Oh just watch. Mr. Killpack will save the day for Charter Schools of Utah. Let
it be known, it will be pretty obvious since he works for a company that runs
charter schools. Where is the transparency? All for ethics reform say, "Aye".
The eyes have it!
Another example of rewarding mediocrity and punishing success in the education
of our children. "A third of our schools, which are performing extremely
well, are going to get shut down." Administrators seem to fear the mass
exodus of excellent performing student to the charter schools.This
appears to be a unfair and vicious political strike from the enemies of charter
schools. This move is oblivious to the very harmful effect on children and
parents with little or no alternatives to poor performing traditional
schools.If the State Office of Education was unaware of the hardship the
current plan forecasted for charter schools, that is irresponsible at best. It
will be a major point of discussion as the board "refines" the proposal.How would any reasonable person expect charters to react to major cuts
positively, even after their success? Charters are not jumping to
conclusions.What a sour way to "begin a conversation".I am grateful Obama
is pro-charter school.
Where is the common sense? Charter schools are the one schools which are
responsive to parental input. If parents ask charters to improve math or reading
education they do it, they don't argue or point to studies which show why
learning times tables really isn't all that important.Legislature,
GET A CLUE ...We need more charter schools, not less.
I wish they would cut enought charter schools that they would all have to
close.Instead of spending more money on more different kinds of
schools they should be working to make publics schools better for all.Charter schools are just a way for rich parents to do what they want. They are
so use to being able to buy anything they want they can't learn to work with
everyone to build something better for all.Not one kid in any school
picked to be rich or poor and should not be punished by the rick parents for
being poor.Public schools have lots of problems, but it should be
everyones job to help fix them. Not just those that could not afford to run away
like the rich parents do with there kids.No charter school can ever
do what a public school can do for a kid.
Charter schools started out life already cut. They do a better job of teaching,
but with less money, they always have.Legislature, what kind of
common sense is this, are you really going to cut charter schools?
"Instead of spending more money on more different kinds of schools they should
be working to make publics schools better for all."________________In theory you are absolutely right. All schools should be quality
schools. Did you know however how stubborn administrations of school districts
can be when their teaching methods are substandard, and parents try to get them
to change?This is why charters are needed. In a charter school the
parents are the school board.If a new idea comes around where phonix
is no longer to be taught, a school district may adopt it and inspite of fierce
parental pressure, it will take years for them to change their ways. Charter
schools will do it in a matter of weeks, if the parents want legitimate
change.Likewise with the fad of not teaching kids to do arithmetic
or using calculators instead.I think the legislature is acting
foolishly if they get rid of charters, the one bright spot in our educational
Sooooo ... "no" to vouchers and now we're going to cut charter schools?
Brilliant, Utah. Just brilliant.
Back to vouchers... Privatizing education will have the effect of spreading the
performance gap perhaps even more than it is already spread in public
schools--some excellent private schools will be formed, and some poor private
schools formed. Still I'm in favor. Why?Because poor
teachers will be able to be cut, and poorly behaved students will be able to be
removed, the system as a whole will rise. Students and teachers who need a wake
up call, will get it. If we could redirect property taxes from a
local appropriation to a state appropriation, then the state could offer
significantly more than the $500 - 3000 voucher. Then cities can
appropriate only what they need, and the state can hand out what the public
schools need on a per pupil basis and can fund a voucher or tuition tax
credit.In the end, the choice, uniforms, religion, etc. in private
schools (who would hire many excellent public school teachers--and there are
many excellent public school teachers!) will make more of a difference in
helping students and families than the Godless public schools will that have to
walk on glass around the issues and morality that can help America.
It's about time the legislature appropriately fund public schools before they
continue to fund charter schools. Quit funding 2 separate programs -- focus on
making one better! I'm happy to see this.
If charter school can operate on less funding and do a much better job of
education our children, then why not adopt the charter school format for all
public schools. That just might fix the budget. Perhaps administrators
need to be looked at, I'm sure there are a lot of cuts that can be done in that
department. Utah ranks lowest in education spending anyway, so how low can we
Charter schools ARE public schools - public schools of choice administered at
the school level rather than the district level.
Do you really think the pet darling of the Utah legislature (not to mention a
cash cow for some legislators in the Charter building business) is going to be
scaled back? NO WAY!Relax people. It's only October. President
Obama, Arne Duncan and the 4.5 billion dollars they are putting into education
(Charters heavily favored) from the stimulus will save Utah Charters.
"Public schools have lots of problems, but it should be everyones job to help
fix them. Not just those that could not afford to run away like the rich parents
do with there kids."There is no tuition at a charter school, ANYONE
can run away (as they rightly should) from public schools. If charter schools
have such an advantage, as you are implying, why aren't you taking your children
there?If you don't like them, don't use them. The fact is they cost
LESS than public schools... for every student that goes to a charter, the taxing
school district for that student gets partial funding anyway. They net result
is that districts have an INCREASE in per pupil funding (overall) when a student
in their district goes to a charter school.Still hate charters?
How is it that charter schools can do it for less? Is there waste in the
If the people who can afford private school take their kids out of public
school. . .what do you have left? Vouchers are a bad idea. Want better
schools. . . make them better. Salt Lake City area wasts too much
money on different districts. The ENTIRE Salt Lake county should be one
district. With one comission. This would put almost a million dollars back
into the school system.Schools needs to take a stance & get ride of
the trouble makers. Educations is not a right. but a prilage. Schools are not
the baby sitters either. Instead of charter school, have special schools for
those that do not/will not do what they should be doing in the class rooms.
Move the "bad students" out & put them in different schools. Then pay the
teachers what they are worth. Don't do the work & you get left behind. No
student left behind means move them out when they should not. Government at
it's best. Can't get rid of them, promote them out.
The charter school where my children attend is a Title I school - meaning more
than half of our student body is economically disadvantaged. The majority of
our students come from families living near the poverty line. We are hardly a
school for "the rich."
I have never liked the idea of charter schools. Get rid of them all and stop
spending money building and maintaining all of these small buildings.
I keep hearing that Charter Schools do a better job for less.... Not true.
Check the achievement test scores. Charter schools are trying to catch up, but
so far their test scores are lower than traditional schools.To say
otherwise is the big lie of Charter Schools.
re: cut even more. Charter schools aren't for rich kids. They're for
every kid whose parents share common educational goals. They are public
schools--public schools on a shoestring budget. The charter school I work at is
awesome: awesome students, vision, goals, faculty, and curriculum. I am paid
less than I would be at a public high, I have fewer benefits, and I have to
commute over 40 miles each way for the privilege of working with some of the
most amazing people, along with their parents, in the state. Since our budget is
already thin, little cuts go much deeper comparatively. As far as the
socio-economic picture of my students go--I have students across the spectrum of
religion, race, and income: students eating peanut butter on homemade bread
every day, and students given ten dollars to eat at Carl's Jr. every day;
students from very large families, students who are only children, and students
from broken homes; students from different countries and students who have never
been out of Utah. Don't label them all rich kids. What do they have in common?
They each are taking responsibility for his/her own education.
Charter schools are a bad idea. We need to work on fixing our public schools
and stop funding charter schools. The charter school in our area have no
policies or procedures in place. They do what ever they want at families and
teachers' expense. They let go of highly qualified teachers and hired teachers
without a license just to save money. What kind of a school is that? What
happened to NCLB? Let's improve what we already have and do away with the
was when students would be held back if they didn’t pass their classes.
Students can do nothing but move onto the next grade is crazy to me. I know
about no child left behind which was good in theory but bad when it was put into
play. Public education is no better or worst then charter schools or private
schools. It depends on the teachers if they challenge their students. You get
more one on one with charter schools which is great but you have a lot less
classes offered to the students. Most of them try to run like a private school
with uniforms and their policies. Most focus on different things like Spanish,
theatre, math, or science. Anyone with a degree can teach at a private school.
You do not have to have a teaching license like you do in public schools. The
degree doesn’t make a teacher the hard work and dedication makes a good
teacher. The teaching profession has lost a lot of good teachers due to the
lack of pay while other jobs are now paying more.
I think what you are seeing is the end of charter schools. People don't want
them in the state. The teaching methods are radical at best and syphon off the
best and brightest students leaving the districts teaching all. Have you ever
seen a charter school with a special education curriculum? Is there any
inclusion in the classroom of those with moderate to severe developmental
disabilites? I wonder about the private charter school corporation that has the
structure for all these schools. Some of the comments here suggest it is a cash
cow for those administrators and that some of these people are part of the
legislature. I would sure like to know more about this. How much does these
administrator/owners make? Is their salary published online like the public
schools are? Our local charter has a brand new building that is tied into our
district. I've been opposed to it since the beginning. I question their
teaching methods and all I hear the students talk about is "self directed
learning". They seem to be studying whatever they please. Do they have to
follow the state curriculum? Pass tests? I'm concerned.
And so the fruitless debate goes on in another forum: education. The pretend
debate is about HOW MUCH government should intervene rather than WHETHER the
government should intervene. This is the nature of collective institutions:
all degrades to a frenzied clamor of who should get the loot rather than a
defense that every individual should keep what he earns.Here's a
concept, what if government got out of the education business and let the free
market handle it? What if parents and grandparents were free from property
taxes and what if parents had to plan and pay for their own children's education
rather than demanding that their neighbor be their biblical "keeper" and the
keeper of their children? What if an entrepreneur could start his own school
without worry about whether he'd be open next year due to a new tax on him or on
his clients or due to the elimination of some government handout?What if government just protected our rights and left us free to reap the
rewards and suffer the consequences of our own choices... even in education?Liberty. Neat concept.
When in life does it make sense to put money in a failing system? The vast
majority of parents idly stand by while the the traditional public schools drag
our children down the drag. Fear tactics, disinformation and the downplaying of
poor educational results for students is common. Powerful interests, partisan
politics and large egos are involved. Let's choose students over political
games and stop ignoring progressive alternatives to failure.
I find charter schools a great alternative to regular high school such as
Tuacahn in St. George when students have aspirations different from University
studies. Research does prove it takes 7 years to get a charter school where a
public starts because teachers do NOT have to have a current teaching license.
They have three years to get one. They also don't have to provide special
services. While parents have input in a charter school, I GUARANTEE parents have
voice in my school and my classroom. I don't why some parents feel they don't
have a voice. I got plenty of voice when the President of the United States was
addressing the school age children of America. So, I believe charter schools
have their place.
Remember a certain Supreme court case from the 1950's---one called "Brown vs.
the Board of Education"? One where it was supposed to be FOREVER decided that
"SEPARATE is NOT EQUAL"!!!The only thing "right" about the UT
Charter school law is that those who choose to "separate" choose to not be
equal. Charter schools are discriminatory to huge slots of people. Either they
segregate those supposed "trouble makers" some of you stereotype into a
"special" school, or they completely do not accept, nor provide appropriate
services to students who have disabilities. They either segregate students in
low SES areas, or minorities. The reality is that charters have been trying the
last 2 years to make their numbers look better, by trying to persuade
"minorities" to "choose" their schools. I live in a country where
everyone has the RIGHT to an education (it is a RIGHT---as declared in that case
stated above). We've fought for far too long and far too hard to "segregate"
again now! Charter schools are NOT more successful. The numbers DO NOT show
this! If parents are unhappy with their schools, then vote for new school
boards, and push for administrative change!
As a matter of fact, yes! Our charter school has a large special education
dept relative to school size. Last year, 1.5 special ed teachers, both certified
as highly qualified, two full-time aides, part-time speech language pathologist
and OT. This year, we have a full-time spec ed teacher, highly qualified
certification, three full-time aides, and part-time speech person. We have 30+
kids on special ed plans (IEPs) out of about 240 kids, all are mainstreamed,
including kids with autism, Aspergers, severe ADHD, etc. We have more spec ed
kids per capita than nearby schools, perhaps because parents have more say about
what happens and they know their kid will get a better education here than at
the regular public school due to the supportive atmosphere and more
opportunities for parent involvement. We get less $ from the stingy legislature
than regular public schools but fundraising helps us close the gap and then
some, allowing us to do some extras that don't happen at regular public school.
Before you knock all charters, find out the truth.
I've got my oldest in charter high school this year. He's both gifted with
learning disabilities, health problems and social issues (Asperger's). The
charter has been wonderful for him - small classes, he's made friends, the
teachers and the special ed. resource person have all bent over backwards to
accommodate his IEP. He's learning, he's happy, he's well able to handle both
the academic and social end of it. I hope and pray it's still there next year.
I don't want him falling through the cracks at the huge local high school.
It's not that it cost more in tuition, it's that it cost more in parent having
to pay for transportation. It also cost more in the fact that most parents that
are able to send there kids to charters can do it either because only one parent
works, or they make enough that they can still afford to have someone pick up or
take there kid to school every day.So yes it is mostly richer
parents. So stop trying to say it isn't, or show me why most of the students
would not be fee wiaver student as you have in public schools.Also
for every fee wiaver student they don't have is a student they can get hundreds
out off in fees. That the public schools can't.Again it comes down
to those with money and those without.And they just don't have the
some social aspects that a normal full public school does.
Repeat after me: charter schools are public schools.The charter
school I teach at was selected as one of America's Best High Schools in 2008 by
U.S. News and World Report. We were one of only 13 high schools in the state to
receive this honor. All of our teachers are licensed and most of us have
master's degrees in our teaching area--a requirement to teach concurrent
enrollment classes.We are also a PUBLIC school. We have a large
population of free and reduced lunch and ELL students, and we have a special
education teacher and students with IEPs just like any other public school.
As if having a teaching certificate guarantees a good education. Look at the
public school system for that answer.
Until the numbers are published about how many IEP, economic disadvantaged and
ELL students are in both school systems you cannot profess to say they are
public schools. They nothing more than private schools with selective enrollment
funded by public tax dollars.
Obliviously there are a lot of misinformed citizens on the issue of charter
schools.Fact 1 - Charter schools are more economically efficient
than public schools. If we've got money problems then we would be better off
with more charter schools and less public schools.Fact 2 - Charter
schools are publicly funded and statistically have many charter schools have
more minorities and low-income families than most public schools. Fact 3 - Some of the standardized testing scores are lower at charter schools
because some charter schools have exceptional special education programs and a
disproportionate number of special-needs kids compared to the local public
schools, an of course that does influence the school's scores.Fact 4
- Charter schools aren't taking anything away from the public schools. If they
don't have the student then why should they get the money? Charter schools have
helped to alleviate overcrowding in the public school system, and if they close
their doors we are going have even more problems in the public school system.
Have you worked in or have you had a child in a charter school? Each charter
school is different, but the one in which I work succeeds. Our test scores are
one of the highest in the state. We work with students with disabilities all
the time. I work with students every day who have IEPs and we work very hard as
teachers, administrators, and teacher assistants to make sure these children
have a great education. We do not segregate any students for any reason. We do
provide teaching areas that are required by student's educational plans that
provide them with the best opportunity for learning. No one should judge a
charter school without getting to know its charter and the teachers that work
there. Charter schools came about because of parents' frustration with the
system and districts that do not change their curriculum for the betterment of
the child. Any child is welcome in our school. We accept students on a lottery
system; charter schools must do this. Charters also save money because we do not
need to support huge district salaries. If you wonder if charter schools do it
better, go visit one.
The Charter school experiment was underfunded from the get go. There was never
enough money budgeted to adequately fund public schools let alone charters. Don't be crying now that charters have to endure the same budget cuts
that public schools have endured year after year. Funding for
education in Utah is a mess and charters are just another example of a
legislature that doesn't care about our children.
Most public schools do a fantastic job of educating their students. The problem
is less with the teachers than it is with the students. Teaching is the easy
part. Trying to get spoiled kids to put away their ipods and cellphones and pay
attention is the hard part. Those parents who take interest in their child's
education will find that both public and charter schools do well, not because of
the teachers necessarily, but because of the parents' involvement.
Public schools have the burden of taking EVERY student thrown at them, some of
whom may disrupt classes and cause problems for the teacher and the rest of the
students. When comparing student achievement of students with the same
socio-economic levels, studies show no difference between private, charter, and
I live out-of-state and had been considering a move to Utah for a job. Looks
like my children's current school system is head-and-shoulders better funded
than Utah's districts.
Once again the attack is on by the UEA to attack the most effective and cheapest
education system in Utah. Charter schools are not the choice of the rich only
and many low-middle income families are more interested in education than the
costly political structure dominating Utah's public education system.Charter schools are educating students more effectively and cheaper than the
public system riddled with corruption and waste at the highest levels. Education
funds are diverted by billions of dollars a year to fund private development and
investment rather than the class rooms where it is needed. That is where the per
pupil money is going.Then the public system is riddled with illegals
who pay no taxes yet they comprise 22% of the students in Utah. Teachers in
public schools are forced to teach propaganda rather than knowledge. The federal
level of government is dictating how and what is taught in schools in order to
get federal funds. And what the federal level dictates is propaganda in schools,
a mind control education system.
Dear "Disillusioned",There is no such thing as a "right to a good or
service". When you site the Supreme Court to identify a right to a good or a
service, education in this case, you reduce all rights to being things granted
by government. The only "rights" are derived from the inalienable ones: life,
liberty, the pursuit of happiness (including the ownership of property). With
these rights an individual is free to pursue education or not as they see fit.
They are not free to pursue it at their neighbor's expense. Yet this is the
very system we are in now. A system of grab-what-you can rather than earn what
you can.For any other readers who support government education but
despise government healthcare, are you like "disilusioned" and believe that
people have a RIGHT to education? If they do then surely you believe they have
a right to their health too, don't you? Or do you put education above health?
It is sad to read the comments here. Charter schools are public schools. They
accept all students and are paid for out of taxes just like the other schools.
The difference is that they have a board made up of parents of the children
rather than a school board that is half the county and unresponsive to the
children's needs. Maybe if there were more charter schools the comments here
would be written by people who were better informed.
If charter schools cost less and work better than public schools (as most
objective studies indicate, never mind what the NEA says) then common sense
would say that we should encourage more children to attend charter schools (save
money AND educate more effectively). Instead, our legislature is planning to
make cuts that will effectively kill off some of our charter schools and we will
end up having to pay MORE to put those children back in public schools. I hope
the legislature will see the error of their ways and find a better solution.
Just this story alone could havfe an impact on the State getting ANY Race to the
Top funds from the stimulus. Utah should be ashamed closing down what works and
leaving open what does not. Make a more sensical approach.
Wow looks like you have a little pride stuffed inside that mind of yours. News
flash to ALL ON THE MESSAGE BOARD, US SCHOOLS UNDERPERFORM on an international
level. So do we "fix" the problem by improving public schools or do we try
something different? I am all for trying something different and the
non-traditional approach of charter schools seems to provide better RESULTS. I am sorry that you are so caught up in your own self loathing and
hatred for the "rich" that you can't seem to figure that out. Another NEWS
FLASH FOR YOU, charter schools in my area, Kaysville, select students by
lottery. The lottery DOES NOT include my income. So how would they know who is
"rich?"Again I would love to "improve" public schools but since you
are the ONLY PERSON on here who is trying (laughter please) it looks like you
aren't getting the job done. I will elect to put in for a charter school and see
what happens, because I am so "rich" NOT!!!Some are blinded by their
own self pity, they refuse to acknowledge the true problem, looks like we have
one of those on here:)
The sheer number of grammatical errors in your comments lead me to believe that
perhaps you were not educated at a charter school like the one my children
attend. Here are some things to work on in the future:"enough" is
not spelled with a "t" at the end."public" is not spelled with an "s" at
the end."use" in this context should be followed with a "d"."rich"
should end with an "h", not a "k".When assigning ownership, it is
customary to provide an apostrophe before the "s", as in "everyone's".In
this context, the spelling should be "their", not "there".It appears
that your idea of what a "public school can do" might be somewhat limited,
because I don't think yours was very successful.Here's a question:
what do you think the districts will do with all those children currently
attending charter schools when they show up at their already overcrowded
classrooms? Charter schools are not only doing more with less, they are
providing relief for a public school system that cannot handle an unprecedented
level of growth in many areas.
stay away from Utah.. it's a freak show.. we pay for a private education - it is
really the only option in this state.
As a former public school UT special educator, I have SEEN Charters (and read
about Charters in research) blatently discriminate (and discriminate in hidden
ways) against those with significant disabilities. And SEGREGATE those with
disabilities. Mainstreaming is not a 'better" option. I've experienced the
charter school lie. Acceptance of students who ONLY have high level special
needs (learning disabilities, asperger's, etc.) "special" schools only designed
for "special" kids... None of it is research based. None of it is appropriate.
And then, months later, after parents have pulled their child with special needs
out of school, we would then get the student back in the non-charter school, 6
months more delayed because the supposed "better" educational "choice" actually
was horrible.The day that every charter school has to actually
accept EVERY child, provide free and reduced lunches, provide transportation to
EVERY child, will be the day they stop lying and actually follow the laws that
fund them! Until then, I think if parents can choose what public schools their
kids go to, than I want to choose what public schools my tax dollars fund!!!!!
P.S. Former charter school teachers agree with me!!
Everyone keeps saying that we need to fix public schools... I think that
everyone in the charter system agrees, that's why they ended up leaving.More money won't fix public schools, it's a problem in ideology. They
need to change the way they think and act by getting more in line with what
parents want instead of simply telling parents how it is going to be.How anyone could support a bureaucracy that is so wasteful and belligerent
amazes me. The school districts don't care what you think; you pay taxes to
them whether you like what they do or not. The changes that need to occur in
public schools have nothing to do with funding.
"Schools needs to take a stance & get ride of the trouble makers. Educations is
not a right. but a prilage. Schools are not the baby sitters either." "Government at it's best."Thank you for illustrating the value of
a public education. I think that your post, more than any other post here,
clearly demonstrates the need for a charter option.
How about the FACT that each Charter School student is receiving funding from
the District that they left? This is a little advertised law that passed last
Legislative Session. This was a way for the State, aka the Legislature, to say
that they were funding the Charter Schools at a much lower amount then the
District Schools, while requiring the Districts to make up part of the
difference. The law is HB 2 from the 2009 General Legislative Session. For my
school district this is costing almost $1 million dollars. Money that could
have been spent on our district children, but instead is sent to the various
Charter Schools to "equalize" funding. To those who are saying that
Charters are not hiring Certified Teachers: unless the teachers are doing an
Alternative to Licensure Program, they MUST be Certified in the subjects they
teach. If the teachers are not Certified, the Charter School is in breech of
their Charter Contract with the State Office of Education and in violation of
Utah State Law. This applies to classroom teachers-not to the classroom aides.
As far as what is "forced to be taught" in district schools, it is the same as
what is "forced to be taught" in charter schools. Both are PUBLIC SCHOOLS and
must follow the State Core Curriculum. The only differences is some of the
choices made in textbooks and programs used, both school systems must use State
Office of Education approved texts and programs.
Dear Ragnar, The Utah State Constitution guarantees K-12 education
to all Utah residents. Change the Utah State Constitution and then your logic
Just how are they going to decide which 18 charter schools will be closed?
Lowest performing on the CRT or U-PASS tests? Lowest enrollment? Highest
percentage of enrollment below capacity? Last ones opened, first ones closed?
Saturation of charter schools? Then what will be done with the
buildings? Who exactly will own them? The State? They were purchased/built
with State money. The Charter Founders? The Charter management companies?
This one seems most likely if the Legislature is left to the decision making.
OR is this just a scare tactic to make the charter school parents
and legislators take action against and punish further the district schools
instead of the charter schools? My money is on this scenario.
The real question is NOT which schools should get government funds. It is
whether there should be government funding of education at all!Let's
look at the system we've degenerated to: In the name of making every person
good, government steps in, forces money from citizens at the point of a gun
(don't believe me, think what would happen if you refused to pay your taxes),
and then selectively choses who gets and who doesn't get the stolen funds. Great
system!Unfortunately, we've degenerated to a point where most don't
even recognize freedom anymore--with its greater prosperity to both individuals
and society, Instead we clamor for a cheap counterfeit.Publicly
funded education--because it violates eternal principles of freedom--is doomed
to perform poorly. Get used to it.
My son in a charter high school. He has a fee wavier.We're not rich far from it.
My husband has been unemployed for 5 months. Our son goes to school at 7:00 am
and then we pick him up at 3:00pm drop him off at his work untill 7:30 pm five
days a week he does this. So rich no fee wavier yes hard work you bet. So you
can say what you want but as for your facts your wrong!
hopefully mountainville academy wiil be the first cut on the list. they are
My children were at a charter school and I was quite sickened by the horrible
education that they received. I observed in the classrooms and couldn't believe
how terrible the teachers were. Obviously there was a reason that I took my
children to the charter school to begin with.However, because I
could not afford private education for my children I had two options. I decided
on the district schools. I believe that even though some of the teachers should
retire because they are stuck in there methods of teaching, there are a lot of
teachers that are doing very well for students. I am very involved with who my
children get as teachers and having more choice in the districts is a better
option for our family. Having a choice between two horrible teachers at a grade
level at a charter school isn't much of a choice.
From a retired managers perspective it seems to me that if we have a shortage of
education dollars we should put more into what gives us the biggest bang for the
buck. From what I gather charters do as good, and maybe better, than
traditional public schools and charters operate on a smaller budget. With this
in mind, I would hold the rate on charters, decrease the amount going to
traditional public schools, and encourage more charters. This would educate
more students for less money. For the long term I would try and see what "works"
in charters and try to incorporate that into traditional public schools.
I was a teacher for many years and left because I was sick of seeing where my
money went. Instead of using charter schools why don't we quit paying for free
meals to illegal immigrants? Why don't we quit giving free education to illegal
immigrants? In my classroom I had anywhere from 8-15 illegal
immigrant students throughout the year. My class had a total of 32-35 kids. The
immigrants all got free breakfast and lunch. During breaks (year round school)
parents and older siblings got free breakfast and lunch. If we used the money to
improve existing education and quit paying for charter schools, illegal
immigrants, and overinflated administrator salaries, maybe we could provide top
notch education for our kids.
There is room for both charter and traditional schools in our system. There is
also misinformation about both types of schools. I know some charter schools
that have no direction, and the students suffer. One school, in particular, has
no rules nor structure for the students to follow, and when those children wind
up at regular public schools, they have a lot of ground to make up. They are
also lost on how to follow rules.
A major difference between the Liberals and the Conservatives is the belief in
what should be funded by the Govt through taxation and what should be paid for
privately. In the extreme, the Conservatives believe that nothing
is so important to society that it should be provided for all through taxation,
while the extreme Libs believe that virtually everything should be provided by
govt through taxation.Most of us believe that there are some things
that fall into that category...I believe that Education is at the
top of a very short list of things that are so important to society that we all
should help pay for it through taxation. A well educated society benefits all
of us.Charter schools represent a different model of public
education. So far, test scores overall suggest they aren't working as well as
we hoped, or as many claim. A few are very successful, most are only
modestly so, but they do provide an alternative choice.They are
certainly a better way of providing school choice that vouchers to support
Cut the 1/3 of charter schools that are performing below the regular schools on
standardized tests.It shouldn't be too hard to do. There are plenty
to choose from.Charters are just taking money from the real schools
anyway. Near me the locas school is sitting with 3 empty classrooms and the
charter school next door (almost) is sitting with just as many empty rooms.
Redundant services are wasting a LOT of tax money.
The charter school in our district has teachers unlicensed. They were also
reprimanded last year for not meeting special education needs. Someone also
asked for a student to be examined for special education services and the
special educaiton teacher refused to test the student. And if you are looking
to move to Utah to educate your children I would suggest not!
Hey things are getting better, it was about thirty comments before the great
satan (UEA) was brought into the discussion. It is time for open disclosure,
publish all charter school test scores, just like we do for the other "public"
schools. I would also like to see the enrollment numbers for charter schools on
the first day of class, and then see the enrollment numbers on the last day of
class. A typical complaint is that charter student enrollment is high in
August, and low at the end of the year. I would like to see actual statistics
to show if that is true or not. I have been reading the charter posts for the
last several years, and I have read many claims of greatness, but I have yet to
see anyone post a schools actual test score. Its great to think that charters
are the answer to all education problems, but where is the proof?
Oh and by the way some of may want to rethink your love of charter schools,
President Obama and Arnie Duncan his Secretary of Education are charter school
advocates, and you know that President Obama has not been right about anything.
I love this state, but if they choose to shoot down good education through
charter schools by the time my kids are ready for school, I'll just go somewhere
where they support good charter schools.
BTW - to those who blame bad teachers you need to look at the whole picture. Our
test scores in my class and other classes were extremely low. Parents blamed the
school for having bad teachers. Nobody cared to look at the fact that many of
our students who were illegal, would leave the country for two to three months
at a time then return. Those kids got absolutely no education while they were
gone, yet they still took the standardized tests with the kids that had been
there. This dragged the entire school's scores way below the national average.
The kids who were in school the entire time were the ones who performed
extremely well, but only the teachers got to see that because we knew the
kids.Charter schools just allow us to justify paying for different
education. Few, if any, illegal immigrants go to charters. This makes the
charters scores look better and the other public shools look worse. Why? Because
the other schools are left with the underperforming illegals, while the charters
get the kids who are there the whole year. This would be my only argument to
keep charters, but that is a poor reason.
You can view all Charter and District schools' test scores at the USOE website.
Test scores are available for all public schools from last school year. If the
school opened this year there will not be a test score until next
September/October. It is the AYP and CRT scores that are available. I have
compared the Charter School in the area against the District Schools in the area
and the District Schools have better scores on the test. I would
love to see enrollment figures for the Charter Schools. I know where to find
them for my District, but I am unable to find them for the Charter Schools in
so utah , biggest class rooms , losing good teachers and continuing the gouging
at all cost. well this will rise up and snap you back!
Public education accounts for roughly 50% of the entire Utah state budget. The
battle cry is more, more, more. There seems to be a fundamental belief in this
thread by 90% of the posters that more money will actually fix the problem. When
in the history of public education has this ever been the case? When in the
history of Utah public education has the desires of parents ever been foremost
in the minds of school boards and teachers unions? Public schools have been
turned into a babysitters club where wonderful teachers, laboring in the
trenches are charged with parenting first and teaching second. Why? The
government and the unions have placed these excellent teachers into a crippled
system from the get go. Where is the sanity in that? The cold hard truth is
unions only care about the union. Look at the past strikes, the defense of
horrible teachers, and perpetuation of indoctrination, and multiple Capitol Hill
tantrums as proof. Administrators are in permanent lawsuit prevention mode. Look
at the policies and parental interaction if you doubt that. Public schools are
broke and destitute. More money will not change that reality. More money? How
about more reality.
in the legislature won't let it happen. Morley and his ethical (sarcasm)
buddies make too much $ off of charter schools. A lot of these charter schools
are just cash cows for overflowing greed! If it does happen, it will be good
"Cut Even More" is obviously a charter troll purposely using grammatical errors
to provide proof of public ed's lack of performance. Taking the bait is
confirmation of an education void of common sense.
There appears to be an ubundance of know-it-alls who have posted their comments
on here. Are charter schools a good option? Yes. Can traditional public schools
be a good option? Yes. The key is to have the parents involved in their
children's lives. I've had my children at both a traditional public school and a
charter school. My children have performed better at the charter school and we
have loved it. I've been impressed with the enthusiasm the teachers have had.
Having said that, I think there are great teachers in traditional public
education also. Parents, don't waste your time arguing which option is better,
instead use your time and resources for your children. Turn off your T.V.'s.
Read with them. Study with them. Quiz them. Make it fun. Learning can and should
be fun. Good luck to all.
jim | 9:01 p.m. Oct. 12, 2009 Yes there is waste...it is called
It has been my experience that there are good and bad district scools and good
and bad charter schools. We explored the charter school option when our oldest
went almost an entire year without being taught math. The charter school option
has worked very well for us.
I enjoy reading the diatribe on both sides of charter school education. As we
all know, there are only so many education dollars in Utah to go around. Now
with the URS retirement system underfunded, some say by as much as $6.5 Billion,
how much new funding will there be for today's classroom, versus playing
catch-up on a defined benefit pension program for service already rendered?
There are 560,000+ students in the state. How much of the underfunded pension
plan is educator related? How much per student is that underfunding? Compare
that unfunded liability with the annual per student expenditure. We have a
problem. This is a problem that has to be recognized and dealt with soon.Charter Schools are an alternative. It is too early to tell how
effective or ineffective they will be as a whole. Individual PUBLIC charter
schools will vary widely in educating our children, just as the traditional
public schools do, even within the same district.I would hope our
Legislature will keep the needs of today's and tomorrow's students at the
forefront of their decision making process, while holding all educators
of education is out of step, look at the other countries who are successful,
then look at how are children are taught...duh , memorize and get the prize!
Kids sleeping through class...teachers don't bother to keep their attention.Kids ignoring the teachers and talking the entire class
period...disrupting the entire class.Any parent or child that CARES
about QUALITY of education would have NO CHOICE but a private or charter school.
The Regular state schools are unbelievably lacking.Kids take tests
whenever THEY decide. RE-takes all the time. What happened to a good education
in this state? Drugs. Disobedience. Lets take our schools back.
The kids that don't want to be there...out they go.Parents, you are
the first line of defence. Bring the regular schools up to par, or close them
and turn them all over to charter-type educators.Principals...DEMAND
respect, obedience and quality education. Get rid of teachers that don't
care...there are plenty!Bring on MORE CHARTER SCHOOLS. They
understand and perform. Unlike OREM HIGH and others.
To Anon @ 7:30Until 2008, when a student chose to leave the district
100% of the local tax dollars their parents pay stayed at the district where
they were no longer being educated.Now the district has to allow 25%
of the local tax dollars to follow the student while 75% stays at the
district!You do the math, 25% follows the student 75% stays at the
district where the student is no longer!Looks like charter schools
are the best thing to happen to districts!Disillusioned; charters
don't get to cream the best students, they have to use a LOTTERY, they have,
according to a state study, similar amounts of SPED kids as their district
counterparts and they DO NOT SEGREGATE them, MY child is in with the regular
classroom. Where he is doing well and thoroughly loves his teacher and friends.
Dear Anonymous,If rights are derived from Constitutions
and not from our nature, then man is free game for any despot, tyrant, dictator,
president, governor, or voice of any people who may write and alter any
constitution that suits them. Constitutions should be derived from inalienable
rights to ensure they're never violated. It's not the other way around. How's
that for logic?So again, there is no such thing as a right to
education... or healthcare.
Public Schools are biased against charter schools because they play by different
rules and they're wildly successful at it. My wife taught at both charter
schools and public schools. The charter system required teachers to earn their
paycheck (and bonuses) based on merit and student performance rather than tenure
and the instruction and students were far ahead of their public counterparts,
all on substantially less funding per student ($500 less per student according
to this article). I was educated at public school, but after seeing the
difference in the two systems I will have all my kids in charter schools.
Public schools can't stand the success of charter schools and so they lobby very
hard to shut them down. It's bizarre, but true. There's a built in bias
because the education administration in Utah was brought up under the public
school system. We need to break the stereotypes and lies the public schools put
forth. If there's a proposed cut why isn't it the same for charters as public
schools? Why do charter schools receive less per student? It's bias, but
charters will survive.
Charter Schools seem to be a middle ground between traditional public schools
and school vouchers. In dealing with a governmental funding shortage, perhaps
uniform performance guidelines need to be put into place and have Charter
Schools and Public Schools be judged on the same basis and instead allow each
school to be considered for closure instead of one or the other. Charter
Schools are a new school reform effort and has not been given sufficient time to
demonstrate the effectiveness of the concept. Now is the time to take a real
look, however, at what works and doesn't work. Poorer performing schools
regardless of whether its a Charter School or traditional public school may need
to be looked at for reorganization and restructuring or even closure. This is
about fairness and what works.
From the few details of the article, most administrators of the Charter Schools
are simply saying that the cuts will affect aides, playground supervisors and
other "extras" that Charter schools have in place. I'm married to a
Charter school teacher and have three sisters teaching in public districts. My
wife has an aide and my sisters do not. My wife calculated the amount of pay for
all the aides (each teacher has one aide) which equaled close to $190,000. The
cuts will eliminate some of the extras of many charter schools, but if the
Charters board includes a competent financial member (as most do) they will find
the way to stay open.This is not a doomsday scenario.
I'm no math professor, but can someone explain how cutting funding for charter
schools (which already operate on $500 less per student) thereby forcing some of
the charter schools out of business and pushing some of the students into the
more expensive per student public schools saves the state money? It seems to me
every student in a charter school is saving the State $500 a year. Forcing
charter schools out of business by trying to save $750 a year is like starving
the golden goose to death to save money on feed. I was educated in public
schools and after my experiences with Charter schools I'm a big believer in that
system. If nothing else, it's nice to have the choice in education and it costs
the state much less.
My kids used to attend school at public schools and there were some benefits
they no longer enjoy (such as a bus system and field trips), but it's worth it
to me to drive my kids to school every other day (neighborhood carpool system)
to keep them in a charter school. I'm not sure why the funding works the way it
does, but I can say my kids are perfoming much better and enjoy learning more in
the charter school system. I can't speak for all of them, but my experience has
been positive, for what that's worth.
Wildly Successful? I keep hearing that, but the data doesn't agree. According
to the data on the USOE Web-site, most Charter Schools are a little behind is
academic achievement.Don't make the "wildly successful" Claim unless
you can support it with the data. A handful are very successful,
most are not.
I've been a teacher for over thirty years. I can see what's going on. Much of
a teachers time is wasted trying to get students to do work and not misbehave.
Most of the time teachers take the blame for not managing students correctly,
but many students don't use their school time properly. Teachers and schools
are not parents! It's not always the teachers fault that respectful behavior
wasn't taught at home. As a result, many responsible parents place their
children into charter schools attempting to gain the best possible education for
their children. Can you blame them? It has nothing to do with money and wealth.
If you place teachers from a charter school into a regular school, they'll have
the same teaching struggles. Finding students who don't want to work, are bored,
and finding mischief.
Have you ever tried to make your school netter? Come on! Really? They don't
want to be better, they want to teach to the middle of the curve student. They
don't want to change and they don't listen to outsiders aka parents. I find it
very rare that any teacher doesn't think they know more about education than
parents. I am smart I have a degree in science. I have home schooled and sent
my children normal public schools and also to charter schools. They best
schooling my kids had was when I oversaw their education. The second best was
the charter schools. I have even spoken directly with a governor about
education especially for talented and gifted kids and was told our schools are
good enough. I have been a mother for 23 years and I am certainly not stupid
about the attitudes of the teachers, the principles, the school districts and
even the elected officials. They think more about money and effort. Than they
do about education.
Religious organizations should not be supported by the government and we should
maintain a seperation of church & state.From my perspective, all
this talk about "Parent Choice" etc., is just a way promote a particular
religious belief and conservative ideology into the minds of children.As long as my tax dollars are not used to promote religion or political
ideology, fine. But if you can't support your own "Agenda Driven" schools, then
its time to pony up the bucks, and not demand that the public pays for
additional schools that will cater to someone's personal agenda.
When my daughter switched to a Charter school, we were all very excited. After
only a few months, it became obvious we had made a huge mistake. We returned to
a traditional school, and our other children will not attend Charter schools.
They lack resources. They lack qualified teachers. They lack facilities. They
claim to be "more efficient" than traditional public schools, but they are just
more impoverished. I wish them all the luck in the world. In theory, they are a
good idea. In reality, they don't even come close to living up to their
Charter schools have more incentive to improve and respond to parents. If they
don't parents will pull their kids out and the school will receive a negative
reputation leading to low enrollment and eventual closure. Public schools do
not have that incentive. They can continue on unresponsive to parents and
student's educational needs and never face any consequences. The district will
not close the school. There will always be plenty of students to keep the
school open unless it's in an aging area (even then districts often keep schools
open when enrollment drops too low to be economically feasible.) We cannot weed
out underperforming public schools or poor teachers. They are entrenched in a
system that protects them. Our whole system would be better if run like the
charter school system. Good charter schools have waiting lists while bad ones
face closure due to low enrollment.
There is something fundamentally wrong with public schools when kids are fleeing
them by the thousands and turning to a place where they can actually learn
something besides Black History Week, anti-American sentiments, anti-Columbus
tripe in October, and Obama rah rah indoctrination.
Disillusioned nailed it. Charter schools do not play on a level playing field
and still on average do worse that public schools. Doing more with less is a
play on numbers. Most Charter schools don't take special needs students (some
do). They are far and a way the most expensive students in the school systems.
The fact that most charter schools aren't doing any better than public schools
is a complete joke. People who take kids to Charter schools put up with the
inconvenience because they care about their childs education. This leaves the
public schoold with all of the kids whose parents don't care mixed with some who
do and yet they still perform as well as Charters.
As for the poster whose Charter has spec ed. Having 1.5 teachers with 2 full
time aids and a half time speach is not efficient. The school in my area has 34
spec ed students not all are mainstreamed because of major behavior issues.
There is 1 spec ed teacher and 2 full times aids 1 one which is assinged to 1
student. The average scores for those students when up 6%. An incredible number
for spec ed students. Charters DO NOT DO BETTER OR MORE with less. Comparing
apples to apples proves this to be a lie every time. Thanks for playing though.
Charter schools are an experiment that has gone horribly wrong.It is
time to stop the bleeding and return to what was working. Stop making me pay
for the real school AND the charter school. All the charters did was double the
amount of money needed for overhead. Too many empty classrooms at the schools,
charter and real, is a big waste of money.If the legislators weren't
making money off the charters, we wouldn't have them.
Ragnar, where did you magically appear from all of a sudden? Your comments are
brilliant and right on the money. You have an ally in me any time you need
it.Kudos to whatever school you attended.
that charter schools and public schools were funded from different funds, thus
increasing the overall education budget, and reducing strain on public schools
both in space and finances. But now, the legislature cut the funding that was
earmarked for charter schools and decided that the public schools should make up
the difference from the remaining money in their budgets which have also faced
severe cuts in these economic times.When the legislature first
started charter schools they said the money would never come from funds
appropriated to the regular school districts. Now they've changed their minds
and have hurt all school children at regular and charter public schools.If you are for or against charter schools, you should remove the elected
officials responsible for this fiasco as well as the district split legislation
that has also cost the local districts a bundle.
Anonymous | 11:43 a.mYour comment shows that you do not understand
how charter school funding works. You are not paying any more because of
charter schools, but your property taxes could go up if all charter school kids
have to be absorbed back into the public schools they came from. Theory vs. Reality Just because the charter school your child
attended didn't meet her needs, doesn't mean it wasn't good for someone else,
just like a public school may meet the needs of most children while some
children fall between the cracks. Charter schools are not all the same any more
than public schools are. If they do a poor job they will lose their charter and
funding due to low enrollment. If they do an excellent job they will have
waiting lists and enough enrollment to keep their funding.
Ragnar,There are no "inalienable rights". Life, liberty, and
property (and even, depending on your definition, the pursuit of happiness) can
all be taken away by a government that is willing to do so. In fact, of the
three (or four), the only "inalienable right" that a government must grant most
of the time is life (if you kill all or most of your subjects, then you aren't
left with much of a country to govern--even Stalin only liquidated
minorities).You hint at the right questions. Should the government
be involved in education? Should public money (tax dollars) be used to fund
education? The problem is that you answer the questions with useless
philosophical rhetoric. If you really want to address the questions, then
determine whether it is worthwhile to have a minimum educational standard in our
country as opposed to only an educated upper class (as you apparently endorse).
Would our current society, including our level of technological accomplishment,
be possible without educated masses?If you want to get into a
constitutional debate, then don't get into the trap of equating "government"
with "federal government”. States are free to provide public schooling in
And in 2008, the Legislature reduced their direct funding of Charter Schools by
that 25%. The Legislature failed to fund the District Schools by an additional
25% to cover that which they are now requiring Districts to send to Charter
Schools. In addition, my neighbors, my parents, and some of my
siblings pay property taxes to the school district and have no children in the
K-12 age group.I don't mind funding the Charter Schools, but the
argument about less money is a red herring. The Charter Schools were/are sold
to the Legislature and USOE as a way to educate at a lower cost. Charters do
not offer busing, so they do not get transportation dollars this equals less
funding. Charters do not offer a wide variety of classes, hence less teachers
and less spent. Charters tend to hire teachers straight out of college and tend
to not have them longer then 5 years, also less spent. I do mind
having to fund Charter Schools at the expense of the Districts. Change the
funding model back to pre-2008.
Get over the arguments. There are good charter schools and there are good
public schools. Look at the options and decide what works for you and your
family. But really? You can't lump all charters and all public schools
together and assume that because one does well (or not) they all do. I'm a
public school teacher and have seen good and bad charter schools and good and
bad public schools. Parents have a voice in both-in public schools there is
accountability beyond what parents want. And charter schools doing more with
less? I have friends who provide their own transportation and school supplies
for charter schools. Not necessarily more with less, but more with less public
I keep hearing people propogate the myth that it would be cheaper not to pay for
charter schools AND public schools, as if the two costs are duplicative. That's
like saying it would be cheaper not to have to fund Elementary Schools, Jr.
Highs and Highschools so we should have K-12 all in one school. While there
might be some modest savings in reduced administration costs, you still have to
pay for the schooling on a per student basis regardless of how you package it.
Charter schools are just a different (and cheaper) option. The cost savings
argument is nonsensical and contrary to the facts, and yet I see it over and
over in the posts on this board.
My experience with charter schools has been exceptionally positive, especially
in terms of test scores on uniform testing, but I can't speak for all charter
schools in Utah. I haven't compared test scores of charter schools to public
schools(except for the one charter school I've looked into for my children).
Although, one thing I'm having a hard time with is why we should eliminate
parent's choices if the charter option doesn't cost more, test scores
notwithstanding. I like the fact that I can research a schools testing scores,
charter and teaching philosophy and make a choice, whether it's public or
charter. I think it would be a major step backwards if the Utah legislature
significantly reduced charter school funding.
They are an extraneous frill that we can live without. They are not better than
regular public schools; they just make parents "feel" better. Get rid of this
In case you didn't get the memo, we are having a recession and we need to cut
out the fluff. We can live without charter schools. They are a distraction and
they actually do very little to help education. Times are tough. Suck it up.
I like the charter idea and I think most have done well. Let's hold public
schools to the same rules and funding that we use for the charters. Let's start
by eliminating free transportation. When we do this we'll eliminate the need for
rigid school boundaries which make staffing the schools so very difficult. All
schools can set class size at 25 or less. Loosen the regs as you do for charters
and we can all compete fairly. Everyone wins!
I hate driving my kids to charter school, but I love the APA charter school. My
daughter had trouble reading and the elementary school wanted to put her in
special ed classes. We moved her to APA and in a short time she was reading at
her grade level and has done great every since. My children are getting a better
education at APA. The elementary school near my house is overflowing. They had
to bring in portable classrooms this year to handle all the students. Please do
not cut funding for charter schools.
Nobody is forced to go to district schools. Charter Schools should be done away
with and for those who want private schooling should pay the price and send
If charter schools are "real public schools" then why shouldn't they face the
same threat of school closures that districts have had to deal with in times of
economic hardship. Why should charters deserve special treatment? If there's not
the money to keep them open then they can face closure just as traditional
neighborhood schools have. I didn't see any charter school folks crying when
neighborhood schools were closed in Granite and Jordan School Districts.
I have never understood why charter schools receive less dollars per pupil than
other public schools. It would seem, the State School Board has a bias against
charter schools. In my opinion, the only logical choice is that ALL public
schools (district and charter) should receive the exact same dollars per pupil.
Charter schools are already disadvantaged for receiving $500 less than other
public schools. There is a reason why parents are opting for charter schools.
Better curriculum and increased parental involvement are usually the reasons
most join charter schools. I would think the State School Board would be
concerned for all children in public schools equally. Equal dollars per pupil
for all children in public schools is the only solution that makes sense.
Charters ARE wildly successful! Test scores are not everything! But, I
have looked at the data, most charters are on par with or outperform their
district counterpart. Very few do not. Anyone can look at the USOE website.Charters provide choice:(different curriculum above and beyond the state
core) like:-Core Knowledge-literature based curriculum-schools
for drop outs-schools for students with autism-schools for refugee
families-project based learning-music/art based learning-performance based learning-IB-Montessori-"Green" schools-service based learning-Dual Immersion-children in poverty-deaf students .....I could go onBTW students in Utah are
funded on a per pupil basis, charters do NOT take money from the district. Parents take students from the district!When a student leaves the
district only 25% of the "local tax dollars" follow the student to the charter.
75% stays at the district school, districts win when charters open in their
The amount of ignorance showing in these comments is mindboggling! I'll see if
I can clear it up:1. Charter schools are NOT the same as private
schools!2. Charter schools are public schools in that they receive public
funding, but are run by private entities who have received a state approved
charter and are subject to state standards.3. Funding of charter schools
does not take away from school district funds. In fact, the district keeps part
of the funding for the child who changes to a charter school and can use those
funds to benefit the remaining children.4. Charter schools are not
religious schools. 5. If charter school enrollment goes down they lose
funding and may face closure. If they do not do a good job of educating their
students and responding to parental concerns their enrollment will go down and
they may lose their charter. If they do a good job their enrollment goes up and
they have waiting lists.6. Charter schools are required to use a lottery
system for enrollment, so they cannot choose only exceptional students or those
Why all the doom and gloom? This isn't a bad thing. Isn't this the
"innovation" and educational reform we have been waiting for? Yes,
please close down underperforming and downright horrible Charters. They are a
waste of educational dollars. All of these years down the road, Charters are no
longer an "experiment" and need to put up the numbers or close. Since they have
set themselves up from day one as the beacon of all that is right and good in
education, let them be "innovative" enough to set the example. And, don't tell
me that ALL Charters are superior. Some are, some are NOT. Charters were
promoted on the platform of superior performance for less money. Get on with
it!!!Next (or at the same time) please close down underperforming
and downright horrible traditional public schools. They have had years to get
things right and, if they haven't figured things out by now, they need to be
closed.Listen to Secretary of Education Arne Duncan sometime. He is
calling for exactly what I have posted above. All schools that drink from the
taxpayer trough need to be amazing or they need to be gone.
Education needs more funding PERIOD! Why don't we stop giving
exemptions for popping out children? If you have 3 children you pay for 3
children if you have 10 children you pay for 10.
re: Talk is Cheap; You are wrong, charter schools have the same IEP/Low SES/ELL
students per capita as the regular districts. It is posted on the USOE website
UPASS reporting for every school in the state---get your facts right.
I love how many of the close charter arguments seem to be written by the same
person over and over. Notice how they have the same cadence for the most part?
That is a fingerprint of sort in writing which we educators call voice. This article should never have made it to press because the information
had changed so much before printing that it has become wildly inaccurate. It was
news for about an hour. Budget numbers that came out the same day showed much
better prospects for next year's budget.Charters are for the most
part non-frill education for a reduced cost than what would be used up at the
local school. We stick to the basics and do them exceptionally well because
students are taught on their ability level. It is something all public schools
once did, but has been abandoned for all the newest approaches like
Investigations math that Districts jump on. It is ironic that the innovation
Charters have provided is the return to fundamental education principles. That
is what has happened and one reason Charters are so wildly popular in Utah.
1. Charter schools are PUBLIC schools. No tuition and they take any student who
applies until the capacity of the school is met.2. Charter schools
must test same as the district run schools. Same program.3. Charter
schools must have licensed teachers just like the district run schools.4. Charter schools CAN'T raise taxes like district schools and rely on the
legislature for funding, just like the district schools.5. Charter
school can teach for less, can require uniforms and other things that are "not
available" to the district schools.6. Hardly a school for the
"rich". Our charter school has students from Sandy, Draper, West Jordan, West
Valley, Taylorsville, Kearns and Magna.7. Charters must take
disadvantaged students if they apply and cannot discriminate.8.
Charter schools are just like district schools but run by parents who care about
the education of their child with state oversight. Should a Charter school mess
up, they can lose their charter, district schools can't be closed due to the
lack of educating students.9. Charter schools win in my book and the
students test better. See our IOWA scores at the state website.
Charter Schools are a Vital Part of Public Education. Charter Schools are geared
to the needs of the students.In Hawaii Charter Schools are vital, if
you want to avoid the Expectation of No Expectation. The High School
that my Grandason would go to sends 30% of the Grads to College.My
Grandsons Charter School sends 90% and many take College Courses while still in
High School. Many are Professional Kids Sufers, Models, Music, etc
or their parents are Professionals, and the family is on the road alot.Most of My Grandsons Work is completed on his laptop, and EMailed in to the
School. He attends live classes on the Internet and can take an active part. He
can get help online from UH Students or go into the Campus and get help. His
Math Teacher Teaches from Maui. The 660+ Students may be in any part of the
World at any time.We where able to get him in because we applied
early and the Local High School was more then Happy to grant us permission. He Gets Socialization at Church and Scouts and is in a very active High
School Drama Club.Utah Charter Schools will be fine.
I was slow to come on Board for Charter Schools. I saw them as far
to yuppie and far to Tidy and Whitey, Except in Hawaii, I saw them as a last
ditch effort for White Flight.However I discovered with my kids that
one size does not fit all, and public education can sometimes fit almost
none.When my Grandson came to stay me Wife and I explored it as we
knew some LDS Kids that went to Charter School and did just fine. 1 is on his
Mission, and the Girl is at BYUH Studying somthing I can't spell.Charter Schools are a part and a vital part of the overall system. In Hawaii laws make the High Schools accept Charter School kids for Sports and
othe stuff. My Grandsons Charter School had enough people for a Football Team
but they where all playing for other Schools 2 on Maui and 1 on the Bis Island.
The others live all over Ohau. I am not a fan of home schooling. The
Mission is to Narrow and it can be used to cover up things that should not be
covered up.Socialization is Vital to personal growth.
You are correct on every point, EXCEPT #3. Charter Schools are taking money
from Districts starting with the 2009-10 school year.HB 2 from the
2009 Legislative Session mandates that school districts pass on no more then 25%
of their local taxing per student to the Charter Schools. Go look it up it is a
complicated method to determine the exact amount of money the Districts have to
send to the Charters. The catch is that the Legislature did not raise the
funding to the Districts to cover this expense. So, yes the Charters are taking
money from the Districts.Here is the MYTH that Charter Schools
proponents are spreading about funding. Districts do NOT receive any money for
any student not enrolled in the District Schools. If your child attends a
Charter School the WPU money for your child goes to the Charter School. The
State does not give WPU money to the Charters for transportation or lunch or
similar programs that the Charter Schools do not offer, hence "less funding".
The Districts still have the power to tax. That is where districts have a
distinct funding advantage. However it is the Charters, who have less funding
that are at minimum providing an adequate education equal to or greater than the
more expensive District schools. The wise thing to do is to see why charters
can do so much more with so much less, and see if we can get the right people in
charge of the Districts to do something with all the wasted money.
My kids just got in this year. It has been the best year so far for my kids. I
hope parents don't take this lying down as I know I won't.
Charter schools are not better than traditional public schools, only different.
Each child is unique, and our educational system should have as many options as
possible to allow each child to find the best fit for their abilities and
interests.Approximately 5% of the students in grades K-12 now attend
charter schools, and approximately 15% attend charter schools in my school
district (Alpine). One of the primary reasons many people are choosing charter
schools in my neighborhood is due to the "Investigations Math" that is used by
Alpine School District that some people believe is good, and others believe is
terrible. Utah has been a very homogeneous culture since the
pioneers arrived in 1847. That has already changed in Salt Lake County, and is
starting to change in Utah County. We won't all go to the same church, or the
same school. We will instead have many people with different value systems, and
different approaches to learning. I think we'll all be better off because of
it. Note that only 5% of Utah's children are in charter schools, 7% in
Colorado, 9% in Arizona, and 40% in Washington DC.
Alpine District stopped using Investigations Math 2 years ago. Each school had
an open house and parents were invited to look at the approved text books and
help decide what would be used in each school. The School Community Councils
made the final decisions. Each school was able to choose and the parents were
key to making the decision. Please stop spreading the rumor that
Alpine District is still using Investigations.Also, my Alpine
District School and the other three Alpine District Schools in the area have
better Math and Language Arts scores on the State tests then either of the
Charter Schools in the same area.
Charter schools ARE public schools. As a licensed, dual-certified
teacher with an advanced degree and lots of experience (in both 'public',
private and charter schools) I can tell you that charter schools fill a need for
parents who want to be involved, for students who struggle in traditional public
schools and for teachers who want freedom to teach at the top of their game.I would never consider teaching anywhere else. Unless of course, you
close my charter school and force me back into 'public' education where I am
just one among the masses.
The nice thing about private education is it is very affordable in Utah when
compared to other locations. We use this option too. If we couldn't afford it,
we'd go to a charter school. The problem with public education in Utah is
mediocrity is embraced with "look how great our system is with so little money
spent!" Yeah, it's mediocre at best. The song and dance we get is just that -
a song and dance.
The most important factor in a students life is support out of the classroom,no
matter what kind of school. If there is no help,support or expectations at home
how can anyone expect success? It boggles my mind that schools and teachers get
all the blame for the failings of public education. I dare every parent to go to
school with their child for one day. The social and behavior battles the
teachers face daily eat up too much teaching time.
" Disillusioned | 7:19 a.m. Oct. 13, 2009As a former public school UT
special educator,"Thankfully this person is a former educator. He
or she should apologize to all those children he or she left behind.Charter schools obey the laws. The state conducts the lottery, and the
schools accept kids in order that they are listed, meaning your either
misinformed or a flat out liar. The only claim you had against Charters that had
accuracy to it was providing transportation. All the other things you said were
wildly inaccurate. It is no wonder you are a former public educator.
We live in a free country. If parents can band together, using their public
money (taxes) and volunteering their time to come up with a great educational
model, why in the heck is that so offensive to so many on this board? Because
they can't get in? Because they can't drive their kids? Because there is more
work involved, and so they'd rather pass the buck to an over-paid school board
than to a group of involved, caring parents?Nuts, I tell you. A well-run charter school is head and shoulders above a "regular" public
school. Parents make the rules, help enforce the rules and more teaching is able
to occur because of it. There is more respect among students and teachers, and
everyone rises to a higher standard. There will NEVER be equality for everyone
in every single situation, but anyone--ANYONE can be involved in a charter
school if they'd like to put a little elbow grease and a bit of time into their
child's education.The state would be crazy to underfund these
schools. Keep charters...and open more!
"So, yes the Charters are taking money from the Districts."You only
go it 25% right...When a student leaves a district school and goes
to a charter, 25% of the local taxes their parents pay follows the student to
the charter...True.Where you got it wrong is... 75% of the local
taxespaid by a charter students parent, stays at the district!The
state then gives $1427 per pupil to the charter school. Approximately $500 less
than the district students.Check it out, the district makes money
when a charter student leaves...really!
different ways. The state legislature can not continue to fund charter schools
one way and district schools another. It has always been unfair to the district
schools. They have always received less money because legislators are heavily
involved in owning and running charter schools. There truth is out.
Here is my problem with the School Districts reimbursing the Charter Schools.
School Districts have the taxing authority and have to hold truth in taxation
meetings every time they want to raise taxes. The School Districts have to
provide every house in their districts a yearly accounting of where the money is
spent. This usually comes in the mail and includes pie graphs. Charter Schools are now getting School District tax money, they should be
required to mail a yearly accounting of how their money is spent to every house
in all the School Districts that they are receiving money from.
@Quit funding schools two ... | 4:21 p.m. Oct. 16, 2009I
wholeheartedly agree. Charter schools should be funded the same level as
District schools. Could you imagine what such an increase in funding to charter
schools would have then? Hopefully statewide equalization will include more
resources to Charter schools to bring them closer to the same level of funding
as the Districts.What you fail to understand is how wasteful our
District schools spending is. Compare the two systems. You will see the
Districts have more money yet less ability to meet individual student's needs
because they burn so much on administration or cheap frills instead of
instructors and teachers. That is a clear indication of an incredibly wasteful
District system, and a rallying cry for all Charter schools.
Charter schools turn out students whose education is on par or better than
regular public schools and the do it for less cost.Let's have all
the regular public schools changed over to the charter school format. That will
save tons of money!
i have 3 siblings that have been taught at 3 different high schools. all three
of them are very successfull. i am at a charter school and love it. charters
are an option that work for some and dont for others. i love them my siblings
might not have. both serve a purpose and are a good option.
I teach at a charter school because I was unable to find a position at a
district school. I can not say which type of school is better for all children
or for society. I only know that I love my charter school and I love my job. I
admit that charter schools probably do not have to deal with all the problems of
a district school, that we use taxes that might have gone to a district school,
and that we sometimes give preference to relatives. The problem is that district
schools have too much adminstration, too many scandals, and too much violence.
That is why charter schools are popular. Both systems have there positives and
We put our youngest son in a new charter school this year. He was struggling to
no avail at our neighborhood Jr. High. It is now the end of the first term and
he is enjoying school again,he is learning and feeling good about himself. I
can not believe the change. The math program is fabulous. He is "getting it".
This charter school has been an answer to a prayer!! If this charter school
closes, there is NO WAY I will send my son back to our neighborhood Jr. High.
Competition breeds excellence. It's time for the traditional schools to get a
little competition. By the way, parents volunteer a minimum of 30 hours each
school year. I helped get an after school band program going. I love being
truly involved in my son's education.