I wish your article would make a difference in journalism's portrayal of
Mormonism... but I doubt it will.
I agree with Lane Williams that the word "cult" should have no place
in any conversation regarding Mormonism. Similarly the non-Christian label is
lazy and uninformed.I see a need for greater transparency both from
non-Mormons who often exaggerate in order to criticize the Church as well as
Mormons who often minimize in order to defend the Church. We can't criticize the
way others describe us in order to create negative perceptions if we go to
similar lengths in order to create positive perceptions.I think
Mormons simply need to openly say here is what we believe. It may be different
than what you believe but here is why we believe what we do. And here is the way
we live our lives because of what we believe.Too often we lay out a
very minimal, mainstream, apologetic description of LDS beliefs that can make us
look like we play with facts as much as those criticizing the Church do.
Christ's followers have always been accused of all manner of evil falsely, and
have been called much worse than a "cult" but I agree that the name
has become a form of bigotry and those using it should probably try something
as long as there are people on this planet there are going to be those that
attack and critisize what they dont know or dont understand and they will
constantly refer to Mormanism as a cult and that will never change. we were at
the town square yesterday when we over heard a conversation from a group of
people and they refered to Mormanism as a cult.-- my opinion is I think its
ignorant and uncalled for Im not LDS I have no use for religion but alot of my
friends are LDS and it just disgusts me to no end that the LDS people get the
negativity they do just for the simple reason people have no idea what is going
on so they attack and crtisize what they dont understand. the sad part is this
article will not change anything. alot of the so called Mormon haters all
beleive that there is no differance between LDS and FLDS if they would take time
to understand LDS people they would a great group of people.
the last line should of read-- they would find a GREAT group of people
It is easy to see why the term cult is used by other religious groups. They are
afraid of the success of the Mormon Church. They do not realize that the LDS
Church is the only church that has authority from God. They are sincere in
their beliefs and are unaware that Satan is using them to try and stop God's
work on the earth. Satan will use any means and methods he can to try and stop
the work of God. He has since Adam and Eve and will until the second coming of
First - Is it not a fair statement to say "many Christians consider
Mormonism a cult"? I think that accurately reflects many-a-Christian
sentiment. Second - Why would Michelle Bachman, Sarah Palin, or any
of the others waste their time exploring the "counter-cult" activities
against Mormonism? Naturally the topic interests the Mormon author, but he
unreasonably expects that disinterested others should engage Mormon issues.Third - We also should try and establish the basis for the
"cult" label. Is it just whole cloth fabrication derived from
competitive mud-slinging, or is there more to it than that? The fact is, Mormons
place an inordinate amount loyalty into leadership veneration. It is for this
reason they are often accused of "worshipping" Joseph Smith, or other
leaders. Another case in which we squabble over words, when the idea is that
Church leaders are held in higher esteem than what occurs in other
social/institutional spheres. This observation hearkens to the leader worship of
other groups whose cult title is less disputed. Another observation is Mormon
temple ceremonies that are secret and sometimes quite disturbing, as reported by
first time temple goers. The best course would be to just ignore the
I just have to laugh at the ignorance this counter-cult movement displays
whenever it talks about LDS beliefs. If you've ever read any of their tracts
(and you're LDS with some understanding of doctrine), you understand. The sad part is that ALL of their misunderstandings, and even valid concerns
have been answered by LDS apologists for decades. That these folks never even
read the LDS answers is telling. It would be good if their scholars
were to actually engage the LDS scholars in an honest scholarly discussion.
(They do this by responding to each others' published articles with fact and
source.) There are, in fact, honest differences in our beliefs, and genuine
concerns the evangelicals have that could be discussed with intelligence and
respect. There could be authentic learning that might take place, maybe not
belief on their part, but at least understanding of what we DO believe (as
opposed to what they THINK we believe).Instead, they call names as
if they were eight years old and refuse to engage in civil discourse. That the
journalists in this country don't call them out on this is just wrong.
The only ones that can get rid of the cult label are us. The vast majority of
non-LDS who know practicing LDS well would not call us a cult. They see us as
normal families with normal challenges who do normal things and try to be good
parents, raise good families, be honest, generous, charitable, etc... It's up
to us, especially those who live "in the mission field", to reach out
to others and get to know non-LDS. They should join civic groups and take a
more high profile position in their communities and let their light so shine.
Ward/stake public affairs officials need to be more pro-active.
Wards/Stakes need to be more involved with the community. I've seen stakes
solicit Nativity Scene displays and display them for the public to see. RM's
returning from foreign missions should go to schools and offer to speak to
foreign language and government classes.Ignorance breeds fear. The
counter-cult movement lives off of fear. If the public can know more about
Mormons and Mormonism, they wouldn't fear it. I've been asked whether we LDS
believe in Jesus. No wonder people believe that we are a cult.
Its folks like Well Read and his posting in my opinion who strengthens the
Christians belief that mormans are indeed a cult, which is supported by his
comments that they are the true and only church who have authority from God.
Yeah, keep thinking that way, and fanning the fire. And Let's see the worlds
population currently is 7 billion and the USA about 320 Million and live members
in mormon church equal, well you do the math. Oh, and when doing the math,
include all those dead non-mormons who after death were baptized.
Since the church never spends any time or capital in attacking other religions,
this will never change.I personally think that evangelicals don't
have a leg to stand on historically, and I call them on it every time. I remind
them that their belief in the Trinty (as espoused in the Nicean Creed) is
exactly the same as the Catholics. Therefore their religion is in error because
the Catholics started the whole thing. I also like to point out that the
dictionary definition of a cult is basically a belief system or set of beliefs
based on the teachings of one person. That makes every religion, including
theirs, a cult by definition. So I don't see the big deal. Walter Martin's
book has been debunked so many times it's not good for anything. Education is
If the word "cult" is offensive to Mormons, imagine how offensive
"sin" is to homosexuals.
Is the KKK a cult? They are christian are they not? What is the definition of
cult that we are implying?
'mormoncowboy": First - the idea that the Mormon Church is a
"cult" came directly from the evangelical movement. Other than the
Southern Baptist Church (which is actually mostly a part of the evangelical
movement) , most other Protestant churches could care less. Most members of
those churches had never even thought much about LDS, until it was something
they heard from the evangelicals, or read in the papers by journalists too lazy
to research beyond those evangelical tracts. Second - Michelle
Bachman, Sarah Palin and Mike Huckabee are all evangelicals. They are ignorantly
steeped in the idea that LDS belong to a cult and they spend LOTS of time
talking about this, regarding potential LDS candidates. (Look at some of
Huckabee's comments about Romney and LDS beliefs in 2008.)Third -
while it may be perceived by others that LDS worship our leaders, in fact we
worship Jesus Christ. We respect our leaders. And, concerning the temple,
ancient rites may seem odd, but they are not "disturbing." If you are
LDS, you know that nothing goes on there that is immoral, harmful or painful.
We learn about Earth's ecclesiastical history and we make promises to be good
people in God's sight. Period.
The anti-Mormon arguments raised by these people are so stupid that they have to
resort to ad hominem.
Are the FLDS considered a cult? They are simply living the religion of Brigham
RE: Well Read"It is easy to see why the term cult is used by other
religious groups. They are afraid of the success of the Mormon Church. They do
not realize that the LDS Church is the only church that has authority from God.
They are sincere in their beliefs and are unaware that Satan is using them to
try and stop God's work on the earth. Satan will use any means and methods he
can to try and stop the work of God. He has since Adam and Eve and will until
the second coming of the Savior."Quotes like that leave a
REALLY bad taste in the mouths of Evangelicals and other Christians. It is a
passive aggressive statement, that allows you to say I'm right you are wrong,
I'm doing GOD's work you are falling under Satan's power. If you truly believe
this than others will never stop defending their own churches, which means
To Petra - If Bachman, Palin, and Huckabee spend LOTS of time talking about the
Mormons being a cult, there would certainly be many examples of that, so let's
hear some. The DN makes hay out of every conceivable slight against Mormons,
whether real or imagined, so I don't think they're letting any of it slip past
their readership. Outside of one very brief comment about Mormons believing
Jesus and Satan are brothers, from Huckabee, and some follow-up backpedaling, I
don't recall hearing anything at all from any of them about Mormons, for good or
bad.What are you talking about, because to me it seems like an
awfully big chip on your shoulder.
When your leader says only wear one earring and your women immediately remove
any excess earrings it gives the appearance of blind following. The fact that
you have to resign in writing and have it accepted or the church hounds you
(personal experience)also creates incorrect appearances. I know thhe LDS church
is not a cult. But it is controlling. So roll with it.
I believe that when our good evangelical friends use the word "cult",
they are thinking "different". Different in a negative way, but
still, different. As we note the various definitions of the word
cult, the LDS Church does not fit any of them. If one would only do a little
investigation of the Church, they would find that it is a fairly large
(13,000,000 members), well organized organization, which is world-wide in its
scope, and is Christ centered based on the scriptures. It incorporates most
main-stream Christian doctrines, except those that are not consistent with the
scriptures. However, it has so much more, including prophets and apostles who
receive revelation from our Father in Heaven. This one thing seems to concern
people, as they tend to not believe in latter-day revelation, or at least do not
understand it. They tend to worry that if a Mormon were elected as president,
he would be influenced by the Church. This could not be further from the truth.
Even among our church leaders, there are both Democrats and Republicans. The
Church encourages its members to vote, but does not tell them how or for whom to
To Ernest T. Bass: The LDS Church was founded by one who was not a member of
any religion or sect, thus it was not a "break-off" of any religion,
which is one of the definitions of a "cult". As to whether the FLDS
is a cult, you decide!
At one time or another, all religious sects have been maligned, marginalized,
and denigrated. No matter, we are commanded to: "Love one another, Do unto
others as ye would have them do unto you - Come Follow Me." More of this
would bear the fruit and testimony of Jesus Christ that is the result of true
LDS4/Kirk said, The counter-cult movement lives off of fear. If the public can
know more about Mormons and Mormonism, they wouldn't fear it. No fear, speaking
the truth in love,The Lutheran Church--Missouri Synod, together with the
vast majority of Christian denominations in the United States, do not regard the
Mormon church as a Christian church, also The Catholic Church: Mormonism is a
non-Christian religion(Catholic answers). Christians believe the
Trinity; Which at one time JS taught. The doctrine of Christ, and the
only true doctrine of the Father, and the Son ,and the Holy Ghost, which is one
God(2Nephi 31:21) 1 John 5:7(JST & KJV). For there are three that bear
record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are
ONE (one,eis= #1,1520). Jn 17( One,en 1722 )is a oneness of purpose,true. Two
different Greek Word.The Changng world of Mormonism,in 1834 it was voted
on to change the name to The Church of LDS, notice the Lords name was omitted.
IN 1838 JS changed the name to the present
To Doctor: Our leader taught that one "set" of earrings would be
prudent, but more than that, he felt, was offensive to our Heavenly Father.
Yes, many took off their extra earrings (some did not and still have not), but
it was not by blind obedience. They took them off willingly, in order to show
reverence to our Heavenly Father, which principle was taught by President
Hinckley, who as a leader is trying to teach the church membership to live
righteous lives and learn to please our Heavenly Father.
I would like to think those of us that are LDS would be a little more thick
skinned and let the "cult" stigma roll of our backs. Those who are
determined to call "the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints,"
a cult, are, perhaps mixing the pure, and perfect teachings of Jesus Christ with
the ever so present "Mormon Culture." There are those in the LDS
Church, who are trying to be perfect and, in lacking doing so, feel they need to
take Christ's teachings and live them to the letter of the law and not the
spirit of the law. Forgoing one of the Saviors, imperatives of "Be of Good
Cheer." This means, in my opinion, is to be happy where you ar planted.
If I, as a faithful LDS member, need to take offense at some silly word, and get
my knickers in a knot, then maybe I should look at my life and ask myself,am I
of good cheer? Now start attacking my Church on some other misfounded
information, then the glove come off.
Petra:Much of the cult talk came at the turn of the century around
around Utah's isolation periods. Movies like the 1922 "Trapped by The
Mormons" went along way to reinforce the cult lable in ways that weren't
clearly sectarian, so I'm not certain that the "cult" label came from
the evangelicals, but that is beside the point. Whether you like it or not, for
many Christians, the Mormon culture is percieved in the same way as other well
recognized cults, whose leaders spoke directly for God. Part of what is missing
is the fact that earlier allegations connected Mormonism to the occult, due to
some of the astrological theology, paganistic cross-over (lent from the
wide-spread anti-masonry fervor), and the esoteric practices espoused by early
Church leaders - such as divining rods, seer stones, etc.The only
statement political statement from the politicians you mentioned was Huckabee's
slight jab about Jesus and Satan being brothers. We do believe this more or less
btw, we just didn't like how Huckabee stated it.As for Temple
worship, that's debatable, but contrary to your assertion many first timers use
the word "disturbed" to describe their experience. Think pre-1990's.
With all the important issues in our world nowadays, and the LDS have a rule
earrings? Maybe that "rule" and similar "major rules",
cause the world to have questions about LDS Church and their priorities.
sharrona, I would like you to know that the word "Saint"
in the New Testament, which name began during the time of the Apostle Paul, was
adopted as a name for the gentile converts. A Saint is a follower of Christ.
Therefore, The Church of the Latter Day Saints included, by intent, the name
Christ. That was the intent and meaning of that name. The Lord revealed to
Joseph Smith later that the name should be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter
Day Saints. No big deal here. The fact remains that Joseph Smith was a prophet
and received many revelations. The different names the church was known by
doesn't make any difference as to the truthfulness of the church. Each person
has to decide that on his own and can know through study and prayer and the Holy
Rather than so much complaining by Mormons of being called a cult, perhaps it
would help if Mormons would give reason and fact as to why they believe they are
not a cult. On the surface (that part that the missionaries like to show)
Mormons appear understandable and normal, but when one digs into the religion
and church history there are many peculiarities that appear to be of a cult
nature. Are Mormons saying like with polygamy, they were once polygmist but now
they don't practice it, and that they were once a cult but now they are main
stream. It is all very confusing.
@panamadesnews"but it was not by blind obedience. They took them off
willingly"How can you tell if it's willing or blind obedience?
I think it's extremely difficult to tell a difference between the two because
you can't really know what is going through someone's mind. I'm sure there are
plenty of people who blindly obey, and then plenty of people who thought it over
and decided to take them out. Since we're not going to see a prophetic command
to jump off a bridge... it's going to be hard to separate the two categories.
Probably what makes the "blind obedience" card so easy to play.
It's all just a sign of the times.
I couldn't agree more. I once listened to a radio show in which a respected
Catholic priest, I believe from Notre Dame U., said even the Catholic Church was
called a "cult" by its adversaries, in its infancy. He made the point
that the term "cult" was a derogatory term often used by bigoted
people to slam a church they object to. So, anything that mainstream religions
can do to encourage greater toleration between churches and reduce criticism
would make our country a nicer place in which to live. And, politicians,
journalists, and religionists should lead out in that effort. I for one, will
not vote for any candidate who slams another person's religion--and that means
calling it a cult.
Be Fair Look At Both Sides Of The Coin!John Taylor, the third
President of the Mormon Church, said Christianity is of the Devil."Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its [Christianity]
pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a
tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; and the Devil could not invent a
better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth
century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 167).Brigham Young
stated: "Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are
called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament
defines Christianity" (Journal of Discourses, 10:230);The
Christian God is the Mormons Devil. (Journal of Discourses,Volume 5 Page 331)The Christian God is the Mormons Devil. (Journal of Discourses,Volume 5
Page 331) John Taylor
We all know the comic strip B.C. One of the main caveman characters is Wiley.
Wiley wrote his own dictionary giving unique definitions to various words. One
word he defined was "cult". He defined it as "the church down
the street from yours". I think we LDS should use that quote,
with accrediting Wiley, when others accuse us of being a cult. It's humorous
and makes people think and shows our accusers as being narrow minded. Try it
out.SnowCanyonDad I would like to think those of us that are
LDS would be a little more thick skinned and let the "cult" stigma
roll of our backs.LDS4The term targets a non-LDS audience to poison
the well against missionaries and LDS candidates and job seekers. Just because
we ignore it doesn't mean that others will as well.duck I
couldn't agree more. I once listened to a radio show in which a respected
Catholic priest, I believe from Notre Dame U., said even the Catholic Church was
called a "cult" by its adversaries, LDS4Many counter-cult
ministries still call the Catholic Church as a cult and there are ministries
that focus exclusively on Catholics.
"I believe from Notre Dame U., said even the Catholic Church was called a
"cult" by its adversaries, in its infancy. "In its
infancy? Heck, a sizable percentage of people today consider the Catholic church
a cult or the pope an anti-christ.
Many Protestant Christians select a congregation based on the personal charisma
of the pastor, whose income is a function of donations made in response to his
(or her) personal following. That seems to me a lot more like "worshipping
a man" than the situation in Mormon congregations, where all the leaders
work for free, supporting themselves with regular jobs, and people attend a
congregation based on where they live, not changing wards because of a personal
attachment to a bishop. For that matter, bishops don't even deliver sermons on
most Sundays; the sermons are given by various members of the congregation. The LDS Church system specifically decreases the opportunity for anyone
to build a personal following or to profit from it. It is a structure that
works AGAINST a cult-like following of a pastor, unlike so many Protestant
churches whose success or failure is driven by a particular pastor's ability to
inspire personal loyalty and make financial donations. That personal loyalty
often leads to schisms in Protestant congregations, which is why there are so
many of them.
As to the issue of obedience to the teachings of LDS prophets, based on belief
in their entitlement to receive revelation, I frankly see little difference from
the obedience given to the statements of various Protestant ministers, who claim
for their statements the authority of the Bible as the "infallible"
Word of God. Those ministers assert their interpretations of the Bible as being
authoritative and binding on their followers, based on the authority of
"preserved" revelation in the Bible, as distinct from
"fresh" revelation directly from God which LDS leaders will sometimes
invoke (in addition to the words of the same Bible). On the other
hand, the Roman Catholic Church claims that the positions developed in Church
councils over the centuries are authoritative because they were inspired by the
Holy Ghost, and are therefore of equal authority with the Bible. Whichever
their faith, Christians of all kinds make significant sacrifices in obedience to
what they understand is the will of God. Any sincere Christian should admire
that, not attack other Christians over disagreements on what is a manifestation
of God's will.
panamadesnes: Most LDS I know believe the FLDS are a cult, with Jeffs at it's
head.As I said, the FLDS are much closer to Mormonism of the 1800s and up
to about 1920 than the current LDS church is.So, are the FLDS a cult? You
The biggest problem that exists with Mormonism is that it doesn't show itself as
Christian...The nature of God is completely different from biblical
christianity. Christians don't believe in many gods, and great grandparent gods,
and endless other gods..They don't believe that there God is a "regional
manager" god..They believe that their God is the God over all the universe,
meaning everything seen and unseen.The billions and billions of galaxies in the
universe..That's one of the main issues..Secondly Christianity believes that
Jesus is God period..We believe that there is One God that shows itself as God
the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit..
Christians believe the words of Jesus that God the Father is Spirit not a human
being..Christians follow the gospel of grace and faith not a gospel of law and
works..Christians don't believe in physical temples to worship God, but since He
rented the veil in the temple after Christ was killed on the cross, He now
dwells in our temple as the Holy Spirit enters in..Christians believe the holy
word is innerant not only believable if it's translated correctly...Christians
believe in the blood of Jesus and what he did for us on the cross...Christians
believe that it's not religion that saves you but Jesus alone..Christians
believe that Jesus is the only "High Priest", there are no other
priest except Him that we go to...This is some of the differences..God Bless..
Perhaps the DesNews should first worry about their own journalistic integrity
before worrying so much about that of others.A recent example:
using secondary sources to argue that the ACLU is trying to get porn in prisons
instead of doing the necessary research to see what the lawsuit is really
about.I know it is really scary to look at public records and check
with the justice department about the facts, but if they are unwilling to put
forth any effort, why should they be surprised that other journalists use the
Hey no problem at all! Mormons can start, and lead by example, by
cleaning their own house via no longer claiming that FLDS as well as unorthodox
splinter groups - like the Lafferty Brothers and Brian David Mitchell - were/are
cults and/or cult leaders.The problem, as Steven Hassan says so
well, is that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck . . . So yes Lane, there ARE such things known as "cults" in this world.
And if a group's behavior matches criteria established by Social Sciences (like
the BITE model) then it's a ....Sorry. Sorry kid!
Next tome you go to F&T meeting count white shirts vs color shirts. There
is no "rule" on white shirts but its funny what groupthink can
pressure you to do to conform.
Cult smult. Although it might bring up images of Jim Jones or the Branch
Davidians at Waco (and hence derogatory) - the truth is that the actual
definition of cults would fit exactly the make-up of the early Christians. The
Romans and Jews of the time looked at Christians as a "cult" - just as
secularists and Evangeticals do Mormons today.
Maybe this has already been said, but any argument evamngelicals can make for
the proposition that MOrmonism is a "cult" can only be a circular
argment, because they define Christianity self-referentially in the first place,
so the term "cuylt" just means "too different from us."
Hey Doc, I haven't worn a white shirt or tie to church in years. But I know what
My understanding of what a christian is is an individual that follows the
example of Christ, that believes he is the Son of God, that he atoned for the
sins of all mankind if they will have faith in him and keep his commandments. An
individual who lives his teachings such as loving God with all his or her might,
mind, and strength and by treating your fellow man like you would want to be
treated. If that is what makes a true christian, then Latter Day Saints
(Mormons) most defintally qualify.
A cult, properly speaking, is an organized religious body - particularly the
pattern of rituals, practices, and ordinances associated with that body. By
this definition, Catholics, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, Sikhs, Bahai's, Shintoists,
and any number of other religious denominations qualify as cults.For
me, I rejected the theology of the anti-Mormon fundamentalist evangelists long
before I became a Mormon. The fundamentalists' continual degrading, belittling,
and bashing of the individual, coupled with liberal doses of unexplained guilt,
alienated me as an American and as a human being. Their concept of justice
-wherein we are asked to blindly accept guilt for the transgression of Adam -
contradicts the American concept of justice, under which we have the right to be
presumed innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. LDS theology affirms
the ultimate worth and divine potential of the individual - something right wing
Protestant theology fails to do.
What a complex. The dnews has had four of these stories and has come to no
conclusion to dispell the argument. The commentors on the articles make it even
worse. Just stop already and let it drop. If you are comfortable with yourself,
who cares what others think. This is a non story unless you are feeling guilting
about being a member of a cult.
How arrogant to say we wear white shirts to appease a group-think mentality.
Many people understand the symbolism of wearing a white shirt to a meeting where
we're renewing a covenant that cleanses us each week, and wear it respectfully,
intentionally, and as a preferred choice. Many of the youth don't wear white
shirts out of group-think at all, but because their parents encourage and
sometimes require them to convey that symbolism, especially when participating
in the delivery of those sacred emblems. I don't suppose you think Catholic
altar boys wear robes out of a group-think mentality.People wear
ties out of respect for the worship occasion, although some haven't matured
enough to understand that outward appearance is an expression of the inward
commitment. If God was physically present and visible, I'd bet most people who
wear their nonconformity in dress and grooming as a badge of honor would clean
up for the occasion. There's no reason to apologize or feel embarrassed that we
still feel our worship service is worthy of the respect and honor we convey
through wearing our "Sunday best."
It makes me laugh to hear evangelicals calling mormons a cult. I think that any
fundamentalist of any stripe that thinks in terms of absolute truths is a
cultist whether they are mormons, evangelical protestants, catholics, muslims,
hard core right wingers or hard core left wingers. To think that you possess the
absolute truth because of some book that you revere is arrogant at best and
cultish at worst. It breeds distrust and intolerance of others and a good
example is this article in Worldmag, but any Morman who belived that there way
or beliefs are the only way or truth would fit into exactly the same catagory as
the evangelicals decrying mormonism.
Cult is used as word with negative meaning. It is generally applied to kool-aid
drinking groups that commit mass suicide, etc.Funny how people call
the LDS Church "haters, bigots, tyrants" and so on... yet they are the
ones applying labels of hate... a hateful act in and of itself.But
only perfect people cast stones, right?
JesusisLord1 ...We believe that there is One God that shows itself as God
the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit.. LDS4But the
Father is the God of Christ. How are they equal? They have different natures
(Christ is physical). LDS don't believe in the Greek philosophy on which the
Athanasian Trinity. 1 Tim. 1:6,7.JesusisLord1 Christians
believe the holy word is innerant not only believable if it's translated
correctly...LDS4Sorry, but there are SEVERAL verses in the
Bible (OT/OT, NT/NT, OT/NT) that contradict that even Norm Geisler, Howe, Haley
and other apologists can't explain away. There are also a number of verses that
contradict themselves when differing translations are used. I'd be MORE than
happy to share a few if you'd like.
lds4gaymarriage:you state, "LDS don't believe in the Greek
philosophy on which the Athanasian Trinity."And the LDS Church
doesn't believe in gay marriage either.
I thought Mormons viewed themselves 'in the world, but not of the world.' Now, they're upset that someone uses the term 'cult' for their
faith? Dosen't that mean they're 'in' the world?
@ DSB: Catholic alter boys dress in robes because that is what they are required
to wear.The point Doctor was making is that there is no such rule in
the Mormon Church. Your explanation does a much better job of proving his point
than arguing against it. @ A voice of Reason: Hmm - you know, I
don't recall ever hearing Evangelicals refer to Mormons as "haters,
bigots, tyrants" - although Evangelicals are the people that I hear refer
to the Mormon Church as a cult. Nor have I ever seen one of your posts where
you rant about "haters, bigots, tyrants" on threads about
Evangelicals. Perhaps you could point me in the proper direction to back up
your statements - or perhaps you just have a persecution complex.
To Idaho Coug and Doctor: The white shirt and tie is the uniform of the
priesthood. If either of you have ever heard General Conference, especially the
Priesthood Session you will hear quite often that worthy male members of the
Priesthood SHOULD wear white shirts and ties to Church. It isn't a requirement
at any time but it is something that SHOULD be followed. Why, because as
mentioned by many of the Leaders of the Church it is the uniform of the
priesthood. That is the only reason. Also, if you check with many of the
Bishoprics and Stake Presidencies you will find that if a youngman fails to wear
a white shirt and tie, he generally will not be allowed to pass the sacrament.
Again, not a requirement but for every action, their is a consequence. Maybe
Idaho Coug you should quit being rebellious and follow what President Uchtdorf
had to say during the last General Conference during the Sunday Morning Session.
Oh, that is right he was only speaking his opinion, not revelation.
Panamadesnews: I would like you to know that the word "Saint" in the
NT, which name began during the time of the Apostle Paul. Wrong, Saint early
12c., sanctus(Latin ) Holy. from the Greek word (hagios) also meaning Holy.
Spiritus Santus(Holy Spirit/Ghost). LDS/Kirk,1 Tim. 1:6,7,Cults;
Questioning authority is considered gross disloyalty and spiritual rebellion.
One of the reasons I left the church is the Bishop told me to read the KJV
only,no one in my ward(stake) could read Greek except me. A
Marvelous Work and Wonder evidence against the BoM. Therefore behold I
will proceed to remove this people, and I will remove them: and I will destroy
the wisdom of the wise, and will hide the understanding of the prudent. (Is
29:14 Septuagint))I will Destroy the wisdom of the wise ,and will bring to
nothing the understanding of the prudent(1 Corinthians 1:19) Paul is
quoting from the Septuagint. . A paraphrase gives a good view of Isaiahs
prophecy. Therefore I will take awesome vengeance on these hypocrites, and make
their wisest counselors as fools. (Is 29:14 LB). Fulfilled in that they(Jews)
@JesusisLord1Within the Book of Mormon, 2 Nephi 2:8, 2 Nephi 31:19, 2
Nephi 10:24, 2 Nephi 25:23, Jacob 4:7, Alma 22:14 Alma 24:10, Helaman 14:13
Ether 12:27, and Moroni 6:4 all basically say the same thing: that we are saved
by the grace and merits of Christ and Christ alone. Without His Atonement, we
believe all mankind would perish, be servants of the devil and be lost forever.
We believe that if "works save us", it is not our works, but His.
Living the Gospel of Christ- Faith in The Almighty God, Repentence through Faith
in Jesus Christ, Baptism, and any good done to others in our lives was never a
work of any man. Also, we believe Temples aren't the only places to worship,
just places set aside to dedicate to feeling the Spirit of the Lord as much as
possible and make specific covenants we believe should only be made within God's
Holy Temple. But as far as worship, we believe prayer is the most basic form of
worship and can be done anywhere, anytime. I hope this clears things up. Mark
To JesusisLord1 - you think that you believe in the biblical Jesus, but Mormons
don't? Just off the top of my head, the King James Bible relates the
following:1. Jesus prayed to another being he called Father.2.
Jesus, the Father, and Holy Ghost were all present at Jesus' baptism, each in
different form.3. Jesus said not to call him "good" as that only
applied to the Father.4. Jesus said repeatedly that he was obedient to his
Father.5. On the cross, Jesus grieved that the Father had forsaken him.6. Jesus prayed that his followers might be "one" as he and the
Father were "one." Are all followers to be joined in any other way
but in unity, love, and purpose?Isn't is more correct that your
interpretation (or rather, the Nicean Creed's interpretation) of the biblical
Jesus is different than ours? Our side merely lost the Nicean Council
debate.BTW, I also believe in faith, grace, our body as a temple for
the Holy Ghost, the blood of Christ and what he did for me on the cross, and
that there is no other name under the heavens whereby man may be saved.
To Sorry Charlie!Evangelicals are CERTAINLY not the only group to
have labeled the LDS Church as a cult, or called us haters, bigots, or so on.
Nor does that mean that all Evangelical use such language or have those
views.However, my term was very generalized and for a reason.-Those who fight the LDS church, using terms designed to
have a negative impact on how people view the Church, or in some cases- simply
to fight the church.The point? Using hateful words to describe
someone, REGARDLESS of who you are, what cause you are a part of, or what
religion you are... hate is hate. And using such words to describe us goes
against what the people using such terms are preaching that they believe in.
To 'Utter Nonsense' re: 'If the shoe fits, wear it':Is it 'utter
nonsense' that the Mormon Churchs mission to the world is to--- proclaim
a church in these most perilous times, as similar fashion to His ancient
Church--with Apostles and a living Prophet at its head?- announce that
its "authority" as divine, just as it was anciently? - believe
in the immortality of the soul?- worship God not only a Sabbath (but
wholly advocates doing so--24/7)?- believe in a "Messiah" who
not only WILL come in the near future, but who already has come, who atoned for
the world's sins as prophesied anciently and in modern times?- reinstate
temple-building, and to ensure (seal) families eternal continuity?- that a
church today actually strives to express its magnanimous love for humanity by
delivering 'Christian' service via spirit of service and volunteerism in
devastated areas and regions of the world--i.e. millions of tons of goods,
commodities, and humanitarian service for decades?- Preach, teach and
testify to the world that Jesus IS The Christ, and that He lives, and affects
our lives and destiny in the profound, above manner?So, whats nonsensical?
DSB, if you believe that faith and grace saves you which Christians do to, then
tell me why do you believe "in grace after all you can do"? That my
friend is not complete grace...And if you believe the new covenant of the blood
that we are redeemed of all sin, how does your faith say, believing Jesus is not
enough, we must DODODODO, in order to get in the highest kingdom and then
continue to become a god? This is not the gospel of Jesus Christ, a gospel of
faith and grace, you have a gospel of law and works..Sorry, need to see what the
new covenant is all about...It's freedom in Christ, not bondage to a corporation
A voice of Reason says:"To Sorry Charlie!Using hateful
words to describe someone, REGARDLESS of who you are, what cause you are a part
of, or what religion you are... hate is hate. And using such words to describe
us goes against what the people using such terms are preaching that they believe
in. "---Well, well, well. Here we have an
excellent example of "pot/kettle" syndrome. ;}
A voice of Reasonlds4gaymarriage, you state, "LDS don't believe
in the Greek philosophy on which the Athanasian Trinity."And
the LDS Church doesn't believe in gay marriage either. LDS4True. Ironic, but true. Scripture condemns the former concept and condemns
our opposition to the latter. The traditional Christians need to face the
scriptures condemning the former and we LDS need to face the scriptures
condemning our opposition to the latter. Neither group seems willing to do that
and both resort to non-canonical statements to justify their respective
positions and ignore the clear word of God.
"People wear ties out of respect for the worship occasion, although some
haven't matured enough to understand that outward appearance is an expression of
the inward commitment."Most of the scripture that come to my
mind on this matter actually state the opposite. God, looks upon the heart while
man looks upon a persons outward appearance. Those who come dressed (outwardly)
in sheeps clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Those who outwardly
disfigure their faces so as to appear unto man to fast. The Zoramites who were
judged by their peers based on the outward appearance of their poverty.We could go on, but this notion of business dress representing an inward
commitment is completely foreign to the teachings of scripture, but entirely
intrinsic to group mentality. For reasons such as these, Mormons get the labels
that they get.
sharrona - 1 Tim. 1:6,7,Cults; Questioning authority is considered gross
disloyalty and spiritual rebellion. One of the reasons I left the church is the
Bishop told me to read the KJV only,no one in my ward(stake) could read Greek
except me.KJK - 2 years ago, I made an appointment with my stake
president to discuss my disagreement with the Church regarding Prop.8. When I
got there, the whole Stake Presidency was there. After about an hour and harsh
disagreement from the 2nd Counselor, the meeting ended. I asked the Stake
President if he had time for a temple recommend interview. He did and he signed
my recommend. I received no punishment for my open opposition.I own nearly 20translations of the Bible...nearly 20. I own 3 different
Greek NT translations and use them when teaching Gospel Doctrine and Gospel
Essentials to give greater insight into passages where the KJV comes up short or
is ambiguous. No bishop has ever condemned it.We LDS are stuck with
the KJV. If we changed, we'd have to redo the BOM so the quotes from the Bible
match up. We're not about to do that.
Bill in Nebraska:And lets not forget that the "uniform" of
the Priesthood takes on the image of the modern business class! This uniform
does not bring everyone to the same level, and demonstrate that God is no
respecter of persons, but rather borrows prestige from the dress code that
distinguishes the upper classes from the lower - labor, from management,
poverty, from wealth.
%voice of reason, hate is hate; and truth is truth. Shakespeare said it best: a
rose by any other name is still a rose.
I don't think the modern, mainstream LDS religion is fairly classified as a
cult, but I think the church sometimes acts like a cult. For
example, at places like BYU, there is a strict code of dress and grooming that
force a certain conformity of appearance. There is a central leader of the
church that sometimes dictates even minor aspects of his followers lives (e.g.
how many earrings to wear). There is a requirement to pay a large amount of
money in order to gain access to secret/sacred information in temples. Members
that leave sometimes face harmful treatment from other members and even from
close family. Members are discouraged from reading information that might lead
them out of the group. There are many more, but I don't think these
things fully define Mormonism. Rather, Mormonism more and more becomes more of
a mainstream religion and the extremist elements tend to fade by the wayside as
time goes on.
JesusisLord1 - DSB, if you believe that faith and grace saves you which
Christians do to, then tell me why do you believe "in grace after all you
can do"? That my friend is not complete grace...KJK - We know
that James preached that "faith without works is dead" so the idea of
"cheap grace" is refuted. "Cheap grace" leads to
It's time to cut the term "cult" from public dialog, period.This is a pejorative with no universally accepted definition, that scares
people. Those who envoke it are not trying to help their audience gain an
accurate understanding of the group in question, they're trying to foment
fear.They're don't want to promote thoughtful consideration, they wish to
stiffle it. To demonize the faith at hand, then move on to the next target.It's sad that we even need to discuss this cheap parlor trick,
nevertheless the fact that so many look on a religion very differently after
hearing this label makes it an matter that needs to be deal with.
BIll in NebraskaPerhaps you should turn to the Bible to see what the
garments of the priesthood are. Nowhere are white short sleeved t-shirts and
distasteful ties mentioned.
DSB said, "Our side merely lost the Nicean Council debate."This is absolutely correct! I've been saying that the LDS are a type of Arians
for a while now. Arians were proto-Mormons, originating in the 4th century. If
you study 4th century Christianity closely, you will find that Arianism actually
dominated the Church for most of that century. Most of the Roman emperors during
that time were Arian, as were most bishops. The much maligned Athanasius was
actually exiled several times by the emperors to try to squelch orthodox
Christianity. And it almost worked-- modern Christianity would be essentially
Mormon.Trinitarians really don't take issue with most of the points
that you raise, DSB. The Father, Son, and Spirit are three distinct centers of
consciousness. Your critique apples to Sabellianism only (modalism-- one person
performing three roles). Most Mormons misrepresent Trinitarianism as
Sabellianism, as you have done.Reread the passage for your third
point. Jesus does not say that. He asks a question, and does not mention the
Father, but God.The Athanasian understanding of deification and
union with Christ is the best way to understand John 17:21-22 (your sixth
point). Not a problem for us.
I would go so far as to say "cult" should never be used by journalists
at all for anything. It is an attack word that in current language serves no
Perhaps I could speak from the perspective of an evangelical on the matter of
Mormonism being labeled a "cult." The term, as we evangelicals use it,
is generally reserved for those groups that claim to be Christian but believe in
aberrant doctrine, especially with regard to theology proper; that is, their
doctrine of God.So it's not so much about secret rituals or blind
allegiance to men (as an aside, Christian Fundamentalism, of which I am a part,
is full of this kind of cultism-- hero worship. Whether Mormonism is like this I
won't discuss here). We would understand Mormonism to be cultic in the same way
that Arians, Gnostics, Jehovah's Witnesses, or Sabellians are cultic-- they have
an aberrant, heterodox view of the Godhead. Yet all claim to be Christian, even
though their beliefs are mutually exclusive with ours. Only one can be genuinely
Christian.Most evangelicals prioritize their religion over their
politics, because the true religion will outlast the U.S. into eternity. This is
as it should be. A candidate's religion will always be scrutinized by
evangelicals, because it will heavily influence the way a man runs the country,
if he really believes as he says.
@JesusisLord1"if you believe that faith and grace saves you
which Christians do to, then tell me why do you believe "in grace after all
you can do"?"Because actions are important. Does belief in
God give you free reign to blow up an orphanage because hey... Christ died for
you so you're going to be fine due to grace? No, of course not, you'd get a one
way ticket to hell. I left the LDS church but there are some things I think they
have right. One of which is this "grace after all you can do" thing
because if you really believed in Christ then you would do all that you could to
try and follow him (try, since we will all fall short anyway). Do you believe
that grace and faith gives you a blank check to commit whatever sins you want
whenever you want? I'm sure your answer is no which means you believe in the
"after all you can do thing".
Enjoyable thread. So folks who wear colored shirts are "rebellious"
and can't serve sacrement. When did paying tithing become a requirement to
attend temple weddings? I wore many a robe as a catholic alter boy. It was part
of the ceremony like your temple garments. I certainly didn't wear robes to
mass. I remember one funeral i was an alter boy and we were out of incense. I
told the priest and he said, "light the coals, he's dead, he won't
notice." What would happen in one of your rituals if a single word was
uttered wrong or some action done incorrectly?
TO Well-Read: I am LDS and even I am put off by statements such as yours which
leave people with the wrong impression about our faith. There are many people
of other faiths who dedicate their lives to serving Jesus Christ and following
the example He left for ALL of us. I am a convert of 36 years and still blow my
top when I hear ignorant comments like those you made. I think you will be
truly surprised by whom you share the Celestial Kingdom with, and it won't all
be people who were Mormons here on earth. It does seem odd to me
that so many conservative evangelical Christians spout off about how they won't
vote for a Mormon when those LDS politicians stand for the same moral values and
ideals they purport to stand behind. The comment shared in the article about
evangelicals not wanting to vote for an LDS president because that would somehow
validate the Mormon church; I surely don't think having John F. Kennedy in
office boosted the membership of the Catholic church- give me a break!
Re: Doctor @ 11:02 "When your leader says only wear one earring and your
women immediately remove any excess earrings it gives the appearance of blind
following. The fact that you have to resign in writing and have it accepted or
the church hounds you (personal experience)also creates incorrect appearances. I
know thhe LDS church is not a cult. But it is controlling. So roll with
it."Well Doc I think you could say that type of action about
politicians or movie stars too. I think you miss an important concept regarding
following leaders and that is the fact that the person can make a personal
decision on whether or not to follow counsel, advice, programs given by leaders.
I guess some could even write a letter saying they want to wear multiple earings
and don't want to be around all those people who only wear one.I'm
sorry that the requirement to write a letter gives you such grief, but you are
free to go either way. I wonder what it takes to "resign" from the
United States because the leader requires me to do things (like pay taxes.)
The difference between a "cult" and a "denomination" is --
three generations.All religions start out as cults. The bad ones
flame out quick. Those with fundamentally sound principles, and without too
many sharp corners, survive to pass on the tradition to children and
grandchildren. That's the only difference between a cult and a denomination --
a respectable denomination is just a cult that's mellowed. Like good Scotch,
not that I'd know.
To be fair to evangelicals (fairer, that is, then they typically are to us), I
can understand why they are so insistent on magnifying the differences between
points of their doctrine and ours. (We exaggerate the differences, too, though
for different reasons, and that's another story.) Protestantism
exists because some people decided that the Roman Catholic Church had gotten its
doctrine wrong, and those errors were serious enough to affect a person's
salvation -- serious enough to justify splintering Christendom, which aided in
the rise of secularism and the decline of Christianity's influence generally.
To them, Christian life is less important than proper Christian identity. It's
less about what you become, that is, than what you believe. Which explains so
much of why their people's conduct, morally speaking, is pretty much
indistinguishable from that of the irreligious.We've got it the
other way around: What you believe is important, but not as important as what
it causes you to become. If you're not becoming Christlike, then what you
believe isn't doing you any good. Likewise, it's possible to become Christlike
even without consciously believing orthodox Christian doctrine. Catholics and
Mormons accept this; many Evangelicals don't. Their loss.
RE: Kirk/LDS4: Cults will not Question authority like the Noble Bereans(Acts
17)cchecked Saint Paul. The Love Chapter (1 Corinthians 13.)
Charity(love)never fails( 1Cor 13:8) or Faith hope and charity(love)(1
Corinthians 13:13).Moroni 7:47 . "But charity(love) is the pure
love of Christ . Makes no sense in the original Greek. Charity,
mid-12c.,benevolence for the poor," caritas from the Latin Vulgate often
used as translation of Greek, agape "love".In(D&C 110:
1-16) Elias and Elijah appear to JS, but in the Bible they are the same person.
The KJV translators attempted to transliterate Elijah to Elias because there
isnt a Greek character for the English letter J.To avoid confusion: NIV,
NJKV, NASB and the Catholic Bible have Elijah instead of Elias in(Mt 11:14,17;
Luke 1:17)In(D&C 84: 11-13) JS said he saw Esaias S/B Isaiah.
Modern translation have Isaiah instead of Esaias, (Romans 9:27,29). Elijah the
prophet was born in Tishbite and lived in the reigns of Kings Ahab and Ahaziah
about 1,000 years before Abraham .JS was unaware of these errors.
brokenclay Arians were proto-MormonsKJKActually not. LDS,
like Trinitarians, believe in homoousios. We simply disagree on the nature of
that "nature".brokenclay The much maligned
Athanasius was actually exiled several times by the emperors to try to squelch
orthodox Christianity.KJKArianism was strong in the East.
Constantine and Athanasius were Westerners. Constantine wanted to unite the
kingdom religiously and politically to prevent schisms. He favored Athanasius
and forbade Arius from attending or speaking. He had to rely on supporters to
speak and lobby on his behalf. The deck was stacked from the start.brokenclay (to DSB)Your critique apples to Sabellianism only (modalism--
one person performing three roles). Most Mormons misrepresent Trinitarianism as
Sabellianism, as you have done.KJKUnfortunately, you are correct.
Most LDS aren't versed in early church history. Trinitarians are NOT Oneness
Pentacostals nor other Jesus only Monarchianists. Others gave
better objections to Trinitarianism - The Father being referred to as being the
God of Christ and that the Holy Ghost is never called God. As has been stated ,
the problem is trying to fit the square peg of Greek philosophy into the round
hole of scripture.
Old Guy-I think this is my 4th comment so I can't reply. If you want to resign
from the U.S. just leave. If you want to resign from the LDS church you can't
move to three different states because they forward our records. And senior
missionaries have callings to track down inactives. And my wife was LDS and
before we got married we agreed we wouldn't raise children LDS. Didn't matter
to local ward folks.
Frankly, anytime you have to redefine something you are just lying to yourself.
Go ahead, change the definition of a cult and while your at it redefine what a
Christian is. Tell everyone that you believe all Christians are saved and then
redefine it to only include yourself. While your at it, go ahead and redefine
what lying is also. For me it's easy; instead of changing all those definitions,
I just use a simple dictionary and decide for myself.
no fit in SGThe simple things have such a profound impact in the
world! The way a person dresses and how they treat their body will reflect in
what they do with their body and if everyone treated their bodies as a temple as
the bible says it is, we wouldn't have half the complex issues we have in this
Kevin,Thank you for your reply and understanding regarding
Sabellianism.1. Homoousios is not with reference to sharing only
part of a nature like you and I do (we have equal kinds of human nature, but I
do not share in your particular essence-- your "Kevinness." Homoousios
means that the Father, Son, and Spirit share the exact IDENTICAL nature, and
they each possess simultaneously that nature in its entirety. Their nature is
undivided; ours is divided. If this is the case, then the LDS view is more in
line with the Arian homoiousios. In summary, the orthodox term homoousios
requires monotheism, which clearly excludes the LDS.2. Athanasius,
Bishop of Alexandria, Egypt, was actually of the Greek East. Interestingly, it
was Constantine himself who sent Athanasius on the first of his five exiles.
Further, it was actually Athanasius' predecessor, Alexander, who led the
orthodox faction at the Nicaean Council, not Athanasius or Constantine.
Constantine, later in life, had definite Arian leanings. He was baptized before
his death by the leading Arian bishop, Eusebius of Nicomedia.3. The
Spirit is God (1 Corinthians 3:16)-- surely the material Mormon father and son
cannot be said to indwell a believer.
TO: Kirk J Kirkham. Some counter cult information.Holy Ghost is the
same Greek word(pneuma,4151)used for Holy Ghost and Holy Spirit.(1 cor 3:16
& 6:19)Check Modern translations.Bruce R. McConkie? "From
LDS Revelation [My name is Jehovah, D&C 110:3& Abraham 2:8] however, we
learn that'Jehovahis the English form of the actual name by which the Lord Jesus
was known ANCIENTLY? Wrong! JS misunderstood Gods personal name.Google,
Tetragrammaton, the PERSONAL NAME=YHWH God.The Greek word
(agape,25) is often translated "love" in the New Testament.
"agape love" is different from other types of love? Unlike our
English word love, agape is not used in the Bible to refer to romantic or sexual
love. Nor does it refer to close friendship or brotherly love, for which the
Greek word philia[Philadelphia] is used. Nor does agape mean CHARITY, a term
which the K JV translators carried over from the Latin. Agape love is unique
and is distinguished by its nature and character. Agape is love which is of and
from God, whose very nature is love itself. JS misunderstood the KJV translation
in Moroni 7:47
brokenclay ..the Father, Son, and Spirit share the exact IDENTICAL nature,
and they each possess simultaneously that nature in its entirety. KJKSince Christ has a physical nature and was begotten at some point and the
Spirit (spokesman, advocate) is not God, the Trinity isn't logically
possible.BrokenclayAthanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, Egypt,
was actually of the Greek East...Further, it was actually Athanasius'
predecessor, Alexander, who led the orthodox faction at the Nicaean Council, not
Athanasius or Constantine.KJKCorrect. My aging brain was wrong.
Athanasius, though, WAS the pointman for the Alexandrian faction. Constantine
refereed the council enforcing decorum and pushed for a consensus. Athanasius
was a shrewd civil politician. Arius wasn't. Since Arius couldn't lobby the
council and Constantine wanted a quick and civil solution, the result was more
politically based rather than theologically. BrokenclayThe
Spirit is God (1 Corinthians 3:16)-- surely the material Mormon father and son
cannot be said to indwell a believer. KJKThis in no way says that
the Spirit is God. The Holy Spirit is never called God in scripture. Square
peg/ round hole.
Kevin,1. I take it by your silence regarding homoousios that you
agree with me now that Mormons are not such. What being "begotten"
means is debatable. In any event, it is unique to the Son, because he is the
ONLY begotten. For reading on the orthodox understanding of Jesus' human nature,
read on the Hypostatic Union. There is no mixture between his divine and human
natures. Contrary to LDS theology, before Christ's incarnation, he did not have
a material human nature (John 1:14; Philippians 2:6-8; 1 Timothy 3:16). The fact
that he "became flesh" presupposes that previously he was not flesh.
The purpose of a temple is to be indwelled by the manifest God. The Spirit does
this (1 Cor 3:16). Can the Mormon father do this? There was no answer to this
point.2. Athanasius (a deacon) actually did very little, if
anything, at the council. Only bishops were allowed to decide-- not emperors,
deacons, or presbyters (Arius was a presbyter). Athanasius rose to prominence
three years later after becoming bishop. Having read much of his writings, I
find no political motivation whatsoever. He was compelled by his zeal for God.
@Doctor"If you want to resign from the LDS church you can't move to
three different states because they forward our records."All I
had to do to resign was hand delier a letter to the stake president... and then
make that request again over the phone when i was called by my home teacher
because my records were still misplaced in a different ward (thanks to that
massive student ward realignment a couple months ago everything was a mess
record-keeping-wise). I haven't received any calls in a month so I assume it's
been taken care of.
*sigh* It saddens me to see such encroachment or tiptoeing towards flagrant
rejection of the whole separation of church and state thing, which is kind of...
important, to put it lightly. Even the words used in this very article just
make me shhake my head in frustrated amazement...whether "it's OK" for
whoever to vote for whoever, or if "they can" vote a certain way, and
above all else, the fact that religion is even a factor in people's
decision-making. How about choosing based on their actions or behaviour? I
shouldn't be surprised that people think "it isn't ok" to vote for
someone if they're of a certain faith, but it still does. While this article at
least continues to bring to the surface another facet of how voters may ignore
actual issues in lieu of voting for those within their own circle, I am left
hoping that the writer continues writing with further exploration and discussion
on this matter, with the intention of helping people think for themselves by
looking at the issues and not just the affiliations. So, bravo to you, and
whilei know it is a tough battle, the more elucidation the better :)