to as founding fathers did much actual fighting.

    Second, In order to raise an army they made a lot of blue sky promises about the nature and worth of the common man and how they would let him participate in his government if they won the war.

    Third, their actual motivation was the take over control of the economic power that was currently sending much wealth to England and denying them the profits they wanted.

    I believe the same thing is going on today between the states and the federal government.

  • Capella Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 25, 2012 4:00 p.m.

    ute alumni, can we all follow the same rules of civility here? Would that be fair? Because villifying someone as a "hater" because he calls you a "false representer of the Biblical Christ" (modern term, "cultist", Webster definition #6), is being uncivil. They are just defining you according to your own stated doctrines. As every LDS prophet has reiterated, Mormons do not follow the "traditional
    Christ of historic Christianity". Gordon B. Hinkley and Thomas S. Monson's words, no one else's. This has been Mormon doctrine from 1830 on. Why doth thou protest your own doctrines?

    Can I use the Prophet Joseph's same words about how he considered all Christian denominations? I think "abomination" violates the rules, so you can go to your own source documents. I'm looking at it now.

    Would you prefer that Biblical believers ignore their Lord's commands to vigorously defend the faith that was first delivered to the saints? Does the Biblical text say that you are to embrace every opinion, new doctrine and revelation? How about radical, aberrant, false teachings? How about ones that claim: "We have supposed that God is the same forever, but I am here to refute that."

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 4:21 p.m.

    Mimi said:

    Our light cannot shine, as Christ said it should, if it's kept hidden inside our mind, behind closed doors, or under a bushel.

    The problem is that all people dont believe as you, and the Constitution of our nations says that you are not allowed to try to make us believe as you do.

    So when you shine your light in our eyes and cause us irritation we are allowed to say Stop it.

  • Ultra Bob Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 5:17 p.m.

    USAlover.

    There is a rule, regulation, a law against posting private -*advertising in the public square. The law applies to all Americans, non-Americans, even religious Americans. It is a good law. It protects our citizens by not allowing an unfair and unwanted advantage in the struggle for the pursuit of happiness.

    There is a law that gives people the freedom of religion, that same law gives people the freedom from religion.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 5:33 p.m.

    @Free Agency:I take Mormon civility sincerely. I can't say the same for Evangelical "civility," because of its terrorist theology.
    Mosiah 2:39) mercy has no claim on that man; therefore his final doom is to endure a never ending torment. see(2 Nephi 28:21-22).

    (Mt 10:28)fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.(gehenna)see(Rev 14:11).

    @LDS4: Picketing temples, which we hold sacred, intentionally causes offense. Making inflammatory claims about magic underwear intentionally causes offense. That is problematic and wrong.

    (Ether 8:19) the Lord worketh not in secret combinations. JS advised against secret societies . Free-Masonry has many secret ceremonies in common with Mormons, like under-garments. My Father was a Free-Mason

  • Hutterite American Fork, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 6:22 p.m.

    You can say what you want, based on stuff that could easily be totally be made up, and not have to prove any of it. This is not a recipe for civil discourse.

  • UtahBlueDevil Durham, NC
    Jan. 25, 2012 7:43 p.m.

    AzTim - you said...

    "Former Sen. Karen Hale pointed to her favorite term "liberal" in the Book of Mormon, "...and they were liberal to them all." Found in Alma 1:30, this chapter recounts that "because of the steadiness of the church" the people began to prosper and they began to take care of the poor. It was a voluntary, Church oriented expression of "liberal" treatment of the less fortunate. It was NOT a government imposed program."

    Here is the thing. The whole voluntary thing didn't work here in the states. And it didn't work in the church either. Unfortunately, people by nature just don't care about their neighbors enough to not need some encouragement to do the right thing.

    It is like saying we don't need speed limits because ideally we should all know to now drive at a unsafe speed. We know what that speed is, and yet we still rely on speed limits, or stop signs to have us drive civilly. We don't live under a king, nor a theocracy. We live under a government where "we the people" choose what we as a society choose to do together to take care of the poor among us.

  • Bebyebe UUU, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:31 p.m.

    My opinion of LDS civility was made when the first person said "If you don't like it you can leave."

  • Free Agency Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 8:52 p.m.

    @Sharrona

    In your quote from (I assume) the Book of Mormon, you don't state what "that man's" offense is. I'm not Mormon, but my understanding of Mormon teachings about the "non-believer" in the Afterlife is this:

    Whoever doesn't accept the Gospel in this life will get an opportunity to accept it in the next. Everyone goes to some level of heaven except those Mormons who, once having accepted the Holy Ghost, subsequently deny It. Those people go to Outer Darkness--the torment of which is eternal separation from God. But none of the flames, pitchfork poking, thirsting for water but never being given a drop, etc., of Evangelical theology.

    If I'm mistaken on this, please correct me. Also, please inform me of what "that man's" offense was that he'd be made to endure a "never ending torment." (And what form would that torment take?)

  • chris8484 South Jordan, UT
    Jan. 25, 2012 9:31 p.m.

    It seems that Governor Romney is not following the advice of his advisor. In Iowa he began the mudslinging when Speaker Gingrich promised a positive campaign focused only on the issues. Now he is receiving what he gave. I find the lack of civility of politics not only un-Christian but wrong on every level.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 2:56 a.m.

    Evangelicals do not matter as much in Florida as in SC. There are lots of Cuban Catholics in the GOP there, and a few Mexican Catholics like Colomba Bush. There are also lots of northern retiree Catholics, and many other demographics that are much smaller in SC. It is a different state, I once read a little of a book on Florida subtitled "South of the South".

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 2:57 a.m.

    Florida has actually elected a Mormon to the senate (and it was after I was born, although just barely).

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 3:01 a.m.

    It is unfair to lump all Evangelicals together. It is unfair to judge all Mormons by how some act. However Evangelical Christianity is made up of hundreds of Churches, many of which are totally indepdent and not connected with any other Church. There is no way to generalize about all of them, and even defining who exactly is an Evangelical Christian is difficult. Of the current presidential candidates only Ron Paul is.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 3:04 a.m.

    In my expeirence the faculty at BYU has much broader policial views than at other institutions of higher learning. They run the full spectrum of political views, as opposed to the narrow lock-step all ultra-left views of the faculty here at Eastern Michigan University. Of course considering my univeristy is being sued because it forced a student out for refusing to renounce her religious views, this should not surprise anyone. There is a reason I say I am in the belly of the beast.

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:09 p.m.

    sharrona
    @LDS4: Picketing temples, which we hold sacred, intentionally causes offense. Making inflammatory claims about magic underwear intentionally causes offense. That is problematic and wrong.

    (Ether 8:19) the Lord worketh not in secret combinations. JS advised against secret societies . Free-Masonry has many secret ceremonies in common with Mormons, like under-garments. My Father was a Free-Mason

    LDS4
    Huh? I don't understand. Are you saying that the above somehow gives you the green light to disobey the Bible's command to not cause unbelievers offense? Really? It seems to me that many anti-LDS don't really care about what Paul said. They seem only to care about harming the LDS Church. Many anti-LDS feel free to cause offense and excuse those that do so. Many anti-LDS feel free to "lie for Jesus".

    Is the goal of life to do everything possible to destroy the LDS Church or is it to live according to the guidelines the Bible provides about how Christians should live? It appears to me that many anti-LDS believe it's #1.

    Is this really being an example of the believers?

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 1:39 p.m.

    RE: LDS4, Huh? I don't understand. Are you saying that the above somehow gives you the green light to disobey the Bible's command to not cause unbelievers offense?

    Jesus replied, "Everyone knows what I teach. I have preached regularly in the synagogues and the Temple, where the people gather. I have NOT spoken in Secret.(John 18:20 NIV)

    Re: LDS4, Many anti-LDS feel free to "lie for Jesus". I dontInstead,[I]we will speak the truth in love, growing in every way more and more like Christ, who is the head of his body,the church(elect). (Ephesians 4:15 NLT)

    I have many Mormon neighbors and family,and we exchange Christmas presents, but
    "the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.(Philemon 1:6 KJV)

    For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son(*monogenes), that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16 NIV) *Relationship indeed but must be distinguished from generation applied to man.

  • Capella Bakersfield, CA
    Jan. 26, 2012 2:11 p.m.

    @Jon.Eddy (3:04pm, 1/25)

    1- Because I love my LDS family and community, and because you asked why I challenge their understanding of their history, I will explain, civilly of course..

    It is obvious from the daily, deeply upset posts here that there is not an awareness that one cannot attack all other Christians as as an abomination, without incurring a response. There has been no change, new revelation or rescinding of that moniker, to my knowledge. When LDS leaders continue to claim that other churches aren't just incorrect, but "all their creeds (are) an abomination...and those professors all corrupt", that condemnation calls the rest of professing Christians "vile, shameful, detestable", (Webster- abomination, def#1-3).

    Words have meanings and consequences.

    Every missionary's knock, every General Conference, every testimony of Joseph Smith is reaffirmation of that attack, whether or not you understand that.

    2- To answer your smack on my cheek, I am beyond sad that one religious sect (JS's word) can claim to nullify all prior 21 centuries of practicing Christianity as valid, and then cry "bigots, haters, prejudice" when their victims respond.

    3- I agree that we know an opinion from an attack.

  • Munk Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 6:14 p.m.

    "It is never an option to claim Christ as my Savior and behave toward anyone in an uncivil manner,â

    Yes.. and in my opinion it is usually the non LDS that initiate uncivilized behavior. I am a Catholic and I have seen it first hand. I have also seen some pretty rude LDS, but in my experience that is not the norm.