We are controversial for many reasons including the fact we are a relatively new
faith and tend to stick to our own (despite appeals by many of our leaders). Too
many of you congregate out in Utah - we need you to move out in the rest of the
world and be the salt of the earth.I was intrigued by the first
comment in the headline about "No other faith...). The Jews obviously have
a long history of misunderstanding, persecution and genocide to which we LDS
have nothing to compare. The Muslims are greatly misunderstood and many harbor a
generalized prejudice towards them. I find a general laziness in the
media (going back beyond Mark Twain) to really find out what people of faith are
like without resorting to the sensational just to sell paper. The stories today
about the LDS carry many of the same stereotypes that have been around for 190
years, whereas the people who get to know us have a more favorable opinion. We
need to do more to get out in the world, be on our best behavior and be
"anxiously engaged" in good causes. As we do this, the stereotypes
I would generally agree with all these positive comments about Mormons.However, there was certainly some "cherry picking" going on in the
I think this article illustrates a problem Mormons have:We're too
interested in ourselves. Our ears perk up whenever we're in the news, or at any
sign of the Church gaining recognition. We have an inflated sense both of our
impact on the world and of the general public's misunderstanding of us."Has any religious community been the subject of more curiosity,
controversy or misunderstanding than the Latter-day Saints?" Um, yes. How
about Scientology, Freemasonry (a religious community if not a religion), or
Islam? In the past, Jews, Catholics, and even Protestants have been the subject
of much misunderstanding and controversy in the communities in which they were
the minority. Mormons suffered an extermination order against them at one point,
but each one of those groups has actually been the subject of wars of
extermination.We would do well to talk to ourselves about ourselves
a little less, and learn about other religious traditions and beliefs.
Chachi,You are right. This may be called ego-centric, or
ethnocentric, or narcissistic, or self-absorbtion, or self-centeredness, or
self-promoting.Call it what you will, it permeates everything
Mormons do and gives the "plastic" superficial-ness to their personas
and relationships.I have always said I find my relationships with
Mormons, MLM-ers, and salespeople to be identical, and anything but genuine.
I would have to disagree with some of the positive things said. Some mormons I
have met have been nice and true to their word but a majority of others have
acted in most vindictive ways. Very clickish and judgemental towards other
people who dont have the same beliefs.
I generally disagree with every negative comment so far posted.I
respond to Charles in saying that who cares what those "frank"
opinions--we've already heard them. What's news is the good opinions, what we
hardly hear. (Thus this IS a cherry picking article.)I'm sorry that
Vanka has experienced "plastic" relationships with Mormons--my
experiences are vastly different.Chachi, I do not think there is
anything wrong with the fascination about ourselves. First, it is normal. Anyone
who is part of any kind of group will pick up on news about that group. Second,
it is always interesting to see how one's group is covered in the media.Also, I totally disagree with your assessment that "We have an
inflated sense both of our impact on the world and of the general public's
misunderstanding of us." We have an astounding impact on the world. Some
are news headline stuff, but most of the impact comes in influence with
individuals and communities. Else why have a true church?!!! And as a convert, I
will tell you that we definitely do not have an inflated idea of
misunderstandings about the church. It is rampant.
Leave it to a poet to ignore the obvious and use rose-colored observation in
stating an opinion.. I do not think that the Fancher party would agree with the
statement that overland travelers were greeted with hospitality and warmth from
the early Mormons residing in Utah at that time..As a matter of fact church
members,during part of that time,were forbidden to sell goods to or trade with
Gentiles under penalty of excommunication or death..Moreover,Brigham did indeed
promise a warm welcome to to Army personnel and officials sent from Washington
to establish a goverment free from the theocracy that reined for far too long in
Salt Lake City..It was the warmth of hot lead coursing through ones body..As
JoeBlow has pointed out,there was an enormous amount of out of context quotes in
this article that beg to be pointed out,and should be..I mean,do most church
members really believe that the early church appeared as it does now,with
platitudes raining down about their greatness? If so,some people need to go to a
library and do some historical fact-checking..
With all of the negative things said about Mormons in the media or out in the
community, I found this article refleshingly uplifting, and the fact that it
cherry picked doesn't bother me at all. Is it so bad that the Deseret News would
publish something positive once in a while? Are we supposed to ignore the fact
that sometimes people have a favorable opinion about the church or a particular
aspect of it? For every one positive article about the church, there will be 100
more that are negative. Can't you just let us have this one?
Story: *Coming Out: The story of an openly gay athlete By Nancy Armour
AP Published by DSNews 04/09/2011 Comments: Oh goody goody,
now when do we get to embrace the pedophile, the alcoholic, the closet litterer,
and nose picker. - HaHaHaHa | 1:37 p.m. April 11, 2011 This
post has since been removed by the Moderator. Thank you. As, it compares
an entire group to pedophiles. I do not pretend to know the
religious background of the poster OR the moderator but these types of comments
are common. And yet, was removed when the question of civility in
the discussion was brough up. Say what you will, as with everything,
there are good AND bad with any group. I have found majority of LDS
members to be polite and good. While the choices of some of their leadership
directly affect me and those I know, there is a tiny but growing majority I see
that treats others as they themselves want to be treated. While it
is obvious I do not agree with EVERYTHING the LDS church stands for... I am optimistic, as there is a growing number of LDS I CAN agree with.
The most successful salesman are those who "believe in there
product".With this product there is no commission, but there is a
sales goal.Keep selling my mormon family, the product is self sustaining,
and pays itself forward.....
The plastic persona problem is real, but much of that can be attributed to the
fact that many people just aren't used to people being polite or bold enough to
share their beliefs with them. I think people get so caught up in being
"real" sometimes, that they don't believe it's actually possible to
have a fully-functioning happy family, so when they see it, they naturally call
it fake. They don't see how anything "real" could be positive at the
same time, because their concept of what's real is so negative. That's not to
say that all LDS people have fully-functioning families, but many genuinely do.
It really is that good. What I don't understand is why some people feel
compelled to tear it down.
@bwoods..."Also, I totally disagree with your assessment that "We have
an inflated sense both of our impact on the world and of the general public's
misunderstanding of us." We have an astounding impact on the world. Some
are news headline stuff, but most of the impact comes in influence with
individuals and communities. Else why have a true church?!!! And as a convert, I
will tell you that we definitely do not have an inflated idea of
misunderstandings about the church. It is rampant."Thank you
for this point. Exactly, "Else why have a true church?"
Mark Twain was quoted here to give a small impression of objectivity. Most of
the other quotes were the obligatory post-platitudes that traveling dignitaries
give in public settings to maintain diplomacy. "uh...those Mormons sure
seem like good people, and their religion is admirable as an American
contrivance...I mean...specimen...of frontier theology". In other words,
it's probably not a good idea to read too much into diplomatic compliments. And yes, in the world of Mormonism, we are the most curious people - and
everyone wants to know about us. In the actual world, that is far less true.
I know, I know....If one chooses to live in Utah, one must deal with the
"This is the way people should live" Mormon Majority way of life, and
the "We are better than the rest of you" attitudes.If one should
not enjoy their unique environment, one is encouraged to move out of the
state.Rather than try to introduce diversity, or say something Mormon's
would consider negative about their culture, the philosophy of most
"outsiders" or "Gentiles" is to keep quiet.
A lot of my friends and some relatives are LDS. I have noticed there are clearly
different levels/types of LDS people ranging from "Temple Worthy" to
"Non Temple Worthy making it impossible to stereotype then entire group.For the most part, the LDS I am familiar with are good people who just happen
to live in a time where their religious leaders are more political than they are
spiritual.And that comes right from the horses mouth.
Mormons have to find new ways to set themselves apart. Perhaps less politics and
more spirituality. (See California and gay marriage)
Of course deseretnews cherrypicks. They do it with the comments too. I posted on
a mormon topic about some less than known facts about the church and the comment
was denied! I guess as the church filters and edits its own history, so does the
deseretnews. You lose credibility by 'shielding' people from the facts. Cool
story though anyways.
"Story: *Coming Out: The story of an openly gay athlete By Nancy
Armour AP Published by DSNews 04/09/2011Comments:Oh goody
goody, now when do we get to embrace the pedophile, the alcoholic, the closet
litterer, and nose picker.- HaHaHaHa | 1:37 p.m. April 11, 2011This post has since been removed by the Moderator. Thank you.As, it
compares an entire group to pedophiles.I do not pretend to know the
religious background of the poster OR the moderator but these types of comments
are common."No - gays arent trying to shove their gayness in
everyone's face. Clearly we're imagining this. This article had so much to do
with the gays it was a very applicable point to bring up the
"persecution" the gays face again.I don't see the
Mormons(of which I'm not) making all articles that have nothing to with Mormons
about the MormonsI don't see heterosexuals(which I absolutely am)
making all articles that have nothing to do with heterosexuality about
heterosexuals.I don't see Catholics(which I am) making all articles
that have nothing to do with Catholics about Catholics.
'I don't see the Mormons(of which I'm not) making all articles that have nothing
to with Mormons about the Mormons' - Chris B | 11:45 a.m. Chris, If I only spoke about homosexuals, that would make sense. But if you
read the rest, you will notice I spoke about my interactions with LDS
members. The horror! If you don't want the public, to
read or interact with the information you present... don't make it
availible to the public. As for: 'Mormons making all articles that
have nothing to with Mormons about the Mormons.' Answer one, simple
question. Who owns the DSNews? Good day to you. :)
I have been LDS my whole life. There is so much I love about my LDS heritage and
culture. But throughout adulthood I have been able to take a more objective view
of the LDS culture and beliefs. My work requires a lot of travel and as a result
the vast majority of my friends and peers are non-LDS allowing my to see my LDS
culture through the eyes of others.My conclusion is that we LDS do
some wonderful things in our own homes, wards, neighborhoods and communities. We
are a charitable people who genuinely care about the temporal and spiritual
well-being of others. In addition, we believe some things that outsiders see as
very strange and even some active LDS struggle to either wrap their heads around
or "put on the shelf" in spriritual self-preservation. Some
LDS-history is simply difficult to reframe in a positive way. I
think, like most cultures, belief-systems and families, we are a mixture of both
positive and negative. We can be wonderful, admirable, and sincere. But also
insular, defensive, robotically obedient, and a bit strange in some of our
beliefs/rituals.But I truly love being LDS.
Vanka,How would the people in those "plastic
relationships" describe THEIR relationship with you? If everyone you know
is plastic, it could either be ALL of them are that way (highly improbable) or
you are merely successful in finding the plastic ones out there. I'll bet you have some deep, fun Mormon friends somewhere...
Idaho Coug:I think you make some excellent points. Is there anything
to be admired about LDS people and our cultures? Sure there is. Are we unique?
Of course we are? Are we good? I can find many reasons to say yes. Are we
"pure"? No. Are we the most absolutely unique, interesting,
influential, good, family oriented, industrious, etc, people who have ever lived
or that now live? No. We are like every other culture in the world - we bring
some things to the table, we take some thing's from the table, and ultimately
contribute a small piece to the fabric of human culture. Independently however,
we are fairly inconsequential to the whole - we just happen to think that the
world revolves around us because from where we stand it appears to.
Religious persecution was intense during the life of Joseph Smith, Jr., the
founding prophet of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The Church
was driven from New York to Ohio to Missouri to Illinois, where Joseph Smith was
murdered, before the Latter-day Saint's Exodus to Utah. Left behind along this
long, arduous, faith-testing trail were those who could not endure. Only those
"Pioneers" whose commitment and faith and character were strong enough
remained "Saints."Some who become acquainted with us see
these positive attributes in most of the descendants of those "Mormon
Pioneers." Some do not like what they see. That is OK. They are not
required to appreciate our values. We like us! We also like our religious
neighbors, especially those who share our love for our Savior, Jesus Christ. If
you are not comfortable in our communities, we are very sorry; but we think that
we, the descendants of the Pioneers, have a right to be comfortable in our
communities. Thank you.
It is interesting to note how people complain about others interpretations or
bias and turn around and expose their own bias. We are all so "human."
I am hoping that one day the world will learn to separate "gospel"
from "church", and that applies to "LDS" as well as
"Answer one, simple question.Who owns the DSNews?"I'd be happy to - the Mormons.Now please answer me a few
questions:What color is the sun?What state is New York
City located in?Do Brazilians like soccer?Some people
struggle with simple concepts. My point remains clear.Not all groups continually force their beliefs on others.My
examples:Mormons don't make all articles that have nothing to do
with the Mormons about the Mormons.Heterosexuals don't make all
articles that have nothing to do with heterosexuality about heterosexuals.Even the des news(owned by the Mormons) doens't make every article about
the Mormons. My example?The sports section The entertainment sectionThe Life sectionMovies
SectionMultimedia sectionWorld and Nation sectionOpinion SectionObituaries SectionYes - there is
a Mormon section. Section - not every single articleThere IS a
group who does nothing but think about how they can force their lifestyles on
the rest of us.Thanks you Mormons for not turning every single
article into what you belief and why everyone must accept what you believe.I dont believe what the Mormons do, and I'm glad they give it a rest
So a few people say a some kind words about Mormons - ok, so what's the big
deal. Just say thank you, and forget about it. And to those apostate
haters with a burr under their saddle, or the non-apostate haters with the same
burr, why does it get under your skin so bad?
eastcoastcoug,You observed "If everyone you know is plastic, it
could either be ALL of them are that way (highly improbable) or you are merely
successful in finding the plastic ones out there. I'll bet you have some deep,
fun Mormon friends somewhere."I have close LDS friends with
genuine relationships, but they are the exception, not the rule. And their
genuineness is despite their religion, not because of it. Once in a while, after
General Conference, or a Stake push for "missionary work", they get
into a bit of a funk and become salespersons - the veneer goes up.I
have the same experience with MLMs. I have had several good friends who got
involved in MLMs and turned into the biggest jerks you can imagine.The doctrines (of religion and MLM) are what get in the way of genuine
relationships. When a person's "friendship" becomes a means to a
missionary end, the "plastic" veneer comes out, the
"performance" (set a good example) begins, and reality fades into the
background.A few expletives and confrontation from me, and my
genuine LDS friends snap out of it. One of them recently "snapped out
of" the Church. Good man.
"Has any religious community been the subject of more curiosity,
controversy or misunderstanding than the Latter-day Saints?"Uhm, yeah? I'm not saying we haven't had our share in controversy-- but you
would have to have no knowledge of history or religion at all to make a comment
like that. For centuries, wars upon wars have been fought because of
misunderstandings and prejudices within Catholocism, Islam, Judaism,
Protestantism, and Hinduism! To assume that a 181 yr old church has faced the
same level of conflict as these religions have is very ego-centric.
I happen to agree with Chris on this. If you don't like reading about something
then don't read it. Don't read it, then complain about having had to read it. I
don't like the 'arts' section so I don't read it. I could care less that others
like it. Utah is a mormon state, founded by mormons and settled by mormons. What
would you expect?
Tom - not all people who don't see eye to eye with the church are apostate or
haters. People within the church often have different views on even church or
doctrinal related issues. Lets not label anybody apostate or haters as it is a
generalization of people who don't agree with what you do.
There are free-spirits and there are Mormons.It's what makes the world go
'Utah is a mormon state, founded by mormons and settled by mormons.' -
Brahmabull | 12:59 p.m. In America. Utah is a mormon
state, founded by mormons and settled by mormons... in America. I've heard the 'well, you should follow the majority, since it's the
majority.' Sure. But that is a majority...in Utah. Not the country. And certianlly, not the world.
To date, there are more Catholics and Mulsim members than Mormons.
If I used the same 'America is a Christian nation' as an argument for Mormons to
become christian, it would sound foolish. And yet, in Utah I am not
supposed to have a view besides Mormon? That is foolish logic. If you don't want differing views, don't invite others who may actually
HAVE a differing view into the discussion... and then complain about
'persecution.' The title was: 'What famous people have said about
Mormons.' While I never want to be famous, I said good things about
LDS members. And many choose to ignore that. If you want
to feel persecuted because I differ in view, I cannot help you.
Brahmabull - my comment did not label "all people who don't see eye to
eye" as apostates or haters. You missed my point.Can't you see, it is obvious from the various comments, a large percentage of
those commenting have an itch under their skin because of the "cherry
picking" article that was written, which (article) happens to say all
positive things about Mormons.
Pagan - You seem to have trouble following what I was saying. I don't have a
problem with other peoples views at all. I am not saying to 'follow the
majority' or anything else. I don't care what you or anybody else do, as long as
it doesn't affect me and I expect the same. All I was saying is the REALITY is
that it is a mormon state, settled by mormons and so when you read the
mormon-owned newspaper you will get mormon related stories. It is part of the
history of this place. There is nothing wrong with that. Nobody is asking you to
convert to mormonism (assuming that you aren't). I don't like peoples beliefs
being pushed on me either, but if you live here the majority of the culture is
mormon. You will be exposed to it one way or another. I am not offended at
anything you wrote, and you shouldn't be either aat my posts. You are right - in
the rest of the world there aren't many mormons, but you live in Utah not in
another part of the world so get used to it.
Maybe, just maybe, God acts more plastic than not...thus mormon's are perceived
as being plastic...maybe if the entire world acted more plastic, there would be
less violence, more love, more charity, and people would be happier.Being plastic then, must be good, so what's the problem?
'You are right - in the rest of the world there aren't many mormons, but you
live in Utah not in another part of the world so get used to it.' - Brahmabull |
1:54 p.m. And you live in America. In the world. I guess it's a 'local view' vs. a 'global view' situation
Brahmabull. I recognize that I live in Utah. And I have lived here
for over 10yrs. To tell me to 'get used to it' is foolish. What
makes you think I haven't? To imply somehow that I'm not 'used' to
Utah but I still need to have the same 'mainstream' view to support the majority
here is also foolish. Going back to my 'America is a Christian
nataion' comment. Following your logic, I should adhere to the whims of the
majority, because there are more of them. Of course, you realize the
futility of this logic. i.e. If there are 2 of 'x' and that is more
than 1 of 'y', we should all be 'x'. But this country protects the
minority as well. Example: Mormons! A majority in Utah,
not America. Not upset. Just different view. Good day.
Dear Vanka. When you point your finger at other people you must understand
there are 3 pointing back at you. It takes two to socialize. It cannot be done
alone. I find it amazing that you live in Provo and continue to live there, when
you have such a low esteem of "everyone" around you. Chachi, it would be nice if others did the same thing. Find out what we
believe and who we are. Too much name calling without finding out the real
facts. Others claim we do not believe in Jesus Christ is hilarious. They have
made a statement without checking their facts.
I have always found Mormons to be like Baptists, and vice-versa. So much in
common; perhaps that is why they fight. I don't know.
who cares? we don't need their opinion to validate our beliefs. I hope they had
a favorable view , but it doesn't affect me in any way.
"When you point your finger at other people you must understand there are 3
pointing back at you."Well, if that isn't a rebuttall - nothing
is!"Others claim we do not believe in Jesus Christ is
hilarious. They have made a statement without checking their facts."Or you issued a knee-jerk response before checking yours. The claim that
Mormons "don't believe in Christ" is an outgrowth of the fundamental
distinction between the God-head, and the Holy Trinity. Understanding this
distinction, both parties would be better to rephrase the argument to say
"Mormons and traditional Christians have distinctly different beliefs as to
the nature and identity of Christ. Both groups share a general concensus on the
historical assertions on Christs ministry, as reported in the New Testament -
But they differ on the interpretations of his alleged identity as a distinct
personage from God the Father".
Mormons used to be pretty accepting, from my perspective, of being different and
apart. Now they seem to navel gaze and fret every nuance of what others say. I
figure it's because the rebranding of the church is designed to set it up as
absolutely mainstream, because that's where the political power is.
One of my favorite famous people quotes....Newsweek: Do you think a
Mormon is a Christian?Jimmy Carter: Yes, I do. I have a cousin who is a
Mormon and she married one of the Marriott family. I dont know anyone whos more
devout in their faith than she and her family. I admire them very much.
Gentile | 3:05 p.m. April 14, 2011 "I have always found Mormons to be
like Baptists, and vice-versa. So much in common; perhaps that is why they
fight."My Dad was raised Baptists I must say I agree with you. The
two biggest differences between him and I were that he believed the Godhead was
two distinct beings (Father and Son, Holly Ghost was Jesus as well) and that LDS
were permitted to dance.
C.S. Lewis, The Book of Mormon was equal to other human work that relied on
source text from the KJV.If Christianity was something we were
making up, of course we would make it easier. But it is not. We cannot compete,
in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions [JS]. How could we? We
are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has no facts to
bother about." The three personal God Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis
gives some other analogies of the Tri(3) Unity.
Just a sidenote, when to Mormons settled Utah, the area was still part of
Mexico. It changed a couple of years later.
So many people here in Utah hate Mormons. I wish the church would do more
reaching out and ecumenical work with the other faiths and non-faith oriented
organizations. A lot of people see it as a big bully, and I hope things can
Livingstone said, " I wish the church would do more reaching out and
ecumenical work with the other faiths and non-faith oriented
organizations"You need to get out the bubble that is Orem. The
church does this all over the world all the time. It appears that you don't know
about it.As for the rest, who cares what the knuckleheads like the
LDS bashers on here say about the gospel or church. There were
bashers in the beginning and I don't see that changing. The haters will hate and
we just need to correct or ignore them.It's interesting to see how
the exception becomes the rule for many LDS haters.To each their
own. The stone is still rolling and always will....
chachi - you are right on the money. It would be hard to find an organization
that is so paranoid about what others think of themselves - it's very amusing.
I believe it comes down to self validation at all levels - if others have
something good to say about the LDS faith then it becomes easier to have faith
- abeit blind faith in the church. But most LDS members don't understand this
concept. Until the majority of LDS members feel good "in their own
skin" and don't need confirmation through how others view the church then
articles akin to this one will pop up all of the time.Think about it
- why should one care about what "famous people" have said about the
LDS church? However, if an article is to be written about what famous people
have said it should at least contain both sides of the coin for it to be proper
journalism - but this would mitigate the "self validiation" agenda the
Dnews and LDS church need to promote.
Has anyone else noticed that most of this makes no sense?
JRJ, yes, I noticed that most of this makes no sense. But how could it, given
the beginning quote from Horace Greeley in the article:I do not
believe there was ever a religion whereof the great mass of the adherents were
not honest and sincere.Huh? I read this half a dozen times trying to
sort out the double negatives, and I still can't decide if he is saying the
great mass of us Mormons are dishonest and insincere or honest and sincere--or
maybe he is not even talking about Mormons, but just about religions in general
"You need to get out the bubble that is Orem. The church does this all over
the world all the time [reaching out]. It appears that you don't know about
it.As for the rest, who cares what the knuckleheads like the LDS
bashers on here say about the gospel or church."Hey, there you
go Uncle Charles, that's the kinda reaching out we're talking about.
Interesting comments from the readers. At first I was gong to refrain, but then
I decided to note one thing about us I've noticed. We want to be liked by the
world. We are insecure about ourselves in a way, an almost Sally Field
"You like me! You really like me!" I've seen this insecurity, this
need to be liked in so many ways over the years. I wonder why Mormons are like
What about what Mormons say about famous people??I for one have a
few things to say about Mark Twain etc
Ah, let's have a Mike Huckabee quote or two. It would serve to remind us of the
high regard he holds for the Mormon people and help him to get every vote he
deserves from Mormons.(Extract tongue from cheek)
I am certainly no person of notoriety, but when I was growing up in my town in
L.A. county, all the Mormons I personally knew, eventually peaked my curiosity
into investigating and joining the church.This was also due to the
collective integrity of each individual Latter Day Saint I came in contact
with.Ironically, the person who sparked my interest in reading the Book of
Mormon, was an extremely inactive and wild member of the church, who, (37 years
ago), openly admitted to me that he was "not the best Mormon in the
world", but that if I read the B of M, and really pray about it, I would
know it was the word of God. I read it and got my testimony very quickly, and
joined.That fellow was the best missionary, because he spoke out, in spite
of his admitted reputation as a "bad example". May we all get the
courage to speak out more often, to our neighbors and friends.P.S.,
This young man eventually repented and is doing just fine.
A previous quote stated, there is a difference between"gospel" and
"church". They are not interchangeable. I am Mormon and I had
associations with all kinds of mormons just like most of you. The gospel of
Jesus Christ is perfect and nothing else, not even the church organization or
it's members. I grew up in South America, the mormons are a tiny minority,
people are used to mingle with other religions on a daily basis. Then you come
to Utah and Mormons are the "Law of the land", quite disturbing. My
father and I can't talk politics because I am not republican (the 11 th
commandment). I like the quotes, just don't let it get to your head that we are
"all that". Some of us have a long way to go....
I hear LDS members distinguish between the truth of "the gospel" and
the fallibility of the Church organization and its people all the time.You think this is a good argument?This distinction means it is not
only possible, but preferable, to be loyal to "the gospel" rather
than, or even without, the Church and the people. In other words, it means being
a member of the Church - having one's name on the roles of the LDS congregations
- is meaningless.It means any "testimony" declaring
"the Church is true" is fundamentally misguided and false. It
ultimately means that the Baptists and Evangelicals are right.
nayajja`, perhaps context will help....Greely: Do I regard the
great body of these Mormons as knaves and hypocrites? Assuredly not. I DO NOT
BELEIVE THERE WAS EVER A RELIGION WHEREOF THE GREAT MASS OF THE ADHERENTS WERE
NOT HONEST AND SINCERE. Hypocrites and knaves there are in all sects; it is
quite possible that some of the magnates of the Mormon Church regard this
so-called religion (with all others) as a contrivance for the enslavement and
fleecing of the many, and the aggrandizement of the few; but I cannot believe
that a sect, so considerable and so vigorous as the Mormon, was ever founded in
conscious imposture, or built up on any other basis than that of earnest
conviction. If the projector and two or three of his chief confederates are
knaves, the great body of their followers were dupes. ============Google search on the short single sentence to find source and more of
his quote.I think he believes most Mormons are honest and sincere.
I think he does not believe we are dupes, thus our original leaders
are not knaves. Greely is pretty cryptic in his statements.
I think that Mormons are interested in media coverage about Mormons because of
our belief in preaching the gospel to all the world. Good media coverage can
help in that effort. If there are misconceptions or something erroneous in a
story, then it can hinder, and we need to try to correct or explain the
misconception.Also, someone said that in America Christians are the
majority, therefore Mormons are a minority. Mormons ARE Christians.
katt221: Also, someone said that in America Christians are the majority,
therefore Mormons are a minority. Mormons ARE Christians. ==========================May I add, that amongst the majority
Christians, we are one of largest (majority) Christian denominations after the
Catholics and one/two others.
"I wish the church would do more reaching out and ecumenical work with the
other faiths and non-faith oriented organizations."They do. But
just how far can you reach out before it starts looking like you're tooting your
own horn or trying to get your hands into everything? You reach out too much and
people start saying "The Mormons think they can run everything" or
"stay away from that organization, because the Mormons are their largest
"I hear LDS members distinguish between the truth of "the gospel"
and the fallibility of the Church organization and its people all the time.You think this is a good argument?"Yes, because you're
guaranteed to lose a debate over whether or not the church organization can be
fallible or not if you don't go that route.
Why is the LDS church and its members so worried about what others think of
them? I find it sad that so much emphasis is placed on looking good and
"spin" and tooting your own horn. Such an attitude from the church
leadership and its paper perpetuates within the membership a need to keep up
appearances which is something I thought that Jesus taught against when speaking
of the hypocrites in the Bible.
Reading these comments really make me laugh sometimes. So many naive people
making comments about what they think are 'absolutes' that generalize all of the
Latter-day Saints. You people that think you really know what those of us
'mormons' who truly believe, actually believe, have you actually read the book
of mormon? Actually have you even read the bible you claim to believe for that
matter? Those of us that actually really believe, seriously seek daily to learn
Gods will for us while we are here having this earthly experience. And you will
see us trying our best to serve others and make a difference. Unfortunately the
ones who are inactive and disbelieve have no idea what the church believes......
It is literally God's living Kingdom here on this earth.... If you don't
believe me that's fine, you have every right, but I say to those that actually
seek truth and recognize God as there ultimate provider for everything instead
of yourselves, read it, study it, find out what God is saying to you, and
telling you this life is for. and I know from experience you will learn from him
The Source of truth.
You must excuse us Latter-day Saints for having "an inflated sense of our
impact on the world". The prophetic charter of this Church is breathtaking
in its scope - to offer salvation not only to those living on the earth today,
if they wish, but to every soul that has ever or will ever live on earth. That's
a tall order, and we take it very seriously. Joseph Smith prophesied that the
Church "will fill all of North and South America - it will fill the whole
earth." The Church is the 4th largest denomination in America today. There
are nearly as many practicing Latter-day Saints in the world now as there are
Jews. That many people, sharing the same beliefs, can't help but have an
enormous effect on the world around them. You'd best get used to it.
It's interesting to read the comments of anti-Mormons pretending to be LDS here,
and being atheists elsewhere etc. I wonder why? ; )You just can't
trust those wolves in sheep clothing, but they're not really as judgemental as
they seem, are they??? : ) Oh, hey vanka, MormonCowboy, etc,
nice to see you here, if you see Otis could you let him know I used my 4
comments and will be posting next week. And thanks for agreeing, you
did agree right? A personal meeting would be nice (perhaps
somewhere with metal detectors ; ) just kidding, I'm sure you're not that bad.)
Are you really in Provo or do I have to fly to Australia? Canada? What? I'm out
of town in two weeks, but next week the public forum ("place") will be
Mike Ash, comments, time will hopefully be monday... no weapons ; ) Thanks for letting me pick time and place.luvya heaps, as always.
Was Jesus lds?
You'd expect the haters to come out of the wood work after reading this artical.
Talk about a soft ball to hit.... Having said that the haters opinion does not
make the church any less true, or my opinion of the church any more true. We ALL
have to come to the truth the same way. I believe that if the church is true
then the haters have a surprise coming in the next life, if it isn't then I do.
I'm willing to take my chances. In the meantime I'm going to live life the best
way I can.
JM:Since you have a few comments left here - why don't you please
explain your proposition. What are you trying to get us to agree to? What is
happening next week on Ash's articles that will be different from anything that
has happened on his previous posts? It appears like you are issuing some type of
challenge, but the nature of that challenge has so far alluded me. Admittedly,
you have piqued my curiosity - but I'm slightly dissappointed that you have
refused Vanka's request for a public debate. So as of right now, as I understand
it, come Monday Mike Ash will post an article (as usual), to which some debate
will occur between various parties (as usual), and most of the comments will
come from the usual commenters. Great idea JM! That sounds like a refreshingly
unique way to move the conversation!
Online poker scamdel is now national, international news - with good ol St
George stuck in the middle of it.Mitt Romney is mad!
@Johnson72Good question. Since LDS means Latter Day Saint I'd say
"yes" by some definitions, "no" by others. Jesus is
certainly sanctified, but typically we think of Saints as being sanctified BY
Jesus. @VankaCowboy, this is public, you've read the terms, and you
have to be fair and reasonable (no rejecting valid references etc), and agree to
stop criticizing LDS if I produce 25.... what are you afraid of? ; ) If you are so sure there is no evidence you will make your point. If
there is BoM evidence, or evidence that the Maya knew Christian symbolism,
temple symbolism etc, then you are diminishing your reputation by claiming they
didn't and you might as well find out now, so you can do the right thing and
stop attacking truth and others lives. I assure you that what you are doing
here on the DN, Trib, etc is harmful TO YOU. For thousands of years
people have understood that it's wrong to misinform to create discord and
darken. You can free yourself from this and, even if you can't return, you can
at least spend your time helping others instead of seeking to harm or mislead.
winwin : )
Johnson72 | 8:10 a.m. April 16, 2011 "Was Jesus lds?"No. Jesus was never baptized or confirmed into the LDS Church. He was
never ordained to the LDS priesthood, and was never a member of any LDS Elder's
Quorum or High Priest Group. He never had his endowments in the LDS Temple. He
was never sealed to a woman (or many women) in the LDS temple. He was never
called to serve in any position of the LDS Church, and was certainly never
sustained in any calling. Jesus' name does not appear in any of the membership
records of the LDS Church.Jesus was not only NOT a Mormon, but Jesus
wasn't even a Christian!
So as the sun sets over the City of Salt, with all of the comments being read, I
conclude that Mormons strive to be good, the women are supporting, and the
children know the difference between good and evil. The purport published by
the hardened pulp of the land, are filled with perfumed elucidation that wholly
prerogatives those that "ride in the whirlwind and directs the storm,"
by paradigm of their faith.
@Mormoncowboy: "Understanding this distinction, both parties would be
better to rephrase the argument to say "Mormons and traditional Christians
have distinctly different beliefs as to the nature and identity of
Christ."The question is, why is it that Christ Himself would be
so reticent about clarifying the distinction. We can assume that He is derelict
since there are so many views prevalent today. One can easily conclude that
it's not that important what humans thing about the Godhead, whether it be one
The Church Of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Lord Jesus Christs living
kingdom reestablished and set up and led by Him through a living prophet, called
by Him today. Believe it or not, it is your choice. But if anyone that seeks
Gods will other than their own, and seeks pure truth and light, and you are
willing to act on the desire to know the truth, you will come to know through
revelation through the Holy Ghost that this is in fact The very truth. Do not
tell me it is not, because I have indeed put in the effort and know. The
scriptures are before us, this life is a test of our faith so we can choose.
What will you choose, to follow the ideas of men, men who have done nothing of
themselves? Or do we seek light and truth from The source Christ Himself? The
Words of God are before us. Have you studied them, pondered, and prayed
concerning them? They are before us, we all have access to them, and you and I
when we stand before God to be judged for our lives will have no excuses!
The headline on the front page was shortened to say simply "What people
have said about the Mormons" and I was initially concerned, thinking of the
terrible lies and disgusting adjectives used by so many in so many publications
across the land. Thank goodness the article focused on the kind words of so
many people of high character. Thank you for printing this.
Nice article. However, I Would love to read what famous black people said about
the Mormons considering the Church's historically hurtful stance and assertions
of blacks being a cursed race. I have nothing wrong with a significant faction
of the Mormons but their history and the fact that some very uncomfortable views
against my race still exists in the "Book of Mormons" makes it almost
impossible for me to ever reconcile with that faith.
For active Mormons, friendship with non-members is almost always a verb. They
often treat us as missionary projects. It is insulting and objectifying. There
is no room for deep and mutually respectful relationships when one side always
has "potential convert" in the back of their thoughts. There simply is no room for the calm joy and peaceful satisfaction that comes
from deep, mutual respect for another person or for what he believes when you
start with the assumption that you have the Only True Religion. I wish more
Mormons would learn to stop being so obsessed with obedience and would start
proactively living their lives instead of reactively obeying the Brethren. I recommend Mormons read "Care of the Soul" by Thomas Moore.
In it, he distinguishes spirituality from soulfulness. Mormonism provides only
moderate nurturing for spirituality, and absolutely no nurturing for
soulfulness. Mormons tend not to be very soulful, because soulfulness is not
valued in Mormonism. Read the book, see the hole in your life. Surrender and
become better friends.
Interesting quotes.Not so much these posts. It's easy to generalize
and lump individuals together. It's easy for one to call someone else
"plastic" or "not real," yet at the same time consider
themselves "enlightened" or "genuine".Generalizing has lead to many debates, fights, and even wars. And while it's
easy to say "the majority of so-and-so are fake" or "they are
always (put your perjorative here)" it's much more difficult to develop a
relationship with someone else, respect and not denegrate their opposing view,
and treat them as individuals. Perhaps we can't say how another persons
"reality" is, unless we are willing to walk in their shoes. maybe then
we can appreciate what they have to offer or what we can offer them.
Well, since this article only seems to want to talk about nice things that nice
people have said about some of the nicer Mormons they've met, I'll add something
nice about the Mormons. "A lot of them aren't like Glen Beck at