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Gay Mormons seek to be LDS on own terms

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  • DB
    Sept. 19, 2009 6:57 p.m.

    This article is amazing. Be Mormon on your own terms. How about obey the commandments of God, on your own terms. How about the bible which says man shall not lie with man. Should have said on your own terms.

    This is not just a Mormon principal. This principal is across Christian faith. Then again as people find things they do not want to live with they, do it on their own terms.

    These people don't listen to the information given out from the LDS Chruch. We love all people regardless of who or what they are!!! People are given free agency to make decisions on their own and make those choices they determine they should. When those decisions go against the principals of God, they may not receive the full blessing of God but will still be loved. No one expects you to blindly follow the churchs teachings. You must think and follow according to the spirit of relevation.

    If you are engaged in activities that are not in the teachings of the LDS church, you will still be loved and accepted, just not able to enjoy full fellowship until you are will to obey Gods commandments

  • J. Pilcher
    Sept. 19, 2009 6:57 p.m.

    Homosexuals and Heterosexuals have their rights to choose what they want to do and say. But to just follow what one's heart leads them to do?
    Im not a believer in what Gays do, but what they do in their own time is theirs.
    I am a believer in Mormonism, and what we do in our own time is ours. The LDS church does not hate or shun those members whose feelings are confused by gender, rather the members are not all perfect and will do and say things hurtful and wrong. The LDS church like all other churches in the world is full of imperfect people. We need to understand that, and quickly.
    The church leaders will do what they can to help their fellow members. Talk to the men and women called to positions to help you.

  • McGurkus
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:11 p.m.

    I want to be Mormon on my own terms too. I want to drink alcohol, smoke cigars, and have indescriminate sex with as many females as possible, and I still want a temple recommend. Guess what? We do not get to be Mormon on our own terms. We can live life by our own terms, but we cannot be Mormon and ignore the central beliefs and practices of the Church.

  • Technically speaking...
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:13 p.m.

    Everyone's Mormon and selectively obedient on their own terms...

  • Jon
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:27 p.m.

    Im glad that people are trying to open others eyes about how they feel and have to deal with being gay in the church. But still, God has told us in the Bible and through modern day prophets (if you believe in LDS prophets which I am guessing these gay mormons do) that homosexuality to wrong. When I was a teen I wanted to have lots of sex but I didn't. I had the feelings but I didnt act upon them. Should I have just been mormon on my own terms instead?

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:27 p.m.

    It is Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. When will these people get over it. The LDS church is standing by the word and the Lord and will not falter to these silly requests.

  • T. Hanson
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:27 p.m.

    We all have a choice whether or not to follow the teachings of any church, religion, or ideaology, but there are consequences to every action whether good or bad. You can be a gay mormon, but I would rather be a true Latter-Day Saint.

  • JohnDC3000
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:28 p.m.

    I guess if you want to pay 5% tithing, you can do that too, sir. And if you want to go to the mountains every Sunday and consider that "worship" then go ahead. I'm not going to stop you. What you don't get is, that you stop (dam, like a river flowing) YOURSELF. That's why it's called obedience/disobedience. (not my vocabulary, God's). We're all beggars and I won't expect to claim the blessings of eternal life if I don't live the way that is required (thus the gospel is given to us to guide our decision-making). It's so sad to know that some in our society identify themselves by their sexual orientation. How about identifying yourself as a humble, obedient servant? (requires service, duh) Go ahead and seek to be independent; that's agency at work. But, good luck in the worthiness area: the requirements for the blessings are pretty cut and dried. (Sorry, Moms of disobedient children: your sons' choices to ACT are not something you can change).

  • gdog3
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:31 p.m.

    Only four comments so far. Nonetheless, I like them all thus far. I know, who cares, but this is a first for me. I am even open to homsexuals holding certain callings (vague I know), but the comments above are laid down with thoughtful content.

  • Mc
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:36 p.m.

    I know many heterosexual Mormons who have sex outside of marriage, living with someone they love without being married. They do not expect to be accepted as a faithful member or to have the Church decide that their lifestyle is okay. They know that they cannot have the blessings of the temple until they repent and live according to the commandments of God. The gays in Affirmation want the blessings without having to keep the commandments. They want their own terms and think if they push hard enough the Church will change the rules just for them. If they truly had a testimony of the Church and understood the Gospel they would know it just doesn't work that way. To them it is a social organization that can be pressured to change. They bring up the revelation that gave blacks the priesthood, but here are the differences:

    -black members of the Church were not sinning.
    -thousands were humbly, patiently living the Gospel waiting for the full blessings.
    -they didn't demand the change, knowing it could only come through revelation.
    -giving them the priesthood did not necessitate changing any commandments to allow sinful behavior.

  • Good Try
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:39 p.m.

    Living the commandments 'on my own terms' .. wow, you wish .... I have a gay nephew. I Love him and always will. He makes his own choices. He is free to choose, just as we all are .. but as the scriptures read 'you cannot serve God and Mammon'

  • DR
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:39 p.m.

    I feel that acceptence is a term that we all fight for but, in my opinion, I believe that everyone should be allowed to be happy and the religion they hold onto should accept them but, it's choices and desicions made on the churches part. I grew up LDS in a family history of LDS, yet some of my older siblings have left the church to pursue other religions. I myself am a Transgender whom is more towards both genders.

    If the lord didn't want us to play these roles, we wouldn't be here being tested. We chose our own lifestyles and we can't force them onto the religion because they are not us. Getting the churches help and attending services is a whole new subject that will be forever a fight.

    I agree that we all should be happy and respect those around us who are following laws whether state, or church.

    Finding out one is gay should move to learn more and understand that feelings and emotions within the heart. Closeted gays carry big burdens but it's a choice they choose to be because it's their happiness.

  • Forgiveness
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:40 p.m.

    The Savior is the one who will judge us all. We need to support those that struggle. Homosexuality is no difference than sexaual promiscuity. You may have feelings, but shouldn't act upon them. We should still be welcoming as the Savior would want us to be. Parents love their children and often make excuses for their actions. Try to understand that and be more forgiving.

  • A...
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:40 p.m.

    As a bisexual, I had a hard time coming to terms with my new Church. (I'm a convert.) But, I recognized that sexual feelings grip both hetero and homosexuals. God's laws are very clear, very specific and leave no room for "your own terms."

    Its your choice, obey the Lord or not. God's greatest gift is freewill. We are free to choose are actions, but we cannot chose the consequences. People talk about it being intolerance, its not, its the LDS Church being true to the written Law of God.

    If you don't like the Law, then don't be part of the religion.

  • Mc
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:44 p.m.

    Jon: (if you believe in LDS prophets which I am guessing these gay mormons do)

    I'm guessing these gay Mormons don't believe in LDS prophets or they wouldn't be pressuring the Church to change for them. If they believed in Pres. Monson as a prophet of God they would accept his guidance in this matter. Do you think the Church worked to defeat Proposition 8 without the direction and approval of Pres. Monson?

  • Jeff R
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:50 p.m.

    Its not what everyone tells you to do. Its what every religion has told us as humans for the last 4000 years. To blame the Church for following what it was founded on, the commandments and book mormon and the bible, is just plain silly. Satan makes people think alcohol or pornography is in there heart and is right, but, from what the prophets tell us, and all the other religions, it is wrong. I am sorry that what 98% of the history of people have believed and told to be wrong is an inconvinence to you all, but dont come blaming the church! People struggle with alchohol and drugs and are still active. They are going through a problem and repantance phase. It is no different for homosexuality. Sorry, but thats the facts. You help people with a problem when they have it, not encourage them to keep "following their heart" or denouncing the church.

  • doclouie
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:52 p.m.

    When Moses came down from the mount with the 10 commandments I am sure there were some that said hey those are the best 8 commandments and I am going to follow them. Following the commandments is an all or nothing thing. I do not mean that I or anyone is perfect, but we are striving to be perfect. Some have additions to drugs or alcohol and I would put this in the same category. It is something that must be overcome like anything else. Can you be temple worthy and gay? The answer is yes as long as you follow all the commandments needed to hold a recommend. Remember that we all have trials and for people who are gay that is one of theirs. They are not bad people, they just have different trials than most.

  • tah32
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:53 p.m.

    It's interesting that there is so much discussion about this. I don't think someone chooses to have homosexual tendencies (that is having romantic feelings for someone of the same sex), but it is how they choose to act on it. The ultimate gift we have been given in our life is our free agency. We will be held accountable and have consequences for all choices we make. There is no rationalization, it is black and white, there is no gray. Regardless of our sexuality, if we have any sort of addiction, if we party on the weekends and then go to church on sunday, if we are critical or meanhearted to those we don't agree with. We will be accountable how we live our life. Period. Doesn't even matter if we are LDS or not. We will get the eternal reward we deserve.

  • good times
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:54 p.m.

    Like any Faith, if you don't want to follow the teachings of a particular faith then you don't have to. If you want to change the LDS Church's teachings, then you aren't LDS. A struggle to follow God's teachings in the Bible or any other book is one thing, but to say that you can change them is completely different. How do you think all the religions in the world started? it was people who didn't like their religious teachings so they change them to accomadate their own wants. Walla, we have a new religion.

  • rblke53
    Sept. 19, 2009 7:57 p.m.

    Gay Mormons just want to belong to their faith and live the way they were taught as children, to follow the Mormon teachings to the best of their ability. No one will be able to obey all of the laws in the same way (I am often suprised by individuals definition of "obey"). We are an imperfect being on this earth and our goal should be to do the best we can. God loves everyone and we need to let everyone do the best they can, not judge, leave judgement to God. I think in the end we will all be suprised at how God judges everyone...including Gay Mormons...He will judge our lifes work as a whole. God Bless all who come together to address this tough issue. This is a much bigger than most know.

  • Brother Chuck Schroeder
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:00 p.m.

    The only lectures for gay and lesbian Mormons is simple, stop what your doing, repent, or leave. Need I say more?. You can't have it both ways. One, or the other.

  • huh?
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:02 p.m.

    Warren Jeff's didn't like the LDS teachings because they aren't convenient to his own carnal desires. Guess what, the FLDS made their own church with their own prophet and all stuff to be a seperate religion. Why don't you all do the same thing? I don't care if someone is gay, but to petetion a Church to change their stance on what they believe to be from God is wrong. The Bible says man shall not lay with another man. Start your own religion if you want a religion of convenence.

  • Sam Potter
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:04 p.m.

    Coping with homosexual feelings is an immense challenge in life. As a heterosexual man, I don't happen to have them, but I have friends in the LDS church who are struggling with this.

    The simple fact is that if you want to be an "active LDS" member, you have to live the standards of the church, namely the commandments. You can't pick and choose which commandments you feel like obeying and simply omit the ones that are inconvenient.

    Nobody's perfect, and we're all here to learn. We all will have challenges in life. Living the LDS standards requires sacrifice. For example, I'm 31, and still a virgin. It's really tempting sometimes to want to find an outlet for my sexuality, but I know if I want to live my religion I have to abstain and wait until I'm married.

    The LDS church will never modify commandments just because they're inconvenient for some people's lifestyles.

  • Kevin
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:06 p.m.

    Why does religion fear the truth? You trust some book. I trust my heart. The only judge I'll ever have is myself. Before you go spouting religious rhetoric, check the facts. If it was in fact Adam and Eve then prove it. If they are Gods laws then prove it. How do you know these things are true? The last time I checked no one here has died had a conversation with Jesus and come back to tell about it.

  • Candice
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:07 p.m.

    I'm gay and I'm a Mormon.
    While I understand some of the thought behind the comments above, it is easy to see that these people do not fully understand what being gay is. It isn't something you can understand or define like other "sins." It isn't lust or fleeting attraction.
    I love and appriciate and honor the prophet and the authority of the church, I do. I will forever hold dear the teachings and doctorine of the gospel. It is a part of the core of who I am, my culture, my identity.
    I'm a girl. I'm a beautiful, funny, life loving, respectful, spiritual girl.
    But I've had these feelings in the scariest deepest confines of my heart for a long long time.
    I even went on a mission to Santiago Chile in 2002, in a sincere hope that if I served god with all my heart, he would make these "homosexual tendencies" go away. I served a full and amazing mission. although i am grateful for my time in chile, these feelings did not go away.
    they were not dark feelings, or dirty feelings, or lustfull, but instead a need for companionship

  • S
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:08 p.m.

    I am saddened by how many here seem to find it acceptable to discriminate against an entire group of people in the name of God. You choose to ignore the scientific fact that homosexuality is as old as time itself, and that it is a hard wired existence - it is not a choice. I feel for those who are struggling to be LDS and gay. I hope you find the love, support, and acceptance you deserve.

  • A lot of stone casting...
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:13 p.m.

    How about loving people? The fact that they are trying to stay in the church says a great deal. Don't judge. Be patient. And love them. Their journey is theirs alone, and they alone will stand accountable to God.

  • Candice
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:14 p.m.

    Candice continued: . A type of companionship that I cannot get from a man. Something about masculinity frightens me, even disgusts me.
    You cannot tell me that those feelings of fear and disgust toward the male body will go away with prayer and scripture reading. I have tried, more than anyone reading this could know. I want to have a family, children, and a life of love and security. Why would I chose anything else.
    For some people, people like me, being gay is not about lust or rebelion... it is simply a need for companionship and family.
    I will forever honor my Mormon roots. Those teachings are in my blood and in my heart, but I do not believe that god made a mistake on me. And i do not belive that he wants me to be alone.
    Call me a sinner, if it helps you categorize me. But I do not fit into that box in my heart.
    I will continue to be the best Mormon I can.
    I have a personal and sacred relationship with my Heavenly Father on this issue, and I know he loves me and is proud of me.

  • Ray
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:19 p.m.

    I recently came out as bisexual and I have ALWAYS believed in the LDS faith, but instantly many of my friends and some family have said that I can't be both. But this article puts it wonderfully. I can be LDS, it's just on my own terms. I think the Church is great, sadly the people running it and in it sometimes forget that they're not God and that only He and His Son can judge. I may be attracted to guys but that doesn't mean I'm any less good than the rest of the religious sect.

  • John
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:19 p.m.

    The primary issue here is whether being gay is a "choice" or a matter of lifestyle decision. If you believe science, it is an inherent part of a person's identity, largely an attribute of birth.

    Some say that they are sticking to the directions of the LDS leadership. If history is any guide, this same leadership has been wrong (and proven by history to be wrong) on about every important civil rights issue in American history.

    If you are saying that Old Testament dictates are your guide, then you must also agree with slavery and killing your children if they "spill their seed."

    What many are doing is using Bronze age dogma and a somewhat clueless gerontology based in Salt Lake City as excuses and justifications for their own prejudices.

    It is ok to cling to your beliefs -- which inevitably will be proven wrong by history -- but to use the power of your religion to steal away the rights of others is a sin and will be yet another reason why the LDS church is becoming smaller and more irrelevent.

  • great
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:21 p.m.

    love is love and lust is sin, gay or straight. The church has been imperfect at times and members could very well be doing more damage than good throwing stones or oppinions out on the table against others. Support eachother and find a way to be tollarant of each others faults. Rember we are all born of sin

  • s wells
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:21 p.m.

    you treat this as though the gay person is sick! dont hide behind words in a book, you are a judgemental and sad people. I have a gay daughter, I accept her for who she is. I dont have to fall back on quotes or verses because I dont need to change her. if these church members want acceptance, how will this affect you? I am not gay, or will her being gay change my love for her, remember that word LOVE it what we are suppose to do. let god judge.

  • Utah Native
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:23 p.m.

    We are all God's children. He loves us all. Good luck to you all. I can only imagine what it would be like.

  • Duh
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:27 p.m.

    I am not perfect in any way, I still strive to live a good life in accordance to my beliefs. I have family who are homosexual, I do not discriminate against them. Because we live in Utah, those who are for gay marriage think that the LDS church discriminates because it is not allowed. It is goods law, not the LDS. That is the biggest problem with society today, change all the laws to accomodate whatever man wants, not God. God has always been the same, just because we live in a different era does not mean God is going to change. Of course if you are not a christian or if you have a different belief, I won't ask you to change, just don't ask me to.

  • Justthinking
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:30 p.m.

    "Selective obedience". It kind of amazes me that anyone would use this particular phrasing. Being true to yourself is not real difficult. I mean you can change the rules anytime you want, right? Being obediant in a religious context is a whole different ball game. If you don't like how the rules are written, then complain to the author. It should be fairly odvious that the leadership of the LDS Church on earth is acting under the direction of God. If you don't beleive that or don't believe in that, then what is the differance anyway?

  • The Rock
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:32 p.m.

    The LDS church claims that God Himself and Jesus Christ, His Son, personally called a prophet and restored the one and only true religion to the earth.

    If that is true and if it is also true that the LDS church is lead by a living prophet they it would be very wise to follow the teachings of this church very closely.

    To reject a core and foundational commandment such as Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery (or sins like unto it)is incredibly foolish.

    The LDS church is either God's church or it is not.
    If it is God's church, they follow every doctrine taught.
    If it is not God's church, just ignor it.

    God commanded "Thou shalt not covet." Coveting is a feeling.
    God commanded "Husbands love your wifes." Marriages at that time were arranged. Love is a feeling.

    God does not give us commandments we cannot obey.
    One may suffer from same sex attraction; however, we can all obey all the commandments.

    You can control your feelings. Yes it can be difficult but it can be done.

    There is no such thing as a (practicing) Gay Mormon.

    Them's the facts.

  • To rblke53
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:32 p.m.

    Thank you for your comment. Yours is a comment that reflects what I have always heard being taught by President Hinckley and President Monson. It is a Christ like attitude that should prevail on this issue. This concept of hate and/or a "holier then thou" mindset. Both of these are of course contrary to the teachings of the Gospel as well. The sooner people on all sides can start to remember that regardless, all are children of a loving, caring Heavenly Father that doesn't forget nor abandon His children, the sooner peace can exist in families and homes.

  • Tyler
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:38 p.m.

    I understand that some people are gay. It is who they are, and that is what they will be. But, it is impossible to believe in the LDS church, and be gay. The Book of Mormon says that man cannot surve two masters- in this case, you cannot be gay and have full belief in the LDS faith. If one is gay, and one is in the LDS church, than one must figure out which one you will fallow. "Gay LDS Members", if you still believe in the LDS faith, than pray about what is right. What way you will fallow. I do believe that there can be some natural attraction, but it is YOUR choice how to act upon those feelings.

  • For Candice
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:40 p.m.

    Thank you so much for your comments. I greatly appreciate it. I'm a gay male Mormon and feel exactly as you do. I've served in many callings, served a mission, faithfully prayed and read scriptures, attended services and essentially all the other things which the Lord asked for. However, in the last few years as I acknowledged my heart and feelings, I realized that it would be contrary to the teachings of the Church to act on my feelings. I have since began a life of being gay and Mormon. Yet, I have not turned against the Church. My testimony still remains as strong as it ever was. I do my best to be a strong and faithful person. I'm grateful again for your comments Candace. There are others like you that still maintain their faith in the Savior, our Heavenly Father and the teachings of their prophets.

  • Daniel
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:42 p.m.

    Dear Kevin, many people have died, talked to Jesus, and come back. But very few (if any) believe that it's anything more than neurons firing abnormally in a brain's near-death state. Check again. And, the burden of proof is yours (to disprove they're God's laws), not ours. Oh, and you're not the only judge you'll ever have... the Man upstairs will judge you, too (based on his commandments), so you better start living how He wants you to.

    Dear Candice, homosexuality IS something you can understand or define like other "sins". It's just an urge to do something against God's will... just like heterosexual attraction (it's not a sin for a man to be attracted to a woman, it's a sin to behave incorrectly).

    Dear S, I have never heard or read anyone saying that having homosexual feelings is a choice. Everyone (for and against) have always repeated that the feelings are hard-wired just like you said. What is constantly said, though, is that the ACTIONS based on the feelings ARE a choice. You're preaching to the choir when you say the feelings aren't a choice.

  • God LOVES everyone.
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:51 p.m.

    This article shows a complete and horrible misunderstanding of the beliefs of Mormonism, and I know MANY Mormons with same-sex attraction and I love them DEARLY!! If you really take a hard look at the doctrine of the church, the reason homosexuality is considered a choice is that by the church's definition it is an action- a sexual action. If you feel those urges and attractions that is not an action. We are accountable to God for what we DO with our bodies. Sexual attraction is not a part of the church's definition of homosexuality because there is no sex involved without that choice being made to act on it and therefore become homoSEXUAL. God does not judge us for what we have no control over. We control who we sleep with. That is why homosexuality can be a sin- because by definition it is a choice. The world changed its definition to include attractions and identity. The church did not.

  • ep
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:52 p.m.

    "Orthodox Mormons"--that's funny. Unlike other religions, we are not broken down into different sects. Sure there are "Molly Mormons" etc..., but even then we're all expected to obey the same commandments.

    I think Mc @ 7:36 said it beautifully:
    "black members of the Church were not sinning.
    -thousands were humbly, patiently living the Gospel waiting for the full blessings.
    -they didn't demand the change, knowing it could only come through revelation.
    -giving them the priesthood did not necessitate changing any commandments to allow sinful behavior."

    Candice, I know how you feel since I have a relative struggling with this issue, but the need for companionship in a homosexual relationship is not the answer. Please don't give up...

    And to "A lot of stone casting" @ 8:13 who said, "Their journey is theirs alone." NO, none of us will make it on our own, and it is our duty to try to help others (which if we don't, me will be held "accountable to God").

  • True
    Sept. 19, 2009 8:54 p.m.

    Agency is good. And choices have consequences. As for me and my house, we will continue to try our best to follow the teachings from sacred scripture and our beloved prophets. Life is good.

  • CAPTAINJACK
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:03 p.m.

    God knows our hearts and our souls. He loves each of us as only a father can. The guidelines of the mormon church offer us a way to grow closer to God. The process of growing close to God is personal and should not be judged by others. When any church gets to a point where people are judged by others of there faith and not God the entire church's faith is compromised. Please leave a person's individual search for peace and spiritual strength between them and God.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:16 p.m.

    God Bless you Candice. My prayers are with you. I can't imagine the struggle you face and I pray that all of the members of the church will strive to make your struggle easier by loving you unconditionally the way the Savior loves all of us.
    I didn't hear anything in your plea for tolerance that sounded like you wanted the church to change. It sounds to me like you just want some compassion and less judgement. Let's all try to give her that.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:20 p.m.

    You do not have to change your beliefs to continue to love your gay child, cherish them, and keep them as a member of your family. God is the only Judge. Jesus said "I command that you love one another." It is really that simple.

  • On His terms, not your terms
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:31 p.m.

    People who say the LDS Church is discriminating against "an entire group of people" by excommunicating anyone who practices a homosexual lifestyle simply do not understand the plan of salvation. The ability to procreate is given to us by God. One very important purpose of that ability, in fact THE most important purpose, is to "multiply and replenish the earth". That is God's instruction to all of us so that we can be part of His plan of salvation and help provide physical bodies for His spirit children (our brothers and sisters) who are waiting to come to Earth. A homosexual lifestyle is in direct opposition to His plan. Yes, our Heavenly Father also loves those who have homosexual feelings but they have to do this on His terms, not their own terms. Because of this there is no chance that practicing a homosexual lifestyle will ever be accepted in the LDS Church. Please note that straight people who also misuse this power of procreation through fornication and adultry are also excommunicated.

  • @Kevin
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:38 p.m.

    How do I know something is true? Its a time tested process of studying it out in ones mind and then praying to God to know if it is true. The answer, by the power of the Holy Spirit will confirm in your heart and mind that it is true. The feelings and thoughts that come are a witness that these things are, in fact, true.
    Thats it, what more can be said. Just put God to the test and ask him.

  • You can't be Mormon
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:52 p.m.

    and bi-sexual or gay. We believe the Bible to be the word of God and in the beginning God created Adam and Eve and commanded them to multiply and replenish the earth. Get a grip people. While your struggles may be difficult fight to learn to make your weaknesses strengths. Others of us have struggled with challenges too. We are all trying to make it back to God, but we can only do so within the confines fo his rules.

  • namfan
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:53 p.m.

    Would you want to belong to a religion where you could change God's mind about something?

  • snd85
    Sept. 19, 2009 9:56 p.m.

    I am a gay man, was raised in the LDS church and have served a faithful mission. I am no longer a member of the church and I do not desire to be associated with it anymore. I, however, agree with most of the comments here, you can't pick and choose things from a religion and then consider yourself a full member in good standing when all is not observed..its ridiculous...

    What I don't understand is, why would any of these other gay "mormons" desire to continue to be associated with such an organization that actively opposes and campaigns against their lifestyle and happiness (through political action and other means) ...it just befuddles me..

    To my fellow gay brethren still wanting to be part of the LDS church...Just leave!...there is much more happiness outside when you live your life honestly, according to who you are! Remember what a wise wizard once said: "It does not do to dwell on dreams, and forget to live"

  • Sarah Nichole
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:23 p.m.

    The thing is, we didn't suffer in the Garden of Gethsemane, and we didn't hang on the cross and die for the sins of the world, so we don't get to set the rules. We don't get to decide what's required for us to return to our Father's presence. The Savior made the sacrifice for us, so He gets to set the terms.

    Of course the Father still loves us no matter what we do. The scriptures tell us several times that God is love. He's described that way because He does love us exactly as we are.

    But loving somebody doesn't mean you don't have expectations of behavior from them. You love your children, but you still expect them to do their homework, obey the law, do their chores, etc. When they don't, there are consequences for their behavior.

    It's impossible to be "Mormon on your own terms" and still be worthy. Our goal here in mortality is not to become comfortable with ourselves no matter what, but to put aside our natural tendencies and to bend ourselves to what the Father wants us to be.

  • Just a Note
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:27 p.m.

    A post above stated: "this same leadership has been wrong (and proven by history to be wrong) on about every important civil rights issue in American history." Its important to note, the revelation on blacks receiving the priesthood came well after the Civil Rights Era as most know it. The revelation came in 1978 after a great deal of thought, discussion and prayer by President Kimball and the other members of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve. It was not bending to social pressure; had that been the case I'm sure the revelation would have arrived in the late 1960's.

  • To Anonymous | 9:16 p.m
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:31 p.m.

    Your post reflects the spirit and attitude that people of all faiths need to use. Imagine how much better of a world we would have if we all sought to accept any and all in a true Christian manner of mutual respect and love.

  • Aric
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:41 p.m.

    I really think those of us who don't deal with homosexual attraction have no idea what it's like. I pray that folks like Candice and Daniel will find solid support, true friendship, and unconditional love among their LDS associates. If any of my friends are struggling with this issue, they haven't let me in on it, but I hope I would be there for them just the same. These are good people bearing a tough burden; they need love and fellowship from us, not criticism or judgment.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:44 p.m.

    Feelings are not sins. The vast majority of us on this board agree that some people have natural feelings of attraction and love toward those of their own gender, just as others have those same feelings for the opposite gender, and some have those same feelings for both genders.

    The difference between heartfelt feelings and sin comes with action. If you choose to act on your feelings in a way that is contrary to the doctrine of God, then it is a sin. If you choose to act on feelings that God has deemed inappropriate (regardless of whether or not that's fornication or homosexual relations or condemning others for their mistakes) then it's a sin.

    I can't even imagine what it must be like to go through something like this, but I do know what it's like to struggle with something that's larger than I am. I know what it's like to try desperately to overcome thoughts and feelings and actions that are taking me away from God's plan for me.

    I also know that it's simply not possible to live life on my own terms and follow Christ simultaneously.

  • Who did Jesus condemn?
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:45 p.m.

    Misguided disciples & hypocites. He was very merciful towards the downtrodden. He dined with publicans & sinners. His disciples discouraged him from this and were reprimanded.

    There is no place in this discussion for judging.

    People will live their lives in the manner they feel right. Condemning them for it serves no purpose.

    I think many Mormons are 'looking beyond the mark' and alienating their friends, family,
    coworkers, neighbors & strangers. I have a hard time believing this is how Jesus would
    have behaved.

  • Paul
    Sept. 19, 2009 10:48 p.m.

    I thought this paragraph was very telling:

    "Pearson left the LDS Church awhile ago after what she called an epiphany in which she "gripped her desk at work," realizing that people have to follow what's in their heart, not what those around them tell them to do."

    When that person is God's prophet, you'd better be doing it. It's a shame that she has been so deceived.

    I live in the Bay Area of California, in the heart of the homosexual movement. I know and have worked with many gay people. Some of them are friends. Every last of them I have met is unhappy, and some of them are downright miserable. I find a vast majority of them have serious problems with selfishness. I've also met members of the Church who have repented and recovered from this sin.

    The problem with homosexuality is that once the brain has been trained to get pleasure from certain activities it wants more and more. Extreme carnal desires, no matter what flavor, are very difficult to get rid of. About all you can do is manage them according to the commandments.

  • So the LDS paper is anti LDS!?!?
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:06 p.m.

    I thought this article was offensive.

    I am LDS, I am conservative, I am well educated and philosophically VERY open minded as I love to learn, however this article was nothing but offensive. I cannot believe that the D.N. is publishing this.

    I would feel better if this article was removed.

    Being LDS means having beliefs that do NOT waiver, this women doesn't seem to get this.

    The best thing you can teach your Gay child is that it is a choice that can be made and a temptation that can be overcome.

    If you want the best possible guide for help, go to LDS.org, then the NEWSROOM, then PUBLIC ISSUES, then Same-gender attraction.

    This article was not appropriate as far as I am concerned.

  • Deseret News?
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:12 p.m.

    I don't agree with the views expressed in this article, but I'm impressed with Deseret News for running it. They managed to report their point of view without editorializing it. Well done.

  • justme
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:12 p.m.

    The fact is that MOST Mormons are inactive, non-temple recommnd holders. You CAN still be a Mormon and do and believe whatever you want.

  • Bill
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:37 p.m.

    The act of homosexuality is what is a sin. It is the same as the act of adultery or premarital sex. It is a sexual sin. President Kimball stated emphatically that the homosexual act is a grievous sin just like any other sin and is next to murder in the list of most grievous of all. It is difficult to repent from because it is not something that can be done over night. It takes years to overcome it but it is possible. God gave man the ability to crush the head of the Father of Lies, Satan.

    God also has given man the ability to overcome all of his/hers weaknesses. It is up to us to determine that but until a person is willing to act for themselves and allow the Lord to do so then and only then can one be healed. The Lord will never take away the urge but he can most definitely make it possible to not act upon the urge. There are some who may never have happiness in this life but in the life to come such happiness will prevail.

  • To Paul
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:40 p.m.

    To Paul: Has it ever occurred to you that many gay people are unhappy and miserable becuase they have spent their entire lives being looked down upon as second class citizens at best and witch hunted at worst? BTW, you need to look more carefully at the folks at your own local LDS ward. I guarantee you there are many LDS members who are also unhappy and miserable.

  • David in Michigan
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:42 p.m.

    To John at 8:19 pm who said, "Some say that they are sticking to the directions of the LDS leadership. If history is any guide, this same leadership has been wrong (and proven by history to be wrong) on about every important civil rights issue in American history."

    John, maybe you didn't know women were granted the right to vote in the Utah Territory in 1869, 50 years before the 19th Amendment was ratified, before any of the States, and second only to Wyoming of the territories.

    Maybe you also didn't know that opposition to slavery is one reason the Mormons were driven out of Missouri.

    Or did you know . . .

  • anonymous
    Sept. 19, 2009 11:49 p.m.

    What the article doesn't state is that most members of Affirmation have been excommunicated or resigned their membership in the Church. They actively help members write letters asking to have their names removed from membership records. Yet they can't leave the church alone. Sounds like a lot of people who desperately need the approval of the religion they still believe but aren't willing to conform to.

  • Mormons who struggle...
    Sept. 20, 2009 12:46 a.m.

    I have struggled with SGA to some degree for most of my life. I served a mission, was sealed to my wife, have three children, and even served in the Bishopric.

    I have learned that sexuality is like any other appetite and desire. Whether it is a desire to take drugs, eat too much, or spend more than you earn, it is the same. You feed it the wrong stimuli and it can take a life of its own. I choose to starve it and over the years its power has lessened more and more.

    I think there are thousands more like me who despite their struggles are able to keep their covenants. However, I think we should be respectful of those who have left the church as much as those who have left need to respect the decisions of those who have stayed.

  • Californian #1@94131
    Sept. 20, 2009 12:57 a.m.

    ** "Would you want to belong to a religion where you could change God's mind about something?" **

    Good point.

    And would you want a God whose mind could be so easily changed?

    As an adult convert, the Word of Wisdom,law of chastity, tithing, honoring the Sabbath, even simple things like treating the name of Deity with respect, were new to me. I discovered I could not "be Mormon on my own terms." I could be one or the other, but not both. I'm still working on it, but I'm trying to live on God's terms.

    We all have to choose our priorities. If someone cannot accept and understand that God gives commandments to protect His children, and they truly believe they will find the greatest happiness in living on their own terms and not His, I wish them well. I hope they e


  • Californian #1@94131
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:00 a.m.

    What I reall t meant to say before I so rudely interrupted myself, was:

    ** "Would you want to belong to a religion where you could change God's mind about something?" **

    Good point.

    And would you want a God whose mind could be so easily changed?

    As an adult convert, the Word of Wisdom,law of chastity, tithing, honoring the Sabbath, even simple things like treating the name of Deity with respect, were new to me. I discovered I could not "be Mormon on my own terms." I could be one or the other, but not both. I'm still working on it, but I'm trying to live on God's terms.

    We all have to choose our priorities. If someone cannot accept and understand that God gives commandments to protect His children, and they truly believe they will find the greatest joy in living on their own terms and not His, I wish them well. I hope they enjoy a lifetime of happiness according to their cocncept, and I hope they find it an adequate substitute for an eternity of joy.

  • SD
    Sept. 20, 2009 2:06 a.m.

    Since the beginning of human history, everyone has had challenges in life. No two people's challenges have ever been exactly the same, and the challenge of homosexuality is no different. As has been pointed out, whether you are heterosexual or homosexual, the desires of the Natural Man can and must be controlled. The desires themselves, whether same-sex or not, are not sins! It is only when we act upon them that we transgress the laws of god. There is truth and error to both sides of the argument here. God loves us regardless of our sexual orientation, but homosexuality is simply a challenge that must be controlled, just as any other weakness. Some find it difficult to stay away from drugs, some struggle to control their tongue, some have to tame their temper, and still others have to resist the urge to steal. We each have our own struggles but all of them can be overcome through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. It may take a lifetime, but in the end God will be the final judge of our hearts and through His grace we can ALL return to him again!

  • Lisa
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:34 a.m.

    For many, the "judging" that is talked about here is not for an individual who is struggling with same-sex attraction or even who is acting on it. It is for the attitude of wanting the church to conform to their wishes and/or accept their lifestyle.

    I can love an atheist and accept that person as a child of God who is loved by our creator just as I am, even if they don't recognize that creator. BUT, if that person tries to remove every mention of God in public, I'd have to stand on the other side, while still loving my friend.

    It is the same with the same-sex attraction issue. I know of a woman who loves her gay daughter and who has accepted her daughter's partner as a member of the family. This same woman also spent hours campaigning for prop 8.

    We truly can love the sinner (aren't we all?) but not accept the sin. That is not discrimination.

  • sorrow that the eye can't see
    Sept. 20, 2009 6:13 a.m.

    "Pearson's mother, Carolyn Pearson, is the author of "Goodbye, I Love You," which tells the story of her marriage to a gay Mormon man...[her daughter] left the LDS Church awhile ago..."

    I love Carolyn. As a teen,(and even later as a wife, mother, and then grandmother) I gained so much strength--and Gospel and spiritual perspective from her writings.

    I thought she had held as much personal pain and anguish as it was possible to hold. Now I read her child has left the Church--guess I was wrong.

    God bless you, Carolyn.

  • Alanna Farnsworth
    Sept. 20, 2009 6:33 a.m.

    My point in being interviewed was to broaden the awareness that LDS parents of gays and lesbians need to come together to support one another, and not feel like they have to "stay in the closet" about their child. I am reading a lot of judgement in many of these comments and therein lies the reason that so many parents feel they cannot confide in their fellow LDS about their struggles. We love our children. We know their hearts. I support my son in the decisions he makes for his life, whether that is to choose a lonely, celibate life, or love. All people will make their choices here and be judged by those choices. I will be judged on how I choose to handle the fellow men who come across my path. My feeling is that I'd better always err on the side of love, and leave to rest to God.

  • PNewman
    Sept. 20, 2009 8:04 a.m.

    This forum saddens me. Christ taught above all, "Love one another as I have loved you." It is my sincere prayer "Gay," people allow this modern day religion to believe as they choose. Who cares? Everytime this newspaper prints anything about "Gay" there is a huge out pouring of comments. I have always been taught if someone is unkind to me about my sexuality, they are simply uncomfortable, and question their own sexuality.

  • Artierome
    Sept. 20, 2009 8:13 a.m.

    I'm stunned that nobody has pointed out that we're supposed to strive to live our lives on God's terms, not ours. This applies to everyone, as I read it, bond or free, black or white, gay or straight. The challenge is and alway has been to discover what His terms are and live them the best we can.

  • judge
    Sept. 20, 2009 8:27 a.m.

    Inorder for the Lord's judgement to be just, there must be commandments to follow. God's judgement will be based on his commandmants which can be found in the holy scriptures. All men/women (whether they be black, white, green, yellow, gay, lesbian, hetrosexual, etc.) will be judge by the same commandments. Ufortinately, this is not a car factory where you can special order what you need - men bent the rules - God don't!

    "Am I my brother's keeper?" is a resposibility that we all have to each other. If any of my kids tell me that he/she is gay. I will continue to love and support them in everyway possible. As for partitioning to change God's rule, that's where I draw the line.

  • Me an Der
    Sept. 20, 2009 9:52 a.m.

    Who remembers the actual process of learning your native language? You speak and it feels that it is just a part of your being, your nature.

    Well guess what..
    Other inclinations and feelings come about in the same manner. You acquired them and you feel that they are just a part of your being, your nature.

    Question is...
    What do you do when you discover some things about your nature that need to be changed?

    When you discover that saying things like "Me and him went to the store." is not the kind of grammar to use as a media commentator then you must make changes.

    Change is the reality of mortality. Happiness doesn't result from remaining in a selfish state.

    Yup, it is not easy and only really possible if you set about making such changes with "a sincere heart and real intent." But, the good part is that it can be done.

    It is for this reason that the Savior prepared the way and came to provide the example of how to do it, and to send the Comforter to help us along the way.

    All must be patient with each other in this process.

  • KC
    Sept. 20, 2009 10:16 a.m.

    We are free to make our own decisions. But we aren't free to make the rules -- that's the Lord's role.

    We might be inclined to engage in behavior our Father in Heaven has taught us is wrong (theft, lust, lying, a host of other "sins"). Everyone has them. And we're free to act on them. But we cannot avoid the results that spring from those choices.

    Our Father's love in unconditional. Because he loves us, he asks us to change, to struggle to be more like Him, to be worthy of great rewards and great responsiblity here and in the hereafter.

  • MarkS
    Sept. 20, 2009 10:26 a.m.

    For those who want to learn more about others' struggle with homosexuality and Mormonism, a recent book by Carol Lynn Pearson, No More Goodbyes, also does an excellent job of recounting many true stories of real people and real families.

  • Candice
    Sept. 20, 2009 10:42 a.m.

    God bless you Alanna Farnsworth.
    You and my mother share something special.

    My mother called me the other day crying and thanked me for being gay... I was like "What!?!?!"

    We have been dealing and comunicating with this for a long time and it has been hard on us, but then she went on to say that she had to defend me that day. She said, "Candice, I had to defend you today, your feelings and your character. I never realized what you've done for me having this trial in your life, and how much I have learned about unconditional love and open mindedness. I feel sorry for any woman who doesn't have the honor of raising a loving, spiritual, lesbian daughter, because they will never know on such a personal level how much your happiness reflects mine. I see you happy and at peace with the ballance you've found for the first time in your life and I'm proud of you."

    I think every mother and father could learn a great deal from my mother. I'm not asking for the church to change, but for "everyone to err on the side of love."

  • Jeff R
    Sept. 20, 2009 10:50 a.m.

    And for all the LDS that shun these people, stop. We know what they are doing is wrong and they know it. We all sin and thats a fact. No one is perfect, not even the prophet. We cannot turn our back on these people who are going through a rough time and still love this church. We need to help them just like any other problem that some LDS have. We are a loving church and we need to act like it more sometimes, me included.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 20, 2009 10:54 a.m.

    Alanna Farnsworth -

    We should always love our kids… Regardless of their choices I will love mine.
    What I will not do is turn my back on the God of Heaven.
    In the scriptures it says that some will have to forsake family and friends for the Gospels sake. I take that to mean that our family and friends may forsake us, I would never forsake them... I will try to obey Gods commandments even if my loved ones forsake me.
    Recently my spouse came to me and in pain, hurt and anger from a past abusive relationship and said that she didn’t think God existed. She said that if he did he would take away her hurt and pain. She basically said I had to choose between her (our marriage) and God. I was devastated as she waited for my answer. Almost drawn to tears I told her that I would always choose God and I expressed my love for her and our children. Happily things are a little better for her and our marriage is still strong.
    Forsaking God would have only hurt me along with doing a eternal disservice to my family.

  • Disciple
    Sept. 20, 2009 11:00 a.m.

    Judge not that ye be not judged!

  • Evan E
    Sept. 20, 2009 11:22 a.m.

    To Candace and the other gay Mormon that left their comments...I'm not Gay, however, I believe everything that you have mentioned ! Why can't all Gay and lesbian people out there that also believe in The Church have the same attitude and conviction as you do ! God bless you both !!

  • Ernest T. Bass
    Sept. 20, 2009 12:27 p.m.

    What's the point of a religion who forces ancient lore and supertision of our bronze-aged ancestors upon us?
    Old men who are bigots are hardly inspired.

  • Kyle Anderton
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:01 p.m.

    If your gay you are not a worthy LDS member. There is no two ways about it. Pray and heal yourself, otherwise you are just wasting your time by complaining. It is a waste of effort. The Presidency is pretty clear in their stance and inspired by the word of Heavenly Father.

  • "Be a Mormon on your own terms"
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:15 p.m.

    Now there's a new doctrine. . . no wonder it resonated with her audience.

  • To Kyle
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:21 p.m.

    Kyle, a person can be gay (that is, have those desires and feelings) and not act on the impulses they have. I know several gay Mormons with temple recommends, because they live the law of chastity as best as they can, along with all the other commandments.

  • to kyle anderton
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:37 p.m.

    You are wrong! Being gay is not the issue per the The Presidency. Acting out in a sexual fashion is the issue. It isn't about who you are, but what decisions you make with that fact pattern.

  • Another Voice
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    I respectfully disagree with Kyle Anderton (1:01 p.m.).

    Gay people very much can be worthy members of the LDS Church. Their "gay-ness" is not a sin and has nothing to do with worthiness.

    Church authorities teach that sexual behavior with another person of the same sex is sinful.

    Being gay is not sinful.

    I know people with same-sex attraction who choose celibacy. They participate fully in all Church activities, hold temple recommends, serve in leadership capacities, etc. They are worthy in every way.

    They pray for the strength to keep the commandments, just like I do.

    Could God, in the future, reveal through his prophets a different definition of chastity? Yes. The President of the church will let us know if and when that happens.

    Until then, I love my brothers and sister with same-sex attraction who worship with me each week.
    They are beautiful, wonderful, contributing Church members who have blessed my life in many ways, even this morning.

  • Third time I've tried to post
    Sept. 20, 2009 1:50 p.m.

    People are born intersex/hermaphrodite (having both male and female genitalia. If God made genders unclear some of the time, why would sexuality be clear every time?

  • Just Wondering
    Sept. 20, 2009 2:04 p.m.

    Not being mormon, if one is in that faith, identifies as homosexual, but remians celibate and otherwise faithful to the teachings of the LDS faith, when entering into heaven, is that person still homosexual, and does gdd care at that point, as I assume there is no sexual activity in heaven (that aspect of humanity belonging in the corporeal world) or is the "homosexual" temptation removed and that faithful person restored (as it were) to "heterosexuality". I may go online to check this out. Thanks for any answers /perspective one can give.

  • Theodoreable
    Sept. 20, 2009 2:04 p.m.

    I had a cousin die of AIDS, one of the first, I had a friend in Bay Area who lived a gay lifestyle for many years before overcoming the situation. There are others in his family still living the lifestyle.

    I have learned one big lesson through all of the ordeals. You LOVE the PERSON and HATE the SIN. To those struggling....we pray for you...just like we pray to be faithful and strong to our families.


    Don't give up Candice and the male who answered her. We love you. Thanks for sharing!

  • This is what
    Sept. 20, 2009 2:30 p.m.

    the world would have you do-hope you're right and change they organization. What the spirit would tell you to do would be start your own religion, and make your own way. It's been shown already you can have the Bible, the BoM, all the tenets and everything. You just wouldn't be called Mormons. Gaymons, perhaps? You can't change me, but you can change yourself. And you can't make me accept you, but you can find others who will.

  • To Just Wondering
    Sept. 20, 2009 2:45 p.m.

    Just Wondering | 2:04 p.m. Sept. 20, 2009
    "if one is in that faith, identifies as homosexual, but remians celibate and otherwise faithful to the teachings of the LDS faith, when entering into heaven, is that person still homosexual"

    I read this today while preparing to teach an Institue Lesson: "The efforts we expend in overcoming any inherited weakness build a spiritual strength that will serve us throughout eternity."

    In my understanding, we are all given weaknesses that we are given the opportunity to overcome. If a person who has homosexual tendencies does not act on those tendencies, I believe these tendencies will be removed by the grace of the Savior's infinite atonement. This applies to someone who is addicted to alcohol. If they are able to overcome it to the best of their ability, the weakness will be removed. I don't think God will consider this person an alcoholic. He does not see us that way...even in this life. Homosexuality, alcholism, drug addiction are social terms to describe addiction.

  • AndyDad
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:00 p.m.

    I still don't understand why Mormons are so selective when choosing which bible verse they wish to stand by.

    Nowhere does it say being gay is a sin.

    And Leviticus also points out that we shouldn't wear two different types of fabric.

    Personally, I think the whole thing is hypocritical.

  • billy
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:02 p.m.

    Go right ahead and be mormon "on your own terms." Let me know how that works out for you and your eternal salvation.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:21 p.m.

    mc. the church had nothing to do with the prop 8 thing. people in the church did but not the church itself

  • LindaLDS
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:25 p.m.

    I agree with all the other LDS on here.
    Gay Mormons can be Mormons and gay, but if they don't live the commandments, especially no sexual contact with anyone who is not your spouse of the opposite sex, you can't really get any of the blessings. Such as temple, having callings, etc.
    How Jesus will eventually judge you is not up to us to decide. But, we ARE given commandments that we are to abide by, and we are not allowed to deviate from them.
    So, if one is sexually active with anyone who is not their spouse of the opposite sex, they may be disciplined by the church, and they must accept that. Feelings are one thing, actions are another. Many go their whole lives without any sexual contact with anyone. It IS possible to do. God won't take it away, you have to master your feelings.
    Sex isn't everything. It's not the most important thing. Don't be identified by your sexual preferences. That's just wrong, on so many levels.

  • nurse rem
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:31 p.m.

    Believe it or not...there are some places in the country where nobody asks and nobody cares. And, they are happy, doing fine and have not been "burnt as stubble" to the glory of all those who can't wait to watch. As long as Utah perpetuates this us against them mentality, there will be news. Not good news...just some news. What did you learn in school today? Nothing.

  • ON MY OWN TERMS AND PROUD
    Sept. 20, 2009 3:42 p.m.

    I am Mormon on my own terms and proud of it. I realize Christ told us to love everyone and to judge not (3 Ne. 14:1, not JSM). However, I hate liberals and homosexuals, I hope they will burn in Hell, and I'm going to post my comments along side all others who feel this way.

    Those are MY terms, and I don't care that they don't comport with the Gospel.

  • Mom
    Sept. 20, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    As a mother of a gay son, I have really struggled with this problem. Before I found out about his orientation, I completely supported the Church's views on homosexuality. I don't any more. My son is caring, compassionate, loving. I cannot believe he will be condemned by God. It goes against what my heart, head, and soul tell me. The Church speaks of things that aught to be..... except in this case.... I continue to go to church, the temple, pay my tithes, etc. I guess that kinda makes me a Mormon on my own terms.

  • Silver Grey
    Sept. 20, 2009 4:20 p.m.

    If homosexual feelings are hard-wired, how do you explain bisexuals? We are all hard-wired with a need for love and acceptance. That doesn't mean, Candice, that companionship has to include intimacy. If you were a missionary, you know that the companionship of the Holy Ghost will see you through any distress, including loneliness. In my youth (I'm almost 60) it was not uncommon for a woman to be "frigid", probably the same feelings as having disgust and fear of a man's body. The difference of course is that in those days, there was no public support group for gays as there is now. My uncle (in the 1940's)walked in on his wife having sex with another woman. He left her and found a virtuous woman to be his new wife. No, God did not make a mistake with you. You have the choice to face your fears and go forth with faith, or succumb to worldly pleasures and pressures. I wish you well.

  • Let go what you're not ...
    Sept. 20, 2009 4:21 p.m.

    Laman and Lemuel also wanted to let go things that they were not comfortable with.

  • Every single one of us
    Sept. 20, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    that are LDS and Non-Lds have opinions on all kinds of subjects. When I was a young women leader, we had a girl in our program that was gay. We knew it even though she never came right out and said it. We loved her for who she was. We still do!!!!! She is a great human being! When she tried to get some of the YW involved in her lifestyle we had to have a little chat, but after that it was just back to loving her and appreciating what she had to offer when she was in our presence. She is grown up now and I have met a couple different girlfriends of hers. What she does with her life IS her choice but she learned as a teen not to try to force it on others. I understand she is not living God's law but that is between her and God..... I still love and care about her.

  • Weedeater
    Sept. 20, 2009 6:13 p.m.

    Silver Grey, human sexuality occurs along a spectrum of "orientation", from completely and utterly heterosexual, progressing in infinite gradations through the bi-sexual and on to completely and utterly homosexual. If you plot the population versus orientation on a graph then most of the population would cluster down on the heterosexual end of the spectrum but the graph would "trail" into the homosexual end. People are born all kinds of ways, but mostly heterosexual.

    I can see the church angling toward a way to more fully accept homosexuals, laying the groundwork for more considerate policies. But it will take a couple more generations, and seriously lag popular cultural acceptance, before a formalized acceptance is "revealed".

    Thus Saith the Weedeater.

  • Sarah
    Sept. 20, 2009 7:06 p.m.

    Way to go, Alanna! I am so blessed to have you as my friend. The Affirmation conference was such a good thing for me right when I needed it most. Even though it is my husband, rather than a child, that is gay, it is amazing how much I have in common with you parents in our struggles to truly love our family members while still trying to cling to the gospel for which our testimonies are so strong. It helps so much to know that we are not alone. We have each other and the Savior to help us through this trial.

  • Glenn J.
    Sept. 20, 2009 9:19 p.m.

    The article stated that the speaker said "You're taught that anything outside the structure of Mormonism isn't right," I've been LDS all my life, and have never been taught this. This is simply not a true statement. These kinds of statements allowed to go unchallenged become "fact," and then the rhetoric becomes "evidence" of an uncaring, myopic church. My experience, however, has been that God loves us all and will make way for all - ALL - His children to return to Him if they wish to do so.

  • Yup!
    Sept. 20, 2009 9:37 p.m.

    Signs of the times!

  • Follow the Prophet
    Sept. 20, 2009 9:38 p.m.

    Follow the prophet and the teachings of the Apostles, you'll never go wrong. We'll need to struggle through our trials, of course, but if we follow the living prophet and the commandments, the light will come. It's not easy, but it's worth it!

  • Re Follow......|9:38
    Sept. 20, 2009 9:46 p.m.

    The answer to this tough debate is follow the prophet? You got to be kidding me! There is little wonder why people are leaving the mormon church in droves.

  • Name
    Sept. 20, 2009 10:13 p.m.

    "people are leaving the mormon church in droves"? Really? And on what data are you basing that claim?

  • Loren
    Sept. 21, 2009 5:06 a.m.

    Gays need their spirituality, for some that means the Mormonism they grew up in, for others it means moving on and finding it elsewhere.

    A few years ago a gay Mormon religious group was formed and as far as I know it still exists. They do services and even have a liberal kind of temple service and sealings for gay couples. I believe it is called the Restoration Church of Jesus Christ.

    There is also a newer group called Reformed Mormonism, which is very open-minded and welcomes gays and lesbians on fully equal terms. They are easily found via a web search. This group does not run a big organization, leaving the spiritual practice at the family level. They also have their own kind of temple-like ceremonies available.

    So, in addition to the LDS, gay Mormons can look for acceptance in at least two gay friendly Mormon groups that would welcome gays with open arms. There are also some of the RLDS/COC churches that are welcoming to gays. Those are some options.

  • odd
    Sept. 21, 2009 5:54 a.m.

    My very active, temple attending (once a week) sister was asked by a gay young man to please stay at her house until he could afford to move into his own place after he graduated from university. She willing did so, because we are all sinners. She did ask him to follow her rules while living in the home and he did oblige to the best of her knowledge. Whether he did or not is his business. This gay man loves mormons because of her example of faith in action.

    And anonymous, your grandfather isn't bound to your grandmother UNLESS he choses to accept the action.

    Ex-lds

  • to silver gray
    Sept. 21, 2009 6:00 a.m.

    The average science class teaches that XX's are female while XY's are male. That is not always the case. Most xy's are male, but not all. Some are xy females able to reproduce children. Some people are born with parts from both genders and are known as intersex/hermaphrodite. There are also people born with no gender and are gender neutral. Sorry, but if your God can't make gender clear 100% of the time, why would one believe sexuality to be clear cut. Instead, I would expect a range as in gender and which is indeed the case.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 21, 2009 6:52 a.m.

    This is off shooting...this is rationalizing this is so obviously an attempt to gain self gratification based on personal idealization outside of societal norms. The church is not perfect... All of us could if we were allowed to chose to do so...rationalize some aspect of the church and it's doctrines to fit our own individual struggles. It's not perfect because of the people who are in the church and because Satan plays the key roll of confusing and creating chaos in his attempt to make each of us miss the mark. But the gospel and the doctrines handed down by God through his prophets are perfect. God loves every man or woman and bases our struggles and challenges accordingly on each personality...but this is a probationary state and guidelines have been set for us to follow. Homosexuality is a perversion...there is no getting around that fact other than to live the law of chastity or reside in a binding celestial or civil marriage continuously faithful to ones spouse. Like every other challenge homosexuality is a fork in the path to exaltation...Choose wisely before leaving the gospel and church or pay the consequences.

  • daveescaped
    Sept. 21, 2009 8:10 a.m.

    To those making locker room comments like "Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve", Wow is all I can say. I am so embarassed for you. The sad truth is we might even agree on the principles here but your tone is so far from Christlike. I sincerely hope you are not representitive of MY LDS community.

    Look, the folks in this article are struggling with an extremely tough issue. I am willing to assume they haven't yet completed a journey and when they do they may realize some of their ideas were more a reaction than a definitive conclusion.

    I knew a man on my mission who had lived a Gay lifestyle and later joined the church. He was kind and as obedient a church member as I can ever hope to be. I felt such sympathy for his struggle. But on the balance it seemed his life was better for the struggle than it had been when he relented and lived a Gay lifestyle. Still, I wouldn't wish his circumstances on anyone.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 21, 2009 8:13 a.m.

    Dear anonymous: chances are your mother just became inactive in the church. She is still a member if her name is still on the records. The rules as you called them are not strict. I have known people who have been allowed in the temple who have addiction problems. Your granfather was not BOUND to your grandmother as you put it, he was sealed to her

  • to frank lee scarlet
    Sept. 21, 2009 9:23 a.m.

    You call homosexuality a "perversion" but the problem remains that your God created intersex humans, both part male and part female. Why did you God create such "perversions" unless wanted and loved for the difference?

    You also forget that near your anti-homosexual scripture is scripture forbidding the perversion of eating shellfish. Would you consider tossing your child out of your home for the perversion of eating a shrimp salad?

  • Gone
    Sept. 21, 2009 9:33 a.m.

    Served a mission, graduated from BYU, and at the disciplinary council where I was ultimately excommunicated, the stake president said "in many ways, Mark is the kind of Church member we need more of." Have been in a committed relationship with my partner for nearly nine years.

    Kept attending Church for a couple of years after I was excommunicated. Why? Because the LDS Church was the religious culture, tradition, and theology that I believed in.

    However, over the last couple of years, the actions the Church has taken, and the things members have said (and continue to say, this series of comments being only on example), go far beyond taking a stand, and reach into something hateful and far less than Christian. I no longer participate, and instead just feel sadness that so many good people find it acceptable to harbor such un-Christian attitudes.

    How can you be sure that you aren't a modern-day example of what Alma described? "And the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress." Alma 4:10

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 9:48 a.m.

    I wish that people would stop acting like being gay was a third type of gender. Heavenly Father created 2 male and female not 4 to include gay which means in my book 'happy' or lesbian.

    To the sister who finds the male body repulsive -I agree it can be but what our bodies can create and make each other feel when they come together is simply beautiful.

  • Great Story-Thanks DesNews!
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:05 a.m.

    I think this is a very pertinent issue to discuss and thanks for sharing these candid individual stories

  • Mormon on your own terms
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    The terms are not yours to dictate, but the Lord's only. How do we know the Lord's will? Through his authorized servants, the apostles and prophets. What has their consistent stand been on this issue? To love the sinner but condemn the sin. Simply put homosexual activity is a sin, not the feelings, but the actions. I believe the physical desire for anyone toward any gender is not a sin, but dwelling on it, acting on it, and accepting it as non-sinful is a sin.

  • To Gone
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:16 a.m.

    Gone | 9:33 a.m. Sept. 21, 2009
    "the things members have said (and continue to say, this series of comments being only on example), go far beyond taking a stand, and reach into something hateful and far less than Christian."

    You are correct. There are some in the church whose attitude towards those who struggle with homosexuality or any other weakness is less than Christian. However, this is not a representation of all those in the church. I guess it comes down to focusing on the good and having a Christlike attitude toward the others.

  • To Gone
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:36 a.m.

    Gone | 9:33 a.m. Sept. 21, 2009
    "How can you be sure that you aren't a modern-day example of what Alma described? "And the wickedness of the church was a great stumbling-block to those who did not belong to the church; and thus the church began to fail in its progress." Alma 4:10"

    The church teaches us that Homosexuality is a sin, and it taught us that when you held the church dear to your heart. Nothing has changed.

    I think it is telling how people strive to find fault with the church after leaving the church to assuage any feelings of guilt.

  • sa
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:48 a.m.

    I have no problems with people being gay, I do have a problem with gay people marrying in the temple and pretending to be straight. Why? Because it hurts many people, especially the children that come into the world.

    My aunt married a gay man in the temple and had seven children with him. One of her children ended up being gay and now works for the LDS church. This child (to his credit) does not pretend to be straight and marry in the temple. He lives an honest life (although for the sake of his job he keeps his private life private). I think this is great!

  • Not Gay However
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:49 a.m.

    My roommate and good friend in college was. He too was loving and caring and was very spiritual. He too struggled with the Church's position on homosexuality. He also served a full time mission and still had these desires when he came home.

    The difference is that he viewed his homosexuality as a challenge or trial to overcome. He really did believe 1 Nephi 3:7. It was hard and it was a challenge but he is now married with six children and is very happy.

    Fortunately he was blessed with parents who loved him enough to always accept him but not the lifestyle. They would have loved him either way but gave him the courage and support to overcome this challenge. His wife was unbelievably supportive as well.

  • Taylor
    Sept. 21, 2009 10:53 a.m.

    I respect homosexual Mormons. It would be very difficult to grow up in the church and have those feelings.
    But, I feel the good people in this article don't understand the gospel. "on YOUR own terms." That is totally opposite of what every Mormons is suppose to be doing. Christ said in 3 Nephi 27, that he "came to the world to do the will of the Father..." Should we not follow the Lords example and give up our hearts to his will. I can't imagine what that struggle will be for gays. I know it is extremely hard; but that is what the Lord asks of them. The Lord asks a lot out of everyone. I hope I can follow him. I hope gay Mormons can too.

  • Aaron
    Sept. 21, 2009 11:05 a.m.

    I'm not gay, but I am LDS.

    It's true, I can't fully understand the feelings that a gay mormon may experience.

    However, I understand sexual desire enough to know it's power.

    All I can say is, you need not act on your desires when you knows it is in opposition to your beliefs.


  • re---- To Gone | 10:16 a.m
    Sept. 21, 2009 11:14 a.m.

    ["There are some in the church whose attitude towards those who struggle with homosexuality or any other weakness is less than Christian."]

    actually, just the way you phrased that, as a "weakness" is typical of mormons. why is it a "weakness"? why do you consider being gay, or transgender, or anything different than your narrow view of the world, have to entail "weakness"?

    there is nothing wrong with being gay. You all are such believers - you must believe God made these people the way they are. Are you saying God made a mistake? do you think God is testing these people? how would you suggest a transgender person fix this "mistake"?

    you need to open your eyes. There is a lot more to life and the world than your little narrow vision. you judge, and thus you will be judged harshly.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 11:46 a.m.

    To "Mormon on your own terms":

    If you think the Church's stance on homosexuality has been the same over the years, you are mistaken. At the very least the tone of the approach is different. Compare e.g. what Kimball wrote to the compassionate approach of modern day leaders. So much for consistancy. Change is a necessity.

    Also, if you read the scriptures carefully, you will hardly find any refernces to homosexuality. And don't even get me started on Sodom and Gomorrah.

    The Lord dictates the terms, yes. So, don't limit him on what he can do, or what he can't do. That the Lord speaks to prophets is not a fact, it's your believe. I don't think all our leaders do or decide is devinely inspired. Gay lds members have every right to speak up and make their case known.

    We have to do more for our faithful brothers and sisters who are homosexual.

  • Just me...
    Sept. 21, 2009 11:49 a.m.

    All these comments are what makes me grateful not to be a Mormon. I was born and raised in California. I moved to Utah finding myself surrounded by Mormons that are rude and so closed minded (not all but some). They judge you based on EVERYTHING! It's ridiculous. Who cares if some people are gay or lesbian and part of the Mormon church or any church for that matter?? I think if God didn't want there to be gays or lesbians, there wouldn't be any in this world but guess what, there are! It's not a birth defect. They aren't diseased or anything. STOP treating gays and bi-sexuals like they are!! They are real human beings that live THEIR lives. Everyone does deserve to voice their own opinion and I say let God judge. Gays, lesbians, and bi-sexuals shouldn't be banned or looked down upon based on their sexuality. If they believe in the lord, the lord will love them just the same as everyone else. Everyone needs to live THEIR own life and stop judging other people based on their religion, sexuality, race...

  • Respose to Response to To Gone
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:19 p.m.

    re---- To Gone | 10:16 a.m | 11:14 a.m. Sept. 21, 2009
    "actually, just the way you phrased that, as a "weakness" is typical of mormons. why is it a "weakness"? why do you consider being gay, or transgender, or anything different than your narrow view of the world, have to entail "weakness"?"

    Let's put it this way. If someone personally struggles with homosexual tendencies that they feel inhibit peace and happiness in their life, they have every right to call it a weakness. If not, that is their right as well. Obviously, you only accept the latter. Now, who is narrowminded?

  • Children of gays attracted 2 gay
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:33 p.m.

    "Pearson described herself as "very Mormon" growing up, which made for a difficult reconciliation since her gay father died from AIDS, and her ex-husband later identified himself as gay."

    Here is evidence that homosexuality may not be in-born and instead may be a result of many factors. A woman with a gay father ends up marrying a gay man without ever realizing he was gay yet I can place my bet that something about him reminded her of her father and that something was his sexual attraction to men.

    I had a friend who dated 4 different guys over the course of 5 years and she found out that three of them were gay but believes that the other 2 weren't even though its highly likely that they may still be in the closet about their homosexual orientation.

    Pearson's childhood would have led her to form an attraction to a specific kind of man which has a lot in common with her father. That attraction would have led her to be attracted to a homosexual. Just like my friend. So what about people who are attracted to the same sex? Think about it!!!

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:36 p.m.

    re - Mormon on your own terms | 10:07 a.m

    ["The terms are not yours to dictate, but the Lord's only. How do we know the Lord's will? Through his authorized servants, the apostles and prophets."]

    all the apostles are dead and the only prophet was hung on a cross. how do you expect we should ask? if you go by the bible, make sure you follow ALL the "rules" not just some of them. and has it at all occurred to you that some of the apostles were gay? a bunch of guys hanging out together all the time... very few women in any of the stories... it is entirely possible, and yet these were Jesus' friends.

    you need to open your eyes to the real world instead of living in some fantasy world created by your leaders.

  • Re: sa
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:37 p.m.

    If your cousin works for the LDS church, then he is required to hold a current temple recommend. As a former church employee, I had to have one just to answer the phones and take orders for the Ensign. If he is doing something which requires his private life to be kept private, then he is lying in his temple recommend interviews, and eventually that's going to come back to harm him. I would encourage him to tell the truth to his employers and to his bishop. It'll save him a lot of heartache in the end.

  • re-re-re-too all in-ablers
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:38 p.m.

    The drums of the evil-one are loud and ever present in this article. Be a supporter of God truths. Jesus is forgiving, only if, you "go and sin no more"! He DID NOT condone sin! He did not ignore sin! The pain for your loved ones can only be releived by resisting the evil-ones temptaions. This is a spirtial war against the attackers of God Plan. We must combat these attacks, by defending Gods Truths. Adam and Eve is the plan! Adam and Steve is not! The evil-one has confused the normal love for they brother, into the lust of the imoral. No justification can be accepted, or should be rationalized. God has made his will known to all. They that chooses to turn away, are lost forever. I pray for all those in pain, to find there relief in God. Amen!

  • SATAN
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:38 p.m.

    Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God–he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God, oh yea and homosexuality is OK.

  • Evidence it's a mental illness
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:41 p.m.

    RE:sa

    "I have no problems with people being gay, I do have a problem with gay people marrying in the temple and pretending to be straight. Why? Because it hurts many people, especially the children that come into the world."

    It doesn't hurt children if their parents married in the Temple, raised them and remained faithful to the covenants that they made in the Temple. What hurts a child is if their parent then decides that they will break those covenants and leave their family to live a homosexual lifestyle.

    So the choice that hurt the children isn't to marry in the Temple and start a family but to divorce and end the family.

    "My aunt married a gay man in the temple and had seven children with him. One of her children ended up being gay and now works for the LDS church."

    Here is another example of a child of a gay man either becoming gay or marrying a gay person like Pearson.

    Do you begin to see the connection? Pearson's father died of AIDS so she marry's a gay man. Your nephew's father was gay so he struggles with homosexuality.

  • To Just Me...
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:42 p.m.

    Uh, this is an article about gay Mormons who want the church to change its stance on homosexuality to suit their desires, and in the meantime, will do whatever they want without regard to what the religion actually teaches. Members of the LDS church who are trying as hard as they can to keep the commandments, and to change the desires they have that run contrary to the gospel, have every right to comment on this issue. You're doing a lot more judging than most of the commenters here.

  • Many paths
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:45 p.m.

    {Strait male} These judgemental Mormons spouting off are one of the reasons I worship from home now on "my own terms".

    I'm still living a life God would be proud of but I have no desire to spend my Sunday being spiritually drained by the ultra-conservative, judgemental, close minded Mormons who preach their views and opinions at church instead of core principals.

  • Can you imagine?
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:46 p.m.

    I think the discussion must turn away from what it does or does not mean to be "gay" or "straight". Instead, I think the discussion needs to turn to what it means to be "Mormon" (LDS).

    So many LDS people condemn "gay" Mormons by insisting (naively) that they either "straighten up" (literally) or leave the Church.

    As if it is that simple.

    But it is not.

    Being Mormon goes far beyond being a person whose name shows up on a Ward list and who has baptismal and ordinance records on file in the Church computers.

    Everything the Church does is designed to make being LDS the most powerful, defining aspect of personal identity in your life!

    They start from birth - you are expected to be born "under the covenant", then receive your name and blessing - a blessing in which your entire life plan is spelled out for you in advance! Then you are nurtured and you develop in a very strong LDS "community": Family, Ward, Stake!

    So when a person's sexual identity comes into direct conflict with their Mormon identity, do you honestly think it is as simple as just saying "Turn off one of them"?

  • Theft
    Sept. 21, 2009 12:59 p.m.

    As the church gets larger, so will the number of dissenting voices--which usually are fewer in number but as the scriptures show, they may increase and overwhelm the righteous. It would be more unusual if there were no splintering. Someone must be tempted before they can be faced with sinning. Sin is knowing God's will and going against it. If someone gets tempted to steal, they have a choice of either doing it or not. If someone gets a thought to go against God's will, they have a choice of either doing it or not. If you can overcome temptation, you will not sin. The church has said anyone may be a member of the church in good standing as long as they do not act on their temptations--whether that be to steal or to improperly use procreative powers outside the bonds of marriage between a husband and wife. If you don't believe you are being tempted then you will say you have nothing to repent of. Because so many people are not chaste before and during marriage, it is no wonder others are confused when they are tempted.

  • Time to wake up Utah
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:09 p.m.

    WAKE UP UTAH - this particular wave of negativity is the result of demagogues whipping up the semi-educated into a frenzy. It's an old ploy, used by the likes of Father Coughlin in the '30s and McCarthy in the '50s. But since our ignernt Limbites have no sense of history, they fall right into the money-grubbing hands of the likes of Beck and Limbaugh and Hannity and actually believe that these characters are telling them the truth. Homosexuals and lesbians all lie. Why do YOU even argue with them?. Ignore them. All they want is attention. This is the way DN gets rating's.

  • Can you imagine?
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:11 p.m.

    So what does it really mean to be LDS?

    Does it mean you can answer all the questions in the Temple Recommend interview?

    Does a person who cannot qualify for a temple recommend suddenly become "Non-Mormon"?

    Does a person who has sinned suddenly become "Non-Mormon"?

    Does a person who is excommunicated suddently become "Non-Mormon"?

    It is a tribute to the Church that it creates such a compelling and powerful spiritual, social and psychological influence on people that they identify themselves so strongly as LDS "members"!

    Many people in the Church would leave their spouses/families or even their countries rather than leave the Church!

    But other groups have wielded similar power over individuals: Nations, Tribes, Clans, Churches, Cults, Schools, and even Businesses!

    So the fact that people identify so strongly with the Church cannot possibly be evidence of its "truth".

    Indeed, it may suggest that people get caught up in the Mormon Movement for all these emotional, social, psychological reasons RATHER THAN because of truth - just like all those groups the LDS Church insists are NOT TRUE!

    What does it mean to be LDS? Is it just being a "member" of an elitist social club?

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:12 p.m.

    I hope for your cousins sake that the church does not find out that he is gay.


    to GONE: God does not make mistakes but he does give us challanges. and yes we are tested.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:15 p.m.

    "Someone must be tempted before they can be faced with sinning. Sin is knowing God's will and going against it."

    You mean the way Eve did? But then why is she honored?

  • Not Asleep
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:17 p.m.

    Point One: One thing stands out in my life (4 decades and counting): the closer I keep to the Lord the more understanding I gain in my life; the further I get from the Lord the more confusion reigns. It doesn’t mean that the thorn in my side isn’t any less intense or relentless but I understand why I have it and the strength to endure.

    Point Two: To me, there is something wrong with attaching a label to the person (lesbian, Transgender, homo). To label the difficulty, yes, but to label yourself is to pigeon-hole yourself. It’s like using other names stupid, retard, pervert, etc. Our culture though seems to be making some popular and others not. Nevertheless, the attaching of labels to categorize people seems to be exacerbating society's problems not helping them. Though Candace's mother seems to be compassionate and has come to some understanding, to call Candace a lesbian I think is a mistake. In this sense, it seems to tend to glorify it in some way.

  • Not Asleep
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:19 p.m.

    OOPs, correction:

    isn't any less intense = is any less intense

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:22 p.m.

    ReF: frank lee scarlet

    You confuse terminology... eating shellfish is not written in scripture as a perversion. It's considered unclean in some religions from which Christianity sprang from...whereas homosexuality is outlined as a perversion of Gods plan concerning men and women. It specifically outlines that men shall not lie with or have knowledge of other men Your attempt to just grossly oversimplify unlike doctrine is not realistic and in itself is a perversion of terms...mingling truth and scripture with half truths and the philosophies of men. There is a big difference. I have a niece from my older Brother who is a Lesbian and the younger brother of my Brother in law married to the youngest of my two sisters is gay. In addition I have a close High School friend who is gay and have lost two other close friends to aids not knowing they were gay before they contracted the disease. So it's not like I haven't been exposed to the facts here. They all know that I still loved them but they also know that I cannot condone or just cover over the facts...and they fully understand me without guile.

  • Mc
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:38 p.m.

    @tigerlily

    The LDS Church did formally support Proposition 8, not just individual members. In a First Presidency letter read to congregations in CA the following was stated:
    "A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.

    We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage."

    This was signed by the First Presidency, including our prophet, Thomas S. Monson. I believe this directive came from the Lord to a prophet of God. You don't have to believe that if you don't want to, but acceptance of latter-day revelation through a prophet of God is part of the very foundation of the LDS Church. If you don't believe it I don't see why you would want to stay in the Church.

  • Dan
    Sept. 21, 2009 1:48 p.m.

    My wife and I are LDS. We have a son who has proclaimed he is gay. We love him.

    It is not my desire nor my agenda to attempt to change or alter scripture or doctrine of the LDS church, as I do not believe that it will ever change. However It is my desire to continue to love my children and pursuade them to believe in Christ and his teachings. That is what I will choose to do.

  • Millie Watts
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:08 p.m.

    I personally wish that there were room in the church for parents who have gay children. I cannot attend anymore, because of the church policy on gays. I cannot listen to comments made in meetings that are negative toward my gay children and friends. I admire Alanna and support her in her choices.

    I attended the Affirmation Conference this weekend. My heart breaks to see the wonderful, kind, and talented people who have left the church over this issue. I wish there were more acceptance. The church is losing a large number of members over its policy toward gay people.

  • Praise the Lord
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:18 p.m.

    I left the Church of Utah and converted to a real religion that treats everyone with respect.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:24 p.m.

    re--- Children of gays attracted 2 gay | 12:33 p.m

    ["Pearson's childhood would have led her to form an attraction to a specific kind of man which has a lot in common with her father. That attraction would have led her to be attracted to a homosexual. Just like my friend. So what about people who are attracted to the same sex? Think about it!!!"]

    really pathetic analysis. don't quit your day job.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:35 p.m.

    to--- Evidence it's a mental illness | 12:41 p.m

    ["Here is another example of a child of a gay man either becoming gay or marrying a gay person like Pearson.

    Do you begin to see the connection? Pearson's father died of AIDS so she marry's a gay man. Your nephew's father was gay so he struggles with homosexuality"]

    don't you mean physical illness? or hereditary? based on your weak analysis, it appears that being gay may be hereditary.

    so what is you and your church's solution to a hereditary problem? do you start makig gays live in some isolated town so the gay gene can be isolated? come on - we want to know - what's your answer to this hereditary sin-gene?

  • re --- To Just Me... | 12:42 pm
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:38 p.m.

    ["Uh, this is an article about gay Mormons who want the church to change its stance on homosexuality to suit their desires, and in the meantime, will do whatever they want without regard to what the religion actually teaches. Members of the LDS church who are trying as hard as they can to keep the commandments, and to change the desires they have that run contrary to the gospel, have every right to comment on this issue"]

    gay isn't in any of the commandments, and it's not addressed in the bible (unless you take great liberties to see it that way.) so gay people are living by the commandments.

    what don't you get? why should they change their desires when there's nothing wrong with it?

    the church should change its stance because there's nothing wrong with being gay. but they're just to stuck in the 1800s to see it...

  • what's ugly
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:45 p.m.

    What's the ugliest thing of all to me is how people take a single belief...their belief...that homosexuality is a sin. They take that single, belief, and put it at odds with all the other beliefs they are supposed to adhere to...if they are truly followers of Christ. The greatest commandment of all is to love one another...especially our own children. Yet mormon children are often banished, the love of parents and others is pulled back, and the suffering of some of these young children who come forward that all to often they are pressured so badly that they kill themselves.

    I have never heard once in the time since Christ came that same sex attraction or even mating is punishable by death. Not once. But indirectly, mormons heap this death sentence on their own children. You have no right to pressure a child so much that they turn to ending their life. SHAME on all of you who do. Your reward awaits you someday. They will be embraced, you'll be shunned for the true love you withhold from these children. You self righteous protectors of good need to back off. They deserve love.

  • re --- Duh | 8:27 p.m.
    Sept. 21, 2009 2:48 p.m.

    ["That is the biggest problem with society today, change all the laws to accomodate whatever man wants, not God. God has always been the same, just because we live in a different era does not mean God is going to change."]

    only one problem. you have no clue what God wants. you have people that say they get revelations, but we all know they don't. you follow a "prophet" but we all know he's not.

    you are simply guessing what God wants - and my guess is as good as yours - and I think God doesn't care if you are gay or not. duh...

  • on gays
    Sept. 21, 2009 3:48 p.m.

    leviticus 11 terms eating shellfish an abomination. How many of you anti-gays eat shellfish?

  • Purpose ?
    Sept. 21, 2009 4:07 p.m.

    Re to Re to Re to Re to Re to Re;
    Change, Change, Change, Change, Change, Change, your time will come. When it does, will you be ready to answer for your bleeding hearts. Can you see it? A place where imorality is the norm! Stand up and be counted. Time is short! This article is one of many. So be ready to defend what is right and just. Love thy neibour, not make love to him or her! All the children aborted, all the broken homes, all the broken hearts. Stop the wholsale crime spree of imorality. The mob mentality is of the devil.

  • Arrogance
    Sept. 21, 2009 4:14 p.m.

    How contemptuaouly arrogant to assert that one can pick and choose whichever religious tenets that happen to appeal to one at any given time and that the religion should change with one's pwersonal whims.

    Yeah, like we didn't know that, but thanks for confirming it in print!

  • re on gays
    Sept. 21, 2009 4:19 p.m.

    Are you kidding? Apples and Oranges! Anti-gay is a label that is flawed. Anti-sin is better. And before you dole out more kidding, Wrong is wrong is wrong. If you choose to egnore sin, then you have choosen haven't you. All we can do in this life is strive do what is right. Not change the definition of what is right, to satifiy a perversion. This article is an example of just this type of behavior. The challenges in life are many, and is this realy a behaviour you want to defend? to what end? Spend your time helping ones that can't help them selves.

  • to - Purpose ? | 4:07 p.m
    Sept. 21, 2009 4:48 p.m.

    ["So be ready to defend what is right and just. Love thy neibour, not make love to him or her! All the children aborted, all the broken homes, all the broken hearts. Stop the wholsale crime spree of imorality. The mob mentality is of the devil."]

    wow - you're one scary person. too bad you don't have a clue about right and wrong.

  • TO --- re on gays | 4:19 p.m
    Sept. 21, 2009 4:57 p.m.

    ["Are you kidding? Apples and Oranges! Anti-gay is a label that is flawed. Anti-sin is better. And before you dole out more kidding, Wrong is wrong is wrong. If you choose to egnore sin, then you have choosen haven't you. All we can do in this life is strive do what is right. Not change the definition of what is right, to satifiy a perversion"]

    apples and oranges? why, because you said so? what makes eating shellfish (an abomination, per the bible) any more or less than being gay?

    actually I can answer that - first, bible is silent on being gay but SPECIFICALLY states eating shellfish is a sin. second, being gay is from God whereas eating shellfish is a choice.

    so you may think it's apples and oranges, but it's really sin vs no sin - and eating shellfish is a sin per the bible, while being gay isn't.

    so don't change to definition in the bible simply because you like shellfish. and don't persecute gays simply because you don't like them and your leaders told you it was bad.

  • To Arrogance at 4:19
    Sept. 21, 2009 5:07 p.m.

    I would bet that you pick and choose which tenets to follow from the bible. Have you ever eaten shellfish, worn clothing that is made from a poly cotton blend, or clipped your beard? These are all abominations according to God(See Leviticus). Human beings have a brain and some even use it. It's time to rationally evaluate our beliefs and cast off those that have no place in our modern world.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 21, 2009 7:08 p.m.

    Thank god for Glenn Beck. He represents the mormons exactly the way they deserve to be represented. Good for you.

  • To commentor at 12:52
    Sept. 21, 2009 8:54 p.m.

    "gay isn't in any of the commandments, and it's not addressed in the bible (unless you take great liberties to see it that way.) so gay people are living by the commandments."

    ..."Thou shalt not lie with another man as though would a woman. It is an abomination."

    What part of that is taking great liberties to see homosexuality being addressed in the Bible? It's most definitely in there, and it's most definitely labeled as a sin. And it is labeled as such repeatedly, in both the Old and New Testaments.

  • Re: To Arrogance...
    Sept. 21, 2009 8:57 p.m.

    "It's time to rationally evaluate our beliefs and cast off those that have no place in our modern world."

    And who gets to decide what's right in our modern world and what isn't? I don't recall Christ ever saying that we should follow the commandments until we decide they aren't applicable anymore. He said we should follow the commandments, end of sentence. There were no qualifiers.

  • A Reader
    Sept. 21, 2009 9:26 p.m.

    This article certainly generated a lot of diverse views. What a good article should do.

  • Re TO 4:19PM
    Sept. 22, 2009 1:59 a.m.

    Your the most mis-informed of the the bunch. If you actually believe in the Bible, and have read it, you may remember Leviticus 18:22 or may be 20:13 or may be Romans 1:26,27 just to ref a few. But even though you will argue the logic of it, your heart is hardened, and I for one, will never change your mind. Only God can soften your heart. The deeper question is; why after all the years since christ, has this subject become a flash piont? The state of man kind is becoming increasingly imoral. What is the result? Look around, are you from a broken family? How many do you know? I could go on, but I'll save it for another day.

  • Um...
    Sept. 22, 2009 8:52 a.m.

    .... there appears to be a lot of people who don't understand the LDS religion. Many of the members.

  • Come back!
    Sept. 22, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    The terms on which you do so are less important than whether or not you do.

    We love and value every child of God. We are ALL children of God, beggars before Him for forgiveness of our sin and working to better our lives. That's the purpose of the Church.

    Our doctrine is not to exclude you, but rather to welcome you. 3 Ne. 18: 32 commands us not to "cast [you] out of [our] synagogues, or [our] places of worship, for unto such shall ye continue to minister; for ye know not but what they will return and repent, and come unto me with full purpose of heart, and I shall heal them; and ye shall be the means of bringing salvation unto them.

    So come on back. On God's terms if you can -- on whatever other terms if you can't. You'll be welcome. And we'll minister to you, and pray together that God will heal us and bring us all to salvation.

  • censoring
    Sept. 22, 2009 9:41 a.m.

    Spectacular censoring on the part of dn. I have repeatedly posted that nowhere in the N.T. is there any "man lying with man" quote and such will not be posted. I have posted that 3 times in Lev. 11 it states that eating shellfish is an "abomination" and that Jesus states he did not come to change the law which clearly means that food commandments still apply as abomination. So, have you kicked your kids out of the house for eating shellfish? Of course not because YOU think shrimp taste good while not being innately homosexual. It's the cafeteria where you pick and chose. Remember the scripture that discusses beams and specks? Perhaps you need to revisit those verses.

  • Weedeater
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:01 a.m.

    Humans are born with a wide spectrum of desires. The Church now mostly agrees (except for a few holdouts) that people are born "that way". The current policy is to chastise members only for "acting on" "those feelings".

    Can you see the shift, the softening of the stance on this issue? Just 5-10 years ago just having SGA feelings was sinful and many generations before now have grown up hating themselves, fighting themselves (daily) over it.

  • Re: Praise the Lord
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:06 a.m.

    "I left the Church of Utah and converted to a real religion that treats everyone with respect."

    Let me see if I can summarize. You are saying you left the LDS church because you didn't want to abide by all of the Lord's teachings. You instead wanted to be able to pick and choose to live by the teachings that you decided to follow and on your own terms, instead of on the Lord's terms. And finally, you wanted to pick a religion where you wouldn't be held accountable for anything you did or didn't do. In other words, you wanted to be in a religion of convenience.
    Was I pretty close with that assessment?

  • Weedeater 2
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    The expression of love within personal relationships is subject to changing POLICIES not changing PRINCIPLES. Mormons, who once solemnly embraced polygamy as fully righteous, should understand that marriage relationships are maleable and subject to changing policies as dictated by the living prophet. Polygamy was a shifting policy, love and stewardship are the eternal priciples.

    For those who rely on dead scripture to justify their current views, the few scriptural condemnations of SGA will be rationalized in the future just like other scriptural rationalizations (women talking in church, head wear, polygamy, etc.) as cultural/policy relativism- those things were acceptable then but not now. Most likely instruction manuals will simply ignore those verses like we do now for other practices where current policy clashes with scripture. Enlightened modern prophets will always trump past generations.

    Give it 20-30 years more and I predict a more substantial, perhaps full, shift toward acceptance and allowance of all forms of human desire. Can you not see the Lord preparing his people for more enlightenment?

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:26 a.m.

    In the early days of the restoration, if people didn't like the way things were, they broke off and started their own church. No one is stopping you from doing that. Just don't expect the main body of the church to support your perversions. May you be as successful as all those other early offshoots.

  • Multiply and Replenish the Earth
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:30 a.m.

    That is why we are here...

  • to multiply
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:45 a.m.

    Your only purpose in life is to multiply and replenish the earth? You sound like a queen ant or bee. What a sad sad life.

  • One person's sin...
    Sept. 22, 2009 10:53 a.m.

    One person's sind should not excuse another. Anyone persecuting another for their sexual preferences is wrong. Shunning someone and/or discriminating against them because of their preferences is also wrong. However, people's inability to come to grips with someone close to them being gay in no way excuses the gay person from being responsible for their own actions. Both sides have things to work on. One side needs to find a way to overcome or at least control their same sex attraction. The other side needs to work harder and loving unconditionally. Both sides have their weeknesses and need to work to overcome them.

    One again Christ is the perfect example. He freely associated with sinners of every kind. His treatment of the adultress shows us the way. It's not our place to persecute her (or gays) for their misdeeds to the point of death. However, Christ's words to her is equally applicable to gays as well. Go and sin no more. Overcome your unrighteous tendancies.

  • JS
    Sept. 22, 2009 11:00 a.m.

    re: Weedeater
    Boy, you are way out there!

  • Gay people can change
    Sept. 22, 2009 11:05 a.m.

    Back when I was in high school, my seminar teacher had a former student who was gay, but then he went on a mission and practiced true prayer and fasting, and he was able to change the desires of his heart and he was able to get married in the temple and have a wonderful family. We all can change the desires of our heart by true fasting and prayer. The gay people who I have met are good people, and all they need to do is continue fasting and prayer and the change will come. That is what Alma teaches us.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 11:05 a.m.

    Multiply and Replenish the Earth | 10:30 a.m. Sept. 22, 2009
    "That is why we are here"

    Really? I guess my poor nephew who's wife cannot have a child should just divorce her and marry someone who can if that is why we are here.

  • to: mom
    Sept. 22, 2009 11:06 a.m.

    i am sorry that your son is gay. whether or not he is decent is not my place to say, for i do not know him. however, just because a person is decent and kind and loving, it doesn't mean that person is not sinning. there are plenty of loving non violent people who do nothing but kind acts and then defraud peple and steal from others. are these people kind? maybe, it depends on the person. but it doesn't change the fact that they are sinning. no one is saying all gays are 100% evil and devil worshippers. we are simply saying that they are sinning. it is true that it is not our place to judge, but that does not mean that we have to accept every sinful behavior as moral and rightous. it just doesn't work that way.

  • JS
    Sept. 22, 2009 11:17 a.m.

    The title of this article is "Gay Mormon's seek to be independant"
    Alright, I can agree with the concept of the title!
    If they want to be independant - then let them! I don't have a problem with that in fact I have often wondered why they just did not start their own church, but I read in the comments that there have been two churches started by and for gay LDS. So why cannot they be happy with them? Why do they still feel that they need to change the basic tenents of the LDS faith?
    The truth seems to be that they are not satisfied with going there own way and being "independant" What they really want is for everyone to change to ACCEPT them and not just LDS but all Christians! And YES!!!!!! in my book LDS are Christians.
    In looking in my King James Bible... I find it mentioned 3 x's in the OT and and 4x's in the NT.

    This REALLY seems to me to be part of the weeding out process that was fortold to happened before the second comeing. The real question is then - where do you stand?

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 12:30 p.m.

    To Come Back!

    We can't hear you because of the sound of all the self-righteous haters in the Church telling us to go away and start our own Church!

  • xbish
    Sept. 22, 2009 1:21 p.m.

    No human being can tell any other human being the mind of God. Humans may only tell other humans what he/she thinks is the mind of God. How can one even be sure that God is a he? Then what does one do about the whole sexual attraction thing? These rules are MAN's rules made up by men to be able to rein over weaker humans. Obediance to these rules is to allow oneself to be slave to them! All religion is simply an attempt to rein over others and gain fame and/or money!

  • Bill
    Sept. 22, 2009 2:03 p.m.

    To xbish:

    "Whether I the Lord have spoken I have spoken, and I excuse not myself; and though the heavens and the earth pass away, my word shall not pass away, but shall all be fulfilled, whether by mine own voice or by the voice of my servants, it is the SAME."

    This is the will of God as he has spoken through his Prophet Joseph Smith. He has also stated, "Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the PROPHETS." This is stated in Amos of the Old Testament.

    "And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone."

    God calls prophets to be his mouthpiece. God is a kind, loving Heavenly Father who wishes the best for all of his children. Every man, woman and child that has been born and will be born are all spirit children of our Heavenly Father. As Joseph the Prophet of the Dispensation for the Fulness of times has stated, God, the Father and his son, Jesus Christ did literally speak to him in 1820. Nothing has changed. God is a man and speaks today.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 2:29 p.m.

    Why did GB Hinckley say that the LDS church didn't know if gays were born with same sex attraction or not when asked by Larry King. He was the PROPHET at the time! This is just a seventy giving his opinion, right? Or has the church had a revelation since GBH?

  • Mc
    Sept. 22, 2009 3:14 p.m.

    @weadeater

    Don't hold your breath expecting the Church to change its position on gay marriage. Elder Oaks recently reaffirmed what was said by the First Presidency in 1991: “The Lord’s law of moral conduct is abstinence outside of lawful marriage and fidelity within marriage. Sexual relations are proper only between husband and wife, appropriately expressed within the bonds of marriage. Any other sexual conduct, including fornication, adultery, and homosexual and lesbian behavior is sinful. Those who persist in such practices or influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline.”

    The Church has said we don't know whether people are born with homosexual tendencies or not, but it doesn't matter. Homosexual behavior is a sin either way. I don't expect you to accept that, but there are lots of faithful members who need to understand that and not waste this mortal life waiting for the Church to say homosexuality is okay. It goes against the whole Plan of Salvation, so it will never be okay.

  • To Lambert | 11:08 a.m
    Sept. 22, 2009 3:34 p.m.

    Your statement is too logical for the gay rights crowd to understand. They do a lot of things that defy logic.

  • To Re: Praise the Lord | 10:06 a
    Sept. 22, 2009 3:37 p.m.

    You hit the nail on the head.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 3:46 p.m.

    If gay Mormons want to live Mormonism by their terms that is okay by me, but they are going to have a rough time reconciling this scripture by living this way.

    IN the celestial glory there are three heavens or degrees;

    And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage
    And if he does not, he cannot obtain it.

    He may enter into the other, but that is the end of his kingdom; he cannot have an increase.

    D&C131:1-4

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 3:54 p.m.

    "And in order to obtain the highest, a man must enter into this order of the priesthood meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage
    And if he does not, he cannot obtain it."

    You know that is about polygamy, don't you?

  • Mc
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:16 p.m.

    Anonymous | 2:29 p.m

    There are lots of things the Lord hasn't spelled out for mankind yet, because we are to live by faith in this life. When it's essential for our salvation to know or do something He has told us through our prophets. He has said that eternal marriage is essential and that it is to be a man and a woman.

    It does not matter whether same sex attraction is from nurture or nature. I suspect that in some it may be nature and in others it is a choice, but it just doesn't matter. God allows us to have afflictions to grow from and learn from, but He has promised not to give us anything we can't overcome.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    "He has promised not to give us anything we can't overcome."

    BUT, Elder Oaks AND Elder Hafen have said that some gays may not overcome it in this life and will have to wait until the resurrection to be healed. Is that overcoming it or just controlling it?

  • pick and choose beliefs
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:33 p.m.

    Re: Praise the Lord | 10:06 a.m says
    "Let me see if I can summarize. You are saying you left the LDS church because you didn't want to abide by all of the Lord's teachings. You instead wanted to be able to pick and choose to live by the teachings that you decided to follow and on your own terms, instead of on the Lord's terms"]

    then Weedeater 2 | 10:07 a.m says:
    "Enlightened modern prophets will always trump past generations." in other words, the leaders of the church decide what your guiding princilples are...

    so you all in fact pick and choose what you will follow. in fact, others at least make up their own minds. you all allow some small group of people (that you think are "prophets") to tell you what to do and not do. you pick and choose, and can't even do it for yourselves!!

  • TO - Um... | 8:52 a.m
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:39 p.m.

    ["there appears to be a lot of people who don't understand the LDS religion. Many of the members"]

    does that surprise you? it is a pretty far-fetched idea....

  • to - One person's sin... | 10:53
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:43 p.m.

    ["One again Christ is the perfect example. He freely associated with sinners of every kind. His treatment of the adultress shows us the way. It's not our place to persecute her (or gays) for their misdeeds to the point of death. However, Christ's words to her is equally applicable to gays as well. Go and sin no more. Overcome your unrighteous tendancies"]

    your assumption is that being gay or same sex marriage/relationships is a sin... nothing in the bible about that... but let me ask - do you eat shellfish? aren't you afraid you will be doomed to satan since Jesus said it's an abomination?

    oh - wait - you get to pick your beliefs... and you like shellfish but don't like gays... how utterly convenient...

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:45 p.m.

    TO -- Gay people can change | 11:05 a.m.

    ["Back when I was in high school, my seminar teacher had a former student who was gay, but then he went on a mission and practiced true prayer and fasting, and he was able to change the desires of his heart and he was able to get married in the temple and have a wonderful family"]

    your assumption is that they want to change. the ONLY reason they want to change is so they don't get put down by people like you.

  • I getta Kick...
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:49 p.m.

    out of the "Burger King - Have it your way" mentality that a lot of people have when their belief's don't coincide with scriptures or doctrine. Sorry folks, the Lord said STRAIGHT is the way (no pun intended). His ways are NOT your ways. Yes GOD LOVES YOU...But does NOT like your lifestyle or sexual choices. Sorry but THAT is the Truth. Of course you can establish your own Church and HAVE IT YOUR WAY...

  • Weedeater
    Sept. 22, 2009 4:51 p.m.

    Principles and policies regarding marriage:

    "And in order to obtain the highest (degree of glory in heaven), a man must enter into this order of the priesthood meaning the new and everlasting covenant of marriage. And if he does not, he cannot obtain it."

    Exactly, marriage is the PRINCIPLE, but different marriage arrangements are the POLICY. Polygamy is an example. Gay marriage will be accepted, but the Lord's servants have more work to do to soften the hearts of his people and to prepare them for a change in policy.

    We are just at the beginning of this process. The policy is already evolving from SGA feelings being evil to SGA being acceptable if not acted upon. The next step in this process is being laid right now. That is, that being gay is OK but, as all other sexual acts, chastity and abtinence outside marriage continues to be an eternal priciple.

    The process must go slow enough that the rank and file can digest it. Think how far the above description is from even 10 years ago when SGA was sinful!

  • TO -- Mc | 3:14 p.m.
    Sept. 22, 2009 5:03 p.m.

    ["Sexual relations are proper only between husband and wife, appropriately expressed within the bonds of marriage. Any other sexual conduct, including fornication, adultery, and homosexual and lesbian behavior is sinful. Those who persist in such practices or influence others to do so are subject to Church discipline.” "]

    that's ok - your church can discipline all they want. what you fail to realize is that God doesn't care. He wants everyone to be happy, and as long as achieving that doesn't hurt anyone else, He doesn't care what you do.

    your problem is that a lot of what you do hurts other people (such as your position on SSM), so while all those people that you say are "sinners" (who haven't actually harmed anyone) flow through the pearly gates, you will have to sit in the judgement room, awaiting your penance...

  • re - Anonymous | 4:27 p.m
    Sept. 22, 2009 5:11 p.m.

    ["BUT, Elder Oaks AND Elder Hafen have said that some gays may not overcome it in this life and will have to wait until the resurrection to be healed"]

    and aren't those that follow that going to feel pretty stupid if there is no such thing? should you really use up this life against your nature in the hopes that you have more lives?

  • talking points
    Sept. 22, 2009 5:28 p.m.

    This gets quite boring posting talking points about not eating shell fish and other such quotes from which basically was the law of carnal commandments for the Jews until Christ came to abolish that law. But homosexuality was still considered a sin else why did Paul the apostle condemn it? Yes indeed homosexuality was preached against in the New Testament. Read Romans 1st chapter for a real eye opening.

  • Pharisees and Sadducees
    Sept. 22, 2009 5:34 p.m.

    Jesus spent most of his time with the sick, the afflicted, the sinners -- not with the self-righteous, know-it-all Pharisees and Sadducees. After reading these posts, is there any doubt with whom he would spend his time? The self-righteous Pharisees? Or the "sinning" men, women, and children? I'll put my bet. . . and my faith. . . on the "sinner."

  • Re: TO -- Mc
    Sept. 22, 2009 5:51 p.m.

    "that's ok - your church can discipline all they want. what you fail to realize is that God doesn't care. He wants everyone to be happy, and as long as achieving that doesn't hurt anyone else, He doesn't care what you do."

    Or in other words, "Eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die."

    The Lord DOES care what you do, as has been repeated over and over and over again in the scriptures. Whether you choose to believe it or not is your decision, but He has clearly revealed His will, and His will is that we follow His commandments.

  • sa
    Sept. 22, 2009 6:07 p.m.

    Gays should be open and not marry with deception those who are straight in the temple.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 22, 2009 6:32 p.m.

    talking points,

    Paul was a wannabe Pharisee who joined the Christian folk movement because he got drummed out of Pharisee school.

    He also wrote a lot of hateful things about women. Do you follow those teachings to the letter? -oh, never mind. You probably actually DO! That's the problem!

  • Oliver
    Sept. 23, 2009 1:10 a.m.

    I knew a gay guy. He woke up in the morning and had breakfast. Then he went work. He worked with kids and was pretty good at that. He helped a lot of kids. Then he came home from work, had dinner and watched tv or met his friends for fun and distraction.

    So, what was "gay" about his lifestyle? If you mean he was a happy person and made others smile, ok, I admit, he lived a gay lifestyle. Other than that though, I thought he was just a regular guy, living a regular live (= normal lifestyle).

  • Savant
    Sept. 23, 2009 8:44 a.m.

    I feel for gay Mormons, I won't even pretend to understand what their lives must be like. I think the 200 or so comments on this board are mostly hateful (from both sides) and do nothing to help the situation.

    We must continue to love the sinner and hate the sin. Those who can't love the sinner will be judged accordingly in the final accounting.

    Those who cannot hate the sin (or don't even consider it a sin for that matter) have several other options for religions.

    The only explanation I can come up with as to why people continue to hammer the LDS church instead of just finding a different church (or no church) is because they like to persecute. There isn't any other logical explanation.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 23, 2009 8:44 a.m.

    REF:T0---re on gays
    What a joke that you can simply answer that the bible is silent on gays but not on shellfish...for one you have totally unrelated doctrinal subjects. Two... unless I missed something there has been no 2nd counsel of the Niacene whereby additional books have been taken out of what we know today as the Kings James version of the bible. And 3rd...God has not been silent on gays. You might actually try reading the bible. Try these scrips and then try and tell me that God is silent on Homosexuality...you can't... it's totally impossible. The first use of the word effeminate was used in 1st Corinthians in regards to carnally abusing men as if they were women.

    Leviticus 18:22...it's an abomination

    Leviticus 20:13...God demanded they be put to death

    Deuteronomy 23:17...there's to be No Sodomites in Israel

    Romans 1:24-27*** Please note this one in particular. It describes people like you... wanting to change subject truth into lies.

    1st Corinthians 6:9... effeminate...

    1st Timothy 1:10...defiling themselves with men...

    Jude 1:7...Homosexuality is going after strange flesh...

  • @5:03
    Sept. 23, 2009 8:48 a.m.

    WOW! I can engage in any kind of carnal behavior that I want and God will not care as long as I am happy.

    How about committing adultery with 100 women but using all of the safety precautions I need not to cause any spread of disease or pregnancy. I don't tell anyone and neither do they. This fits your criteria. And best of all I go through the pearly gates while anyone who teaches self discipline and keeping the commandments are condemned.

    Seriously did you just post this to be funny.

  • VBfriend
    Sept. 23, 2009 9:42 a.m.

    To Mormon on your own terms: Blindly following is not what I was taught in church. You should be asking the Lord on your own before judging others. Blindly following kept Blacks from receiving the priesthood, because nobody wanted to take the time to ask. It is your responsibility as a member of any faith to confirm the teachings by asking in prayer. Maybe we would see a little more tolerance and less judgement then.

  • to savant
    Sept. 23, 2009 9:57 a.m.

    "The only explanation I can come up with as to why people continue to hammer the LDS church instead of just finding a different church (or no church) is because they like to persecute. There isn't any other logical explanation."


    Affirmation members are in a different place. They are not willing to let go of the church. It is their right to work out their struggles however they can to wrestle with this disconnect. It is not easy to let go of everything you have been taught since a baby yet have a personal truth of your sexual orientation. If you haven't been there, you cannot understand.

    It is also each LDS members right of free agency to act towards these people any way that they want to. If they feel that they are sinners and need to be avoided, they will avoid them. If they want to gossip about them, they will, If they want to love them and not treat them any different than they would anyone else in the church, they will. Each will find their own way to deal with homosexuals. My experience was to be shunned by the church members.

  • RE --- @5:03 | 8:48 a.m.
    Sept. 23, 2009 10:01 a.m.

    ["WOW! I can engage in any kind of carnal behavior that I want and God will not care as long as I am happy. How about committing adultery with 100 women"]

    adultery means one of you is married, so it hurts the other spouse. how can you be so naive as to not know that?

    what about not harming others do you not get? what about following the 10 commandments do you not get?

    is there something about gays in the 10 commandments? no - instead you pour through a book written by man to find obscure passages to say gay is wrong. and then you ignore the ones on shellfish, etc since you like shrimp.

    yes, you CAN do ANYTHING you want as long as you are happy, and you don't cause harm to others. unfortunately for mopst mormons, their stance on gay marriage causes a lot of harm to others, while gay marriage causes no harm (and actually helps).

    so you answer the question - who will get in easier? the nice people that cause no harm to others, or the mean-spirited mormons that cause dispare to an entire group of people (3%-4% of the population?)

  • re - Frank Lee Scarlet | 8:44 am
    Sept. 23, 2009 10:08 a.m.

    ["The first use of the word effeminate was used in 1st Corinthians in regards to carnally abusing men as if they were women."]

    abusing anyone is wrong. it was the abuse that was the problem, not who was being abused.

    ["Leviticus 20:13...God demanded they be put to death"]

    wow - nice god you have there. same one that wanted abraham to kill his child, right? no wonder you treat gays so poorly. your god taught you to act this way.

    Fortunately, my God is kind and just and wants everyone to lead a happy and fulfilling life. The only rule is the golden rule - which covers not causing harm to others. and you all break that rule all the time. not even sure how you call yourselves christians...

    and I know the bible was written by man and not God because it states that you should worship God. yet God is not vain, and wouldn't want to be worshipped. the bible is what some men THOUGHT God wanted, but they blew it by putting too much hate, control, and idolism into it.

    If they try again, tell them to leave all that stuff out so it's believable.

  • Oliver
    Sept. 23, 2009 10:12 a.m.

    Frank Lee Scarlet,

    Yes those Scriptures are often times quoted by gay haters like you. It may be interesting for you to know that 1 Corinthians is not referring to homosexual individuals, but male prostitution ( see greek original of the NT). Sex for money and sex between two individuals who love each other -- quite a different thing, isn't it?

    Strange flesh- What makes you so sure that means homosexuality? Please explain. Also, what is it with people like you that you always bring up the Sodom and Gomorrah thing. Do you really believe it was destroyed because gay people lived there? If so, I feel bad for you. And if you really believe it, what do you base that belief on?

    In the whole corpus of the bible, there are maybe two or three scriptures that actually talk about homosexuality. Stop writing down this list of scriptures nonsense.

  • Mathhew 7:2
    Sept. 23, 2009 10:26 a.m.

    "For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

    Let's be a little more tolerant toward our gay brothers and sisters.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 23, 2009 11:11 a.m.

    Ref:___re @5:03
    God telling his people to be putting to death anyone guilty of homosexuality sounds pretty darn mean to me... whereas being told that eating a few shrimp is not healthy sure has a ring of quite a lot disparity in terms of severity...unless you wish to try and rationalize that he should treat all sins big or little equally....I mean that is what you are doing..right...rationalizing. This whole story is about rationalizing...about off shooting...about leaving the church because you want things your way. I haven't the foggiest of why you feel that my thinking that God has set forth explicit standards and that taking a stand to uphold those standards has hurt you or anybody else. Is it not you and those who are in the predicament of this particular sin (and we are all sinners....I'm realistic...) who are on the attack while the church is on the defensive. This is no different than at the time of Moses coming off the mount to find the Golden Calf. God had him tell the people to Chose this Day whom they will serve.

  • Larry
    Sept. 23, 2009 11:49 a.m.

    The problem for these people is that they are so culturally brainwashed into believing that their religion (LDS, Catholic, Orthodox Jewish, Muslim - whatever) etc. is absolutely right that they want to be part of the club that doesn't want them as members. It is very hard to shake off the shackles of religious narrowmindedness and live your life in freedom and peace as the child of God the way He created you. It is very easy for those who are not challenged with a particular issue to pronounce judgment upon those who are so challenged. My own belief is that God will sort us out at the end, and boy are there going to be a LOT of surprises!

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 23, 2009 12:16 p.m.

    "This is no different than at the time of Moses coming off the mount to find the Golden Calf. God had him tell the people to Chose this Day whom they will serve. "

    BTW, that was Joshua.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 23, 2009 12:30 p.m.

    everyone (not just the LDS) have free agency. Everyone has the right to an opinion but it doesn't give them the right to judge others.

  • whay I say goes theory
    Sept. 23, 2009 1:02 p.m.

    "The idea of a God that makes you jump through hoops, that says you're not supposed to be gay, is just wrong. The truth is, not only does God not care, but he loves each and every one of us." So where did this bit of wrong minded, homespun , nonsense come from? Not from scripture that's for sure. This woman thinks she can "make up " her own home spun version of Christianity taking this and that from the bible and throwing away the parts that don't support her twisted ideals. Sorry but that's not the way it works people! Christ gave COMMANDMENTS - not suggestions and if we have an open mind and heart we will discover His truth. No hoop jumping necessary. Homosexuality is a sin condemned by the Apostle Paul as well as modern day revelation. Even the ancient Catholic church recognized the clear teaching that homosexual behavior was a sin. I would suggest that the author of this comment section refer to Elder Jeffery R. Holland and Dallan H. Oaks past conference addresses regarding homosexuality and avoid any more "home spun" bible editing.

  • Mc
    Sept. 23, 2009 2:01 p.m.

    "everyone (not just the LDS) have free agency. Everyone has the right to an opinion but it doesn't give them the right to judge others."

    Who says we don't have the right to judge others? We don't have the right to make legally binding judgements or eternal judgements, but we all make judgements everyday about who we want to spend time with, trust our money to, allow to teach or influence our children, etc. It's just part of life and we all have the right to make those kinds of judgements. If we don't make good judgements we may suffer some unpleasant consequences personally and societally. We do have a responsibility to judge fairly and righteously, but that doesn't mean we have to embrace sinful behavior in order to be fair.

  • JW Morrison
    Sept. 23, 2009 2:03 p.m.

    The Church always invites the imperfect to return and it is no different with those who are gay. However, they also must understand that they will not be able to participate in all aspects of the Church. Everyone of us has our imperfections and we must be honest with ourselves when dealing with them. Each weakness we have is an opportunity to become stronger. When I was in my early teens I was attracted to the same sex, yet I never acted on it. Does that make me gay? I have many imperfections and I try to overcome them as we all should. As for members of the Church, I hope that they will love the person while not tolerating the sin. While it may be hard, we must never forget that as God's children we can change ourselves to become more like Him.

  • to -- Frank Lee Scarlet | 11:11
    Sept. 23, 2009 2:13 p.m.

    ["I haven't the foggiest of why you feel that my thinking that God has set forth explicit standards and that taking a stand to uphold those standards has hurt you or anybody else"]

    well, that's simple. God doesn't care if gays marry but you and your church do everything you can to prevent these people from being happy. so you are not even following the golden rule, the MAIN rule. instead, you take obscure passages from a book written by men, based on what THEY think God wants, and force it onto anyone you can... so you are harming others, who are causing you no harm. it's mean and spiteful. is that clear enough for you? still in the fog?

    ["God telling his people to be putting to death anyone guilty of homosexuality sounds pretty darn mean to me... whereas being told that eating a few shrimp is not healthy sure has a ring of quite a lot disparity in terms of severity"]

    the bible says that eating shellfish is an abomination - same word you all continually quote for homosexuality... so per your bible, they are both the same level of sin...

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 23, 2009 2:29 p.m.

    REF: Anonymous a.k.a.Any Mouse

    BTW... Big Deal "Who is on the Lord's side? Let him come onto me" and "Choose ye this day whom you will serve" are synonymous" and both Joshua and Moses were present together when both lines were spoken. What matters and is of concern here is what was the prevailing situation that caused the inquisitions . Do they follow God or do they just go about doing whatever they want...which at the time was all manner of iniquity and unholy activity??? Sound familiar here.

    REF: Oliver
    Sure easy for you too get into name calling isn't it?? BTW... I don't hate Gays...just people who don't read all my posts on this site first before shooting off their mouths. Disagreeing in and of itself does not constitute hate. You need to spend less time reading the stuff on bathroom walls and more time actually knowing what we are discussing here. If there is anyone here with initial hate and contempt it's you.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 23, 2009 2:33 p.m.

    Look, the simple fact is, we're talking about gay MORMONS. That means, if they have any sort of a testimony at all, they believe in a literal reading of the scriptures, they believe in a living prophet and apostles, and they believe in continuing revelation. Whether you believe in those things or not, you have to base your arguments for their position on THEIR beliefs.

    Because they do believe all of that, pointing out what the scriptures, what the living prophet and apostles, and what continuing revelation has each said is a valid argument in this case.

    If, as they claim, they believe the church is true, then using church doctrine to counter their claims makes perfect sense. It does no good to babble on about inborn traits and genetics, because that's not what the article is talking about.

    The issue the LDS church has with homosexuality is not that the feelings exist, but that acting on those impulses runs contrary to the law of chastity as defined in scripture, by living prophets and apostles, and by continuing revelation. It is not the inclinations, nor the people involved, but the ACTIONS that are being condemned. Big difference.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 23, 2009 3:00 p.m.

    "but that doesn't mean we have to embrace sinful behavior in order to be fair. "

    To "embrace" sin would mean that you would partake in it. To tolerate sin (and by doing so, love the sinner) would mean to allow those who sin to do so without withholding any love or wihholding any secular benefits that you enjoy IF they are not harming another.

    This is the American way.

  • Vince
    Sept. 23, 2009 3:34 p.m.

    Frank Lee Scarlet | 8:44 a.m. Sept. 23, 2009


    I think you just proved your own interpretation's fault.

    Deut 20:13 - that they be put to death.

    You really want to parade that scripture around?

    The Church would be embarrassed that you dug that one up.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    NOW that's a pretty far reach and a very convenient spin to say that eating shellfish and homosexuality are the same level of sin. Obviously you thrive on contention and you don't believe in the bible anyways which means that you must not be LDS...and that's ok. But there has been a precedent set and long recorded historically that even among almost every non christian society they have treated homosexuality as a deviation from the norm...and very seriously I might add... from simple shunning, castigation, vigilante persecution and onward to include imprisonment and execution...non of which would even someone like me condone. That is not what the church is fighting to protect. We fight to protect the sanctity of the historically accepted family i.e. a male Father and a female Mother with individually male and female children. The sanctity of a marriage between a man and a woman and the sanctity of the family that they create. What you chose is of your own accord...Good luck...there will come a time when all of this will come to light as to what God's intentions were. I'm comfortablein my beliefs.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:18 p.m.

    REF: Vince
    The law of Moses was the law of Moses. Your way out of bounds here and really stretching things out of proportion there Vince old buddy...Try actually going back to the actual referred postings. The guy said the bible was silent on homosexuality but not on the eating of shellfish...he was trying to play spin city. According to his because both homosexuality and eating of shellfish are abominations that they are equal sins. Hey... What's written in the bible is not a classified secret. Try reading before engaging...you're the one who looks foolish.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:20 p.m.

    mc:: God in his scriptures tells us not to judge others actions. He will be our judge in the hereafter. Many,many people have done horrible things on this earth. they will be forgiven but they will suffer the consequences of their actions. Judged by God not man

  • re --- Mc | 2:01 p.m
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:36 p.m.

    ["We don't have the right to make legally binding judgements or eternal judgements"]

    then why do you? why do you FORCE your beliefs onto others and make an entire group of people conform to your narrow vision?

    if you don't have the right to make legally binding judgements, then next time prop 8 comes up, since it has no bearing on you, perhaps you should just mind your own business... if only gays voted on it (since they are the only ones affected) then I'm pretty sure it would have passed...

  • No Such Thing
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:38 p.m.

    Article title: "Gay Mormons Seek To Be Independent"

    Sorry, but no matter what the pro-homosexual crowd says, you can't be a true Mormon and a practicing homosexual.

    On paper, if you keep your actions a secret?

    Sure.

    But to God, who sees everything?

    Nope.

    The second any member of the LDS church chooses to commit serious sin we immediatley create a chasm between us and God. It is our Creator who has said if we are not for Him we are against Him. Period.

    Don't like that? Take it up with God. He makes the rules.

    (BTW, Deseret News Posting Police....this is my second time posting this comment. Are you going to let it through this time? Let's just say I won't hold my breath....)

    Dan Maloy
    Enid, OK

  • re - JW Morrison | 2:03 p.m.
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:39 p.m.

    ["When I was in my early teens I was attracted to the same sex, yet I never acted on it. Does that make me gay?"]

    no. not in the least. not in your wildest imagination. not even close. if you were gay, you'd know it. it is a function of mixed xy chromosomes, not a slight attraction to same sex.

    I think Brad Pitt is hot, but I'm not gay.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:41 p.m.

    REF:Vince
    Didn't mean to jump on you there but you did jump in with both feet without realizing full the discussion that is going on. I'll be back I have to go to My Boy Scout meeting. I'm the Assistant Scout Master...and these boys are all non Members...They are not our own... our branch isn't big enough nor the married couples old enough to have Scout aged boys. But Homosexuals and the Boy Scouts of America don't see eye to eye either. All kinds of lawsuits going on...So far the Scouts are winning.

  • to - Frank Lee Scarlet | 2:29 pm
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:49 p.m.

    ["both Joshua and Moses were present together when both lines were spoken. What matters and is of concern here is what was the prevailing situation that caused the inquisitions . Do they follow God or do they just go about doing whatever they want...which at the time was all manner of iniquity and unholy activity??? Sound familiar here."]

    ok - I see the problem here. some of you are under the mistaken belief that the bible is an actual historical document! it's not. it's a guide to being a good person, written in story form so it's easier to understand. not unlike aesop's fables. it was written by man, in an attempt to convey what they thought God wants, but it is rife with their own personal opinions.

    if you all are just reading the bible and BOM, and considering them to be actual historical documents, and believe that everything must be followed or God will be mad at you, then I now understand why you all act the way you do.

    you may want to actually sit down some time and think about God and what He would REALLY want instead of folowing some books...

  • to - Frank Lee Scarlet | 4:04 pm
    Sept. 23, 2009 4:52 p.m.

    ["NOW that's a pretty far reach and a very convenient spin to say that eating shellfish and homosexuality are the same level of sin"]

    i never said they are the same level of sin. I said neither one is sin. but every time someone says "gay" then a mormon says "abomination", the same word used in the bible for eating shellfish.

    so it's not me saying they are the same level. it is actual mormons saying so.

  • to - Frank Lee Scarlet | 4:04 pm
    Sept. 23, 2009 5:03 p.m.

    ["That is not what the church is fighting to protect. We fight to protect the sanctity of the historically accepted family i.e. a male Father and a female Mother with individually male and female children"]

    gay marriage wil have no affect on this. gays aren't going to come to your home and break up your family.

  • re - No Such Thing | 4:38 p.m
    Sept. 23, 2009 5:07 p.m.

    ["It is our Creator who has said if we are not for Him we are against Him. Period"]

    actually, that was written by men a long time ago. but definitely God never said it. only in the minds of an overzealous religion would anyone believe God was that vain and narrowminded.

  • @10:01
    Sept. 23, 2009 5:10 p.m.

    Sorry it took so long to respond to your latest comment. Let me see if I get this right. According to you the bible is written by man and whereever homosexuality is condemned is an obscure passage.

    The comment on adultery assumes my wife would never find out so how could that hurt her. Or assume I am not married and commit fornication with over 100 different women. In your view I will go through the pearly gates but the minute I vote for Prop 8 I am condemned to an eternal punishment.

    I really don't mean to be critical like "mopst" Mormons but I am genuinely fascinated at your rationale. Honestly what is wrong with having a civil union and leaving it at that?

  • For the 2:29PM poster
    Sept. 23, 2009 5:12 p.m.

    What if the way God often communicates with His children is through those "books" you so emphatically ridicule?

    Oops....

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 23, 2009 5:25 p.m.

    re - For the 2:29PM poster | 5:12 p.m

    ["What if the way God often communicates with His children is through those "books" you so emphatically ridicule?"]

    those "books" were written hundreds of years ago. the only thing that's changed is YOUR interpretation of them, to fit your ideals. if God wanted us to follow them word for word, He wouldn't allow you to mess with them all the time.

    and He would talk about sacrificing children or any such nonsense.... there wouldn't be talking snakes... nor boats that hold 2 of every animal.. I still don't understand why you DO think it's all real...

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 23, 2009 5:33 p.m.

    ["The comment on adultery assumes my wife would never find out so how could that hurt her"]

    just because the other person doesn't find out doesn't mean they are not hurt by it. i would think you would understand that, being all christian and all..

    ["Or assume I am not married and commit fornication with over 100 different women"]

    if they want to also, what does it hurt? no one. you all have WAY too many hang-ups about sex.

    ["In your view I will go through the pearly gates but the minute I vote for Prop 8 I am condemned to an eternal punishment."]

    voting for prop 8 takes the rights away from an entire group of innocent people.

    ["what is wrong with having a civil union and leaving it at that"]

    the federal govt and many companies do not recognize civil unions. if everyone recognized civil unions to be EXACTLY like marriage, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    by the way - I'm not gay and I'm not religious. and if this was a nation of gay couples, I'd be fighting for your right to practice your religion. they are the same rights.

  • my slc
    Sept. 23, 2009 8:16 p.m.

    To come back! | 8:58 a.m. Sept. 22, 2009

    That is total rubbish; you do not want us back. You just want us to disappear.

    I am legally married and recognized by the state of California. You might remember something about that? Prop 8 perhaps.

    I am 5th generation LDS, son of a bishop. No way in heck am I ever going to consider the LDS church or Utah as my religion or state again.

  • Re: 4:49 p.m.
    Sept. 23, 2009 8:56 p.m.

    "ok - I see the problem here. some of you are under the mistaken belief that the bible is an actual historical document! it's not. it's a guide to being a good person, written in story form so it's easier to understand. not unlike aesop's fables. it was written by man, in an attempt to convey what they thought God wants, but it is rife with their own personal opinions.

    if you all are just reading the bible and BOM, and considering them to be actual historical documents, and believe that everything must be followed or God will be mad at you, then I now understand why you all act the way you do.

    you may want to actually sit down some time and think about God and what He would REALLY want instead of folowing some books..."

    All of which is just YOUR opinion. You can't prove or disprove those statements. It's just what YOU want to believe.

    Sorry, but I put a lot more stock in what the scriptures and the prophets have said is true than in what you believe may or may not be true.

  • Mc
    Sept. 23, 2009 11:07 p.m.

    "if you don't have the right to make legally binding judgements, then next time prop 8 comes up, since it has no bearing on you, perhaps you should just mind your own business... if only gays voted on it (since they are the only ones affected) then I'm pretty sure it would have passed..."

    We as individuals can not make legally binding judgements, but as a group we can vote on legally binding issues that affect our society. It doesn't have to affect us personally to be bad for society as a whole and we have every right to make that judgement.

  • Oliver
    Sept. 24, 2009 5:35 a.m.

    To Frank Lee Scarlet,

    I don't have the time to read all your posts on here, all I know is that you listed a whole bunch of scriptures and only two of them actually relate to homosexuality. And, in addition to that, you have not even attempted to answer the sincere questions I asked you. Why? My guess is, you blindly repeated references on homosexuality from the topical guide.

    It's just, when you read these kinds of forums, you always hear the same stuff. "Homosexuality is wrong, look what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah!"; or, "Homosexuality is evil, look what it says in 1 Corinthians!". Those kinds of comments are more harmful than helpful. Gay members need our support.

    And why are we so eager to decide what can or what can't ever happen? All we do is put limits to God this way. It's not up to us to decide what he will or won't do in the future.

  • J
    Sept. 24, 2009 6:45 a.m.

    I'm not a member of ANY church and I find these comments a loathsome essay on your humanity. If you could all read this with an objective eye....you would shudder. There's nothing Christian here, no grace, no love, no attempt to heal each other. Not a hand extended. You should be ashamed.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 24, 2009 8:02 a.m.

    mc:: god is the only judge of our actions

  • To J | 6:45
    Sept. 24, 2009 8:04 a.m.

    Most of the hateful commentators here are your fellows -- non-members of ANY church.

    Some are non-Mormons, trying to make the Church look bad. Some are social Mormons, or people with a family history of Mormonism, but who haven't darkened the doorway of a Mormon chapel in many years.

    You can tell from their hateful comments, comments that are the antithesis of the Church's standing on this issue. Which is grace, love, a desire to heal.

  • to frank lee scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 8:54 a.m.

    You are justifying the eating of shellfish by saying that "it's unhealthy." Hmm, is that what the serpent told Eve, I wonder? The fact remains that Lev. 11 terms it "abomination" no less than 3 times. Why don't you sip on your coffee while you reread that one. Then ponder that Jesus Christ himself stated that he came not to "CHANGE THE LAW." One can logically conclude that the previous laws APPLY because Jesus said so. No more shellfish for you...oh and swordfish is also out of the question.

  • to: Anonymous | 3:00 p.m.
    Sept. 24, 2009 10:07 a.m.

    "To "embrace" sin would mean that you would partake in it. To tolerate sin (and by doing so, love the sinner) would mean to allow those who sin to do so without withholding any love or wihholding any secular benefits that you enjoy IF they are not harming another."

    the sin is alredy being tolerated, and has been tolerated since the sodomy laws were brought down. what you are saying is absurd. loving the sinnner means treating them with love and respect, but if you tolerate the sin to the extent that you say it is not a sin, then i am sorry, you are wrong. it would be no different than saying it is ok to murder. yes, i know you are ging to say that you mentioned only if it doesn't harm others, but that is not true. a sin is sin, and there is no excuse for calling it otherwise just because you want to be nice. loving the sinner and hating the sin means you treat the person as you would any one, while helping them to repent and return to god. to encourage them to contiue the sin is wrong.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 10:58 a.m.

    REF: Oliver
    You came here to argue your views and did so without full appreciation for my experiences with homosexuality. You tried as Paul said you would in Romans 1... I Recommend the entire chapter but at least take the time to start somewhere around verse 15 and read of your vanity and your foolishness around 21 & 22 on through 25 where you have taken truth and turned it into lies before you even get to the meat in 26 and 27 and then you will continue as Paul outlined in 28 through 32 on your way... not learning anything from this but continuing to remain argumentative as you were before. The forum is designed to underscore the divisiveness of the issue. Under the guise of being informative the article was purposefully to not necessarily create the polarization... but to monitor it...to measure the response. That is one of the reasons it was written. Just in the fact that because there are many who oppose homosexuality should tell you something about those who do not want to see Satan's hand strengthened and undermining the moral values of the majority...Many don't share your views

  • Mormon My Way
    Sept. 24, 2009 11:05 a.m.

    I'm guessing most of us do the Church our way. Otherwise we'd likely have been translated already.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 11:14 a.m.

    REF:To who ever you are....8:54 Sept 24, 2009

    Your use of shellfish and the word abomination is totally absurd. You are doing exactly as Paul says of you in Romans 1. You change the truth of God into lies. I'll not waste my time with you anymore you are of the devil... You are the contentious vagabond who denies the written word...but yet will use parts and pieces to craft into half truths for your own purposes. Others will see that of you and they too will ignore you.....But I will have to admit that you really are very funny as an antagonist.....reaching so far into the absurd.

  • Mc
    Sept. 24, 2009 11:23 a.m.

    @to: Anonymous | 3:00 p.m. | 10:07 a.m.

    You are right in saying, "to encourage them to continue the sin is wrong." I would carry it one step farther and say that encouraging or enabling someone to live in sin is unloving or hateful. If we truly hated gays we wouldn't care what they did. But we do care because they are children of God. We feel a responsibility to help them know that homosexual behavior is sin and that repentance and change is possible and will bring true happiness, not the worldly pleasure they seek now. Those who don't believe in God or want to believe in a God who doesn't care what they do will resent our efforts, but there may be some who will respond to the kind of love we offer and turn to God for healing.

    We cannot make judgements about someone else's eternal state. That is up to God, but if we fail to help others learn of God and His plan then we will be judged for our failure to care for others and help spread His Gospel.

  • Vince
    Sept. 24, 2009 11:25 a.m.

    To Frank Lee Scarlet

    I understand the whole Old Testament and homosexuality question.

    You did say, after all, it's Old Testament, or rather, Law of Moses. That would call into question many of the references to homosexuality in the Old Testament.

    And yes, I understand the whole homosexuality/shellfish thing in the Old Testament.

    When we say Old Testament versus Testament, then we call into question, hmmm, let's see what Jesus said about the matter.

    Actually silent on the matter, except there is the one reference about Sodom and Gomorrah, but it seems to be speaking about gratitude rather than "giving in to homosexual urges. My references seem to allude to that.

    However, to be fair, there is Romans. Aha, you say!

    But then we have the whole concept of "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly."

    Interesting clause.

    With this clause we have both sides pulling and tugging as to how to interpret the Bible regarding homosexuality with neither side giving in.

    Add to that another layer, church policy, and Church doctrine and there is very little wiggle room.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 11:25 a.m.

    to: Anonymous | 3:00 p.m. | 10:07 a.m

    ["but if you tolerate the sin to the extent that you say it is not a sin, then i am sorry, you are wrong. it would be no different than saying it is ok to murder. yes, i know you are ging to say that you mentioned only if it doesn't harm others, but that is not true. a sin is sin, and there is no excuse for calling it otherwise just because you want to be nice."]

    it is only a sin in your eyes. God doesn't consider it a sin, and you can't call it such just because you think it is.

    you all talk about how gays can change, but the ONLY reason they would even want to is because you all are such bullies. you pick on them and demean them.

    some of the apostles were gay. they were not bullied by Jesus, they were his friends. and you all claim you want to be more like Jesus? then stop bullying gays, forcing your beliefs onto them through laws and your actions.

  • re Frank Lee Scarlet | 10:58 a.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 11:28 a.m.

    ["Just in the fact that because there are many who oppose homosexuality should tell you something about those who do not want to see Satan's hand strengthened and undermining the moral values of the majority..."]

    satan has nothing to do with it. if anything, satan is in your midst, causing you to persecute these people. and yet you don't see it. is there anything in your books about that?

  • VBfriend
    Sept. 24, 2009 12:18 p.m.

    I like what has been said about each of us interpreting the scriptures to suit us. Each person really does interpret the scriptures for ourselves. It is up to us to prayerfully search the scriptures. You may say that the scriptures are not of private interepretation, but then go to church and have someone interepret them for you.

    The Bible, BOM or Koran for that matter all were designed to bring you closer to God. Don't use them to argue with each other or use one scripture against another. After all it is God that will judge you. To me he has revealed that he loves me the way that I am. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live. As long as I am good with God I am happy. You can call me a sinner (Which is what all of us are). You can not however make one bit of difference with my relationship to God.

    Please follow your own article of faith and let me worship when, how or what I may (Even if I belong to your church and choose to interpret things differently).

  • RE -- Frank Lee Scarlet | 11:14
    Sept. 24, 2009 12:27 p.m.

    ["Your use of shellfish and the word abomination is totally absurd. You are doing exactly as Paul says of you in Romans 1. You change the truth of God into lies. I'll not waste my time with you anymore you are of the devil... You are the contentious vagabond who denies the written word...but yet will use parts and pieces to craft into half truths for your own purposes"]

    did yu really say "You change the truth of God into lies" when the poster was quoting directly out of the bible? The "written word" says eating shellfish is an abomination. You're saying it's not true. So you ARE picking and choosing what you consider right or wrong.

    Let me rephrase that. You are not picking and choosing. You let your leaders do that for you.

    ["Your use of shellfish and the word abomination is totally absurd."]

    the poster didn't invent that. It came straight out of the bible. Are you saying that parts of the bible are absurd? How does that sit with God? Do you think He approves of you calling His written words "absurd"?

    your religion is based on your opinions.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 12:29 p.m.

    REF:Mormon My Way

    Frankly your few words have nailed the subject to the wall. The church is not perfect in that it is made up of people and people...you...me...everybody...We are not perfect. If we were we wouldn't be here...as you pointed out...But the Gospel and it's principles are perfect...and if stringently followed will help lead us all to perfection. The opposition to homosexuality is based on long standing precedent...and the principles of the gospel tell us that we should avoid the entanglement of it's harmfulness and to resist it with all of our being.
    Many will tell you that we are being inhumane. Nonsense... exactly a counter axiam the adversary wants you to feel... We have those who struggle with it...and who wish they didn't. Yes, they seek our help but in many situations we are not properly prepared to help them....Unfortunately we also have those who do not want any help and who are comfortable with their circumstance or are driven away by bad responses to previous attempts at getting help...i.e... not being properly prepared.

  • to - VBfriend | 12:18 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 12:39 p.m.

    unfortunately, the main issue is that the mormon church bullies gays and forces their opinion onto them, to the extent that gays have lost rights.

    the rights taken from gays are the same rights that allow mormons to freely practice their religion. and if this were a nation of gay couples, I'd be championing the mormons right to practice their religion.

    only when the mormon church stops demeaning gays and taking away their rights will this issue be resolved. when gays are considered just like everyone else - the way blacks were demeaned by the church and now are not - that is when the church will be on good footing with the Lord.

  • My two cents
    Sept. 24, 2009 12:40 p.m.

    Same sex attraction doesn't make you gay. Acting sexually on it does. Love and sex aren't one in the same. A man can love another man and be gay or straight. It's the sexual activity that defines the sin. Sex in a marriage is considered good. Sex outside of it is bad. Love is the thing that straights and gays have in common.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 12:51 p.m.

    REF Vince
    Congratulations Vince...you do see the light....and the paradoxes. So what do we do? We are kind of unprepared to handle the matter aren't we. So do we do as many would want us to do? Tear down the fences... get rid of the guard dogs...fire the shepherds...(the prophet and the twelve)... and invite the wolves to openly run with the entire flock.. just to see what happens??? Is that the " humane " thing to do? That's exactly what many out here want us to do. I don't have a problem not turning my back on those struggling with the issue and offering my hand to help them. But I do have a problem with them not wanting to even attempt to overcome and to demand that we and the church accept them and to allow them to continue in the activities that are the basis of the problem....They want "Carte blanche" ...doesn't that wrankle just a bit. So do we all go around and poke each others eyes out thereby creating a sense blinding our sensitivity. Do we throw away the sciptures. That's what's being asked...Right?

  • VanceMack
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:11 p.m.

    Yes you CAN be a Mormon on YOUR OWN TERMS. You just cant expect the church to honor YOUR terms and embrace what you do. Imagine..if EVERYONE followed all rules and all law on "their own terms."

    Live...love...be happy. Yes...God is a God of love and will understand you. That DOESN'T mean he will by necessity endorse your actions or behaviors. But he will LOVE you even as you face the consequences of your choices...whatever those consequences may be.

  • Interesting
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:16 p.m.

    How people think that just because something was written long ago, that it is automatically dismissed in modern society. Were they not human beings just like we are? The only difference between them and us is our toys and technology, the human condition hasn't changed ever. It is highly arrogant and presumptuous to think otherwise.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:24 p.m.

    "My two cents | 12:40 p.m. Sept. 24, 2009
    Same sex attraction doesn't make you gay. Acting sexually on it does."

    Are you gay?

    If you are not, you are making up definations for them. All gays that I know define being gay as being ATTRACTED to the same sex. Thus, they say, "He's gay, but he doesn't know it yet."

    Being gay is having the attraction to the same sex by everyone in the US except maybe the LDS church.

    Being gay is not a sin. Acting upon those feelings is a sin.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:27 p.m.

    Everyone saying that homosexuality was never mentioned in the Bible.

    Show me where extra-marital sexual activity was condoned in the NEW testament. Gay sex is extramarital.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:32 p.m.

    Why do LDS people think that we want them to change their beliefs? You can believe whatever you want to.

    We merely want you to act like Americans and leave us alone. Let us have the same privileges that you enjoy as Americans (live the 14th amendment and your own 12th article of faith).

    We are not trying to bring down the walls of your marriages. We are not trying to get married in your temples. We just want to be your equals but we feel your condemnation of us and feel that you believe that it is your responsibility to punish us for the lives that we lead. It isn't.

    If you promise to leave us alone to work out our benefits and privileges with the government, we promise to leave you alone to practice you religion as you see fit (unless you start believing in human sacrifice or some other harmful practice).

    Read your article of faith. Read the 14th amendment. If you cannot see where you have gone wrong, I will try and explain it to you. This is America! Please let me live free to live my life as I see fit.

  • To: re - Anonymous | 4:27 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:33 p.m.

    "and aren't those that follow that going to feel pretty stupid if there is no such thing? should you really use up this life against your nature in the hopes that you have more lives?"

    And what if it's true? You're going to feel pretty horrible if you gave up an eternity of happiness and joy for a few fleeting moments of physical pleasure, aren't you? Who wants to spend forever feeling regret because they couldn't control their desires, regardless of what sexual orientation they happen to be?

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 1:58 p.m.

    This whole debate is a little strange to me. Mormons are the ones saying that yes, it's possible to change, you don't have to be defined by your sexual urges, and that you can control your desires and your actions. The other side is saying the opposite, that you can't change who you are, that your entire identity is wrapped up in who you find attractive, that there is no point in trying to control yourselves, and that you should give in to every one of your basic urges whenever you feel like it.

    And yet Mormons are the ones being villified for their stance? How does that make sense?

  • Re: Anonymous @ 1:32 p.m.
    Sept. 24, 2009 2:09 p.m.

    "This is America! Please let me live free to live my life as I see fit."

    Nobody is saying you can't live your life as you see fit. You can have a relationship with anybody you choose, and the two (or three, or four, or five, etc., if you like) of you can do whatever you'd like to do in the privacy of your own homes.

    What we're saying is, we don't believe in giving government sanction to it. There is a huge difference between being tolerant of something and being accepting and supportive of it. We don't believe in actively supporting a lifestyle that runs contrary to countless studies proving that having parents of both genders in the home is vital to a child's growth and development. We don't believe in actively supporting a lifestyle that opposes the only unit of society that has been proven over the long term to reduce crime and poverty and increase productivity. We don't believe in actively supporting a lifestyle that runs contrary to the will of God as defined by His prophets.

    That doesn't stop you from doing whatever you'd like.

  • Ok...
    Sept. 24, 2009 2:22 p.m.

    ...so be independent and quit hanging onto a church you don't believe in.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 2:34 p.m.

    Frank Lee Scarlet | 10:58 a.m
    ["You came here to argue your views and did so without full appreciation for my experiences with homosexuality. You tried as Paul said you would in Romans 1"]

    Frank Lee Scarlet | 11:14 a.m
    ["Your use of shellfish and the word abomination is totally absurd. You are doing exactly as Paul says of you in Romans 1"]

    so what you are saying is that anyone that disagrees with you is satan because you believe Paul in Romans 1... but what if it is YOU who is doing exactly what Paul said in Romans 1. What if eating shellfish is a sin, for it is held dear in God's heart, but gay is not?

    you're making assumptions and calling us all satan simply because it goes against your beliefs. But don't forget - those are YOUR beliefs. And YOU believing it doesn't make it so. We believe what we are saying...

    you are doing exactly what Paul said of you in Romans 1.

  • re - Frank Lee Scarlet 12:29 pm
    Sept. 24, 2009 2:44 p.m.

    ["and the principles of the gospel tell us that we should avoid the entanglement of it's harmfulness and to resist it with all of our being"]

    such is YOUR interpretation... and therein lies the problem. you believe it to be a sin. many (including lots of non-gay people) don't think it is a sin - it's just different.

    ["Many will tell you that we are being inhumane"]

    no - not at all. you are simply being a bully, ganging up on a group of people that do no harm to you, yet you spend hours upon hours causing them harm.

    ["Yes, they seek our help but in many situations we are not properly prepared to help them"]

    wrong again. they don't want your help. they want you to stop picking on them and stop taking away thier rights - the same rights you clearly enjoy.

    none, or at least very few many, gays would want to change and be straight, if they ween't picked on and demeaned by the likes of you. If everyone just treated them the same as everyone else, we wouldn't even be having this conversation. and no, I'm not gay.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 2:49 p.m.

    I'm sorry but being followers of God it doesn't work that way. The government shouldn't have anything to do with deciding those type of morality issues. No one is denying you your individual rights. All people are responding to is the dragging of the government into places it doesn't belong by a minority of societal nonconformists who defy natural order. What is offensive is that you think that society owes you for your nonconformity. The sanctity of marriage is between a man and a woman. It always has been always will be. I'm a Baptist and this issue is just as demeaning to the sanctity of marriage as it is to Mormons. You want the Government to be your Heathen God. Your Golden Calf and I'm sorry that you are misinformed...but you don't deserve to be catered to. It is a lone a dreary world out there and you need to earn your way according to the Lord's chosen plan. We can offer you pity for the deception that you have befallen under and salvation through the blood of Christ but those living as God intended owe you nothing more.

  • Desert Pete
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:07 p.m.

    REF: Anonymous@1:32 p.m.
    Agreed with the previous Anonymous @ 2:09 Do what you want ...just quit trying to turn the government into your personal Golden Calf...or your Personal.. God. Quit telling everybody that we have to take notice of you ...Quit complaining because you dug your own pit and fell in. You keep beating yourself over the head with a stick that you hold in your own two hands and when someone does try to help you to get out of the pit, you turn it upon them. Quit being religious hypocrits when you can't even keep a basic law of moral integrity to begin with. Homosexuality is not of God and you are mistaken to even put God's name in any fashion as condoning it.

  • re OK
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:14 p.m.

    Amen. The Church has a certain demographic they market to, and Lord knows it isn't gay people. Or Democrats either, for that matter.

  • common' folks....
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:21 p.m.

    I was born a member of the church, straight, married with kids, and very active in the church. I am not in favor of gay marriage per se - though I do believe gays have the right to a legally binding relationship - what ever that means now days.

    That all said, I do not believe for one second people choose to be gay. My son 7, has a friend where there is no shadow of doubt in my mind that his brain is pre-wired to be gay. I don't think he chooses to be so. He just is. This is much like people having a propensity to be over weight, or have addictive personalities. We have men who are born with way too much testosterone, the full spectrum.

    We all have challenges we have to deal with. I have issues, you have issue, and to those who think they don't have issue, perhaps a little more introspection is needed. Master your own problems, then worry about someone else's. There has been only one perfect one, and its not you. Until you are, cut everyone some slack - judge not lest ye be judged.

  • re - My two cents | 12:40 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:22 p.m.

    ["Same sex attraction doesn't make you gay. Acting sexually on it does. Love and sex aren't one in the same. A man can love another man and be gay or straight. It's the sexual activity that defines the sin. Sex in a marriage is considered good. Sex outside of it is bad. Love is the thing that straights and gays have in common"]

    that makes sense... unfortunately, the mormon church goes out of its way to ensure gays can't marry, thereby causing them to violate your "Sex in a marriage is considered good. Sex outside of it is bad" rule...

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:24 p.m.

    "What we're saying is, we don't believe in giving government sanction to it"

    Have you ever read the constitution? Especially the 14th amendment? How about the 1st amendment?

    You can practice your religion WITHOUT trying to make everyone else live by your commandments! That is what freedom of religion means. It does not mean that you get to pass laws governing those who do not believe as you do because you think that it is sactioning sin. Can you see how that would be forcing others to live under your beliefs?

    We as law abiding Americans are promised to have all the priviliges and immunities of citizens of the US and to not have them abridged. You tell me if not allowing us to marry is abridging our privileges because you believe that you get to decide what is moral or not.

    This is not the America I was raised with and taught in school. This is more like the countries that have church and state intermingled. Iran comes to mind. Is this the type of country that you are fighting for? One where everyone must abide by the majority's religion?

  • re - Interesting | 1:16 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:25 p.m.

    ["It is highly arrogant and presumptuous to think otherwise. "]

    it is also arrogant and presumptuous to think that even people that think the bible is a nice fictional instruction manual like aesops fables are forced to comply with a church's rules, because that church forced their religious concepts into the lawbooks.

  • re - Anonymous | 1:24 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:27 p.m.

    ["Being gay is not a sin. Acting upon those feelings is a sin"]

    so says you and your church. that doesn't make it a sin.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:28 p.m.

    "What is offensive is that you think that society owes you for your nonconformity."

    This is America. We do not have to conform to receive the same privileges that every other law abiding American has, do we? As long as we are citizens of this country, obey the laws of the land and pay our taxes, we are guarenteed the same equal protection of the laws and should be granted the same privileges and benefits.

    Tell me where you are getting the understanding that other Americans can vote on whether or not law abiding citizens are allowed all the rights and privileges that you enjoy. I do not see it in our divinely inspired constitution.

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:30 p.m.

    You're the only one bringing up shellfish and having an obsessive fit about them. No one else even cares. Your use of the bible is only for your purposes...You have to resort to distortion because your weakness to prove a point is so pathetic. I know the full meaning of the scripture and the use of abomination. I also am smart enough to know that even the eating of shellfish in the times of Moses is in no way comparable to the sin of homosexuality which my friend is the subject that you asininely try to skirt around. It was not a capital offense under the old Law of Moses. It was a sin of defiling ones body true... but one far less evil in the eyes of the Lord who is a discerning individual capable of knowing the weighted difference...But that is the only relationship it had to homosexuality. It's purpose was to keep from getting disease and illness and bring physical death not eternal damnation Your stupidity to attempt to remove Gods ability to discern is repugnant. If you can't come of with something more substantial then why waste peoples time.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:33 p.m.

    TO --- To: re - Anonymous | 4:27 p.m | 1:33 p.m

    ["And what if it's true? You're going to feel pretty horrible if you gave up an eternity of happiness and joy for a few fleeting moments of physical pleasure, aren't you? Who wants to spend forever feeling regret because they couldn't control their desires, regardless of what sexual orientation they happen to be?"]

    if you think you will be damned to hell for having sex with another consenting adult, then you worship the wrong god. The only God I know is a lot more disappointed in the bullies that force their ways onto others than He is with a couple of people having sex and making each other happy... love and happiness while harming no others and being kind to others. That's the rule. everyone knows it. too bad you can't follow it..

  • Many people are becoming
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:41 p.m.

    "Spiritual...not religious" like me. Religion has some good history and some bad history. And right now, in our time it is mostly a bad thing. Enlightened people know that a Higher Power (whatever people believe this to be) would not discriminate or hurt people based on their traits. Mormonism is becoming irrelevant (and many other religions as well) and they are striking back. But check back in ten years or less and you will see how secular this society is slowly becoming (like much of the advanced world). Only primitive people and people that live in third world countries have a high following of traditional religion. Advanced societies only have the majority in "name only" status since their ancestors were part of a certain religion. They don't practice the strange, sometimes hurtful teachings...they are going away.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:42 p.m.

    to -- Re: Anonymous @ 1:32 p.m. | 2:09 p.m

    ["What we're saying is, we don't believe in giving government sanction to it. There is a huge difference between being tolerant of something and being accepting and supportive of it"]

    it's their gov't too. or did you forget that?

    ["We don't believe in actively supporting a lifestyle that runs contrary to countless studies proving that having parents of both genders in the home is vital to a child's growth and development"]

    there are as many studies that say the oposite. but you pick and choose, just like with your religion.

    ["We don't believe in actively supporting a lifestyle that runs contrary to the will of God as defined by His prophets"]

    no one wants you to support it. just don't restrict the rights of an entire population. you have marriage rights - so should they. it is NOT up to yopu to tell these people what they can and cannot do...

  • Rameumptom
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:52 p.m.

    It is amazing to me the degree of self-righteousness that comes through from so many peoples' comments on here. Few comments attempt to show an empathy or to understand what it must be like for these brothers and sisters. Most of the posts just lecture them as to how sinful they are and how they should "just get in line" like the holy people posting.

    This comment feature is increasingly a modern day Rameumptom.

  • To Anonymous | 3:24 p.m.
    Sept. 24, 2009 3:55 p.m.

    Everybody in this country who is eligible is allowed to vote for whatever they want, for whatever reasons they deem appropriate. Every one of us goes into the voting booth with our own unique circumstances, beliefs, and life experiences, and preventing somebody from voting according to their conscience, just because you don't like what their conscience tells them, is against the law. It is NOT against the law, however, to vote to regulate lawful behavior.

    There are requirements that need to be filled in order to receive a marriage license, just as there are requirements that need to be filled in order to receive a driver's license or vote in an election. We tell people all the time that certain things are not legally acceptable in our society. It doesn't matter what you WANT to do if it's against the law. Many people WANT to drive recklessly, do drugs, take somebody else's possessions, etc.

    You are allowed to vote according to your desires, just like us. If you're in the majority, your desires become legally acceptable. But just because you WANT something doesn't mean you have the right to have it.

  • re - Anonymous | 2:49 p.
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:04 p.m.

    ["The government shouldn't have anything to do with deciding those type of morality issues"]

    AGREED

    ["No one is denying you your individual rights"]

    PROP 8 REMOVED RIGHTS - YOU CAN MARRY - GAYS CANNOT - YOU HAVE RIGHTS THAT THEY DON'T HAVE.

    ["The sanctity of marriage is between a man and a woman. It always has been always will be"]

    MARRIAGE IS NOT A RELIGIOUS INSTITUTION. IT IS A LEGAL STATUS. and ssm wil be legal in a few years - the supreme court has no basis to deny it.

    ["It is a lone a dreary world out there and you need to earn your way according to the Lord's chosen plan"]

    do you not understand that all you are doing is forcing your beliefs onto others? is this america or Iran?

    think about that, because THAT is why ssm will be legalized. it's NOT a religious issue. it's a civil rights issue.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:05 p.m.

    To Frank Lee Scarlet,

    You failed to answer my question- again. You previously had listed a bunch of scriptures, that in your view condemn homosexuality. I told you most of them don't even talk about homosexuality. I told you 1 Corinthians talks about male prostitutes. You also failed to answer, why you cite Jude 1:7, where it talks about Sodom and Gomorrah, a city full of a degenerated people? Are you suggesting that homosexuals are degenerated? If so, I actually wouldn't be surprised, because you come across very condescending and a little arrogant, if I may say.

    And, how does the homosexual couple (in your opinion one of Satan's tools in achieving his evil purposes) that lives together faithfully and lovingly, underminde your moral values?

    Pornography, polygamy, abuse, money, hunger for power, drugs-- those things undermine our values far more than the harmless homosexual couple next door.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:10 p.m.

    "It is NOT against the law, however, to vote to regulate lawful behavior. ...You are allowed to vote according to your desires, just like us. If you're in the majority, your desires become legally acceptable."

    You do not understand your own constitution. It was put in place to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.

    Look it up. It might surprise you how many votes are unconstitutional and, when taken before the SCOUS, will be found as such.

    That is what our bill of rights was made for.

    Just like sodomy laws were found unconstitutional, so will the other laws be found the same way, ie, Amendment 3 in Utah and Prop 8 in California and Doma.

    Wait and see.

  • re - Desert Pete | 3:07 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:11 p.m.

    ["Quit telling everybody that we have to take notice of you"]

    LOL!! no one cares what you notice or don't notice. just stop taking a right that you enjoy and keeping it from an entire group of people.

    the BIGGEST problem with you people is that you seem to think marriage is a reeligious issue. ITS NOT!! it is a civil rights issue - and as soon as you figure that out, you will be so much less surprised when it is legal for gays to marry..

    just trying to help you - don't want you to have a heart attack when it becomes legal. don't want you to strain your back carrying your "THE END IS NIGH" signs...

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:25 p.m.

    REF: Yes this is America...and you don't think that you have to conform....which I take to mean that you are potentially a very dangerous person. Because if you think that you do not have to conform in order to enjoy the exact same rights and privileges as every one else, then you obviously must feel that you are above the laws of this land. From your very own words you must feel that you can at any moment rob someone... kill someone or even rape and sodomize a child. Though I don't really feel that there should be laws against sodomy between two consenting adults of the same sex in the privacy behind closed doors...none the less there are still laws against such activity in many rural places throughout the U.S especially in the South....and the Supreme Court has made no attempts to wipe them off the books...so you might want to keep that in mind.....but that doesn't bother you I'm sure... because you don't need to conform...That's what this whole issue is about isn't it?...Doing exactly what you want to do.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:26 p.m.

    "There are requirements that need to be filled in order to receive a marriage license, just as there are requirements that need to be filled in order to receive a driver's license or vote in an election."

    Do you realize that a murderer can marry? Even in prison, he can get married. So can a child molester. They can even have children after they are married! So can a wife beater. Nothing stops them from filling out a marriage license and going through a ceremony and obtaining all the rights and privileges that our government gives to those who are married.

    You somehow think that it is much more important to keep two law abiding citizens that happen to be the same sex from marrying than outlaw marriage to law breakers. This I do not understand. It does not make sense, other than a deeply felt religious belief that you want everyone in America to live by.

    That is wrong.

    Where are the constitutional scholars in the Mormon church? Why aren't they stating the obvious? Are they afraid? Where are they?

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:27 p.m.

    gay marriage will not become legal in utah not in our lifetime

  • ak
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:37 p.m.

    Keep gays & lesbians away from our youth--they will corrupt them & abuse them! Fight against this despicable group that is wrong.

  • To: Anonymous @4:05
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:39 p.m.

    How does polygamy undermine our values and homosexuality does not? If all involved are consenting adults why should polygamy not be on the same grounds as homosexuality? Should it not be legalized? Are gay supporters also willing to champion those who desire a polygamous life? An earlier poster brought shellfish into the conversation so why not bring in polygamy... After all it has been an accepted practice in the past and God does not care if you are a polygamist or not. He loves you the way you are...

  • Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:41 p.m.

    Ref: Anonymous @ 3:42 pm

    Dude The Homosexual community in the United States is not an entire population...it's a small microcosm of an entire population making up a very small portion. Even with sympathizers from the heterosexual community it's still minutely small

  • To Frank Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:49 p.m.

    Dear Frank.

    I am not a scary person. You obviously did not read the rest of my post.

    "This is America. We do not have to conform to receive the same privileges that every other law abiding American has, do we? As long as we are citizens of this country, obey the laws of the land and pay our taxes, we are guarenteed the same equal protection of the laws and should be granted the same privileges and benefits."

    See where it says "obey the laws"?

    I do not have to act just like you do to receive my rights in this country. In fact, I can be as obnoxious as some political tv personalities and tell half truths and still have all the rights and privileges of citizenship.

    You really do not understand what this country is about, do you?


    PS ALL sodomy laws have been declared unconstitutional per Lawrence v. Texas. You really need to keep up on what is going on if you are going to post on this board.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 24, 2009 4:52 p.m.

    tigerlily | 4:27 p.m. Sept. 24, 2009
    "gay marriage will not become legal in utah not in our lifetime "

    I bet that is what they said about sodomy laws in Utah not disappearing. All null and void as of 2003. One decision of the Supreme court and they are gone.

    This is what will happen with anti-gay marriage laws and yes, it will be in your lifetime.

    Get ready.

  • re - Frank Lee Scarlet | 4:25 p.
    Sept. 24, 2009 5:06 p.m.

    ["Yes this is America...and you don't think that you have to conform....which I take to mean that you are potentially a very dangerous person. Because if you think that you do not have to conform in order to enjoy the exact same rights and privileges as every one else, then you obviously must feel that you are above the laws of this land"]

    it is legal to be gay, or did you forget that. so you are restricting the rights of an entire group of people who are doing nothing illegal.

    but what they are doing is going against your religious beliefs. And that infuriates you and makes you bully them to ensure they are not happy. you must involke your will onto them - it is your religious belief.

    it is you who are the dangerous one.

  • re - tigerlily | 4:27 p.m
    Sept. 24, 2009 5:09 p.m.

    ["gay marriage will not become legal in utah not in our lifetime"]

    you must be very old. better you say your lifetime. anyone 40 or younger will see it...

  • awsomeron
    Sept. 24, 2009 5:24 p.m.

    If I not Mormon on My Terms, then on whos Terms would I be Mormon?

    In Mormonism there if "Free Agency" which is why many Mormons do not hold TR's and many youth cannot go to the Temple to do work for the dewad.

    Thats where the Terms Repent and Grace after all that we can or choose to do come into effect.

    The Church has Rules and has them for a reason and although the Church servived Dec 1 and Dec 2, and cheer for the most part Proc For The Family. All do not agree and all is far from perfact in Zion.

    Free Agency is a rough thing if it does Not go the way of the majority. God wants us to have Free Agency and the whole Plan of SAlvation is in large part based on that Fact.

    Only man and usually in the form of evil, want to force people to folow blindly in a cetain manner.

    I would be nice to have womb to the tomb, safe journey and some do but that by far the exception then the rule. Most of us have to bump along and do our best.

  • Re:Re:tigerlily @4:27
    Sept. 24, 2009 5:25 p.m.

    I am 42 now so you are saying i might get lucky and not see the day? I sure hope so...

  • Frankl Lee Scarlet
    Sept. 24, 2009 5:52 p.m.

    I read every word...but just like the twisting of words about shellfish the twisting of words about conforming is just as effective. No. You misunderstand... you have to conform on many different levels my friend long before you even understood what rights are. You start learning as a child in school, at home, on the playground...if you didn't learn that then you missed a lot. Our society demands conformity...what you don't realize is that there still is a silent majority out there....but with issues like this gun control and taking God out of the pledge of alliegence -sp.- or removing the words In God We Trust....though seemingly popular movements among certain circles eventually that Silent majority is going to start taking a bigger stand. Of course I'm just trying to be helpful so that someday you're not dragged down the street by a bunch of rednecks...even I wouldn't want to see that happen...and you don't need to worry about my heart...it's in good shape.

  • Don
    Sept. 24, 2009 6:28 p.m.

    Every Mormon I know is a "Mormon" on his or her own terms. This isn't a new concept.

    Faithfulness to Christ's gospel is rarely (if ever) consistent or complete. Everyone has weaknesses that we all have to deal with. Even those who appear perfect struggle with something.

    So, whether it's sexual orientation, Word of Wisdom, gossip, gambling, etc., the best for all of us is to stay focused on Christ and following him. Taking up our crosses means dealing with our weaknesses (not caving to them).

    And at the same time, just as I want Christ to forgive me, we all have a duty to forgive each other.

    Beyond that, we need each other--weaknesses and all.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 24, 2009 6:58 p.m.

    gay marriage will never happen in utah. the church will see to that

  • VBfriend
    Sept. 25, 2009 6:11 a.m.

    Not sure why my last post was blocked. I guess my position on the matter has not been clear. I agree that the church is and has been abusing the gay members.

    If you are gay please know that your Father in Heaven loves you and understands you. He knew that you would be gay when he sent you here. If he then condems you for it, what type of a God is he?

    Find someone to love and don't worry about what anyone thinks. The Father in heaven I know wont punish you for loving someone. He will punish you for hate and intolerance. I have found a beautiful guy to share my life. We both still are members of the church. I don't need anybodys approval. I am good with the lord and know he accepts me. No need to tell me it is sin, because you are way off if you think it is!

  • re - Frank Lee Scarlet | 5:52 pm
    Sept. 25, 2009 10:53 a.m.

    ["you have to conform on many different levels my friend long before you even understood what rights are. You start learning as a child in school, at home, on the playground...if you didn't learn that then you missed a lot. Our society demands conformity"]

    of all the societies in the world, ours demands the LEAST conformity. you are confusing conformity with social skills. you have to treat people with respect and you have to obey laws and not harm others. other than that, there are few rules. you missed a lot as a child, and think you have to conform to what everyone expects you to be. i feel bad for you. you are not your own person. i believe mormonism does that to a person - which is why i don't like organized religion. but this is america - do your thing (even if it's really everyone elses thing...)

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 25, 2009 10:59 a.m.

    to - Frankl Lee Scarlet | 5:52 p.m

    ["taking God out of the pledge of alliegence -sp.- or removing the words In God We Trust"]

    your assumption is that there is in fact a god. many don't believe in mystic beings - God or zeus or any of them. (I'm undecided). and that is why church and state are seperate and we have a secular gov't. unfortunately, when mormons or other religious people are elected by a reeligious majority (as in utah) then it get muddied. we all need to ensure it doesn't get too muddied by keeping God and religion out of govt rules and law.

  • just for fun
    Sept. 25, 2009 11:26 a.m.

    For those of you that believe that in heaven we are able to be with our spouse forever. And those who are single will be able to find someone. The fact that there are between 105-107 males born for every 100 females means that alot of guys will not have the chance to marry a woman.

    Maybe we should allow gays to marry to allow the numbers to balance out in heaven.

  • re - just for fun | 11:26 a.m
    Sept. 25, 2009 2:26 p.m.

    ["The fact that there are between 105-107 males born for every 100 females means that alot of guys will not have the chance to marry a woman.

    Maybe we should allow gays to marry to allow the numbers to balance out in heaven"]

    do you think there are more gay men then there are gay women? i don't know about that... most of the gay people I know are female..

    maybe you're right - maybe it's the same ratio as population - like you said, 106 to 100, so there's 6% more gay men than gay women...

  • Jon
    Sept. 25, 2009 3:30 p.m.

    Many of these comments are a perfect example of why so many gay mormon's feel ostracized at church. I am gay - but living church standards. Do you think it's easy sitting in church every Sunday listening to comments like these - telling me how much I'm hated and reviled - for simply being different? Do you think it's easy hearing how people like me are destroying society? Even though I'm not acting on my sexual feelings, it's still hard to not take it personally. While I'm sure there are some who want their cake and eat it too - most of us just want to feel respected and to get rid of the double standards. For example, if a young man has sex with a girl prior to his mission, he has to wait at least a year before he can serve. If he has sex with a boy then he has to wait at least 3 years - and probably won't be allowed be allowed to serve at all. This is just one example of the double standards we are faced with - reemphasizing that we are disgusting and our transgressions are more horrific.

  • tigerlily
    Sept. 25, 2009 4:22 p.m.

    to Jon. I don't know what kind of a ward you are going to but its not like that in all wards.

  • just for fun
    Sept. 25, 2009 6:09 p.m.

    The comment was just to get people to think. The numbers do not add up. Most people seem to have the idea that there is a perfect person for everyone. My point is that there is a descrepancy in the number of males verses females.

    I really don't see a problem with gay or lesbian marriages. They should be able to marry and be happy. Wouldn't it be awesome to have them be sealed to each other just like other couples? I know I am getting wild here. If two people love each other it is a good thing and I think that a loving father would let them be together in heaven.

  • VBfriend
    Sept. 26, 2009 6:57 a.m.

    To Jon:

    Just like you, I have been in many positions in the churck. I served an honerable mission. I have been in a few priesthood presidencies. I was married for 25 years. I lived as a straight man. I never told the ex about the attraction till after our divorce.

    The problem for many of us is that although we are treated badly, we still believe in the church. Around two months ago. I decided that I could not live a life of celibacy, and it was not fair for the church to require it. I do have a boyfriend now and am very happy. We both still have testimoies of the church and know that eventually we will lose our membership. We have already decided to keep going to church. They can take my membership, but not my relationship to the lord.

  • Vince
    Sept. 26, 2009 1:01 p.m.

    Anonymous | 12:51 p.m. Sept. 24, 2009

    "Congratulations Vince, you do see the paradoxes"

    I think some of the remarks that are made when people assume to think they know what I think or what I say when I make no remarks to that effect.

    Please understand.

    I never said "fire the prophet or apostles." Please don't misconstrue my words or assume I believe that.

    Far from it.

    The other comment "give help to those struggling with sam-sex attraction."

    That is essentially the issue here. "The help" that is being given is not helping.

    I am really at odds when the help is marketed as,

    "let the power of redemption allow you to overcome these obstacles" and

    "those who really want to change can change"

    Realizing that you did not make those statements, these are, nonetheless, statements, that will be issued to gays within the church.

    After gays in the Church(es) subscribe to this kind of philosophy for a couple of years, and even more, five, six, even ten years... to find that....

    The help did not help.

    In fact, it usually works the other way.

  • Vince
    Sept. 26, 2009 1:53 p.m.

    Anonymous | 1:24 p.m. Sept. 24, 2009

    What makes a person gay (or heterosexual, for that matter)

    is the same thing that makes a person heterosexual.

    People do not become heterosexual because they engage in sex with the opposite gender. It's a sense of who they are.

    People such as NARTH, however, state such things as "there is no such thing as a homosexual, only heterosexuals who are confused" (I'm paraphrasing, but they hold to that logic.

  • Brent
    Sept. 26, 2009 2:15 p.m.

    What would happen if a bunch of heterosexuals had a conference to justify pre-marital sex? Would any Religion much less mormonism come out and embrace that concept? Would we all whine about heterosexuals rights and their role in the church as an openly sexually active unmarried individual? How is this argument any different, same sin different manifestation.

  • Anonymous
    Sept. 26, 2009 2:21 p.m.

    To Frank Lee Scarlet

    "Dude The Homosexual community in the United States is not an entire population...it's a small microcosm of an entire population making up a very small portion. Even with sympathizers from the heterosexual community it's still minutely small"

    Even if there was only TWO homosexuals in the entire country, and it was proven that they were not BORN that way but choose to be homosexual, they should have the same rights as citizens of this nation as any other citizens. Period.

  • Vince
    Sept. 26, 2009 2:55 p.m.

    to Brent

    That is not an analogous statement to gays because heteros can marry. Most gays cannot.

    Some gays want to marry. Some do not.

    Some heteros want to marry. Some do not.

    For those who do, the institution should be there.

    If you say that gays engage in "pre-marital sex" but then deny the same insititution that will allow them to have an official union in the eyes of the community, you are further causing inequalities and accusing gays of the very fault you deny them.

  • VBfriend
    Sept. 26, 2009 5:36 p.m.

    to Frankl Lee Scarlet: Society always has demanded comformity I agree. But the people that seem to make a difference in the world, are the ones that break away from the comformity and move the world forward with their ideas.

    It is nice to live in a world that is becoming more tolerant, just twenty years ago there were many people that woule drag you down the street and beat you for being different (Whether for being gay, Jewish, latino or black). Hopefully there are enough good people to make it safe for anyone to be different. Whether or not you believe in equal rights, if what I am doing doesn't harm anyone it should not matter.

    Thank you for being open minded enough to let others live and worship according to the dictates of our own conscience.

  • goneforgood
    Oct. 5, 2009 2:29 p.m.

    How dare another human being sit in judgement, or even think they have the right to sit in judgement, over another human being. Until you've walked in the shoes of a man or a woman who has gone through 'coming out' and still wanting to be a part of the religion they grew up with, you have no right to judge them. I do not believe that God is the kind of God that will shuttle people off to heaven or hell just because they are black or white, gay or straight, mormon or catholic, married or divorced. Leave judgement to GOD.

  • Janet
    Oct. 5, 2009 3:11 p.m.

    Celibacy is a difficult choice, but many devout Catholics, among others, have made it that they might better serve God. Through daily devotion, study, and prayer, they focus on their spiritual relationship with God, not their carnal desires. I'm sure those carnal desires exist for most Catholic clergy, but most are strong enough to overcome them. Perhaps our LDS brothers and sisters with same-sex attraction (along with heterosexuals who cannot find suitable marriage partners) are likewise called to a celebate life. It is only one of many difficult callings, which, if we are faithful, will lead us to eternal happiness. The more we are tempted to break the law of chastity, the more we need to focus on worship, prayer, and scripture study -- not as a substitute, but as a fortification. He never said it would be easy.

  • roto
    March 16, 2010 2:23 p.m.

    as a gay man who has talked to his bishop, parents, and a counselor with lds services for some time now about my orientation and my struggle to retain my place in the lord's kingdom, i've come to understand much better what the real problem is. the church/doctrine/prophets etc. have been unintentionally unclear in the past, but the position was clarified that HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITY is a sin. it is not a sin to BE gay. it is far more natural than most members know, and can be emotionally, mentally, and physically dangerous to fight. but those homosexuals, out or not, who adhere to church standards of chastity are welcome, and can and should be fully active members, as long as they aren't dealing with serious sins. (it isn't unchaste to just be attracted to the same sex.) this idea is so vague among the membership though. and i wonder why there isn't more instruction coming from salt lake about how these members should be treated. perhaps the brethren aren't aware that the majority of the church believes gays shouldn't be members. hmm...