The LDS position is that Unless one accepts the LDS religion as the
true one, he/she will not have the same opportunities in the afterlife as the
LDS.Do you really not understand why others do not warmly welcome
the LDS?The LDS imply (or outright claim) religious superiority over
ALL OTHER religions and then cry foul when others push back.Now,
some of you can spin the teachings to make them "softer", but the
implication is there and it is a fair characterization.
I don't know why his speech should offend anyone. I personally thought it was a
nice one. Lots of religions out there have wonderful and beautiful aspects to
them. The church does teach us this is the case. Maybe they are having an issue
with this speech because members say of the church that it is the only true
church out there and then they hear a member say something like this in a
speech. It is true all religions do point to God and have some very
good principles to live by. It is hard to explain how we believe this is true in
one speech let alone one comment.
I'll take the argument a step further and suggest that a candidate's faith or
lack thereof should not be a factor at all. A simple look at the recent crop of
adulterers - Ensign, Vitter, Lee, Edwards - all who wore their faith like a
merit badge, is enough to tell us that professed faith is an unreliable metric
at best. In my life, its those people who use their faith as
credibility that have proven to be the least honest and trustworthy. The three
most honest people I've ever known was a rancher in Croydon Utah - a devout
Mormon who never used his faith as a measure of his integrity. A Jewish business
woman in Ogden and a logistics expert in Oklahoma - neither of whom had any
belief in a deity. I can see no relationship between faith and
integrity/capability.I'd like to believe that Romney was telling the
truth and I liked the sentiment. Unfortunately, he has a history of telling his
crowd what he thinks they want to hear. My guess is that is was written by a
good speech writer and that he was trying to water down his faith. That is a
I'll try to explain, then, in the basic missionary style.Latter-day Saints
believe that God always calls prophets to establish his organization and reveal
his word and will for a particular era of time. This happened through the
operations of Adam, Enoch, Noah, Abraham and Moses, down to Jesus Christ. When
Christ was here, He established a church with 12 apostles, He being the head. He
gave them the authority to act in God's name to baptize, give the gift of the
Holy Ghost-- the baptism of fire-- and the ability to perform miracles when
necessary and receive revelation for Christ's organization. That authority is
called the priesthood.After the resurrection of Christ and His departure
from the earth, His apostles and other ordained ministers like Stephen went into
the world they knew to preach the gospel. They were rejected and killed, and
thus the authority died with them, as it had done generations before. However, as the world became enlightened in all aspects, the Lord once again
called a prophet in the little-educated Joseph Smith to established His word in
the modern day, in preparation for the second coming of Christ.
And with that said, it's important to know the Latter-day Saint doctrine is that
everyone will have the opportunity to hear the fullness of the Lord's teachings
and have equal opportunity to receive them, whether here on earth or after they
pass. For this reason, Latter-day Saints, in faith, perform ordinances such as
baptism in the temples on behalf of those who have passed on so they can receive
the ordinances that they can no longer do for themselves. Thus, when they rise
again from the dead with a whole, perfected body, they will have the full
opportunity to know their Creator and obey accordingly.
@Joe Blow--"The LDS position is that Unless one accepts the LDS religion as
the true one, he/she will not have the same opportunities in the afterlife as
the LDS"Here's the short answer to the above. We
believe that all people will inherit a degree of glory because they choose to
come to earth in the pre-mortal world. As to which degree (or level) of glory
is really up to the individual. Yes, the highest level is for those who live
and have the ordinances done with the proper authority, but even the lowest
degree is much better/beautiful/glorious than where we are living now. Again this was the short answer and there is more to it, but who can
explain it all in comments? However, you can visit the churches website and
find out more by asking to chat or meet with a missionary. If people don't get
to hear about it here; then they will have an opportunity to learn in the next
life. No other church teaches this principle: Baptisms for the dead by proxy.
They can reject the baptism or except it. U R Always a free to choose.
@joeblowHow is that any different from Catholics or Protestants?
They all believe that unless you accept Christ according to their terms, you do
not have the same opportunities in the afterlife as they do.At least
LDS doctrine provides a way for those who never accepted Christ, through no
fault of their own, to have the very same opportunities as everybody else.
I've never seen a religion spend so much energy worrying about what the media
thinks, yet behave in such a way that demonstrates how little they are willing
to earn good press. To hence: Prop 8 was a media fiasco and the LDS
church earned every bit of bad press they got as a result. What did they think
was going to happen? 31 or so years prior to the orchestration of prop 8, many
were still trying to defend the church's racist policies against black people.
Winning media approval is easy. You start acting like you care about
people with different values. You stop trying to incorporate your religion into
secular law. You stop punishing young adults for having wedding ceremonies that
include all their loved ones (by not making them wait a year for a sealing
afterward) and you, in general, acknowledge that not everybody is going to come
around to your belief system either here or in the next life and that's okay.
But continuing on the course that the church is currently on, they are not
going to get a lot of positive media approval any time soon. It's simple choice
Joeblow,while most of your statments are true to a point, I think
you fail to understand the LDS church and the teachings. Most
Christian Churches teach that there is one heaven and one hell. You are either
going to one or the other. If you not a follower of Christ then you will go to
hell. Now compare this with the LDS church. Yes, we do believe in a hell but
the we believe that only few will go to this hell (the same hell that most
christians believe in that many will go).To recieve the highest
reward (kingdom)we must be worthy, for Justice must be meant. However those who
have failed or wandered off will still be in his heaven (lower kingdoms) for
also his mercy must be meant.If anything the LDS church teaches the
most pure form of love and forgivness that is the cornerstone of Jesus Christ
messege when he came and died and atoned for our sins.
@moniker lewinsky-What you don't understand is that this church is run by Jesus
Christ himself or maybe you do know this, not sure since you did not say. Christ was even unpopular in his time. This "advertising" is
not to gain popularity. I think you misunderstood the church's intentions. It is
to give people the opportunity to learn more if they want to. As for
acknowledging that not everyone will come around in this life or the next, we
know this, but this does not free us from the responsibility given to us as
members or the church, for that matter, to give people the opportunity to
listen. They have a God-given right called agency to say "No, I don't want
to learn more." Or "Yes, please let me find this out for myself."
@moniker lewinsky--Part 2...I ran out of room. NO pressure at all.
No one is forced to go to the websites of the church, talk to a member or even
the missionaries. If they come to your door and ask to speak to you, you can
turn them away. God gave us all the power to choose for ourselves. We are not
the drones people make us out to be or think we want others to be. We just ask
for you to find out from us who we are and what we believe in. This is what this
campaign is about. I don't think this is too much to ask.
The nation and the world has more than enough problems for the time being
without an additional problem of having a mormon of questinable and
controversial qualities in the white house. The nation needs a president that we
can believe in, understand and know who and what he/she is. We need someone we
can identify with and trust.
The Economist piece (and an additional post it links to) are well worth reading.
@sergio-That's an unusual sentiment, "The nation and the world has more
than enough problems for the time being without an additional problem of having
a mormon of questinable and controversial qualities in the white house."
You seem to believe that there are politicians out there with such positive
qualities that they would do better than Mitt Romney, or any other
politician.There's a reason Thomas Paine identified Government as
"at best, a necessary evil". This nation suffers, not from
"having a Mormon in the white house", but having career politicians in
the white house. I haven't seen any candidate in the last three decades or so
that I would really "identify with and trust". A Mormon career
politician is no different.
I'm very critical of government, and feel that we've fallen far from the more
ideal (not perfect) government established by our founding fathers. I say that,
not from the perspective of a Christian, but as a Freemason who shares the same
ideals as several of them. And lastly, your critical assessment of a
man's religion as making him suitable for government is a primary reason the
Constitution contains a clause forbidding religious test for office. Thank
goodness you didn't write it.
I wonder what people would think about the church if they knew what they did in
the temple.....they world may never know!
JoeBlow:I'm thinking that most religions believe they are
"true." If not, why are THEY so concerned about US? If other people
don't believe their religion is "true" then why bother? If it
"might be true" or it "might not be true"...how does it have
the faith to SAVE people?While the beliefs of Mormons might be
strong, isn't that the kind of faith that really saves? If it really is true,
it pushes people to go, and to do. Not to sit there twiddling our thumbs waiting
to be "saved."
@Jeff R: Can't imagine what you think is happening in our temples that would
shock the world. I think the extreme 'right' shoots themselves in the foot by
opposing Mormons in the political arena, as most Mormon politicians are fiscally
conservative, morally conservative, and stand for most if not all that the
political right stands for. That means they oppose them simply because of the
church they attend and not their political ideals. Now who is judging people for
all the wrong reasons?
Jeff R,Contact me and I can hook you up with the missionaries.
After you are baptized and take some classes then you too can find all about
what happens in the temple. Otherwise please make no comments on something you
have no clue on. Have a great day
@moniker lewinskyYou, like many others are simply ignorant as to the LDS Churchs
stance on Prop 8. The Church has nothing against the gay community having the
same rights as all other citizens. The failing of Prop 8 will simply open the
door to make it mandatory for LDS Social Services to offer adoption services to
everyone, including gay couples in CA. This will not happen. Just as in other
States where same-sex marriages are allowed, most LDS adoption services will
cease to exist in CA, which is very sad. Prop 8 might also open the
door to gay couples insisting that their wedding ceremonies be performed within
the sanctuary of LDS chapels or templeswhich will also not happen. These are
the consequence of a failed Prop 8, which was not the will of the people of Ca.
Continuing on Joe Blow's theme:What he brings up is actually an
evangelical/Baptist doctrine, that only those who believe a certain way are
saved and all others damned. The LDS believe that anyone, regardless of
religious affiliation, can return to live with God in the hereafter. There are
requirements, like the proper babtism, but means are provided so that every one
will have the chance to get it. Heaven is not a Mormon only club in that
Elk Bowhunter is correct. Utah has never been against civil unions for gays and
has supported their rights to things like medical insurance, death benefits,
etc. It has only taken a stand on gay marriages for reasons like those stated
by Elk Bowhunter. As a mother whose daughter is in the process of adopting her
second baby through LDS Social Services, I know how devastating it would be for
those services to be closed down for an entire state. I personally have nothing
against gays being joined civilly through the state, but I don't think churches
should be forced to perform those wedding ceremonies. I have gay friends who
are married in every respect except a marriage certificate and as long as all of
their civil rights are protected a 'rose by any other name is still a rose'. I
also have gay friends who were married legally in CA and are now bitterly
divorced; that piece of paper didn't seem to matter.
"There are requirements, like the proper babtism (sic)"Let
me re-phrase that for you in terms that EVERYONE can understand.There are requirements, like accepting and being baptized into the LDS
religion. (while dead or alive)So, in reality, it is a "Mormon
only club"See, That wasn't so hard.There are many
cases where the LDS side step a question or skirt around the real answer because
they know how it will look to others. The ole Milk before Meat mentality.Sometimes it borders on deceit. Please, just say what you mean. And to a degree, some other religions do teach the you have to be
"one of them" to get to Heaven.I think they are wrong
also. But, that is the nature of religion.Everyone wants and claims to be
the true one.How about this. Be honest. Treat others with respect.
Love your neighbor.Dont steal or cheat or harm others.Follow
those rules and maybe, just maybe, your religion doesn't matter one bit.
@Joeblow - So whose baptism is the right one? We follow Christ, do you? This is
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As has been said, everyone will
have the opportunity to accept or reject true baptism by those in authority. @ Jeff R. - I too wonder what you think goes on in temples. My experience has
been sweet and truly joyful at having been a part of giving someone who has
passed from this life an opportunity to enjoy the same blessings I've had. How
could that be so wrong?
I am a member and I have been in the Temple. Only my experiance was not a very
good one and it is because I went to the temple, that my faith in the LDS church
has been shattered.
As a Latter-day Saint, I have NEVER had the opportunity to vote for a president
according to his religion. Why now?
I do not find the LDS position on church membership markedly different from most
other Christian churches. More improtantly, it is what I read in the Holy Bible,
"As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue
shall confess to God." Though others might find free will
overridden here, I do not think that's the meaning -- nor is our consistent
teaching that we must be one, or we are not His. Sounds like,
eventually, we will indeed be one happy family, with "one Lord, one faith,
I'm not entirely sure why this thread has turned into a referendum on the
various stances of the Mormon church. There is no church that would please
everyone. That said, we should rely on facts and there have been several
misstatements. It was good to hear so many Mormons professing a
willingness to offer Civil Unions - Utah still doesn't offer them. As for Prop8,
the claim that the church is afraid of being forced to acknowledge gays is
nonsensical. No such no such provisions exists. It's a political statement that
doesn't match the records obtained in the trial. Claiming that you believe in
equal rights except for is not equal. The arguments sound eerily familiar to
those made against race discrimination and interracial marriage - another faux
pas of the LDS church. To be clear, a church position does not equal the
position of it's members. Claiming that religion doesn't matter is
also a bit silly. How many of you would vote for a well-credentialed atheist?
Religion matters whether it should or not.
@ Speed66: I have intelligent, hard working, compassionate, politically savy
friends who I would vote for in a minute, regardless of the fact that they are
atheists. They are better 'Christians' than many church goers I know. I didn't
say that religion does not matter with most voters, I think I said that it
should not matter. I have seen little proof that our Senators and Congressmen
who are supposed to be Christians have an edge on morality or honesty in their
lives. I would take an honest, moral atheist over someone like Weiner any day.
After all, did not our country's forefathers argue for separation of church and
state? Let's carry that over to our voting patterns.
To my knowledge, no other major "Christian" religion has statements
canonized in their sacred scriptures that condemn all other religions.But the LDS scriptures have this:"...they were ALL wrong;
...ALL their creeds were an abomination in [God's] sight; that those professors
were ALL corrupt; that: 'they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts
are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form
of godliness, but they deny the power thereof'" (Pearl of Great
Price, Joseph Smith History 1:19).That is a sweeping indictment and
condemnation of all other religions and all other preachers, pastors, teachers,
and leaders of all other religions, and it is contained in the official, sacred,
canonical "scriptures" of the LDS Church.I think that is a
"I wonder what people would think about the church if they knew what they
did in the temple.....they world may never know! "I think your
statement makes it quite clear. In the temples they find out how many licks it
takes to get to the tootsie roll center of a tootsie pop.
"The failing of Prop 8 will simply open the door to make it mandatory for
LDS Social Services to offer adoption services to everyone, including gay
couples in CA. This will not happen."It won't happen even if
gay marriage is legal, as long as LDS Social Services (I thought it was Family
services since I'd been calling it LDSFS... maybe I'm wrong about that) doesn't
take gov't money which as far as I know of, they don't. That's why they've had
no problems in Mass unlike Catholic Charities.
"Prop 8 might also open the door to gay couples insisting that their
wedding ceremonies be performed within the sanctuary of LDS chapels or
templeswhich will also not happen. "It won't happen because
that'd be unconstitutional. Think about it, the LDS church can ban any kind of
marriage it wants from being performed in the temples right now. You don't see
unworthy mormons or people of other religions suing in order to marry in the
temple. You know why? The case would be thrown out. Churches can do what they
want with their own buildings and gay marriage is not one iota of a threat to
to A Scientist: It is true that Joseph Smith was told that at the time there
were churches who had parts of the original gospel as set out by Christ when He
was upon the earth, but they also contained some doctrines that were not
completely correct. Joseph was instructed to wait so that with the Book of
Mormon and revelation, all doctrines of the original church could be restored.
The Mormon church does not condemn all other churches but celebrates the truths
they do have and the good they do. We simply believe that the restoration
brought a more complete gospel understanding, clarifying some confusing
doctrines, especially those set down in the NIcean Creed. The Book of Mormon is
a second testament of Jesus Christ and teaches us to love our neighbor not
condemn them. Mormons will not be the only ones in Heaven.
Maryquilter,Your claims are not supported by any canonized
scripture. Nowhere in the LDS Standard Works is there anything even suggesting
that "the Mormon Church does not condemn all other churches but celebrates
the truths they do have...". Nowhere.By stark contrast, your
claims are in direct opposition to the quotes I gave from canonized LDS
scripture.It is a shame when LDS mis-represent their Church's true
doctrine all in the name of popularity, isn't it?
I don't really care if you think our doctrine is what it should be. Summus quod
summus.. . .dealwiddit. We don't believe anything that would disqualify anyone
from public office, except that corruption is wrong, and truth and right are
worth givning your life for. As for me, I haven't believed in a political
candidate since Bobby Kennedy, and I don't think he could get elected now. What
I fear is that any candidate that starts out Mormon won't be Mormon enough to
matter by the time the whole, sordid election process is done. I don't know if
any follower of the ancient Hebrew/Christian ethic (ten commandments) could be
elected president without so much compromise it's hardly worth it. It's just
embarrassing to see our people lose their principles in public. If I find a
candidate I can support, I'll vote for him or her, Mormon or not. And no one
needs to think the Republican party owns the Mormons, they don't. Maybe we need
a third party for people who are tired of trickle-down economics (I'm pretty
tired of being trickled on, aren't you?) and fed up with situational ethics.
Cincinnatus, where are you?
Any mention of the mormon temple by anyone who knows little to nothing about it
is treading on dangerous ground and that is not because I said it. Its because
it is true.I hear comments that sound too much like slander.I hope they stop and
we raise our level of conversation.