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Group countering Prop. 8 backers' ad

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  • David
    Dec. 10, 2008 3:38 p.m.

    Blatant lies? One need merely google "mormon" and "hate crimes" to come up with some truth including the FBI willing to investigate multiple events. FYI The FBI doesn't get involved if people are just crying wolf. It is getting more and more difficult for me to support no on 8 when the only blatant lies seem to be coming from that direction.

  • Des News
    Dec. 10, 2008 3:44 p.m.

    Wouldn't the Deseret News take the ad? Or did the bashers just choose to run it in the liberal Tribune?

    I'd like to know.

  • David's bluff
    Dec. 10, 2008 3:56 p.m.

    Well I did a google search on mormons and hate crimes and the top three sites all reference events prior to the election.

    As long as you're googling, I encourage you to google murder and gay or murder and transgender. Take a look at how many gay and transgender people have been killed since the election. Then tell me more about the oppressed Mormons.

  • Let them cry
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:08 p.m.

    Every baby cries before they go to bed!

  • Yes
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:15 p.m.

    gays get murdered. So so straight people. Not only that, but straight people commit murders. So do gays. A couple of the most terrible serial killers have been gay, in fact. What does that prove?

    It proves that murderers commit murders. I can't justify murder by anyone of anyone--no matter what their religion or sexual orientation is.

    How can anybody?

  • Re: David's bluff
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:16 p.m.

    I googled it too. Just below those "top three" you refer to, there is exactly what David refers to. It's no bluff. So just because it's only in the top 6, not the top 3, you discredit it? A lie is also withholding the truth. YOU WITHHELD THE TRUTH.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:33 p.m.

    Good for them, it's never ceases to amaze me that some people will accept the support of anyone if it lends credence to their cause. I would have liked to have thought that the LDS church was above it, but their response to the various ads and support from people that have condemned and derided the church in the past seems quite the opposite.

    The more and more I witness the church's actions and reactions, the more I reallize that their number 1 goal as of late seems to be finding acceptance in mainstream America (and mainstream American religion in turn). So much for following the path of truth and light that comes by being the only church with the fullness of the restored gospel.

  • Wake Up!
    Dec. 10, 2008 4:59 p.m.

    Truth Wins Out director Wayne Besen also said that the NY Times ad "grossly distorted peaceful protests across the country that followed in the wake of the California vote."

    You call domestic terrorism and vandalism peaceful? Wake up Mr. Besen. The only thing that is distorted is your view about life.

  • Robb
    Dec. 10, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    Are you all for real? You all are trying to see who murders more? What does any of this have to do with the rights of people in a free country. We as Americans are hipocrates, we want freedom of religion, speech, press, and everything that we know to be right but we cannot give simple human deserving rights to gay people. Since when are we God? Show me where it is justfied to judge or even to force someone to believe the way you do. Noone would want another to come in their home and force them to live a different life so why are we trying to go into the homes and lives of gay people and force them to believe what we want? It is wrong! Christians burned, hung, and murdered hundreds of innocent people during the Salem Witch Trials and they swore it to their religious beliefs, if they were wrong as were thousands of others in any religion's history, how can you be sure you're not. Look back in history show me where persecusion of an entire culture is right? You can try to justify it all you want, its hate and its wrong.

  • Are You Kidding
    Dec. 10, 2008 5:03 p.m.

    Hey, I thought they were boycotting Utah! That ad seems to be adding revenue to Utah pockets! How do we get them to completely boycott Utah?

  • CP
    Dec. 10, 2008 5:10 p.m.

    Sorry but I'm sick of hearing everything that the gay-rights are doing. BORING!!! I could care less what's new on their agenda. BLAH BLAH. Whine whine whine. Whimper, whimper, whimper. Boo Hoo!

  • Richard
    Dec. 10, 2008 5:34 p.m.

    People have and are seeing the gays for the racist, hate mongering, dishonest, anti human rights bigots that they are! They are terrorist criminals that attack others and their views that don't agree with the gays anti-God, anti human rights and Anti-American agenda. The American people will not tolerate terrorist dictating their lives and the gays are trying to do that! The gays have driven such a split in society, that we will vote against every immoral, hateful thing that they do. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints teachs tolerance for all people, not their wicked, Hate Mongering, anti-God and anti civil rights agendas. Don't push it off on us. We don't want it.

  • Gay rights?
    Dec. 10, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    Who is taking away the rights of gay's?
    Nobody has said that gays can't be gay. Nobody has said that gays can't live together. Nobody has said that gays can't act like everyone else.
    The only thing that anyone one is saying is that marriage by definition has always been between a man and a woman and should always stay that way for the sake of the family. If the law changes to say that marraige is between any two people, then a married man or a married woman can marry anyone else without consequence to the law. Bigamy and polygamy is now free game. ya!

  • So-called Hate State
    Dec. 10, 2008 5:41 p.m.

    Threatening to burn down the LA Temple not a hate crime or a terroist threat? Nothing was done about it but closed gates and security. Comapring the LDS Church to Natzis is a hate crime! I am sick of hearing about it. My sister and other LDS people were verbally attacked personally by their professor who rubbed it in their faces that they were no better than the Natzis. President Monson asked us to show compassion. Did Hitler do the same to the Jews? The Natzis broke windows of Jewing places of worshop with rocks and shot through them. It all stated with hate crimes like these gay extremists are doing. Many gay people in the world are not like this. But the extremists are and must be stopped.

  • ? to the gay-extremists
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:24 p.m.

    I am just wondering what good your hateful efforts of protesting, vandalism,& abuse have done for your cause?
    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are now more respected by many other faiths for their example and of President Monson teaching us to show compassion and love our neighbor despite being under attack by them. What great love our church leaders have.
    And you call them haters? Before you blame and critisize other take a look at yourselves and what you are doing.
    STOP THE HATE!

  • Do something
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:37 p.m.

    I know everything the Church did to prevent such animosity from gay rights people. I understand where they are coming from even though I don't think they tried to reach out to understand us.

    BUT I have to say that President Monson did not do enough about this situation. I know that our leaders are much older and are more set in their ways but they really need to have a more open mind than that.

    What is Heavenly Father really trying to tell us?

  • Bobd
    Dec. 10, 2008 6:46 p.m.

    Richard,
    your comments, as is your apparent understanding of your religion and your country's legislature is a joke.

  • What...
    Dec. 10, 2008 7:17 p.m.

    a wonderful missionary tool. Keep it up....

  • J.C.
    Dec. 10, 2008 8:07 p.m.

    This over a month old now....THE LAW WAS PASSES GET OVER IT...why do we still have to hear about it every flippin day and night?...it needs to come to an end...there is other and more important news that needs to be told.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 10, 2008 8:24 p.m.

    Truth Wins Out rocks!

    Go get 'em!

    Where do I send a check?

  • You lost, get over it
    Dec. 10, 2008 8:26 p.m.

    Prop 8 won. Know what democracy means?

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 10, 2008 8:30 p.m.

    One more time for emphasis. To call the Becket Fund anti-Mormon is the most untrue statement I have heard all day.
    The Becket Fund has stood by the rights of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when they are trodden upon by government entities, particularly city councils and zoning boards. They have defended the specific rights of the Church of Jesus Christ on occasion and more importatly their defense of the general right to free expression and exercise of religion has benefited Latter-day Saints as well as all other believers.

  • webster
    Dec. 10, 2008 8:39 p.m.

    apparently tyranny of the majority.

  • Not rulled by the
    Dec. 10, 2008 9:56 p.m.

    ...and not ruled by the very small and morally corrupt minority...

  • Tom
    Dec. 10, 2008 11:13 p.m.

    I'm surprised to see comments by religious people that are so filled with hate. I didn't expect that.

  • Dr. Jack
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:55 a.m.

    Homosexuality is a social disease slowly killing our country's spirit and honor.

  • Kitchy
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:10 a.m.

    It is not hate when we are only trying to do what the Bible says. Men with men and women with women in an intimate relationship is wrong. We firmly believe that. We love our fellowman but do not always love and agree with what they do. Why is so difficult to accept that we are only following our consciences?

  • Bert
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:40 a.m.

    As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints I sustain the Prophet.
    The Church teaches that same-sex relationships are wrong in the eyes of God. It should be no surprise to anyone that the Church would support Prop 8.
    To do otherwise would be to stand by idly while another attack is made on the basic unit of society - the family.
    I accept that others passionately disagree with this position.
    Those for and against Prop 8 have the right to promote and explain the reasons for their positions. This needs to be done civilly.

  • Jer
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:54 a.m.

    How do I feel as a gay man post-prop 8? Am I angry that it passed? Heck ya! Am I going to go burn down a church because that religion is anti-gay? Um, no. Prop 8 opponents are domestic terrorists? Please.

    I'm a believer in freedom; freedom to worship, freedom to marry, and freedom to speak out. I have literally hundreds of gay friends and aquaintances and I don't know of a single one who is promoting violence against anyone. What we are doing is encouraging everyone who disagrees with prop 8 to continue to decry its passing and work to overturn it through any legal means.

    Yes, there are extremists (on both sides) that have broken the law and defaced property. The difference between us is that the gay movement wants to expand freedom and equality while conservative religious organizations want to restrict freedom. The church may say it isn't homophobic, but I won't believe it until I see them encouraging Utah legislators to pass laws that protect gays and lesbians from being fired or kicked out of their homes because of their sexual orientation. Its time to come together and find some common ground.

  • Dave
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:04 a.m.

    Kidding me. Most of us know people who have been involved in both violence and intimidation, vandalizing, and more. We're hearing it first hand, and it's often worse than we find in the papers. Don't tell me it's not happening. Don't tell me it's really 'their' fault, and we're all bigoted. Really.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:17 a.m.

    Tom,
    It's nothing new, religious or not, there are plenty of people in the world that simply don't think things out.

    You lost, get over it:
    I know what Democracy means, I also know the United States is not one. Do you know what a Republic with a constitution protecting the rights of all, not just the majority means?

  • Just one thing to say
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:57 a.m.

    WHO CARES?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

  • To Des News
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:30 a.m.

    The article said that the Deseret News wasn't approached.

  • To "Rob"
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:39 a.m.

    You said "Show me where it is justfied to judge or even to force someone to believe the way you do."

    Hey genius...what do you think the gay movement is trying to do? It is trying to force the rest of the country to accept the gay/lesbian lifestyle on the same level as legitimate marriage between man and woman.

    Who gave you the right to force me to accept something that I believe is morally wrong?

    Isn't it funny that these people preach freedom of thought...AS LONG AS that thought agrees with them. Otherwise, you should have that freedom taken away.

    Finally...if you don't like to live in a country where the will of the people matters--find a nice little dictatorship to move to.

  • Double standard
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:45 a.m.

    There seems to be a lot of double standard messages coming from the gay community right now. For example, Equality Utah is talking about finding "common ground" with members of the LDS church but then one of their staff people has a blog called Pieces of Gray where she talks about how important it is to shame people who disagree with you. How do you simultaneously find common ground with people you are shaming publicly?

  • hate shmate
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:46 a.m.

    Come off it. Both sides are having a tissy fit. Not the leaders of either side but the members of each society. I get it you wanted something really bad. Talking logic isn't going to work. Never does in a temper tantrum. The only thing that works is moving on. A generations worth of feelings will be hurt but so what we can't always agree.

  • No to Prop 8 needs to apologize!
    Dec. 11, 2008 7:24 a.m.

    Yes we are five weeks away from the election, but those who claimed they demonstrated peacefully at the Los Angeles Temple and at other cities, did so with such vengence and anger, that they caused fear for those who attended the temple to the point that they had to close the temple that day. The Prop. 8 backers proceeded to grafitti and hang their ugly posters on the walls of the temple. The temple is revered as the most sacred place of worship, and yet they forced the closure. How would they feel if the same acts were done to the Gay Pride parade? If they had to close the parades in select cities because they found a suspicious envelope along the parade route? Or if the parade floats tires were slashed? Your cause just became tainted because of how you reacted to the loss in the vote.

    The honorable thing to do is for you to apologize to the LDS Church because although they were major players in this, they weren't the only religion or group against your cause.

  • David
    Dec. 11, 2008 7:44 a.m.

    I made no suggestion that gays did not have crimes against them and suggesting such is libelous. In fact, according to the FBI, crimes against gays has increased while other hate crimes has decreased (though given recent events those statistics will change dramatically.) It is no way changes the fact that there have been hate crimes against the Mormon church and to suggest that we ignore Mormon hate crimes while crying out in rage against gay hate crimes is bigoted. All violent crime deserves justice, the problem I have is why the gays (whom I have supported) find a certain amount acceptable so long as their cause is brought forward. It reminds me of the bully at school that justifies the bullying with words of "he deserved it."

  • CharlieBrown2292
    Dec. 11, 2008 7:54 a.m.

    I would like to hear from those gays who want respect and tolerance for their alternate life-styles, but who still do not believe it wise and appropriate to question the fundamental principle that marriage and children belong to a family unit constituted by a man and a woman. It would take courage from their part, but would greatly contribute to their image and cause by reassuring many that gays do not intend to do away with a family model that has existed since the beginning of times.

  • Specifics?
    Dec. 11, 2008 8:03 a.m.

    As is typical with the Prop 8 opponents, this ad makes accusations without giving any examples of what it's talking about. It does not engage the thoughtful arguments of the "No Mob Violence" ad. It attacks the messengers, not the message, because some of the signers are anti-Mormons. It accuses the first ad of "blatant lies" without giving any specific examples of what it's referring to. It fails to take a strong stance in condemning violence.

  • Speedy Response
    Dec. 11, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    It was interesting how quickly the LDS Church Newsroom issued/posted a statement thanking the No Mob Veto attack ad from the Beckett Fund as if it was some global surge of support from mainstream religions. In essence the NMV ad was a fund raising pitch from ultra right wing activists capitalizing on the post Prop 8 chaos. I was surprised as the LDS Church is usually super cautious before going public, and all I could think was "do the Church know who these people are?".

    The original NMV ad was not cosigned by any mainstream denominations or credible religious institutions, but by political pundits like William Donohue, and conservative think tanks like the Institute for Global Engagement. My hypothesis is that the ad was designed to push Becketts web traffic and capture contact information via their online petition.

    The NMV paid advertisement was full of inflammatory rhetoric and was patently untruthful, and I'm surprised the LDS Church wanted to be publicly linked to its message or the hateful senders.

  • Reed
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:03 a.m.

    Two of my ancestors were killed at Haun's Mill in Missouri. Many others lost their homes and jobs and were driven out of Illinois in the winter. Yet I have never been taught to hate or even be angry at these actions. I was taught to forgive.

    When Prop. 8 passed no one's right to live with who they want was taken away. No one's jobs was taken away as a result. No one's life was threatened. No one lost their home. But from the anti Prop. 8 extremists there has been one overriding cry "REVENGE!".

    Do you really realize how you are being perceived?

  • TO: CP
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:06 a.m.

    I think your lying. If you didn't care at all you wouldn't have read the article. In fact I will bet your very intrigued with it all. You read the article spent some time to write a comment. Yea, you sound very disinterested.

  • Me
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:08 a.m.

    The church of Jesus Christ of Latter day saints is just that. The church of Jesus Christ. It is his church. It's leaders receive revelation from God on how to direct the church. When the leaders say to support proposition 8 it is because God told them to say that through revelation. If people have a problem with that. They have a problem with God and that is between them and God.

  • To Reed
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:13 a.m.

    "Do you really realize how you are being perceived? "


    Probably like those who took revenge at Mountain Meadows. Not very Christlike on eithers part.

  • Roger
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:28 a.m.

    Yep, all the general authorities had a revelation to support prop 8. That is the way the church works. God is our leader and tells us what to do. So some of you need to get a grip out there and open your blind eyes, and have a perfect day in doing so. God loves you all!

  • CSTN
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:33 a.m.

    speedy response : Does the scripture " do good to those that hate you and dispitfully use you come to mind. there is some good in all but not all are good. Unlike the ACLU, who only comes to the aid of those that they deem worthy of their support, at least the NMV came to stand with someone that they don't agree with but felt a need to defend simply on the principle that ALL religion needs to be defended for it to remain free.

  • G
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:41 a.m.

    Ah, yes. Mountain Meadows. The one piece of Mormon history you can count on in every comments section.

  • Re: To Reed
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:48 a.m.

    Thank You for making my point! Those who were involved in that were excommunicated from the church and the ring leader received the death penalty according to the law.

    How are you responding to the church vandals, those who beat up the little old lady on TV and the other demonstrators at the temples who yelled out violent threats against those who were in the temple grounds?

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    "Truth Wins Out" is affiliated with the Human Rights Campaign; which I experience as being no more than a Gay KKK. It is a mypoic special interest group with no ability to temper its own hypocrisy and extremism.
    As a homosexual; neither organization (HRC/KKK)represents me.

  • SPEAK UP
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:02 a.m.

    Why aren't the conservative gays speaking up & silencing the radical gay element. Your silence mirrors the inaction of peaseful Muslems while their radical faction creates terriorist acts. I have so many gay friends for whom I have the greatest. Where are you? Why do you stand by & allow your image to destroyed by these radical elements! We have law that can be changed ONLY by use of a peaceful process. The radicals have set you back decades -- how sad you let the gay radical minority torpedo your cause! The few gay radicals have become your "Mulas" & have silenced your non-radical but forward moving & productive efforts!

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:11 a.m.

    Re: Re: To Reed

    When a little old lady actually gets beat up you might have some leverage in your commentary. She put herself in a situation just so people like you could overembelish the actions of an emotionally charged to push an overzealous and ignorant argument.

  • C.A. Piper III
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:11 a.m.

    To those of you who continually question he who created us all, save it for the time when you WILL have an opportunity to ask him how he can be so closed minded and bigoted. Should be interesting.

  • Dixie
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:28 a.m.

    The biggest problem in the world today is NOT oppression of religious peoples. The biggest problem in the world today is the tyranny of the religious peoples over others -- those who believe differently or those who do not believe at all!

    Proposition 8 was just another example of how the religious are forcing their beliefs on others through legislation, policies, the courts, as well as various forms of jihad and terrorism!

    Richard Dawkins is right, the religious are "enemies of reason" and "the root of all evil". God IS a delusion, and the "Watchmaker truly is blind!

    Christopher Hitchens is also right, god is NOT Great! Religion poisons everything!

    There are many intellectual atheists who proudly call themselves LDS and observe LDS rites, perhaps out of loyalty to family and friends, but also because of a confused and confusing willingness to label as 'religion' the pantheistic reverence which many share with its most distinguished exponent, Albert Einstein. Daniel Dennett was right about these people. They don't really believe, but they 'believe in belief'.

    As religion is the SOURCE of oppression, it does not deserve to be kept "free". The freedom to deceive and tyrannize is not freedom.

  • David
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:29 a.m.

    Mountain Meadow, you are kidding me?! I actually read "no man knows my history" by Fawn Brodie and a number of other books and I, an anti-mormon (or so I am referred to by others) understand why MMM occurred. Terrorize a group of people time and time again (with bodies left in the wake), threaten them with an Army and then sit by and pretend to act shocked when that group commits extreme and horrific actions. Then, of course blame the leader though there is no evidence that suggests he had anything to do with the event. Sorry, as sad as MMM is as an event, it is not surprising. We keep attacking other countries and you don't think they are going to respond? Oh wait, they have unless you haven't heard of Mumbai which targeted Whites in an effort to kill Americans or bombings in Iraq.

    It remains that Mormons ARE being attacked and that many people are ignoring those hate crimes because Mormons aren't in the popular crowd. That shouldn't be acceptable in the America in which I was raised just as hate crimes against Gays should also not be acceptable.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:31 a.m.

    More LDS double speech. No one wants vandalism. Every groups has extremist. The same people who tell you that Brigham Young knew nothing of Mountain Meadows wants to blame very protester for a few vandals. This is why Mormons seems to have values of convenience. You have one prophet telling the world that monogamy ruins nations and today Mormons are for monogamy. Is there is sound foundation in Mormon vales besides lying for the lord?

  • Too funny
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:34 a.m.

    One of the proudest moments in early American history was the Boston Tea Party. We teach it with honor in our schools in history class.

    While I don't support the vandalism of churches or anything else, the reality is that this country was formed by people looking for freedom from opression...abiet religion, politics or taxation!!!!

    Gays seeking to be treated as equals are just the latest freedom fighter to take up the cause for equality and justice.

    For those of you that preach from a religious stand point, your remarks (the mean and spiteful ones) really define what kind of a person you are. You speak for supporting your religion that teaches Christ's love, but your comments and attitude clearly demonstrate that you don't really either have a clue what Christ's love is about, or you don't recognize that you do more to damage your religion than your opponets do. Spew disregard for human equality but go ahead and send those missionaries. It is Irony at it's best.

    At the same time...Gay's need to respect the difference of opinion that religions have.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:41 a.m.

    SPEAK UP - The conservatives have spoken up, they're taking it to court as it should be. Just because the media is not interested in listening to anything that does not boost their ratings does not make it any less valid.

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:52 a.m.

    Re Bobd | 10:11 a.m.

    "When a little old lady actually gets beat up you might have some leverage in your commentary. She put herself in a situation just so people like you could overembelish the actions of an emotionally charged to push an overzealous and ignorant argument. "

    You are rationalizing beating up on an old woman?

    You embarrass me.

    re: SPEAK UP | 10:02 a.m.
    I am trying: but I feel like a single raindrop in the pacific ocean

  • xcuseme
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:01 a.m.

    Is incest a civil right? Afterall, if the father loves his daughter... or a brother his brother.... they should be able to marry shouldn't they?

  • Re: Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:03 a.m.

    I saw the tape of that lady just trying to make a statement for the TV reporter. The difference between you and I is that if I were part of the gay movement I would have been one the first to condemn the actions of the crowd, not justify it and name call those who brought it into question.

    You may want to read Sir Elton John's response to the passage of Prop. 8. I have a lot of respect for that man.

  • blacknwhitehorses
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:03 a.m.

    The African-American and Spanish-American voters were the MAJORITY in voting FOR Prop 8. Why all the emphasis on the LDS churches and the temple? OH...I get it...the gay/lesbian group knew their riots/violent acts would not be tolerated in the African-American and Spanish-American communities without some serious consequences. As for RIGHTS the gay/lesbians have rights like any other American citizen. The majority of us however still have the right to define marriage as between a MAN and a WOMAN. Prop 8 PASSED...GET OVER IT!!!

  • Screams of the Extremes
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:42 a.m.

    The wails coming from the extremes of both sides of this issue are both deafening and sickening. Our country is thankfully a very moderate and reasonable majority that have to put up with the hatred, venom, and idiocy of the extremes on almost every issue.

  • Blessed
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:46 a.m.

    Blessed is he that is persuecuted for my names sake! Keep bringing us the blessings gays. We will follow the lord till the end!

  • Elaine
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:01 p.m.

    As a Californian who voted Yes on Prop 8 I have not taken anything from the Homosexual community. In Calfornia we have civil unions which gives gays all the rights of marriage. That they can't file married on their Federal income taxes is not a state issue they need to talk to the Federal government. That they can't demand health insurance for their lover is an individual employer issue. Not all employers provide health insurance to family members.
    The claim that marriage is a civil right is wrong, no where in the Bill of Rights is marriage mentioned. They cry that the Church is interfering in a State issue when the truth is its the State interfering in a Church issue. That the Calfornia Homosexual community wants to impose its issues on the rest of the Nation is wrong. The court was wrong to over turn what the voters wanted and to make law from the bench. They gave rights to people based on their (the court's) views not on the law. Gays can still vote, own property, move where they want, live where they want, visit ill lovers in the hospital, and inherit. They lost nothing.

  • Kaley
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:09 p.m.

    MMM was inspired by god through Brigham Young. It happened so leave it alone! Prop 8 was also inspired by god, So now you need to live with it!

  • To Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:20 p.m.

    I thought I would take to opportunity to respond to you, since you take so much pride in responding to specific bloggers. Bobd, you sound like you have some intellect, almost like you might be half intelligent. It is the other half that I have a concern with.

    You are absolutely correct in your comment that this is NOT a democracy that we live in, it IS a republic with a constitution to protect the rights of the citizens. I am still on board with you so far, but the difference is this, marriage is not a "right" protected under such constitution. Gays and Lesbians have every "right" that I do, and I do not have any more "rights" than they do. Just because I choose to keep the definition of "marriage" being between a man and woman, does not constitute the violation of someones "rights". Again, "marriage" is not a "right" given or taken by the constitution.

    The problem is that pro-gay and lesbian proponents are trying to justify and rationalize that "marriage" is a "rights" issue, which it is not. "Marriage" is a union of a man and woman, has been the definition for ever!! (continued)

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:23 p.m.

    Oh Boy,
    I'm not rationalizing anything. The old lady was not beat up. Her little "cross" was taken and stomped on and her "bodyguards" moved her out of the way. That is not getting beat up. You are sensationalizing it to try and justify your hatred of homosexuals enmass.

  • Truth
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    Homosexuality is a Sin according to the Bible teachings. Pure and simple. The Church of Jesus Christ will not and CANNOT condone it in any way. Especially as it threatens the status of Marriage.

    How can the church condone homosexuality? The head of the church made is clear in the bible. It is a SIN. Human Rights are always clear. You have the right to obey or disobey God. That is Human Rights.

    You do not, however, have the right to accept or reject the consequences of your choices. Man can say homosexuality is natural, or you have no choice. Science can say the same. BUT, God is the ultimate source of truth, and stretch it, twist it, gnash your teeth, it makes no difference. God will not change His laws based on His children's whining and complaining. He said it was a sin.

    I'm not hobophobic, but I abhore homosexuality for what it it...destructive and devisive and against God's laws. As to the PERSON, I care for you, and sympathize, but as any other sinner, we must repent and change OUR ways to fit GOD's ways. Or not be with Him. That's it.

  • Re: Kaley
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:29 p.m.

    You anti-mormon bigots are getting more clever. First, Released documents for LDS Church archives reveal that Brigham Young heard about the potential of MMM on Sept. 11, 1857 (the day it happened) and told the settlers to let the wagon-train pass unharmed.

    Second, It was leaders in the Catholic Church in California that asked the LDS leadership for help on Prop 8. The idea was to protect the state from interferring with religon. Thankfully it passed. (See Elaine's comments)

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:31 p.m.

    Re: To Bobd
    Thanks for your concern for my intillect, I'll manage just fine without your critique of such though.

    Marriage in itself is not a right, but the religious right have turned it into such. When a $50 fee for a straight couple provides them with roughly 1500 legal priviliges that homosexuals either will never see, or cannot experience without putting up an exponentially greater amount of money in the forms of legal fees and whatnot, it becomes a right.

    In a truly objective move, the legal right of performing marriage ceremonies by religious institutions should be revoked by the state and the state should be the only issuer of marriage licenses. Then all citizens can hold the same legal standing and legal rights, and churches can do whatever they feel like doing within their own buildings. But a legislation like that would never pass because the religious right is simple minded and refuses to accept change that could be percieved as a loss of power and authority in the political process; something they are not supposed to have in our country in the first place given the first ammendment of our constitution.

  • To Bobd, continued
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:32 p.m.

    Yes Bobd, there is more, you are not getting off that easy my friend.

    My dear mother, taught me a valuable lesson years ago. She said I was never to complain about a problem, unless I brought to the complaining table a solution to the problem. Well I see nobody bringing solutions to the table, so let me go first!

    The stated problem is the justification and rationalization that the gay and lesbian team say "marriage" is a "right" that is being deprived from them. The proposed solution is this, make up your own definition for your own kind of union(s). Don't be so bent on trying to re-define the current definition of "marriage", use the creativeness that gays and lesbians have been noted for and be front runners, innovators, bring us a new word that justly describes the unions between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman. Heck, i see the opportunity to create two new words and take all the credit for doing such.

    I guess this "solution" is just to easy, just like the people in the old testament, that were told to bath three times in the river to be cleansed.

  • Re: Dixie
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    "Proposition 8 was just another example of how the religious are forcing their beliefs on others through legislation, policies, the courts, as well as various forms of jihad and terrorism!"

    Really? You're kidding right? Actually, you have it totally backwards. Proposition 8 was a backlash against a group of people who "are forcing their beliefs on others through legislation, policies, the courts, as well as various forms of jihad and terrorism!"

    Please! Tell me which of these acts haven't occurred in the fallacious name of "equality" by those who ramrod society with the radical homosexual agenda? Fact is, you can't!

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    Re: Re: Bobd 11:03 - internet froze and the posting didn't go through I think -

    I'm not justifying anything, I'm also not excusing the group for their actions, but I will say calling it "beating up an old lady" is grossly overembellishing their actions. They were wrong, and so was the old lady for provoking them; she knew exactly what was going to happen (as can be seen in her deliberate use of "bodyguards"). If a KKK rally walked into a southern baptist church in the middle of the sermon and began chanting racist comments what do you think would happen? Who is then guilty for the aftermath? Both are, and neither is a legitimate source of evidence for the ignorance or hatred of the other.

  • Muntz
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:43 p.m.

    Re: Re: Kaley 12:29 - It's nice to see the mormons trying to use the term 'bigots' for another group, it's just too bad it doesn't stick as well when they commit so many bigoted acts. If Hitler told the SS to take it easy on the Jews after his hundredth fiery speach would he be as innocent as you profess B.Y. is if they went through with the murder of the Jews after all?

    Truth:
    That's great, we all know this, even those that voted no on proposition 8, but those of us that have thought this through and not blindly followed the prophet reallize that abstinence and apathy to this proposition was the right thing to do. Gay marriage has nothing to do with my ability to practice my free agency, but it has everything to do with religious groups preventing others from doing the same.


  • Ken
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:45 p.m.

    It would be an interesting thing to watch God pronouncing His verdict on those who, under any banner, deliberately attack another. Maybe I'll get to see it. In any event, the perpetrators will!

  • David
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:47 p.m.

    Bobd, did you watch the video of the old woman and her cross? I would guess not or you would realize that despite my opposition to her personal views, she had EVERY reason to fear for her life as did the reporter interviewing her. She was clearly being tussled or legally (assault and battered) and as the after Christmas Walmart sale showed us, one could die from such behavior. Please quit pretending that anti-religious bigotry is acceptable even when they oppose what you personally hold dear as your own views. Anti-gay assault and battery is wrong and anti-religious battery is equally unacceptable EVEN if they are opposing your views. Wrong is wrong.

  • Boyd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:48 p.m.

    Truth:

    Read the Newsweek article about the Bible and gay marriage, I believe it's this week's issue. You can Google it. Sure, I could pick-and-choose parts of the Bible to support my position too. Did you know that Jesus specifically condemned divorce, yet never said anything about homosexuality?

    How about when Abraham slept with his servant when he found out that Sarah was infertile? The apostle Paul said, "A wife must not separate from her husband." Want to quote Leviticus? Have you read Leviticus in its entirety or just the couple of verses which mention homosexuality? Hope you don't consume any shell fish.

    P.S. Leviticus is actually a book of civil laws for the people at the time--the same people who thought the world was flat and the sun revolved around the earth.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:49 p.m.

    Re: To Bobd, continued,
    You don't need to let me off of anything, I'm not on the hook. When your mother taught you that, did she explain what it meant? Because I see you providing no solution, just like the church. The LDS church claimed they wanted gays to have equal treatment under the law, but since proposition 8 has passed they have been silent on every legal process taking place even within their own state. The only thing they seem to care about is the praise they are getting from the organizations that considered them hethens a few months ago.

    Proposition 8 in particular, as it requires a drastic change in the californian constitution that lists homosexuals as a protected class, completely ignored the legal rammifications. It was a simple "gays bad, marriage good" train of thought. The LDS church took a selfish approach of 'protect our beliefs over all others, the results be darned'. They (and the rest of the evangelicals that supported this since everyone thinks we're just picking on the LDS) did not provide a solution, they caused the problem.

  • Re: Re: Dixie 12:38
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:52 p.m.

    How is a homosexual getting married forcing one's beliefs upon you? How does that force you to believe anything? How is using the court system, which is a legitimate part of our government, a specific realm of the checks and balances to power, forcing beliefs on others?

    And where are the gays conducting Jihad? I wasn't aware they were muslim.

    Fact is you can't answer those questions without continuing to expose your ignorance on the issue.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:57 p.m.

    David,
    See my post above. Given my understanding of the situation I obviously saw the video.

  • R
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:57 p.m.

    The old lady was not "provoking them" but expressing her CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT to free speech just as the Gay crowd was expressing their right to free speech. Why was her act provocative yet their opposite side argument was not? I see it as hypocrisy at its finest. Both were attempting to picket on public property instead of your invalid "church" argument and the old lady was pushed around and her property was destroyed. Both of those actions were criminal and she has every right to seek justice for those actions which you excuse Bobd. Would you be so quick to excuse if she was pro-gay and the people pushing and destroying her property were anti-gay? My magic 8-ball says "doubtful."

  • Self perpetuating
    Dec. 11, 2008 12:58 p.m.

    It's interesting about how heated the hate is here. Satan is just loving this whole thing, as it is feeding itself now.

    Step outside the box, and look at it differently. What can you do to change the dynamics? What can you do to hose down this whole situation?

    Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer. Share a hug.

  • FYI
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:09 p.m.

    People in 1492 didn't actually think the earth was flat. Many scholars in different cultures had figured out that the earth wasn't flat and the universe is not centered around the earth before Columbus ever set sail. Its time we get rid of those stupid little sayings that just aren't true.

    For instance Michael Jordan getting cut from his high school basketball team. I'll admit he got cut when he was a freshman from the varsity team but by the time he was a senior he was a McDonalds high school all american.

    Or the daddy long leg being the most poisonous spider in the world its mouth is just to small to bit. Lol. Please people stop spreading lies. They thought the world was flat!! hahahahahaha

    Also, when I just scroll this board all I see is hate from both sides. Of one thing I am sure, HATE IS NOT THE ANSWER AND THERE IS WAY TOO MUCH OF IT FROM BOTH SIDES!!!

  • SJ
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:25 p.m.

    re: Dixie,

    Thanks for your opinion. Just one question, how do YOU know Msrs. Dawkins, Hitchens, & Dennet are right? From what I've read about and from them, and yes I did some research, all they do is express opinions and criticize any that disagree with them. But isn't that what philosophy is, expressing opinions and then convincing yourself through rationalization that your right? I'm really happy for you that you have everything figured out (haha), but what if (and this can apply to anybody) what if your wrong? Can you accept that possibility and the consequences that go along with it?

  • David
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:25 p.m.

    Bobd, if you saw the video and feel that the actions towards this woman and the reporter were justified, I am even more disturbed.

  • to Bobd:
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:34 p.m.

    the church finding acceptance in the main stream media?? Say what? HA!! What are you talking about man? Let me set you straight here Bob, first remember it was the LDS church that took the lead (largely alone) in funding and passing prop 8. If you happened to be watching MSNBC or any of the other "main stream" media outlets during the campaign you didn't find too many kind words being said about Mormons.The LDS church didn't kiss up to ANY media outlet. What has happened to the church is some of the worst mormon bashing since and twisted proaganda against the church since ole Governor Boggs himself was in power. As far the the LDS church's association with other religious organizations - YOU BET the LDS church has joined with the Catholics, protestants, Jews and others to protect marriage. Any thing wrong with that????

  • CA Prop 8 supporter to Jer
    Dec. 11, 2008 1:47 p.m.

    Jer wrote:
    Yes, there are extremists (on both sides) that have broken the law and defaced property. The difference between us is that the gay movement wants to expand freedom and equality while conservative religious organizations want to restrict freedom. The church may say it isn't homophobic, but I won't believe it until I see them encouraging Utah legislators to pass laws that protect gays and lesbians from being fired or kicked out of their homes because of their sexual orientation. Its time to come together and find some common ground.

    Please give me one example of a religious extremists that has broken the law or defaced property? Also, where have your "freedoms" been restricted by anyone? Do you not have the same freedoms promised by the Constitution that everyone else has? Where have you been living at that gay's have been kicked out of their homes or jobs because they were gay? Not in CA, or afaik anywhere in the USA. Please stop spreading the lies and stop trying to make it seem that your cause is justified by having your rights taken away.

  • CSTN
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    A Prayer from Billy Graham 'Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, 'Woe to those who call evil good,' but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery. We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare. We have killed our unborn and called it choice. We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable. We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self esteem. We have abused power and called it politics. We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition. We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression. We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. Search us, Oh God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and Set us free. Amen!'

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    Re: to Bobd | 1:34

    I never said anything about "acceptance in the mainstream media".

  • poor bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:18 p.m.

    after reading ALL your comments, and I do mean ALL , my heart goes out to you. It must be so difficult to deal with the struggle that you fight with night and day, every day. It must have been hard being raised LDS, and also having to fight your personal temptations, demons so to speak, of being drawn towards homosexuality.

    To answer your question, yes my mother did "teach me what it meant?". It is not worth fighting a war of words with you any longer. Your sight is blinded, to the bobd way or the highway mentality. People have tried to reason with you for years now, but if there opinions are not in accordance with your opinions, then you cast them aside and trample them. You seem to have an answer for everything don't you?

    Well not everything, you can not come to terms with that struggle, knowing the gospel of Christ is true, yet knowing that being gay is not right. The yearning to give into the base worldly desires and go against Gods laws and commandments. That internal battle you fight must be tremendous and painful. And, there is no "answer" for that.

  • Don
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:19 p.m.

    "Ah, yes. Mountain Meadows. The one piece of Mormon history you can count on in every comments section."

    Whoa! Do you mean to tell me that at some point in history, Mormons have been guilty of committing horrible crimes?

    I'll bet the Catholics never did anything like that.

    I'll bet an Evangelical never was guilty of murder.

    Jews have been spotless.

    Muslims are wihtout sin.

    Surely, an atheist has never even broken the law, let alone committed murder.

    Agnostics, Jehovah Witnesses, SDAs, Hindus - never once have they been in violation of morality or the law, right?

    Blasted Mormons! Go after every one of them for that MMM thing.

  • Re: Muntz
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:28 p.m.

    By your thoughtful response comparing LDS church leaders to Hitler and members to the SS I can tell you are someone of great objectivity and intellect.

    Just two questions: When is the last time LDS members have organized to protest a gay pride march or yell violent threats against its participants? Which prominent LDS senator co-sponsored hate crimes legislation to protect all minorities especially gays in the aftermath of the Matthew Shepard tragedy?

    Answering these questions, and many similar ones I could raise, might give you some perspective. The desire to preserve traditional marriage and being anti-gay are NOT the same.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:31 p.m.

    re: Poor Bobd

    You can readdress your commentary following these following revelations:

    1. I am a convert
    2. I am heterosexual
    3. I am happily married and sealed

  • Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:35 p.m.

    Re: CA Prop 8 Supporter - California is only one of a few states that provides legal protection against gays as a registered class of citizens. Plenty of people have been fired and discriminated because of their sexuality in states that do not have such laws. As Prop 8 specifically challenges the constitutional protection of the class, it directly affects the nature of the situation and the freedoms of the people.

  • Muntz
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:39 p.m.

    Re: Re: Muntz -
    I provided a sensational leader that brought the masses to their beck and call that all would recognized. I could just as easily use the Pope and the crusades as an example, or maybe David Koresh and the Branch Davidians if you would prefer.

    You validate the church with the actions of a few, while others (since you don't give a name, I don't know if you've posted before) condem the entire GLBT society with the actions of a few. It doesn't float.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 11, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    To CSTN,

    That is old, tired, and lame, and it wasn't Billy Graham!

    When will you MOrmons stop plagiarizing everything and then distorting and spinning it to suit your purposes? I have never come across such deceiptful people in my life!

  • To the liar who votes for tyrant
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:11 p.m.

    Anonymous,

    "When will you MOrmons stop plagiarizing everything and then distorting and spinning it to suit your purposes? I have never come across such deceiptful people in my life!"

    Have you looked in the mirror or at those you vote for. Or do you not see that those of us who are fed up with you and those who represent you are tired of you calling us deceitful and printing ads defending your right to harass us at our Temples and places of worship. How about we harass your mother at home for her decision to give birth to a moron who grew up to vote for other tyrants.

    You can have my dead body but not my obedience. You can call me deceitful but I don't care. What I do care about is that you and those who represent you are tyrants and want to force your will upon the majority through the Courts. How about telling your high school buddy turned voter turned Supreme Court Justice that a voter who went to another High School doesn't give a damn what he was taught by his dear mommy and daddy. What we care about is our liberty.

  • ReedJ
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:17 p.m.

    Re: Muntz
    Sorry about not posting my name before. All three of your examples involve leaders whose actions brought about death. That is where you are over the top.

    I have never condemned the entire GLBT community but found the comments by certain people such as yourself and Kaley extreme. I don't like to attack but have never been shy about defending.

    It might surprise you to know that one of my best friends in high school was gay and that he was murdered in Southern Utah in 1986. His murderer is on death row and for this reason I am a strong supporter of hate crimes legislation as well as civil protection for everyone against job discrimination, housing discrimination, etc.

    So when I and many others who support traditional marriage are targeted, I defend.

  • Oh Boy
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:23 p.m.

    re: bobd | 12:23 p.m. Dec. 11, 2008
    WHO WROTE
    "Oh Boy,
    I'm not rationalizing anything. The old lady was not beat up. Her little "cross" was taken and stomped on and her "bodyguards" moved her out of the way. That is not getting beat up. You are sensationalizing it to try and justify your hatred of homosexuals enmass."

    MY WORDS:
    I am homosexual so stop sensationaizing by knee-jerk assuming I hate homosexuals in mass and please dont embarrass me by trying to justify extremism from other gay activists. I dont need or want gay zealotry to be rationalized any more than most religious people want religious zealotry excused.

  • Re: Jer
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    Did I miss something? Since when is Utah law such that one can be fired or evicted based on sexual orientation? I'm pretty sure that's been illegal for quite some time now...anywhere in the country.

  • Re:Dixie
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:26 p.m.

    As religion is the SOURCE of oppression, it does not deserve to be kept "free". The freedom to deceive and tyrannize is not freedom.


    Lenin and Carl Marx had the same opinions. It is frightening to believe that these ideas are being resurrected especially in America.

  • oh boy
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    re: Anonymous | 2:49 p.m.

    I find it ironic that you accuse CSTN of being a plagerizing Mormon when they did not reveal their religion in their original post - so you dont know what religion CSTN is - and CSTN was trying to pin a name on a quote - so it is not plagerizing if it is referenced.

    So it is easy to simply discount your post as the real source of deceitfulness.

  • They target us and then whine
    Dec. 11, 2008 3:33 p.m.

    ReedJ,

    "It might surprise you to know that one of my best friends in high school was gay and that he was murdered in Southern Utah in 1986. His murderer is on death row and for this reason I am a strong supporter of hate crimes legislation as well as civil protection for everyone against job discrimination, housing discrimination, etc.

    So when I and many others who support traditional marriage are targeted, I defend."

    You have every right to be defensive. The idea that anyone can be singled out because of their vote and donations to a issue campaign is wrong. Every person who voted for Proposition 8 has a right to be angry. Those of us who defend traditional marriage have a right to be upset when we are targeted at our homes, work, businesses and places of worship.

    We have a right to be upset when a double standard is applied and Christians are attacked and harassed but no one mentions this because they are afraid to offend homosexuals. Tell the Christians who gathered together to sing hymns that the gays had the right to assault them and threaten to follow them to their doors.

  • Alan
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    External freedom means nothing if you are devoid of freedom of soul. Freedom of soul ironically stems from discipline, sacrifice, service, love of fellow man regardles of their disposition and rules and laws that facilitate peaceful co-existance. Freedom does not mean to do what I like, when I like and how I like. That is irresponsibility, not freedom. Laws are there for our protection. I can love a man and have total tolerance of him as a person. In doing so I do not have to love what he does. Man will only be free when he subjects himself to God's laws - or truth. Truth is unchanging and applies to all. True happiness is as dependant on truth as you are on air to breathe. If you are brave enough to look inside, you will know what is right. When I lie - I justify.

  • To Re:Jer at 3.26pm
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:27 p.m.

    Sadly Utah is one of several states that have no housing or employment protections for gays and lesbians, so yes you can be evicted or fired simply for being gay or lesbian in this state.

    Wikipedia has a good summary of current state laws if you look up the topic of ENDA (the Employment Non Discrimination Act proposed at the Federal Level). Its amazing to see how piecemeal and random employment laws are state by state, so a Federal Non-Discrimination Law would definately eliminate some of the confusion.

    Hope this helps.

  • Elliot
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:33 p.m.

    You Mormons should read your comments and take a step back.
    I am LDS and I am disgusted at the comments that the LDS people are posting!

    We are all the same on the inside, I would rather build on common ground then tear down.
    I think that if Jesus were here right now, he would not be posting hateful rude things that generalize "Gays" as monsters. I know that he loves us all the SAME.

    Sometimes as Mormons we think that we are better than others because we have the everlasting gospel, but that is not the case and never will be.
    We are lucky to have it, and we need to realize that it does not make us better than ANYBODY else.

    Same-Sex marriage does not offend me or threaten my personal values, so I am ONE Mormon who will not judge you, I don't care who you love, all I care is that you do love. I wish I could say the same about many of our LDS brothers and sisters.

  • Alex
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:35 p.m.

    "'There is a concerted and ongoing effort by anti-gay forces to portray peaceful marchers exercising their First Amendment rights as violent troublemakers,' said Besen. "

    No anti-gay force could have driven home the portrayal of gays as violent troublemakers better than gay protesters have already done. Who is more antigay? The gays or the antigays?

  • Moderate Mike
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:35 p.m.

    All of this is an important conversation to have.

    Gays are no less worthy people in God's eyes.

  • poor bobd, phase two
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:38 p.m.

    Oh bobbyd, bobbyd, bobbyd, our therapy session is almost complete. Our last exercise will use your stated "revelations", number 1,2, and 3. Now I will keep this brief, because your session time is about at an end, so here we go.....

    Just accept yourself for who you are, you have to stop trying to be someone or something else, just to please those around you. The struggle will continue to grow harder and harder the longer you attempt to be something that your not. For example, "revelations 1,2, and 3.

    Make an appointment with my receptionist for next week, but if you need to talk to me before then, feel free to call.

  • Ellyn
    Dec. 11, 2008 4:44 p.m.

    Ok, what is the difference between a crime and a hate crime really? If someone murdered a 12 year old boy isn't that hate? Does the color of his skin make it worse than the crime itself? Oh, how I hate hate crimes.

  • Alex
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:03 p.m.

    Eliot:

    "Same-Sex marriage does not offend me or threaten my personal values, so I am ONE Mormon who will not judge you, I don't care who you love, all I care is that you do love. I wish I could say the same about many of our LDS brothers and sisters. "

    Pardon us for not being as broad-minded as thou. Honestly, I think you are being a little naive about the effect a fundamental change in definition of marriage can make in the long run.

  • To Anonymous | 2:49 p.m.
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:22 p.m.

    I've never know anyone that is deceiptful.

    Also, I doubt CSTN is Mormon, Mormon's typically don't use Billy Graham as a reference.

  • Bad Behavior
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:30 p.m.

    Homosexuality is a behavior driven lifestyle; nothing more, nothing less. Yes, there may be physiological factors that influence the behavior, but that doesn't mean it's still not a behavior. And that is the great lie: "You're trampling my rights by not letting me behave this way!" Wow! What if I wanted to run around hitting people with a tire iron? Would you let me continue to do that because it's my right in a free society? What if I told you that I just had this feeling I'd been repressing for 15 years, and I just couldn't do it anymore? I had to act on who I really was. Would you allow me to do so? Even though my behavior had a negative impact on society? What about the 5 other people that I know that feel the same whay? What would you tell them? Would you take away their right to live life to it's fullest?
    When you examine homosexuality for what it really is, all of the Movements arguements seem ridiculous. It doesn't mean we shouldn't show them compassion, and certainly doesn't mean we should allow the behavior.

  • read your history
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:34 p.m.

    "Homosexuality is a Sin according to the Bible teachings. Pure and simple. The Church of Jesus Christ will not and CANNOT condone it in any way."

    I'm a gay man, and my church will marry me to another man. Even the Catholic church at worst considers me a sinner. Whether homosexuality is a sin or not, I know I will be forgiven and saved.

    You, on the other hand, are a heretic according to the official teachings of most Christian churches. Whether heretics like you will be saved is far less clear.

    If we start legislating based on what our churches consider to be sin or heresy, we will all be in big trouble. Do you really want to return to that? Have you forgotten the persecution you suffered at the hands of other Christians?

    In my religion, gay marriage is blessed. I'm willing to let you practice your religion as you see fit if you let me practice mine the way I see fit. That's not moral relativism, it's pragmatism. But if you start interfering with my life, be prepared for push-back.

  • LDS4GayMarriage.org
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:41 p.m.

    So-called Hate State | 5:41 p.m. Dec. 10, 2008 said -
    Threatening to burn down the LA Temple not a hate crime or a terroist threat? Nothing was done about it but closed gates and security....It all stated with hate crimes like these gay extremists are doing.

    LDS - Hmmm....Let's see....We had a dozen or so buildings that got "tagged".. We got a couple of baggies of harmless powder too. Big Deal.

    We took away the rights of 1 million gays in CA...and violated our scriptures in doing so.

    Which one is objectively more harmful and hurtful? Which one will harm families and kids? Which one teaches our kids that it's OK to make people 2nd class citizens if their moral outlook is different than yours?

    We LDS have a persecution complex. We circle the wagons and play the victim, even when we are the ones who sucker punched someone. We LDS need to repent of the evil we did.

    If the Church is so shocked about getting vandalized, maybe it should stay out of politics next time...or at least be on the side of promoting rights rather than erasing them.

  • Alan
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:46 p.m.

    Eliot:
    Firstly let me agree with you on one point. We should not be offended by anyone - we have every right though to be offended by what they do. Personally it offends me that children get shown two men as a married couple to five year olds in their school readers with the distinct purpose of indoctrination to make what gays do more acceptable. When a father protests that he will not allow his son to be taught that, he gets locked up because now his basic right to teach his children God's values has been taken away and the law forces him to accept those values. Reaction from the G/L community. Send your kids to private schools or home school them if you dont like it. Why should we? Take a reality check. No on 8 takes away your basic rights to teach your family what you deem to be right. Don't you understand that they don't only want their rights, they are trying to take away yours - capiche.

  • LDS4GayMarriage.org
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:49 p.m.

    You lost, get over it | 8:26 p.m. Dec. 10, 2008 said -
    Prop 8 won. Know what democracy means?

    LDS - Hmmm anti mixed-race marriage laws also passed in the South? This is why we are a republic and not a democracy. We have a constitution to protect the rights of a helpless minority from being trashed by the majority. The CA Supreme Court say that Prop. 22 violated rights.

    It's ironic how we LDS tried to wrap ourselves in constitutional protections when we had our own unique for of marriage despite the vote of the majority...yet now, when we are powerful, we want to do unto others as was done unto us.

    Benjamin Franklin said democracy was 3 wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat for lunch. It's a great system...if you're a wolf. It stinks if you are the sheep. We were the sheep 120 years ago. Now we are the wolves. That's hardly in keeping with D&C 101:76-80.

  • basement writer
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:51 p.m.

    Ummm, let me see, the Prop 8 people haven't demonstrated gay rights offices or homes, they haven't circulated a list of Prop 8 opponents to intimidate them, they haven't demonstrated (with violent threats) at any gay churches, haven't sent any powder anywhere, haven't spray painted walls or buildings with "vandals aren't born" , haven't, haven't....

    Prop 8 proponents phoned people to remind them to vote. There were ads clarifying their position. They held up signs on highways telling them to vote yes (a citizen's right, according to voting laws) and they circulated information.

    Do you see ANY difference in behavior of Prop 8 proponents and opponents?

  • LDS4GayMarriage.org
    Dec. 11, 2008 5:54 p.m.

    Kitchy | 1:10 a.m. Dec. 11, 2008 said -
    It is not hate when we are only trying to do what the Bible says....Why is so difficult to accept that we are only following our consciences?

    LDS - Well, D&C134:4 condemns doing that if our doing so infringes upon the rights and liberties of others. Gays DID have the right in CA and we used our religious opinions as justification to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:02 p.m.

    "Christians burned, hung, and murdered hundreds of innocent people during the Salem Witch Trials and they swore it to their religious beliefs..."

    And until Constantine came a long with the Edict of Milan, Christians were burned, hung, and murdered. 112 A.D. Emperor Trajan questioned people, asking if they were Christian. If they denied being Christian, they had to prove it by cursing the name of Christ. If they said they were Christian, they were warned and had two more chances to change their mind, if they didn't they were led away to be tortured and/or killed. They were used as torches, stoned to death, ripped apart by angry mobs, etc.

    GET OVER IT! You're not the only people in the world who've been discriminated against, and I'll admit that Pro Prop. 8 people have done bad things, but it goes both ways.

    The bottom line is that just because people voted in a way different from they way you did doesn't mean you're being discriminated against, it means you lost and it's time to move on.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:08 p.m.

    As religion is the SOURCE of oppression, it does not deserve to be kept "free". The freedom to deceive and tyrannize is not freedom.

    Wow, I can't even believe this was said. Absolutely the most ignorant thing I've read in any of these stupid comment boards. Guess what, you freaking liberal, people came to America from Europe FOR religious freedom, among other things, but freedom of religion is one of the huge reasons. People are trying to tear apart the way our country was set up, and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. You don't want religious freedom? PLEASE do America a favor and move to North Korea.

  • Deberah
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:25 p.m.

    I am not religious. There is more evil in religion then their is in anything else. Too many hypocrites in religion and those sort of people have run me off. I feel good just believing in God and not being apart of any religious sick religious society.

  • ignorance doesn't work
    Dec. 11, 2008 6:26 p.m.

    "Personally it offends me that children get shown two men as a married couple to five year olds in their school readers with the distinct purpose of indoctrination to make what gays do more acceptable."

    Mormons seem to live under the assumption that if you simply keep knowledge of homosexuality from your children, they won't turn out gay. But it doesn't work that way. You can't turn a gay kid straight by pretending homosexuality doesn't exist, and you can't turn a straight kid gay by showing them pictures of male couples.

    The only thing that you accomplish by keeping your children in ignorance about these facts is that the ones that actually are gay will have a miserable growing up. I know because I have a number of gay ex-Mormon friends.

    Furthermore, you neither have a legal right nor a moral right to keep knowledge you don't like from your children. Keeping your children in ignorance is child abuse. Your children need to learn about sex, evolution, and homosexuality, just like my children need to learn about Mormonism and fundamentalism. We can express our disapproval, but we can't keep them in ignorance.

  • Re: ignorance doesn't work
    Dec. 11, 2008 8:44 p.m.

    You are right in saying that merely keeping the knowledge of homosexuality from children will prevent them from being gay. However when you say that they need to learn about homosexuality just like your children need to learn about Mormonism, you are wrong. There is not a law being passed that would make it mandatory and legal to teach Mormonism is true in school. The part that offends people is that they are told they HAVE to accept something they don't agree with and their children HAVE to be taught that it is ok, when they do not agree with it. If your children had to be taught that something was ok when you fundamentally opposed it, you would not be happy either.

  • Lynn
    Dec. 11, 2008 9:56 p.m.

    Well, I got curious, and found an interesting web site. After reading many of the articles on the web site, I think I owe an apology to LDS4GayMarriage.org. I jumped to conclusions too quickly, and judged wrongly. I'm sorry.

    I see where you are coming from, and I can see the logic of what you are saying. Yet, I don't agree with everything you are posting here. Your accusing LDS of having a persecution complex, trivializes the feelings of those who were there when chapels and temples were vandalized. I'm a long way from CA, but, when I saw the news reports and the videos on You Tube and elsewhere, I cried. Also, those 2 bags of white powder, though found to be harmless, were nevertheless, a threat. Since then, there are reports that government offices in 14 states have received envelopes of white powder. Who knows when those hoaxes might become real, and innocent people become victims of some deadly biological or chemical weapon?

    The LDS did nothing to deserve this. All they did was vote, and some of the gays were enraged by the results. Those who acted out their anger this way, should be prosecuted.

  • Common Sense for Bobd
    Dec. 11, 2008 10:57 p.m.

    It was stated by Bobd (and I'm paraphrasing here) that marriage magically becomes a right when gays don't get those gargantuan amount of special privileges that married people get without spending a whole lot more money. At least you acknowledge that with the right amount of money they too may obtain said privileges, but I digress.
    Did it not occur to you that maybe, just maybe the government wants to encourage men and women to marry due to the potential societal benefits that that type of union will provide? If you take 10 married couples and 10 gay couples and put them on separate islands, leave them there for 200 years, which island do you think has the best chance for survival? I know, simplistic example, but it helps to illustrate why marriage might be important to the government. Marriage was NOT invented by the government, but the government at some point decided it was beneficial to encourage it. This is why married people (at least on the federal level) have a huge number of granted privileges that gay and straight, single individuals who happen to live together do not have. Any questions?

  • what are you saying?
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:08 p.m.

    "they need to learn about homosexuality just like your children need to learn about Mormonism, you are wrong. There is not a law being passed that would make it mandatory and legal to teach Mormonism"

    Mormons and their beliefs are a significant part of American history and society Of course, kids learn about that in school. Homosexuals have also been an important part of US history and society, and of course, kids should receive accurate and factual information about it as well. How could you possibly not want that?

    I mean, are you proposing that we only teach about things in school that you morally approve of? Are you suggesting that we don't teach about Hitler, Catholicism, or the British Empire because you disapprove of those?

    You're free to insist on having factually inaccurate statements about homosexuality, Christianity, or Mormonism in school removed and corrected. But gay men and women are a part of society, just like Mormons, and kids need to understand that.

  • To lds4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:16 p.m.

    Your argument falls apart when you try to state that marriage is a right. It is NOT a right. A court of extremist Judges overturned the will of the people and, in a very unconstitutional way, created law from the bench that gave the privilege of marriage to homosexuals. Prop 8 simply clarifies to the government what the definition of marriage is. Lets be clear. Marriage was not defined by the government. The government, through the will of the people, chose to create special privileges given through license to those men and women who choose to marry. These special privileges are granted due to the inherent societal benefits that this type of union provides to the government. To put it simply, it's a win-win situation. If we, as a society, continue to give ground to those who make personal choices that are not beneficial to society, society will cease to exist. Plain and simple.

  • To what are you saying?
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:29 p.m.

    What we are saying is that we as parents do not believe that a school should be permitted to teach our children that choosing to live the homosexual lifestyle is normal and good. We are not saying that our kids should not know that homosexuals exist and we are not saying that our children should hate them for there bad choices or in any way view them in a bad light as a human being. We are saying that it is our right, as parents, to have a choice as to when and where our kids are taught this information. After all, who knows there child better than a parent?

  • To Deborah
    Dec. 11, 2008 11:33 p.m.

    Hate to break the news to you, but if you believe in god you are by definition, religious. Hope it doesn't take you too long to come to terms with that fact.

  • Ing
    Dec. 12, 2008 12:14 a.m.

    "Culture warriors"! Ha! The pot calling the kettle black. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wars usually have two sides. If the Becket Fund ad was the product of cultural warriors, then so is this one.

    I have to say that in my experience, the people who talk the loudest about tolerance and acceptance usually show it the least. Same goes for people who throw tantrums about their rights: usually it's their "right" to get away with something, step on somebody else, or force everyone to agree with them. There have been a few voices of wisdom and moderation when it comes to this particular issue, but not many. Not nearly enough.

    The "press release" on the Truth Wins Out website made me laugh; it's nothing but a pitiful attempt to inoculate the news media with their point of view. I'm sick and tired of BOTH sides in this misbegotten fracas, but mostly tired of the gay rights activists. It looks like some of them will do just about any mean thing to get what they want.

  • responsible parents
    Dec. 12, 2008 12:47 a.m.

    "We are saying that it is our right, as parents, to have a choice as to when and where our kids are taught this information."

    Many gay teenagers come from conservative Christian homes. They didn't choose to be gay. They didn't get recruited. They have no idea what's happening to them. Everybody around them tells them that they are bad. They have no idea that they can lead a happy, productive life. Their misery is caused by people like you, people who withhold information from them. Some of them commit suicide. Others enter loveless marriages and are miserable. Many eventually figure it out, move out to the coast, and try to put their lives back together.

    No, you do not have an absolute right to choose to withhold information from your children. No, you do not have the right to teach your children that homosexuality "is" bad as if everybody agreed on that. You do not have the right to hurt them or coerce them into a religion or withhold medical treatment because of your faith. Your children are not your personal property, they are human beings with free will and rights, they just happen to be immature.

  • To responsible parents
    Dec. 12, 2008 1:48 a.m.

    Wow...look at you....liberal marxism at its best. Refresh my memory? How did that turn out for the Russian people?

    You can preach to me your values until your blue in the face. The difference between you and me is that I have the law on my side. And, trust me, I will fight with all that I have to make sure that that law is never changed so that people like you never obtain the right to tell me how to raise my kids. Oh, and you unwittingly hit the proverbial nail on the head when you said "...they just happen to be immature." That is precisely why it should be up to the parent to choose the time and place to teach their children. Parents know best when they are mature enough to handle it. I suppose you would disagree with that statement and would rather prefer for the government to decide on a one size fits all template.


  • Alan
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:43 a.m.

    The simple truth is that men and women are wired differently for a purpose. Just like two male connectors or 2 female connectors in plumbing and electricity dont fit and therefore dont work, the same applies to people. Simple logic tells me that regardless of the Bible. You exist because of it. It is the most natural thing, the most beautiful thing and it feels right when done in the bounds of marriage because of loyalty and commitment when done righteously. Even good things are bad when bad people do them so forget that argument. Marriage provides a safe haven where children learn and develop by observing male and female interaction and learn from both. Many gay people became that way because a father figure was non-existant in disfunctional families. There are psychologists that are helping gay people to become straight as I write. They have a huge success rate. The psychologist I know who does this was gay and now has a family of 4 kids and very happily married too. It's not a curse you are born with. U can change if you want to.

  • Sarah Nichole
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:50 a.m.

    To those wondering if the leaders of the LDS church knew who they were thanking, of course they knew. They know who their critics are. But, I'd submit that they felt it didn't matter.

    When W.W. Phelps was excommunicated, he told some stories that lead to a great deal of trouble for Joseph Smith and the early members of the church. But when he wrote a letter to Smith explaining that he had repented and wished to come back to the church, Joseph wrote:

    "It is true that we have suffered much in consequence of your behavior. The cup of gall, already full enough for mortals to drink, was indeed tilled to overflowing, when you turned against us. However... believing your confession to be real, and your repentance genuine, I shall be happy once again, to give you the right hand of fellowship, and rejoice over the returning prodigal.

    'Come on, dear brother, since the war is past;
    For friends at first, are friends again at last.'

    One of the main tenets of our religion is to forgive, whether we have received an apology or not. Our leaders forgave those criticizing them, and thanked them for their support in this.

  • Bobd
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:29 a.m.

    Re: Commonsense for Bobd
    I encourage some classes in reading comprehension. I stated that some...SOME...of the benefits can be bought at a much higher price, most cannot be obtained at any cost under the new law. Even with a civil union the relationship is considered separate and unequal.

    lds4marriage - I really appreciate your commentary. I have a very easy tendency to move out in the weeds of the argument and begin discussing semantics rather than the basic nature of this debate. Your rational approach and calm demeanor are something I have a long way to go to reach. I have greatly appreciated your website along with the other mormonsformarriage over the past few days since finding them.

  • To OH boy
    Dec. 12, 2008 8:13 a.m.

    Thank you for your words of sanity showing that one can be pro-gay, even homosexual, and not support the assault and battery of a person even if their personal views inhibit your own rights. The tides change and the minority view could be the shoe on your own foot which is all I attempted to write. It is good to see reason over acceptance of violent retort. I would hope if my views fall out of favor that someone like you would have my back.

    David

    I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.
    Voltaire

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:25 a.m.

    To Deborah | 11:33 p.m. Dec. 11, 2008
    "Hate to break the news to you, but if you believe in god you are by definition, religious. Hope it doesn't take you too long to come to terms with that fact."


    Do you know the difference between "religious" and "spiritual"?

    Religious people believe in a religion.

    Spiritual people believe in spiritual things.

    You can be spiritual without being religious.

    You can be religious and not be spiritual.

    Or you can be both spiritual and religious.

  • To Alan
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:32 a.m.

    "There are psychologists that are helping gay people to become straight as I write. They have a huge success rate. The psychologist I know who does this was gay and now has a family of 4 kids and very happily married too. It's not a curse you are born with. U can change if you want to."


    To quote someone who worked at BYU when they were trying to change gays:

    "As a student volunteer, I worked in the BYU Psychology Department/Clinic-sponsored research studies and I can assure you that these electric-shock therapy experiments to try to cure homosexuality DID HAPPEN! I was a volunteer helping out with no less than 3 separate studies, each examining aspects of homosexuality, its origins, and its modifiability. The results of these studies were communicated to Salt Lake and the Brethren, and it is because the results indicated that homosexuality may be inborn and is extremely resistant to the most powerful forms of electro- and chemical- therapies that the Brethren have taken the official stand they have taken. Officially, same sex attraction is NOT a sin! Only homosexual behavior is considered sinful in the Church."

  • To Anonymous
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:41 a.m.

    Try looking up the definition next time before you start preaching. Lets try Webster for example:

    Religious - Relating to or manifesting faithful devotion to an acknowledged ultimate reality or deity.

    Believing in a specific religion is not a requirement to be religious. Religion is simply the organization of those who are already religious.

  • To Bobd
    Dec. 12, 2008 11:14 a.m.

    Thanks for making my point when you say "Even with a civil union the relationship is considered separate and unequal." Maybe next time if your going to respond and you have a different position you should try refuting it. the unequal part is by design as there would be no special incentive for marriage if a civil union was equal. The government creates special privileges of all kinds given to certain groups of people where it sees a benefit to itself and society by providing those privileges.
    I agree there are certain privileges that should be given to unmarried individuals who choose to live together. I disagree that they should be exactly the same and on the same level as marriage. If you take away the incentive your defeating the sole purpose of the government getting into the marriage business to begin with.

  • Ing
    Dec. 12, 2008 12:30 p.m.

    "Even with a civil union the relationship is considered separate and unequal."

    That's because it is NOT...THE...SAME.

    I didn't want to get into this here, but I'm going to anyway, because it really bothers me how marriage is being claimed as a universal human right. I have some gay friends who might disagree with me, but I think there are sound, logical, compelling reasons why gay marriage isn't actually a right.

    Marriage has everything to do with sexual orientation. It is part of human biology--reproduction and the human need for companionship and capacity for love--and biologically and socially speaking, gender matters. Show me one society anywhere that has ever had homosexual marriage--bet you there aren't any. Marriage in human society is restricted to male/female unions because it is a social institution with a biological mandate.

    Same-sex couples deserve equal protection under the law and should be able to take legal responsibility for one another (i.e., civil unions). But marriage, as such, is NOT a universal right and isn't just about two people loving each other. Homosexual love exists and is legitimate, but it makes no sense to divorce society from biology. Everyone is not the same in everything.

  • whacky
    Dec. 12, 2008 1:10 p.m.

    What have you people been smoking out there in Utah? "They target us then whine" you took away their right to marry I think you opened fire first, deal with it. Bad Behaviors please get a life this silly old argument is more worn out then the tread on my tires. I could just as easily argue that religion is a choice just like shooting someone so should we allow people to shot people. Seriously way too much prescription drug abuse in Utah it is really starting to affect your brains.

  • to Ing
    Dec. 12, 2008 1:21 p.m.

    "Show me one society anywhere that has ever had homosexual marriage--bet you there aren't any."

    Ancient Rome had gay marriage. It was outlawed by Constantine.

    And before you go stating that it must have caused the fall of Rome, look up Brigham Young's, John Taylor, and Parley P Pratt's statements of what really brought down Rome - MONOGAMY!

  • There are many people
    Dec. 12, 2008 1:24 p.m.

    now that don't consider the Bible as the last word to human kind. (And many who never did). There are a number of religions now that don't believe in homosexuality as a "sin". Also, there are now many leaving their religions to find something that embraces real life situations. So go ahead and believe as you choose (you have every right) but don't put your beliefs on others. And by the way you are wrong when you say that homosexuality is only a "behavior". Many will tell you it is who they are and that they can't be any other way. There are certain number that can "change" or pretend, but those people are not in the majority. Just like there are many varuiys degrees of genetic traits in the world, these people would only be partially homosexual. And this does not make them any better or worse than others.

  • Frank
    Dec. 12, 2008 1:38 p.m.

    We should just end this, strip everything of gender, race, and color. Make everything equal and not seperate by eliminating gender terms from our language, racial terms, and confuse the color system.

    That would make it sooooooo much easier to hate each other based on our beliefs and income bracket.

  • CSTN
    Dec. 12, 2008 1:57 p.m.

    LNG: Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you. I couldn't have said it better myself. Unfortunately half of the people in our society just don't get the fact that we wouldn't have a society if there weren't male/female marriages.

  • Billy
    Dec. 12, 2008 2:15 p.m.

    CSTN - I must have missed the point in this discussion where it became apparent that allowing 1% of the population to get married in homosexual relationships was going to somehow eliminate heterosexual ones. Can you help me out with this?

  • Billy
    Dec. 12, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    Ing,
    You must be trapped in a vacuum. There are many societies at present that allow homosexual marriage; our canadian siblings to the North being one of them.

  • To CSTN
    Dec. 12, 2008 2:19 p.m.

    CSTN | 1:57 p.m. Dec. 12, 2008
    "LNG: Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you Thanks you. I couldn't have said it better myself. Unfortunately half of the people in our society just don't get the fact that we wouldn't have a society if there weren't male/female marriages."


    NO ONE wants to take away heterosexual marriages!
    Where did you get that idea? You can add rights for other people without changing or taking away the rights from those who had them all along. When women were finally given the right to vote, were men then excluded? No.

    Silly.

  • why don't you change?
    Dec. 12, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    "It's not a curse you are born with. U can change if you want to."

    You have no idea what you're talking about. Sexuality is a range, from strict heterosexuality to bisexuality to strict homosexuality. Any "successes" are people somewhere near the middle.

    But why would I want to change anyway? Homosexuality is not a sin. My church blesses my union.

    But Mormonism is a heresy; that's not my opinion, it's the official position of many Christian churches. Traditional Christians hated you so much that they chased you into the desert and murdered your leaders. We tolerate you now, but we certainly do not accept your beliefs.

    It's clear that people aren't born Mormon, they are always indoctrinated by their parents or recruited by Mormon recruiters. You can change. So, why don't you? Abandon your wicked ways and become a true Christian.

  • @2:19
    Dec. 12, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    But women didnt try to gain those rights by allowing the modification of the term "man" to include females and males.

  • closet homosexuals
    Dec. 12, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    "Unfortunately half of the people in our society just don't get the fact that we wouldn't have a society if there weren't male/female marriages."

    So, can you explain to me how gay marriage destroys straight marriage? Are many married Mormons secret homosexuals that will leave their partners to join in gay unions as soon as it's legal? To anybody who is really straight, giving homosexuals the right to marry is about as important as giving pet poodles the right to marry.

    And where do you think all those homosexuals come from anyway? Little fairy factories in San Francisco? Gay missionaries that canvas the Mormon temples? I have news for you: gay couples don't usually have kids and homosexuals don't recruit (Mormons do). The homosexual populations of New York, San Francisco, and all those other places come from traditional, often Christian families. I have many gay friends that grew up Mormon. They discover at some point that they are gay and leave places like Utah when people like you make their lives intolerable.

  • Obvious
    Dec. 12, 2008 3:47 p.m.

    re: To CSTN

    Your argument doesn't hold up because marriage is not a right. Never was and never will be. It is a special privilege backed and licensed by the government. The government endorses the idea because of the benefit to society that it provides. The government also endorses and even provides aid to poor kids who want to go to college. Poor kids going to college benefits society. Going to college isn't a right either and you don't see the rich kids complaining because they don't get a free ride too.
    This whole "rights" argument is so exhausting. No amount of justification or sob stories will ever change the facts.
    Ask yourself why the government could possibly want to give special privileges to the married? Refer to my going to college example if you can't figure it out.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:02 p.m.

    @2:19 | 3:28 p.m. Dec. 12, 2008
    But women didnt try to gain those rights by allowing the modification of the term "man" to include females and males.

    OH YES THEY DID! "We believe that all MEN are created equal." I was always told that included women too. I was also taught that many references to "man" in the bible also were to include women. Did they teach me incorrectly?

    Should we change the Declaration of Independence?


  • Anonymous
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:10 p.m.

    Heterosexual marriage. Aquatic fish. Sweet Candy. Steel metal. White Caucasian. Wet rain.

    All redundant terms.

    At least legal marriage is redundant because male/female is included in the definition. Religious marriage seems to have a more generic non-gender definition but thats regulated by the specific faith anyway.

    I hope I was transparently clear instead of confusingly puzzled.

  • To CSTN
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    " The government also endorses and even provides aid to poor kids who want to go to college. "


    In those laws that give poor kids college educations, there is reasons given for this action. Verbage stating why having these children educated would benefit society.

    Please show me where there is verbage stating that the reason we give marriage benefits to couples is to protect their children that they may have. I have looked for this at the federal and state levels and have not found anything that even resembles this. Especially since many people are allowed to marry when they cannot conceive.

    Otherwise, it is pure conjecture that this is why they are given.

  • Arthur
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:20 p.m.

    @4:02

    Lol I hadnt thought of it that way. You definitly caught me off guard there. I have to give you bonus points for thinking a little more creatively than me. But I dont think that argument would hold up too well.

    If it did:

    I'm going back to calling my postwoman the mailman, and looks like I can never be charged with sexual harrassment for anything against another "man". Hope that holds up in court unless there are two similar yet distinct definitions for the word "man" or something I'm missing. Why cant gays get married with the current laws definition anyway?? We're all men!

  • Ing
    Dec. 12, 2008 4:27 p.m.

    re: "Billy" 2:17 p.m.:
    Consider me vacuumed, then. I didn't know Canada allowed gay marriage. Come to think of it, I wouldn't be surprised to find that a few countries in Europe do, too. Still, that doesn't prove that we should do it.

    re: "to Ing" 1:21 p.m.:
    I've studied Roman history, and I've never heard about homosexual marriage as part of Roman society. I know the ancient Greeks and Romans were a lot more accepting of homosexuality than most Western cultures have ever been (and I'm not saying I know everything about ancient Rome) but I doubt they allowed full-on homosexual marriage.

    While we're at it, I'll clarify my position on a few related things:

    Homosexuality is not inherently immoral or sinful. It's natural...and biologically different from being heterosexual.

    I don't believe "immorality" caused the fall of Rome or anything else (contrary to what someone implied).

    I don't believe that gay marriage will somehow destroy straight marriage or make everyone gay.

    For the reasons I outlined earlier, I believe it should be obvious that marriage is NOT a human right that transcends gender and sexual orientation. Instead, it is biologically and socially imbricated and thus is legitimately gender-dependent.

  • OC
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:10 p.m.

    Homosexuals do recruit. One third of child molestations are done by same sex predators. Homosexuals child molest at a rate many times what heterosexuals do.

  • Obvious
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    re: To CSTN

    Conjecture? There are countless constitutional based websites that explain the benefits of marriage to society and why the government supports them. Do you have a better reason for why the government would choose to support marriage by granting married individuals special privileges?

  • Recruiters
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:13 p.m.

    One homosexual group that did recruit was NAMBLA. The North American Man Boy Love Association. Many of their members are in jail for child molestation thanks to an FBI sting operation. Gay pride organizers allowed this group into their events. They would not condemn them.

  • Schools
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:18 p.m.

    Young children can be heavily influenced by teaching. It worked in Nazi Germany and the communist Soviet Union. If homosexuality is taught in school it would have an effect on children. If it is taught as equally good you are going to have confused kids who try out the lifestyle. I guess some of you want to tell kids that smoking and taking illegal drugs are good for them also.

  • Change
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:23 p.m.

    Aversion therapy has been successful in staightening out homosexuals, but like anything you have to want to do it. Sex is learned behavior. I know several people who say they made the choice to be a lesbian or homosexual.

  • Factors
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:31 p.m.

    Many homosexuals choose the lifestyle because they were molested by other older homosexuals when they were children. This made many think they were gay. Many homosexuals had a strong mother and a weak father and related more to the female role model. Some men were hypersexual and pursued the lifestyle. San Francisco bathhouses were famous for this. Many factors influence homosexuals, but it is still a choice.

  • Protestors
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:49 p.m.

    At the first LA Temple protest by anti 8 haters KNX 1070 AM reported and interviewed 2 women who were beaten at the scene by pro same sex marriage supporters. Vandalism was done. The anti 8 haters also would not allow LDS members into or out of the front gate. They tried to intimidate other yes on 8 supporters who were there. In my city thousands of yes on 8 signs were stolen out of people's yards. As usual gay agenda types hate free speech and will do anything to squelch opposing speech.

  • read your biology and history
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:50 p.m.

    "Marriage has everything to do with sexual orientation. It is part of human biology [...] Show me one society anywhere that has ever had homosexual marriage--bet you there aren't any."

    Biologically and historically speaking, Mormon ideas about sex--lifelong monogamy, procreational sex, and the nuclear family--are bizarre and totally unnatural.

    Mormons are probably so focused on procreative sex because they are a religious minority that wants to grow. Great human civilizations just don't work that way.

  • History
    Dec. 12, 2008 5:56 p.m.

    Life long monogamy has been the historical norm. Homosexuality is totally abnormal and unnatural.

  • Follow the Prophet
    Dec. 12, 2008 6:11 p.m.

    To not really lds for gay marriage:
    President Monson asked us to work for the passage of prop 8. The living prophet takes precedence over the scriptures. Read this year's priesthood manual around page 199 where it quotes Joseph Smith and Brigham Young saying that the scriptures are nothing compared to the words of the living prophet. We had the lesson months ago. I knew you didn't go to our church. Also you have never said that homosexual behavior is wrong which is pretty basic stuff in Mormon religion. If you had a testimony you wouldn't be ripping our church or the prophet. You think you know more than the Lord. You don't!

  • Ing
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:19 p.m.

    "read your biology and history": Follow your own advice, dude.

    I'll admit I overstated my case with my "bet there aren't any" comment. It's true that lifelong monogamy, procreational sex, and the nuclear family are not necessarily universal virtues among all humanity, and not always necessary for a healthy society.

    However, lifelong monogamy HAS been the norm in Western society for at least a couple thousand years. You can't say procreational sex and large families are only Mormon ideals (Catholicism, anyone?).

    As a species, we may not be wired for lifelong monogamy (some take to it better than others, though; it's a continuum of behavior, not an absolute destiny). But we are biologically wired to gravitate toward something at least approximating a nuclear family; people naturally love their own children. Again, there's a continuum of behavior; child-rearing isn't only done by individuals, it can also be done by society collectively.

    But don't paint me with the wrong brush. Not everyone in this conversation is either a Mormon or a supporter of gay marriage. Some of us are neither. I may temporarily agree with them on parts of this issue, but I'm not a practicing Mormon (or a practicing anything).

  • LDS4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:36 p.m.

    To Bobd | 12:20 p.m. Dec. 11, 2008 said -
    ...Gays and Lesbians have every "right" that I do, and I do not have any more "rights" than they do. Just because I choose to keep the definition of "marriage" being between a man and woman, does not constitute the violation of someones "rights".

    LDS - The US Supreme Court disagrees -
    "These statutes also deprive the Lovings of liberty without due process of law in violation of the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment. The freedom to marry has long been recognized as one of the vital personal rights essential to the orderly pursuit of happiness by free men."

    "Marriage is one of the 'basic civil rights of man,' fundamental to our very existence and survival. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."

    Gays want the same rights we have...to marry the person they love.

  • Ing
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:38 p.m.

    And again, I assert that marriage is a function both of biology and society, and as such there is NO reason why we should be obligated to treat it as a "right" that is being unfairly denied to homosexuals.

    A lot of people like to pretend that biology doesn't matter when it comes to men and women, and that society shouldn't be allowed to deny anyone anything. WRONG. I'm not bringing this up to justify chauvinism and racism; we already know that stuff was wrong. I also realize that science and biology have been used to justify some reprehensible things (people once claimed blacks were biologically inferior to whites, and a few select morons still believe it).

    But the fact is, biological differences DO exist, and sometimes they're highly significant, and it's both justifiable and (probably) wise to account for them in a case like this.

  • are you kidding?
    Dec. 12, 2008 10:51 p.m.

    "However, lifelong monogamy HAS been the norm in Western society for at least a couple thousand years."

    Are you kidding? Estimates of average lifetime sex partners varies between about 5 and 20 for heterosexuals in the Western world, and those estimates are almost certainly low and rising. Marital infidelity is high, probably the norm in many nations.

    And many people seem to stop changing sex partners not because of a sudden outbreak of monogamous commitment, but for practical reasons.

    The only reason people had fewer partners in the past is because they didn't live as long.

    Incidentally, divorce rates among conservative Christians are higher than among atheists. So much for the "benefits" of conservative "values".

  • Mormons for sin & promiscuity
    Dec. 13, 2008 12:58 a.m.

    "But the fact is, biological differences DO exist, and sometimes they're highly significant, and it's both justifiable and (probably) wise to account for them in a case like this."

    Of course biology matters. So what? What does that have to do with gay marriage?

    Why do you want to prevent two men from making a loving commitment to care for each other and to be monogamous with each other? Gay marriage can only translate into less promiscuity and less sex.

    By opposing gay marriage, Mormons are promoting more sex and more promiscuity. Is that what you want?

  • Re: Follow the Prophet
    Dec. 13, 2008 5:06 a.m.

    If I ever say anything which is contrary to the scriptures, then the scriptures prevail. - Mark E. Petersen

    If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth. - Harold B. Lee

    That this Church, while offering advice for the welfare of its members in all conditions of life, does not claim or exercise a right to interfere with citizens in the free exercise of social or political rights and privileges. - Wilford Woodruff

  • Re: Follow the Prophet
    Dec. 13, 2008 5:10 a.m.

    D&C 134:4 - We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of aworship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish bguilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

    D&C 134:7 - We believe that rulers, states, and governments have a right, and are bound to enact laws for the protection of all acitizens in the free exercise of their religious bbelief; but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions, so long as a regard and reverence are shown to the laws and such religious opinions do not justify sedition nor conspiracy.

  • Re: Follow the Prophet
    Dec. 13, 2008 5:13 a.m.

    D&C 134:9 - We do not believe it just to amingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

    If I esteem mankind to be in error, shall I bear them down? No. I will lift them up, and in their own way too, if I cannot persuade them my way is better; and I will not seek to compel any man to believe as I do, only by the force of reasoning, for truth will cut its own way. - Joseph Smith

    Religious freedom does not imply nor provide license to infringe or impose upon the rights and liberties of others. - L.G. Ottem

    "Wherever one dominant church has controlled a government, or a government (as in communistic nations) has dictated or proscribed systems of worship, men have been denied that agency without which they cannot work out their salvation. - Bruce R. McConkie

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 13, 2008 8:55 a.m.

    To the 12:58 commentator,
    Same-gender marriage will lock people in a sinful relationship. The less locked into a same-sex relationship the easier to stop the bahvior it is for people. What we want is people to stop homosexual behavior, and so we want a system that makes that most likely.

  • Day late, dollar short
    Dec. 13, 2008 9:38 a.m.

    "but we do not believe that they have a right in justice to deprive citizens of this privilege, or proscribe them in their opinions"

    As a member of the church who had the church ask me to do all I could for prop 8 and didn't tell me they understood members might vote otherwise until the day after the election, I feel fairly "proscribed".

  • Hey Lambert
    Dec. 13, 2008 10:41 a.m.

    1. What would it take to stop your behavior of heterosexuality, assuming you are such? That is what you are asking of homosexuals.
    2. How easy would it be for you to stop your behavior of posting all over D.N.?
    3. How easy would it be to stop your behavior of judgment?
    4. We all have sins, so as long as stores continue to offer shrimp and I continue to partake, I will not judge someone that behaves in a homosexual manner.
    5. FYI if gender isn't clear, why would you assume that sexuality is clear? There are XY females able to reproduce despite the fact that Xy is considered male. God also made hermaphrodites (distinct from transsexuals) and gender neutral (without any sex organs.) Again gender isn't always clear so why assume that sexuality should be clear or even bad according to the Almighty? I know, see #3.

  • re: hey Lambert
    Dec. 13, 2008 10:48 a.m.

    Also interested to know how #5 relates to the Family Proclamation gender is essential statement......

  • Dear Confused
    Dec. 13, 2008 11:04 a.m.

    No rights were taken away since since you have the same rights and privledges as everyone else and actually marriage is a priviledge and not a right. No one is interfering in your religious beliefs by being against gay marriage. Mark Peterson wasn't the prophet and being against gay marriage isn't contary to the scriptures. This year's priesthood manual says follow the living prophet. Being against same sex marriage is the doctrine of the scriptures. Same sex marriage was never intended to be a right or privledge by our founders or anybody else.

  • Joseph Smith's Teachings
    Dec. 13, 2008 11:35 a.m.

    This year's priesthood manual: Brigham Young "took the stand and he took the Bible, and laid it down; he took the Book of Mormon, and laid it down; and he took the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, and laid it down before him, and he said: 'There is the written word of God to us, concerning the work of God from the beginning of the world, almost, to our day. And now,'said he,'when compared with the living oracles those books are nothing to me: those books do not convey the word of God direct to us now, as do the words of a Prophet". "I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." Joseph Smith said "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth."
    You people say you are LDS members and quote scriptutes, but you think you know more than the Prophet and God about same sex marriage. Wrong again!
    More Joseph Smith,"There have always been, in every age of the church, those who have been opposed to the principles of virtue,...followed principles of unrighteousness, and have been enemies of truth" Sound familar?

  • not gonna happen
    Dec. 13, 2008 11:37 a.m.

    "Same-gender marriage will lock people in a sinful relationship."

    The fact that people have tolerated your religion seems to have gone to your head. As far as I'm concerned, you're a heretic following a false religion, and you will suffer the consequences in the afterlife. Don't you presume to tell me what is sinful; you have no basis whatsoever to judge that.

    "The less locked into a same-sex relationship the easier to stop the bahvior it is for people."

    That is about the most ridiculous theory I have heard. When will you people understand that we have no intention of "stopping the behavior"? You are the sinner, not me. You fail to live according to the word of Christ, no me.

    "What we want is people to stop homosexual behavior, and so we want a system that makes that most likely.

    In different words, you want to create an Iran-style theocracy in America. Believe me, it is not going to happen. If you persist in trying to impose your rules on others, all you are doing is eroding the tolerance that Mormons have started to enjoy over the last century.

  • Re: Dear Confused
    Dec. 13, 2008 11:43 a.m.

    Way to ignore the rest of the quotes that convey the same thought, several of which are from the Prophet himself at the specific times, and the rest are from scripture.

  • Re: Dear Confused
    Dec. 13, 2008 11:56 a.m.

    The Mark E. Peterson quote was written by him in his book, but attributed to Joseph Fielding Smith, who was a prophet.

    I wasn't aware that the restoration was moving so quickly as to absolve such a doctrinal issue of Divine Scripture vs. Prophet Speech. So by your argument, if President Monson stated today that the Church should wage war on each and every non-member because he has recieved divine inspiration, it would outweigh every ounce of scripture that says otherwise?

    Regardless of your stance on the sinful nature of homosexuality, the scriptures and the statements of the founding prophets of our church (and many since) do validate abstaining from such acts as supporting proposition 8.

  • LDS4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 13, 2008 2:53 p.m.

    Alex | 5:03 p.m. Dec. 11, 2008 said -
    Eliot:
    "Same-Sex marriage does not offend me or threaten my personal values, so I am ONE Mormon who will not judge you, I don't care who you love, all I care is that you do love. I wish I could say the same about many of our LDS brothers and sisters. "

    Pardon us for not being as broad-minded as thou. Honestly, I think you are being a little naive about the effect a fundamental change in definition of marriage can make in the long run.

    LDS - Please tell us how your freedom will be endangered by allowing civil same-sex marriage. You may want to first Google Morris Thurston's (BYU grad and part time instructor & Harvard law grad) refututation of 'Six Consequences the Coalition Has Identified if Proposition 8 Fails' .

  • LDS4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 13, 2008 2:58 p.m.

    Bad Behavior | 5:30 p.m. Dec. 11, 2008 said -
    Homosexuality is a behavior driven lifestyle; nothing more, nothing less. Yes, there may be physiological factors that influence the behavior, but that doesn't mean it's still not a behavior. And that is the great lie: "You're trampling my rights by not letting me behave this way!" Wow! What if I wanted to run around hitting people with a tire iron?

    LDS - HAHAHAHA you gotta be kidding. We LDS told the Feds, "You're trampling my rights by not letting me behave this way!" when we had polygamy. Your tireiron example is also laughable since in it you describe physically harming others. No one is objectively harmed by gays having the right to marry. Keep your day job.

  • Disobedience
    Dec. 13, 2008 4:37 p.m.

    Nothing validates not following our current prophet in the LDS church. Many have come before you teaching false doctrine and your source has always been the same. The result will always be the same. I'll pray for you. Same sex marriage is wrong and so are you.

  • Re: Disobedience
    Dec. 13, 2008 5:15 p.m.

    You probably should reread your scriptures and your church doctrine if you truly believe that.

  • @ oc / obvious
    Dec. 13, 2008 5:46 p.m.

    again please stop with the blatant lies. non of what you said is supported by the facts you can check for yourself at the American psychological societies website and see the facts for yourself. Your lies not only give you no credibility they actually hurt people.

  • Right differences
    Dec. 13, 2008 6:26 p.m.

    Many claim that civil unions provide the all the same rights as marriage. That is not true.

    Spousal testimonial privilege and spousal confidences privilege apply only to spouses.

    Spousal testimonial privilege is based on the self-incrimination clause of the 5th Amendment. Not so long ago, married women were considered non-existent outside of their husbands - forcing a women to testify against her husband was therefore considered the same as the husband testifying against himself. The privilege against self-incrimination is the only privilege expressly protected by the Constitution.

    The spousal confidences privilege is based on the right to privacy. If, after a marriage ended, ex-spouses could be compelled to testify against the other, there would be little emotional intimacy in marriages. Indeed, the very foundation of marriage itself would be weakened.

    Spousal testimonial privilege and spousal confidences privilege are two rights that apply only to married couples - civil unions do not convey these - no legal remedy other than marriage can convey them.

    Civil unions are not equal to marriage.

  • Answer
    Dec. 13, 2008 6:29 p.m.

    The California Supreme Court determined that the California State Constitution gave gays the RIGHT to marry.

    Proposition 8 took that RIGHT away.

    Now you all know what RIGHT a straight couple has that a gay couple doesn't.
    Now you all know what RIGHT gay couples lost when Amendment 8 was passed.
    Now you all know why gay individuals are protesting about their RIGHTS.

  • Ing
    Dec. 13, 2008 7:01 p.m.

    I thought about writing a response to the latest "what does biology have to do with gay marriage" comment, but I decided not to. It's been fun arguing with you all, but I'm tired of how this thing goes around in circles. Nobody's going to convince anybody of anything here, anyway.

    All I really have to say now is that however this gay marriage thing ends up, I hope we can all agree to live and let live, whether or not we agree on anything else. I'll vote my beliefs when given the chance, and I'll be disappointed if the majority (or the judges whose job it is to interpret the Constitution) don't agree with me, but I can live with it. Whatever the outcome, it's not worth hating or attacking or threatening people over.

    Peace... I'm out. (Don't worry, you won't have a chance to miss me too much; some other hot-button article will pop up, and I won't be able to resist opening my mouth.)

  • you crossed a line
    Dec. 13, 2008 8:22 p.m.

    "I hope we can all agree to live and let live, whether or not we agree on anything else"

    That used to be the implicit agreement, but the Prop 8 proponents broke it. It's been brewing for a while, but Prop 8 has demonstrated to many people that we cannot turn a blind eye to the political activities of Mormons and similar groups anymore. I think you people are dangerous and you will stop at nothing to get political power.

    Sorry, but you people have crossed a line you shouldn't have crossed. If you want to have a public debate about values and morality, you will get it, and you are on the wrong side of the argument.

  • Who is dangerous?
    Dec. 13, 2008 10:11 p.m.

    Who crossed the line? You must be kidding because even anti prop 8 people are usually not this outragous. After the election is when you guys went beserk. Your side beat up people, intimidated people, vandalized our churches and temples, sent white powder to try and terrorize us and cried and whined like little babies. Morals and values are your weak points because you believe in no standards of behavior. Your side hates God and religion unless churches go along with your twisted ways. You guys are 0 for 30 on this issue in the only thing that counts which is the elections. You guys are dangerous. Homosexuals molest children at a rate many times what heterosexuals do.

  • One size fits all
    Dec. 13, 2008 10:56 p.m.

    "...you believe in no standards of behavior. Your side hates God and religion"

    no stereotyping here....

  • Ing
    Dec. 14, 2008 12:58 a.m.

    Whoa, Nelly!

    I step out of this conversation for TWO COMMENTS and look what happens!

    "You people are dangerous and you will stop at nothing to get political power."

    "Your side hates God and religion...You guys are dangerous..."

    Don't MAKE me step back in here, 'cause I *will* give you a time out! What are you, like 6 years old? (My dad can beat up your dad. Oh yeah, well my mom already beat up your mom! Gimme your lunch money!)

    Good grief. I can't believe I actually came back here. Nobody left that's even worth arguing with. Y'all are REALLY on your own now.

  • you likely did it yourself
    Dec. 14, 2008 1:20 a.m.

    "Your side beat up people, intimidated people, vandalized our churches and temples, sent white powder to try and terrorize us"

    It seems likely to me that Mormons have exaggerated, staged, and invented these incidents themselves (see the article).

    After all, who stands to gain from these incidents? Being able to appear as the aggrieved and threatened minority, however, scores you political points, strengthens the resolve of your followers, and deflects from the hateful and bigoted messages you have been preaching.

    This kind of behavior is entirely in character for organizations like yours and consistent with your history and methods.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 14, 2008 1:34 a.m.

    "Who crossed the line? You must be kidding because"

    I'm not debating this with you, I am simply informing you. I'm telling you this because we really have bigger problems as a nation than to fight over issues of whose morality is right. But if you persist, we will have a political fight and you will lose because our cause is just and yours is not.

    And in the process, people will learn about your beliefs, your organization, and your history, and most Americans will be appalled.

  • To "Who is Dangerous"
    Dec. 14, 2008 9:50 a.m.

    "Homosexuals molest children at a rate many times what heterosexuals do."

    You better check your facts - your bias and lack of knowledge is showing.

  • LDS4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 14, 2008 10:21 a.m.

    @2:19 | 3:28 p.m. Dec. 12, 2008 wrote -
    But women didnt try to gain those rights by allowing the modification of the term "man" to include females and males.

    All that was changed was the word "voter". The word became more broad and inclusive and allowed more people access to it. Was democracy strengthened or weakened by giving the vote to women and Blacks? It was strengthened as will the institution of marriage by making it more inclusive.

  • People abuse children
    Dec. 14, 2008 2:04 p.m.

    (Both Heterosexual and Homosexuals) more than reported. Get your facts! Abuse is a different issue than the issue at hand.

  • LDS4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 14, 2008 3:42 p.m.

    Joseph Smith's Teachings | 11:35 a.m. Dec. 13, 2008 said -
    "I would rather have the living oracles than all the writing in the books." Joseph Smith said "Brother Brigham has told you the word of the Lord, and he has told you the truth."

    LDS - This is true when the prophet receives instructions from the Lord (D&C 1:30,21:4). When the prophet contradicts scripture, we are instructed to ignore his words.

    JST - You people say you are LDS members and quote scriptutes, but you think you know more than the Prophet and God about same sex marriage. Wrong again!

    LDS - We know it is sin. We also know that preventing it by the force of law was Satan's Plan. Why are so many LDS renouncing their vote in the Pre-Existence?

    JST - More Joseph Smith,"There have always been, in every age of the church, those who have been opposed to the principles of virtue,...followed principles of unrighteousness, and have been enemies of truth" Sound familar?

    LDS - Show us where we have misinterpreted scripture or misquoted the prophets. until you do, our position is rock solid. Good Luck.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 14, 2008 3:47 p.m.

    Disobedience | 4:37 p.m. Dec. 13, 2008 said -
    Nothing validates not following our current prophet in the LDS church. Many have come before you teaching false doctrine and your source has always been the same.

    LDS - Well, since the scriptures and prophetic statements I posted back our position, the ball is now in your court to show how we misquoted those sayings or misinterpreted scripture, otherwise our position stands. Good luck...you're gonna need it. Thank you for your sincere prayers though.

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 14, 2008 9:35 p.m.

    The Proclamation on the Family was issued in 1995 and clearly states our position on marriage between and man and a woman. This was many years before homosexual marriage became an issue. The Church as also recently issued a proclamation on the Living Christ. Be prepared.

  • And get your facts
    Dec. 15, 2008 6:51 a.m.

    Many people are not going to support your church (or many religions). So you will have your stand, but not much growth....(maybe in third world countires), but not much in the U.S. and other areas that are becoming secular.

  • Agnostic
    Dec. 15, 2008 8:02 a.m.

    Gay marriage doesn't dilute single/specific marriages, but does dilute the term marriage. How many times does that obvious fact need to be repeated so that you understand? Gay marriage will guarantee competition for surrogates and adoption despite the fact that children in heterosexual marriages are in superior environments even if the gay marriage environment is acceptable. Odd, in Belgium, they use the word gay marriage but don't allow for adoption even if one in the couple is biological parent. It seems that secular society sees the future results.

    My issue remains with the specific high risk behavior. That risk is great enough that it is one of the primary exclusion questions for blood donation. We are being politically correct to the detriment of the survival of the species ignoring that HIV/AIDS is a primarily gay disease. The two other high risk factors include drug use and prostitution. Should we also validate those additional issues, oh wait we can't since those groups don't have money to lobby.

    "Survival of the Species" the reason validating interracial couples from the landmark Loving V. Virginia case.

  • Hmmm Did you know
    Dec. 15, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    That aids/HIV is primarily a women's and children's disease in Africa? It started to spread elsewhere too (yes, to the homosexual community here), but it is not a disease brought on us from this activity. We have to deal with it too. This disease has been used as an excuse to discriminate for too long.
    And survival of the species? Goodness do you know we have six billion and counting people in the world. We haven't been able to take care of them all! Let's concentrate on the people we have!

  • Anonymous
    Dec. 15, 2008 10:03 a.m.

    "My issue remains with the specific high risk behavior."

    The HIV epidemic is not due to homosexuality, it is due to promiscuity and anonymity. A closeted homosexual Mormon who has anonymous sex at highway rest stops or with prostitutes is a bigger threat to public health and his family than a gay couple in San Francisco.

    Therefore, if you are concerned with containing the HIV epidemic, you should support gay marriage: gay marriage reduces promiscuity and hence is a good thing.

    If you think that by prohibiting gay marriage you reduce homosexuality, you really are completely out of touch with reality.

  • God's vote
    Dec. 15, 2008 10:16 a.m.

    I'm curious, are there any gays out there that believe that God supports "same-sex marriage"?

  • re: "lds4gaymarriage....."
    Dec. 15, 2008 10:17 a.m.

    I will try and give the same kind of advice that I gave good old bobbyd, but in a way that maybe both of you can try and understand.

    You need to do all that you can and NOT put your trust in the "arm of the flesh", instead, try putting your trust in the "arm of the Lord". After reading the many and I do mean many responses you have so gladly given each and every poster here, it appears that you have put all your trust in the arm of flesh, i.e. the Supreme Court and such other liberal and worldly institutions. Yet you appear to have no trust in the arm of the Lord, forgetting the basic fundamentals and essentials of why we are even here and where we come from. A family, a heavenly family, with a father and a mother, plain and simple. The family is basic unit, in heaven and on earth, the family with a father and a mother and children, PERIOD!

    Try as you may to rationalize and justify anything other than this, and you are only lying and misleading yourself and jeopardizing your eternal goals, which i hope you have.

  • re: "lds4gaymarriage....." cont.
    Dec. 15, 2008 10:30 a.m.

    And wishing to continue where I left off....... It really comes down to a few things, being in the world yet not of the world and following the example of Joseph Smith in following the admonition found in the book of James. And if you will ask with real intent, nothing wavering, HE will manifest the truth of these things. But if you waver, you are like the the waves of the sea, tossed to and fro.

    In other words, you can continue to be of the world, and relying on the arm of flesh, or of man, and keep rationalizing and justifying these things to yourself and pushing them on others. Or choose to rely on the arm of the Lord, and if you will ask the Lord if things are not true, asking will REAL INTENT, He will manifest the truth of these thing unto you. That is as simple as it can be put, and I wish you luck in your search for real happiness, not worldly happiness which last for a short time.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 15, 2008 11:47 a.m.

    I would urge anyone who wonders where Jesus himself stood on the issue of marriage to read Matthew 19, especially verses 4-6. He clearly endorses one form of marriage, the union of a man and a woman. It is not possible to claim that he was accepting or affirming same-gender marriage in this passage.
    The person who claims that the stand of President Monson and his counselors is out of line with the scriptures also seems to ignore the passage in Doctrine and Covenants where it says that a man must "cleave unto his wife and none else". Cleaving unto another man which is implicit in same-gender marriage is clearly forbidden.

  • LDS4gaymarriage.org
    Dec. 15, 2008 2:53 p.m.

    Agnostic | 8:02 a.m. Dec. 15, 2008 said -
    Odd, in Belgium, they use the word gay marriage but don't allow for adoption even if one in the couple is biological parent. It seems that secular society sees the future results.

    LDS - Oh, so it's OK for the kid to be raised for 20 years in a Same-Sex home but it would harm the kid if the parents were married? HUH?

  • Gays/God/Govt
    Dec. 15, 2008 5:57 p.m.

    "I'm curious, are there any gays out there that believe that God supports "same-sex marriage"?"

    There are a lot of people (gays, not gays) that do not believe in a god or your God. It then is a moot point of what your God believes when it comes to their vision of what government should do.

    There are many gays who believe it God. Maybe not your version of God.

  • Roger
    Dec. 15, 2008 6:50 p.m.

    To JPL,

    John, everytime you spout scriptural back-up references to say that a marriage is ordained of God and is between a man and a woman, do you also, by the same standard, throw the same line to your Catholic buddies?

    By the way, doesn't Mormon theology teach that "whoso forbiddeth to marry is not ordained of me" (i.e. celibacy in the Catholic priesthood?)

    just curious? --- if you want to be fair to all parties concerned?

  • Roger
    Dec. 15, 2008 7:01 p.m.


    To Agnostic | 8:02 a.m.

    How do you feel about the following demeaning marriage?

    * divorce
    * marriages of convenience
    * multiple marriages --- over and over, divorce after marriage, after divorce, etc.

    and many other types of marriages, too many to mention, all legal mind you --- and we don't make those illegal ---

  • Roger
    Dec. 15, 2008 7:06 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert | 8:55 a.m

    Is this what this is all about, John, trying to stop the tide of homosexuality? --- never mind the legal aspect?

    Homosexuality is --- ahem, legal.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Dec. 15, 2008 7:28 p.m.

    To Roger,
    If we were debating a law that would outlaw certain or all people from getting married you statement might make sense. However, if theCatholic Church wants clerical celibacy they can have it, and as long as they do not try to force it on the rest of us, than it is not a political issue.
    However, if your reference is specifically to Matthew 19 than you clearly need to study the relationship of the Catholic church and divorce and the role Matthew 19 played in this.

  • Roger
    Dec. 16, 2008 6:33 p.m.

    To John Pack Lambert | 7:28 p.m. Dec. 15, 2008

    That is the point, John, gays are not trying to force it on you.

    I don't know where you got the idea that gays were trying to force "gay marriage" on anybody.

    They want gay marriage to themselves.

  • THE END
    Dec. 20, 2008 5:49 p.m.

    same-sex marriage is a sin.
    that is the whole issue.

  • Civil Rights
    Dec. 25, 2008 7:52 p.m.

    Gay rights are not civil rights. Too many anti-8 people are crying "Violation of civil rights", but The Civil Rights Act of 1964: Title VII Section 703 (a) states that it is unlawful to discriminate any individual based on: Race, Color, National Origin, Religion, or Gender.

    Sexual preference/orientation is not a civil right as defined by the Civil Rights act of 1964. Just to set the record straight.

    Their are equal employment rights, in which sexual preference is mentioned, but it is not a civil right.

    That having been said, the LDS church didn't break any laws by supporting Proposition 8. It asked people to vote, they got out the vote, and supported a cause legally and with class. I wish I could say the same thing of the "No on 8" side. Vandalizing churches, protests in front of mormon temples, hazing people trying to get to church, etc. A lot of that is illegal, and definitely classless.

    Anyone looking for a classy and legal side to join in this argument can clearly see which side has taken the higher road.

    Yes on 8.