Latino community activist Tony Yapias said it was his understanding that
Callejas-Hernandez . . . had not committed any crimes."We'd
have a much better system, much better control, if we were able to legalize a
lot more of the people who are already here."That's perfect
double-talk. His statement "if we were able to legalize"
confirms the fact that Mr. Yapias realizes they had, indeed, committed a crime.
Obviously being here illegally shows they did break the law. And those that
continue to encourage it are breaking the law also.
ComSen1's and RRB's comments perfectly demonstrate the tautological thinking on
the right on this issue. This issue centers on the fact that the laws as they
now stand do not square with the economic or moral reality of the situation.
Consequently, enforcement-only approaches are inadequate because they involve
the enforcement of laws that do not square with the economic or moral reality of
the situation. So, we talk about crafting the laws in a way that does address
those realities. We talk about whether or not certain things should or should
not be criminalized. Yet the right seems to only be able to think in the
simplistic terms of enforce or not enforce, rather than address the core issue
of crafting the laws that are to be enforced.As Elder Marlin Jensen
put it a while back, it's futile to complain about broken laws when the laws
themselves are inherently "broken," i.e., inadequate.
First of all, as a non-member of the LDS faith, I am amazed that this individual
would be in a leadership position with the LDS church when they knew he was not
in the country legally. It was my understanding the LDS Church supports the law
of the land and emphasizes this to their congregations. Please correct me if I
am wrong on this. Second, to be in a leadership position would he not have had
to reveal this fact to those who interviewed him for this position? These
examples continue to emphasize the point that immigration must be done through
legal channels. If this had been done, this family would not be in this
situation. It is not right to complain about a situation you are in when you
created the problem in the first place. I feel for the family but this was a
gamble in the first place to come into this country illegally and think that all
I am impressed that the church is printing articles about this. I think the
publication of stories like this will open members eyes to the realities facing
families and individuals, including church leaders, because of our inadequate
immigration laws. Hopefully those capable of feeling sympathy and compassion
will realize our laws need to change, and these people need to be given a chance
to continue living here legally.
The LDS Church won't let have a man that is behind on his child support have a
temple recommend but will let an illegal alien be a Branch President. What is
wrong with this picture?Sorry but church leaders are wrong here as
they have an obligation to support the laws of the United States as this is
church doctrine. If the Stake President knew those people were illegal then
that Stake President needs to be released. As well as those General Authorities
that knew as well.Problem is that members of the church have become
too cowardly and will not raise their hands to oppose when they have an ethic
obligation to do so. If a bishop called Adolf Hitler to a calling you would
still have everybody raising their hands to sustain that calling. Sorry that's
I wonder if there is a statute of limitations? Seems like there is many more
serious crimes that do. Reforms must be made sooner than later
I have been following the story of the Carias's since 2006, and I feel like some
of the commenters may have jumped to some conclusions.In the April
13, 2006 Herald Journal article entitled "Deportation imminent", it
says, "Carias moved to Utah in the mid-1990s from Guatemala to help
his ailing father and to bring his family to better living conditions. In 1997,
he started the process of becoming a permanent, legal U.S. resident, but several
years of misfiled papers, an ill judge and an attorney who did nothing for
Carias 8 and was later disbarred resulted in Carias case file being
closed."From what I read in this article and what I know of the
Carias's personally, I feel they have done all in their power to obey the law. I
am sad to see that this story had a sad ending after all. I wish him and his
Come on now. Whether a law is good or bad is up to the courts to decide. As
individuals we may disagree with a law but it is still the law. You may feel
that a particular law is bad and I may feel that it is good... which one of us
is right? We can't, and must not, take the law into our own hands. Let the
lawmakers and the courts decide. If you don't like a law, get involved. Campaign
for something different. You don't have a moral or legal right to break the law
just because you don't like it.
Enforce the laws, and the problem is solved. Make excuses for not enforcing the
laws, and the problems continue. The Supreme court of this country
just gave states the right to enforce immigration laws in certain areas. Let's
become an honest and moral country again and start doing it. Situations like
this need to be stopped, and the only way for that to happen is for enforcement
and a call for honesty from those encouraging it. We have not seen
the nationwide call from the pro-illegal groups for people to stop immigrating
illegally, until that happens, and there is a deterrent for those tempted, the
problem will build. We can bury our heads in the sand, and hope the
Federal government will approve our illegal business orientated law that creates
a second class, or we can tackle the problem honestly.
Laws are good, it's the dishonest people that need reforming.
'Yapias said the deportation of law-abiding people is "devastating" to
families.'I imagine it would be devastating were they deporting
law-abiding people.If you repeat an untruth enough times it does not
become true but it becomes believed.I feel bad for the family, but I
have to ask, "What were you thinking?"
It's amazing how illegal immigrants can hold positions of leadership in the
church or even hold a temple recommend for that matter. i guess being honest in
all your dealings isn't relevant any longer
I read the Callejas-Hernandez article on another publication, then I found his
court of appeals documents from 2009 (available on the Internet). It
found that his attorney was not responsible for him missing his hearing. His
lawyer was found competent when it was discovered that Mr. Callejas-Hernandez
lost his notice of hearing.
Let this man alone. He is a credit to his Church and his community. As a
citizen of the United States I am happy to have him live in my neighborhood.
All of you that are heartless and say that he is a law breaker and should be
deported should ask yourself what you would do if you were in his circumstance.
I would hope that I would have the fortitude to follow his arduous path to the
U.S. so that I could better provide for my family. Unfortunately our
immigration system does not allow for him to legally immigrate.
He moved to the US - on a VISA? Temporary or medical or as a permanant resident?
In 1997, a year or two later he started paperwork? So 14 years after filing
papers that were not progressing his case there is now surprise about being told
to return? Certainly would have been easier on the kids to return in 06. Or
years earlier when it became apparant the paperwork wasn't moving along to the
family's desires. Another article on DN today talks about the
Entitlement Trap book.
I fear many will feel it is okay to fudge in other areas of church taught
principles if our leaders give a pass on being illegally in the country. Of
course we love the sinner, always, but cannot condone nor encourage the sin, or
in this case, the breaking of the law. Illegal immigration has been
acknowledged by church leaders as being unsustainable for US citizens over time.
I want mercy over justice, so I hope to be merciful to others, while
encouraging them to live justly, and striving to do so myself.
I find it unconscionable--definition--shocking to the conscious; unscrupulous;
outrageous that people think someone not keeping the law should be able to stay
because their family and friends will be upset when they are forcefully removed.
I am very sorry for these children!!! Sorry they had to witness
their father being removed. It is extremely sad the parents put the children in
the middle of such a tragic tale.Thank you enforcement agents for
doing your jobs!!! It must be difficult to hear the cries of all the people at
the scene and know you will be made to look like the ones doing wrong. I, like
many other citizens, am very glad you can keep your priorities straight. Again,
It so happens that my wife and I are also dealing with Byzantine U.S.
immigration laws. She's a white Canadian schoolteacher and we've been marrried a
year, and have just recently been approved by Homeland Security for the next
step -- waiting for permission to apply for a visa for her, which will take many
more months and beaucoup bucks beyond the extortionate fee we already paid for
the first application (more than 400 dollars, and it was rejected the first
time). Current immigration laws are very unjust -- they militate against
families -- including married couples like us -- being able to live together
within a reasonable length of time. For us, the process is likely to take a
couple of years and several thousand dollars, and in the meantime, she lives in
Newfoundland and I in PA. But unlike the people in this story and many others
like them, we have chosen to obey the laws, fair or not. That is the only option
for law-abiding LDS. The fact that so many ignore the laws and then complain
when they get caught and deported does not move me in the least.
"It was my understanding the LDS Church supports the law of the land and
emphasizes this to their congregations. "The optimist in me
says it's because illegal immigration is a complicated issue.The
pessimist in me says they are afraid of losing hispanic members knowing that it
is predominantly hispanic growth in central and south america that makes up the
majority of new baptisms.
Does the fact that they are deporting LDS teach us that they are in fact
breaking the law? As others have mentioned, teaching this generation that it is
OK to break the law, will have far reaching implications for the LDS church down
@Voice Great comment. I concur. This is an unfortunate example of allowing good
intention to interfere with policies of the LDS Church (See 21.1.16 of the
General Handbook). Let us not confuse the private risks of some with actions
being proscribed by the LDS Church. Experience has shown that those who emigrate
illegally often encounter challenges such as this, resulting in disappointment
and personal and family difficulties. It is painful for deportation of good men
and women to occur, just as it would be painful to see a bishop given a large
traffic ticket for speeding or placed in prison for giving unprescribed drugs to
an ailing widow in pain. These are two random examples, but they illustrate the
point that breaking the law has its cost--whether we think the law to be a good
one or not.
The line has to be drawn somewhere.
If you are a member of the LDS Church and uphold its leaders, I find it hard to
see how you could be so anti-immigrant when church leaders are preaching
compassion. If the church makes them lay leaders and grants them temple
recommends, how can you in good conscience rail against and seek instant
deportation? You church members who are so biased against your own brothers and
sisters in the Gospel should reconsider your views and determine if perhaps you
should moderate your thinking.
MormonDem suggests that the immigration laws are broken and not liberal enough
to meet our needs. I disagree.What is broken is our will to enforce the
law. The high numbers now preclude effective enforcement. Just a decade ago we
had 3-4 million illegal aliens. Now we have 12 million+. I repeat, the
political will is broken.We have never had a labor shortage in the last
decade. We've had a lose labor market, which keeps wages low. Why pay a
citizen $10/hour when someone will work in the underground market for $7?My church teaches obedience to the laws of the land and accepting the
consequences of our actions. Recent statements by the church PR department make
me wonder where I fit in.
We are all so incredibly, incredibly naive in this country. Have any of you
ever been to Central or South America? Do we have any idea what it is like?
Conditions there are exactly like those of pre-revolutionary France where the
general populace had to resort to crime just to survive. A handful of
aristocrats had the wealth of the entire country tied up and lived lavishly.
When told the people were starving and had no bread, Marie Antoinette reportedly
said, "Let them eat cake!" Is that how we feel? Instead of resting
on the breastworks while speaking lying and vain words, maybe we should get off
our lazy backsides and do something to help!
It's never a bad thing to uphold the law. And we have to stop all the
blubbering over people who chose to come here or remain in the U.S. illegally.
If I went to another country on a visa, say China, and then stayed beyond the
time I was legally allowed to remain in the country, I should not be surprised
when the Chinese later deport me.And the reason our country is not
as violent as Mexico is primarily because we have citizens who respect the law
and largely comply with it. Lawlessness and disrespect for seemingly lesser
laws drives contempt for law and ultimately lawlessness. This has been
repeatedly shown as fact. One small example is New York Cities drive a few
years ago to enforce the no squeegee or panhandling laws. New York has
substantially reduced ALL major crime categories by starting with the smallest
of laws.It is long-past time we enforced our immigration laws. Not
enforcing the laws simply causes more pain as evidenced by this story.
Re: The Deuce | 6:24 p.m. "I am amazed that this individual
would be in a leadership position with the LDS church when they knew he was not
in the country legally. It was my understanding the LDS Church supports the law
of the land and emphasizes this to their congregations."You are
right. And one of the questions in a temple recommend interview (mentioned by
another poster) is whether you are honest in all your dealings. My
understanding is that if you come into the country on a visa and attempt to
change it to permanent status, you must leave the country if your attempts are
unsuccessful. I don't know how a person reconciles "honest in all your
dealings" with being in the country illegally. Another poster
mentioned being married to a non-US citizen and going through the process to
allow his spouse to live here permanently. My wife and I did that as well, so I
also am not sympathetic to the view that some people should be absolved of the
responsibility to go through legally recognized channels to residency simply
because they have managed to avoid deportation for a long time.
One additional comment:If we need more guest workers, let's put more
reasonable guest worker laws on the books. It needn't leed to citizenship.
Just the right to live and work here if the individual and his/her family do not
commit any felonies or repeated misdomenors. But enforce the law that is on the
books in the meantime!
The Lord works in mysterious ways, his wonders to perform. Obviously, the Lord
has some higher design in mind for these Branch Presidents. They are needed back
in their home countries, so the Lord inspired immigration officials to locate
them and help them fulfill his will for them.I just love
faith-promoting articles in the Deseret News!
@ Jim L"The line has to be drawn somewhere."So will
God when it comes to you. I sure hope you are obeying EVERY law!
Count me among the lawbreakers.
The full article on the LDS Church's statement can be found as follows: It is
titled: "Immigration: LDS Church issues new statement." Published:
Saturday, June 11, 2011 12:00 a.m. MDT, By Scott Taylor, Deseret News.I agree wholeheartedly with the article and the brethrens' counsel to obey the
laws of the land -- no matter in which country we live.It's very sad
to see from some of the comments that the only exercise some of the commenters
are getting is by ..."jumping to conclusions,[and] "running down their
[brothers and sisters](since we are ALL children of God)... ."
hamburg said: "The LDS Church won't let have a man that is behind on his
child support have a temple recommend but will let an illegal alien be a Branch
President. What is wrong with this picture?"This shouldn't be a
difficult question for anyone. In my mind, a man who breaks a (poorly written)
law to provide for his family is morally in a much better position than a man
who is breaking the law because he is not providing for his family.carman: in your comment at 9:30 you said that we just needed to enforce the
law. Two minutes later you conceded that if more guest workers are needed we
should make it easier to get guest worker visas that do not lead to citizenship.
That is exactly what HB116 is intended to do. And that is exactly what the LDS
Church has advocated. And the Utah GOP wants to repeal it! Also,
it's rather amusing to see folks telling the brethren how to interpret the
"honesty" TR question while simultaneously testing the boundaries of
the "sustain the leaders of the Church" TR question by opposing the
Church's immigration policy.
In 1986, Ronald Reagan granted amnesty to 3 million illegal immigrants with the
provision that, from that point forward, any company caught hiring any more
illegal workers would be subject to big fines. 3 million people got amnesty,
but the other part of the deal was never enforced. I am not
anti-immigrant, as some have posted. I am anti-illegal immigration. Having
said that, I realize these people come here in desperation with a hope of a
tranquil life. There is no reason that it had to come to these men getting
deported. There is a better way to do this:1. Shut off
the flow - protect the boarder.2. Do a fast-track program to make these
people citizens. If they will pledge allegiance to the United States, I want
them here. If they won't, I don't.3. Take away any incentive to ever hire
illegally again.The politicians won't ever allow this issue to be
solved. It creates too many voting blocks for them...especially the liberals.
DeseretNews should explain a little more about what they were doing in order to
regulate their situation here. It looks like everybody thinks they were illegal
and the INS caught them and deport them. That is not the case. They came here
and apply for asylum which after some years was denied and therefore deported.
There is so many people in this case (like the hotel owners from India) who not
only tried to square with the law but were good productive people however, got
deported while there are so many others who do live in the shadows, abuse the
system and the INS do nothing about it. I believe that's why the
Church says INS laws should be reformed. And people should be less critical and
actually write to their representatives/senators to fix this problem for once
There are several reasons why their are lines for citizenship and residency. The
illegal immigration of 12-20 million people greatly affects our ability to allow
more legal people in to this country. We have allowed over one million people
each year (legally) that's more than any other industrial country by a large
margin. 440,000 is suppose to go to family members, over 700,000 went to family
members last year. Now people complain because it makes it difficult to come
here with out family. We cannot please everyone, or accept all that want to come
here, unless they stand in line and take their turn. Our immigration
laws were written in 1996. To many, no law will be fairly written unless they
can get their way. Coming here illegally and justifying it by saying it will
improve their lives is no different than justifying theft for the same reason.
It is against the law (misdemeanor) to come here illegally, and multiple
felonies to work here. Please. let's get back to teaching people personal
responsibility and honesty in the immigration issue. Otherwise more will be
deported. There is no statute of limitation for being here illegally.
Those who believe the immigration law is good haven't seen the reality of it.
The immigration laws as they stand encourage illegal immigration. The politicos
want illegals here to provide underpayed and even slave labor. Put a consolate
in each border town. Lower the cost of a visa. Publish what it takes to get
different kinds of visas to the US. Shorten the time it takes to get a visa
from 4+ years to 4 weeks. For those who have been here for several years
illegally, make it possible to apply and gain legal status if they otherwise are
law abiding good residents.
They were committing a crime just by being here illegally
The church isn't deporting them nor is the church printing these stories.
If I get a traffic ticket does that mean I am a crimainal? Entering this country
is not a crime. It can only rise to the level of a crime once someone has been
deported and than returns. These are real people. The vast majority are Good
people who have escaped devastating poverty, oppression and even death
threats.It is an ice cold person who is so blinded by a justice only attitude
that it allows them to ignore the cries of the children who are missing their
father and can find no way to live with him again. They see no reason for any
degree of mercy even in such a case where a family has been here for decades and
established themselves as a blessing and a benefit to the community. The
children who were brought her likely speak english better than spanish. Who
cares? Things are so bad now in Mexico, many Mexicans would be given refugee
status if only they were from somewhere other than Mexico.
The reality of the law is good if enforced. It's a dishonest mess if they are
not enforced. The only way to solve the problem is to enforce the laws and not
reward those who break them. With 9% unemployment any guest worker
pass is not looking at the reality of the economy, or looking for an honest long
term solution. They are just hoping the problem will go away. If
everyone was given amnesty tomorrow, would the pro-illegal groups stop telling
people to come here illegally? Of course not. We would just start another cycle
of illegal immigration and cries for amnesty.
At the beginning of the Iraq war a misguided 18 year old student from BYU
chained himself in protest over the war. He got himself arrested. He later
said; "that was the point."He also lost his opportunity to
serve a mission because "We believe in obeying, honoring and sustaining the
law."A young man that I know from Tonga was told by the church
that he had to return to Tonga or receive legal status before he could serve a
mission for the church. He left for his mission from Tonga, returned honorably
and still lives in Tonga.Why are illegal aliens allowed to be Branch
I wonder what the reaction would be if I had obtained my membership in the
Church or, better yet, a temple recommend through fraudulent means--coming in
the back door, so to speak. How would Church leaders feel if I had acquired
garments and was wearing them because of that phoney recommend?There's safety in standing on the side of "doing what's right,"
rather than doing what's politically expedient.Further, what does
their being branch presidents have to do with anything? Would this not mean as
much if the two men were sunday school teachers?
I feel that many do not understand the message contained in a number of the
posts to this topic. We all feel for the need of the individual. Many however,
also respect the law. As some have suggested, if things need to be changed then
each of us can become part of the solution and not part of the problem. Our
responsibility is to honor and obey the laws we have. If they need to be
changed, we have the mechanism to do this in this country. We simply cannot
decide to not honor a law simply because we don't think it is good. We do have
the opportunity to change said laws through legal means. Simply having a good
excuse for breaking a law does not make it right. Otherwise, I have a list of
very good excuses for breaking a number of laws as I am sure others do as well.
When things are done right the first time, there is no need to do them over. I
am still interested in the LDS Church's comments about this situation and how
these individuals were put into leadership positions.
I'm sure there is more to this story than we really know about. It saddens me to
see good families separated. Maybe the families weren't being as honest as they
should be and they were living in constant fear that this day would come. Being
a foreigner they may not have understood what exactly happened with their
legalization status. If I were in a foreign country I would totally be clueless
to many of their laws and procedures. It really isn't my place to judge them.
I'm just a little confused to the priorities of ICE.
I'm guessing that if a person has friendship with an illegal, they are going to
have empathy for others caught in this immigration issue. If, however, one sees
them only as the masses that clean hotel rooms, mow their neighbor's lawn and
speak poorly over the fast food intercom, then they are likely to be seen in the
same way as the outcast Samaritans of Christ's time. I feel that many of us
would broken the same immigration laws as those who have recently come to the
"Land of Opportunity" to seek economic freedom and a better life for
If we truly feel for the need of the individual we should see the big picture. A
balanced solution that requires penalities for those who have come here
illegally is reasonable and doesn't always have to include deportation. The
entire immigration problem was created because we did not secure the borders. As
a result we have immigrants here as well as there children and grandchilren
raised here who have never been to Mexico. What laws did these kids break?We also took away the option that allowed immigrants to come here legally for
a certain set time period when the Brazero guest worker program ended years ago.
It is extremely difficult, if not impossible for a poor Mexican immigrant to
come here legally. Attorney General Shurtleff has a program set up were Mexican
workers can come here legally to work in industries where they are needed.The
present system not only exploits Mexican workers but endangers our national
Laws do not cover every variable. We must reason in good conscience and not
blindly follow any law. We make the best intelligent decision possible. Sorry
folks, but I do not blame the church for anything in this matter.
1. Each month thousands of immigrants proudly become U.S. citizens and pledge
the Oath of Allegiance at the courthouse. That means that they followed an
existing path to U.S. citizenship. The process usually involves going from a
green-card holder or permanent resident to a U.S. citizen. Immigration is not
broken for them. The ones complaining are usually the ones not playing by the
rules.2. Applying to renew a driver's license using an illicit/false
social security number is not right, regardless of citizenship. Anyone caught
doing that should be legally punished or deported.3. There is no way
to allow everyone to come into the U.S.A. without meeting certain requirements
or immigration would become unsustainable.4. Finally, if a person is
breaking the law, using someone else's social security number or violating a law
he cannot make restitution for, pay a fine to make it right and he's violating
it 24/7, he should not hold Priesthood positions in the Church. That creates an
inexcusable double-standard.5. Persons engaged in illegal immigration or
job-related felonies violate the 12th Article of Faith.6. Illegal
immigrants cannot make restitution without returning home.
Sigh. This is a travesty and my heart goes out to the families, church
congregations and communities who suffer the loss of these good folks. I
realize that the mean-spirited commentators on this post represent a minority,
even in Utah, but I wish your numbers were even fewer. By and large, illegal
immigration renders more benefits than costs, although it is a convenient
scapegoat for societal ills and seems to give voice to bullies. Put those who
advocate law and enforcement without compassion in the shoes of the illegals for
six months and positions would no doubt change.
ICE's job is deport people that are here illegally. They had their day in court,
they were not given residency, and their appeals were denied. What they did was
against the law. We are just like every other country, we try to protect our
borders and decide who comes here legally. The pro-illegal folks
want amnesty, and continue to encourage people to come here illegally. Stopping
their recruitment should be our first priority. Nothing should be done until new
arrivals are stopped and the pro-illegal folks forced to stop openly defying our
laws. We already have visas for when we need them. We don't need a
lower class guest worker program that makes Utah look like the old south.
"This case reminds us all of the need to address immigration reform.,"
said Scott Trotter of the LDS Church's Public Affairs Office.What
Scott Trotter ought to be saying is, "This reminds us all of the need to
obey, honor, and sustain the law." What's more, in NO WAY were
the principles -- "The commandment to 'Love thy neighbor;' the importance
of keeping families intact; and the federal governments obligation to secure its
border," violated in the handling of these people's cases, as far as I can
tell. So what then is Trotter's point, exactly, in mentioning these
three principles? Is he subtly attempting to lead us to believe that to
"love thy neighbor" is to endorse and continually turn a blind eye to
illegal activity?If that is Trotter's true motivation, then he is
WRONG. I don't care if he IS speaking for the Church.They really
need their dad," Carias said.His family is free to follow him
to his lawful country of residence. Problem solved! Incidentally, MANY fathers
leave their families behind in their HOME countries, in the process of coming
into this country illegally. Do not these families also need their fathers?
"That means they will have to leave the United States for an uncertain
future in country that is unfamiliar to them."Undoubtedly they
already all speak Spanish. Therefore, moving to Guatemala will be very similar
to what many Americans experience when they relocate to another state, for
example. Typically it is an exciting adventure -- and hardly a tragedy. They
now will be able to make wonderful contributions in their communities and to the
Church -- in their own country."To pull him away from his
family and his community is senseless, she said."It is not
senseless. He was was living in constant violation of the law. Here again we
see the evidence of an inferior value system, one which does not truly
appreciate the significance of the rule of law and its role in preserving
religious freedom."He's really a leader." The
fact is that he was a bad example of good citizenship. This was the
system working correctly, AND compassionately and lovingly to EVERYONE.
Joy, 11:45, I totally don't see how you think ICE has its priorities mixed
up.The laws have been on the books for years. The deported people knew they were
breaking the laws--they had been to hearings, had lawyers, etc. The
paper is full of excuses when someone is in court for breaking the law.I really do feel sad for these children. First of all the parents ignore the
residency laws and then the parents allow the children there to see the father
cuffed. To me a reasonable person, in this case the not-cuffed mother, would
have had the oldest child lead the other children from the room. No eight year
old child needs to see a cuffed parent. She complains they saw their
father like a robber...and she helped make that possible for them.
I'm surprised how callous most of these comments are. These people broke the
law to have the privilege to work and provide for their families, a law that had
rarely been enforced and therefore assumed not in effect (if you do any legal
research you'll see there are hundreds of laws on the books that are not
enforced). Sure, secure the borders now, but don't ruin the lives of
law-abiding upstanding citizens by sending back to their countries. It's
important to consider the motive in any crime committed. The motive here is
nothing more than to get a job and provide for a family. I'm sure you wouldn't
prosecute a pregnant mother in labor speeding to get to the hospital even though
she'd actually be putting more lives at risk than these illegal immigrants, who
are supporting the country.I am also amazed at the number of posters
here who decide when and when not to agree with the church. I'm sure these are
the same who were critical of those who didn't agree with the church's position
on gay marriage. A bunch of hypocrites if you ask me.
I too believe there is more to the story, but that those facts don't fit the
framework of the story to sell the point of the article.Bloom where
you are planted. Build the kingdom where you live. Obey the laws, while
working to change them. Having compassion for one family or
individual situation is one thing, but taking compassion on a wave of millions
who are not motivated for the same reasons is foolishness. Being compassionate
and seeking to assist or soften or lighten burdens of the first case are fine,
but showing compassion to the masses so as to subvert the law is not in the
nation's interests, or in the interest of those taking part in the illegal
crossing of borders and seeking entitlements our society has wrought.Finally, I am sorry, "the kids need their dad" doesn't wash with me.
I have been deployed continuously overseas without my seeing my kids but once a
year, for several years and whining about it isn't going to get me the permanent
position I want at home. Nice try, but the attempted human tweak fails.
I can't help feeling that there is an implied condescension in the double legal
standard we seem to embrace with Hispanics versus non-Hispanics. I think most of
us would take for granted that a white, Anglo would-be immigrant like my
Canadian wife, because we assume that Canadians, Germans,and northern Europeans
generally come from cultures of law and order. I doubt that anyone from such a
background caught living and working illegally in the U.S. would be extended
such compassion, because, after all, "they should know better." With
Hispanics, on the other hand, there is this notion that they are poorer, less
law-abiding, and perhaps less accountable for their actions and circumstances.
The truth, however, is that there are a number of well-ordered societies in
Latin America, such as Costa Rica and Chile, whose citizens aren't flooding into
our country illegally. And there are many millions of ordinary law-abiding
Mexicans, including many LDS, who see no need to flout our laws. Oh,
and don't look for the immigration laws, unjust as they are, to change anytime
soon -- at least until the anti-terrorism paranoia subsides.
Ephesians 2:19: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but
fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;" Oh wait --
not you. You're Mexican! Not you! You're Guatemalan! "When saw we thee
a stranger...?" Study the history of immigration laws in the U.S. The
first was in 1875; hence, many of your ancestors just walked off the boat or
across the border (the Indians should have been more careful!). Immigration
laws have been used to bar certain nationalities or ethnicities when they were
unpopular. At present, it is almost impossible to immigrate legally from Mexico
or several other Latin American countries. Immigration law is not sacrosanct!
It has been very fluid over the past 100 years; it's changed before, and it can
change again. People like these branch presidents will have a chance to bless
their families and our country. We need sensible voters and sensible legislators
who can work out sensible solutions.
"Latino community activist Tony Yapias said it was his understanding that
Callejas-Hernandez . . . had not committed any crimes."Not
knowing either family, I still must ask a few questions:1) Did
either have employment to support there families?2) If so, did they use a
legal tax identification number to pay taxes?3) Did they file tax
returns?If not, are they law abiding or are these
"crimes". I know of a couple people via the Deseret News that have
gone to jail for failing to pay taxes or file proper tax returns.Likewise, does their employer face any penalties or fines?
Why do so many blame the Church for someone who decides in their own mind if
they are telling the truth? If someone is asked a question and they give an
answer, who's fault is it if they are wrong? When the Church asks a person if
they are living the commandments and they answer that they are, is it the fault
of the Church? When you lie to a potential employer about your skills, do we
blame the employer?Get real people! Put the blame where it belongs....on
the individual. I do believe that we should be concentrating on the bad guys who
are here illegally and spend our money on getting them the heck out of here.
There were several wards split into branches, in Provo, several years ago.
According to my husband, bishops have to be legal resident for some reason and
branch presidents do not. I know at least one former branch president who was
not legal. Nowadays I think to be a missionary you have to be legal. Back in
my day it made no difference. I came to this country legally 23 years ago and
let me tell you it was not easy. My mother is 70 and was denied a visa twice,
both her children are american citizens! I doubt she will be able to come back
and visit again.
Aren't those who harbor criminals are guilty as well?
Families being separated is a bogus argument. Those illegals know that at any
time they could be deported but they choose to have a family and that is no
different than somebody committing a crime and going to jail and being separated
from their families. Those people who who make that argument do not want people
to be responsible for their actions and want to justify their bad behaviors.
I really enjoy reading what these self-righteous religious people are saying
about the LDS Church, many who themselves believe they are the "chosen
people" in the LDS Church. It is time for us to be more Christlike and
love one another instead of feeling better when another person is down.
Many illegal immigrants do the equivalent of 5 miles over the speed limit as
they know it is winked at. Those who then become more prominent by doing good
things such as coaching soccer teams and serving in leadership positions do put
themselves at risk of being noticed and deported. The incentives are
interesting hear. Keep a low profile and you will probably escape deportation.
Raise that profile and you will probably put yourself at risk. Seems to me that
the process is broken. I applaud the legislators of Utah for dealing with this
issue straight on. One may disagree with the outcomes but at least there is a
somewhat courageous attempt to deal with the issue. I wish our federal
government representatives had the same courage.
But, Senate Republicans won't allow the immigration reform bill to be voted
REFORM is needed. the immmigration law DOESN'T work, we know that already, there
is no way to send more than 40 millions of illegal alien to their countries, we
need to secure the border, send those with criminal record and help each other,
can you imagine how much money can we make out of this, with reform, we will
know who are they and where, they will pay taxes, buy houses and car with their
own documents and help our economy, just an idea...if they want to become
residents, pay for it. $5,000 each...on 20 or 40 million people!If you are
worried about people from the south border selling drugs, we should stop buying
them, is that simple.We can help each other and see the benefits of it.My wife and I were separated from our family 2 years ago, laws in the States
didn't help us at all to stay there, our family member are Citizens and
Residents, but in order to become residents the process takes at least 10
YEARS, we moved to canada and applied for residence here, laws works a lot
better here, sad but true!
@ B: Brilliant idea, and by far the best solution to this illegal immigration
mess we're in. Wish you were running for office, bro! Ooops, don't even know
if you're a he or she! Sad story nevertheless! There's no joy in seeing or
hearing about anyone going through this kind of pain. Hope they can recover and
come out better from this sad experience.
I don't understand the xenophobia and hypocritical hatred expressed in so many
of these comments. Practically all of our recent ancestors were immigrants to
this area. Hardly any of our ancestors registered with the existing governments
of the land when they arrived (ie neither my ancestors from Britain in the
1600's nor my ancestors entering Utah [Mexico] in the 1850's). Our US
immigration laws were not so anti-immigrant until very recent times.Our current racist quotas got their start with anti-Chinese California
congressmen who whipped up dishonest and unjust anti-Chinese fervor in the late
1880s and 90s to demand limits on how many were allowed to seek a better life in
the "land of the free" from China per year. This proved such a
popular campaign issue that the Feds started passsing all sorts of needless and
arbitrary limits on unpopular Italians, Irish, Jews, etc.I find the
story about the "Rameumptom" Zarahemla-ites to be remarkably similar
to our current situation. Somehow they felt that only those born where they
were and already successful deserved God's blessings. Alma had some hard words
for that attitude . . . Please reconsider those views.
Business owners could have lend a hand by way of a job offering, not easy to do,
but doable. This was a hard working man, trying to provide for his family. There
is a need to improve communication between ecclesiastical leaders and the
community at large. Other congregations would set up committess, and offer legal
assistance to their flocks, but no one is willing to break barriers among the
LDS leaders throughout the church. Hope is not too late for his family to
reclaim their dad legally.
Thou shalt not judge!!! Are these not famous words within???
Illegal immigrants. They are here to take your jobs . . . and your church
"This case reminds us all of the need to address immigration reform,"
said Scott Trotter, senior media relations manager for The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints, in a statement. "As we have stated, we believe
any solution should include the following three principles: The commandment to
'Love thy neighbor;' the importance of keeping families intact; and the federal
governments obligation to secure its border."The LDS church
should have no opinion on immigration. It is a religious entity and therefore
should stick to religious proselytizing. As stated many times, the person
should not have been allowed to remain in a leadership position when/if they
became law breakers. The person should have notified the proper authorities
within the church and anyone possessing this information should have reported
it. Were he to break any other federal law he would have been removed
Janet,It is not "almost impossible" to immigrate from Mexico or
Latin America. My souse from Mexico was just naturalized. We did the paperwork,
went through the process, paid our fees, went to the appointments, and obtained
residency and then citizenship. Many immigrants are successfully naturaliuzed
every month. They usually do it at the Gallivan Center in Salt Lake once a
month. Why should these people be permitted to bypass the process these legal
immigrants go through? Just because the border of their country is closer to us
I'm glad that something is being done. I don't feel bad for these people
because they have come here illegally. If you break the law, you must be ready
to suffer the consequences. Not even LDS people are above the law, despite what
the leaders of the LDS church think.
So, please, reconcile for me if you will the claim that those who oppose 116 do
so only because they want to 'honor, sustain, and uphold the law'. Is 116 not a
law? Did the slightly older laws that these respondents seem to prefer not
contradict the established order of things when those laws were passed?The fact remains that HB116 helps promote an improved process and situation
than the inadequate and severely flawed recent situation. I find this law to be
quite praiseworthy and I'm going to vote to have this particular law upheld when
I attend the GOP convention this Saturday and have a chance to voice my opinion
in a non-binding but highly watched opinion poll (resolution vote).I'm glad my ancestors got here before so many Americans started buying the
elitist, racist, "zero population" arguments. I pray that we might
rectify some of the current xenophobia and unjust pride that is starting to set
Yapias said the deportation of law-abiding people is "devastating" to
families.if they are here illegally, they are NOT law-abiding.
PERIOD. Its double-speak at it's finest - and right up there with Bill
Clinton's "It depends on what the definition of "is" is"...
hamburg said: "The LDS Church won't let have a man that is behind on his
child support have a temple recommend but will let an illegal alien be a Branch
President. What is wrong with this picture?"mormondem replied:
This shouldn't be a difficult question for anyone. In my mind, a man who breaks
a (poorly written) law to provide for his family is morally in a much better
position than a man who is breaking the law because he is not providing for his
family.Actually a large chunk of the estimated 12-18 million
illegals here are not providing for their families. The taxpayers of this
country are through entitlement programs. We are providing health care, food,
and money so they can live here illegally and it has really taxed the system.
Regardless of what you say the laws are not poorly written...they are just
poorly enforced.Personally I am dissappointed the First Presidency
is allowing people who intentionally break the law to receive a TR....it
cheapens the one in my pocket.
I don't think that loving they neighbor and deporting someone for being here
illegally are at odds. How about loving ALL our neighbors and respecting their
rights to want everyone here to obey the law.
I will repeat what has been said here earlier: it is almost impossible for the
average person to legally immigrate from Latin America. Even those who are
married to U.S. citizens (like "unaffiliated person" above) may run
into serious problems, although generally they have a much easier time
immigrating legally. It's especially difficult for those looking for
landscaping, restaurant, or housecleaning jobs to immigrate legally.Every illegal immigrant I have known (and I know most of them through church)
works hard here in the U.S. Every illegal immigrant I know is a good person,
what Jesus would call a Good Samaritan.Another poster stated that
missionaries cannot be illegal immigrants. That is false; the LDS church
knowingly sends out illegal immigrants within the United States. One of these
was arrested by ICE in Cincinnati a few years ago as he was heading home,
following an honorable LDS mission. Apparently the church doesn't put much
stock in poor immigration laws, and realizes that people are more important than
What happened to obeying and sustaining the law??? when these men were
interviewed for the calling were they not asked their legal status??? Where is
the vetting???? what happened to the priesthood authority who let this
happen??? More black eyes for the church
You can still love your neighbor while deporting him for being in the country
illegally. Loving your neighbor doesn't include condoning breaking the law.
Tony Yapias stating the dude from Draper didn't break any laws is a big load of
dung. He was here illegally. If now laws were broken, when then was he
deported? I have no sympathy for them. Let them come legally, and I have no
problem, at all.
It is very hard for me to imagine why good families are deported while those who
commit crimes are frequently harbored and remain. I guess it is easier for ICE
to round up those who actually have decent resume's. Immigration reform has been
kicked down the road too long. As long as we have this deadlock between the
President and Congress, it won't be resolved anytime soon.
A better system, is for people to enter this country legally. Send them home
and then have them apply for citizenship.Why is it, everytime people
make poor choices, the people of the US have to pick up their slack?They'll never learn until they're allowed to fail. They lived off of our
system. Now they can go back to their native lands and improve their country and
it doesnt matter what you do for a living here in the U.S or what religous
organization you belong to. it doesnt matter if you coach football or baseball
or tap dancing if you are here illegally and with a expired Vise you have
committed a crime just what part of ILLEGAL is it people dont understand ? I was
born in France and became a citizen so I know what they have to go through to
get it done. and its just a case of them not wanting to take the effort to do
it. well then in that case they should expect whats coming. do I support illegal
immigration ? ---NO ! I took the time to make it legal they can to
I am so disappointed in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Did
the leaders not learn during the Polygamy days that it was an obligation to obey
the laws of the land? Did that declaration not come from a prophet? (My
recollection of the history may be inaccurate.)What is the church doing
now? Allowing illegal aliens to become church leaders (examples to others) and
allowing them to have temple recommends. The people who are here
illegally, chose to come here, they weren't forced. They knew they were breaking
the law and they knew the consequences. The church is guilty of harboring
illegals - a felony- as is anyone who knows that someone is here illegally.
Anyone ever hear of aiding and abetting? I guess, since the church has sanctuary
status, it doesn't matter. But it does matter to people who live next door to
them or hire their children as babysitters or give work to them or even give
them a ride to school. I believe it's a five year jail sentence. Think about it.
One day,Our immigration laws are just fine thank you very much. No
laws work if no one enforces them. Traffic laws don't work without police to
insure compliance.And YES WE CAN expel millions of illegals, it has been done by
three Presidents. We don't lack the ability, we lack the will. When a lot of
people break the law you don't just throw your hands up and make deals with
those breaking it, you do something about it. Illegals are destroying the state
and nation, looting our treasuries and taking jobs away from Americans and
shipping billions of dollars out of the country in the process. Do you really
think this isn't affecting the country in a big way? The last thing we need is
people like you out there waving the white flag while our nation is being
overrun with illegals.
@Coleman51, Lawbreaking illegals are deported all the time. You are reading a
press that seems to only be reporting about "good" LDS church leaders
who are deported. I don't think the INS is out to get good,
"law-abiding" illegals. When it comes to their attention that someone
is here illegally, they act on it. I don't know if someone is reporting LDS
leaders -- I am surprised to not be reading that paranoid take in some of the
comments .. YET.
Response to "Carman in Alpine Utah"You say the reason that our
country is not as violent as in Mexico is because our citizens generally comply
with the law. I agree with that. "Our citizens". You need to come to
Southern Arizona and sleep out in the desert for a few nights and see the
violence. Oh wait, in our beautiful Southern Arizona desert the Federal
Government has posted signs stating how dangerous and life threatening it is
just to be in the area! Violence from "non-citizens" HAS spilled over
into America, not just spilled over but is flooding!
To West Granger: The father was deported to Guatemala, not Mexico.
It is a sad story, but bottom line, we need to obey the laws, it doesn't matter,
you are the bishop or not.I am a LDS and I am a legal immigrant.
To Honor Code in Denver:You quote Thou Shalt Not Judge. You need to read
Elder Dallin Oaks talk he gave a few years ago entitled Judge Not and Judging,
given at BYU on March 1, 1998. I think you might change your comments after
reading if you do believe in modern day Apostles.
As a Bishop, I'm concerned we are calling illegal aliens to church callings at
all. My respectful opinion is they have broken the law.
I would like to know how the ICE people can find these good people, who
contribute to our community and support themselves, and not be able to locate
and deport the 1300 that we know are here and living on welfare. Who
were exposed by some really courageous whistle-blowers who were themselves
punished for exposing the idiotic decisions of the state. What kind of
people are we becoming? We let employers underpay illegals who then live on the
welfare system forcing legals citizens to support them. And in the process
putting legal citizens out of work. Then we toss out those who are
skilled and support themselves- Supporting the repeal of HB116 is
beginning to look better and better.
I have read several of these stories from Utah, Texas and Arizona where
Priesthood holders who were Bishops or Stake authority holders were deported. I
hold that every one needs to try to do the best for their families and this is
an instruction from God. My faith is shaken when I realize that men who do not
follow the instruction to "abide by the laws of the country" are
allowed to hold offices that matter. I have prayed and the answer I get is"
Men in authority who allow this are condone this are making worldly decisions
not spiritual ones". Yes Family is a basic concern and must remain together
and the Women who chooses to marry a person here illegally or the Man who makes
this chose should also leave the country and keep their family together. They
will either live there are find a way to legally return but they do not need the
government or church to do what they should have done lawfully the first time.
Their example to our young people is it is ok to cheat, break the law as long as
you do it for yourself is just WRONG.
Oh goodness, I have SO much to say on this topic... I am married to an
immigrant... we did everything legally and his papers are in order. Thank
goodness! However, it is a nerve-wracking and confusing process. In attempts to
get correct information about filing paperwork at each stage of the process, I
called the immigration hotline. I asked them what forms I would need to file. I
wrote down what they told me and pulled up the forms on the USCIS website. After
going through the forms, some of them did not apply to my situation AT ALL. I
called four times, each person gave different form numbers for the same
situation... I took the most common ones mentioned, filed those and crossed my
fingers! Luckily, it worked! But if I had only filed what the first person told
me, we could've been in trouble! If you are immigrating, get legal assistance...
there are also websites with tips from other immigrants... the USCIS hotline
can mess you up.If you've never dealt with the USCIS, have a little
compassion! People come from other countries seeking hope and stability and get
stuck in fine print and misinformation.
Witness the efficiency of the federal government: They COULD take a bus to the
parking lot of the mexican food markets and fill it in about 20 minutes with 60
or so illegal trespassers. Instead, they spend countless hours and $$$ on this
guy.Oh, and while they're at the market, they might want to see how
many trespassers they can find with 3 sets of i.d. Please don't accept their
explanation that they "found them" or they "belong to their
cousin". Also, the dvd's with the titles written by hand in magic marker
probably ARE pirated.I have a STRONG feeling this was a publicity
stunt on the part of the feds to elicit compassion (and excuse them for not
doing their job).Either that, or ICE is under orders to deport ALL
potential Republicans and leave the welfare and food stamp recipients alone.
@flowerz, Perhaps the hard work in being here legally is worth the reward. By
the way, people who have experience getting here legally should consider lookig
into volunteering with agencies to help others do the same thing.
@unaffiliated person: I have tried to help undocumented immigrants; I have
contacted immigration lawyers and other experts. I have been told that a person
who is already here has no recourse, that s/he will have to wait two years after
leaving the U.S. to apply, and that the process could take 10 years -- if it
even works then. It is also very expensive. One of my students had an aunt and
uncle who spent $40,000 and many years getting legal status. My student has
been unable to do so. The necessity of taking oneself out of the shadows in
order to begin the process puts one on the ICE radar and can end very quickly in
deportation. Bro D.: Seriously? "disappointed in the First
Presidency"? Isn't there a TR question about sustaining the General
Authorities? There is a very strong undercurrent of selfishness and xenophobia
in many of the DN posts on immigration issues. It isn't my place to judge you,
@JBrady"We don't need a lower class guest worker program that makes
Utah look like the old south."Oh my, I think this says it all. So
many underlying messages here that characterize all of you "Shylocks"
who demand a pound of flesh and are so thrilled when these and other families
are deported, to answer the ends of the law. You are also very brazen, hiding
behind your online personae, in criticizing the counsel and actions of your
church leaders. You are also the same who were so critical of our brethren on
the left when they revolted against the church's stand on Prop. 8. You can
wonder, you can have an opinion, but in the end, you can't have it both ways. No
matter what your political feelings, you must follow the prophet. You can't
require him to conform to your politics to gain your allegiance and
discipleship. If that seems repugnant or silly to you, then perhaps you need to
reconsider your church membership (I'm sure some of you already are...if so,
don't let the door hit you on your way out!)
I wonder those marrying and trying to get citizenship for spouse from Canada or
somewhere south how hard is it for a US citizen to be able to get citizenship
there? Why not move to the spouse's nation? That is an option. Obviously the US
or other nation allowed you to be together in the same place long enough to fall
in love make a marriage committement.As for the "to suddenly
deport" comment. What part of these stories was sudden? If there were
sudden deportation most the children born and raised here wouldn't have been
born or raised here to be returned to the parent's homeland. The
reason the 70 year old mom is denied a VISA to come here temporarily is because
there is no ties to make her inclined to go back. Too many don't. That is the
problem with why quotoas are not updated and temp VISA's not issued from certain
places. Too high a rate not returning.Everyone can't live here. If all the good people from those places come here where is the hope
that those places will change?
The "Recommend" buttons are nice.Can we please have a
"Condemn" button.Some pro-immigration, anti-law folks here have
said some pretty stupid things.I find it particularly offensive that
some blame opposition to this insane mess they created on racism.Illegal aliens are murdering our people, driving up government costs, taking
jobs that Americans could and should hold, and they blame our opposition to this
on racism. It has nothing to do with racism. It has everything to do with real
problems.America is a nation.All nations have borders.Those who don't like borders would destroy our nation.What is a nation
without borders?Would you buy a lot and build a house on it if there
were no property lines?Do property lines mean anything if you cannot
control who has access to your property?Do borders of a nation mean
anything if you can't (or will not) control who crosses those borders?A nation without borders is no nation at all.That is after all
what the liberals want.
Also, I don't understand why people are blaming the LDS church for this. The
church does not investigate people's legal status here... duh! What church does?
Most US citizens are uninformed about the legal process. So, first of all, they
don't get caught up in people's legal status here. Second, if they did, how
would it go: "So, Brother,/Sister how is your residency paperwork coming
along?" "Oh, we filed it and are waiting for a response."
"Ok, good luck." or maybe "Well, there were some issues with our
paperwork, but we are working on it." I really don't understand what people
expect the church to do? Get involved in the legal affairs of its members? That
could be bad. Maybe this guy really believed that eventually it would work out
and said everything was fine. Maybe he was delusional about the whole thing. But
the church, to my knowledge, allows the members to be responsible for their
dealings with the laws of the land.
I don't know how illegal aliens can work in this country without breaking some
serious laws. Just being here to work and improve the plight of ones family is
very admirable, and I think we should make it easier to do it lawfully. But how
can you work without a social security number. And if they obtained one
illegally that is a serious crime. The reasons are many as to why we can't
achieve reform. Not the least is that we have created a slave class which is
too often paid less than market and even less than minimum wage because the
employers know the illegals have no recourse. That is why thy do jobs citizens
Have any of you LDS people read carefully the Church's recent Official
Statements on the question of immigration?They emphasize:1)
Federal Government should fix the problem, and enforcement is their
responsibility and duty.2) Immigration status alone should not be the sole
criteria in denying a temple recommend or extending a calling. Priesthood
leaders should use their best judgement in all these situations. --Hopefully
the leaders doing the interviews will ask LOTS of questions, like, "are you
using someone else's SSN or have you falsely acquired any US ID documents?"
In these cases, it is NOT solely their immigration status, and Recommends and
callings should be denied them.3) All decisions regarding immigration /
deportation should be in keeping with the concepts of compassion and love, and
family unity should be considered.4) Mambers of the Church should refrain
from judgementalism.It is #4 to which I would like to draw your
attention. Debating the issues is cool. Decrying any individual's situation
without knowing ALL facts in the case is judging unrighteously. Criticizing
your leaders for doing their callings to the best of their ability is treading
on unsteady ground.
Those of you extolling the quality of our existing immigration laws, while
self-righteously condemning those who violate them for the good of their
families, need to do a little more homework. And those of you claiming to have
experienced these laws (coming from Canada), and patting yourselves on the back
for "doing it right," are making a false comparison. Being poor and
desperate and speaking a different language, while confronting ICE, is a totally
different experience. I know. I have worked tirelessly helping a few Latin
Americans get here (and we did it legally). The system is a bureaucratic, unjust
nightmare...an embarrassment to our country. Even though we did it legally, I
still have abundant empathy and mercy for those who sink in the quicksand that
is our immigration system. We need to be fighting for reform, as well as
enforcement. What the church advocates for is a good balance of justice and
mercy...a commonsense, mature approach that recognizes reality, not some
"black and white," my-way-or-the-highway fantasy.
Rock,With the exception of your very last sentence, I agree with
you.Preserve our nation by preserving our borders and enforcing
@Ms MolliYou are correct, it does feel good when you know your
papaers are in order! Whenever we have friends who have a similar immigration
process, we always offer to help and have helped quite a few. but to
anyone needing help, google "immigration help" it's there!
I understand the premise; but what I don't understand is why they are seeking
those who are living good, beneficial lives and are self-supporting. How about
working on the deportment of those who are in gangs, dealing drugs, thieving, or
those who drain our Medicaid system, etc.? I have to wonder if it isn't a
numbers game...perhaps it's not so easy to find and deport the illegal
immigrants who are DOING illegal things. After all, they "deserve"
access to the judicial system first, tying up American dollars and time, right?
So is ICE compensating by finding the "easy" ones.And I'm
not saying that it's only illegals who are involved in such things, but
certainly that's where the work should begin if they truly want to start
In every spanish-speaking ward (every ward, for that matter) surely there are
worthy members who are here legally. Can't the stake presidents chose them for
leadership? This isn't discrimination, this is common sense. What an
embarrassment for the church to have it announced all over the world that a
certain local church leader has been deported! Deported! That sounds so bad!
We have enough problems with the public image of the church as it stands without
creating more.Before a Stake Presidency and a High Council review
the names of possible individuals for a ward or branch calling they always
consider whether the individuals are worthy, qualified and eligible. Can't we
find people who are worthy, qualified and eligible who are here legally?The church may not issue a directive to this effect, because it would be
feeding the flames, but certainly Stake Presidents could figure it out, or it
could get that fuzzy implicit endorsement from "The Brethren" that is
sometimes needed to get things going in the right direction without an official
This unfortunate story reminds me of another crime that really ticks me off:
texting while driving. I don't care if illegal texters otherwise
are not driving recklessly or causing an accident. It's obvious to me that since
some illegal texters cause accidents, we must impose the same penalty on ALL
illegal texters. I'm furious that the state profers 'amnesty' on these
criminals by only fining them for their illegal behavior. I insist that we ban
them for life from driving AND using cell phones. If anyone puts up
some silly idea like let the punishment fit the crime and only reserving
significant punishment for illegal texters who actual cause problems while
allowing a lesser punishment for the others, I will insist on calling them
pro-texting, anti-law, amnesty-loving liberals.
@USALover"As a Bishop, I'm concerned we are calling illegal aliens to
church callings at all. My respectful opinion is they have broken the
law."I'm fine with you having such a concern. I'm guessing we all
have them at times. However, my concern is that you identify yourself, from
behind your firewall, as a bishop while questioning the church's practices. I
recommend you take it up with church authorities, through channels, not with
online dialog in a public forum. In fact, why don't you call Pres. Monson, give
him your name and the name of the congregation over which you preside, and ask
him for an opportunity to discuss this issue with him. I'll bet he'll get right
on the phone with brother Jensen and instruct him to change the church's stance
and message...once you have a chance to talk some sense into him. Maybe then he
and the brethren will address this issue with more prayer and pondering...
The words "compassion" and "charity" are thrown around quite
freely by those who embrace amnesty.May I suggest that charity is GIVEN,
not confiscated.Take a look at Alma 27:21 for an example of how it is
given in a public policy setting.Marching in the streets and demanding to
be legalized are surely not in the spirit of charity.I am proud of our
nation for accepting refugees over the years. The people have elected leaders
and parameters are set. Surely the demand it greater than our capacity for
intake.But I cannot abide those who come here uninvited and expect to be
accommodated. Don't judge me as lacking charity for turning such people away.
"Can't the stake presidents chose them for leadership?"Hate to break it to you, but not every ward is full of leadership material.
Sometimes there are a very limited number of people in a ward who are prepared
to be religious leaders. I've lived in such wards myself. I have family that
attends a Spanish-speaking branch in Utah, and they are always looking for good
leadership material. Immigration status isn't nearly as important when seeking
a leader as many, many other considerations.Notice that the Deseret
News itself (which is owned by the LDS church) is publishing stories about this.
Why would the newspaper owned by the LDS church publish such stories?
Obviously, they're not trying to give the church a black eye. They're
effectively showing how silly our current immigration laws are. And they're
reinforcing an important idea--the church isn't too concerned about what your
immigration status is. The church is focused on more important things.
It seems to me that "What the church advocates for is a good balance of
justice and mercy" to many Mormons is amnesty, open borders, and unlimited
If the US is deporting these two men, I wonder why I haven't been deported yet?
It is certainly as just to deport me as it is to deport them.
What I wish to comment on is the possibilities of this family in their native
land of Guatemala. It does not have to be seen as bad.Being a branch president I
would asume that he will continue to be active in the church.The church is very
strong in Guatemala.His family can join him and maintain the same ideals and
values they had in Utah. There are jobs available in Guatemala for those who are
trained and willing to work. Family life there can be very good if one decides
to make it that way.Having lived in Guatemala as an active member of the church
and knowing what can be done if there is a positive attitude and a willingness,
I personally know that life can be as good as or even better than what this
family expirenced in Utah.They dont need to be in the United States to have the
good life. They can make it happen right in their own country. I know this is
true.To be deported may have been a blessing. Maybe.......
To those who condemn the the illegal aliens for "breaking the law":You sound like those who would condemn the Savior for healing on the Sabbath
or eating with a publican. How can you look down on the less fortunate? The
meek? The poor in spirit, the lowly in heart? Do you turn away the beggar and
judge them to be a thing of naught? Would you be those who were in favor of
rounding up the Jews because it was the law? This is NOT what the Savior taught.
He taught love and empathy and kindness to EVERYONE! No matter how they came to
be where they are. There are laws in this country, but there ALWAYS is a higher
law. Matthew 22:37-40 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt alove the Lord thy
God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.This
is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou
shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.On these two commandments hang all the
law and the prophets.
Illegal means exactly that Illegal...get rid of all Illegals now! Everyone get
out and vote when the vote comes to yoru county to punish and close All
businesses that hire Illegals!
Either one obeys the law or they don't. You can't have it both ways. Shame on
the LDS church leadership for not balancing mercy and justice.How
can leadership in good faith call a man to a position of responsibility when he
isn't being responsible for himself. As a member of the church, The
"Official Statement" on ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is contrary to the basic
obey the law of the land tenent of our religion.
While serving as Bishops, Mr. Callejas-Hernandez and Mr. Carian-Odonez
knowingly, intentionally and repeatedly broke the law.Now their families
may have to pay the price ... hopefully not!
Majorie, it is so great to see your byline again. We miss your columns.
If someone is here illegally, HOW can they be serving in any LDS leadership
capacity? "Honoring, obeying and sustaining the law" should count for
something, or it should be stricken from the Articles of Faith. Such hypocrisy
creates a great deal of "confusion" among Utah Mormons, the worldwide
members "understand" how things work here in Utah.
This still amazes me. In the country illegally and are allowed to be in a
position of leadership and thus be permitted to go to the temple. Drink a beer
once in a while or a coffee (which is not a crime) and you can't do either. Does
anybody else see a problem with that?
All of the people that were deported were breaking the law. Those quoted in the
article are wrong when they say they have broken no laws.None of
them were working in farm related jobs. I am continually told that those who are
here illegally are taking jobs that no one else wanted. That seems to be
untrue.The U.S. can't take in everyone who wants to be here. Those
that are unwilling to wait should not be given priority over those willing to do
it the right way.If we want to come up with a solution to this
problem, we must start to be honest with the facts. When we try to justify, or
sugar coat things, we paint an incorrect picture. All the distortions that are
presented is preventing us from openly discussing the true problems and how we
can best solve the problem.The flood gates must be shut! Everyone
that is not here illegally must leave, and come back in a legal way. Nothing
else is acceptable.
Where does the repentance process fit in here? I thought that an important part
of repentenace was to right your wrongs, make your victim whole, etc., to the
extent you can. Does someone who has broken the law and entered and stayed in
this country illegally not have to repent for that? How does this person
"pay" for their illegal actions other than to make it right -- to
leave and enter when it is legal to enter? Do criminals no longer have a duty
to pay restitution, to the extent they can, to their victims during the
repentance process? Aren't all American citizens and others who are in this
country lawfully victims of these illegal activities? Just look at the
resources that our legislatures and others are having to allocate to these
activities. Resources are scarce right now. We are all being harmed by this.
How does turning the other cheek mesh with the repentence process of righting a
why does the church think it is not in the immigration business, but will
blindly baptize as many illegal aliens as they can lead into the water? Where
are the Bishops when the baptisimal interview takes place? Why not save alot of
heartache by asking these folks, "are you here legally." Just follow
the common sence approach, "if it walks like a duck and quacks like a
duck" find out if the folks are lawfully in this country. Alot of
heartache can be averted. Where is the leadership in abiding by the laws of the
Since when does it ask in the Temple interview or Church calling questions,
"Are you a legal resident of the US"? It does not ask every question
know to man or that will satisfy all the "non-LDS" people. For all you
self-righteous people out there, do you ever go over the speed limit or cheat on
your taxes or steal somethimg from work and then declare yourself "honest
in your dealings with your fellow man." If the Church were to
ask every person they interview if they were a legal person in the country, they
then would be critized for snooping into lives and of being racist.
To OldCougar:As a former Bishop I did take this up with the
"authorities" in SLC and was told to leave it alone.
I am appalled at the totally Pharasitical attitudes attitudes in the comments
here. I doubt that our Saviour would agree with their attitudes. The Law is
meant to serve people, not to be the peoples master.
As others have mentioned, we are a sovereign nation that has the right and duty
to enforce its boarders and regulate its citizenry. We are a country that
respects the rule of law. To enforce the law doesn't make you mean-spirited or
without compassion. If the laws aren't just or appropriate to today's realities
then we all need to work within the law to get them changed. I'm grateful for
forums like this were there can be a free exchange of ideas on the issue.2
Nephi 2:13"And if ye shall say there is no law, ye shall also say
there is no sin. If ye shall say there is no sin, ye shall also say there is no
righteousness. And if there be no righteousness there be no happiness. And if
there be no righteousness nor happiness there be no punishment nor misery. And
if these things are not there is no God. And if there is no God we are not,
neither the earth; for there could have been no creation of things, neither to
act nor to be acted upon; wherefore, all things must have vanished away."
To Old Cougar - you are rather harsh yourself.To Deep in the Heart of TX -
church membership is not deporting illegal immigrants, US Law enforcement is.
I find it ridiculous to call other commentators' validity of Chruch
membership into question. We all have a right to our opinion, and because one
feels pro or against, does not indicate our worthiness before God. God
determines that. To tell someone else that they are not a good member of the LDS
church is not your business! Regrettable as this situation is, I think
all hope for a satisfactory solution. I imagine that since these men served in
such positions, they are wonderful and I wish them & their families the best
in their adversity.
oldcoug,You've asked others to post their names. How about you
posting your names so illegal immigrants, panhandlers (Why just stop with the
illegal status? Panhandlers are God's chidren, too, and are neighbors even
though they aren't in houses.), etc. can locate you so you can share and
whatever you have with them?Personally, I can support the laws of
the land AND love my neighbors AND not judge. I'm leaving that to enforcement
There is an answer to all of this. First we clean out our corrupt government and
promote industry and manufacturing. Than we clean out the corruption to the
south and make them tax paying states. We'll all be American citizens and people
to the south will more likely stay in their area. Easy answer.
I agree with some others that, when asked, "Are you honest in your
business dealings?" that this also means have you broken any laws.
It really is absurd that being in this country illegally is not reason for
denying a Temple recommend--but drinking a cup of coffee is. However,
with that said, I am very frustrated that people here illegally, but, that are
working, paying taxes, and contributing to society in general are the ones being
deported; while, at the same time, there are thousands here who are criminals,
or not paying taxes, or are a menace to society in general are running around
waving Mexican flags and protesting our steenkeen system-- are not even
considered for deportation. Why is it that ICE only picks on the good
people? This is typical of our insane, totally screwed-up justice system !!
If you try to determine a fellow LDS member's faithfulness, you will answer to
the Holy one of Israel, and he employeth NO servant. You will be judged
accordingly for thinking you can assume the Lord's role.
Janet said, Ephesians 2:19: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and
foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of
God." Refers to gentiles(Ephesians)who are now Christians.In
Arizona: see, Romans 13:1-6 Pauls explains authority, some excerpts:He who
rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and
those who do will bring judgment on themselves.(Romans 13:2 NIV)Therefore
it is necessary to submit to the authorities ,not because of possible
punishment, but also because of conscience. (Romans 13:4 NIV)Copied by The
Articles of faith #12.
Fix the legal immigration already! These are the kinds of people we WANT to
keep.The US has so many willing to come, it is like having the first
100 picks of the NFL draft, yet we allow our border to be violated by crooks
while we (at random) pick up illegals like this man who clearly should be our
Chances are he would have been granted citizenship by now if he had persisted
with his initial application.
To those who are claiming that the current immigration laws are not sacrosanct
and that illegal aliens don't believe the laws are enforced, let me ask you
this:If this is true, why the need to sneak into the country? If
they truly believe our immigration laws are not in force, why not just let the
fine folks at the border crossing know you are moving to the U.S. and don't
intend to leave?Judging from the hundreds of thousands of illegal
aliens (Mexican and Canadian Nationals) who sneak across the border in the dead
of night, I'd have to say the above comments are patently false.
A simple solution to our immigration mess is to require all persons to possess
and carry a valid passport. My son is currently employed in Australia. You had
better believe that he was not allowed to board a flight from the US without
showing his passport, having an electronic visa (expiring 12 months from its
issue date), and a return date at the end of his employment. I am confident it
will be enforced in Australia. He must carry his passport with him. As
tourists or employees in a foreign country we follow the rules they set, yet as
citizens in this country we whine that obtaining a passport is too costly or too
difficult.In a foreign country we recognize our need to carry our
passport. We should require one for all citizens here. Those who complain will
still have to comply.More importantly, those who cannot obtain a US
passport will be easily identified and can then be dealt with as the law
Living in a certain geographical area is not morally wrong.
Is this person worthy to have a temple recommend or hold a church calling? This
is not for me to question or to judge. I have faith that the church leaders
have made the correct decision and I will support them. I dont always agree or
want to do what the church ask, so being a simple man, I follow with faith. So
I have faith that the church leadership did it for a valid reason and that is
good enough for me.
Dnews moderator, post does not violate your terms.Translated from a
recently discovered printed artifact from the Wampanoag tribe, who occupied
modern day Massachusetts circa 1620 when the Pilgrims arrived...I
don't know about you, but I've had enough of these lazy immigrants turning our
country into their own welfare state. Wake up people!They show up
with 90 sometimes 100 in a single ship cabin. They make no effort to learn the
language. They never bathe. They carry all kinds of diseases. And they rely on
honest, bead-and-shell paying Wampanoag to take care of them!Just
the other day I was trading some wampum with one of these shoe wearers and he
starts talking to me in English. English! I said, "Hey, you coat-wearing
freak! Around here we speak Wampanoag. W-A-M-P-A-N-O-A-G!" Of course, he
just stares at me like an idiot.Look, they're not all bad. Some of
my good friends are Pilgrims. But we need to think about building a fence. A big
ol' mud fence. Otherwise, don't come crying to me when we're all eating with
forks and speaking English in 10 years.
Wait..this guy LIVED here for 20 YEARS and never took steps to become a citizen,
make things legal and we are supposed to feel sorry for him because he got
caught breaking the law?? Sorry. Not going to happen.
Did anyone already a U.S. citizen offer to sponsor either of these men as legal
Having been to Guatemala multiple times, I hope this family is well connected
with people there. If they are not, I have serious concerns about their
safety.And Guatemala is one of the safest Central American nations.
It's just that when people get deported to their "home"
country, they are often targets of kidnappings and murders. That's just the sad
truth about these situations.
Oldcougar,I actually approach these threads will the desire to learn
and hear diferent viewpoints. Over the course of time, I can say I've learned,
changed opinions and have new insights because of reading these kind of
comments.When the LDS church issued the Manifesto abolishing the
practice of polygamy to put the Church in line with the law of the country,
families were torn apart, children left fatherless, and wives without husbands.
I know this, because my ancestors were among the affected as my grandfather lay
imprisoned in the Sugar House penitentiary. His journals revealed how tormented
he was leave his other wives whom he loved and cared for over the years.
Regardless, the Church put itself in line with the law and was able to
progress.In every way, I sustain the President of the Church, but
was hoping other lay people could help me understand better perhaps something I
don't. Your condescending opinion is not what I'm looking for. I'm happy to
proceed in the manner my leaders have asked...to the letter.
USALover,I think a lot of good members are conflicted here.We all know that hopping the border is illegal. The question I have looked at
is why do we have 12 million folks here illegally? It didn't happen
overnight.It's not just lax border enforcement or highly motivated
illegal immigrants from failed states. It's due to de facto national policy.Until recently, we have approached border enforcement with a wink and a
nod. Essentially saying to those south of the border "you really can't
cross the border but if you do there are jobs waiting for you".Despite what the law says, our national policy has been to allow significant
illegal immigration. This has been from both parties and over several
administrations.So, now we have folks who have been here for a
decade or more, have steady jobs, good families and established homes.They are here partly due to the failure of our nation to have a coherent
immigration policy. We should not punish those who took our tacit invitation to
work here. I think the church simply recognizes the political realities and
tries to minister to the flock.
So, if we allow all of the "good" people that are able to illegally
cross our borders or stay in the U.S. in violation of their visa, where would it
end? 10 million 20 million, even 50 million a year, and there would still be be
border jumpers and visa overstayers. How would we defend our border if all of
the "Good" illegal aliens were allowed to stay? Think this amnesty
thing to its logical end, and it doesn't look good for the United States. As for being "Good," remember that all of those with a visitor
or temporary visa promised when interviewed at the consulate or embassy that
they would return within the visa time limit. They also agreed when they signed
for the visa that they would return as required. So, they are Not so
"Good" but liars. We have enough American liars we don't need to
to CJ | 9:13 a.m. June 15, 2011 Murray, UT..."Our
immigration laws are just fine" ok, so that's why immigration is such a big
mess right now. Your PRIDE doesn't resolve the issue, reform is needed, everyone
knows that/ "And YES WE CAN expel millions of illegals, it has been done by
three Presidents" Who and how many? I can guess that you have more than 40
millions illegals (and not just from south of the border)/ " Illegals are
destroying the state and nation, looting our treasuries and taking jobs away
from Americans and bla, bla, blah etc" Looting? I haven't seen people that
work more than the mexicans, low rate pay and no benefits at all! paid by people
like you! you sound like when the germans were talking about the jews because
they were destroying the country and taking jobs, same comments, sad but true./
"The last thing we need is people like you out there waving the white flag
while our nation is being overrun with illegals" I hope one day we can
understand that we need each other, do you know huch much money the contry can
make out of this? nope
If there were truly compassionate individuals and organizations in Utah,they
would have aided this family by sponsoring them. Why after all this
time was that not done?
There is actually one very big solution to this problem that many people
overlook. ENFORCE the laws against hiring illegals. Those who are here illegally
are only here because they can afford to be here. This means that they fall into
one of two groups. First they are working under the table and the employers know
this or second they are committing identity fraud. If it is the first then the
employer should have a very large fine for the first offence (if multiple
illegals are involved in this offense then jail time for each member of
management who knew) and loss of business license for second offence. This will
make it to risky to knowingly hire illegals. For the second group they have
committed a felony and should be deported. NO RELEASE UNTILE DEPORTATION
HEARING. With very few jobs most will self deport for lack of funds.
Now for the second part of the solution. With the illegals self deporting you
than start a strict guest worker program. Each person is given a work visa for a
specific length of time. Anyone under 6 moths can NOT bring family members with
them unless they have their own work visa. They are required to return to their
own country at the end of the visa to reapply. Failure to return would be a 5
year ban from obtaining another visa for first offence and life time for a
second.The third part is that we Americans must be willing to back to
doing hard labor without being paid extremely high wages. This means we do not
get a new computer every 6 months or a new cell phone every 6 months. We
actually make due with the things we have rather than trying to be better than
our neighbors.For those who say that we do not let enough immigrants in
how do you think the illegals effect that number? The more that come illegally
the fewer that are allowed legally. So they effect that number.
We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in
obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.Kinda self explanatory don't you
Unfortunatley the law has to be enforced or we will have anarchy. This is the
neocon and neoliberal vision of America. Illegals coming here by the
thousands everyday. Government expansion will be enforced to the point of not
even having privacy in your own home. The national debt will be hopelessly high
and unable to be paid off no matter what. We will be engaged in so many wars
across the country that will dwarf the Nazi regime. We will have police
everywhere in tanks patroling our streets and everybody in the country will be
labelled a terrorist.
The missionary handbook states that we never suggest nor incourage immigration.
I think this makes the church's position on this matter very clear.
Millions of illegals have entered our lands seeking better lives for their
families. They usually start at the bottom of the workforce and take minimum
labor rates or less. This provides an excess of laborers seeking lower paying
jobs, thus employers don't have to raise wages and benefits to attract our
current workforce. Eventually we deal with the problem by giving them amnesty
and the cycle repeats itself. Our nation has high unemployment yet they still
come. We cannot keep them out unless we want to become like East Germany and
build secure walls and shoot to kill. Truly King Solomon could solve this issue,
but we don't have any wise men as politicians. Maybe the only solution is to
create one nation under God for all of the Americas.
@DaleC: "When told the people were starving and had no bread, Marie
Antoinette reportedly said, "Let them eat cake!" Is that how we
feel?"We have 15 million unemployed Americans in this country.
Would you rather have illegal foreigners eating cake or our unemployed?------------------------@MormonDem: "Also, it's rather
amusing to see folks telling the brethren how to interpret the 'honesty' TR
question while simultaneously testing the boundaries of the 'sustain the leaders
of the Church' TR question by opposing the Church's immigration policy."Too funny! Church leaders' immigration policy is: Love thy neighbor;
the importance of keeping families intact; and the federal governments
obligation to secure its border.No one is opposing Church
immigration policy. Illegals can be loved as they are lovingly sent home. The
families can be kept intact as they gather to leave as a family. And as far as
I am aware, reviewing the degree of border security or lack thereof is not an
issue discussed in the TR interview.
sadly, we had a very unfortunate experience with a branch president of a spanish
speaking branch here. His branch activity was in serious breach of handbook
instructions as well as stepping on the toes of those who had legitimately
reserved the building. He was rude, plain and simple and was insisting they'd
done nothing wrong. Apparently he thought they didn't have the follow the same
rules and the rest of us. I'm sorry this man's family has to be temporarily
separated, but rules are rules and that's something very young children learn.
Follow the rules and you'll be much happier.
1847 - Mormon pioneers led by Brigham Young enter the Salt Lake Valley, Mexico.
How many of the above posters have ever broken the speed limit?
Most of the above posters don't know the distinction between the violation of a
regulatory law - malum prohibitum and the violation of a moral law, malum in
se.Extreme example - What if Congress passed a law prohibiting
private prayer in homes? How many of the above posters would "break the
law" and still be considered criminals?
I'm sorry for these men. Immigration laws need to change to accomodate people
To those who think the church's stance on immigration can be understood from a
missionary handbook (which obviously only applies to missionaries), from the
12th Article of Faith, or from other sources, might I recommend you go to the
church Newsroom and look at the latest statements on immigration. The church
clearly supports what many of you would call amnesty (allowing undocumented
immigrants to become legal and remain in the U.S.) Another statement clearly
states that the worthiness of undocumented immigrants is an issue for their
bishop, not members-at-large.If this bothers you, you have 3
options:1. Realize you disagree with the church on this issue, and realize
that it's okay to disagree with the church on some issues.2. Get mad at
the church over the issue and leave.3. Realize your ideas might be wrong
and think about changing your views.
@Timj: "The church clearly supports what many of you would call amnesty
(allowing undocumented immigrants to become legal and remain in the
U.S.)"If that be the case the Church is conflicted because it
has a rule about obeying, honoring, and sustaining laws. Church members who are
in this country without proper documentation either becasue they sneaked across
the border or because they came here on a legal visa but overstayed, are not
obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law. The Church cannot have "Marie
Antonette's" cake and eat it too.
Perhaps if these families had been related to President Obama, they could have
stayed in the U.S. forever, while living in publicly-subsidized housing. Heck!
They even might have attended his inauguration and visited the White House! I guess they weren't "illegal" enough.
I have seen nothing xenophobic in the comments so far. Those dishing out the
word are either demonstrating a new personal acquisition of and lack of
understanding just enough to (mis)use a new $0.25 word, or they are trying to
inflate/change the meaning, or to throw out the race card. We see libs and the
media doing this all the time with "extremist" and
"marriage."I also reject that more than a handful of
people here are judging the hearts and intent of the two families portrayed here
as victims by the slant of the writer. Most posts are criticizing either the
process, the law, or the lack or attempts at enforcement thereof. Quoting
scriptures about judgment is asinine in this context - we make necessary and
protective judgments every day, and in this case, citizens are making judgments
about laws, policies, processes, statements that are by necessity discriminatory
and which are the process by which one educates and creates thought processes
used in society for when and how we vote, or spend, or attend, or support our
choices. Nearly no one has condemned either family head in any eternal sense,
nor made racist or xenophobic comments.
Isn't it ironic that the LDS CHurch survived because they came to Salt Lake
City, which was MEXICO? I highly doubt there would be as much resistance to
this if SLC had the same number of illegal Canadian immigrants. This is a race
I am also an immigrant to the USA. However, I followed the immigration laws of
the Uninted States and eventually became a US Citizen. I am also a member of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. Why couldn't these people have done
the same thing? If people come to this country and chose not to comply
with its immigration laws, then they are, in fact, breaking the law and should
be dealt with accordingly. If an individual holds a high position within the LDS
church, it does not and should not cover up the fact that they are in this
country illegally. If they are breaking the laws of this land, it seems
incomprehensible how they are allowed to rise to high positions within the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and probably hold valid Temple
Recommends. There is something wrong with this picture. I am miffed
by people trying to soften the offence of violating immigration laws by calling
themselves "un-documented immigrants." The fact is, they are law
breaking "illegal immigrants" and should be deported.
MormonDem suggests immigration laws are not liberal enough. Say No to BO says
"just a decade ago we had 3-4 million illegal aliens. Now we have 12
million+," suggesting laws are too liberal, haven't been enforced or are
unenforceable.Huh? immigration laws? 8-9 million entering any
country is a "boots on the ground" invasion. (Compare numbers from
report during similar time frame suggesting US peaked at 187,900 boots on the
ground in FY2008 for both Iraq/Afghanistan at fas dotorg forwardslash
sgp/crs/natsec/R40682.pdf). Boots need to be sent back to respective
native grounds as quickly and humanely as possible. Denial free, too--the US
can't sustain this problem financially. We're broke and aliens are part of the
problem. Kissing, hugging, tearfully waving good-bye or providing
resources for relocation costs can be a personal choice or an ideal service
project for mercifully-minded US individuals, small communities or religious
groups that want to use donated resources to help their favorite boots get
Thank you JJL from Eugene, OR. I am a convert and have a strong testimony of the
gospel of Jesus Christ, but sometimes I have a hard time feeling positively
about being affiliated with the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints when
I hear all of these judgmental, black and white responses to life. So much of
life is gray and requires sincere study, pondering, and meditation to find the
truth and for me there are occasions when I may find it difficult to agree with
all political decisions mainstream Mormons follow. Do I feel bad about
questioning and searching; no. Do I get frustrated with church members who seem
to rattle off glib opinions about things they either know little about or have
taken little time to examine- yes. Wish I could quote the exact statement by
Brigham Young where he says he would rather have members question doctrine and
search out answers than those who seemingly follow blindly like sheep.
Immigration is a touch subject, but I personally feel we make it too hard for
honest, hardworking aliens to work here legally and many come only because they
cannot support their families in their country.
"had not committed any crime?" Who are they kidding? Just being here
illegally is a crime! It's a misdemeanor the first time you enter the country
illegally, and a felony on each subsequent entries! Working involves either a
social security number that isn't yours, or being compensated "under the
table," both of which are crimes. How could anyone who is here illegally
NOT have committed any crime!Here's the deal. It doesn't matter
that these were LDS branch presidents. That's no reason to let them stay. In
fact, they should be ashamed for lying to their LDS leaders. When I was in the
bishopric and stake presidency, I was never given any exemptions to laws for
that reason or any other. If I sped, I got a ticket. If I had committed a
felony I would have spent time in prison. The US is not and CANNOT
be the free haven to the world. We cannot afford it and we should not destroy
our country and our freedoms trying to do it.
@Good Will: "Perhaps if these families had been related to President
Obama, they could have stayed in the U.S. forever..."Good
point, Good Will. Obama's aunt, who was asked to leave years ago, is still in
this country. Makes you wonder if Eric Holder, OBama's AG, had anything to do
I don't understand why so many have trouble reconciling the 12th AOF with the
Church's statement. What's wrong with providing a way for those who have broken
immigration laws with "squaring" themselves with the law as the Church
states? Why is deportation and uprooting lives the only solution? I agree
with Maryquilter. Things can't always be decided by nice neat formulas. I keep
being reminded of Inspector Javert finding it impossible to cut Jean Valjean any
kind of slack. (There's a lot that can be learned about being Christlike from
Les Miserables IMO.) I applaud those who have immigrated here the right way,
but I understand that's not always possible. Not many of us know for sure what
decision we would make in similar circumstances. Many of these individuals came
here when the country was essentially turning a blind eye and have established
lives here. Open hostility to such a huge segment of society isn't good,
especially when it's identified mostly with one ethnic group. We have to find a
way to deal with it that is practical, civil and compassionate.
Reply to the comments by Cache Valley Native (6:57 14 June):Just
want to point out that the story is NOT over! While there is no question that
this is a severe trial in their lives, I believe that our Father in Heaven will
watch over them as they do what is right to the best of their abilities and that
in the end, things will work out for the best. Google "Young Love in
Rexburg" to see how it is working out for another couple who self reported
and did the right thing. I will continue to pray for them and am sure that many
of you will also. Also you may want to Google "Gumballs and
Immigration" to get a more complete picture about Immigration, both illegal
and legal. I read a story about a Mormon lady who went to a temple
to attend a wedding and discovered that her temple recommend had expired. After
launching into all the reasons why she should be let in anyway, the desk
official simply bowed his head and quietly said "Expired is expired".
By the same token, "Illegal is illegal."
SoCalChris--you said, "Not many of us know for sure what decision we would
make in similar circumstances. Many of these individuals came here when the
country was essentially turning a blind eye and have established lives
here."I absolutely know that I would not stay illegally in
another country, state, house, or place of business. When a store closes I
leave. I don't hunt out of season. I don't go sleep in my neighbors houses when
they are on vacation. I take my passport and get it stamped when I go to another
country and I leave on time.I would not get in a marriage and have
children knowing I had to watch out for the law because if I got arrested I
would not be able to raise my children, provide for them, and take care of them.
As to your statement that they came when there/here was a
"blind eye..." Entitlement at its finest. If you really believe
doing something is okay if no one is watching please get info on entitlement.
Richard Eyre has a book coming out on it. There is plenty of info already
written this topic. Look
Voice,Where did I say it's OK to do something wrong when no one is
looking? I'm saying that the decision some people may have made may be
understandable and not that nefarious. What I meant was there was time when
there was almost an implied invitation to come to this country. If I had been
born in a corrupt place with little opportunity across the border from the best
country in the world and virtually no way to come here legally I can't say for
sure what I would have done. The illegals I see all the time in So Cal don't
seem to have an entitlement mentality. Far from it. I don't see any
panhandling. Selling oranges, mowing lawns, looking for work outside Home
Depot, but I don't see any asking for handouts. I'm glad to hear
you never do anything wrong like that. If everyone had those kind of standards
the world would be a much better place.
Apparently, my point about LDS immigrants led by my church's 2nd prophet Brigham
Young, settling down in Mexico didn't persuade most of the subsequent posters
above. Let's try another concrete example of how the 12th Article
of Faith is applied in certain circumstances: Brigham Young arrested for bigamy
and the following from Wikipedia: "The Morrill Anti-Bigamy Act
(37th United States Congress, Sess. 2., ch. 126, 12 Stat. 501) was a federal
enactment of the United States Congress that was signed into law on July 8, 1862
by President Abraham Lincoln. Sponsored by Justin Smith Morrill of Vermont, the
act banned bigamy and limited church and non-profit ownership in any territory
of the United States to $50,000.The act was designed to target the
Mormon practice of plural marriage and the property dominance of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the Utah Territory. The measure had no
funds allocated for enforcement, and Lincoln choose not to enforce this law;
instead Lincoln gave Brigham Young tacit permission to ignore the Morrill Act in
exchange for not becoming involved with the Civil War."I guess
BY and Honest Abe were criminals too.
The argument that illegal immigrants are in the wrong because they are breaking
the law is tired and virtually irrelevant. The law is broken. It has been for
years. Agriculture didn't want immigrants made legal and that prevented new
immigration laws. Now there are 11 million illegal immigrants. Deporting them
all would be the largest forced migration in history. The only solution is to
acknowledge that the system is broken and make new laws dealing with the
situation as it is. A country who won't allow new immigrants the
chance for a better life is becoming selfish and stagnant. Demography is the
future and the future belongs to what were minorities. It's something you can't
change, you can only adapt to. I like diversity in my friends and
acquaintances. I admire the work ethic of immigrants. I would like them to
have the same opportunities my immigrant ancestors did. Otherwise I am no
better than those who treated immigrants from Europe poorly. By the
Golden Rule I would let any hard-working, upstanding immigrant come to this
country to try for a better life. Anyone would try to leave the violence and
other problems of Latin America.
@SoCalChris:"I don't understand why so many have trouble
reconciling the 12th AOF with the Church's statement. What's wrong with
providing a way for those who have broken immigration laws with
"squaring" themselves with... Church/state laws?"There is a way... leave, file citizenship papers, and get in line. There are
millions who want in and are doing it the right way."Why is
deportation... the only solution?" We tried the other way in
1986 and it backfired. We now have 15 million illegals wanting the some
goodies."I applaud those who have immigrated here the right
way, but I understand that's not always possible."That's
becasue we have immigration policies and quotas. Illegals knock it out of
kilter."Not many of us know for sure what decision we would
make in similar circumstances."I know... When I walk by a bank
I have this urge to rob it. I need money more than the bank does."Open hostility to such a huge segment of society isn't good..."'Huge segment' are the operative words. At the rate we are going, we
will soon be an Hispanic country. Are you ready for Spanish to be our primary
@SomeoneAgain - you say immigration law is "broken" so we shouldn't
follow it. I tend to agree, but in my opinion we have many "broken"
laws. Like speed limits for instance. Hardly anybody follows them so in my
opinion they are "broken" and we should be able to drive as fast as we
want all the time. Do you agree? Millions of Americans use illicit drugs, so
obviously our narcotics laws are "broken" and all drugs should be
legal. I could go on and on. My point is that my list of obviously
"broken" laws is probably different from yours. Perhaps there needs
to be a process for sorting out which ones really need to followed (and which
ones don't) though rather than having everybody disregard the ones they don't
I find it odd that my comment about the church joining the Mexican-American War
in 1846 (and fighting for the United States) was not acceptable to the censors
at DN. Perhaps they thought the 500 soldiers were mercenaries. Thomas Kane
would be surprised to hear that.
Twice now the DN has approved comments only to later deny them. Who exactly do
you have making these decisions? I am starting to think you have an Amnesty Nazi
who withdraws any comments that don't fit your open borders, lawless, give away
the country approach to illegal aliens and throw legal Americans under the bus
approach on this issue.
This is a good example of why some of just don't sustain church leaders anymore.
My careful thought and meditaion and prayer has lead me to a very different
conclusion. No matter how many times I pray about it, harboring illegal aliens
and allowing them to break the law is not right. I do disagree with the
"brethern" and I do not believe that their authority trumps my own
I've been a member of the Church for 48 years and came to this country legally.
The Church used to emphasize obeying the law of the land. If we could not come
legally, we had to stay in our country of origin to "build up Zion"
there. PERIOD! Does the fact that the Church baptizes more people in South and
Central America more than anywhere else, account for its surprising and
disturbing change of position?Let's not forget how the practice of
polygamy (contrary to the law of the land) got us in so much trouble and misery
until a prophet decided it was time to return to observing the rule of law. The
Church has been striving ever since. Does it want to go on a slippery slope
again. We look like fools talking from both sides of the mouth:"we support
the law of the land but for our own purposes, we will ignore it!". Sad and
very disturbing!What a confusing message to our young people: you have to
keep the commandments, but if there is 1 or 2 that you don't like, just ignore
OOPS! I meant thriving and not striving.
It is so good that Guatemala and El Salvador have set up guest worker programs.
Their economies have really been hit hard by the world wide recession. This
action can only help these countries.
A friend from Texas is a fosterparent who gets paid by the goverment to watch
children whose parents have been deported. There is no way for these parents to
come back and claim their American kids. How can deporting all the illegal
immigrants will help the country? What would happen to all the kids left behind?
Wouldn't be better to find a way of securing the border but allowing the decent
working people stay?
"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints discourages its members
from entering any country without legal documentation, and from deliberately
overstaying legal travel visas." The Church statement does not
encourage illegal behavior. What it encourages is compassion and civility.
Tony Yapias says this man committed no crime? Oh I don't know...how about being
in this country illegally? How is that for one Tony. Shesh Tony GO
HOME. You and your ilk that support illegal immigration are not welcome here.
@ In Arizona:You received good counsel. I suggest you abide by it.
@Someone Again, JJL, and So Cal Chris-Way to go. Your comments give
me hope for intelligent, open-minded Latter Day Saints in this country. I was
beginning to wonder if there were any people like you on this site. The ideas
you have shared have uplifted me, but I am afraid they are falling on
predominantly deaf ears. I look forward to hearing from you on future Deseret
The Church is correct. We should be compassionate and civil... as we do all we
can to fight amnesty and deport illegals.That means smile and think
happy thoughts while you call ICE about that neighbor of yours.
I have no sympathy for this family. They knew coming here was against the law.
The church should have known and should not have allowed them to remain let
alone call him to a church leadership position. If he's qualified to be a
leader here, then he should be so in his home country. His wife makes it sound
like he didn't to anything wrong to be chained "like a criminal" as he
was being deported. Ahhh, sorry, but he was/is a criminal, he is illegally
here, as well as his entire family. To keep them together deportation for all
of them. Confiscate everything they acquired while living here and auction them
off. It is time that Utah and every other state that harbors illegals be fined
or sued, and that includes religions that knowingly encourage the breaking of
laws by establishing facilities et al that instills comfort and a sense of
safety in our country. No illegal should feel safe in living here. Keep
looking over your shoulder because it is time to deport.
The LDS Church has issued a statement on 10 June, 20011 about immigration. It
states that it is the responsibility of Church Members to avoid being
judgmental. I agree. That's why we have a court system of competent
jurisdiction. Our Judicial system stands in judgment of the laws of immigration
in the USA and not us as individuals. However, that same legal system protects
our right as individuals to voice our beliefs and opinions without fear of
retribution.I believe that it is also the responsibility of Church
Members to not deliberately violate existing immigration laws in order to stay
in this country.How is deliberately violating immigration laws not in
conflict with the 12th article of Faith?The Church also stated that
we should treat each other as children of God. (I personally believe this to be
a profound truth). This was great council for everyone, even for non members of
the LDS Church.They also stated:"The Church supports an
approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with the
law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to
citizenship."Are they talking about the standard work visa and
It further stated:"In furtherance of needed immigration reform in the
United States, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints supports a
balanced and civil approach to a challenging problem, fully consistent with its
tradition of compassion, its reverence for family, and its commitment to
law."Specifically, what articles of Immigration reform are they
referring to?First of all, is it true that a US court determined
that the two people in question were residing in this country illegally?
Additionally, did the court determine that they had sufficient time to
"square themselves with the law"? If so, why should the fault be with
the "reform lacking" immigration system of the United States?Another issue raised was:What do we do with the estimated 12 Million
illegal immigrants now residing in the USA? The statement also mentioned that
unchecked and unregulated flow of illegal (undocumented) immigrants may
destabilize society, ultimately causing it to become unsustainable. (It seems
that California has surpassed that "unsustainable" threshold). Some
people argue that this condition is not caused by illegal (undocumented)
immigrants. How can large numbers of illegal immigrants coming into this country
possibly help to stabilize its economy?
Update:In an open letter written to the people of Cache Valley by
one of the branch presidents and published the other day by HJNews (Cache
Valley), Mr. Carias proceeds to accuse residents of Cache Valley of racism and
hypocrisy. A few excerpts: "I want the people of
Cache Valley to know that when I left, I left with a broken heart knowing that
Cache Valley which is supposed to be a sanctuary and refuge for all Latter-day
Saints is really a place where, instead of practicing clean, pure religion,
there are many judges, judging very harshly, dictating sentences with no love
toward their fellow men."***"...our Anglo
Saxon brethren. I didnt know the majority of them have racist
feelings..."***"Its really sad to know that in
this 21st century racism is alive and well."***"You are the people who supposedly understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ,
but you do not practice it...and we find that you yourselves are the worst
racists..."***"I do not judge you; judgment
belongs to our Father in Heaven. I pray for the people that rejoice in hurting
and inflicting so much pain to others."
"...compassionate and civil..."The use of these terms in
the context of the current illegal-immigration discussion is specious. There is
no glaring "compassion" or "civility" or "cruel or
unusual punishment" problem in this country when it comes to the treatment
of illegal aliens. Truth be told, they really are given the red carpet
treatment in this country. Even the few who are deported are given ample time
to get their affairs in order. So why bring up these terms
"compassion" and "civil?" They are brought up
in order to falsely lead the gullible into thinking that to be
"compassionate" and to be "civil" is to endorse illegal
behavior and to turn a blind eye to the illegal-alien invasion and plundering of