Sad part of our history but back in the days of no phones, no internet or
e-mail, no cell phones or text messages and people who had been kicked out of 4
states (New York, Ohio, Missouri and Illinois), denied justice by their federal
government, and were afraid of being kicked out of their homes again, I can see
how this kind of tragedy could happen.OK anti's, you can come out of
the woodwork and call faithful Latter-day Saints blind sheep now.Dan
I don't think you can make any excuses for killing women and childeren. None.
Yeah, they were persecuted, driven out and were threatened most of their lives.
But killing women and children? Nope, no sympathy from this Ladder Day Saint.
I suggest you read the book that recently came out. Very well
written and insightful.
I never said that those involved were innocent, just that I can see how
confusion could reign.Like they say, knowledge literally is power.
"Hey DTA," I'd agree 100% there's no excuse for Mountain Meadows. But we do need
to consider the explanation and learn from it so it never happens again.
Explanations aren't excuses. That's where I'd hope "Dan's" FIRST paragraph was
eventually headed, though he sadly trashes it by his truly curious invitation in
the second. We LDS really need to move past this attitude of
"proactive defensiveness." A careful study of the D&C and Church history shows
that the Lord expected the early Church members to try harder to make more
friends and be better neighbors in Missouri, Illinois, etc., than many of them
actually did. (See D&C 82:22, for instance--and I doubt the Lord was only
speaking to 19th-century Mormons.) I'd never say the persecution wouldn't have
happened, but there would clearly have been less of it had they followed this
counsel.That lingering enmity was part of the *explanation* of
Mountain Meadows. If we *expect* and *invite* others to attack us today, aren't
we perpetuating something of the same attitude? We don't need that. Let's move
I'm pretty sure "confusion" could be considered an excuse. Knowledge is power
and communication of knowledge is just important.At the other
comment, I never said that we shouldn't consider the explanation. I agree, we
need to know the facts about what happened up to the massacre. It's just
interesting that people try and defend the people who did this. Hopefully we have learned from it and men who are in a position of
responsibility will follow their leaders.
I'm impressed with the way the Church has handled this site and their relations
to the association of descendants. Allowing both groups to provide input will
make the site a proper historical memorial. As a member of the Church, I've
really enjoyed seeing how the Church and other groups have collaborated on many
sites and places like this to allow for the best access and potential of these
Just let this fade away. Why commemorate it? I disagree with doing more. (I
know a lot about this matter).
The 1:05 poster here. (Not "Dan," the original DTA.) True, explanations can be
used as excuses--it just depends on how they're construed. We do need to be
careful about how we're expressing those. We need explanations RATHER THAN
excuses, fully agreed.Yet it's often the case that when we fully
understand some deeper nuances of the explanation, the action makes more sense.
Some apologists might well know enough that they can say, for instance, "Oh--now
I can see why John D. Lee did what he did." That level of understanding is
commendable--but then using that knowledge to form an excuse for his behavior
isn't. So I wouldn't agree with that leap, either.It's better for us
to reach that level of understanding and assess exactly where those involved in
Mountain Meadows went wrong. Then, as you indicated, we apply those lessons in
our own lives, with the determination to (as the Book of Mormon itself puts it)
"be wiser than [they] have been." That way, we avoid repeating this
re: DTAAt what point did the Fancher Party act as if they were going to
kick out the Mormons? California was their destination, that point isn't
debateable.How can you say the Mormons were worried they would be kick out
again?The lds people involved were 100% wrong. There is no excuse.None.
My wife I have ancestors on both sides of this tragedy. We are comfortable with
the approach of:1-Learning all that we can about the tragedy without
judging the individuals involved2-Honoring the dead as the Church and
other organizations are doing3-Knowing that no one gets away with anything
in this life and judgement and consequence are left to our Savior, who knows
all4-Not building hostilities toward either sideSome of my
ancestors joined the Church in Kirtland in 1830 and remained true to the Prophet
Joseph all their lives. As a result, they were dealt many tragedies. I'm also
comfortable with allowing all judgement of those incidents to remain in the
hands of my Savior and I will not allow my emotions to be wasted on senseless
judgments of others. I can become more like the person my God wants me to become
by doing these things.
Who are you kidding? You are no LATTER DAY SAINT. You don't even know how to
spell "LATTER" You gave yourself away. I am not LDS, but I agree with the first
poster. We don't have any right to judge the Mormon people of that day because
we were not there, and we have no idea or know what prevoked this fight with the
I meant provoked.
I understand that the LDS Church is working with Mountain Meadows Association to
put the Massacre site under federal protection. Once the Feds get control of the
area, its condition will deteriorate. The Federal Government will not maintain
the site as The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has done. The
descendants of the Fancher/Baker wagon train will regret the decision to remove
the Massacre site from LDS control expecially when they have to pay a fee in
order to pay respect to their ancestors. That is the way the Feds work.