It is good to see that the church is finely accepting Brigham Young's
involvement in the massacre. It was a sad tragedy but we all must push on.
Your assertion that the Church "is finely (sic) accepting Brigham Young's
involvement in the massacre" is, unfortunately, a figment of your diseased
imagination. The Church is accepting nothing of the kind, certainly not because
Bagley believes it.By the way, it's "finally", not "finely".
Re: EichendorffWow, it looks as though someone kicked a Brighamnite in the
shin and knee pretty darn hard. That was cold my (not) friend. I don't think the
comment was centered towards you personally. Get a life with your own DISEASED
mind! Good grief!Blindness hurts.
how come the Moron Meadows Massacre blogs are always the most intense? it looks
like Eichendoff has picked a fight of denial. Ummm, this is part of church
history that seems to raise the wires on everyone's necks.
Dear Eichendof, even though it may hurt, it is better to know and accept the
truth. Brigham Young was involved in the MMM. He was directly or indirectly
involved with anything and everything concerning the church authority and
actions in Utah.
Avart...ditto on that.
Please cite your proof! Oh, I'm sorry, imagination doesn't count.
"RE: Avart"...ditto on that.We demand proof, not specious
There are still many questions unanswered fully and the debate and research
continues. I would like to see Richard Lyman Bushman target it for a book. His
integrity and respect in historical research and evaluation is widely held in
and outside the church.
Sorry to wake you up, but there are many unsolved crimes and unconvicted
criminals, Even though they are known,, nevertheless, they are no less guilty.
Everything does not have to be proven to be known. Just like at testimony
meetings. So maybe imagination does count for more than you give it credit for.
One is only ignorant to deny the massacre and the mormon church role. It is like
most things in the church, take the good and ignore the bad. Unfortunately the
sum of the bad or false teachings surpass the good.
Nice to see the church accepting responcibility. Now it would be great to see
the finances and get a look into that whole mess.
The MMM was a terrible tragedy on both sides of the isle. I don't think the
church ever denied any responsibility. The discussion has always been how much
is there to bear. These are questions that will probably never be answered
because those who could are long gone. A group of individuals who belonged to
the Mormon Church made some very bad decisions and a tragedy errupted because of
it. The whole situation is very sad. It is also sad that these same
individuals felt so threatened by the terror they had experienced in their trek
into Utah that they felt they were possibly in danger somehow. Bad judgment by
many caused the tradegy before the Mormon pioneers came to Utah and then after.
I think it is time for forgiveness by all. That also includes Mormons
forgiving those mobs who murdered their members everywhere they settled before
they finally settled in Utah. Much regret has been expressed, as well as
apologies from the Mormon Church for this tragedy. All very well documented. It
is time for all to move forward together to solve our country's bigger problems
in places and ways that actually are productive.
I know many members have tried apologized to these people to no avail. It's
better to let this rest and get on with our lives as members of this great
The saddest day about the MMM is that the MC covered it up for years and years
and years and years... and yet they try to tell me and my family how truthful
the MC is.horse pucky.
Members not need apologize. If it is true a proclaimed prophet and a man of the
Lord directed this deed. I want to hear it from today's self procaimed prophet,
then I will know the fallicy or non-existence of modern revelation is true.
Give it a rest already. My grandpappy always said, you don't beat a
dead horse. Forgiveness involves forgetting--on both sides. What
does it accomplish bringing up all the old garbage which happened? I am
responsible for what "I" do, not for what my grandpappy in Arkansas did.If you choose to be bitter, full of venom and miserable..wel that's is
your choice. But your choice will only bring on more misery for yourself. Just
forget about it! That wasn't you in Mountain Meadows, that wasn't
you who came from Arkansas. We have forgiven the Japanese and Vietnamese, and
these major conflicts happened not long ago.So how Christian are we
who do not turn the other cheek and forgive. As the Lord's pray says: "Forgive
us our trespasses as we forgive others." Isn't that what love and happiness are
all about--AND the true basis for Christianity? Not wallowing in poison.
Well, heck folks-- There is nothing you can do today to bring Brigham Young to
stand trial for the MMM. He took his secrets to his grave. I know he was a
really angry man over the outsiders coming into SLC who were harassing the
saints, so you need to understand Brigham Youngs's anger and now let it go to
It is true that many members who are descendants of the perpetrators have
apologized to the descendants of the victims of the MMM. They act insulted and
will not forgive and usually like to start an argument (OVER BRIGHAM YOUNG BEING
THE MAIN PERPETRATOR FOR THE MMM) and the LDS members rather than to simply let
this go. I feel so sad that these people have so much hate towards members of
the church today, who had nothing to do with the massacre. The victims
descendants think Brigham young is guilty no matter what you say to them and WE
cannot change their minds no matter how nice or good we may treat them. It seems
useless to me.
Wow it is really convenient to be God's Chosen People. You can brush off MMM by
saying 'get over it', like it was akin to not being chosen cheerleader. The
problem is that you Mormons posit yourselves as the arbiters of morality--you
have the first and last word on who and what is moral, and of course, repentance
is always for someone else--never for Mormons or the MC's leaders. I am taking
my 3 kids to MMM memorial this summer, as I want to remind them what Mormons are
capable of when they esteem you an enemy--whether you are or not. As a proud
homosexual father of 3 boys, I have seen what the MC is still capable of in
demonizing, vilifying and marginalizing my family in California. Of course
Mormons want to 'move on' ....they have new 'enemies' (gays) to go after!!
. . . and how long are we going to beat this dead horse? I heard
about this almost 40 years ago in seminary (Yes, it was in the seminary text),
felt bad about it then; still feel bad about it now. Okay . . . I'm done. Let's
It will end when the LDS church admits Brigham Young stirred the pot, and when
they admit that he was responsible for the massacre...... The End.
Mountain Meadows was a sad thing in the history of the Church. So was the
martydom of the Prophet Joseph Smith. Who did the coverup, the Church in Salt
Lake or the local authorities at Mountain Meadows? Some will say Salt Lake but
whether Brigham Young had anything to do with it, I feel is irrelavant today.
I hold that if Brigham Young had anything to do with it the Lord
would have removed him just as he did with David in the Bible. Therefore, since
Brigham Young continued to be the President of the Church until his death, just
knowing the scriptures and how the Lord works, Brigham Young's participation was
just as reported by the Church. The local authorities took it upon themselves
and when Brigham found out he took it upon himself to rectify it.That is my take. He was/is a prophet of God. He is also a man that makes
mistakes just as the rest of us do. We may never know in this life what his
punishment was but I'm sure he agonized over the events the rest of life in
To BILL Remember your opinion is NOT the opinion of the world or every other
man. Brigham Young could also show great hostility as well.
So many expert here on this little forum, but nothing to back up what you say.
The truth will be told someday. Hostility by the way in not bad if it's done in
a righteous way, remember Christ and the Money Changer in the Temple. I will
not pretend to know what happened at MMM, but with all the education that is put
into it, there are still two sides to the story, and that will never change.
You obviously aren't able to be objective on this issue. You've got a "get
Brigham and the church at all costs" mentality, perhaps so that you can somehow
justify your lack of allegience to the LDS church. If you don't believe in the
church, then just don't participate in its programs . . . but don't insist that
history be rewritten to make you feel better about your personal prejudices.
Possibly you are speaking for yourself. Some of us know the truth and that is
that BRO-Young was the head of the massacre. That is that!
Nobody knows what really happened to provoke the Mountain Meadows Massacre, and
we all need to leave this alone once and for all.
ExMoDon; are you going to take your kids to all the sides were your 'SO CALLED"
good non member people who brutalized early church members? and took their
lands, homes, Temples were all taken and burned and members killed and women
raped? No I don't thank you will. All people can do is point out what happened
at MMM. You all seem to thank that what was done to church member prior to MMM
is ok because you never speak of is. The Church members at MMM made a deadly
mistake and God will deal with all involved. So where is your anger agent the
people who murdered early church members, Men, Women, Children? Where is your
hearted of this? I believe that all who were involved in murder on both sides
should be prosecuted, there dead so God will deal we them. Let us learn from
the past and do better, however, I don't see this as so many of you wish to hate
us because of what happened all those years ago, yet you don't hate those who
murdered early church members, why is it you don't hate them?
Years have past since this took place but many are still living in the past.
Whether the world cares who Brigham Young is doesn't matter. The fact that most
of the World around Israel thought that Jesus Christ wasn't the Messiah still
doesn't change the fact he was.The other is that God chooses his
prophets, not man. Brigham Young was a prophet not an opinion of mine but a
sure testimony to the fact. There is no change in that. The Church has stated
that he didn't authorize the massacre. That I believe to be a fact and it is
too bad so many are willing to change that. This is history and we must learn
from it. David created out and out murder for nothing more than the lust of his
body. He paid for that and we have the Bible to tell us so.The Lord
has spoken of this through his authorized ministers and that should be the end
SFC RET DENNIS,There were not "two sides" - the Mormon and the
anti-Mormon sides. The anti-Mormons who harmed early Church members were FORMER
MORMONS (and many CURRENT MORMONS)! They were people who had their money taken
by Joseph Smith in his failed Bank in Kirtland. They were people who had their
daughters "taken" by leaders of the Church. You make it seem like the rest of
the country was against the Mormons. They were not. The persecution in the early
Church was Mormons against Mormons. Period. To "hate" those who persecuted early
Saints is to hate Mormons! Do some real research and you will see I tell the
truth. You will be hard pressed to identify very many non-Mormons who persecuted
the early Mormon Church.
No one used the word 'hate' but you, several times. The people who brutalized
early Mormons were murderous mobs--no one is justifying what they did nor can
they. The problem is that Mormons hold themselves to be 'God's Chosen'--the
ONLY people who are right and the ONLY people who have God on their side and the
ONLY people who speak for God. So perhaps you shouldn't complain when people
hold you to a higher standard and higher scrutiny. FYI I already took my kids
to Palmyra, the Joseph Smith Farm, Cumorah and Carthage Jail because I wanted
them to understand that Mormonism is a part of our heritage.I have decided
to take them to MM because now that the MC has decided that our family (I am a
gay father) is worthy of discrimination and demonization--I want them to be
prepared for what 'God's People' are capable of. If you don't like that, then
maybe the MC should leave our family alone--we will return the favor.
Who pays Turley's paycheck?Oh, that's right. The Church.So I guess if he took a stand that Brigham Young - a "prophet of God" - was
guilty of ordering the MMM, what would happen to his paycheck?The
Church has plenty of money, and they have plenty of "scholars" on the payroll
who are willing to write whatever the Church wants them to write. If they don't,
then the Church will discontinue their status at the University (the way they
did to Michael Quinn), and hire some other foaming-at-the-mouth-zealot in their
I forgot I also took them to Nauvoo when my parents were missionaries there.
All I know is that there are records being hidden away by the LDS church, THE
HBO SIRES "BIG LOVE" SAID SO! There was a big discussion about the M M Massacre
and Polygamy. Time to come clean folks.
Record Straight, I don't know where you get your information but you are
wrong. It was nonmembers who did the crime. There may have been some who left
and did persecute the early members but the majority was non members. Before
you go mouthing off get your fact straight. From the time the church was
founded members were being murdered and persecuted and at that time there were
none who had left the church. I will never understand why people like you
refuse to accept the truth and feel you must twist the truth to fite what you
wish to believe. I don't hate your religion or anyone ells and I will never
till you or anyone ells they are wrong to believe in God, believe what you wish
or not believe it is all up to you and everyone ells to choose how you wish to
believe in God and when the time comes to be judged by God he will decide our
fate and he will look at how we treated each other and if we judged others, for
he did state that we should not judge others, yet ye do judge us falsely.
The Mormons just need to learn they are not anymore superior than anyone else
on this earth. I am sick and tired of this holier than thou group of people. Who
gave you guys permission to call yourselves gods anyway? And please don't tell
me it was god, because that is a bold face lie. This same kind of thinking is
what created the MMM. People just need to quit lying and start tell the truth.
Lying will not get any of you into heaven and to become a lying god to lie for
all eternity. It just won't happen people.
Awesome!! Real Men used to be able to post Real Truth here. What a refreshing
exchange over today's rules, censors and wussy editing.And The
Truth shall make you free....