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Is BYU or Utah better positioned for long-term success?

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  • SoCalUtahFan Utesville, CA
    July 7, 2011 3:28 p.m.

    ...Mandel gives the overall edge to Utah, calling BYU coach Bronco Mendenhall's massive staff shakeup during the offseason "panicky."...

    In summary, nothing that we have not known already.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 7, 2011 3:30 p.m.

    Utah without question!!!!!! They have the opportunity of making tons of money, recruiting national caliber talent on a continuous basis and are in a phenomenal BCS conference. BYU, on the other hand, is in a precarious spot. Sure they are "independent," but that only makes their road to success more difficult. The football team has to g
    o undefeated, which will never happen, just to be considered for a BCS bowl bid. And, it is very apparent that they cannot recruit great, "speedy" athletes from the black community. Therefore, they will never succeed on a national basis. Additionally, who is to say that ESPN will renew their contract in the future......half of their games are against 2nd class programs........so who wants to watch that garbage when there is a great SEC match-up on another channel? And yes........BYU's fan base speaks for itself......no need to comment on those people.

  • SoCalUtahFan Utesville, CA
    July 7, 2011 3:31 p.m.

    1)...But the biggest keys to "on field" success are internal, not external. Which program has the better coaching staff and talent in place, or on the way? Again, I give the edge to Utah....

    2)...I also expect Utah to reap the benefits of Pac-12 membership in recruiting, allowing the program -- which already recruited heavily in California -- to attract higher-caliber prospects in the highly fertile state...

    nothing that we have not already known.

    Nice article

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 3:31 p.m.

    BYU and Utah now have different criteria for success.

    BYU's goal is exposure to help football and church recruiting. They will appear on ESPN several times regardless of if they have a 10-2 season or another 7-6 season.

    Utah's goal is play "at the next level" of college sports. A challenge? Definitely.

    If "BCS" is the success criteria (and it shouldn't be), the edge is Utah. They may have a mediocre season and a New Mexico Bowl bid, but they still receive a share of BCS dollars. ESPN had a nice article on why going independent made it more difficult for BYU to earn a BCS bid. But again, their goal is exposure, not fighting the BCS.

  • chicagoborn WEST VALLEY CITY, UT
    July 7, 2011 3:34 p.m.

    The ONLY thing that Notre Dame and BYU have in common is the arrogance of the fans and the unrealistic expectations. I'm sick of hearing from Notre Dame fans that this is the year and BYU fans are all about ifs. If we go undefeated, if we beat Utah, if if if. These two teams regularly compete for the pre-season national championship.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 7, 2011 3:34 p.m.

    Utah all the way!!!!!! Go Utes!

  • phoenix Gilbert, AZ
    July 7, 2011 3:43 p.m.

    Being lumped in with Notre Dame, Auburn, Ohio State, Georgia, and West Virginia as "CFB Fan Bases with Unrealistic Expectations" is pretty good company and shows the kind of national media attention BYU is drawing with its move to independence.

    ----------------

    Mandel writes, "Both programs are substantially better off than they were June 30."

    In other words, regardless of how BYU's move to independence compares to Utah's move to the PAC 12, bottom line is BYU is SUBSTANTIALLY better off than the Cougars would have been if they'd stayed in the MWC -- much more revenue, much better television coverage, and substantially better opportunities to play several teams like Texas, Notre Dame, and Georgia Tech every season.

  • Papa Smurf UTE Herriman, UT
    July 7, 2011 3:49 p.m.

    The main difference is, which we have known for over a year now is the bowl games and money. This upcoming year the Y could go 10-2, have a great opening Independent season, and they will go to the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl or whatever it is. The UTES could go 9-3, with one of those losses to the Y, and still play for the Rose Bowl. Even if the Y goes 11-1, or 7-5, it is still the same bowl, and the same situation. In a few years if bYu keeps winning, & they get out of their bowl contracts, better & more lucritive bowls may come calling. Especially with ESPN behind them. If & when that happens, the money, bowl games, conference affiliation, etc, the edge will still go to Utah, but bYu will still be in a much better situation than they were in the MWC. As bad as it would be to lose to bYu this year, if we won the Pac 12 South, & the conf championship game & made it to the Rose Bowl, that would take a lot of the sting away.

  • TheSportsAuthority Arlington, VA
    July 7, 2011 3:51 p.m.

    By increasing their revenue 10 fold and already having seven ESPN games scheduled for the coming season, BYU's move to independence is already a success.

  • Swoop Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 3:55 p.m.

    chicagoborn

    NOBODY exceeds the arrogance we've heard from Utah fans since last June. To hear them talk, you'd think they'd won the last 10 national championships instead of a couple of relatively meaningless BCS bowls.

  • gonefishn Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 3:55 p.m.

    When BYU is playing some Wac school at 8:00 pm in mid November the folks in LES will be getting a different kind of exposure than they bargained for.

  • IDC Boise, ID
    July 7, 2011 3:57 p.m.

    Utah got a great job at a great company with a great paycheck but they have a boss.

    BYU started their own company. They are assuming much greater risk, will work longer hours - especially earlier on, and they may fail. The upside is that they are the boss, they get to do what they want, and they have greater potential.

    I work for myself and I wouldn't change a thing. We will see how it works out for BYU.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 7, 2011 4:01 p.m.

    @ chicagoborn Very well stated sir. The difference is that Notre Dame is the most popular team in the country and have probably the greatest history of success and tradition in college football. BYU is only an aberration in the national scene. Although they boast about a myriad of things claiming they are viable.........it really falls upon deaf ears. BYU has never played in a big bowl game yet and have an atrocious bowl record at that. They had two decent decades in their history and that was over 20 years ago. They went indy because they were dissed and the school up north was rewarded with a precious PAC-12 invite. Notre Dame this year could be pretty darn good........may see them in a BCS bowl????? Who knows?

  • Portland Trail Blazers Sandy, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:05 p.m.

    BYU is.

    Too easy of a question.

    ESPN or kued/fox regional sports station... DUH --> ESPN

  • Chris Bryant SLC, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:07 p.m.

    Swoop claims that winning BCS bowls is "relatively meaningless". Gee. Where does that put BYU's invitation to the Kraft Macaroni and Cheese Bowl?

  • One Nil to the Arsenal! Gilbert, AZ
    July 7, 2011 4:11 p.m.

    @ Swoop

    Kind of like the arrogance & garbage we have heard the last 25 years about BYU being a "storied' program? I know you live in Mayberry, but let me tell you a little secret. Outside of Utah (unless your LDS), nobody really cares about BYU or Utah.

  • crowntown1 Corona, CA
    July 7, 2011 4:16 p.m.

    Only Losers think a couple BCS wins are meaningless

  • eagle Provo, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:22 p.m.

    How about this weird answer. BOTH are doing better and both will do well with their new paths.

  • che loco Springville, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:28 p.m.

    Utah is in a better position for the long-term. No doubt about that. And this is from a Y alum and fan.

    @clowntown,

    Interesting how you say you're a USC football fan and not a fan of Utah's but here you are defending Utah against pro-Y posters. In my observations of your usual posts, there seems to be a bit of hypocrisy there. Like your false insinuations about the Y's APR. If you hate the Y so much, time to just leave it alone. Stop the hate. Embrace the love, brother.

  • --JEFFE-- Cedar City, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:31 p.m.

    Utah is obviously in a much better position than BYU in the long run.
    There is really no argument or debate, just the facts.

    Utah as a member of the PAC-12 has direct access to BCS, a HUGE TV contract deal with an enormous pay-out (in 2014), and a set schedule with good conference opponents. No matter how competitive the athletic programs are, these are all sure things.

    Now whether they will be dominant or a floormat in the PAC-12 remains to be seen. This will determine the kind of recruits they get, and appearances in CC and BCS games.

    So the long term success is really still in question, but Utah is sitting at a big table with a high ceiling, and a guaranteed share in feast.

  • --JEFFE-- Cedar City, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:35 p.m.

    Continued,

    There is a lot more unknown factors for BYU and Independence.
    7 Games on ESPN next season is a BIG deal. If BYU can manage this with such a lobsided schedule in 2011, just think what the future could hold if BYU can get rid of the cupcakes. Starting in 2013 BYU's schedule will be increasingly impressive and difficult. Because of the national fanbase BYU has, there is an advantage, but its tough to get teams to come to Provo.

    The questions that come with Independence can only really be answered with time. Recruiting will be pretty consistent no matter what. Obviously as exposure and prestige rise, more recruits will give BYU thought.
    As far as getting to a BCS game, its pretty simple. BYU wins, they are in. Reaching 12-0 or 11-1 is the only way.

    The move to Independence is about a lot more than just BYU football, its about exposure for BYU and the LDS Church. Independence puts BYU in a position for more exposure than any member of an AQ conference. With its own HD network, BYU is a pioneer. And many programs are watching and waiting to see what happens.

  • Laser Iowa City, IA
    July 7, 2011 4:35 p.m.

    re: crowton1- Only losers think a national championship is worthless.

    Gotta give the edge to utah if you define long time success by money and security. They won't need to win and will still get the handouts.

    If long term success is defined by potential...it's alway going to be BYU. Teams would love be their won boss but can't afford to do it. Plus the country is your play ground. Other teams will watch the Cougars and if they can pull this off (thanks ESPN), others will follow i.e. Texas (primed already for another raiding of the conference), Oregon, Florida State, Oklahoma and yes deep pockets USC.

  • RepresentBlue West Jordan, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:45 p.m.

    Of course Utah is in a better situation than BYU. They have guaranteed BCS access and money. BYU has no guarantees, but they are in a MUCH better position to control their own destiny than they were in the MWC. They will make more money and have better exposure on ESPN than they could dream of playing on the Mtn. So far their bowl situation has not improved but Holmoe is working on that and has made remarkable achievements in the short time since BYU announced their decision to go independent less than a year ago. As far as BCS access goes, realistically it is about the same. They will have to go undefeated to get an invite - same as it was in the MWC.

  • Tomahawk Red North Salt Lake, UT
    July 7, 2011 4:46 p.m.

    And... another one in the utes' corner. All the people who know what they're talking about give Utah the edge. It's a no brainer.

    While the Y is better off than they were a year ago, Utah is the better positioned of the two.

    If you think being on tv is all that matters in college football, BYU is better off. If you think relevance is, then Utah is better off.

    Utah 2
    BYU 0

  • Utes21 Salt Lake City, ut
    July 7, 2011 4:48 p.m.

    @One Nil to the Arsenal
    Very true even though its cool to see Utah gain more exposure going into the PAC. Swoop just tries to create controversy, I think he is samyg also.
    I think both teams have a lot of talent, Utah has a lot of young players but I still see them having a decent record and making it to a bowl. byu will hopefully do well but I am hoping for a W when they face the Utes.

  • ATC Stockton, CA
    July 7, 2011 4:49 p.m.

    I love the arrogance on both sides, accusing each other of living in the past and thinking in what ifs, both sides are doing it so let it rest. It is too early to decide, it will take years before we can determine the answer, but the important thing is that both teams are better than they were

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 7, 2011 4:55 p.m.

    Hey Y fans, what is the new nifty football t-shirt say this year? I always buy one to wash my Benz with.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 5:22 p.m.

    RE: JEFFE "As far as getting to a BCS game, its pretty simple. BYU wins, they are in. Reaching 12-0 or 11-1 is the only way."

    Has to be 12-0. All four non-AQ teams earned their bid with undefeated seasons.

    Also, per ESPN... if BYU was still in the Mountain West, went undefeated and was the highest ranked of the non-AQs, then the Cougars would get an automatic bid into a BCS game. If the Cougars finish as the highest-ranked non-AQ as an independent, there is no automatic bid.

  • PAC man Anaheim, CA
    July 7, 2011 5:53 p.m.

    Tomahawk Red

    Utah will only be relevant if the Utes win the PAC 12.

    Otherwise, they won't be anymore relevant than Washington State.

    BYU's seven ESPN appearances are guaranteed, regardless of what happens in September.

    Utah's relevance is as fragile as starting the season 1-2 in September (losing to USC and BYU), which everyone knows is not only possible, but likely.

  • --JEFFE-- Cedar City, UT
    July 7, 2011 6:05 p.m.

    Moderate,

    "Has to be 12-0. All four non-AQ teams earned their bid with undefeated seasons."

    It may very well be that BYU would have to go undefeated if they were still member of the MWC or WAC. But as a Independent team with anywhere from 5-10 BCS conference opponents per season, BYU's SOS may be good enough to get them into a BCS-Bowl game with a 1 loss season.

    Consider this.

    Utah '04-'05- Played 3 BCS teams TAMU, Arizona, UNC- 11-0=BCS
    BSU '06-'07- Played 1 BCS team- Oregon St- 12-0=BCS
    Hawaii '07-'08- Played 1 BCS team UW- 12-0=BCS
    Utah '08-'09- Played 2 BCS teams Mich, Oregon St. 12-0=BCS
    TCU '09-'10-Played 2 BCS teams Virginia, Clemson. 12-0=BCS
    BSU '09-'10-Played 1 BCS team Oregon 12-0=BCS
    TCU '10-'11- Played 2 BCS teams Oregon St, Baylor. 12-0=BCS

    In the 2011 season alone BYU plays 5 BCS teams Miss, UT, Utah, OSU, TCU. Add in tough UCF and Hawaii teams.

    11-1=BCS.

    Depending on who the loss is to.

    Just my opinion. :)

  • Chiro Portland, OR
    July 7, 2011 6:08 p.m.

    The question was:
    Who is better positioned for long term success?

    Lets see:

    Money per year:
    byU-7 million
    Utah-31 million
    Edge: Utah

    Bowl game tie in:
    Utah-
    BCS (Rose Bowl, or national championship game if ranked No. 1 or No. 2)
    Alamo vs. Big 12 No. 3
    Holiday vs. Big 12 No. 5
    Sun vs. ACC No. 4
    Maaco Bowl Las Vegas vs. Mountain West champ
    Kraft Fight Hunger vs. Army (if eligible) or ACC No. 9
    New Mexico vs. MWC No. 4/5

    byU-
    Armed force bowl
    Edge: Utah

    2011 Home schedule:
    Utah:
    Montana St.
    Washington
    Arizona State
    Oregon State
    UCLA
    Colorado

    byU:
    Utah
    UCF
    Utah State
    San Jose St.
    Idaho St.
    Idaho
    New Mexico St.

    Edge: Utah

    TV:
    Larry Scott's per John Wilner
    It appears that once the PAC12 network is up and running, every PAC12 football game, including all of the OOC games will be on broadcast media; either ESPN, Fox, FSN, or Pac12 network

    Utah has 12 games on TV and byu will have 7 or 8.
    Edge: Utah

    In review: Utah has the edge with money, bowl tie ins, better home schedule, and TV!!!!!!

    What is the debt here?

  • DevilishUte Tempe, AZ
    July 7, 2011 6:09 p.m.

    "Utah's relevance is as fragile as starting the season 1-2 in September (losing to USC and BYU), which everyone knows is not only possible, but likely."

    I disagree. Even if Utah loses both of those games, which may happen, they could still have a respectable season and even be playing for a relevant bowl appearance in January.

    Conversely, if BYU starts out slow, which is just as likely as the scenario you've outlined above, it's over for BYU. Just because the game is on TV, doesn't mean people will watch or care and that will be even more true should BYU start out slowly. Besides BYU fans, no one is watching the Idaho, Idaho St., SJSU, NMSU games. Not even the fans from these schools will be watching because the outcome is already certain (yes, I just complimented BYU).

  • COUGARNATE Lyman, WY
    July 7, 2011 6:15 p.m.

    My name says it all I am a Cougar fan, but right now utah has it better, because they have access to a BCS Bowl if they win their conference (won't happen for a while, if ever though, look at Arizona, never been to the Rose Bowl). However if BYU makes it into a automatic qualifying conference, then it will be the same as always BYU will be better off.

  • donburi Oceanside, CA
    July 7, 2011 6:27 p.m.

    I agree with Mandel except for his use of the work "panicky". Utah has the edge, but both teams did the best they could considering the options they had. I wish them both the best. It will be interesting to see how it turns out in 5-10 years.

  • Portland Trail Blazers Sandy, UT
    July 7, 2011 6:28 p.m.

    The only stat that matters that has not been brought up yet... Championships.

    BYU - 1
    Utah - 0

    Honestly, tell me who won the Fiesta bowl in 2003. Tell me who won the Fiesta bowl in 2004 or 2007. Tell me who won the Fiesta bowl in 2009. Tell me who won the Sugar bowl in 2008. Tell me who won the Sugar Bowl in 2009. Tell me who won the Orange Bowl in 2008.

    Nobody remembers, and nobody cares! If you ask who won the championship in any year, everyone knows that question.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 6:36 p.m.

    RE: JEFFE "In the 2011 season alone BYU plays 5 BCS teams Miss, UT, Utah, OSU, TCU."

    Pretty sure TCU is not a BCS team.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 7, 2011 6:37 p.m.

    Money per year:
    byU-7 million
    Utah-31 million
    Edge: Utah

    Utah won't make more than $2m in 2011.
    BYU will make over $10m.
    Edge: BYU

    Even when Utah starts raking in a full share in 2014, it won't be anywhere close to $31m and Utah will have to spend every dime on new facilities and coaches salaries just to try to close the gap on the rest of the PAC 12 which, besides Washington State, is already light years ahead of the Utes in facilities.

    The bright side for Utah is after a couple of 7-5 seasons, fan interest will wane and the Utes won't have spend any of their loot to expand RES.

  • donburi Oceanside, CA
    July 7, 2011 6:39 p.m.

    @Chiro-

    Actually all BYU games will be on TV. Any not on ESPN will be on BYUtv, including rebroadcasting rites for all.

    Besides, you are comparing this year's BYU TV coverage with future TV coverage for Utah. Utah TV coverage this year will be minimal.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    July 7, 2011 6:45 p.m.

    "BYU's seven ESPN appearances are guaranteed, regardless of what happens in September"

    PAC Man,

    Seven ESPN appearances are only guaranteed THIS YEAr. Lose is September and byu will be down to only 3 games next year.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 7, 2011 6:46 p.m.

    DevilishUte

    Don't kid yourself. If Utah starts the season 1-2, there's no way they're going win the PAC 12 South, let alone the PAC 12 championship.

    Mathematically it would still be possibly. Realistically, not a chance.

    BYU is going to have a very exciting offense this year, so casual fans are going to watch, even if BYU stumbles early.

    Utah has Wynn -- need we say more.

  • --JEFFE-- Cedar City, UT
    July 7, 2011 6:52 p.m.

    Chiro,

    "Utah has 12 games on TV and byu will have 7 or 8."

    These are very selective statistics my friend. I am not sure where you get your facts but I am more than happy to correct them for you.

    National Televised games in 2011-
    Utah-2 -- 1 game on ESPN thanks to BYU. 1 game on Fox regional.
    BYU-12 --Including at least 7 games on ESPN. likely 8 with Oregon St. The remaining 4 will all be available on HD BYUtv. Every future BYU game will be on National television.

    Edge- BYU

    Moderate,

    "Pretty sure TCU is not a BCS team"

    Pretty sure they just accepted an invitation to join the Big East as full members starting in 2012. So TCU is every bit as much of a BCS team as Utah, who will not be a full member of the PAC-12 until 2014. And TCU is better than pretty much any BCS team. So I am pretty sure you can go ahead and count them.

  • Just the FAX Olympus Cove, Utah
    July 7, 2011 7:00 p.m.

    hedgie

    Three ESPN games, worst case scenario for BYU, would still be three more than Utah is guaranteed.

    The difference between an exclusive contract and a conference contract is, just like this year, ESPN can fulfill its contract with the PAC 12 without ever scheduling a single Utah game.

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    July 7, 2011 7:03 p.m.

    Okay

    Two years ago, who looked better off in the short term and the long run, BYU or Oklahoma?

    Heck, 2008, you choose: Utah or Alabama?

    Look, kids, I'm not blind. Utah was given a better deal; BYU had to make something for themselves. But in the end, it's all about what happens on the field. I know because you have told me so.

    Boise has been the poster child, with ESPN's help, of making bricks without straw. Now it's BYU's turn.

    U got the better opportunity. I think BYU will make more of it.

    And unrealistic expectations? I know, it's trite, but better to aim for the moon and miss, than aim for a cow pie and hit.

  • Ernest T. Bass Bountiful, UT
    July 7, 2011 7:06 p.m.

    Byu totally for sure. If refs called fumbles write we would really win more championships. You guys just wait with our humbleness and ability to be better we will be blessed with way more wins.

  • Moderate Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 7:26 p.m.

    RE: JEFFE
    "go ahead and count TCU" as BCS. That is classic. I gotta forward that one.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 7, 2011 7:26 p.m.

    Given the 4 criteria recruiting, exposure, wins, BCS access Utah would have an advantage in BCS access.

    Utah should eventually have an advantage in revenues but that could change depending on how much revenue BYU TV can raise directly/indirectly.

    Utah is now on par with AZ/AZ State more or less. Would you rather be BYU or one of the AZ schools?

    There really is not much change in Utah's recruiting appeal but they are going more directly head to head with the rest of the PAC.

    BYU's recruiting is going to improve dramatically and especially nationally and among non members.

    BYU's exposure dramatically improves. In the long run BYU's exposure is better than Utah's. Utah's effective exposure will be mainly regional and confinded to the PAC area. BYU's will be national and international.

    BYU can control its wins simply by the strength of scheduling. Utah is going to lose more games than they would in the Mountain.

    Utah might back into a 2/3 way tie for the South and eke into the Rose. BYU has to win for a BCS bowl.

    Utah has what they crave, a place in the PAC. BYU has exposure and freedom.

  • sammyg Springville, UT
    July 7, 2011 7:29 p.m.

    @ Utes21

    Swoop = "I think he is samyg also"

    That's funny! Paranoia, multiple identities, conspiracy theorists... oh you Ute fans are hilarious.

    Long term... BYU has more potential.

    Utes will be stuck in a conference playing the same ol' NCAA sanctioned teams.

  • Bo Jangles Meridian, ID
    July 7, 2011 7:33 p.m.

    @ Just FAX

    Actually, you need to check your facts. Just last week DesNews ran an article confirming Utah would receive ~$31MM when fully vested in the new TV deal... that's not including bowl revenues which will push Utah to the upper $30MM range.

    I don't have time to reference the article for you but if you go back in the DN archives you'll find it

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 7, 2011 7:38 p.m.

    BYU will have a pretty good offense.....good QB and a great O line, but that is not their problem. They DO NOT have the defensive team speed to compete on a national level. And, because of social issues, they cannot recruit those types of players. When Utah went undefeated in 04' and 08' it was because they had a shut-down defense. BYU always has been an offensive minded school, literally and figuratively, but that is why they've hardly ever been competitive in football or basketball on the national stage. Y fans can cheer all they want and/or speculate as they always do......ridiculously most of the time. But, D wins in the big time, not offense......in almost every sport.

  • T-Mac Meridian, ID
    July 7, 2011 7:43 p.m.

    I'm a Utah fan first but also enjoy following the Cougars.

    If BYU loses a game or two early in the season, there seems to be very little to keep fans motivated to continue following the Cougars since there is no conference championship to play for, no decent bowl game potential, and a weak October & November home schedule.

    If Utah is 0-4 at the end of September my interest would wane for sure, but a 2-2 record come Oct 1 and there's still hope for a decent season and a reason to continuing following the team.

  • BYUalum South Jordan, UT
    July 7, 2011 7:43 p.m.

    Bottom line for me: I bought my season tickets for MY team, the BYU Cougars.

    I could care less about what Utah does and will not watch any of their games regardless of who they play at the higher priced ticket.

    This is all speculation as to who is better and worse anyway. Who really cares? We will each go our own way and cheer for our own team. Let it be.

    Go Cougars!

  • Veritas Aequitas Fruit Heights, UT
    July 7, 2011 7:44 p.m.

    Mind if I just wait it out and watch for the next 5-10 years?

    Either way, both teams are better off.

    (Serious, the Des News knows how to milk a headline for advertising. What variation of the same story, bringing out the same comments, will appear tomorrow?)

  • CougFaninTX Frisco, TX
    July 7, 2011 7:47 p.m.

    Let's start by saying both BYU and Utah are better positioned than they were in the MWC.

    BYU's future is more risky but also carries greater rewards. Utah's future is less risky for sure.

    But winning is the key for both programs. Even on short notice, BYU's schedule is improved dramatically over their MWC schedule. Four AQ teams plus TCU, UCF and Hawaii are respectable. And unlike Utah we'll continue to play in-state rival USU. The SOS for those 8 games is higher than any top 8 games we had in the MWC. And the four cupcakes we play in 2011 aren't much different than WY, NM, UNLV and CSU from previous years.

    I'm guessing 2012's schedule will be comparable to 2011 with 4 or 5 WAC games. However, in 2013 and beyond, BYU's schedule will rival most BCS schedules - with 2 WAC games (USU and Hawaii), 2 MWC games (Boise State and Air Force) and 8 AQ teams from various conferences. If BYU can win 9, 10, 11 or 12 games consistently; fan support will stay strong and ESPN will continue to generate exposure which will lead to increased talent, more wins, and ongoing success. Go Cougs!

  • BYU DUDE Provo, UT
    July 7, 2011 7:49 p.m.

    When BYU win's and Utah loses on September 17 the Answer will be BYU this year. It is a Question that will be asked for Years to come.

    BYU will stand Tall and watch Utah take the Big Fall.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 7, 2011 8:08 p.m.

    Panic is hilarious. The rebuilding year forced Mendenhal to make coaching changes that should have been made when BYU was going 10-2 in previous years.

    BYU coaching is now very young but the inexperience will change with time.

    BYU has yet to demonstate they have solved the WR and especially the TE problems from last year. Until they get production out of the TEs and WR who can actually catch the offense will not be great.

    The defense is going to be better. The dbacks are still a question.

    BYU should have a better record than Utah this year. Time will tell.

    If I wanted to emulate Chris I would predict a 2-10 season for the Utes. Montana State is the only gimme on thier schedule.

    It probably won't happen but it could.

    BYU on the other hand should do no worse than bowl eligible with no more than 4 to 6 losses.

    If I were a Ute fan I would be very worried about next years schedule with all of the graduation losses from an over achieving team that crumbled late last year.

  • Mid-Major Cougars San Diego, CA
    July 7, 2011 8:10 p.m.

    @mgr63
    ...Hey Y fans, what is the new nifty football t-shirt say this year? I always buy one to wash my Benz with...

    "Fragile! Handle with care!" will be the new slogan on the t-shirt for 2011-2012 BYU team.

  • SUNNY ALL DAY Saint George, UT
    July 7, 2011 8:25 p.m.

    PTB

    "The only stat that matters is Championships".

    I'm glad you have made the number of National Championships the sine qua non of all football related stats.

    Notre Dame 13 National Championships.

    Army 5 National Championships.

    BYU 1 National Championship.

    Navy 0 National Championships.

    BYU is #3 as a member of the Independent 1.3.

    For BYU to be considered the Notre Dame of the West, they only have to win 12 more National Championships in Football.

    Notre Dame 13
    BYU 1

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    July 7, 2011 8:29 p.m.

    "Three ESPN games, worst case scenario for BYU, would still be three more than Utah is guaranteed"

    Just the fax,

    Easy little buddy, just simply trying to bring a pinch of reality to you folks down south. Byu needs to win NOW.

  • Owl Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 8:30 p.m.

    Neither one is going out of business. Who cares what the pundits have to say? They're paid to create news when none exists.

  • Brettski2024 Concord, CA
    July 7, 2011 8:32 p.m.

    Utah without question. End of story

  • Mid-Major Cougars San Diego, CA
    July 7, 2011 8:40 p.m.

    BYU has the edge --it has state-of-the-art replay technology.

  • sciencepete Provo, UT
    July 7, 2011 8:50 p.m.

    @mgr63
    "...Hey Y fans, what is the new nifty football t-shirt say this year? I always buy one to wash my Benz with..."

    Glad to see you support BYU football enough to buy their merchandise. How very supportive of you!

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 8:58 p.m.

    Where the move could pay off for BYU is what will likely happen to the Big-12 in the next 6-12 months, since they could decide their league with only 10 schools is too diluted. As it stands the Big-12 will be a distant 4th to the SEC, BIG-Ten and now the Pac-12 when they were on par with the top 2 for many years. For starters adding BYU will help push them back towards those top 3 rather than just staying a Texas and Oklahoma away from the ACC and Big-East, and give the conference the boost similar to what adding Penn State did to the BIG-Ten back in 1993. By bolting the MWC, BYU knew they could make the right impression on Big-12 presidents once they got over Nebraskas departure. I think officials at TCU knew BYU had the angle for the Big-12 over them when this happens which is why they jumped at the chance of going to the Big-East last November. The speculation is BYU and Louisville to the Big-12 sooner than later.

  • SLC BYU Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 9:02 p.m.

    @Owl:

    BYU going out of business?

    Ever been to Rexburg?

  • philaD Clifton Heights, PA
    July 7, 2011 9:11 p.m.

    bottom line, no one knows and it won't be sorted out for years to come.

    It's a good question. Just a few years or decades too early.

  • Hawk Littleton, CO
    July 7, 2011 9:25 p.m.

    Interesting how an objective observer -- a recognized subject matter expert -- recognizes a short term advantage to BYU and a slight long term advantage to Utah, yet all of the ute fan "experts" emphatically state that "obviously", "no debate", "no question" utah hands down has the advantage. Hmmm. Let's see how it plays out. Outside the Wasatch front, it seems to still be pretty debatable.

  • Mountainman56 Alpine, UT
    July 7, 2011 10:00 p.m.

    T-Mac

    You're clearly not a BYU fan and not much of a Utah fan either. A real fan is not going to stop following their team just because they have a slow start to their season. BYU had plenty of fan support last year in spite of a slow start and will continue to have support in the future - win or lose. Clearly that's one of the big differences between BYU and Utah.

  • UteRealist South Jordan, UT
    July 7, 2011 10:03 p.m.

    As a huge Ute fan, I realize that we might take our lumps the first few years. Most of the teams in the PAC still see us as weak MWC team and want to show their dominance. Our lack of depth willl start showing about half way through the season. The backups need to get better. Not nervous about our line or linebackers but am nervous that our db's, receivers, and running backs will show their age. We will get better and will never be seen as Colorado or Washington State.

  • Hellooo Salt Lake City, UT
    July 7, 2011 10:09 p.m.

    With regard to the bleacher report, the only team that I know that has more unrealistic expectations than BYU fans are Utah fans, and the Utah media. The U atheletic director knows the move means the U is farther behind the conference competition in $ than it was in the MWC, even with the new PAC-12 TV contract. And, the recruiting edge, really, now the U has to compete for atheletes with the rest of the PAC-12 in their backyard. Unless, they become the conference powerhouse, why will they kids come to the U over the local teams. Still we get the same as always. Not a Y fan, but they can schedule a trip to a BCS game every three to five years if the want to. It is there schedule and all they need to do is follow the Hawaii model. This is the way if will go for the Y in independence year 2011 8-4, yr 2012 9-3 and year 2013 12-0. And, then repeat over and over again. It is easy, if the Y schedules the way the should.

  • Mountainman56 Alpine, UT
    July 7, 2011 10:11 p.m.

    Bugoff

    I'm surprised that there haven't been more comments on here about the claim that Bronco's coaching moves were panicky but you hit the nail on the head. These are changes that should have been made sooner and it's exactly because of those changes that I have great confidence in BYU's on field success. We will see changes in attitude, intensity, and effort as well as strategy, game planning and play calling. There will be some rough spots for sure but overall, I'm confident that we will see a vastly improved team this year and that's not even considering the added experience of our many young players. The future looks bright!

  • Mountainman56 Alpine, UT
    July 7, 2011 10:16 p.m.

    Hedgie

    Thanks for your tremendous service in bringing a "pinch of reality to you folks down south". What would we do without you? We look forward to your continued obsession with all things BYU.

  • Mountainman56 Alpine, UT
    July 7, 2011 10:29 p.m.

    Mgr63

    BYU has hardly ever been competitive in football or basketball on the national stage? Seriously? You must live in a different world than the rest of us. How many times has BYU football finished in the top 25? How many times has BYU basketball received NCAA tourney invites? I'm pretty sure that the rest of the country would consider those criteria as being competitive on the national stage.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    July 7, 2011 10:30 p.m.

    Even with the odds against them, BYU will win a national championship or BCS bowl before the utes. It's just that simple.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 7, 2011 10:42 p.m.

    Utah: won 1 MWC championship under Kyle and now they are talking Pac12 title? Keep dreaming. Utes will be lucky to be bowl eligible this season.
    BYU: 7 guaranteed games on ESPN, I just downloaded the new BYU TV app foe my iPhone so I can watch BYU football games on my phone or iPad or computer or TV! Do we even know if ute fans can watch their first football game?

    Go Cougars!

  • crowntown1 Corona, CA
    July 7, 2011 10:57 p.m.

    So now you can lose on ESPN.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 7, 2011 11:18 p.m.

    @crowntown1 "So now you can lose on ESPN."

    Or we can win on ESPN. Unfortunately, neither you nor I can predict the future. However, I CAN guarantee you that USC isn't winning a PAC 12, or national, championship next year...I guess cheaters never do prosper, do they? :)

    Go Cougars!

  • IndeMak South Jordan, UT
    July 7, 2011 11:22 p.m.

    What do national writers know? BYU should win most their games as we simply outmatch most teams with superior talent.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 7, 2011 11:24 p.m.

    Utah has a high risk, high reward situation. They can back into winning the South and then get lucky in the playoff. Utah is very good at winning one big game. That could get them into a Rose Bowl.

    That is the easy high reward part. On the other hand, Utah will have a devil of a time winning a national championship from the PAC. They would have to duplicate OR's success without Nike pushing them or paying for their players. Then they would have to beat an Auburn type team to become NCs.

    The other high risk is going 3-6 or 4-5 in the PAC. That risk is fairly high on any given year. Utah will have some good years in the PAC but how are they going to get the talent to dominate the PAC the way USC, OR or even STAN/CAL?

    The idea that BYU is slow is laughable. Ask OK coaches about that. Ask the coaches of speedy Utah for that matter. BYU has game speed and that is what counts. Further, they are getting faster rapidly.

    Park the old cliches and nonsense about BYU. Utah has nothing on BYU.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 7, 2011 11:40 p.m.

    Football for BYU is part of the missionary effort. It costs the church 25 million a year in direct missionary costs not to mention the indirect costs of running the mission homes, providing training and supplies, travel, fleets and other missionary related costs. Add on the advertising costs of the Church ad campaigns and you have a lot more expense.

    If BYU makes money on football that is helpful. However, it is the exposure that is crucial. Every rating point of BYU football is exposure the church does not have to pay for. BYU football becomes part of the mulitimedia campaign. It becomes a topic that opens up doors to guys who are a primary target market for the church. If BYU plays in the mission field it fires up the members in the mission field. Football independence has a synergistic effect on the missionary work that staying in the MTN could never create.

    That is why independence is so important. It moves BYU football out of the intermountain area (where few watch the games anyway) into all of the world.

    The BCS is secondary. The exposure is the primary goal and independence is one of the means.

  • Seattleview Federal Way, WA
    July 8, 2011 12:50 a.m.

    Utah certainly has the edge because they in effect have the support of a conference who is promoting them (if they do well).

    It is a good case to watch to see how two very similar teams go in different directions when one is "given" more money, exposure and opportunity. THe BCS model.

    In the end BYU will make progress in the areas that they feel are important and Utah will do better in money brought in and over the long term probably more success in reaching BCS type games etc.

    Oh, and with regard to unreasonable expectations of the fans, BYU is the clear leader.

  • truthsandwich RANDOLPH, UT
    July 8, 2011 12:56 a.m.

    The Des News is just going to keep milking the clicks out of every possible variation of this headline aren't they?

    The answer to the question is obvious, but this hardcore Ute fan isn't rubbing anything in. BYU made a good move, and I expect them to be successful with their new situation, which will be good for the state as a whole.

  • Utah'95 FPO, AE
    July 8, 2011 1:03 a.m.

    The real value of this article is that it gives us an outsider's look at what we overanalyze, often poorly, every single day with our comments.

    If I said what Stewart Mandel said, many of you BYU fans would immediately dismiss my comments with, "you're just a BYU hater." But Mandel has no dog in this fight. He is approaching the discussion with logic rather than emotion.

    The same can be said of the Bleacher Report's article on fanbases with the most unreal expectations.

    For what it's worth, here's my opinion.

    Utah has the better position. Pac-12 membership, or perhaps Big-12 membership, is what every MWC and WAC team dreams of getting.

    I respect BYU for having the confidence to go against the grain and become a football independent. Most teams wouldn't have a chance of success doing that, but BYU's unique situation will probably allow it to work for the Cougars.

    I hope both teams have good seasons, and that my Utes win again in LES in September!

  • regis Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 1:23 a.m.

    I'm rooting for Utah, but already feeling some disillusionment at what being in a BCS conference means: MONEY!

    Yeah, it's great to be in line for $30 million in yearly TV revenue. But when you need to spend double or triple that amount just to keep up with your conference peers, it makes you wonder if it's such a great deal after all.

    Money in sports, and particularly in college sports, is getting to be an ugly thing.

  • cougarNV Las Vegas, NV
    July 8, 2011 1:23 a.m.

    Bugoff @ 11:40 is right on with his opinion. The priority for BYU is different from the schools of the world.

  • Classless Ute Fan Magna, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:52 a.m.

    Seriously, how many commentators actually read the SI article that this story is referring to?

    The question was brought up by Dave from Provo, UT and was being addressed by Stewart Mandel from Sports Illustrated. And Dave asks to set aside money differences (cause he already knows that Utah wins there).

    @Hellooo
    the recruiting edge, really, now the U has to compete for athletes with the rest of the PAC-12 in their backyard.

    Yeah, what's new? Oh yeah, Utah won't loose their prospects because they weren't part of a power conference.

    Why will they kids come to the U over the local teams?

    Great coaches, awesome teammates, winning tradition...

    Not a Y fan, but they can schedule a trip to a BCS game every three to five years if the want to.

    Really, not a Y fan? could have fooled me. Seriously, a BCS game every 3-5 years? like the way they have for the last 12? LOL seriously?

  • USportsFan Magna, UT
    July 8, 2011 5:19 a.m.

    @Bugoff,

    BYU should have a better record than Utah this year.

    Why is that?
    Because Utah has a new OQ and new offense? (Doesn't BYU also?)
    Because BYU is playing easier teams to beat? (Very possibly)
    Because BYU's receivers finally learned to catch more than 1/2 the passes to them?
    Because BYU was able to actually win games at the end of the season against the horrible MWC teams? (That doesn't really mean that BYU improved as much as it means that they just played inferior opponents at the end of the season.)
    Because at the Blue and White game, BYU's offense looked good? (That may just mean that the defense wasn't any good.)
    Jake played better than Jordan at the end of the season? (Again, easy opponents and Jordan was injured. Playing against a healthy Wynn will be much harder than anticipated.)

    I fail why BYU fans think that their 7-6 team is going to be so much greater than Utah and (fingers crossed) might win every game this year. Reality is, statistically Utah leads BYU in games won, winning %, head 2 head games, conference championships, undefeated seasons, bowl victories, and current NFL players.

  • SoCalUtahFan Utesville, CA
    July 8, 2011 5:35 a.m.

    @crowntown1
    ...So now you can lose on ESPN...

    and in HD...

  • financenco Salt Lake City, UT
    July 8, 2011 6:33 a.m.

    It is too early to tell who will turn out better. I would have to give edge at BYU though for the following reasons: Stadium. BYU has edge in attendance. Utah could fill up every home game, but it is still over 20,000 short of what BYU can do. It will cost them more, and will have to upgrade stadium. Exsposure. Who will people want to see the most, USC, UCLA, Oregon, Washington, or Utes? Other than UTE fans. They might get lucky as USC gets a but kicking from the NCAA, but their fan base will still support them. BYU having their own network, plus linking with ESPN, hmm. BYU won't have to rely on only CA for Recruits either. Having Utah share with 11 other schools, also can come in tricky, as they most likely argue over who gets what amount. You can't have an edge in coaching, as both programs have great coaches. BYU changing coaches isn't a panic thing, every organization goes through changes.

  • DC Alexandria, VA
    July 8, 2011 7:09 a.m.

    I haven't read the article or the comments on this board (but I can imagine what they're like), but as a BYU fan, I have to say that Utah is better positioned for the future, if all things stay the same. They're in a BCS conference, they will be improving their facilities with increasing revenues, and they can recruit anyone from anywhere (not trying to knock them, just saying that there is an obvious impediment to who BYU can recruit compared to Utah).
    I like BYU's chances this year, but they have to be playing for a spot in the Big 12. If that invite never comes, I have to believe it will get more difficult for BYU in the future.

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    July 8, 2011 7:42 a.m.

    If BYU had stayed in the MWC and won the conference championship; we would have had the privilege to play a fifth place Pac-12 team, perhaps Utah. I would certainly say BYU is better off independent regardless how many games we win.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 8:02 a.m.

    SLC BYU Fan,

    I appreciate your advocacy for BYU joining the Big 12-2 conference. It would be the logical move for BYU. However, Texas AD DeLoss Dodds told Chip Brown of Orangebloods last September that the Big 12-2 will not expand without Notre Dame and he was very emphatic about it. So, BYU is probably waiting for Notre Dame to make a move. BYU AD Holmoe and Texas AD Dodds have had regular communication about games and schedules and I am sure Holmoe understands Dodds' position about expansion which is why Holmoe has maintained that BYU's relationship with the WCC is a long term affair. And we all know who controls the Big 12-2 and it is clearly Texas.

  • TJ Eagle Mountain, UT
    July 8, 2011 8:06 a.m.

    I believe Utah is in a better position as far as being secure goes. I believe that BYU is in a better position as far as potential of how far they can go with their current situation. More risk and more potential for BYU. BYU's goal is not money(even though they get a bunch) and they are already financially secure. Their goal is exposure and they have increased that 10X with their TV deal and playing all over the country. The added exposure will also likely lead to a BCS invite(provided the BCS still exists in it's current form) in the future that BYU will like better than the East coast one that diddn't make sense for them. Speculative but logical. Either way, both teams are much better off than they were in the MWC.

  • Razzle2 Bluffdale, UT
    July 8, 2011 8:45 a.m.

    Utah clearly has made a great move and it starts now.

    BYU's story is not over. Independence is better than the MWC for BYU. But what if...? The MWC gets AQ status if they pull BYU back in? The Big 12 goes to 12 teams with Notre Dame and BYU?

    I know these are both double "if" scenarios but you gotta take big risks for bigger opportunities.

  • OnlyInUtah Cottonwood Heights, UT
    July 8, 2011 9:43 a.m.

    Which is the better fruit: apples or oranges?

    you can't make comparisons because all things are not equal. Time will tell which team makes the most of its situation and most quickly accomplishes their individual goals.

    RE: chicagoborn | 3:34 p.m. July 7, 2011

    It's not a question of "if BYU beats Utah" or even when.. for true cougar fans the only question is the margin of victory over Utah. This year BYU will win by 28 pts.

  • Starfarer Mesa, AZ
    July 8, 2011 9:58 a.m.

    I don't care about utah. Not one bit.

    I don't care what conference they are in. I don't care who they recruit. I don't care what their previous achievements are. I don't care who their coach is. I don't care if they get more money.

    The only thing I do care about that involves utah is I hate their trolls that have such an inferiority complex that they have to try to convince everyone that BYU is less than utah.

    I realize that this is an article that shows up on both schools pages and I am not talking about this string.

    If utah is so much better, let it stand for itself. Let it speak for itself. Go off with your hypocritical money, and your second rate status in the PAC10.2, and wins some games, make a name for yourself that is worthy of the invite. (And of the imaginary bloating you always refer to.)

    But don't come to BYU pages to beat your chest and tell us your better, because your words and actions in posting on BYU comments prove otherwise.

    You can't convince yourself by convincing others.

  • Starfarer Mesa, AZ
    July 8, 2011 10:00 a.m.

    ...And I could care less if we ever played utah again.

    We gain nothing by playing utah.

  • Utes = Cougars' Big Brothers Utesville, CA
    July 8, 2011 10:08 a.m.

    @Starfarer
    ...And I could care less if we ever played utah again.
    We gain nothing by playing utah....

    ...And a BCS team playing mid-major team like BYU is regarded same as mid-major playing Division-1AA team...

  • Mid-Major Cougars San Diego, CA
    July 8, 2011 10:18 a.m.

    @Starfare
    And I could care less if we ever played utah again.
    We gain nothing by playing utah.

    That's right. You lose when playing Utah --especially the game.

  • worf Mcallen, TX
    July 8, 2011 10:19 a.m.

    In the past thirty five years, who has the most victories and highest attendance? It's just that simple!

  • DevilishUte Tempe, AZ
    July 8, 2011 10:58 a.m.

    Star Gaze-

    We're sick of your tired story about not caring for anything Utah. Why do you continually post the same diatribe again and again about Utah? If Utah is from far your heart, why is it always on the tip of your tongue? You know, you could ignore Utah fans and move along to discuss all things BYU quite easily.

    worf -

    The question does not ask for historical success, which favors Utah (see historical head-to-head results). It asks a forward-looking question.

  • Starfarer Mesa, AZ
    July 8, 2011 11:04 a.m.

    It's laughable that utes call BYU a mid major.

    What are you?

    Do you all of a sudden change that you are in the PAc10.2?

    You can take the girlfriend out of the ghetto, but you can't ever take the ghetto out of the girlfriend.

    utah is a mid major, just with a different address.

    I am fine with BYU status, independence, and money.

    the question is, why are you still arguing with me? Why do you feel so bad about yourself that you have to put others down?

    We will see who is better on the field.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 8, 2011 11:55 a.m.

    @UsportsFan

    Last year in spite of being dismal on defense early, BYU ended up better on defense than Utah as far as national ranking on defense.

    BYU's defense should be better this year. BYU's offense should be somewhat better this year than last year's.

    Utah lost a lot of good players. They have a harder overall schedule.

    The odds are in favor of BYU having the better record. Utah could go undefeated. So could BYU. The odds are against both.

  • Mid-Major Cougars San Diego, CA
    July 8, 2011 11:57 a.m.

    @Starfarer
    ...Do you all of a sudden change that you are in the PAc10.2?...

    Duh...
    Where have you been?

    Utah has been at BCS level team since 2004.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 8, 2011 11:59 a.m.

    There is good reason to believe both Utah and BYU will get better given time in their new arrangements.

    The money will improve Utah eventually.
    BYU should improve recruiting quickly within a year or two.

  • RSL1 Washington, UT
    July 8, 2011 12:23 p.m.

    There is no national championship in college football. Therefore all BCS bowls are meaningless in a competition sense. BCS games are just money giveaways for rich conferences. The Rose bowl should be renamed the PAC12 Money Giveaway Bowl. Why not call it what it really is?

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 8, 2011 12:34 p.m.

    Last year BYU started out badly against some fairly strong teams. Then they fixed some of the defensive problems and went with one young QB. They played better against weaker opponents later in the season.

    Utah ganged up on cream puffs early and then got their helmets handed to them against better opponents later. There is good reason to believe this year's Utah team is not better than last years and may be weaker. However, this years schedule is much stronger. There are not a lot of cream puffs.

    Being in the PAC carries no respect unless you win. I do not respect Washington State, Iowa State, Northwestern or most of the Big East/ACC for that matter. Just because they are in BCS conferences does not make them better than BSU or BYU.

    Being in the PAC raises expectations but it does not automatically make you better.

    Being in the PAC cuts both ways. You have to produce or you are just another tackling dummy prop for the real BCS powers.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 1:05 p.m.

    @mid major
    "Utah has been at BCS level team since 2004"

    Duh...you've been there twice in 100+ yrs but never good enough to win it all. Nobody cares who finishes 2nd, except Ute fans (apparently). It's about winning championships. You don't see Ohio State, Texas, Alabama, Florida, etc bragging and patting themselves on the backs about taking 2nd or 4th place.

    Actually win something besides Girls Gymnastics and then we'll talk.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 1:40 p.m.

    @Usportsfan
    "BYU should have a better record than Utah this year. Why is that?"

    Doman isn't a new coach at BYU and isn't overhauling the offense. BYU still runs a pro-style offense. Chow otoh is bringing in a super complex pro-style offense and scrapping the spread offense that Utah has run since Urban Meyer. It takes time to learn and you can scrap this year since Wynn is still trying to recover from his shoulder boo-boo.

    BYU's WR's have learned to catch but based on last springs game, apparently Utah's WR's haven't learned how.

    BYU did beat up horrible MWC teams but what that shows is a true freshman QB (Jake Heaps) beat those teams every bit as bad as senior, NFL ready QB's like John Beck and Max Hall did in recent years on teams that won 10-11 games and were ranked in the top 15-20. Heaps will be in the Heisman conversation this year.

    Jordan Wynn has yet to play an even mediocre game against BYU's defense. Mendenhall owns Wynn and this year will be even worse (since Wynn can't throw longer than 40 yrds anymore). Good luck with that!

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 1:48 p.m.

    Starfarer,

    A huge dust storm blew through the Phoenix area the other day. I hope you didn't breathe in too much of it. Anyway, I am sure you could keep yourself busy washing cars or cleaning swimming pools. There is so much to do rather than hanging around this comment board.

  • the REAL DEAL Sandy, UT
    July 8, 2011 1:57 p.m.

    If they both win they'll both be fine. What us fans think doesn't mean a thing. I'm happy that Utah is in the PAC 12. I'm a Utah fan. I can talk trash with the best of them and argue why the UTES are better than byu. It still doesn't matter. All that matters is how the coaches coach and how the players practice and perform on the field. The UTES should do well. It will be fun to watch.

  • Judge Smailes Cedar Hills, UT
    July 8, 2011 2:02 p.m.

    Who cares who is in a better situation? I love college football and hope to watch great games at both stadiums with great teams coming to the state! It's better than the MWC!

  • Chris Bryant SLC, UT
    July 8, 2011 2:04 p.m.

    "There is good reason to believe this year's Utah team is not better than last years and may be weaker."

    You don't really follow Utah football do you, Bugoff? Then again, you are the same guy who was claiming that the jazz would instantly improve without coach sloan, so maybe its your judgement that is out of whack. Either way, as a Ute fan, Im happy you take this position. It means the opposite will come to pass.

    BTW, what is BYU's team WP48? What is their chicken nugget pizza efficiency rating?

  • DevilishUte Tempe, AZ
    July 8, 2011 2:04 p.m.

    Hog -

    "you've been there twice in 100+ yrs but never good enough to win it all."

    Yners have only been in the discussion once or twice, as well. 1984 is one of the main reasons for this system. We'll never know whether Utah was good enough to win it all those years. They may have been, but the system prevented us from discovering.

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    July 8, 2011 2:18 p.m.

    @ Worf

    "In the past thirty five years, who has the most victories and highest attendance? It's just that simple!"

    First of all, why are you tracing your victories back to 1976? Why not go back to the beginning of your football history? (1922)

    Since 1922:
    Utah has won 615 games
    byu has won 484 games

    It's just that simple!

    The attendance is obvious because byu has a bigger football stadium, but they don't exceed their full capacity like Utah does.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 2:26 p.m.

    Hedgehog,

    "but never good enough to win it all"

    Utah did win them all in 2004 and 2008 just like BYU did in 1984. BYU got a national championship trophy for their effort Utah did not. Move along.

  • Howhard S Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 2:32 p.m.

    Utah becomes the new Wazzu in the Pac 12. WSU has been to 2 Rose Bowls in the past 75 yrs (haven't won in almost 100 yrs).

    Of course Ute fans with "unrealistic expectations" feel they'll be better than Washington State and more like Oregon State. OK, the Beavers have been to one Rose Bowl in the past 50 yrs (they've won once since 1902). How about Arizona St, Arizona or Cal? ASU has won the Rose Bowl once in 33 yrs, Arizona has never been and Cal hasn't been since 1959 (hasn't won since 1938).

    Even with the new TV contract money Utah's Athletic Dept can only dream of having an athletic budget in the neighborhood of OSU, Cal, ASU or AZ and will instead be on par with Washington State.

    There's a rock-solid reason USC has been to twice as many Rose Bowls as Cal, ASU, AZ, WSU and Ore St combined and won 5 times as many Rose Bowls as they have combined. They can't compete financially. History and economics are against Utah inspite of their fans "Unrealistic Expectations".

    Yessiree, Utah is primed for long term success. Ask WSU fans how great it's been.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 2:45 p.m.

    @pukes = Little Brothers
    "And a BCS team playing mid-major team like BYU is regarded same as mid-major playing Division-1AA team..."

    In spite of being in the Pac 10+2 Utah is still very much a mid-major team and will be treated as such in their new conference for many years to come. You can put lipstick on a pig....

    However Utah does benefit from the generosity of BYU's condescensing to play them, it gives Utah it's only game on national TV this year. Utah is thought of so poorly by their new P12 big brothers that their game with USC was kicked to the curb and will be shown on Versus (regional coverage). Ouch. Even Utah State has more games nationally on ESPN than their trailer park cousins on the hill.

    so....you're welcome.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 2:53 p.m.

    Howhard S,

    I wouldn't be trashing Washington State right now. BYU AD Holmoe was quoted in the Tribune saying that WSU was one of the teams BYU is looking at scheduling in 2013 and/or beyond. Also, it looks like WSU may be demanding a 2 for 1 from BYU meaning BYU plays two games in Pullman and WSU comes once to Provo. Only BCS teams get this kind of deal. All of this is still up in the air but smacking around WSU while your team is trying to get games with them doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

  • DevilishUte Tempe, AZ
    July 8, 2011 3:04 p.m.

    Howhard/Hog

    Can't make up your mind on which fake identity to be?

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 3:12 p.m.

    @DevilishUte
    "We'll never know whether Utah was good enough to win it all those years. They may have been, but the system prevented us from discovering."

    We do know. Utah finished 2nd and 4th. None of the polls picked Utah to be National Champions in either 2004 or 2008. However, every poll unanimously picked BYU to be their National Champs in 1984. If any of the polls felt Utah was worth considering as National Champs they would've picked them. The AP poll did that for USC picking them as National Champs in 2003 even though the BCS poll had LSU as National Champs.

    The BCS system is based solely on rankings and inclusion, not whether a team is "good enough". If it was truely about teams being "good enough" then they wouldn't repeatedly invite 4 or 5 loss teams to play in BCS Bowl games when there are better teams available.

    The only time we'll ever truly know if a team is "good enough" is when the BCS system ceases to be and is replaced with a playoff system.

  • Howhard S Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 3:24 p.m.

    @Dutchman
    And Holmoe was also quoted as saying there are only a few programs they're willing to do a 2 for 1 with and Washington State doesn't make that list. Neither does other bottom feeder Pac10.2 programs like Utah.

    He's stated more than once that doing 2 for 1's aren't in BYU's best interest with the exception of a few programs, like Notre Dame and Texas. Also, it's interesting to note that when you worked out a schedule with Notre Dame, not only did they not feel Utah was worth a 2 for 1, they only gave you a one and done. Same for Big 10 bottom feeder Michigan.

    When you start getting ANY home games with big name OOC opponents, let us know. As for now, you can crow about the "one and done" deal you got with Montana State this year. That Pac 10.2 membership is really paying off for you. woo......hoo.......I'll bet you sell out Rice-Chex stadium for that one!

  • guitarboy South Jordan, UT
    July 8, 2011 3:26 p.m.

    "Mandel gives the overall edge to Utah, calling BYU coach Bronco Mendenhall's massive staff shakeup during the offseason 'panicky.'"

    In summary, nothing that other presumptuous sports fans have not already been wrongly claiming for the past several months.

    The "massive staff shakeup during the offseason..."? You mean, allowing Robert Anae to resign with dignity, promoting Brandon Doman to the OC, and making all the players 300% happier? Is that the "massive staff shakeup during the offseason" this less than insightful SI writer is referring to?

    Robert Anae did a great job as OC, but he was demeaning the players and he needed to go. Those are facts. Ask numerous players, in addition to those who implied this publicly in interviews with the media. Robert Anae is a great coach and will do well in the PAC12 with Arizona - he will learn from the reason why he was put into a position to resign, he will improve, and it is a win-win-win...BYU is better off losing Anae, Arizona is better off gaining Anae, and Anae is better off getting a fresh start and eliminating the behaviors that were demaning and not a model for growth.

  • PAC 12 loves U Sandy, Utah
    July 8, 2011 3:27 p.m.

    @ Hedgehog

    "However Utah does benefit from the generosity of BYU's condescensing to play them, it gives Utah it's only game on national TV this year. Utah is thought of so poorly by their new P12 big brothers that their game with USC was kicked to the curb and will be shown on Versus (regional coverage). Ouch. Even Utah State has more games nationally on ESPN than their trailer park cousins on the hill."

    byu does benefit from the generosity of Utah coming down to Provo this year, giving byu it's only marquee game at home this year. Utah State's home venue is more desirable for season ticket holders than season ticket holders down in Happy Valley OUCH!

    So.... You're Welcome!

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 3:35 p.m.

    Howard S,

    AD Holmoe did not mention WSU by name as one he would not do the 2 for 1. Let's see, BYU plays 4 games at Notre Dame and Notre Dame comes to Provo twice and those have not even been scheduled yet. It is good for BYU to play Notre Dame and I am happy for the cougs so why don't you tone it down and stop trashing Utah and the PAC 12. It is very disingenuous to trash a conference you have dreamed for decades of joining and would join today if invited.

  • Tommy2Shoes Lehi, UT
    July 8, 2011 3:37 p.m.

    The future is a blank sheet ready to be written. Y will do it without affiliation to a league, Udders have attached themselves to the cash cow known as PAC 12. Good for U. Now do something in your new league. The Y must now schedule better teams starting in 2013. Now the Y must beat all comers if they want national respect. Boise has done it, Udders too, and TCU also. It has been so long since the Y did that the modern generation doesn't much care about it. Camp opens in a few weeks and both teams will be tested soon. It will be fun to see which team meets their challenges and which falters. It is udderly senseless for the great unwashed to look into their not so crystal balls and predict the unknown. College football is not the final frontier rather a passing fancy.

  • DevilishUte Tempe, AZ
    July 8, 2011 3:41 p.m.

    "Same for Big 10 bottom feeder Michigan."

    Hog/How/whomever-the-heck-he-is is losing it. Utah has played in the Big House twice recently (won one and lost the other by 3) and Michigan is not a bottom feeder, despite having been down for a few years.

  • idaho cougar fan Twin Falls, ID
    July 8, 2011 3:59 p.m.

    Utah moved for more money and better access to the BCS. BYU moved for more money and more national exposure. Holmoe knew going indy meant BYU's chances for BCS was going to be just as hard as it was in the MWC, but they made more money that they get to keep themselves. If BYU wins games, the exposure will help the church and in turn help their recruiting even more. In 3-5 years I see more high profile LDS recruits (Manti Te'o and from all over, not just West)taking a look at BYU as well as these kids from Cali, Florida and Texas who are not LDS, but have high Christian standards. BYU will have top 40 recruting classes year in and year out in a few years. Utah might as well, but only if they can be a top 2 or 3 in the Pac-12. If they become mediocre, they become like WSU, OSU, UA and CU.(BCS schools who are very rarely ranked in top 50 of recruiting.)

  • Papa Smurf UTE Herriman, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:03 p.m.

    Portland Trail Blazers,

    Who won the National Championship in 1976, or 1987, or 1995, or 1998, or 2001. Without looking that up, you could not give me any of those. Same with all those BCS games you ran off. Most people couldnt give you the last 3 title winners. People really only remember the last year. We are in what have you done lately for me world. That is what fans care about. The Y does have their title from 1984, and no one can take that away. The UTES have 2 BCS wins the last decade. The UTES have done more as of late than the Y has. Under Bronco he has more conference championships than Whit, but you and I both know that any fan would take 1 conference champinship and a BCS win over 2 or 3 conference championships & some Vegas Bowl appearences. More people know who made it to and won BCS games, than who had 10 win seasons, finished in the top 25, and had conference championships. Both Utah & the Y are better off outside of the MWC, but to say BCS games dont matter is just pure jealousy.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:09 p.m.

    Howhard S,

    "When you start getting ANY home games with big name OOC opponents, let us know"

    Funny, I thought BYU was that big name OOC opponent Utah had scheduled. I guess not according to you so I think Chris Hill should demand a 2 for 1 from BYU, 2 games in Salt Lake for every 1 game in Provo lest I be misunderstood. Afterall, that is what the other BCS teams are demanding and will be getting because BYU has a schedule to fill in 2013 and beyond.

  • Johnny Triumph American Fork, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:15 p.m.

    Certainly I'd say BYU has the bigger upside, they're also taking the bigger risk. The U did what they were invited to do, and will remain a 1/12 chance of seeing a BCS game. While revenue will be great for the U they'll most likely always be the little brother in the conference. BYU is in complete control of their situation and money, except for any control over a BCS invite. But those will come with any extended ESPN pressure, as long as BYU is eligible for an at-large BCS bid.

  • Papa Smurf UTE Herriman, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:31 p.m.

    Star Fairy,

    You have it wrong. It is the other way around. The UTES dont gain anything by playing the Y. You get another BCS opponent to play to help strengthen your weak WAC schedule to where if you are lucky enough to go undefeated it may help you get to a BCS game. The UTES on the other hand are in a lose/lose situation when palying the Y. If we win, we are supposed to beat our little brother to the south since they are an independent mid major. If we lose, we lose to an independent mid major, and it will hurt our ranking. The reason the UTES have the edge is, we can still lose to the Team Down South, and still make it to the Rose Bowl by winning the Pac 12. Once the Y loses 1 game, they already know what bowl they are going to. The good old Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl. Awesome!

  • Papa Smurf UTE Herriman, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:37 p.m.

    Portland Trail Blazers,

    Who won the National Championship in 1976, or 1987, or 1995, or 1998, or 2001. Without looking that up, you could not give me any of those. Same with all those BCS games you ran off. Most people couldnt give you the last 3 title winners. People really only remember the last year. We are in what have you done lately for me world. That is what fans care about. The Y does have their title from 1984, and no one can take that away. The UTES have 2 BCS wins the last decade. The UTES have done more as of late than the Y has. Under Bronco he has more conference championships than Whit, but you and I both know that any fan would take 1 conference champinship and a BCS win over 2 or 3 conference championships & some Vegas Bowl appearences. More people know who made it to and won BCS games, than who had 10 win seasons, finished in the top 25, and had conference championships. Both Utah & the Y are better off outside of the MWC.

  • DevilishUte Tempe, AZ
    July 8, 2011 4:38 p.m.

    "BYU is in complete control of their situation and money"

    False. BYU requires cooperation from schools to create their schedule each year. Even if BYU plays well there is a chance that opoonents they want to play will decide not to play them. In addition, if BYU loses ESPN will ignore them.

    Utah, on the other hand will get paid and have a respectable schedule regardless of how they perform.

    I agree with what others have said. Both are better off, although I can assure you that if the Big 12 came knockin' BYU will dump its Independence plans in a heart beat. Utah got INVITED.

  • One Nil to the Arsenal! Gilbert, AZ
    July 8, 2011 4:45 p.m.

    Um HedgeHog......how is 38-16 a unanimous poll?

  • Papa Smurf UTE Herriman, UT
    July 8, 2011 4:45 p.m.

    Howard,

    The Notre Dame game was a 1 and done because they needed to fill a game, and the Utes needed another road game. Same with Michigan in 08. Oh how Y fans like to forget things to make themselves look better. If Florida said they needed to add another home game and the Y needed to fill one more game, they would jump on that like a Y coed on ice cream from the creamery.

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    July 8, 2011 4:58 p.m.

    "The UTES dont gain anything by playing the Y"

    Papa Smurf UTE,

    You nailed it. I can find no viable reason to annually play a Non AQ team that is H-E-"double toothpick" bent on beating the Utes.

    We all know bonko has his team going for the knees and doing "whatever it takes" to win a game the defindes thier existence.

  • flintrock Rigby, Id
    July 8, 2011 5:14 p.m.

    Utah 2 BCS invites 2 BCS wins
    BYU 0 BCS invites 0 BCS wins

    As far as the last ten years go BYU should just accept the fact that they are a
    dog with all bark and no teeth.

    What you done lately, big talkers with all the advice about how good you were 25 years ago. GGEEEZZZZZ

  • NewJersey Salem, Ut
    July 8, 2011 5:18 p.m.

    Come September 17, one side of this argument will be making excuses, and the other side will be savoring the sweetness of justification.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    July 8, 2011 5:38 p.m.

    Ohio State fans have unrealistic expectations? Makes sense, they probably expect to go a year without massive ethics violations.

  • SoCalUtahFan Utesville, CA
    July 8, 2011 5:57 p.m.

    @NewJersey
    ...Come September 17, one side of this argument will be making excuses, and the other side will be savoring the sweetness of justification...

    Team to the south...will bring out "Band of Brothers", "Fragile! Handle with care", and "Wait till next year!" t-shirts and wear them.

    Team on the hill...well, just another win...

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    July 8, 2011 6:35 p.m.

    So, what's changed?

    We've been told forever and ever that Utah has better athletes. Not shackled to an honor code, they can cater to both the LDS goin'-on-a-mission athlete and the bad-as-I-wanna-be athlete. And the evidence is how many more Utes get drafted than Cougs.

    Utah is certainly a program that has arrived, having played, and won, not one but two BCS bowl games and having defeated a number of storied (nice word, isn't it?) BCS programs.

    Utah is already ahead of BYU, before the whole PAC / Independent thing. Aren't they?

    So why is it that even after ad admittedly mediocre season for BYU, one game separates the two in the won-loss column, in this generation, ie history beginning with the two current coaches.

    One game.

    One point.

    One blocked field goal on the last play of the game. At home.

    We could even say, one inch.

    The question isn't "who is better situated." The question is, what will BYU do with what it has. So far, they've done pretty good. I like their chances.

  • Howhard S Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 7:01 p.m.

    @Dutchman
    Meh...I can see your POV, BYU is about the only Big Name OOC opponent that will come to Rice-Chex on a 1 for 1 basis. Everyone else makes you just come to their house and refuses to return the favor.

    BTW, Utah is on the list of teams Holmoe said he wouldn't give 2 for 1's to. We'd be stupid to do it, we'd lose all that TV money going to Rice-Chex and NOT playing on national TV.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 7:17 p.m.

    @papa smurf ute
    "it will hurt our ranking"

    Since when are 5-7 or 6-6 teams ranked? Just getting to 6 wins and bowl eligibility is a greater concern for you. I can see a day where Utah will be begging to get out of their committment to play BYU every year so they can start scheduling more games with Weber STate, Montana Tech, S. Dakota State, Northern Arizona, etc. They're going to need all the easy wins they can get.

    As for BYU, playing teams that are ranked always helps you but playing the Washington STates, San Jose States, Idaho States and Utah's of the football world doesn't help BYU at all other than give them an easy win. But it does help balance the schedule some after playing a heavy dose of ranked BCS NC contenders like Texas, etc.

    Also, you said that nobody remembers past National Championships but everyone remembers past BCS bowl teams? I think the only people who think 2nd or 4th place finishes are better than National Championships are utah fans, with one exception...they seem to remember winning a National Championship in Women's Gymnastics. Now that's something to be proud of!

  • Howhard S Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 7:31 p.m.

    @papa smurf ute
    "The Notre Dame game was a 1 and done because they needed to fill a game, and the Utes needed another road game.Same with Michigan in 08."

    Methinks thou doth protest too much. Yes, that's TOTALLY believable. Everyone wants more road games. Utah must really love road games because they've given Michigan 2 games in the Big House now and gotten ZERO return games in Rice-Chex stadium. (

    Thanks for reminding me of that DevilishUte, I'd forgotten Michigan has demanded 2 home games from you without even giving you an exhibition game in SLC or a neutral site game somewhere else.

    And, yes, you're right, Michigan is not THE bottom feeder, Indiana is. Michigan is just a notch above that (finished 3-5, 1-7, 2-6 the last 3 yrs). Thanks for clarifying that.

  • DOCTOR Chris Hill Bountiful, UT
    July 8, 2011 7:36 p.m.

    @DevilishUte
    "Utah, on the other hand will get paid and have a respectable schedule regardless of how they perform."

    So basically you're saying Utah is the new Washington State in the Pac 12?

    Aren't you setting your sights a little high there right out of the gate?

  • roquetman provo, UT
    July 8, 2011 8:40 p.m.

    unrealistic expectations! oh I enjoy a good laugh, and then I read the blog I had a better laugh, "the quest" is like a classic comedy always a good laugh! so true, so true.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 8, 2011 10:43 p.m.

    @mgr63

    "BYU has never played in a big bowl game yet and have an atrocious bowl record at that."

    BYU has played in the Fiesta Bowl before, and they played in the Cotton Bowl ranked as the #5 team in the country. With the current BCS rules, as a #5 ranked team, BYU should have received a BCS bowl invite, but it was snubbed.

    On a similar note, Ohio State just announced it is vacating all wins frommthe 2010 season, but they will keep the BCS bowl money earned!

    BCS Bowls just are not milestones that BYU wants to achieve. We want national championships.

    1984 > 2004 and 2008

    Go Cougars!

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 8, 2011 10:53 p.m.

    Part 1 (Utah)

    Utah is NOT better off than BYU over the long haul.

    1. PLUNK!

    Utah will be a little fish in a big pond. Doesn't matter that they played BCS bowl games in recent years. In fact, that'll spur Pac-11 teams to NOT let this newbie beat them on their home turfs. Utah will have difficulty getting road wins for some time to come.

    2. That's MY toy!

    Utah will have some success in getting better recruits as a BCS school, but NOT at the expense of other Pac-11 schools. Not enough history and tradition to make that work over the Pac-11 schools.

    3. Can you see me yet?

    Utah's probationary time, coupled with miniscule national TV exposur, will hinder their ability to draw top talent as a BCS school UNTIL they've proven themselves and get more TV exposure.

    4. Stickyness.

    USC will be a thorn in Utah's efforts to get a conference championship. Doubt they'll beat USC more than once per decade. And in the year they DO beat USC, they'll have lost to one or more of the other Southern Division schools, still keeping them out of that title game.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 8, 2011 10:58 p.m.

    Part 2 (BYU)

    BYU is better off than Utah over the long haul.

    5. Here I am!

    BYU's very first year as an independent has lofty TV exposure. IF they perform well against the tougher teams on their schedule, that'll REALLY help their recruiting efforts for top athletes. In other words, BYU has more of an opportunity to get a foothold on recruiting sooner than the Utes, if BYU doesn't falter down the road. Two big IFs here, but I'm confident Bronco will deliver.

    6. Big boy's club.

    If the Big 12 DOES come calling in a few years, BYU will then be on the same level as Utah, but will have had the headstart from TV exposure with respect to recruiting clout.

    7. To BCS or not to BCS.

    BYU only has to go undefeated, something not easily done in a BCS conference, giving BYU the edge over Utah in seeing another chance at a BCS bowl.

    8. He's everywhere!

    BYU's recruiting base, because of it's ability to schedule games against MANY teams from different parts of the country EVERY year, will give BYU an advantage over Utah's Pac-12 recruiting footprint.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 8, 2011 11:02 p.m.

    Part 3

    Why BYU is better off than Utah.

    > Basically, each team has to perform or their foray into their new environment will be a nightmare.

    > In each team's first year, BYU has the edge because of the exposure and possible undefeated year. Saying Utah can go undefeated in its first Pac-12 year is much more of a stretch. RE: USC, Oregon. BYU's foes, though respected, aren't on as good a roll recently as Oregon, so BYU has a better chance (undefeated or otherwise).

    > BYU's second year could be even better with a more experienced team that's still young this year. SOS won't be BYU's issue from 2013 on, which nullifies Utah's advantage thereafter.

    > Utah's second year has the potential to be the same as its first year. Why? History. Utah does NOT have a very good record against Pac-10 teams at THEIR places over the past decade. It'll take time for Utah to start getting its share of road wins in the new Pac-12.

    > In the long haul, BYU will continue to have an advantage over Utah because of BYU's quicker start (TV exposure, thus recruiting), and the possibility of Big 12 membership.

  • bdl_juice OGDEN, UT
    July 8, 2011 11:10 p.m.

    WhatsInItForMe
    5. Unrealistic expectations dashed repeatedly!

    BYU will continually lose a game early in the year meaning they will get very comfortable with the Kraft Fight Hunger Bowl

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 8, 2011 11:13 p.m.

    @moderate

    "If the Cougars finish as the highest-ranked non-AQ as an independent, there is no automatic bid."

    If they finish ranked #1 or 2, then they have an auto bid! ;)

    BYU = higher goals than U

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 8, 2011 11:22 p.m.

    Wouldn't it be interesting if both BYU and Notre Dame got the call from the Big 12 and both accepted?

    Watch out SEC and Big 10! Suddenly, the Big 12 (even without Nebraska), would be the BCS conference to beat.

    And, this would likely come after BYU and Notre Dame have played each other a few times, and both teams had stellar years as independents.

    No way Louisville would be as inticing to the Big 12 as BYU. And, Arkansas won't abandon the SEC. They're quite happy there.

    Personally, I doubt college conferences will look at all similar to what they do now in about 4-5 more years. I think 16-team mega conferences that feed into a 4-team or 8-team playoff will be the future. Then, you'll have a #1 BCS seed playing a #8 mid-major seed, etc.

    That'll provide chances of upsets, but two BCS teams will likely end up in the title game 90% of the time. Still leaves the Cinderalla story open.

    However, I'd prefer keeping status quo with two changes: automatic inclusion for at least one mid-major conference champ (regardless of record), and a 4-team playoff.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 8, 2011 11:24 p.m.

    @Chiro

    "TV:
    Larry Scott's per John Wilner
    It appears that once the PAC12 network is up and running, every PAC12 football game, including all of the OOC games will be on broadcast media; either ESPN, Fox, FSN, or Pac12 network

    Utah has 12 games on TV and byu will have 7 or 8.
    Edge: Utah"

    The pac12 network won't be ready until 2012, neither will Fox. So this year the pac12 has either ESPN or FSN. Sadly, Utah has just 3 of their 12 games scheduled for tv, and 1 of those 12 is thanks to the gracious BYU cougars giving them their only game on ESPN this season.

    BYU has 7 games already guaranteed on ESPN, probably 2 more to be announced, and any more will be on BYU TV. Tom Holmoe's statement on independence day: "Every BYU football game will be broadcast on nationwide tv."

    Advantage: BYU.

    Money? Utah gets exactly $0 from the pac12 this year. BYU will get an estimated $8-10 Million from ESPN this year. Remember, if BYU makes it to the BCS, they keep all $15 million. They don't share that money with anyone else.

    Go Cougars!

  • Rock Of The Marne Phoenix, AZ
    July 8, 2011 11:25 p.m.

    All you Y fans on here trying to convince everyone that BYU is great and Utah stinks are a hoot. First of all the records don't support it. I know in some of your all too well defined make believe worlds Utah will be a bottom feeder PAC 12 team and BYU soar; time grow up. Second, confident people don't have to try and convince others; truthfully many of the anti Utah posts are quite desperate and downright comical with their fables of woe for Utah. Too funny. I hope some of you are no older than 12 as if not all I can say is Wow.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 8, 2011 11:36 p.m.

    @ Bo Jenggles

    "Actually, you need to check your facts. Just last week DesNews ran an article confirming Utah would receive ~$31MM when fully vested in the new TV deal... that's not including bowl revenues which will push Utah to the upper $30MM range."

    Show me the article!

    The numbers released by the pac12 and Fox and ESPN was $3 Billion over the next 12 seasons for regular season games. Doing the math, that's $250 Million for the pac12 per season. $250 million divided evenly (2014) by 12 teams totals about $21 Million. Total bowl revenues will be around $23-26 million each season. Divide that 12 ways, and it's about $2 million per team.

    So total revenue for each pac12 school should be around $23 million per season.

    Nonclue who told you $31 million, unless you are donating the other $8 million+ to Utah yourself!

    Remember, Utah gets $0 this year. BYU gets an estimated $8-10 million this year.

    2011: BYU wins the money battle.

    Go Cougars!

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 8, 2011 11:45 p.m.

    @mgr63

    " BYU always has been an offensive minded school, literally and figuratively, but that is why they've hardly ever been competitive in football or basketball on the national stage."

    Football: 1984= national championship, 1990 = BYU beats Miami at home, 1996 = BYU wins a record 14 games and wins the cotton bowl and finishes the season ranked in top 5

    Basketball: 2006-present = 5 consecutive NCAA tourney appearances, 2011 = sweet 16 appearance and Jimmer!

    Thanks for the comment.

    Go Cougars!

  • PizzInovations Chandler, AZ
    July 8, 2011 11:51 p.m.

    Both teams obviously improved their situation immensely. The degree of venom "manly" exhibited by both sides for the other team is truly unnecessary. I don't know why I even take the time to read the mean-spirited comments in these comments sections. Com'on all -- how about a little civility? Life's too short to spend time putting down others. Go Cougars! (Alright, alright... good luck Utes!)

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 9, 2011 12:12 a.m.

    @Usportsfan

    "Reality is, statistically Utah leads BYU in games won, winning %, head 2 head games, conference championships, undefeated seasons, bowl victories, and current NFL players."

    Games won total? BYU has won more games over the last 40 years than Utah.

    Head to head, Kyle and bronco are 3-3 against each other. Since 1972, BYU has won 20+, Utah just 10.

    Conference championships, BYU won 20 WAC conference titles, Utah won 2 WAC titles, and each has won 4 MWC football conference championships. So, in the last 40 years, BYU has 24 conference football championships, Utah has 6. 24 > 6.

    National championships? BYU has 1, and the U doesn't have any.

    Heir an trophy winners? BYU has 1, Utah doesn't have any.

    Saying Utah has the edge is like saying the Lakers didn't make it to the NBA championship last year and Dallas has the edge in the NBA. History is a beautiful thing, but Utah football doesn't can't compare with BYU's history.

    Go Cougars!

  • hohum Saint George, UT
    July 9, 2011 8:00 a.m.

    Devil ute:
    Just getting around to reading all of the posts here. Your's was interesting and brought out a great point. If BYU plays well, then BCS schools won't want to play them. Isn't this what and why the BCS won't be around in two years. The conferences play within and schedule patsies outside, Montana State etc., and all of the in conference games are given higher ratings for BCS. Why are they given higher value, because that is what the BCS says it should be. We are the best, if you don't believe me, just ask me.

    You're right the middle of the pack BCS schools won't play the Y, because they will loose. The lower might becasue they have nothing to loose and the upper might on a 2 for 1.

    The bcs makes it difficult for the Y and I am sure lets the conferences know who they can and can't play. The Y has an advantage because they are independent and great flexibilty in their scheduling.

  • Bo Jangles Meridian, ID
    July 9, 2011 9:13 a.m.

    @ Cougar_Indy

    Below is the quote regarding the new PAC12 in house media venture that will most like net the Utes $30MM in TV revenues. Thats not counting bowl revenue which could push their total package to the mid $30MM range. This site will not allow me to paste the link to the article for some reason, but it was published 5/27/2011 in DesNews.

    It's been said that the only thing better than a whole lot of money is a whole lot more money. That may be the case when it comes to membership in the Pac-12. Earlier this week, Pac-12 commissioner Larry Scott noted that the league's in-house media venture could net the conference an additional $1 billion in revenue over time. CBSSports.com's Dennis Dodd reports that schools like Utah could earn an additional $8.3-$11.9 million per year from Pac-12 Media Enterprises. That would be on top of the $21 million per year average the new broadcast deal with ESPN and Fox will produce for each member.

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 9, 2011 9:16 a.m.

    @mid major

    "Utah has been at BCS level team since 2004."

    Is that the BCS level team I watched in Vegas in 2007 that got shut out 0-27 against UNLV? If that's the case, BYU is 3-3 against a BCS Utah team. Must mean BYU is on the same level as the BCS teams. Hmmm...

    Also, does that mean Utah's performance in last year's Vegas bowl was at a BCS level against Boise State? If that's the case, these BCS level teams keep getting better every year!

    BCS level Utah is 3-3 against BYU, and 0-2 against "mid-major" Boise Sate! Good job utes.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 9:24 a.m.

    I wanna know from the Y fans how pumped up you "overly "happy boys" are about watching the 2nd half of your 2011 season when you will most likely be 3-3? New mexico St and all the rest of the div 2 quality teams you're playing? That has gotta be, is, the worst.......at least we get to watch PAC-12 games regardless of our record. Because Utah, in every respect, is the "real" deal. Go Utes!!!!

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 9, 2011 10:11 a.m.

    So Utah has the challenge of upgrading and building new facilities in order to keep up with the other schools in the PAC 12. Utah is up to the challenge. There are only 22 universities in the nation with more billionaire alums than Utah. I am confident that Utah's alums will step up now that Utah is in the PAC 12. Let me clue BYU fans in on something. You have the same challenge. Even though you are not a member of the PAC 12 you still have to compete facility wise with those schools to stay competitive and get recruits. Although BYU has good facilities now and has proven it can raise a lot of money the pressure to upgrade and build more is going to increase. BYU is not exempt from this arms race.

    As for the BYU vs Utah game I think it should continue as a 2 for 1 game in Utah's favor or just forget it.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 10:22 a.m.

    Hey Dutchman.........BYU has an endless supply of money.......are you kidding me? If BYU gets dissed, they do whatever the have to to remain relevant. The problem they have is getting great talent.......that is why their defense is so slow. Hence, they will never be big time.........EVER! !984 was a sham and completely changed college football. It is viewed by most as an atrocity the way that "any" undefeated teamed could be deemed national champions........it was the biggest athletic farce of the 20th century......and everything changed after that debacle.

  • Lone Star Cougar Plano, TX
    July 9, 2011 10:30 a.m.

    BYU will be just fine. The U fans are crowing now but time will tell.

    I hope they don't fall into the same trap USC and probably some others in their conference have fallen into. Maybe the U can finally latch onto some sort of a "Good Guy" image now they are compared to the others in the PAC conference.

    They just need to keep their noses clean.

    But I guess if you hang around your peers long enough some of it is bound to rub off...

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 9, 2011 10:42 a.m.

    @mgr63 "at least we get to watch PAC-12 games regardless of our record."

    How are you going to watch Utah in the PAC-12 when they're not on TV? Hmmm...that's a mystery. Like I've said before, Bill Riley is going to be every Ute fan's best friend this year.

    @Dutchman "Even though you are not a member of the PAC 12 you still have to compete facility wise with those schools to stay competitive and get recruits."

    As you stated, BYU already has great facilities which we've had even without being in the PAC 12, or having a "lucrative" PAC 12 agreement. BYU's been recruiting against PAC 12 schools for years and has won their fair share of recruiting battles. I don't think facilities are going to be an issue.

    Go Cougars!

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 9, 2011 10:49 a.m.

    mgr63,

    Utah fans, of which I am one, look stupid and petty when trying to put down BYU's national championship in 1984. They won it under the rules at the time and they have the trophy. I was excited when they won it. Do I wish Utah had one after 2004 and 2008? You bet I do. But I recognize BYU has theirs and you should too.

    BYU has a lot of money but it is not endless. A good deal of the money for facilities and maintenance of those facilities comes from University funds which means LDS Church tithing funds. They can justify the use of tithing funds to build and maintain facilities because they are on campus and are used by the general student body not just the athletic teams. But the leaders of the church keep a tight reign on these funds because the church has demands in other places of the world. Make no mistake, this athletic arms race will be hard on BYU as well.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 10:49 a.m.

    @Cougar indy.........that is cute that you mentioned Utah's loss in 07' at UNLV......classic! HAHAHA! Why don't you elaborate on BYUs performances, if you can call being demolished a "performance," last year against Florida St, TCU at home, both ESPN big games mind you, and the whoop'n you gals took at Utah St.? And, you cheated SDSU? This oughta be great? hahahahahahaha!

  • I Still Can't Say It Holladay, UT
    July 9, 2011 10:53 a.m.

    SI's Stewart Mandel declared Utah the big winner with its move to the PAC-12 over BYU's independence bid...

    Here's the kicker....Utah's the big winner without even considering the team in Provo's basketball downgrade to the WCC.

    The future is the Utes!

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 11:02 a.m.

    Here is the definition of "beautiful".........not having BYUTV. HAHAHA! I'm stoked!

  • guitarboy South Jordan, UT
    July 9, 2011 11:12 a.m.

    "Come September 17, one side of this argument will be making excuses, and the other side will be savoring the sweetness of justification."

    Well said, New Jersey.

    I don't know why all these BYU fans keep talking about how much exposure BYU is going to have. Utah is the one with the exposure. Check this out:

    1. Utah's second and third string quarterbacks got a lot of exposure in spring ball.

    2. Utah's basketball team got exposed every time they played BYU.

    3. Utah's students, in the dorms, get exposure to 420 friendly, whenever they choose.

    4. UTAH football is playing on ESPN on Sept. 17.

    1-4 are just a sample. Utah's exposure clearly exceeds BYU's exposure.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 11:15 a.m.

    @Dutchman...........The LDS Church has an endless supply of money, property all over the world in mass quantities. If BYU needs facilities.......they can build whatever they want to at any time.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 9, 2011 11:18 a.m.

    @mgr63

    My definition of "beautiful" is being able to watch Colorado on national TV more than the Utes...or is that the definition of "respect"? Hmmm...I guess you can decide :)

    Go Cougars!

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 11:28 a.m.

    @truecoug......the definition of "respect"......Utah being invited to the PAC-12. BYU didn't even get a call back from any big conference.......the definition of "no respect." Good luck selling 2011 NC t-shirts cougies!

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 9, 2011 11:45 a.m.

    @mgr63

    Haha, I think "respect" is when the World Wide Leader puts you on national TV seven times in your first year of independence, and when other big schools (Texas, USC, eg.) start looking into following your example with their own broadcast center and independence.

    I'd say "disrespect" is being the fallback for a conference looking to increase its revenue, which is reflected by getting on national TV all of once this year, courtesy of BYU, while Colorado, the other invitee, gets put on national TV 3 times.

    U got invited to the "big boys" table and find yourself stuck in the high chair.

    Hope you brought your bib.

    Go Cougars!

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 12:03 p.m.

    The reason BYU got the ESPN contract is because nearly all sports fans wanna see BYU lose.

  • byu116970 Tooele, Utah
    July 9, 2011 12:20 p.m.

    Utes you do have a higher ceiling than byu but you still have to get there. The real question is will you really be happy to play better teams if you are fighting to get bowl eligable or just trying to finish the season. You have much more pressure to compete this year than byu. If you flop it will be much harder to keep recruits and will prove your still just a mid major with a different wrapper.

    See you in the poinsettia bowl if any.

    One thing is certain this rivalry will never die even if they stop playing the holy war. Both will always comparw each other.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 12:55 p.m.

    .......better than the toilet bowl in ABQ.......where BYU appeared last year, barely, by cheating SDSU.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 1:33 p.m.

    I was just reviewing BYU's 2011 schedule. Honestly, what national audience wants to watch more than half of their games? I think that ESPN will maybe bow out of that contract in a couple years and take the financial hit up front. I sure hope re-runs of "Two and a Half Men" are on at those game times. Even watching "Mr. Ed" would be more entertaining. Good heavens.......? What garbage games they are.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 9, 2011 2:20 p.m.

    @ mgd64
    "The reason BYU got the ESPN contract is nearly all sports fans want to see them lose."

    So basically, what you're saying is, BYU is like the New York Yankees of major college football and just like the Yankees, they're a major draw and boost attendance and ratings everywhere?

    I totally agree with you. BYU is one of a small number of schools that have profitable Athletic Depts in the NCAA. Utah with their tiny athletics program and budget has been losing money for years.

    ESPN was smart enough to realize that BYU is a cash cow and They need to tap into that financial might.

    Excellent point MGD64, keep the insight going and keep on supporting the Cougars!

  • SoCalUtahFan Utesville, CA
    July 9, 2011 2:28 p.m.

    FYI...the last 18 years of Utah-BYU football series...
    Utah 11 BYU 7

    Utah's best 2 wins: 2004: 52-21; 2008: 48-24;
    BYU's best 2 wins: 1996: 37-17; 2000: 34-27

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 2:42 p.m.

    @hedgehog

    Yes sir BYU is a cash cow as it stands right now. However, the entertainment value of half their schedule is nil, at best. The NY Yankees have a massive fan base and people like I that can't stand them. BYU has a few million fans at best, but millions, like I again, that absolutely despise them. If you read the ESPN boards after they inked the deal there were thousands of football fans stating exactly what I am saying here. Additionally, the more exposure that BYU fans get on ESPN will only cause the hate to deepen. Which could be a good or bad thing???? Now, we really don't know how it will all pan out, but BYU scheduling decent games later in the season will almost be impossible due to conference requirements of other teams. I also speculate that many TVs will get turned off if BYU is winning and ESPN will be closely paying attention to those numbers. Honestly, who really likes BYU on a national basis other than Mormon folks........very few.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 3:20 p.m.

    Hey Hedgehog, I love MGD64! Cheers bro!

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    July 9, 2011 4:17 p.m.

    Wow mgr63. If Utah's desire to win was as strong as your hatred for BYU, the Utes would be national champions every year,

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 4:22 p.m.

    @Riverton Cougar................let's certainly hope so brutha!

  • charlie24 Sandy, UT
    July 9, 2011 5:09 p.m.

    Easy to answer with a simple test almost anyone can understand: None of the Pac 12 universities would ever even consider a move to the WCC, none would even consider going independent, not under any possible condition. Every single WCC college would do anything, sale anything, do anything to move up to the Pac 12. Some can see this already, some in the media will need time to see the object lessons, a few will never understand or will curl up in denial.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 9, 2011 5:16 p.m.

    @mgd lite
    Having worked in advertising for over 15 yrs I can tell you it doesn't matter if they're loved or hated. Bottom line is they move the needle and you're proof of that.

    Also, you really lose credibility when you make bogus claims that ESPN has the ability to pay attention whether or not a viewer changes the channel and that they'll be closely watching it. Have you ever participated in a Nielsen ratings survey? The avg TV viewer changes channel numerous times during a session of watching TV, many times just to avoid the commercials. You should think things through a little before posting.

    To give you an example of BYU's ability to draw them (& Utah's lack of it) we can look at Utah's 2006 game @ UCLA which drew 59,000 people. This is just a season after their Fiesta so interest should be high in them.

    2007 BYU played @ UCLA and 73,000 attended, an increase of 25% and watching it on TV it sounded like a BYU home game. When you monetize this (ticket prices, food, souvenirs, parking etc) BYU pulled in at least $2 million or more than Utah.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 9, 2011 5:17 p.m.

    @mgr63 "The reason BYU got the ESPN contract is nearly all sports fans want to see them lose."

    And the reason Utah isn't on TV is because they have no fan base.

    Comparison of the two newest PAC 12 members:

    Colorado: 34-49 since 2004, 0 BCS appearances

    Utah: 69-20 since 2004, 2 BCS appearances, 2 BCS wins

    And yet...

    Colorado will appear on TV 4 times in the 2011 season (twice on ESPN2 and twice on FSN/Root).

    The Utes will appear on TV 3 times in the 2011 season (once on ESPN2, courtesy of BYU, once on Versus, and once on FSN).

    Ironically, the Colorado/USC game is on National Television (ESPN2), while the Utah/USC game is on Versus.

    Ouch.

    Talk about a slap in the face.

    But it's ok, I heard that the PAC 12 is coming out with new gear for Utah fans. They're white bibs with a big red U in the middle of them. So you have that to look forward to :)

    Go Cougars!

  • charlie24 Sandy, UT
    July 9, 2011 5:22 p.m.

    Also remember, BYU very much wanted to go to the Pac 12 and was insulted they were not picked. The U never considered the WCC or being independent. Only one of these teams would like to trade places. The U's move was the biggest promotion in D1 football for decades. The Ys move was a hissy fit to make any move at all when the elite teams were obviously leaving the MWC.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 9, 2011 5:53 p.m.

    Sounds to me like charlie24 is the one having the hissy fit.

    And, Lousiville, et al, wouldn't agree with you about the "biggest promotion in D1 football for decades." Those teams were WAY ahead of Utah in that department.

    BTW, the U couldn't have considered going independent without everyone on the hill splitting their guts. Laughable idea that the U could even consider it. They simply don't have the cache. BYU does, and their contract with ESPN proves it.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 9, 2011 6:21 p.m.

    @Charlie24
    Speaking of denial and not understanding, its difficult for a Ute fan to get it because they've always had to cling to the coat tails of others to survive. You HAVE to have bigger stronger schools taking care of you to avoid having all your sports become strictly intramural. Sorry to be brutally honest.

    Utah's fanbase resides largely within a few miles of the campus. To this end you're practically like a community college.

    Not every school has the dynamics to do what BYU is doing. You're painfully uninformed if think a school like USC isn't looking into their own options for independence, having their own network and not having to share their financial clout with the "Have Nots" of the world who have to get by on the public assistance of the elite in their conferences.

    Texas is looking at it and I guarantee you other elite programs are thinking if BYU can get $1-$2 million per game from ESPN then they can get $4-5 million per.

    A school like USC could easily triple the new P12 deal by going Indy in football and leave your other sports in a now meaningless conference.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 9, 2011 6:26 p.m.

    It is great being a Utah fan. We're in the big time now and the blue kitties down south got dissed! Exactly what they deserved. Does it get any better than that? Notta!

  • hedgehog Ann Arbor, MI
    July 9, 2011 7:53 p.m.

    "To hear them talk, you'd think they'd won the last 10 national championships instead of a couple of relatively meaningless BCS bowls.'

    Swoop,

    Considering that bYu has next to no chance of winning a NC ( being an independent) isn't "meaningless" BCS bowls what you aspire to?

    What else do ya got?

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    July 9, 2011 8:42 p.m.

    --JEFFE--said:

    "The move to Independence is about a lot more than just BYU football, its about exposure for BYU and the LDS Church. Independence puts BYU in a position for more exposure than any member of an AQ conference. With its own HD network, BYU is a pioneer. And many programs are watching and waiting to see what happens."

    A pioneer? Not. There are other schools that already have broadcasting networks. The Big Ten Conference broadcasts most all sports and academic programming. Nothing new going on here.

    The weakest schools in the SEC are more popular than BYU, just because they are in the SEC. And they get plenty of exposure. Football in the SEC is a religion. If you don't believe me just attend a game down there.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 9, 2011 9:10 p.m.

    @Charlie24
    Again, painfully uninformed. Do you really think BYU could fund raise, design, get permits, break ground and build a multi-million dollar, state of the art HD broadcasting facility in the couple of months after Utah was invited to the P12 as a hissy fit?

    The truth is Utah had to sit and wait for a handout from another conference but BYU started planning for this way back in 2006 (a Google search will confirm this) after it became apparent that the Mtn was a terrible network. BYU had lost control of their brand and was determined to get it back.

    Construction was completed on the HD facility last summer and with Utah going to the P12 and the MWC unwilling to let BYU broadcast their own games there was nothing to stay for. Little brother had moved out and didn't need looking after anymore.

    Utah got what they so desperately needed (someone to take care of them ) and BYU got control of its brand and 100% of its games on National TV. Its a win-win for both schools.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 9, 2011 10:00 p.m.

    @nightoilamerica

    You should consider staying on topic. Your arguments will seem less rambling.

    You were shooting down his claim that BYU was a pioneer for having it's own HD network. You then claimed there are other schools that have their own HD networks but conveniently "forgot" to name any.

    You then ran away and changed topics and started talking about an entire conference having a network (10-12 schools collectively not one school individually).

    I know its hard for bitter Ute fans to accept but if lower tier SEC teams REALLY were more popular then what would stop ESPN from beating down their door to sign them up? The proof is in the pudding my friend and you just get around the facts on this.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 9, 2011 10:13 p.m.

    @NightOwlAmerica "A pioneer? Not. There are other schools that already have broadcasting networks. The Big Ten Conference broadcasts most all sports and academic programming. Nothing new going on here."

    Honest question: what other school has their own network which they use to play their own athletic events live?

    I understand that CONFERENCES have their own networks through which they broadcast their own sports. But what SCHOOLS have that?

    I think that's the point Jeffe was trying to making. Texas now has their own network, but they picked up a lot of their ideas from BYU. I know other schools (USC, e.g.) are looking into it as well, but I don't know of any other that is in the position that BYU is in with their state-of-the-art broadcast facility, hard wired HD to athletic venues, their very own HD truck, and the ability to broadcast their own athletic events live.

    Pretty cool stuff!

    Go Cougars!

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 9, 2011 11:14 p.m.

    Good point truecoug1. BYU also can broadcast multiple events simultaneously. They truly are pioneering the wave of the future for the elite programs with large National fanbases.

    The old antiquated notion of banding together in a conference will soon fall be left strictly to the" have nots "

  • I Still Can't Say It Holladay, UT
    July 9, 2011 11:29 p.m.

    The truth is most people watching the team in Provo football on ESPN will in fact want to see them lose very much so. And it's not because they have any real tradition.

    It's because the Cougars represent a religion many people tend not to like much. I know this as fact because I've lived outside of Utah and I too belong to the same religion.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 9, 2011 11:32 p.m.

    @mgr63 "It is great being a Utah fan. We're in the big time now and the blue kitties down south got dissed!"

    Um, I'm pretty sure we didn't get dissed. A number of the PAC 12 AD's were on record referencing BYU's "no Sunday play" policy and conservative approach as being the primary reasons that the Y wasn't compatible with the PAC 12.

    I have no problem getting left out of the "big boys table" if it comes down to us going independent and keeping our standards or joining the PAC 12 and compromising them.

    mgr63, refer to my comment at 5:17 P.M. as to who really got the short end of the stick here :)

    Go Cougars!

    And with the way the PAC 12 has been over the years, I'd say it's very clear which way they lean. With the issues that ASU, Oregon, and USC have had over the years, is it safe to now call the PAC 12 "the conference of cheaters"?

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    July 9, 2011 11:37 p.m.

    BigCougar said:

    ".....The old antiquated notion of banding together in a conference will soon fall be left strictly to the" have nots ""

    The "have nots" control the cards They are called BCS conferences where all the money is. Sorry. I don't see a bunch of schools leaving conferences to go independent like BYU. Doubt there is enough room to schedule N. Mexico St. and the other bottom feeders all the time. BYU needs them to fill out their schedule for the next decade.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 10, 2011 12:25 a.m.

    The BCS which is conference driven is going to be replaced by super schools like TX, USC, ND and a handful of others that have national brands and can create their own personal networks. Eventually they will have the power to create their own bowl alliances.

    The transition toward stronger super schools and weaker conferences will be driven by the power of the super school brands. TX has already created a conference where TX gets all of its money and the other schools do not get to leach off of TX.

    As TX leads the way, USC will follow. How soon is the only question. If USC demands a split like TX has with the Big 12 then Utah's cash cow dries up to about a fifth or less of sharing equally.

    TX now uses the Big 12. It is a conference in name only. It insures scheduling of games. A&M and OK go along as a strong TX butters their bread. The rest of the Big 12 are nothing without the big 3.

    If the BCS is broken by legal battle the next step is for the super schools to take control of their own destiny.

  • Master Nielsen Saint George, UT
    July 10, 2011 12:41 a.m.

    I thought that once both teams split and went their separate ways that all the bickering, and tantrums would hopefully go away. .....Guess not.
    I love the rivalry! But come on people grow up!

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 10, 2011 5:09 a.m.

    To all the BYU fans, I enjoy sharing on the D News boards because I think my point of view is more like the populist view of BYU and offsets many of the delusional claims made by many on here. There is so much blind speculation, hyperbole and rationalization by rabid cougar fans that you must be able to listen to and accept some facts that I've stated without trying to invent your own set of facts to support your wishes. I realize this last year has been a difficult pill to swallow as Utah was promoted to a world class conference, but it happened. Be grateful for your ESPN contract and hope you can acquire a decent football schedule in the future. Thanks again for the fun cougs! Cheers!

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 10, 2011 6:22 a.m.

    @NightOilAmerica
    "The "have nots" control the cards They are called BCS conferences where all the money is"

    The BCS has changed numerous times and Before the BCS it was the bowl Alliance and the Bowl Coalition. Preceding many of those changes was an event involving BYU. Once again, there will be changes brought to bear on the BCS and BYU's move to independence and TV deal with ESPN is the catalist.

    Make no mistake, "Haves" like Texas are already following BYU's lead. They used it to force the Big 12 into giving them the lion's share of the conference revenues. It worked and what could the "have nots" in the Big 12 do? Nothing except pay the money.

    Other "Haves," like USC, are keenly interested and thinking if BYU can get $1-2 million per game, they can get significantly more. USC will use that leverage to either get the lion's share of conference revenues (and drastically reduce Utah's welfare checks) or go Indy in football while leaving their other sports in the Pac12. The money USC could get on their own would dwarf their share of the new P12 deal.

    This is just the beginning...

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 10, 2011 9:24 a.m.

    @BigCougar

    Nobody follows BYU's lead in anything whatsoever. BYU is a struggling entity.......look at what happened. The world avoids them at all cost, unless they see the grudge/financial merit in associating with BYU. Honestly, I have a gazillion Mormon friends, love them to death, but they always say the same thing to me..........."I really get/got tired of the "door" getting slammed in my face......"ring a bell" to anyone out there? When BYU heard that Utah was accepted to the PAC-12 every soul in the BYU hierarchy got on the phone to EVERYONE......They got a call back from ESPN, the WAC and the WCC. No BCS conference made a call back or ever considered BYU ever. When, oh when, will reality set in with you people?

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    July 10, 2011 9:44 a.m.

    Boise State 26 Utah 3 Las Vegas Bowl, Dec 22,2010, BYU 52, Utep 24 New Mexico Bowl. Unfortunately for both Utah and BYU neither team is anywhere close to a national championship team. The fact that the Utes moved to the Pac 10 along with Colorado means more money and prestige but they are an average team in a now descredited conference (ncaa sanctions on USC). BYU will get airtime on ESPN but if they lose to Mississippi or Texas or if Utah loses to USC or BYU
    is there really going to be a lot of interest. It is hard to predict the 2011 season and sure Utah got $31 million and BYU football independence the team in this area that has a shot at a Heisman and BCS championship is the Boise State Broncos. Kellen Moore was a finalist last year and if they knock off Georgia and TCU who knows what might happen.

  • New to Utah PAYSON, UT
    July 10, 2011 10:15 a.m.

    Boise State 26 Utah 3 Las Vegas Bowl Dec 22, 2010, BYU 52 Utep 24 New Mexico Bowl. Utah's move to the Pac 12 gave them $31 Million and recognition. The problem is the Pac 12 has been discredited by the USC scandal. BYU gained its independence but with a 7-6 record last year, unless they beat Mississippi and Texas will anyone care. The Utes will not likely beat USC and BYU@ BYU @USC so what interest after that. It is hard to predict the 2011 season but Boise State with Kellen Moore already a Heisman finalist and games against Georgia and TCU has the best shot at a BCS championship. The moves by Utah and BYU were financial winners but what about actual football games? Time will tell.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 10, 2011 10:27 a.m.

    @truecoug1

    "Sunday play" had nothing to do with it.....they probably said that to refract the facts that BYU's curriculum, lack of a medical school, extensive research, narrow undergrad and post grad programs, horrific science dept, guarded intellectual classes.....and on and on. All the reciprocal at PAC-12 schools. The education at BYU is way out there as it relates to PAC-12 academics and any other BCS conference for that matter. But, the overriding factor is BYU's and the LDS Church's position on social issues. It just is not even close to what the they believe and/or aspire to. Now, the U of U fits in perfectly and is a beacon of excellence in a region of absurdity. Those are the facts sir.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 10, 2011 10:47 a.m.

    @New to Utah

    Utah's QB, Jordan Wynn, was injured mid-season. I do agree with you that the last two years that Utah was WAY WAY overrated, as is BYU every year.......for whatever reason? They went 7-6 with a cream-puff schedule that only had one challenging game, lowly Utah on the road and lost that. They were creamed by TCU, FSU at home and had their backsides handed to them by a crappy USU squad in Logan.....plus cheated SDSU to get the invite to the Toilet Bowl in ABQ. Don't get me wrong, as I think highly of BSU, a great team and will be in the future. However, Utah has had two undefeated seasons in this decade and beat the tar out of PITT and Alabama in both BCS Bowls. Don't count out Utah......they have some great athletes there on both sides of the ball.....unlike BYU, who has no defensive speed whatsoever. Their "glory" days are well over, never to return.

  • gchris rock springs, wy
    July 10, 2011 1:04 p.m.

    All this chest thumping about who is going to make the most money, recruit the better players, appear on this or that channel is a bit wearying to a fan who just wants to see good games. BYU and Utah will probably play each other in at least two sports over the next several years unless the aforementioned priorities get in the way. BYU will probably win the majority of those contests, at least in basketball and will get the national recognition it desires by playing on the national stage on national television. Utah will enjoy a measure of mediocrity in the PAC12 and will probably make more money, earned by its conference mates but will strut around Utah like it was their
    accomplishment. Utah fans, soured by mediocrity, will eventually show up just to see the opponent and will decry BYU's success and criticise their schedule, their coaches, their honor code, etc. etc. But I can't wait for September!

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 10, 2011 5:05 p.m.

    @mgr63

    Don't worry, man...the PAC 12 has your bib all ready for you :)

    Go Cougars!

  • Cougars1 Bluffdale, UT
    July 10, 2011 5:15 p.m.

    mgr63,
    As evidenced by your comments on another thread, you know absolutely nothing about BYU. Everything you post on these threads is made up to try and back up some preconceived notion that you have about BYU.ie., saying that BYU has no research at the school, or that they require 45 credits of religion to graduate. so when it comes to your comments about anything BYU, you obviously can't be taken at face value.

  • mgr63 DALLAS, TX
    July 10, 2011 6:07 p.m.

    I'll take the bib over a BYU burp bowl any day. Please letr me know when a BCS conference calls will ya cougs........if I''m still alive?

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 10, 2011 7:14 p.m.

    @Dutchman

    " wouldn't be trashing Washington State right now. BYU AD Holmoe was quoted in the Tribune saying that WSU was one of the teams BYU is looking at scheduling in 2013 and/or beyond. Also, it looks like WSU may be demanding a 2 for 1 from BYU meaning BYU plays two games in Pullman and WSU comes once to Provo. Only BCS teams get this kind of deal."

    Not sure what article reported that, because I have never heard Washington state get brought up by anyone.

    Also, Holmoe has already stated that BYU will not do 2 for 1's with any BCS team. Only the top teams in the country like Texas or Ohio State. Please see our scheduled future games with Oregon State and Georgia Tech. Both these teams are members of AQ conferences, and both are doing home and home games with BYU. Georgia tech actually did 2 home and home games, so they are coming to Provo twice, and BYU is going to Atlanta twice.

    Nice try! Texas and Notre Dame are the only teams BYU has done a 2 for 1 with. Smart moves in my opinion.

    Go Cougars!

  • Cougar_Independence OMAHA, NE
    July 10, 2011 7:26 p.m.

    @papa smurf ute

    "The Notre Dame game was a 1 and done because they needed to fill a game, and the Utes needed another road game. Same with Michigan in 08."

    Actually, Utah had to drop their game with Utah State to make room for the Notre Dame game. This is why Utah State was not on Utah's schedule last year or this year. To say Utah "needed to fill a game" is completely false. Utah already had a game scheduled with the aggies, but Utah took the "one and done" with Notre dame over a home-and-home with Utah State.

    However, point here is Notre Dame will never come to SLC because Utah has no clout in the national scene. Notre Dame will visit Provo twice over the next 7 years. That game will be broadcasted on ESPN or ABC to a national audience.

    BYU > little brother up north

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 10, 2011 8:36 p.m.

    @mgr63 "Please letr me know when a BCS conference calls will ya cougs"

    Why would we want to join a BCS conference? All that got U was a game on Versus and the dubious honor of being part of the "conference of cheaters". Woohoo!

    I'll take independence any day...it's the future of college football, everybody knows this :)

    Don't worry...BYU's getting your pacifier ready. You'll get it on Sept. 17th :)

    Go Cougars!

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    July 10, 2011 8:37 p.m.

    "The truth is most people watching the team in Provo football on ESPN will in fact want to see them lose very much so. And it's not because they have any real tradition.

    It's because the Cougars represent a religion many people tend not to like much. I know this as fact because I've lived outside of Utah and I too belong to the same religion."

    For one, ESPN won't care why people watch the game. They just care that a lot of people watch the game.

    Also, just because you lived in a place where Mormons are generally hated does not mean that in every place Mormons are hated. I think quite a few people will watch to cheer against BYU, for sure, but I also think that quite a lot recognize BYU as a good program with a good tradition. BYU isn't at the same level as the Lakers as far as people hating them.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    July 10, 2011 8:44 p.m.

    "There is so much blind speculation, hyperbole and rationalization by rabid cougar fans that you must be able to listen to and accept some facts that I've stated without trying to invent your own set of facts to support your wishes."

    mgr63, I don't think we can take you seriously if yo honestly believe that. Who's the one inventing facts (i.e. the 1984 championship wasn't real, BYU's independence decision was a knee-jerk reaction, etc.)? And then you folow up with:

    ""Sunday play" had nothing to do with it.....they probably said that to refract the facts that BYU's curriculum, lack of a medical school, extensive research, narrow undergrad and post grad programs, horrific science dept, guarded intellectual classes.....and on and on. All the reciprocal at PAC-12 schools. The education at BYU is way out there as it relates to PAC-12 academics and any other BCS conference for that matter."

    I'm not sure there's more than one true thing said in that whole section (BYU, by their own desicion, does in fact not have a medical program). Academically they are superior to half of the PAC schools, and do have research. Check the facts first.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    July 10, 2011 8:49 p.m.

    "@New to Utah

    Utah's QB, Jordan Wynn, was injured mid-season."

    Jake Heaps was injured during the Utah game. He played the rest of the Utah game and the bowl game (for which he was MVP) with a couple cracked ribs.

    An injured Heaps > healthy Wynn.

    If Anae had let Heaps continue his drive, BYU would have beat Utah despite the miracle punt by Utah (a punt so bad that it was amazingly beneficial for Utah), the blown call and replay (the knee was down: fact, not opinion), the gift TD for Utah by the referee, and the decision to go for it on 4th and inches rather than kick a FG (I don't necessarily think it was a blunder because fourth and inches aren't incredibly hard to get; in hindsight, BYU should have kicked).

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 10, 2011 9:37 p.m.

    I am glad BYU got their HD studio built. I really am. But take a look around. Their are currently four construction cranes on the U campus building big projects in the midst of a recession and none at BYU. Utah is busy building research, business education and medical facilities not TV studios. And doing it with private dollars because the legislature is too tight to fund them. But the progress goes on anyway. The PAC 10 presidents looked at that progress as much as the football program believe it or not.

    USC signed the equal revenue sharing agreement with the rest of the PAC 12 months ago before the TV deal was announced. They are not going indy so throw cold water on it.

    Say all you want about how great it is to be indy but you all know that BYU would join the PAC 12 today if invited. Utah should demand that it get the same deal as Texas or Notre Dame. Either two for one or four for two, take it or leave it.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 10, 2011 9:59 p.m.

    @Dutchman "Utah should demand that it get the same deal as Texas or Notre Dame. Either two for one or four for two, take it or leave it."

    Why? No offense, but the U definitely doesn't have the clout that Texas or Notre Dame have...and apparently the PAC 12 doesn't think they do either, which is why their marquee game with USC is on Versus, while Colorado's matchup with the Trojans is on ESPN2.

    The ugly truth for Ute fans is that Colorado has more clout in the PAC12 than the Utes right now. Sad, but true.

    Go Cougars!

  • NightOwlAmerica SALEM, OR
    July 10, 2011 10:37 p.m.

    Unbelievable. BYU fans live in a different reality, one made up of fantasy.
    Super schools like USC, Alabama and others mentioned will not go independent to change the bowl landscape. And what kind of chance would one of these super schools have with a .500 season? No bowl hopes. Get real people. I could see AQ conferences breaking away from the NCAA to do their own thing before a bunch of schools go independent.

  • USportsFan Magna, UT
    July 11, 2011 2:39 a.m.

    "Reality is, statistically Utah leads BYU in games won, winning %, head 2 head games, conference championships, undefeated seasons, bowl victories, and current NFL players."

    I love your selective stats that say for 40 years or since 1972... ect. Why don't you just go with the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

    Records:
    Utah 627-424-31 (0.579)
    BYU 512-380-26 (0.558)

    Wins - advantage Utah
    Winning percentage - advantage Utah

    Head to head wins:
    54-34 advantage Utah

    Conference Championships
    Utah: 26
    BYU: 23

    Advantage Utah

    Bowl Victories:
    Utah 12
    BYU 11

    Advantage Utah

    Even with BYU's "40+ year dominance" they still fall short of what Utah has accomplished.

    The biggest laugh I had from a BYU fans was the comment about Michigan. BYU WISHES that they had what Michigan has.
    884 wins
    11 claimed national titles
    42 conference titles
    19 bowl wins
    ~110k staduim
    They beat BYU in EVERY statistical category. They've been a little down in the last couple years. But I'm sure that will turn around soon.

    I agree with NighOwl, BYU fans do live in a fantasy world.

    Go Utes!

  • Classless Ute Fan Magna, UT
    July 11, 2011 2:53 a.m.

    @Hegdehog
    A school like USC could easily triple the new P12 deal by going Indy in football and leave your other sports in a now meaningless conference.

    Uhhh... really?
    Lets do the math. 4-5 mil/game with 6 home games = 24-30mil/year. With the new contract they will easily be getting that much. ~21 mil with Fox/ESPN contract. ~8-12 mil with PAC12 Network. They might make a deal with Google or apple for online and smart phone viewership for even more money. +conference bowls. +improved schedule with conference association. USC wanted a guaranteed 18-20 mil to agree to the equal sharing. They got that plus much more. USC isn't going to leave the PAC12 conference. They will be getting +$30MM/year. To make +$90-120MM/ year, they have to get 15-20 mil/game. You are dreaming if you think they would get that much more money from going indy.

    I think that Super Conferences more than Super Teams will be the future. How else would you get such a great offer from the networks?

    Take off the blue goggles for a minute and you might understand reason.

    Great to be a Ute.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 11, 2011 8:12 a.m.

    TrueCoug1,

    Versus and ESPN2 reach the same number of households. Versus = ESPN2.

    Again, USC is not going indy. They collaborate with too many PAC 12 schools on academic programs. They would never give that up for football indy. The USC faculty would revolt. Utah has already begun to benefit from the academic collaborations with the other PAC 12 schools. Witness that the PAC 12 schools will hold their annual Art and Sciences Deans meeting in SLC next year.

    Granted, the MWC conference really had little to offer in terms of academic associations so BYU going indy does not miss out on anything in that realm, but as an independent who do they have to collaborate with academically? I guess Utah will have to play that role because there is a history of such between the two schools.

  • Chris Bryant SLC, UT
    July 11, 2011 8:56 a.m.

    @RivertonCoug,

    ha ha really? fact that his knee was down? someone has been letting wrubell do his thinking for him...............

  • Bleed Crimson Sandy, Utah
    July 11, 2011 9:29 a.m.

    @ truecoug1

    "I'll take independence any day...it's the future of college football, everybody knows this"

    Nope! The Super Conferences are the future of College Football and Utah will be in one of those Super Conferences. When that time comes, all the Independent schools and non-aq schools will become even more irrelevent. (That includes byu and Boise State) Don't be suprised when Notre Dame jumps ship to the Big 10.

  • Bugoff Houston, TX
    July 11, 2011 10:35 a.m.

    As faculty your academic ties have nothing to do with football. Those are based on mutual research interests or personal friendships.

    Further, if football makes more money that frees other money up for academic pursuits. And if the University is run well some football money goes directly into academics. But the biggest boost comes from happy football boosters who put money into academic aspects of the University. Someone has to pay for the funded chairs. It is often happy football boosters.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 11, 2011 1:18 p.m.

    Bugoff,

    Your last post has so many falisies in it that I don't even know where to begin so I won't even try.

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 11, 2011 1:23 p.m.

    @Dutchman "Versus and ESPN2 reach the same number of households. Versus = ESPN2."

    False statement. My parents-in-law (who I'm currently living) have the basic direcTV package which comes with ESPN and ESPN2, but not, curiously enough, Versus. Through most satellite or cable companies, in order to get Versus, you have to upgrade from their basic package.

    However, ESPN and ESPN2 are standard on all packages...as is BYUTV, interestingly enough.

    As I said before, the PAC 12 respects Colorado more than they respect U. Sad, but true.

    Go Cougars!

  • byu116970 Tooele, Utah
    July 11, 2011 1:34 p.m.

    enough with the chest pounding were in a bcs conference and your not,or with our history we deserved to be invited not you.
    lets look at this years outlook you looked horrible in spring ball and it looks like its not a just add wynn fix, your mediocre defence lost a few quality players from last years team that couldnt beat any good teams and needed help to beat byu.
    next year you will be breaking a new QB unless wynn gets hurt and your new backups play most of this year,ask byu what its like to use a new QB for the entire season and it was only the MWC.
    As for which team has the better outlook, on paper yes utah can get into a NC game and has better access to a bcs game, but unless they get tons of good players soon that wont be for a long long time. how many years of 6-6 7-5, or worse are going to take till you ask for your coachs head and attendance plummets just to big in the big boys club.
    sept 17 cant come soon enough for the utes to disapeer

  • Y Grad / Y Dad Richland, WA
    July 11, 2011 2:41 p.m.

    "Lord make my words soft, tender and sweet, for tomorrow I may be forced to eat them."

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 11, 2011 2:52 p.m.

    TrueCoug1,

    I did some research and it appears that both ESPN2 and Versus reach about 99.5 million households as of June 2011. Number of households reached is the only thing that matters.

    I don't know what you mean by stating the PAC 12 respects Colorado more than Utah. The PAC 12 has asked Utah to host the Women's Gymnastics Championships next year in 2012 and has also asked Salt Lake City to submit a bid to host the Men's and Women's Basketball Tournament in Salt Lake City after this year. Salt Lake City will be competing with other PAC 12 cities but they were specifically asked to bid. Also, the PAC 12's annual Arts and Sciences Deans' meeting will be held in Salt Lake City next spring.

    So, I ask you, where is the disrespect. I don't see it.

  • Chris Bryant SLC, UT
    July 11, 2011 3:01 p.m.

    @byu116970

    is that the best you got? come on man, you left out the part about our running game which will be a complete joke and our offensive line that won't hold up. In fact, Whittingham might have to walk around campus and recruit some obese guys just to field a line! and then, you didn't cap off your obviously unbiased prediction by going "LOL!"

    you are very disappointing.

  • Riverton Cougar Riverton, Utah
    July 11, 2011 3:47 p.m.

    "ha ha really? fact that his knee was down? someone has been letting wrubell do his thinking for him............... "

    No, after having watched the replay multiple times it should be quite obvious. I suggest you take of your crimson colored glasses when you watch it. I was at the game when it happened. Ironically, they didn't show that replay at all (they might have shown it once) when they were reviewing it, which was standard procedure for plays that were in favor of BYU. Everyone-- even the Ute fans-- were shocked by the result.

    And by the way, there are two BIG differences between this incident and the SDSU incident:
    1) BYU did not facemask any Ute players on that play, therefore the fumble is the only factor in the correct outcome of the play, and
    2) BYU players openly admit that the ball was fumbled against SDSU, while Utah fans refuse to admit that the replay was incorrect (as far as the play overall being correct, see #1).

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 11, 2011 5:28 p.m.

    @Dutchman "I don't know what you mean by stating the PAC 12 respects Colorado more than Utah."

    I'm referring to the football aspect, and the fact that the PAC 12 decided to put the Colorado Buffs/USC Trojans game on ESPN2, which reaches 99 million homes, as opposed to putting the Utah/USC game on Versus, which reaches 79 million homes (I don't know where you were getting your numbers from, I got mine from ESPN channel website and Versus channel website).

    Considering the recent history of the two football programs, I would've thought it to be reversed. That, coupled with the fact that Colorado is appearing on TV more than Utah this year, makes me come to the conclusion that the PAC 12 respects Colorado more than the Utes.

    As to gymnastics, it's not surprising they would want to hold the PAC Championship in SLC, the Utes have a rockin' gymnastic team. Also, academically, there's no question the U outshines Colorado.

    I'm just talking football here, which I thought this article was referring to :)

    Go Cougars!

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2011 4:48 a.m.

    @Dutchman

    Also, the Pac 10 intentially invited Colorado right up front as part of a planned expansion. They ended up inviting Utah last as a fallback option when their plans blew up in their faces and the 5 other teams they really wanted said no way.

    The evidence is mounting that the Pac 10.2 doesn't respect the Utes, if you want to get a healthy dose of reality go read some message boards in Pac 10.2 country and you'll see. Add that to the fact that they wouldn't give you any good TV games compared to Colorado and it becomes pretty clear.

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2011 5:16 a.m.

    @truecoug1
    "Also, academically, there's no question the U outshines Colorado"

    I'm not so sure, Colorado is a member of the very exclusing AAU (Association of American Universities) and Utah is not. Also, this past year Colorado secured over $847 million in sponsored research while Utah got roughly only half of that (and it was a record year for Utah at that).

    Utah doesn't even have a better medical school according to US News & World Report. Colorado ranks #4 in Primary Care and #38 in research and is significantly larger. Utah is well behind the curve at #26 in Primary Care and #54 in research and has half the enrollment of Colorado. Utah also lags far behind UWash, Stanford, Cal-Berkeley, UCLA, etc in primary care and/or research ranking.

    So, no...I don't think you can honestly or realistically say that the U outshines Colorado academically. Nor does it outshine very many schools in the Pac 10.2 (maybe Washington State or Arizona State).

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2011 5:33 a.m.

    @Classless Ute Fan
    You left out the $$$ USC would get from broadcasting their own games on their own network that aren't picked up by the major network deal. And $4-5 million is less than conservative if you consider that BYU got nearly that much to play Oklahoma at the new Cowboys Stadium in 2009.

    You also left out the fact that USC would get to keep the $25 million or so they'd get from their BCS Bowl appearance. Putting it all together would conservatively net USC around $85-90 million per year just from football then you add in what they'd get from their other sports that are still in the Pac 10.2

    Just because their football team went Indy wouldn't affect any academic associations they have within the conference since their 20+ other sports programs are still in the Pac 10.2

    The level of greed right now in college football is of epic proportions or have you not read the sports section lately? Big time football schools are imploding with greed and crooked practices. You're crazy if you don't think the "Haves" in college football aren't looking at how they can get even more.

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2011 5:44 a.m.

    @NighterlAmerica
    "And what kind of chance would one of these super schools have with a .500 season? No bowl hopes."

    Huh? They'd have the same bowl hopes they do now? They'd set up contingency bowl agreements with a number of major and minor bowls to assure they have a landing spot no matter what type of season they have.

    What...do you think a bowl committee will refuse a marquee team like Alabama becuase they went 9-3 or 8-4? Alabama is a big draw where ever and bowl committees would be lining up to sign them to an agreement if they were Indy.

    And, by going Indy they wouldn't have to worry about that end of the season heartbreaking loss in the Conference Championship game like they do now. If it wasn't for the CCG in 2008 Alabama would have been playing for the National Championship instead of Florida.

    The truth is nobody knows what the future holds here, but don't be naive and think that they're not paying attention to the deal that Texas got and thinking what can they do to get more? These schools are greedy and competitive (bad combination).

  • truecoug1 Provo, UT
    July 12, 2011 8:22 a.m.

    @BadCougar

    Well stated, thanks for the facts. I was surprised by them, since I legitimately thought the U would have a better academic program than Colorado. Thanks for proving me wrong :)

    I was also trying to make Dutchman feel better about his school :)

    Go Cougars!

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    July 12, 2011 8:59 a.m.

    @Dutchman

    " Their are currently four construction cranes on the U campus building big projects in the midst of a recession and none at BYU."

    That is false. Yes utah is currently building some facilities, my firm is currently working at the University Neuropsychiatric Unit at the UofU.

    I also have 3 large projects at BYU right now. They are doing a complete rebuild of the Deseret Towers student housing, it is a very large project in the hundred million dollar range, another rebuild of Heritage Halls, once again millions of dollars, the south campus road relocation project which includes building several tunnels and relocating an entire roadway and they are about to build an all new science building that is a 100 million plus dollar building.

    All projects are funded by a mix of University funds and donor dollars, the new science building in particular is going to be an amazing building.

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 12, 2011 11:10 a.m.

    Duckhunter,

    I will give you the student housing projects at BYU. That is good and they are needed but I didn't include housing projects at the U just the academic projects. So, BYU has Deseret Towers but the U has the honors student housing under construction at the corner of South Campus Drive and Mario Cappetti (?) Way.

    Also, when the new Natural History Museum opens this fall in research park the vacated building on Presidents' Circle is going to be renovated into a $100 million science center. The Art and Architecture Building south of the Marriott Library is also under renovation.

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2011 1:01 p.m.

    @truecoug1
    "I was also trying to make Dutchman feel better about his school :)"

    I could tell you were trying to do that. Brownie points in heaven for you. ;) I guess that really does make me a bad cougar because I was trying to take that away! Lol!

  • Dutchman Murray, UT
    July 12, 2011 1:12 p.m.

    BigCougar,

    Regarding expansion, Texas AD DeLoss Dodds who was in on the plan from the beginning manipulated the process and played everyone like a fiddle to get what he wanted for the U of Texas. He had no intention of joining the PAC 16. The teams that were to be part of the PAC 16 are a matter of speculation but some scenarios included Utah. The point is, the plan failed and Larry Scott went to the plan he knew would work all along and that was the PAC 12 with Colorado and Utah.

    Regarding med school rankings let's include all the rankings. Utah is ranked number 2 for the specialty of physician assistant training, Family medicine ranks 15th. Pharmacy ranks number 16, physical therapy comes in at number 19, nursing is at 36th, up 11 spots from the year before, and nursing-midwifery is ranked 8th. Of course Colorado has more med students enrolled in their programs, they also have a larger population to serve.

  • Duckhunter Highland, UT
    July 12, 2011 3:57 p.m.

    @Dutchman

    What does it matter what the buildings are that are being built? Your point was that utah is building during a recession and BYU isn't but that simply isn't the case. Both Universities are actually building agressively based on what they currently need.

    As a contractor I can tell you that there are two entities right now that have money and are building facilities and infrastructure in this state. They are the government (UofU is owned by the government) and the LDS church (which owns BYU). Those two entities have carried the construction industry in this state for the last few years during the current economic situation. Both have built very large projects of various types and are currently building more.

    BYU actually has a very agressive construction schedule right now and for the next few years, so does the University of Utah. I'm gald that they do as it keeps me in work.

  • BigCougar Bountiful, UT
    July 12, 2011 5:47 p.m.

    @Dutchman
    "The point is, the plan failed and Larry Scott went to the plan he knew would work all along"

    Then why on earth didn't they offer Utah when they offered Colorado? And if they knew that Texas had no intention of joining then why go along with the charade only to go with the plan "he knew would work all along".

    That sort of makes Scott look like a sap who is easily goaded into doing things that he knows will only make him look foolish but he does it anyways with hope that the "cool guys" at school will accept him.

    The bottom line is, it doesn't matter what Texas' intentions were now that we know after the fact what they did. What matters is that Larry Scott and the Pac 10 went all the way down the road with them with the full belief that they were going to get them. When it backfired they had to find a plan B and quick. It's not like the East Coast where they could have found numerous options to fill the slot. They really had no where else to turn when the defecated matter hit the oscilating rotator.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 12, 2011 8:18 p.m.

    Does anyone think this "atomic" comments stream has reached its half-life yet?

  • Classless Ute Fan Magna, UT
    July 13, 2011 12:41 a.m.

    @BigCougar,

    When it backfired they had to find a plan B and quick.

    Do you really think that they had to "find" a plan B? You don't think that they had multiple plans and approvals from University Presidents? Come on, Larry Scott is a pretty smart person. Here are the facts that we know.
    Larry offered a place in the PAC-10 for Colorado. They accepted.
    Larry offered a group deal for all 5 other universities to join. If 1 said no, then the deal was off. Obviously Texas got the others to stay.

    This may have been a charade for everyone. You don't know that this whole thing wasn't orchestrated by Larry Scott and Texas to both get what they wanted. Texas looks like the savior of the conference and gets more money for their part. Larry gets to expand and bring attention for his conference. Yes, Utah isn't as nice of an deal as getting Oklahoma, Texas, and A&M (who really wanted SEC anyway).

    Point is, PAC10 wasn't likely to get all 5 universities to accept the offer. Therefore, Colorado-Utah option was the most likely to happen.

    But you can believe whatever you want.

  • Classless Ute Fan Magna, UT
    July 13, 2011 12:58 a.m.

    Hegdehog

    You left out the $$$ USC would get from broadcasting their own games on their own network that aren't picked up by the major network deal.

    Actually, USC would only have broadcast rights and get paid for the 6 home games that they host. So, I didn't forget anything.

    You also left out the fact that USC would get to keep the $25 million or so they'd get from their BCS Bowl appearance.

    You talk about that like they are guaranteed a spot every year. So, IF they go to a BCS game, they would get the independent payout of $15MM.

    Just because their football team went Indy wouldn't affect any academic associations they have within the conference since their 20+ other sports programs are still in the Pac 10.2

    Actually, if USC goes independent, they would FIRST have to get the PAC 12 to agree to that. And I don't see that happening. Since the PAC 12 is the ONLY power conference in the West, USC really don't have too many options when it comes to joining another conference for the other sports. Besides, most other sports don't make money.
    (to be continued)

  • Classless Ute Fan Magna, UT
    July 13, 2011 1:31 a.m.

    continued...

    The level of greed right now in college football is of epic proportions or have you not read the sports section lately? Big time football schools are imploding with greed and crooked practices. You're crazy if you don't think the "Haves" in college football aren't looking at how they can get even more.

    Yes, I know that schools are looking into making more money. Didn't you hear that the PAC 12 made history with the largest TV contract for college sports in the world? Even though they are getting all that loads of money, they still retain the rights to start their own network and broadcast their top choice games. I'm sure that Texas, Oklahoma, and the other Big 12 schools are kicking themselves for not joining the PAC10 to be the first super conference. Having the biggest and most powerful conference in NCAA. Every big school with a major following West of the Mississippi would belong. The monumental TV contract the PAC 12 just got would have been much bigger with a bigger payout to each school. Even Texas won't getting/year what the PAC12 will be.

    Think about it, the Super conference will happen.

  • Hegdehog Bountiful, UT
    July 13, 2011 3:18 p.m.

    @classlessutefan
    speaking of charades and believing whatever you want...

    If USC were to follow the model and launch their own private network they would get to benefit financially from the games that their major network deal doesn't cover. Why else have your own network?

    USC in total control of their schedule would be a lock nearly every year for a BCS bowl game. USC has a brand that none of the other teams in the pac10.2 can come close to. If they decided to leave what other BCS conference wouldn't want them? They'd have their pick of homes.

    And the only reason the new Pac 10.2 deal is the biggest is because it's the newest. College football is at an all time high in popularity. Most of the other conferences signed their deals years ago before college football exploded. It is now 2nd to the NFL in popularity.

    Many of the other conference's TV deals come due in 2014 and then you'll see the Big 12 and SEC land huge deals too. It's nothing special about the Pac 10.2, just fortuitous timing on their part.

  • WhatsInItForMe Orem, Utah
    July 13, 2011 4:02 p.m.

    Classless Ute Fan is likely correct that the evenutality of college football is superconferences (16 teams each). Oddly, that'll account for nearly all football schools, both current BCS and non-AQ conference schools.

    HOWEVER, Texes, et al, won't go the Pac route to get into a super conference. They'll fold into the Big 10 & SEC. Better cache and less issues there, including closer travel.

    That leaves the Pac with having to accept 4 old WAC/MWC teams to get to their 16 teams. And, BYU won't be one of them for all the known reasons (mostly bigotry), so they won't have much to choose from.

    Which, of course, delutes the Pac's strength in comparison to the other big superconferences. At least initially. Maybe over time they can rebound.

    Whether BYU and Notre Dame (and probobly Army & Navy) remain independent with superconferences out there is debatable. All depends on how the high-paying bowl berths would shake out.

    It's even possible that with the advent of superconferences, BYU and ND might be joined as independents with the likes of Texas and Florida, etc.

    For sure, the college landscape will be different by the end of this decade.

  • showmeyatd's Pleasant View, Utah
    July 13, 2011 11:50 p.m.

    BYU has set themselves up nice!!! It's a great fit for how our program is run. No more problems with Sunday play, and we can make our own future. As a business owner I can see why they want to do this. Play whoever they want whenever they want. No more Hair Thompson pulling stupid moves and setting back an already basement confined conference. Honestly the Pac fits Utah better and Independence fits us better. Utah makes more money per season which is obvious with the 22 or so million. The thing is BYU will always have 50 times more money than the Utes. It's hard to fathom how much money our church has. If we want new facilities we build them. BCS money or not we have the means to get things done. The Utes can't say that. The thing that still makes me laugh is this: Utah went to the Pac and should be getting all the media attention. Then reactionary or not BYU stole all of there thunder. If we had stayed in the Mountain Worst Utes would be talked about all day and night. Now it's debatable who has it better:)

  • Classless Ute Fan Magna, UT
    July 13, 2011 11:59 p.m.

    Hegdehog,

    ***If USC were to follow the model and launch their own private network they would get to benefit financially from the games that their major network deal doesn't cover. Why else have your own network?***

    Their own network would only cover the games that they are in charge of, you know, home games. Their other network deal wouldn't give them anything because when they play away games, it is the other school's TV contract that dictates. Therefore, only home teams make money from their TV contract.

    When you play an away game the home team will pay the visiting team to come play. I may be wrong but I think that I read that BYU was going to pay like 700k - 1.2mil for teams to visit Provo. Some teams pay more than others and some teams can demand more than others. That is the reason the big teams have 1 and done or 2-1 deals. Money does rule all.

    Why would USC leave the PAC12 only to join another BCS conference? That makes no sense. I'm sure that SEC will get a bigger TV deal when they renew, but probably not the Big12.

  • One Nil to the Arsenal! Gilbert, AZ
    July 14, 2011 10:24 a.m.

    @ Showmeyatd's

    "The thing is BYU will always have 50 times more money than the Utes. It's hard to fathom how much money our church has. If we want new facilities we build them."

    Thanks for reminding me why I don't pay tithing anymore.

  • TheHailstorm South Weber, UT
    July 15, 2011 1:41 p.m.

    @ Duhkunter,
    " my firm is currently working at the University Neuropsychiatric Unit at the UofU ".
    Better keep your ID handy, they may not let you out.