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Readers' forum: Bigotry will backfire

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  • Stephen
    Feb. 23, 2009 12:27 a.m.

    Senator Buttars reminds me of the ole Governor George Wallace of Alabama. George said, "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow and segregation forever". What a sad, but apt comparison.

  • Re: "enlightened and progressive
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:03 a.m.

    I'm glad to hear that Ms. Storni acclaims herself as "enlightened and progressive" as opposed to those professing a differing opinion. I suppose also that she does not profess herself to be mean spirited by calling Mr. Buttars a bigot for expressing his personal views, no matter how they may offend some. If others want to steriotype all Utahns in the same category as Mr. Buttars, that is their ignorant problem, but, sorry, it does not bother me. Any of us are free to express their opinions no matter who they are or what office they hold. Isn't America great?!

  • Chino Blanco
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:06 a.m.

    Reading some of the coverage of the recent live debate between the Sutherland Institute and Equality Utah, what stood out the most to me was Sutherland president Paul Mero's insistence that gay people don't even exist. That's right. According to Paul, they're all just making it up, and that makes Paul an extremist: he refuses to talk and instead tries to wish away his opponents.

    A little more moderation in all things, including politics, would do Utah good.

  • Whose bigotry?
    Feb. 23, 2009 6:40 a.m.

    The utterance of Senator Buttars was far from bigotry. The hateful speech of 'gay' activists are deily printed by the Deseret News.

    This is completely unjust.

    As for local polls. I took part in one, that showed those who felt that Buttars was harshly treated by the Senate. At the time the poll was supposed to be terminated sixty percent felt that Buttars treatment by the Senate was "too harsh", but the poll kept on going. I presume this was so that networking 'gay' activists could win by having people sit up all night, all over the country, to win by sheer persistence where others had to go to work the next day.

  • Bad national news...
    Feb. 23, 2009 6:52 a.m.

    It is sad that so much of the national news coming out of Utah centers on our backward and embarrassing actions and quotes of our leaders. No wonder Utah has such a hard time attracting new businesses to our state. Not long ago, there were stories of how Utah wanted to attracted California's high tech industry... but the state continues to shoot itself in the foot with people like Buttars and his unapologetic bigotry against Black babies (last year) and gays (this year). The very fact that Buttars get re-elected by his constituents confirms non-Utahns' perception that the whole state opposes "outsiders" and is hostile to non-whites and non-Mormons.

    I agree that Buttars is today's George Wallace of Utah.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 7:37 a.m.

    Utah has some of the nastiest far-righters I have ever seen.

    Draw attention to this fact every chance you get.

    Never let a bigot get away with their open bigotry.

  • Yikes
    Feb. 23, 2009 7:59 a.m.

    Ok, so Buttars said some pretty asinine things. He still has a right to say it, no matter how you paint it. His behavior toward non-LDS folk is sad and I hope that he has a change of heart, for one will attract more flies with honey than with vinegar.

  • swingboy3
    Feb. 23, 2009 8:01 a.m.

    Maybe I'm not "enlightened" but I don't see how what Buttars said makes him a bigot. He simply had the guts to say what many of us would like to say publicly. The fact that he is being censured for opinion is appalling. The fact that a minority can try to make me feel guilty because I don't agree with what they do is disgusting.
    What bothers me most is that I have to be politically correct. Political correctness is a front for an attack on the conservatives. There is an attack on conservative values. They are values which have upheld this nation and many other nations until fascism and liberalism explains away the values which brought prosperity. Homosexuality does not bring prosperity, only depravity. We will likely find this out the hard way as we accept this sexual deviancy and our moral atmosphere declines even further which does affect more than just peoples bedrooms. Sexual depravity affects our children our morals and our spirituality, and these all affect our economy our prosperity and our happiness.

  • No, anonymous!
    Feb. 23, 2009 8:21 a.m.

    I will never let you get away with your pro-gay, anti-Utah bigotry, no matter how many boring, hateful totally predictable posts you make on every subject.

  • Tired of the Gay Bigots
    Feb. 23, 2009 8:26 a.m.

    So let me understand this. It's okay for gays and so-called gay rights activists to verbally and physically attack the LDS church (its doctrines, members and buildings) all in the name of attaining their rights, but its bigotry for someone to say they think homosexuality is a sin and the gay rights tactics are similar to terrorists?

    This is typical homosexual tactics to accuse people of bigtry and mean-spiritedness who does not happily and fully embrace their abnormal lifestyle.

    Watch carefully America and see where we are headed because they will not stop until they are fully accepted and if anyone disagrees they will be persecuted into silence.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 8:58 a.m.

    I am ecstatic to hear that we are making national news over this and I am hoping the rest of the country does look at us as "backward." Then they won't come here. If we keep them out then the homosexual population in Utah will die out on its own or if we are really lucky, they will get tired of our "backward" ways and move out!





  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 8:59 a.m.

    Dominique: The argument here is not whether gay people should have equal rights, but what are the "rights" that should be equal. If we could come up with a definition of what things are "rights" that we could agree on, the problem would be solved.

    I have no problem with gay people having equal rights. They already do. The things they are pushing for go well beyond rights, and begin to look a lot like special treatment.

  • Tired of Gay's
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:00 a.m.

    Please leave. I believe California and Massachusetts would welcome you. I here there great places to live.

  • Cosmo
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:10 a.m.

    Dominique: your apostasy is showing.

  • Interesting....
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:26 a.m.

    ...the fact of the matter is that people have a right to agree or disagree, not rocket science. If people don't like it here in Utah, then leave, move to California or Massachusetts. This a conservative state and honestly looking at the dreaded mess the left and right coasts are in, I hope it stays conservative. It's not backwards at all, it's just that we believe in traditional marriage. People have a right not to be politically correct.
    Again, not rocket science.

  • Oh My!
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:29 a.m.

    Why is it that gay supporters (no pun intended) believe that they are "enlightened and progressive" and that those who disagree with their agenda are "backward, bigoted, false, and stereotypical...."? With these statements they prove that they could not be further from the truth.

    Only the self-delusional can ignore history and still claim to be informed. Tiberius Caesar predicted Rome's downfall if the growing practices of "men's attraction to boys and men" was not curtailed. And then there was Sodom and Gomorrah.

    Like the deaf who attempt to convince those who can hear that there is no sound, only the ignorant can claim to be enlightened when they ignore the real truth that overarches this mortal world.

    To pronounce that you were a "Mormon youth" as if it were your credentials, only proves at one time you were taught to hear, but are now deaf and want others to believe that hearing is "old school".

    This is not only bigotry but true hypocrisy. All beings deserve respect but not their choices, acts or lies.

  • re: tired of gays
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:31 a.m.

    "I believe California and Massachusetts would welcome you"

    Like Massachusetts welcomed Mitt Romney and his tolerance of gay people?

    LOL!

  • Mormon Athiest
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:50 a.m.

    I firmly believe Buttars has the right to say whatever he pleases. And I have the right to vote for him or not. Based solely upon his comments, I would not be comfortable voting for him. It's that simple.

    Had he stated his position more respectfully and thoughtfully (as behooves any politician), that would be one thing, but he is getting dangerously close to Westboro Baptist Church territory here.

    I strongly disagree with his opinions (at least on this issue), and his manner of expressing them only makes matters worse.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 10:14 a.m.

    I will not leave. You leave. Move to Iran if you want your country run by a religious cult. This is the USA and we are suppose to be about freedom. A word you reich winger love to spout but have no understanding of.

  • KF
    Feb. 23, 2009 10:21 a.m.

    To all you bigots out there, how are you any different than the Westboro Baptist Church? How is Chris Buttars different than Fred Phelps?

  • Tropical island
    Feb. 23, 2009 10:46 a.m.

    I agree with the letter writer; we need to FORCE bigots to reform.

    We need to see to it ALL people have the same rights, that NO person of ANY minority group is offended ever!!!

    It only makes sense. Those who enjoy the privileges and perks of living as the general population/majority should RESTRICT THEMSELVES for saying or doing anything that could be construed as a critique or ridicule of anyone else.

    These persons in the MAINSTREAM who express such unreasonable expectations of PERSONS especially those not of like mind are ABOMINATIONS to the world.
    They deserve of all the hurtful treatment the MINORITIES can place upon them! Minorities who, by their very being, are more enlightened than the general population.

    If you buy this I have a tropical island in the Great Lakes to show you.

  • the final solution
    Feb. 23, 2009 10:53 a.m.

    Why don't the freakiest of the freaky bigots of Utah pack up their little handcarts and move out to the West Desert where they can keep their peculiar life philosophy to themselves, pay no taxes, have as many wives they want ...

  • Vince
    Feb. 23, 2009 10:56 a.m.

    Funny..

    How mormons felt they were persecuted at one time and now they persecute others..

    Its amazing how people can feel so bad about not being accepted in the past and now does the same thing to others.

    Remember how blacks couldnt hold the priesthood awhile back ago..

    Its sad how mormons are so hypocritical.. I left the LDS because of all its hypcrite members..

    You want to say you are tolerant but you are not.. You want to say you love everyone but you cant.
    You say you want equality and fair treatment but you dont give that to others either.

    Look as the anti gay comments from love filled mormons on here.. sounds like a lot of hate.

  • To Vince
    Feb. 23, 2009 11:15 a.m.

    Mormons did not "feel" they were persecuted:

    Their property was burned and stolen. Their women were raped. They were killed and driven from their homes.

    You do not suffer such deprivations, but take advantage of our hospitality and abuse it with further persecutions.

  • To Vince
    Feb. 23, 2009 11:32 a.m.

    I don't see any hateful comments from Mormons here. They are defending their beliefs, not attacking a group of people. The attacks are coming from the gay activists.

  • Are they all this way?
    Feb. 23, 2009 11:44 a.m.

    Judging by the absurd comments above, one would have to assume that not only are Mormons "a peculiar people" (as Gordon B. Hinckley once called them) but also an ignorant people.

    Are they ALL this stupid?

  • To To
    Feb. 23, 2009 11:54 a.m.

    We could say the same thing about Nazis. They weren't attacking a group of Jews, gays, and other "misfits", they were simply defending their beliefs in the Reich, the Pure Race of Ubermensch, and moral values!

    Duh

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 11:56 a.m.

    Buttars has the right to say whatever he wants, but gays do NOT have the right to marry whomever they want?

    How does that make any sense at all?

  • To Vince
    Feb. 23, 2009 12:03 p.m.

    It only sounds like a lot of hate to you and others who believe there are only 2 options - love and embrace, or hate. Believe it or not, it is possible to love people, and want rights and justice for them, and to associate respectfully and civilly with them, and still disapprove of their actions and disagree in the debate over cultural legislation. That's just never good enough for some people, who require total love and happy acceptance of all conduct before allowing someone to come out of the hate corner that radicals paint them into.

    So, do all Mormons persecute others, and wish the priesthood was still withheld from blacks? Are all Mormons hypocritical, intolerant, and unwilling to give equal and fair treatment to others, and filled with hate? Or, do the vast majority of them respectfully disagree with you on gay-rights issues, but you can't allow for any reason other than they're all filled with hate?

    For an honest answer, get off the comment board and associate with real people - You'll be surprised at the friendliness you receive if you're not the one filled with a lot of hate.

  • Mike
    Feb. 23, 2009 12:07 p.m.

    This isn't a Mormon/non-Mormon issue. This is one man's opinion, which the last time I looked, he has the right to have. If we are going to punish everyone who says something that offends the "thin-skinned" crowd, then we better get started. Grow up and deal with it. And while you are at it, if you insist on making this a Mormon issue, you might want to also include the Catholics, Baptists, American Episcopalians and Methodists, Focus on the Family, George Bush, Karl Rove, and the annointed one-President Obama.

  • @11:56 a.m.
    Feb. 23, 2009 12:15 p.m.

    1. There is no controversy over the word "say".

    2. Freedom of Speech is a First Amendment Right.

  • Mate2Frio
    Feb. 23, 2009 12:34 p.m.

    Take a look at Bash Back! and other groups like them. Their actions are terroristic and not condoned even in the gay community.

  • Not a right
    Feb. 23, 2009 1:35 p.m.

    The hate mongering, name calling, boycots and protests by the gay community is nothing short of astouding, especially when their message has been one of love and equal respect. Clearly their message is the same as their lifestyle - a big lie, that they have bought into. Nothing like believing your own spin.

    You have the same rights as everyone else: enter into marriage with someone of the oppostie gender, and there are only two. Just because that does not trip-your-trigger does not give you special rights to copulate with whatever or whoever turns you on.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 1:48 p.m.

    Sorry, Utah Neocons.
    But wholesale bigotry is popular only in Utah, Idaho and Mississippi.

  • Hypocrisy
    Feb. 23, 2009 2:02 p.m.

    Sure, Buttars has a right to say whatever he wants.

    However, where and when is definitely an issue. As are the consequences meant to follow.

    In a Sunday School class, he may talk about Homosexuality in the way that he did. However, in a documentary which he agreed with our government not to comment to, or on the senate floor? Nope.

    Furthermore, people act as if you should be able to say whatever you want without any consequences, such as losing leadership positions. Wrong again. Buttars has a right to the people that he's representing to carry himself much better than he has. Wasting our time on racist comments, Christmas names, and homosexual talk is not representing us the voters who are suffering with this economy.

  • To To | 11:54 a.m. Feb. 23, 2009
    Feb. 23, 2009 2:09 p.m.

    Wow, you have to equate Mormon's with Nazi's to prove a point? Are you serious, or desperate? That is nonsense.

  • utahs image
    Feb. 23, 2009 2:27 p.m.

    I find it ironic that there are those who whine about Butters hurting Utahs image. It is
    not as if California or other states (or gay activists), had a great image amongst everyone either. (I.E. Butters is no worse than Al Sharpton - but I am smart enough to know he is not the only person in New York) If a person hits me with a bigoted stereotype - it is an example of their problems, not mine.

  • Not a right | 1:35
    Feb. 23, 2009 2:30 p.m.

    And how quickly they forget...

    The hate mongering, name calling, boycots and protests by those supporting Prop 8 is nothing short of astouding.

    All of these actions were taken by those supporting Prop 8, including picketing, prayer meetings, marches, etc. Why do you villanize those that make their voices heard in the same manner as those that supported Prop 8? Is it just because they have an opposing view? So, these actions are ok only IF they are YOUR view?

    That is some twisted logic. I guess you are just "believing your own spin."

  • More power to Mr. Buttars
    Feb. 23, 2009 2:37 p.m.

    If ever there was a need to preach, teach and seek to enforce sexual control to the point of virginity until married and monogamy there after, it is now.

    We already teach against drugs, needle and other wise. Safe sex is not so safe when you ask the youngsters what it is. Did you know that oral and anal sex does not need a condom to be safe? It is, just ask your local average sexually active teen.

    Because of the effective decriminalizing of sodomy, and the understanding for the need to do sexually whatever with whatever, all are at risk of HIV/AIDS.

    More power to the clear speaking Mr. Buttars!

  • So, Dominique...
    Feb. 23, 2009 2:52 p.m.

    Well you're mostly right, umm correct...

    "It is time for it to listen to the silent majority and stop being frightened into submission by" Equality Utah, Utah Pride Center, etc, etc, etc...

  • Delirious
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:12 p.m.

    to 2:09 It's NOT nonsense! Go read Mountain Meadows Massacre on YOU tube. Then com back and comment.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:13 p.m.

    "When fascism comes to America, it will be a cross wrapped in the flag." - Sinclair Lewis, 1935

    Throw away the cross symbol (Mormons don't have a cross) and presto! Instant fascist ideology.

    Google the 12 warning signs of fascism, and see for yourself.

  • Gays don't listen
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:16 p.m.

    Gays do not listen to anyone but themselves and only for themselves. As usual, the cries from the left is "If I don't get my way, I will call you a terrible name that will get you into trouble, even if what I say is a lie." Truth is not a Gay strong point; never has been or ever wlll be. So for all of you thinking you can argue with narrow minded hate filled PC people: as they say in New York City- "Forget about it!"

  • @Oh My! | 9:29
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:20 p.m.

    I wish you would follow your own advice and truly study history to become informed.

    If you study the history of the Roman Republic, you will find that it fell AFTER the Emperors outlawed homosexuality and made Christianity the official religion of the Republic.

    Also, to best understand the meaning and intent of the writings that became the Bible, you should read the early texts. According to biblical scholars the "Sin of Sodom" was being unwelcoming and not offering shelter to travelers (also viewed as being 'full of pride'). These were considered grave sins at the time the book of Genesis was written since many people lived a nomadic life. Scholars, and the people at that time would have readily understood the message being communicated.

  • re: Gays don't listen
    Feb. 23, 2009 3:50 p.m.

    "Gays do not listen to anyone but themselves."

    Now THAT's a profound stereotype.

    LOL!

    Are you sure you're not talking about Mormons?

  • To Not a Right
    Feb. 23, 2009 4:28 p.m.

    So true - how quickly I have forgotten! Please enlighten me about the widespread vandalism, violent protests, terrorist threats, demands for donation lists to ruin the professional and personal lives of private individuals, etc., etc., that has been committed by supporters of Prop 8. My guess is you'll have examples of a few isolated incidents that Prop 8 supporters, by and large, condemn as loudly as you. There's not even a reasonable comparison between the civil debate Prop 8 supporters engaged in and the rabid violent reaction from those who lost the debate. If you can't win a debate, scream loudly and carry a big stick.

  • harold
    Feb. 23, 2009 4:34 p.m.

    In Utah the biggest intolerance issue is the neighborhood life where children are separated due to religion. I don't know how many times I have heard of families that end up selling their home in an effort to move to a neighborhood were their children can find playmates.
    I have lived in five countries and never observed social division among children caused by religion until I came to Utah. Nobody appear to be interested to deal with this. Growing up in this divisive society must have some consequence, perhaps it means attacking the gay as it is now out of fashion to attack the black population.

  • to:Re Gays Don't Listen:
    Feb. 23, 2009 4:56 p.m.

    You just proved my point. Thanks for showing what you really are- religious PC Bigot. Don't worry, I am taking my own advice. Why bother trying to tell you the truth: I am going to "Forget about it."

  • DaveCrea
    Feb. 23, 2009 4:56 p.m.

    I'm glad that someone is speaking out against homosexuality and the deleterious effects it is having on society. I get pretty sick of hearing my lesbian coworker talk about her sexuality all of the time. I had to ask her if we could talk about something else today. She seems to think if she talks to me about it all the time, then I'll get desensitized to homosexuality and accept it. I am sick of it and had to talk to my boss about it. He agreed that it was inappropriate for her to talk gay marriage and her personal issues at work.

  • To harold:
    Feb. 23, 2009 5:00 p.m.

    What a load of the same stinking refrain of "Mormons divide themselves from others" nonsense. Come live in the Bible Belt South and then get back to this site. Your comments are laughable.

  • Anonymous
    Feb. 23, 2009 5:49 p.m.

    Mormons bring on their trouble themselves.

  • What Bigotry Means
    Feb. 23, 2009 6:17 p.m.

    The gay community has revealed themselves to be the true bigots and hypocrites. The definition of bigot is:
    Bigot (n). One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

    True Mormons, and other religious groups, do not fit this definition of bigot because they are not intolerant of homosexual people, only the homosexual act. Gay supporters appear to be unable to separate a person from their beliefs. While Chris Buttars likened some members of the homosexual agenda to terrorists, he did not stoop to the broad personal attacks posted by gay backers in this very Readers Forum.

    Mormons have as a basic principal of their faith: We claim the privilege of worshiping the Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may. Not much bigotry there.

    This has now become an issue because the gay community is no longer content to simply live with their own choices. No, the gay agenda is to FORCE everyone else to CHANGE and endorse and support what others believe/know to be wrong.

  • @@Oh My! 3:20 p.m
    Feb. 23, 2009 6:52 p.m.

    What a convenient rewrite of history. Have you ever even read the bible or the history of Rome, or are you just recycling an opinion from The Advocate?

    Romans 1:26,27 (Apistle of Paul to the Romans) For this cause God gave (abandoned) them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature.
    And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the women, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

    What is Sodomy? Lot had men come to visit him in Gommorah. The men of the city called out to Lot to send them out that they might "know" them. Lot offered up his two daughters who had not know a man and the men of the city rejected the offer. Genesis 19:5.



  • It's Simple
    Feb. 23, 2009 7:13 p.m.

    1. Being gay is not a crime
    2. All Americans deserve equal protection under the law.

    It doesn't matter what you believe, or what your church teaches, about homosexuality. No one is forcing you to change your beliefs or to endorse or support it.

    All they are asking is to have the same rights you and I have. The right to visit a loved one in the hospital. The right to live and work without fear of being evicted or fired because of who you are. Rights that would also be extended to non-homosexuals in similar circumstances.

    This has nothing to do with religious beliefs. It's about Utah state law. And since when did one have anything to do with the other?

  • acceptance anyone?
    Feb. 23, 2009 7:54 p.m.

    we have all been in situations wher we were not accepted for ridiculous reasons. im surprised we have not taken those experiences as a chance to grow and not make the same mistake towards others. no one is asking you to be homosexual. they are asking that you let them live peacefully with the same rights heterosexuals have. stop generalizing, stop judging and open your mind to the solution. i say this on both ends of the argument. there are a lot of people who are bored and unhappy who get on these forums to share their mindless garble of unacceptance, we should not judge all lds people based on a few ignorant ones. in other words stop fighting fire with fire. oh and please @@oh my! 3:22 lets not use the bible for a accurate reference on history. thats an argument for a different forum. but if you are going to follow the bible then follow everything dont pick and choose out of convenience.

  • Flummoxed in Zion
    Feb. 23, 2009 9:45 p.m.

    Thank you Ms. Storni for a well done letter. Your assessment is absolutely correct. In time it will be easy to recognize that Buttars, Ruzyka and their ilk are on the wrong side of history. Similar changes in social conditions have had similar opposition in the past.

    It is so tiresome listening to those arguments that contradict known science, facts and psychological studies. And to stretch logic to suggest that choosing to love someone of the same gender is the greatest threat to America is simply ludicrous.

    But then, fear, bigotry and ignorance are not limited by knowledge and logic.

  • Conservatives
    Feb. 24, 2009 8:28 a.m.

    Cons everywhere love to toss out "free speech" or use some sort of "I'm non-PC" as a mask for their uninformed, bigoted, incorrect statements when they get called out on them. Yes you and Mr Buttars have the right to say what you want. I have the SAME right to tell you you are full of it. It is at that point you giants of critical thought run crying to mommy and put out the "free speech" card.

    -it works both ways cupcakes... and what's with those magic undies??

  • @ "Conservatives | 8:28 a.m."
    Feb. 24, 2009 9:15 a.m.

    Conservatives | 8:28 a.m.

    Yes, I'm glad you realise even people who you judge as, "uninformed, bigoted, and incorrect", have a right to voice their opinion.

    And I respect your right to tell Sen Buttars that he is full of it. You go for it.

    But the legislature should NOT be taking retribution against it's members for exercising their Free Speach rights.

    And what does ANY of this have to do with anyone's undies?

  • @@ Oh My!
    Feb. 24, 2009 10:09 a.m.

    Tiberius' prediction came true.

    The first Roman Emperor, Augustus, reigned for 41 years. Tiberius, already in his late fifties when Augustus died, ruled for 26 years.

    The emperor who succeeded Tiberius (Caligula) was a depraved individual who included among his flaws the effeminate vice.

    He reigned four years before being assassinated.

    Succeeding imperial reigns were often short and brutish by comparison with the tenures of Augustus and Tiberius. In 69 AD there were four emperors; 30 reigns lasted just a year or two, and many others little longer . Roman citizenship ceased to be the exclusive privilege of Rome becoming the right of all within the Empire.

    Emperors ceased to be exclusively Roman in 98 BC; only the institution of the Empire continued. The army became largely non-Roman. Claudius extended the Empire with the conquest of Britain, or part of it at least.

    The empire was twice divided and, to hold the Empire together, Constantine even appeared to renounce Sun- worship in favor of his own strange version of Christianity.

    The stability, extent and duration of the Roman Empire is often exaggerated. Rome's armies of German mercenaries even proclaiming their own emperors.

  • Free Speech
    Feb. 24, 2009 10:28 a.m.

    The Hon Sen Buttars used his free speech to make comments. The Utah Legislature are using THEIRS. And this is where the Mormons are getting their collective magic undies in a bunch.

    And every comment by Mr Buttars re: gays was either coming from a place of ignorance (not knowing), bigotry (not caring), or was incorrect (not applying knowledge). He is free to say what he wants, and get called out for it. But you Cons hide behind "free speech" to deflect. Just like you use "intimidation" to deflect when boycots are called against Utah and Mormons who heavily donated for prop 8.

    After years of Religious Right boycotting companies for advertising or supporting gay events or offering domestic partner benefits suddenly when that tack is turned your way it's intimidating.

    -both ways cupcakes

  • @6:52 pm and ROME
    Feb. 24, 2009 11:02 a.m.

    I don't read the Advocate. I DO read scholarly-reviewed text books and other historical writings.

    There are several factors that lead to the fall of the Roman Republic - homosexuality is NOT one of them.

    Here is what is accepted as the reasons for the fall of the Roman Republic:

    Internal turmoil provoked in 133 BC by economic stagnation in the city of Rome, slave revolts without and dissension in the military precipitated a period of unrelenting political upheaval known as the Roman Revolution, the Late Roman Republic, or the Fall of the Republic. In essence, the republic system of government underwent a painful and violent transition from irresponsible oligarchy to a more accountable autocratic form of government. It is possible to discern a pattern in the devolution of legal, constitutional authority in the Republic and to identify FOUR steps to the collapse of Republican authority:

    1. THE RISE OF POLULAR TRIBUNES
    2. THE RISE OF PRIVATE ARMIES
    3. THE FIRST TRIUMVIRATE
    4. CAESARS DICTATORSHIP

  • Confusion clarified?
    Feb. 24, 2009 11:16 a.m.

    Referring back to the original posting of "@Oh My", 3.20 p.m., Feb. 23rd, that poster seemed to confuse the Republic with the Empire, a basic error that does not suggest great familiarity with the subject.

    Once you had Augustus you had an Empire, not a Republic. It is the Roman Empire, as mentioned in the above post 10.09 a.m.) whose decline and fall is being discussed.

    Tiberius, as a Roman Emperor, was too late to predict the fall of the Republic. The original post (Oh My, 9.20 a.m.) talked of the fall of "Rome" (applicable to the Roman Empire) not the Roman Republic.

  • Republic and Empire
    Feb. 24, 2009 11:55 a.m.

    You are correct in stating that there is a difference between the Republic and the Empire.

    May historians have postulated on the causes of the fall of the Roman Empire. These causations include economic decline, increased taxes, Germanic invasions, decline in agricultural output, the rise of Islam and the list goes on. Each of these events could be individually overcome, but in conjunction they ultimately proved destructive.

    The idea that homosexuality brought down the Roman Empire was put forth in the late 1700's. This idea/myth has persisted though being discredited.

  • the truth
    Feb. 24, 2009 4:09 p.m.

    NOBODY is saying homosexuality brough down the roman empire,

    just that it was one the things they embraced,

    and that it's moral decay was symptom that the empire was falling,

    when a people and expecially it's leaders are no longer honest, and moral, humble,

    a fall surely follows, because the decisions and actions that come from that enviroment will bring it down.

  • The Truth?
    Feb. 25, 2009 8:36 a.m.

    No modern scholar cites homosexuality as one of the causes of the Empire's fall. Homosexuality was not something that was "embraced" by the Empire when it fell, as you suggest. In fact, the first law against homosexuality in the Roman Empire was passed by the Emperors Constantius and Chlorus, who ruled jointly in the 4th century AD, in the year 342.

    Christianity spread throughout the Roman Empire and subsequent emperors began to crack down on homosexuals in general. In 390 AD homosexuality was made illegal, with the penalty for engaging in such acts being burned alive in a public execution.

    Later emperors would use gays as a convenient scapegoat for problems. Emperor Justinian blamed homosexuals for problems ranging from famines to earthquakes and gays have been used as scapegoats for all of societies ills ever since.