Great article. I would just say, though, that even for us members
who have spent our whole lives here in the heart of Utah, we sometimes find
ourselves "in the wilderness" as well, when it comes to the attacks of
anti-Mormons. I have found it interesting that their main tool in most
situations is deception, a clear characteristic of someone not following Christ.
If they were to approach me with sincere honesty and love as someone trying to
be a real Christian, it would probably be much harder to dismiss their drivel.
But, understanding their goals and motivation -- honesty, love, and Christianity
are clearly out of their reach. I've always been glad to have so
many amazingly good examples of pure Christianity all around me -- their example
is of great value. Their example may never change the minds of the antagonists,
but they are of great help to those of us who one day would like to become true
I have found that there is a difference between the gospel of Jesus Christ and
the culture of Mormonism. With a the church receiving increased attention in
the press, the media seems to have a knack for finding people who were raised in
a Mormon culture but do not have a testimony of the truthfulness of the
gospel.Thank you for this article. It is true that living the
gospel is much more important than the culture. The gospel changes life.
Cultural dogma and discrimination is a barrier to those who would honestly
accept the gospel. The next time you deride someone for their
appearance or for living their life the way they've been taught, ask yourself if
it is really based on the doctrines of the gospel or if it is based only on
So User41, LDS are "true Christians"? Does that mean other Christians
aren't "true"? How does this differ from people saying LDS are not
Docter: It differs because User41 refered to himself as a true Christian. He
did not say you were not a true Christian. You have every right to call your
self a true Christian.If you care to pursue this, please explain
"what is a true Christian".
@Doctor: There is a difference between claiming to be a Christian and actually
BEING one. The first is a declaration of faith; the latter is a life well-lived
in actual practice. There is a difference between talking the talk and walking
the walk, and that is what separates an everyday Christian from a peaceable
follower of Christ.Something to keep in mind is this: When a man
makes fun of and/or ridicules the faith of another, he makes fun of and
ridicules all religions, particularly his own, as in doing so, he shows his own
lack of faith as well as his infidelity to beliefs he has covenanted to hold
dear and sacred both to himself and to his Maker.
My apologies I read it wrong.
Tim Rollins said ,Something to keep in mind is this: When a man makes fun of
and/or ridicules the faith of another, he makes fun of and ridicules all
religions, particularly his own.all their creeds were an abomination in
His sight; that those professors were all corrupt(Joseph Smith)
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. (Matthew 7:20). Fruit can be
doctrine and Christians have the right to be fruit/doctrine inspectors. God[is]spirit(pneuma,)(John 4:24 Greek N.T.).No one has ever seen God,
but God the One ad Only who is at the Fathers side has made him known (John 1:18
NIV), Moses saw Him who is invisible (Hebrews 11:27) Moses saw Gods shekinah
glory.Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not
revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.(Mt 16:17).Christians do not beleive God is an exaltedman.(Aseity)
sharrona:If you would please, post back to me the source of the
statement " all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that those
professors were all corrupt(Joseph Smith)". Thank you.
Sharrona:Joseph Smith did Not say "all their creeds were an
abomination...."Joseph Smith said it was JESUS who made that
statement. It's importantto give credit where credit is due. Joseph was
only "Quoting" Jesus!!I know you were were not there in
the Grove of trees in Spring 1820,neither was I to witness the actual
experience of Joseph Smith. But I do know the story well enough to know
that Joseph claims that is what Jesus said.I know there's
Anti-LDS literature out there that says that Josephmade the statement (all
by himself), but... Anyone who really wants to know the Truth should
go to the "Original"sources to learn what's actually claimed.
It also doesn't hurt to Pray about things After going to the
"Original" sources and doing some serious contemplation.Lord Bless You, Sharrona.
Brother Paul:Thanks for the input. I suspect Sharrona does not know
the true source, someone told her that and she believed it.Now I
will not have to explain it to her, you did a good job.
Something else to consider in this discussion. Christ may have been speaking of
the specific congregations which Joseph was considering joining.
The author of the article described his situation, where most of the ward were
new converts, as "unique." Those Mormons who have lived their whole
lives in Utah may not have noticed this statement, but actually more and more it
is Utah that is unique. In other words, Alabama isn't the only place with mostly
converts, and where LDS people are minorities. I was born (LDS) in Utah, but
lived my whole life outside of Utah, except my first 4 years, and my 4 college
years. (Going to USU was a culture shock for me, being surrounded by so many
Mormons!) There are great benefits being in the majority, but as I have
discovered, there are also great benefits living in the minority.
Joseph Smith said the quote, he attributed it to jesus. Either way it is a
belief of LDS followers. Why quibble with it?
It depends on what version of the first vision you believe. They are all
slightly different, and we aren't just talking about the small details here. So,
brother Paul, what version of the "original" first vision are you
Brother Paul : Anyone who really wants to know the Truth should go to the
"Original"sources to learn what's actually claimed. I Did.From LDS revelation, we learn that Jehovah is the English form of the actual
name by which the Lord Jesus was known ANCIETLY, p.788 MormonDoctrine). In
(D&C 110:3 ,Jehovah appears to JS),( Abra 2:8 ,My is name is Jehovah) S/B
YHWH,JS was unaware of the poor KJV and didnt know the Personal name of
God(LORD)YHWH. Google Tetragrammaton.Jehovah(YHWH) the eternal
judge(Moroni 10:34), But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a
gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under Gods
curse.(Galatians 1:8).In(D&C 110: 1-16) Elias and Elijah appear
to JS, but in the Bible they are the same person. The KJV translators of the KJV
attempted to transliterate Elijah to Elias because there isnt a Greek character
for the English letter J.To avoid confusion, modern translations: NIV,
NJKV, NASB and the Catholic Bible have Elijah instead of Elias in(Mt 11:14,17;
The more I read and study the scriptures, the more I realize how many people who
deride The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints have no real
understanding of the scriptures. I have heard many people make general
statements as to WHY they KNOW the Church is NOT true and they quote Biblical
scriptures totally out of context when often if they would read the very next
verse they would find that their original assumption is false. It has also been
my observation that those who deride the Church WANT to deride the Church. It
makes them feel superior in some way. They aren't really interested in the
TRUTH, just in what THEY WANT the Truth to be. I have also learned that Truth
is Truth and you can't change it. The more I study the tenets of The Church,
the more I gain a STRONG testimony of its truthfulness. Joshua 24:15 says:
".....but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord." That
pretty much sums up how I feel and I find the LDS Church the place I CHOOSE to
serve in. Couldn't quote the whole scripture because of space constraints.
Doctor: We aren't quibbling with it and no it isn't a belief. We take it as
fact that Jesus Christ stated such. It is nothing more than having Paul make a
comment similar to that in his writtings or Peter. The thing is all of the
Gospels were written 60-100 years after the death and resurrection of our Lord.
In such, they also attribute the sayings to Christ but yet are written by meer
men. So, there is no difference from what we say or what they say.
An interesting consideration for most non-LDS is the following question:Noah was the prophet called of God to warn the people a few hundred
years before the earth's baptism by water (the Great Flood).Joseph
Smith was the prophet called of God to warn the people a few hundred years
before the earth's baptism by fire (during the Second Coming of Jesus
Christ).If Joseph Smith was not the prophet to fulfill this divine
role, then who is? We're quickly running out of time.
@will7370:Then who is?The Choice Seer - The American
Indian Moses. A full-blooded Indian to come forth in the not too distant future
of this land. JS was NOT the Choice Seer, and JS was only a Prophet
when his prophecies and/or teachings were in complete agreement with the KJV and
Michigander:Would you please give us a source of "The Choice
Seer-The American Indian Moses". Thank you.
John, Congratulations for holding onto the iron rod and being an example to all
around you. Great story!Some bloggers got way off track of what this
article was really about.
@American Man:2nd Nephi, Chapter 3 -  For Joseph truly
testified, saying: A seer shall the Lord my God raise up, who shall be a choice
seer unto the fruit of my loins. Yea, Joseph truly said: Thus
saith the Lord unto me: A choice seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy
loins; and he shall be esteemed highly among the fruit of thy loins. And unto
him will I give commandment that he shall do a work for the fruit of thy loins,
his brethren, which shall be of great worth unto them, even to the bringing of
them to the knowledge of the covenants which I have made with thy fathers. And he shall be great like unto Moses, ... But a
seer will I raise up out of the fruit of thy loins; and unto him will I give
power to bring forth my word unto the seed of thy loins -- and not to the
bringing forth my word only, saith the Lord, but to the convincing them of my
word, which shall have already gone forth among them.
Bill, so it's a fact but not a belief? Wow. I'll follow your logic now.
I am the author of the article. There can at times, indeed, be a
difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and Mormon (or any Christian)
culture as lived by its members. Ever watched an all-Mormon basketball game
between two wards? Or two Baptist congregations? In my mind, you
certainly dont have to live within or abide by Mormon cultural customs in order
to be a true Christian, although I dont believe there are very many Mormon
cultural customs that violate or run contrary to the commandments.
The basic point of my article is this: Christian is, is Christian does.
Anti-Christians and anti-Mormons mount attacks against the LDS understanding of
Christian history and against the LDS understanding of Christian doctrines. But
the grand test of a pure Christian religion is the presence or absence of an
exemplary Christ-like lifestyle as relected by the lives of the adherents to
that religion, judged on the whole. Thats the point.
KTC,But the grand test of a pure Christian religion is the presence or absence
of an exemplary Christ-like lifestyle as reflected by the lives of the adherents
to that religion, judged on the whole. True, But speaking the
truth(*Alētheuō,226) in love, may grow up into him in all
things, which is the head, even Christ(not an exalted man). Ephesians 4:15.
*Greek verb ,to profess the truth(true doctrine)like truthing in love. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was
GodAnd the Word became flesh and dwelt among us (John 1:1,14). God becomes man
not man become God.In(D&C 84: 11-13) JS said he saw Esaias S/B
Isaiah. JS needed a modern translation,they have Isaiah instead of Esaias
see (Romans 9:27,29.) For ALL the *prophets were until John (the
Baptist)(Mt 11:13). In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets
at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by
his Son,..(Hebrews 1:1,2).*the office of a prophet
Actual anti-Mormons make up a very small proportion of Christians, but
unfortunately this writer seems to characterize anyone who does not believe or
disagrees with the LDS Church as "anti-Mormon". Simply expressing a
disagreeing opinion, presenting opposing information, or stating one's different
beliefs without an agenda, motive, or goal to sway or change the established
belief is not "anti". Being "anti-" something may be a
positive or negative thing, depending upon one's perspective. Almost everyone
would be happy to be considered "anti-child abuse." Few people would
want to be known as "anti-Semitic." The term can stop, rather than
facilitate discussion and the broad use of the term by this writer is
hypocritical since he could be said to be "anti" as well. Way too many
Mormons use the label for simply disagreeing with their faith, but don't seem to
consider it "anti" if they disagree with your faith or beliefs. You
can disagree with the church and be opposed to it without being anti-Mormon. I
believe most Mormons oppose atheism....or disagree with certain aspects of
mainstream Christianity....so should they be called anti-this or that? Stop the
labels! They do little good!
I am the author of the article. The intended basic point of my article was
this: Christian is, is Christian does. Anti-Christians and anti-Mormons mount
attacks against the LDS understanding of Christian history and against the LDS
understanding of Christian doctrine. But the grand test of a pure Christian
religion is the presence or absence of an exemplary Christ-like lifestyle in the
adherents to that religion, judged on the whole. It is what the members of any
religion do that should count most in the measuring of their Christianity.
Thats the point.