Here is one. Sign me up.
As long as the Democrats support abortion and unions, and as long as they
support people like President Obama, Senator Harry Reid, and their ilk, they
will never get my vote!
Aaron M says: "As long as the Democrats support abortion and unions, and as
long as they support people like President Obama, Senator Harry Reid, and their
ilk, they will never get my vote!"Hey Aaron, Unions gave you
the 8 hour work day and the weekend you're now enjoying. Also, not all
Democrats support abortions. I am well acquainted with the Harry Reid extended
families. They are wonderful, active LDS families. I'm proud to know them.
Maybe if you ventured out of rarified atmosphere of Utah County you'd find an
interesting world out there with great people, some of whom think a little
differently than you.
I guess it depends on where you are. Since moving to Utah from another state,
and as a convert to the LDS faith, I found myself further and further at odds
with my neighbors and fellow members.When our high priest group
became a fan club meeting for Hannity, Beck, and Limbaugh I was disgusted. But
on the day the conversation turned to how much ammunition we need in our storage
because the Mark of Cain is bringing socialism into the White House, I got up
and walked out.I used to vote Republican occasionally, but those
days are gone, too.Now I guess I'm just a generic Christian -- and a
lot happier on Sunday afternoons.
As long as the Democrats want to prevent South Carolina from building Boeing
aircraft because it is a right to work state, and as long as abortion is a plank
in their platform the majority of Utahns will vote against them.If
the Democrats are so proud of Obama why didn't they invite him to visit Utah and
campaign for Peter Corroon when he ran against Gov. Herbert?
@ 4th Generation,The Fair Labor Standards Act is what effectively
established the 8 hour workday by requiring overtime pay for any time above and
beyond 8 hours in a 24 hour period. It was passed by the U.S. Congress.In fact, many unions opposed various provisions of the FLSA. For
example, several of the most powerful unions opposed minimum wage provisions
because they were concerned that it would also become a maximum wage.Unions are also not the guarantor of employee safety rights at this point, as
the federal government has assumed those responsibilities. See OSHA and MSHA
Would love to see "LDS Democrats" become nationwide in scope.
Theres that pesky little abortion thing. I also agree that as long as the
Democrats support the unions and the deaths of the unborn I could never be a
Democrat. Other than that I am closely aligned in my philosophy with the
Democrats. I could probably plug my nose and look the other way with the union
junk but the abortion issue and Democrats hiding behind the lie of (we are
supporting choice)is too much for me to handle.
Naw, the Republicans have not been that good a messaging. The Republicans are
far from perfect and there are many factions within the Republicans.The LDS church teaches us to:Avoid debtBe self reliantBe HonestObey the lawNot exercise unrighteous dominionDemocrats will not stop borrowing money.They enable people to not be
self reliant.Claim they created or saved jobs that cannot be verified
(will not even be honest with themselves).They refuse to enforce laws they
don't like (like immigration). They committed multiple violations of the
constitution to force Obama Care down our throats.They use the force of
government to finance their favorite charities (like welfare). There is no
freedom with them.Most LDS are Republican because it is blatantly
obvious that the Democrat party promotes the exact opposite of what the church
teaches. Those that can't see it have blinded themselves to the truth.
Dabakis, a proud homosexual and founder of Equality Utah and the Utah Pride
Center, is a good example of why church members and many other Christians are
increasingly wary of the Democratic Party and how it has changed in the last two
decades. (By the by, "Gay Pride" is a rather direct fulfillment of
Romans 1:32, see also v. 27.)I don't like the antics the state
Republican party is up to and I felt that a lot of the Utah County Democratic**
candidates in this last election were much better than the Republican
alternatives. But I couldn't feel comfortable voting for people who take Pride
in their homosexual acts, whose idea of Equality is forcing everyone to think
sodomy is an acceptable lifestyle, and who do all they can to steer the
community into being a mecca for homosexuals.** Then again, if you
compare the Utah County Democratic Party platform with the platforms of Salt
Lake County or mainstream national Democrats you can see the Utah County folks
are a very different party; perhaps they should consider splitting from the
Democratic party and losing their SLC and national baggage.
The idea that GOP leaders are the source of the message that good members of the
church can't be democrats is a non sequitur. The comment comes from regular
church members who compare the positions and draw their own conclusions. The
LDS Church is non-partisan and doesn't counsel members how to vote except on
moral questions. Leaders should scrupulously avoid partisan discussions at
church meetings. However,in blaming the Republican Party for the "good
church members can't be democrats" tag, LDS democrats like Dabakis are just
looking for someone to blame for their poor share of the LDS vote. As an LDS
local GOP chairman in Virginia, my advice, brethren, is to look to your own
organizations and the messages coming from your own leadership and don't point
the finger at me!
re:grandpaJ, AaronMI suppose you won't be voting for Romney then
since Romneycare permits state funding of abortions. As a former
Indpendent, now Democrat I agree with the Church stand on abortion, that it
should be reserved to rape, incest and life/death issues. Has the Church called
for the repeal of Roe v Wade?
Nobody is pro-abortion. 'Supporting choice' is exactly, precisely what this
Democrat, and many others I know, are for. Abortion has been legal for almost
40 years. Four Republican presidents have presided over the nation during that
time. Not one of them made it their mission to undo Roe V. Wade. So many people in the Church forgot about that pesky little free agency thing.
And I'll never understand the vilification of unions. It's sad that regular, hard-working, middle class Republicans vote against
their own economic interests because Democrats are pro-choice. And then all too
often turn around and denigrate the single mom on welfare.
Christy you stated "So many people in the Church forgot about that pesky
little free agency thing." Nice joke you made there. Does health care ring
a bell. Now I could go on, but what's the point.
The Dems believe that if you throw enough money at a problem it will somehow
just go away. That is the exact opposite of what the Church teaches. If they
would just stop throwing good money after bad, they would have a lot more
"As long as the Democrats want to prevent South Carolina from building
Boeing aircraft because it is a right to work state"Utah's
Democrat in Congress voted against the legislation that would have closed that
plant. So your point is...well, you don't have a point.
President James E Faust was a prominent mormon democrat. Was he a bad person? If
people would vote for the best character and moral candidate rather than a
political party our nation would be better off.Utah county is one of
the most fraudulent counties in the nation, and most are mormon republicans.
Politics are philosophies of men mingled with scripture. Vote for
the person with the most character. They are the ones who don't promote
themselves, make personal attacks on their opponent, have morals, and are
religious, They can be from any religion, any race, or gender. These types of
people need to be elected NOT the career politicians.
Apparently no one here has noticed that the LDS position on abortion is almost
identical to that of the Democratic Party. The Party supports abortion only in
cases of incest, rape, or to save the mother's life. So does the church.There seems to be a kind of myopia or tunnel vision that affects
conservatives in Utah -- and elsewhere.It's only the extreme
evangelicals who oppose abortion for those reasons. Utahns claim to support
individual and family rights. What can be more individual or family than making
the terrible decision to sacrifice an unborn child for one of those reasons?Either you believe and support your church -- or you don't. Which is
it? Church or political party?
Has anyone actually noticed that the LDS Church is considered
"pro-choice" by many anti-abortion groups? If one wants abortion
legal for instances of rape, incest, or the health of the mother, the only
person who truly knows if it is an instance of rape or incest is the girl of
woman involved. And the only person who can determine if a mother's health
should be considered in the decision is again, the mother. The courts take too
much time and cannot make the decision for her. I don't want big government
making the decision. I want women to be able to make that difficult decision
for themselves. Yes, I believe that the large number of abortions
today is morally reprehensible. But so is forcing a twelve-year old victim of
incest or rape to carry a child full term. And that is what many on the
"pro-life" side want.
The difference between Democrat and a Republican can be likened to those who
believe in self-reliance (Republicans)as compared to those who believe in
entitlements (Democrats). Mormons tend to value self-reliance and that draws
more to Republican party. You can tell a good political movement by what is
values and the fruits brought forth. While both parties have bad apples, the
values endorsed by the Republican party are more pure and fruitful to society.
Democrats might try to draw LDS members, but I find it a difficult sell to those
members who understand LDS doctrine, actively try to live by its principles, and
can discern between what is bad, neutral, good, or better for society.
To the uber-Progressive Mormons on these threads who promote redistribution of
wealth --- I think Pres Uchtdorf put and end to that philosophy in Priesthood
Meeting tonight.I can't wait to see how people like LDS Lib,
MormonDem, Christy and the others who support the stealing from one to give to
another spin the eternal truths taught by Pres. Uchtdorf.Socialism/Communism is of the devil, not Christ.Gotta love it when
true doctrines are taught. I guess we will see who follows the Lord's anointed,
right Senator Reid?!
Free Agency is not in the scriptures. As for Abortion laws are here to protect
people. There is no free agency for the people involved. Did God give us the
right to do evil? Are laws against Shoplifting infringing on agency?As for Health Care part of charity is willingly doing it. There is no benefit
in forced charity. Violates the 10th commandment. That is why most LDS peole
are Republicans. Very charitable with there property. Not there neighbors.
Re:RantbullyPerhaps you could give us an example of a country which
doesn't have social safety nets that you wouldn't mind living in.The
LDS church has a welfare system for active members so apparently it makes
allowances for those who aren't "self-reliant."The LDS
church doesn't endorse a political party.
Re: Truthseeker,Churches and non-profit organizations do a better
job at sustaining the needs of the poor than does the government while teaching
self-reliance. While the Church does not endorse a political party, members of
the Church gravitate to the party that better represents the positive fruitful
values endorsed by the Church.
@RantBully, having a Republican explain what Democrats believe can be likened to
an evangelical minister teaching his or her congregation about Mormonism.
I get along with my local Democrat friends, and for the most part we want the
same things, we just have different ways of wanting them. But my biggest problem
is with the Democratic national party platform and they're pro-abortion stance.
(Please don't give me that "It's pro-choice" nonsense. If the
Democrats on a national level we're truly pro-choice they'd have no problem with
women seeking abortions getting both pro and con information on the subject and
then allowing them time to study it and think it over. They don't. They
constantly fight it.) My other problems with problems Dems on the national level
is how they think the government is the answer to all problems. The only way
that can happen is if they tax us all to death to pay for everything they want
the government to provide. As the saying goes--"The bigger the government,
the smaller the citizen." So for those reasons, you won't find this LDS
member joining the Democratic party. I will admit to voting Dem in local
elections to trying to create a greater parity on Utah's Capitol Hill.
"So many people in the Church forgot about that pesky little free agency
thing." There is so much more to the abortion issue than the
mother's use of free agency. It's a moral issue about protecting the right of
the unborn child. Using your logic, does murder or other criminal behavior
become ok simply because it is an expression of free agency?It's
about protecting the child!
Rifleman | 4:53 p.m. Oct. 1, 2011Salt Lake City, UtahAs long as the
Democrats want to prevent South Carolina from building Boeing aircraft because
it is a right to work state, and as long as abortion is a plank in their
platform the majority of Utahns will vote against them.Are you aware
of the Republican plank of no abortion period. Mitt Romney's position is
considered pro abortion. Do you want to criminalize a doctor's and family's
choice to save the life of the mother whenever the choice has to be made? Do you
want to criminalize a family whose 13 year old daughter was gang raped? Better
read your Republican plank.
To 4th Generation--for your information, I was not born and raised here in Utah.
I grew up in Idaho, near Boise, in a predominantly non-LDS environment! And I
have lived in other states besides Utah and Idaho! In fact, I am more more
conservative than most Utahns. And I am NOT a member of the Tea Party!I grew up on a family farm--no 40-hour work week there! And yes, I worked out
in the fields, especially if I wanted to eat at my parent's house!Unions don't create jobs--businesses do! Unions don't pay taxes--businesses
and people do!And, since I was adopted, I am very, VERY against
abortion! It always amazes me that everybody who is FOR abortion is already
alive!As for Harry Reid--I am not saying anything about him as a
member! But as for being a senator, he is a joke! Plenty of bad Republicans in
Washington, too--but NO good Democrats!I am not saying that you
can't be a Democrat and be a member of the church--I just don't see how!
Democrats continue to overstep their bounds and infringe on the individual's
need to be self-reliant. Their answer to everything is for the Federal Gov't to
solve the problem. However, the Republicans seem to talk about self-reliance
but don't tend to put their money where their mouth is.
Re: isrred | 6:43 p.m. Oct. 1, 2011 "Utah's Democrat in Congress
voted against the legislation that would have closed that plant. So your point
is...well, you don't have a point."The voters in South Carolina
have a point and they will express it at the ballot box in 2012. Democratic
strategist James Carville has just one word of advice for President Barack
Obama: Panic. Now why would he say a thing like that?
one old man | 4:50 p.m. Oct. 1, 2011Ogden, UT Years back it
was the John Birch Society. Please don't let that drive you out of the Church.
President Faust was a Democrat and there are many others. Anyone discussing
these things in Church meetings is disobeying the Church's positions on
After living in the East for some years, I saw the hazard of one party having an
unbalanced majority, and the resultant elimination of adequate checks and
balances. I admit that I am a Republican, but at the same time I see the hazards
of one party being able to have its own way no matter what. I
welcome the efforts of the Democratic Party to expand their numbers with the
hope that a more even balance of power will help to eliminate the danger of
having too much power in any one political party, regardless of whether that
party be Democrat or Republican.
People need to remember that a political "party" is just that a party.
A party is not an ideology but a group of people. Some Republicans are
pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. Some Democrats are hawkish and pro-war.While I believe parties have their place, I vote for the person, not the
party. I have seen the more conservative candidate lose in Utah because of
party affiliation...that shows that people (at least in some areas) are not
really studying the candidates.
Aaron, have you ever heard of president Faust? He was a democrat must not a been
a good LDS person though. Your statements are over reaching and wrong. I'm a
republican but I vote democrat also. You can be from any party and be a member
of this church. Joseph Smith described God's characteristics of being liberal.
He gives freely to all. Close mindedness is a dangerous path to be on Aaron
Re: On the other hand Following your logic, no one can know what the
Mormon church believes until they join it. Similarly following this logic, I
would not be able to understand the Democratic party until I join it. That is
absurd. Are you saying I have misrepresented the Democratic party's views on big
government and creating a handout welfare dependent nation? I do know that the
LDS church has a lesson on self-reliance. The LDS church's welfare program
functions on the principle of developing self-reliance. That is definitely more
conservative than liberal, and more in-line with the principles valued by the
Republican party. "By their fruits ye shall know them."
There is definately room in the church for both Republicans and
Democrats...lighten up people. Our system is the best in the world...and debate
over issues is a good thing. Neither side is ever entirely correct.
Democratic LDS.....now there is an oxymoron!AbortionCommunismAl ShartonBig govtThe democratic party is
perfect for you ife the Govt is smarter about spending your money than you
are.........drink up obamaholics
To embrace democratic ideals soon we would have gays getting married in the
Re:RantbullyA study done by the University of Indiana, Center on
Philanthropy found that only 20% of money collected by churches goes to the
poor. The vast amount of money (tithing) collected by the LDS church doesn't go
to the poor either. The Church does not take a position on govt programs to aid
the poor, elderly, disabled and children and could never take care of the needs
of all those groups by itself. Churches existed before Social Security when
poverty rates were higher. In the late 1950s, the poverty rate for
all Americans was 22.4 percent, or 39.5 million individuals. These numbers
declined steadily throughout the 1960s, reaching a low of 11.1 percent, or 22.9
million individuals, in 1973. Over the next decade, the poverty rate fluctuated
between 11.1 and 12.6 percent, but it began to rise steadily again in 1980. By
1983, the number of poor individuals had risen to 15.2 percent. In 2010, 15.1
percent of all persons lived in poverty. Children represent a disproportionate
share of the poor in the United States.Democrats believe in self
reliance too and are emphasizing job creation.
TruthLook up the definition of truth.Utah desperately needs a
check on the Republican power structure. Power corrupts and absolute power
corrupts absolutely. You can quote me on that. If you do I will share a few more
of my gems of wisdom. Check out the movie "Matewan' and see if you see
unions the same way.
I wish the Democrats would stop trying to play up any links to the LDS Church.
The Church has strenously denounced claims of a unique link by Republicans. As
long as the Democrats try to play up special links they invite Republicans to do
the same and perpetuate the unneccesary linkage of politicis and religion.
It saddens me to say that high percentage of members of the LDS church I have
that have have known who said "I am joining the Democrat party" years
later said "I am leaving the church." It was almost always that the
issue (moral, social, fiscal, philosophical, the list goes on...) that made them
want to be a Democrat did not did not square with the teachings of the church.
To be fair, I also worry that some people on the conservative side may leave the
church over the issue of illegal immigration. Although, the church does side
with conservatives on much of the issue (securing the border and have orderly
immigration). There is some disagreement about what to do with current illegal
re:JohnPackLambert/SolutionsnotStones"Play up links"? Though the Church leadership has been clear that they do not endorse political
parties and both parties contain elements compatible with gospel principles a
majority in the Church don't seem to agree. We LDS Democrats are tired of
defending ourselves, tired of staying silent, and tired of hearing right-winged
politics preached over the pulpit and in classes. (including the chain e-mails
that is passed around ward members). If one just goes by the posts on this
board and other boards it appears Democrats are not welcomed by LDS members.
One ward we lived in (not Utah) a woman approached a member of the
Bishopric concerned about a certain car in the parking lot because it had a John
Kerry bumper sticker on it. A big reason people leave the Church is because
they are offended. What does religion offer? Too much of what we
see in the world are a bunch of hypocritical, judgemental, holier-than-thou
types. No wonder the youth of today are turning away from organized religion.
@RantBully, you're not following my logic, so I'll rephrase the analogy. Just
as I wouldn't expect someone opposed to Mormonism to offer a view of the Church
that I would consider fair, I don't expect a Republican to offer a fair view of
the Democratic Party. Claiming that Democrats believe in creating "a
handout welfare dependent nation" is like claiming that Mormons believe in
hating gays, worshipping Joseph Smith, or bolstering membership numbers by
baptizing dead people. You and I know that Mormons don't believe these things,
but outside observers with an ax to grind often manage to identify such things
among the "fruits" of Mormonism.@John Pack Lambert, the
Church has indeed clearly stated that it is not affiliated with any political
party. But several Republican members of the church promote the notion that one
cannot be both a Democrat and a good Mormon (witness many of the comments here).
Elder Marlin K. Jensen, representing the Church in a 1998 interview with the
Salt Lake Tribune, tried to put this falsehood to rest, but it persists. Utah's
Democratic Party is not trying to link itself to the Church per se but rather to
counter this notion.
I have always tried to vote for the person, not the party. The church doesn't
endorse political parties, but says that we should: "vote for the
candidates who most represent the teachings and beliefs of the church". If
that is a democrat, fine, but I don't find myself agreeing that many democrats
at the top of the party come anywhere close to representing church beliefs. Do
LDS members in the democratic party really believe that Obama represents church
beliefs?? Unfortunately, a vote for any democrat means an endorsement of
democratic leadership, which I cannot in good conscience do. While both parties
contain elements compatible with the gospel, my personal belief is that the
current democratic party platform is directly in conflict with several basic
gospel principles. I agree, however, that members shouldn't assume that
everyone is republican, and shouldn't bring it to church. Everyone has their
free agency, and will be judged by God for their choices, not by me.
A liberal in the classical sense, and that which has been mentioned as being
Joseph Smith's characterization of our God, and which is still understood in
some places in Europe, is far different than progressives in this country, who
have like the definition of "marriage" have trashed the definition in
its real meaning.A liberal in the classical sense believes in the
primacy of the individual and his freedom. It is from weakness that people
reach for dictators and concentrated power (central planning, regulation,
distributed scarcity, and a federal government that is center-stage vs the
wings) and weakness does not equate with individual freedom and respect for
personal property, none of which the progressives, cloaking themselves as
liberals, have any affinity.The Democratic party is the home of
every single-issue, de-humanizing political activist strain known to man - PETA,
who champions sharks biting humans as payback, environmentalist who would have
man living in caves and worshipping Gaia, welfare systems that are uncharitable,
acceptance of laws and ethics that would counter anything Captain Moroni stood
for in protecting our families and worship, eugenicists, cloning humankind,
income redistribution, labor croneyism - no, cannot identify one single Dem
initiative worth support.
RantBullyRemember self reliance is only a part of the LDS-Christian
doctrine on welfare. Helping those who cannot help themselves is also a required
element which you comment did not address (Giving of time, talents, and means,
is vital). I think your analogy is only applicable to a narrow aspect of social
programs and issues. Certainly, Christian doctrine has room to be kind and
helpful to all and looks at every person individually. (which flies in stark
opposition to most of the recent Republican views)That is why so
many LDS and other Christians are flocking in large numbers to the Democrat
platform. You do not have to support abortion or unions in order to support the
best candidate for office. All to often in Utah the lesser person hides behind
party rhetoric to gain favor when the more moral, the more qualified person, the
person who actually works to solve issues, is in plain sight(like Matheson). I for one see the tide turning back to the Dems with LDS voters.(as most
LDS were Dems in the into the 1960s) The more fanatical the one side gets the
more appealing the other side becomes.
The burden of citizenship in a civilized society comes with a price. That price
requires us all to, not only to listen to the words of politicians, but to set
our own hands to work for the good and welfare of each other. That
burden may be too high a price for most. In my experience, the more I work for
the good of myself and my neighbor, I see the two as inseparable. I find joy in
the service and greater joy when that service does some good. I find that most
who oppose social programs have never served those in need. I for
one, see the tremendous burden before us. When I am serving the needy, I see the
imperative need for intelligent compassionate leaders who are wise enough and
caring enough to listen to all views and choose a wise course. That is why I see
much more value for society in supporting Dems like Matheson. The
Citizen, especially the Christian citizen, (myself included) needs to listen to
the TV less, volunteer with the needy more, take more time to learn about
issues. After that, vote your conscience. Sadly, that price is too high for
The Saints who were driven to the Salt Lake Valley in large measure by their
political opponents were "entitled" only to cold, harsh winters,
hostile natives, frightfully arid land, and other such daunting conditions which
required a lot of hard work, sacrifice, and even more faith to overcome. They
didn't insist on an eight-hour day or the "right" to abort their
children, nor did they demand that others in their group support them
financially or that everyone should have absolutely equal economic status. They
worked hard and voluntarily helped others so as to "abase the rich and
exalt the poor" by the sweat of their brows and not by government edict.
They understood very well the "wagon principle": If everyone climbs
onto the wagon, who is left to pull it? I ask which political party most nearly
resembles that philosophy? I also ask why ANY fetus should be killed if it's
birth will not harm the life of the mother?
Political topics usually generate a lot of emotional dialogue. I see very few
friendly conversations on this topic, but rather a lot of fingering pointing and
arguments back and forth.No, the LDS church doesn't endorse a
political party, but rather speaks out on issues and not candidates.Personally, I may lean towards many Republican platforms, but I do not believe
that either of the two main political parties have all of the answers and that
in general, too many in both parties are corrupt and only give lip service to
their constituents long enough to be re-elected. The day we get a bi-partisan,
nearly unanimous vote on laws that will subject government to the same
regulations placed upon the American people at large, then I will regard
government leaders - from either party, with more trust and appreciation.
Both parties support issues that dont align with LDS values i.e. Democrats:
abortion, pro-homosexuality Republicans: immigration, anti-welfare. The LDS
Church has always supported a strong two party system and there have been and
are LDS General Authorities that are Democrats i.e. President Faust (one of the
greatest men to ever walk the planet), and Elder Jensen. I am a
Republican but I have felt lately that the Republican Party is becoming to right
wing extremist for my taste. If a republican doesnt support these extreme views
they are branded RINOs. I think if LDS people put aside their preconceived
notions that all democrats are bad they would realize that the Democratic Party
has a lot in common with the LDS faith. Just because you are a
Republican does not mean that you have to agree with everything the Republican
Party does and vice versa. You can be a Democrat and be a faithful Mormon
Parties are worthless. They never follow the constitution and they always
compromise which is a breeding ground for loss of freedom. Compromise counquered
Germany in the 1930's.
I blog about politics and religion. I find neither party satisfactory. For me it
is no longer a choice between two polar extremes offered by Democrats and
Republicans. I'll look for the candidates who come closest to my libertarian
tendencies, recognizing that threading the needle with the best candidate
regardless of party affiliation is the only way to go as long as two political
parties dominate the landscape. I'm more interested in principles than parties.
FDRFan says, " President Faust was a Democrat and there are many others.
Anyone discussing these things in Church meetings is disobeying the Church's
positions on neutrality."Different Democratic Party back then
and no where, in any manual, does it say that things political are not to be
discussed in the church. Maybe you should go listen to Pres McKay's talks in the
1966 Gen Conferences. Truth be told, I don't believe the "old
man" and his story of what happened in his group.As for the cry
about rape and health of the mother and abortion. Less that 1% of all abortions
performed in the US are for rape, incest or the health of the mother. Less than
1%! So really, what's the reason for abortion? To kill an innocent human being
because of selfishness.Pres Uchtdorf put an end to the philosophy of
"give me" last night. I'm sure the uber-Progressive Dems on these
pages will somehow spin that one away and say the policy of redistribution of
wealth is okay.The church teaches self-reliance. Democrats want
reliance on the government so they can control everyone and have power. That
plan was rejected, remember?
Democrat stated: "A party is not an ideology but a group of people."
Not true. Parties express their ideologies in national platforms (available
on-line).I'm fine with friends, family, and fellow LDS who are
Democrats. I can't be. The ideology is too big a hurdle.Republicans
want freedom to: succeed or fail on your own merits, speak openly
about God, use arms, if necessary, to protect family, retain what
they earn, exercise generosity by choice instead of coersion, etcDemocrats want freedom to: have a desirable lifestyle without
effort, use obscenity/vulgarity in inappropriate times/places, let
government manage their health care, marry within their same gender,
abort children for convenience, commit major crimes without major
consequence, reward people based on race/gender, etcTo
me, Republicans want each person to be free to become the best he can be;
Democrates want each person to be free to become as vile as he chooses.
Republicans perceive us as human beings with infinite potential. Democrats see
us as just another form of animal life subject to our basest instincts.Democrats view of man is condescending at best, thinking government needs to
control our lives.I can't be Democrat.
Looking through the comments, it becomes crystal clear that there won't be much
of a change in the ranks of the Republicans or the Democrats, in spite of this
campaign. The things that make you whatever you are, seem to keep you whatever
you are. The only real place I see where there might be some ability to have an
influence would be in the youth of our country...and as the comments note and as
is well known, the Democrats have been fighting since Roe v.Wade for the right
to eliminate over 1 million of those potential voters every year...might not be
Re: "'As the Republican Party becomes more closed and alienating . . . the
Utah Democratic Party is really a great home for LDS people,' Dabakis
said."This quote is a perfect illustration that the Utah
Democratic Party is NOT a great home for Utah LDS -- dishonest demagoguery can
never form the basis for a great political home.Not that dishonest
demagoguery is limited to Democrats -- it's the same reason I've never joined
with Republicans or Libertarians, either.The only valid basis for a
great political home is truth. Which is, unfortunately, increasingly rare in
all parties.I once heard Stew Udall explain that we LDS [well, he
was barely LDS] had to accept, though not necessarily embrace, a Democrat
political platform that was alien, in most respects to our nature and beliefs --
or lose the election.At least that was an honest expression of his
somewhat sophomoric opinion.But, this new Harry Reid-esque
description of a Mormon home among today's radically anti-decency,
anti-prosperity, anti-American Democrats is just -- dishonest.No one
is really Democrat because they're Mormon.
Youre ALL wrong.I believe that devout LDS cant be Democrats OR a
Republicans.LDS doctrine condemns using force to elicit righteous
behavior. Satan advocated using force. Both parties believe in using FORCE to
accomplish their aims. Democrats use force, for example, to make us
be charitable. Forcing people to be charitable is contrary to the Gospel and
consistent with Satans Plan.Republicans promote force to prevent
sin/vice. They advocate government force to keep people from gambling, smoking
pot, shopping on Sundays, engaging in non-marital sex (prostitution,
homosexuality, adultery, etc), etc Laws that punish objective harm to others
(murder, rape, robbery, fraud, etc) are in complete harmony with the Gospel.
Vices dont cause objective harm to others. DUIs harm others and should be
illegal, but drinking, itself, doesnt. Vices only objectively harm the
individual doing it or the harm is subjective (sinshopping on Sundays). I believe that libertarianism is the ONLY political philosophy
consistent with the Gospel. It allows people to act as righteously as they
choose as long as no objective harm/force is imposed on others. All other
political philosophies believe in using force the enforce righteousness.
The current two party system is like going to the grocery store, and getting a
choice to buy grocery cart A or grocery cart B, both of which have already been
filled for you. You may like some items in both cart A and cart B, but you may
detest others. You may like the avocados in cart A, but if you buy cart A, you
also get peanut butter. The two party system says if you like avocados, then
you must also like peanut butter.None of us would stand for grocery
stores limiting our choices this way, but for some reason a lot of us have
become comfortable with the same limits in politics. If I choose political
party A, then my stance on foreign policy, gun rights, gay marriage, the death
penalty, abortion, is chosen for me, even none of these issues are related to
each other.This is why I could never throw my support behind either
party in a two party system. The system itself is what limits your freedom to
It doesn't take a genius to realize that the more conservative leaning of most
members of the Church would be more in line with the republicans.Quit
whining democrats and know that your platform just doesn't cut it with most
There have been, and there are currently, many members of the Church leadership
who are democrats.The Church has repeatedly made it clear that
faithful members of the Church come from across the political spectrum. (See
"The Mormon Ethic of Civility" on the Church's website.) The Brethren
have repeatedly said that the Church has--and NEEDS--a variety of political
positions among its membership.Some people here have said "I
don't see how you can be Mormon and a democrat."I don't see how
who can hold that position and be a good Mormon.
If Mormons don't want to be Democrats, the Democrats have no one to blame but
themselves. They have made it clear for MANY years that if you are pro-life, if
you are for traditional family values, etc., you are NOT welcome in their party.
There were many Mormons who came from labor backgrounds and might have been
Democrats, but they were driven out by the Democrat Party.Now the
Democrats have moved so far to the left that I don't see how ANY committed
member of the Church could be a Democrat. There are some who manage to
rationalize it, but it is a BIG mass of rationalization. LDS people just can't
support most of the values the Democrats espouse.If anyone wants to
read the new "Daughters of my Kingdom" which was just put out by the
First Presidency, it is not difficult to discern that the Church is counseling
us against principles supporting big government programs, etc. We are counciled
to be self reliant and NOT to be involved with (Democrat supported)government
programs that take away that self reliance.Most members easily
discern this. Some, unfortunately, still don't get it.
The DNC promotes helping our fellow being. They want to cloth the naked, feed
the poor and destitute, and help the needy. They also want to respect the agency
of people even if some may use it for immorality.It's true that the
GOP focuses on self-reliance; I hear they want to teach a man to fish instead of
giving him a fish, but in reality the GOP continues to oppose giving the poor
the tools to rise above poverty.
Dear @Charles: You are SO on target. Thanks for your comments.
one old manglad you are happy on Sunday afternoons.
I'm both a Mormon and a Democrat and want to clear something up -- Democrats do
not believe in abortion. Nobody does. Many Democrats are pro-life. Other
Democrats are Pro-Choice -- meaning that they believe a woman has a right to
choose what she does with her body. Politics is not so simple that a person
should or can believe in every last thing that the majority in their party
believe in. I don't believe in abortion but I also don't believe that we or
anyone else should legislate morality. I honestly struggle going to church
because of the narrow mindedness of the fellow members of my ward. The Prophet
has never said we should all be Republican, but I often feel at church as if I'm
at a Hannity/Limbaugh rally. After George W. Bush was reelected I actually had
someone in a lesson say she was thankful that we elected an honest, Christian
man to be President. I seriously almost laughed out loud. I actually voted for
Bush in that election, only because I felt he was the lesser of two evils. All
I'm saying is wake up and open your mind.
Re SolutionsNotStones: I think the people joining the Democratic Party and
taking the course you described usually are people living in Utah with a
disposition toward being a rebel. But remember, there are a lot of us life-long
Democrats here in Utah who come from a long Democratic tradition. In my growing
up years in Utah County, we had at various times a legislator, state senator and
Congressman who were all Democrats. They were all super active Mormons and it
never occured to them or me that there was anything wierd about that. I don't
even need to mention Heber J. Grant, James E. Faust or Marlin K. Jensen (all top
notch Democrats and top notch Mormons).I also believe one can be a
good Republican and Mormon and steer away from arguments I hear often from
liberals that God somehow favors liberal causes. Anytime someone tries to sell
a product or get you to vote a certain way because "the Church" is for
it, I say run!
To all those who keep mentioning abortion: the Utah County Democratic Party has
had a pro-life platform for many, many years. Do people actually know anything
about their local parties and candidates? I have voted for many Republicans
over the years but I wonder if my GOP neighbors are giving my party's candidates
the same attention I am giving theirs. It seems that New Jersey and
Massachussetts (Christie, Romney, Brown) give GOP candidates more chances than
Utah and Idaho give Democrats. Our troops and forbears fought for
our right to vote. That right doesn't mean much if we don't study the
Thomas Paine: you're right. The GOP says "Teach a man to fish." Then
they privatize all the fishing holes. They say "Pull yourself up by your
bootstraps" to people who don't have any boots.Pres. Uchtdorf's
talk last night was not partisan in the least: it laid out the principle of
self-reliance, but also had extremely strong words for those who refuse to help
the poor. In a recent conference Pres. Uchtdorf also said "It is unworthy
of us as Christians to blame those who suffer for their suffering."The GOP in Utah uses abortion as a wedge issue to fleece Utahns. The GOP
leader of the senate gets busted for DUI? All they have to say to retain power
is "abortion!" The GOP leader of the house gets busted for hottubbing
nude with a minor? All they have to say to retain power is "abortion!"
The governor looks the other way while $13m is given away to a losing bidder for
a contract? "Abortion!"Let me ask you this: when was the
last time abortion law in Utah changed? How long will you cling to this issue
while the GOP rifles through your pockets, Utah?
Leave religion out of this. In the state of utah it has already caused a lot of
damage. Don't mormons understand boundries?
@mightymite "Don't mormons understand boundries?"Yeah, that's why were even in Utah. Learn your history. Having said that, a
good member of the church will shun both political parties...the way George
Washington warned us to.
I think that all of the rhetoric here will be of little consequence when we
stand before the Judgment Bar and are asked the question - well how did you
treat your neighbor (regardless of whether they were gay or not), (whether they
supported abortion or not), (whether they were Democrats or not), and I suspect
that many of us will be found wanting.
@Christy, it's always a pleasure to read your comments. They are well thought
out, fact-based, and not nonsensical angry rantings like some on these postings.
I agree no one is pro-abortion. Do we really want government telling a woman
what to do with her body: delivering the baby of a rapist or carrying an
incestuous child? Pro-choice just puts the choice to the woman and her body.
The good thing about the Democratic Party is that there are no purity tests like
the Tea Party. You can have the LDS view of abortion and be in the party
without threat of reprisal or dismissal.@one old man: I feel your
pain. I am a liberal LDS, and I had a few church meetings where mindless hate
and recycling of Limbaugh would turn up. I left those meetings, too. Then I
thought to myself, this religion deserves better. I now make it a point to
speak up and counter this mindless recycling of hate and to tell them it might
be their point-of-view, but not that of the first presidency. The LDS need good
people like you--come back please, and be heard.
Christy Wrote:"Nobody is pro-abortion. 'Supporting choice' is
exactly, precisely what this Democrat, and many others I know, are for"But what is the choice?Abortion!So you MUST
support abortion, you must be PRO-abortion.Todays democratic party
is nothing like old party, or are they?It was southern democrats
that supported slavery, the ultimate dream and ends of the
progressive demcratic party is complete BIG government control of entire
poeples.It was a demcratic president that put indians on
resevations.It democratic policy of manifest destiney that lead to
western expansion and war with mexico,It was democrat persident that
got into WW1, put germans into camps, yused force goverment to arrest hundreds
of newspapermen and shut down newpapers, REsegregated the army.It
was anther democrat president, the interned japanese, took big government
control of companies, jailed people if they didn't adhere to his programs like
the blue eagle, caused the depression to becomethe great de[pression,a democrat president used the atomic bomb,democrats support BIG
government,it is a democrats now that support or looktheother way of
current union greedbased thuggery and misbehaviorscurrent platforms,
values and activities of demcrats opposes LDS teachings.
Re@CharlesFrom the LDS Church restatement on political NEUTRALITY:"The Elected officials who are Latter-day Saints make their own
decisions and may not necessarily be in agreement with one another or even with
a publicly stated Church position. While the Church may communicate its views to
them, as it may to any other elected official, it recognizes that these
officials still must make their own choices based on their best judgment and
with consideration of the constituencies whom they were elected to
represent.""Request candidates for office not to imply
that their candidacy or platforms are endorsed by the Church.""General Authorities and general officers of the Church and their spouses
and other ecclesiastical leaders serving full-time should not personally
participate in political campaigns, including promoting candidates, fundraising,
speaking in behalf of or otherwise endorsing candidates, and making financial
contributions."It is very clear what the Church position is on
political neutrality. It is a worldwide church, operating among very diverse
people and countries. Bringing political discussions into Church is a sure way
to exclude the presence of the Spirit. You are dead wrong on this issue.
I work in a place that is 100% LDS (I am LDS) and almost all are Republicans. I
have what would be considered to be liberal views, but I feel they are aligned
with LDS doctrine. I am very careful not talk about my political views because
I feel that my progression in my job would be at risk and I would be branded a
Liberal. So, I am a closet independent/liberal. Its unfortunate that it has to
be this way.
I don't see why some people insist on getting fired up when the State Democratic
Party seeks to get more LDS to consider joining their party or at least voting
Democratic.The First Presidency issues a political neutrality
statement before every election and encourages participation in government
matters in a respectful way. Those who take it upon themselves to "steady
the Arc" from the church leaders by pushing any other idea than this do a
great disservice to the LDS Faith.I am liberal/progressive because
of my faith, but I don't make any claims that a conservative can't be a good
LDS. There are some things about the Republican Party I admire, but it has
become so far right and the party of Wall Street (the money changers of old)
that I only support a few of the Republican candidates now.It is
alright to have whatever political ideology you want, but when it is used to try
and push that anyone is less of a person, less of a church member, less
deserving of blessings, etc., it becomes divisive vitriol that should not be
associated with the church. Every member should stand up against such nonsense.
I consider myself conservative and I belong to a labor union. Many on here
misrepresent the Democratic party. I don't believe all Democrats want is big
gov't and a welfare state. That is a broad generalization and I reject that. To
many conservatives misrepresent self reliance. We have an obligation to help
the poor and needy regardless of their circumstances or how they ended up in
need. The main issue I have with the extremist's in the Republican party is
they moralize to much and are way to judgemental of others. Petty partisan
politics is unworthy of faithful LDS. Let people vote their conscience. I
could care less how someone votes. Freedom to vote is is a great privilege.
Has anyone noticed how voting percentages have dropped in Utah. I think extreme
partisanship has a lot to do with it.
Well, if your current presidential choice speaks for your party, then no thank
First on the agenda to reclaim the Democratic from the left is to reauthorize
the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom. I hope this organization
leads out in this effort.
After reading a vast number of the posts my reasons for leaving the Republican
party after 50 years of voting Republican is validated once again! What is
sadly amusing is that the radical right wing thinking that is prevelant in the
party now is the very type of thinking that will not allow a moderate, practical
and electable candidate to get the nomination in 2012, thus ensureing four more
years for Obama! Again the main stream Republican party heads realize this but
are helpless to stop the radical swing. The Obama camp is salivating, realizing
the Southern Evangelical block will not allow Romney or Huntsman to become the
candidate, leaving Perry or who ever.
How can any Utah Republicans on this board have the AUDACITY to say democrats
can't be good Mormons because of this or that issue, when just this year, at the
Utah State Republican Convention, the Utah GOP voted overwhelmingly to repeal
the immigration plan that the Church came out in support of, repeatedly? The
Church's position on HB 116 could not have been clearer, and yet the GOP
completely and forcefully rejected it.You really think the GOP has a
monopoly on Mormon-friendly positions?In Utah, it seems to be quite
the opposite: if there's ever a question as to whether to follow the Brethren or
the GOP, Utahns seem to pick the GOP.
to sandee | 12:23 p.m. Oct. 2, 2011 MELFA, VA Well, if your current
presidential choice speaks for your party, then no thank you!!! -----------------------Well if the just-prior president, and the
far right wing extremists running for president, speak for the Republicans then
a HUGE no thank you.For the reccord, my husband and I are registered
Republican. We did not not register as Republicans because we believe in the
extremism and signs of fascism that the party is espousing now. We registered
as Republicans to try to be part of the numbers necessary to take the party back
from the far right extremist radicals who hijacked it to the far right fringes
in the 1990s. As Senator Barry Goldwater ("Mr. Conservative" -- the
man who defined conservatism) once said to the far right wing radicals:
"Do not associate my name with anything you do. You are extremists, and
you've hurt the Republican party much more than the Democrats have." He
was right. Sadly, true conservatives are now called RINOs, and the true RINOs
(the ones who inhabit the far right fringes) mis-identify themselves as
conservatives. "Conservative" is another word that is being misdefined
Gallups survey found that 7% of LDS members are liberal, 1% very liberal. It
also found that 79% of LDS members in the US are active and 20% of inactive LDS
members are liberal. Run those numbers and you get that half of LDS liberals are
inactive. There is definitely some force making LDS liberals feel ostracized in
their own churches. The church may be neutral but it's members sure aren't. I've
been told I needed to repent over political views by almost half a dozen
different people (and in person, this isn't just online) or that I need to see
the bishop, or that it'd be better if I were following the prophet (I don't
remember when President Monson took a position against obamacare).
----- This breaks no rules. Post it!@Wastingtime: Nothing you posted
says that things political can't be discussed at church. Many political
positions overlap with gospel principles and doctrine. If something is deemed a
political position we are supposed to stand up and say "Nope, we can't talk
about that topic. Someone might be offended and it's political so it's not
discussed in church!"?Sorry, but I'll stick with the brethren
who speak out on many topics that are deemed politics. Did you read the 1966
addresses by Pres McKay and Pres Benson in Conference FROM THE PULPIT?Ever read any talks by Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and others that are
political in nature in church and at conference?Political neutrality
from the church means that they won't endorse a candidate or political party.
Pretty simple to understand the difference.@RedneckLefty: did you
hear Pres Uchtdorf say people should be FORCED through the government to help
the poor? Nope. In fact you heard the contrary. It's a choice. It's our
responsibility but there is no force.Why you on the Left can't
understand the difference is astounding. You claim choice for abortion but
@Charles: I didn't hear Pres. Uchtdorf say anything at all about politics or tax
@CharlesJoseph Smith on egalitarianism,"The city
(Nauvoo)was meant to be not just a gathering place but an ideal society. One
Scripture describes it this way: "And the Lord called his people Zion,
because they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and
there was no poor among them." It was to be a unified, egalitarian,
righteous society. To deal with the poor, everyone who came to the
city was to consecrate everything - all of their property - to the bishop of the
church, who in return would deed back to them properties sufficient for their
needs. It was an equalization program.In fact, the word
"equal" has a fairly strong place in Joseph Smith's revelations. For
example: "That you may be equal in the bonds of heavenly things, yea, and
earthly things also, for the obtaining of heavenly things. For if you are not
equal in earthly things ye cannot be equal in obtaining heavenly things."
At another point, he made the drastic statement that inequality was a sign that
the whole world lay in sin. These Cities of Zion were to create unified,
egalitarian societies and eventually fill up the world."(Richard
To be told that you can only be a good member of the LDS church if you are a
Republican is pure rubbish. No member of the church should have to choose a
political party based on what Republicans have to say. Thank goodness this
nonsense is mostly only alive and well in Utah. The rest of us in other states
and countries believe what the Presidency of the church tells us that the church
is bipartisan and our free agency is still alive and well even in how we choose
to vote. My LDS parents were some of the most conservative people you would
ever meet, they would never vote for a Rpublican, they considered the party the
party of the Rich man with out any consideration for the middle class. I am an
independent voter not to be sucked in by the propaganda of either party.
Conservative on some issues and liberal on others. And, never listen to the
political commentators on either side, I research the issues for myself.
@Christy What do unions have to do with single moms on welfare? As for abortions being legal for 40 yrs, do you think that makes it right?
For generations discrimination based on gender, race and religion was legal too.
Based on your stated opinion you must have believed it was okay because it was
legal. In the 40 yrs of Roe v Wade, over 40 million American lives
have been snuffed out because of "choice" with no regard to their
"choice". 40 million lives. That's more than the combined population
of Canada and Australia. That's many times more lives than were lost in every
war or battle that our country has been involved in. Who knows if
one of those aborted people would have grown up to find a vaccine for Breast and
Cervical Cancer or HIV, been a great humanitarian, or and inspiring inventor,
writer or artist.
@CharlesIt's amusing that you need to go back nearly 50 years to find an
example to support your thesis. Could it be perhaps that times have changed and
we are a global church now, mistakes were made in the past (I have never heard a
prophet proclaim himself perfect) or whatever, but nothing makes the spirit go
"poof" away quicker than when somebody makes a political comment in a
meeting, and the Brotheren do not want this. PS - Blacks have the priesthood
@Charles#1 What was the context of McKay and Benson's comments? They were
clearly referring to Communist countries at the time.From Dallin H. Oaks:
"In addition to the cleansing effect of the Atonement, God has given
us agencythe power to choose between good (the path of life) and evil (the path
of spiritual death and destruction [see 2 Ne. 2:27; Moses 4:3]). Although the
conditions of mortality can limit our FREEDOM (such as by restricting our
mobility or our power to act on certain options), when we have reached the age
or condition of accountability (see Moro. 8:512; D&C 68:27; D&C 101:78)
NO MORTAL or spiritual power can deprive us of our AGENCY." #2
The Church handbook says when deciding what welfare assistance to give, the
Bishop determines whether members are receiving assistance from govt. or other
sources. Bishops should be careful not to duplicate welfare assistance. #3 Teaching lessons about self-reliance and charity are entirely
appropriate at church. But I've yet to see a church manual that teaches govt.
social safety programs are evil. #4 Democrats believe in
self-reliance AND helping others through charity AND govt.
I see red politics is alive and well in Utah, You are either with us or against
us and neither the twain shall meet.Utahans must be so happy to have
the tea party to back them and their ideals up.
saddens me to see our government in such a turmoil.we all have our free
agency. i just do not understand how members of the LDS faith can be democrat
with what the democrat party stands for.the proof is in our president
right now. in my local paper there is a small article about the temples
announced on saturday. right next to that article 'obama wants only military
leadership to support gay rights and gay military'. this is sad and scary. satan is glossing over the truth and confusing many in this world.for me
and my home we will serve the Lord. Live as we need to live to reach the
celestial kingdom. i will vote for whom i feel is right for the position.
yes, i have already made up my mind. our country NEEDS stronger family focused
RE: Wastintime"And the Lord called his people Zion, because
they were of one heart and one mind, and dwelt in righteousness; and there was
no poor among them."NOTHING "egalitarian" there. people aren't equal, they're not equal in physically,
spiritally, mentally, in work ethic, or any kind of ethic, or morally, not in education or knowledge, they're not equal in
talents, skills, and abilities,and while there may be no poor, it
DOESN'T say there are not any rich.children are not equal to the
parent.The LDS believe strongly in self reliance, hard work,
personal charity, freedom to prosper and pursue ones own happiness,setting aside the moral arguments, This is why the socialist
democratic party will never have much success among the LDS, they
don't believe in government compelled equality, government based charity, big
government control of everyone and everything, nor dependence on big
governement for almost anything and everything.The LDS church
believe in teaching people correct principles and letting the people govern
themselves,this is something the left's strongly against, the left believes the people CAN'T govern themselves, "elites"
should decide what is best for everyone, no values can be taught, truth is
Wastintime From Dallin H. Oaks: "In addition to the cleansing
effect of the Atonement, God has given us agencythe power to choose between good
(the path of life) and evil (the path of spiritual death and destruction [see 2
Ne. 2:27; Moses 4:3]). Although the conditions of mortality can limit our
FREEDOM (such as by restricting our mobility or our power to act on certain
options), when we have reached the age or condition of accountability (see Moro.
8:512; D&C 68:27; D&C 101:78) NO MORTAL or spiritual power can deprive
us of our AGENCY." LDS4Sorry, but Agency CAN be taken
away. Consider the following (I have SEVERAL others, but space is limitted)
-"To deprive an intelligent human being of his free agency is
to commit the crime of the ages. . . . So fundamental in man's eternal progress
is his inherent right to choose, that the Lord would defend it even at the price
of war." (David O. McKay, General Conference, 1942)"Each
of these systems (Communism and Fascism) destroys liberty, wipes out free
institutions, blots out free agency, ."(MESSAGE OF THE FIRST PRESIDENCY,
And what does the Republican Party stand for?Anti-civil rightsAnti-immigrationAnti-choiceAnti-educationAnti-artsAnti-environmentAnti-unionAnti-Muslim, Mexican, Black, GayAnti-childPro-ChristianPro-whitePro-richPro-corporationPro-warPro-drillingPro-deregulationPro-torturePro-fetusNow watch me set my broad brush down.
Oatmeal,I agree with alot of what you said about a womens choice,
but I do also think when a women is married it know longer becomes the choice of
the women alone. It becomes a decision the husband and wife should consider and
decide together with direction from Heavenly Father. After all each of us are
Heavenly Fathers children and that includes those little ones not yet born.
@SLMGMaybe Australia is far enough away. My problems with members
telling me to repent over my views on gay marriage, abortion (different person),
just straight up being a democrat (a third person) were all cases at Penn state
of people telling me to repent over some political view.In Maryland
I had an institute teacher tell me that the Iraq war was a holy war of God's
against Islam and that if we didn't write letters to Congress urging them to
pass the "marriage amendment" then we'd be disobeying the prophet.
That was part of why I stopped going to institute.So it's not just
Utah (though all those people who said such things to me may have been utah
@ Christy Beaverton OR"Nobody is pro-abortion." Your ignorance is showing."Four Republican presidents have
presided over the nation during that time. Not one of them made it their mission
to undo Roe V. Wade. "Republican Presidents don't waste their
time trying to start a fight they know they cannot win.@ One Old Man
Ogden UT"Apparently no one here has noticed that the LDS
position on abortion is almost identical to that of the Democratic Party. The
Party supports abortion only in cases of incest, rape, or to save the mother's
life. So does the church."True but the Democrats also support
abortion in almost every other case, including partial birth abortion.@ TruthseekerHow do you deal with This passage:D&C
42:42 Thou shalt not be idle; for he that is idle shall not eat the bread nor
wear the garments of the laborer.All the Democrat social programs
violate this principle.
I know a young man who served a mission in Europe. They were baptizing a
communist and one missionary said; "I didn't know that we baptized
communists?"The mission president heard this and said;
"Well we baptize Democrats."That mission president was
later called into the quorums of the Seventy.Good luck finding a
current General Authority that is a Liberal.
@ Cowboy JoeYes, President Faust was a Democrat and so was my
Mother, but she repented and I suspect that it had been decades since President
Faust voted Democrat! The Democrat party has changed big time.@
Truthseeker"Democrats believe in self reliance too and are
emphasizing job creation. "Surely you jest. They have eyes and cannot
Pres McKay and Pres Benson misspoke. Dallin Oaks is correct:"Few concepts have more potential to mislead us than the idea that choice
or agency is an ultimate goal. For Latter-day Saints, this potential confusion
is partly a product of the fact that moral agency--the right to choose--is a
fundamental condition of mortal life. Without this precious gift of God, the
purpose of mortal life could not be realized. To secure our agency in mortality
we fought a mighty contest the book of Revelation calls a "war in
heaven." This premortal contest ended....But our war to secure
agency was won. The test in this postwar mortal estate is not to secure choice
but to use it--to choose good instead of evil so that we can achieve our eternal
goals. In mortality, choice is a method, not a goal.... If that
silly reasoning were valid, then the Lord, who gave us our agency, took it away
when he gave the Ten Commandments...It will not do to pretend that our agency
has been taken away when we are not free to exercise it without unwelcome
consequences."(Weightier Matters 1999)
The Rock: you need to education yourself a little more. Elder Marlin K. Jensen
was sent by the First Presidency in 1998 to sit for an interview in which he
described his own political alignment, as a Democrat, and to describe the desire
of the Brethren to see more political balance in Utah and among the Church.
Elder Jensen has also been the Church's spokesperson for several years on the
immigration issue--an issue on which the Utah GOP has rebelled outright against
the Church's position. Elder Steven E. Snow, a member of the Presidency of the
Seventy, was an attorney and outspoken environmental activist in Southern Utah
before being called as a General Authority. Elder Lowell M. Snow, who was just
released from the Second Quorum of the Seventy yesterday, is also a Democrat.
There are other examples of people of various political persuasions at all
levels of Church leadership.I am a proud Democrat and a proud
Mormon. I do not think that all Mormons should be Democrats, but I do think that
more political balance would benefit the state, the Church, and both parties.
Pres. Obama has pushed for greater postwar educational and medical support for
veterans. Are you going to tell soldiers returning from battle "Tough luck
about your leg, but pay for your medical needs yourself. Be
self-sufficient"?Pres. Clinton was the driving force behind the
welfare reforms of the 1990s that required greater self-sufficiency.How many people on these boards are in the middle class today because of
education paid for, in part, by Pell Grants and Federal Loans?How
many of the people on these boards are the children of fathers who got a
foothold in the middle class after WWII because of the GI Bill?How
many people on these boards benefit from roads, bridges, trails, canals,
watershed terraces, etc., built as part of FDR's WPA and CCC projects? (Hint:
ALL OF YOU.)These are all Democrat programs that promoted industry
and hard work. You do a disservice to history and your country to claim that
such programs were meant for "freeloaders."If you'd shown
up in So. Utah in the 1930s and called my grandpa and uncles
"freeloaders" while they were digging CCC ditches you'd have been
ridden out of town on a rail.
@furry,You might want to re-think your salacious and uncouth claims
regarding fascism - and go a bit deeper than your public school, or look
foolish. Fascism and Communism are both left-wing ideals - nothing to do with
If you are a faithful member of the LDS church and call yourself a Democrat, you
obviously don't know what the official party platform is for the Democrat party,
and by "Democrat party", I mean the true, officially stated goals of
the party on a national level. Go look it up and see if those are the things
Christ would condone.I'll give you a hint: they most certainly are
As a constitutional conservative, I'll just bite my rebel tongue- lest my good
friends at Deseret News feel obliged (and rightly so) to disallow my comments
today. However, let me ask a simple rhetorical question: "How's all that
hope and change workin' out for ya?"
So you want to be a conservative? Let me tell you something about your
heritage. When conservatives have had the choice between tax cuts
for the upper 1 percent of Americans and the middle class, they have chosen the
super rich. When conservatives have had a choice between tax cuts
for the super-rich and funding for the National Institutes of Health, which
supports the development of cures for cancer, heart disease, and other serious
illness, they have cut funding for the National Institutes of Health. When conservatives had the choice between tax cuts for the rich and body armor
for American troops dying in Iraq, they chose tax cuts. Every time
working people have asked for a raise in the minimum wage, conservatives have
opposed it, saying that wealthy businesses can't afford it--even as they gave
huge bonuses to their CEOs. When scientists discovered that research
on fetal tissue transplants and stem cells might help people with Alzheimer's
disease or quadriplegia overcome their illnesses, conservatives blocked it,
saying that God was against it. [continued]
"When Congress proposed a national holiday honoring Dr. Martin Luther King,
conservatives opposed it, calling him a communist on the floor of the United
States Senate. When people in wheelchairs, including World War II
veterans who lost their limbs defending our nation, asked for accessible
sidewalks and buildings, conservatives opposed it, saying it was too
expensive. When Franklin Roosevelt tried to create a safety net for
senior citizens, conservatives opposed it, saying we couldn't afford it, and
they have been trying to dismantle Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid ever
since. When Bill Clinton proposed a law that would allow any new
mother to take three months of unpaid leave from her job without fear of getting
fired for having a baby, conservatives opposed it, saying it would be too costly
for businesses. When half the people who were going bankrupt every
year were doing so after catastrophic illness that wiped out their life savings,
conservatives changed the law to make it impossible for them to file for
bankruptcy, so that credit card companies could expand their profits.So you want to be a conservative? That's your heritage. Stand tall."
@Dan Maloy,I just looked at the Democratic party website. I cannot
find anythig on their site that would be against the Church's stance. Maybe you
can enlighten me, and maybe provide a source?
Wow, what can I say? First off the Democratic party starting in the 1960's began
to go against most any Christian church teachings. I am Rebublican because I am
LDS. I won't mention any names here but one active LDS Utahn changed from
Republican to Democrat to run for a legislative seat and now is an elected
official as a Republican. When I asked him why he backed off his legislative
bid he told me that he a number of moral conservative Democrats in this state
told him that they were ostracized by state party leadership and that the
national party forces many things upon them. Those things such as abortion,
homosexual issues, forced charity among others. If the Democrats
want more LDS and more Christians in their ranks they should remove abortion on
demand out of their party platform, support for illegal aliens to be given the
right to vote. End their ravenous spending for forced charity. Change their
economic policies and stop supporting socialists for president. The list goes on
and on. As many former LDS Democrats have said to me "I didn't leave the
Democratic party. The Democratic party left me".
There is a big difference between supporting abortion and supporting choice and
the law of the land. There is a big difference in between supporting unions vs.
supporting huge corporations. These are just a couple of issues where I believe
Democrats are on the right side. Other areas are immigration, debt reduction,
social security, medicare, the enviornment, global warming, and public
transportation. Yes there is a big difference between supportting the middle
class and helping the poor vs. policies that support and favor the rich.
Actually the Democratic Party Platform is that abortion is to be on demand. No
reasons, just that a woman wants to terminate her pregnancy for no other reason.
The Church's official stance is abortion is only for rape, incest and the life
of the mother and/or the child will not survive birth. This is to be done only
upon careful consultation with their doctors and local Church leaders and
personal prayer. Then and ONLY then does the Church sanction abortion. I don't know where people get the notion that the offical Democratic Party's
stance on abortion is just like the Church's. Perhaps its that here in Utah, but
the DNC wants it available on demand. btw, in 1995 when state
attorney general Jan Grahm (a Democrat and Mormon by her own admission) was
asked by the Govenors office to defend a new law crimminalizing abortions other
for the above mentioned reason. She couldn't citing that it was separation of
Church and State because the law was exactly like the Church's stance. My
source? An assistant attorney general.If Democrats want to get more
LDS and more Christians to join their ranks, the party needs to change.
A political party is no more sacrosanct than the people who make it up. As a
Mormon and a Republican I have never presumed to tell anyone in the church which
party they must favor. It is not my place to do so.Meanwhile, if you
think being a Mormon Democrat is hard, try being a Unitarian Republican.
@one old man: those remarks by local church members that you mentioned were
clearly out of line. The LDS church is non-partisan. I hope you realize that
faults of other members should not affect your own decisions about God and
religion. We are all human and have flaws. I would hope those members who were
out of line would apologize to you, but don't let their flaws keep you away from
the Church of Jesus Christ. The same problems occured in Biblical times. A
good portion of the New Testament contains words from the Savior seking to
correct errors among his fellow Jews and then later the Apostles correcting
errors among the Christians.
I cannot find a current official statement on abortion for either the DNC or the
RNC, Abortion is apparently not an issue in this election, locally
or nationally.Why would a non-issue be a reason for any LDS person
to choose to register R rather than D, or vice versa?As a recovering
libertarian and now conservative, I don't understand why other LDS conservatives
want more government power invading individual lives and liberties. Parents make
decisions that affect the lives of their children all the time, including the
decision to create life in the first place, decisions to circumcise or not, to
pierce ears or not, to spanking or not, and other decisions I don't agree with.
That doesn't give us the right to use the force of law to force others to have
or raise children OUR way.I am fine with Roe vs Wade, and none of
the major parties seem interested in changing it.I see no reason why
good LDS cannot be good Democrats, and frankly, with the nonsense that my Utah
GOP has pulled recently, I have considered switching parties. Corruption is
sneaking into our GOP.
It is wrong to associate one political party or another with the LDS Church.
The Church is nonpartisan. But we should all carefully and prayerfully consider
which candidates, parties, and platforms we should support. The Church does
make official statements on some issues, such as abortion and gay marriage
(opposing the position of many Democrats) and on immigration (opposing the
position of many Republicans). And there is the Proclamation on the Family
which says: We call upon responsible citizens and officers of government
everywhere to promote those measures designed to maintain and strengthen the
family as the fundamental unit of society.
It comes down to this, folks: if you think your neighbor is unworthy of being a
member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints because his political
position is different from yours--whatever that position may be--then YOU are
the one who isn't being a good Mormon!
So we are drudging up platforms of 40 and 50 years ago to rationalize opposition
to a party of today. Should we also then hold the Republicans responsible for
their opposition to school integration in the south as well, along with an
integrated military? Common' folks. No person fully
embodies a parties platform, or at least they shouldn't because no party
embodies all Americans and their individual concerns. I am for responsible
capitalism, but also believe government plays a role in creating an
infrastructure for business to thrive. I am anti abortion, but only support the
death penalty in limited situations. I wish we would stop playing fancy with
words and realize we are paying for everyones health care now, what is in debate
is just how we do it.No party represents my beliefs completely.
Anyone who says they adhere to a "conservative" or a
"liberal" agendas are not being honest with themselves, because people
are multi-facited. No party is all good, nor is any party all
Somebody made a comment, above, about B. Obama - regarding an alleged racist
comment made during a church meeting...you know what, I would have got my phone
out and phoned the Police. I'm beginning to wonder if, for the future, a direct
question will need to be asked of all regarding church positions, worthiness,
etc. (this is merely MY opinion) - 'Are you a racist?'.Unions - a
significant number of businesses, if they had their way, would have us working
12 hours a day - with no time off for church! In Europe, the UK, I have about 5
or 6 weeks holidays and lots of benefits - you don't think the average business
owner woke up one day and thought, 'Hmmm, I'm going to change'...no. I don't
understand some people's negativity about unions - it does not make you a
Communist if you support unions...we have good lives because people before us
fought for what would be our rights...Democrats - a good comment
from a Democrat who was here in the UK - he reckoned that we are all Democrats
in Europe...even the most conservative of us are not as conservative as
I am LDS and appreciate the this organization. I'm glad I was able to hear
Senator Reid address our regional conference. I think we should speak civilly
to all and try to find more common ground so that we can preserve this nation
which has been under the protection of God since the beginning. Read 1 Nephi
13. If we treated each other with a little more compassion all of us would be
in the October conference in 1951, the First Presidency said: A
threat to our unity derives from unseemly personal antagonisms developed in
partisan political controversy. The Church, while reserving the right to
advocate principles of good government underlying equity, justice, and liberty,
the political integrity of officials, and the active participation of its
members, and the fulfillment of their obligations in civic affairs, exercises no
constraint on the freedom of individuals to make their own choices and
affiliations any man who makes representation to the contrary does so without
authority and justification in fact. (President Stephen L Richards, Conference
Report, October 1951, pp. 11415.)
President George Albert Smith observed, There is nothing in the world more
deleterious or harmful to the human family than hatred, prejudice, suspicion,
and the attitude that some people have toward their fellows, of unkindness. In
matters of politics, he warned, whenever your politics cause you to speak
unkindly of your brethren, know this, that you are upon dangerous ground.
Robert S. Wood. Instruments of the Lords Peace, Ensign, May 2006, 9395
President J. Reuben Clark "In our course under the new gospel
of interference with everything we do not like, we have gone forward ,,, as if
we possessed all the good of human government, of human economic concept, of
human comfort, and of human welfare, all of which we are to impose on the
balance of the world, a concept born of the grossest national egotismI believe American manhood is too valuable to be sacrificed on foreign soil
for foreign issues and causes. I believe that permanent peace will
never come into the world from the muzzle of a gun. Guns and bayonets will, in
the future as in the past, bring truces, long or short, but never peace that
endures.I believe that moral force is far more potent than physical
force in international relations. I believe that America should
again turn to the promotion of the peaceful adjustment of international
disputes, which will help us regain the measureless moral force we once
possessed, to the regeneration and salvation of the world. We now speak with the
strong arm of physical force only; we have no moral force left
To all those republicans who say they are so concerned about the unborn child,
why do they not care about that child after he is born? Republicans
continuously vote against feeding, sheltering and educating that child when the
parents are too poor to do so. To those who look at a homeless person and say
it is their fault, what about their children? Is it their fault, too? I
believe in teaching self reliance, but in the meantime, let's take care of the
children, the elderly, and the poor. I am a democrat because I am a Mormon.
I think the scriptures say it all; in Alma 7:20 in the Book of Mormon it says
very plainly that the Lord is a conservative.Alma 7:20. I perceive
that it has been made known unto you, by the testimony of his word, that he
cannot awalk in crooked paths; neither doth he vary from that which he hath
said; neither hath he a shadow of turning from the right to the left, or from
that which is right to that which is wrong; therefore, his course is one eternal
BlueDevil,"Should we also then hold the Republicans responsible
for their opposition to school integration in the south as well?"You've got your parties mixed up. Democrats opposed school integration.
Republicans (as in Dwight Eisenhower) sent in federal troops to bring them in
line.Republicans were nearly unanimous in supporting the Civil
Rights Act and Voting Rights Act in '64 and '65. Democrats, less so.
"When half the people who were going bankrupt every year were doing so
after catastrophic illness that wiped out their life savings, conservatives
changed the law to make it impossible for them to file for bankruptcy, so that
credit card companies could expand their profits."I give up.
Liberal ignorance is just too thick.Do you people ever bother in the
slightest to get the actual facts?
"There is a big difference between supporting abortion and supporting
choice and the law of the land."Tell me -- are you in favor of
people having the choice to discriminate? To fire someone for joining a union?
To pollute?No? Then you're not in favor of "choice," per
se. You're in favor of having the choice to do something deeply wrong that you
want to do anyway."There is a big difference in between
supporting unions vs. supporting huge corporations."Sure. One
is an organization that can be prosecuted under antitrust laws if it operates as
a cartel, colluding with others to jack up the price of what it supplies by
artificially restricting the supply. The other one *is* a cartel, and will beat
people up if they try to operate outside it.
The ProudDuck - interesting info, so I looked into it a little deeper. The
numbers are even more interesting when looked at by region, which really tells
the story behind them.The original House version:Southern
Democrats: 787 (7%93%)Southern Republicans: 010 (0%100%)Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94%6%)Northern Republicans: 138-24
(85%15%)The Senate version:Southern Democrats: 120
(5%95%)Southern Republicans: 01 (0%100%)Northern Democrats:
45-1 (98%2%)Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84%16%)As it turns
out, it was more a southern versus northern thing instead of a democrat versus
republican issue. It also shows that back then, people voted by issue rather
than by party.... in this case very wrongly so by a particular regional group.
But it also shows just how far we have dropped into partisanship. But thanks for bringing up the point... it was worth researching.... and
points that often the raw numbers don't tell the full story. In this case,
region trumped party.
I am personally familiar with many people who stopped coming to Church because
someone insisted that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints insisted
on affiliation with the Republican Party of the United States, or that
Republican principles were entirely consistent with the teachings of the Church,
while Democratic principles were anathema.This is absolutely absurd.
It's completely inconsistent with the Church's regular, official statements
that members should be free to belong to any political party that upholds their
personal political beliefs; not to mention the fact that the Church is an
international organization, and the politics of the United States are generally
unimportant outside the United States.There is no reason for any
Latter-day Saint to support any American political party unreservedly,
especially when the tenets of the parties vary from region to region.Additionally, I would like to point out that the concept of
"conservative," in and of itself, is not necessarily consistent with
the Gospel. "Conservative" is relative and variable (remember that
Stalinists were conservatives in the USSR at one time, and radicals fought the
American Revolution). Conservative in morality, and conservative in politics
are not necessarily synonymous.
Not going to happen. Thank you I don't think the Republican party has the
right idea either. It is time we think for ourselves and leave the parties out
in the cold.
There is no perfect fit for "good LDS members".One party has
many members who believe I'm heretical pariah, (the GOP). And the other? With
the Dems, I am a right wing religious zealot, who has no business even voting
and perhaps should be punished, by taxing my church, etc.There is no fit.