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Utah

Hundreds take to S.L. streets to protest, support Prop. 8 ban on gay marriage

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  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:03 p.m.

    I'd like to see the gay community in California gather enough signatures to put their own proposition on the ballot--perhaps something that invalidates weddings conducted in mormon temples. Will it pass? Of course not, but it's only fair that the other side's rights should be subject to a vote as well.

    I wonder if mormons would act with serene civility if that were to happen...

  • Richard G.
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:04 p.m.

    The Mormon church has stepped waaaaayyy over the line by actively spurring its members to convert religious belief into civil law.

    Yes, Mormons have the right to vote and express their opinion, but that doesn't mean what they do with that right is the right thing. In this case, they have abused their rights to strip fellow human beings of human rights.

    In my book, that is a hate crime.

    The Mormon church will reap what it has sowed, namely, hatred.



  • Pitiful
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:09 p.m.

    Can't win in the ballot box, then go to the streets claiming the other side is discriminatory. Pretty sad. Go ahead and protest and you'll see the sleeping giant of conservatism arise. Yes, liberals carry the day currently in the House, Senate and White House, but guaranteed if a true conservative comes forward in 2012, with the past 4 years having ridiculous lawsuits against constitutionally passed ammendments, or if courts continue to rule without legislation (see Connecticut), the sleeping giant of conservatism will arise to claim power once again. Nothing upsets the populace more than courts overturning legislation, and petty protests denying freedom of speech for those who disagree with you. The only ones spewing hatred right now are the protestors in favor of gay marriage against religion. Nothing in the Mormon or Catholic stance tolerated hatred for the other side, contrary to those protesting them now.

  • Henry Drummond
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:11 p.m.

    It appears that the Church's prominent role in defeating marriage rights for homosexuals is backfiring. I don't think I have ever seen the Gay Rights movement more united and the Church has set itself up as the uniting force.

    In the end the Mormons will cause everything they have been trying to avoid. They have sown the wind, and are reaping the whirlwind.

  • Calm Down
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:12 p.m.

    If pro-gay marriage supporters truly feel their cause is just and reasonable, they should stop the protests and create a proposition to support their position. Then spend the next year or two defending and promoting the position. Let the people vote again. This was not the last election where such decisions can be made. Let the democratic process function. Mob rule is not the answer.

  • nostradomis
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:19 p.m.

    Gettysburg Address:.....government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth. Democracy itself defined by President Lincoln, democracy in California has spoken Prop 8, deal with it.

  • porky
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:20 p.m.

    Unless these marchers also take their cause up to the Cathedral of the Madeline, then they too are just as bigoted as they claim LDS are.

    too bad they don't realize their attacks on Utah is hurting their cause more than helping it.

  • ANNOYING!
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    This really has gotten past the point of ANNOYING!

    Not only are you closing major streets down, but the commuter's on these streets are ANNOYED with all of you! (even those who voted no on 8), AND the fact that this is "after-the-fact."

    The voice of the people spoke LOUD AND CLEAR in ALL 3 STATES! Give it a rest. Mask's are off and everyone really see's who you are. And it's not pretty. It's ANNOYING! Just like it would be if I were to stand outside the front of the white house with my McCain sign throwing a 3-year old temper tantrum, because Obama is now the president.
    A N N O Y I N G!

  • New Yorker
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:21 p.m.

    They are right. A sleeping giant is being awakened. That is the 98% heterosexual community. We are seeing what bigots some of these glbt really are. Keep pushing and you'll get much more than you want. Be happy with civil unions and continue to play house. Fortunately, reproduction will continue to keep your numbers at 2%. You have ruined the word gay and the sign of the rainbow. There was all of 75 protesters here in NYC out of 8 million people. Now that is gigantic!

  • john
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:25 p.m.

    Let the gays get married and be miserable like the rest of us.

  • Yay!
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:25 p.m.

    Go gays! Gay marriage will be a reality. If not today then tomorrow or in 10 years!

  • Snippy
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:30 p.m.

    Dont H8 democracy.

  • Democracy
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:33 p.m.

    Sandra Rodrigues, like many Americans do not understand our government. Many people argue the point that the state Supreme Court should have listened to the "will of the people" when it made its decision allowing gay marriage to be legal.

    One thing this proves is that much of the citizenry is ill informed about the purpose of the judicial system. One of the reasons it was made a separate branch was to specifically insulate it from the whims of the electorate. It is not, and never has been, the job of justices to base their decisions upon what a majority of the people want. It is their job to protect the minority from the will of the majority when the majority favors abrogating the constitutional rights of the minority.

    Everyone is free to disagree with the arguments that their decisions are based upon - but, please don't try to make the point that they should be paying attention to how the people vote on an issue.

  • B. Heath
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:33 p.m.

    It's so ironic that this Rodriguez woman would ask that people respect democracy and the will of the voters. Are civil rights subject to the whim of the voting public? Could this same public theoretically vote to take away rights from other groups, reinstate segregation and slavery? NO! Civil rights do not exist at the pleasure of a voting majority. They are inherent to all people and immune to prejudice and ignorance. I don't think a lot of people understand what it means to have your very identity brought before the public as a ballot proposition, how insulting and dehumanizing it is to be publicly legislated against as a person. These same people will sit and wonder why we are lashing out in frustration and sadness at being relegated to a second class status. All I can say is, this is going to get a lot worse and, if the civil rights struggles of the 1960's are any indication, we are in for a lot of social upheaval as gay Americans stand up and say: "No more! We deserve the same rights that you enjoy and we will fight to the death to protect them!"

  • SanDiegoD
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:34 p.m.

    "They are persecuting our church and other people in California, but they need to get a life and honor democracy," said Sandra Rodrigues, of Cottonwood Heights.

    Majority is not always correct - Amendments 13 & 15, Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education, Civil Rights Act of 1964, Loving vs. Virginia - US history is filled with a steady progression of minority civil rights being gained despite the bigoted views of the majority.

    You came into a state that is not yours, and poured millions of dollars into stripping the civil rights away from a minority group on a ballot issue that was not in your state and therefore was none of your business. Who exactly needs to get a life, here?

  • Harry Kuheim
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:36 p.m.

    I see the Gay community only respects a vote in a Democratic election that goes their way.Just as Obama supporters are crowing about how wonderful democracy is when and only when their guy wins.Heaven forbid that McCain would of won the election,this would have been another miscarrage of Democracy.

  • Jeremy Cruz
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:38 p.m.

    Why are LGBT's focusing completely on the LDS Church? The Church State Council of the Seventh-day Adventist Church (in Westlake Village, CA) also backed the proposition 8 proposal.

    All of this demonstrating looks anti-Mormon and not pro-LGBT. They are singling out a single minority to express there discouragement against. Sound even slightly familiar?

  • Kathy
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:39 p.m.

    I am totally disgusted by the behavior of the GLBT by singling out the Mormon Churches. They are hurting their cause by doing this. The vote should count and the people have spoken. The GLBT think that they can walk over everyone else to get their way. What will be next? I have seen some very hateful behavior by them and they call everyone else a bigot.

  • Yawn
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:41 p.m.

    Wa Wa. I hope all you people can find something constructive to do. I don't think you'll be able to keep up the protests forever. Like was said before, get it on the ballot again in the next election. Maybe you'll win. And luckily, Mormons will continue to fight it no matter what because God never changes and we don't either. The United States will likely continue down the same path it has been, destroying itself from inside. It's been prophesied; it's not news to us. But it is still our responsibility to fight against it. And in the end, you'll see who's right.

  • Sarah
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:42 p.m.

    NEW YORKER: AMEN AMEN AMEN

  • Gettysburg?
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:42 p.m.

    Interesting choice of address. You should have picked a time and place where the president wasn't speaking in the context of protecting the rights of an oppressed minority against the will of half the country's population. State-sanctioned bigotry is never right, no matter how many people approve of it. Most of those who support it now will pretend like they didn't when mainstream culture finally turns in favor of life and liberty and justice for all.

  • Re: Richard G
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:43 p.m.

    Hatred? It seems like everywhere I looked, it's the gay and lesbian community who is showing hatred here. They are loud and boisterous and trying to shove their lifestyle in people's faces. It's not a political issue, it is a moral issue and the religious community has every right to express it's view and doing it in a civilize and peaceful way.

  • Scott
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:43 p.m.

    Mormons have not stepped over the line, they have DRAWN the line. There is no hatred being spewed, just a declaration of what is not right or good for society. Yes selfish people will do whatever they want, "calling evil good, and good, evil" but it will never be the right thing to do. It is wrong and will always be wrong. Until God says otherwise.

  • There is a larger agenda ...
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:44 p.m.

    I used to think the majority of gay marriage supporters were just trying to get some form of basic recognition - and not looking to shove it down others throats. However, if that were the case, it makes me wonder why a civil union would not be sufficient?

    Still, if one looks at the recent legal attacks on organizations affiliated with religious institutions in Americans by gay activists leveraging their newly-established rights as gay married couples (eg Catholic orphanages or even the Boy Scouts), it's clear that the gay activist lobby groups like LAMBDA and HRC definitely have a larger agenda in mind to hurt or change churches to the point they either go away (eg get their IRS tax-exempt status stripped) or have them change their fundamental values to accommodate gay clergy or laity.

  • You will have to kill us tyrants
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:45 p.m.

    B. Heath,

    "It's so ironic that this Rodriguez woman would ask that people respect democracy and the will of the voters. Are civil rights subject to the whim of the voting public?"

    Marriage isn't a civil right. You can lie all you want but the right to vote unlike marriage is our civil right.

    "All I can say is, this is going to get a lot worse and, if the civil rights struggles of the 1960's are any indication, we are in for a lot of social upheaval as gay Americans stand up and say: "No more. We deserve the same rights that you enjoy and we will fight to the death to protect them!"

    And we will fight to the death to protect our right to make the law. Do not threaten us, or attempt to intimidate us because you can have our dead bodies but not our obedience. You have the same rights as us and we have never discriminated against you and those who agree with you are tyrants who want to force the majority to change the law that any gay person can benefit from because you think you are our masters.

  • Kelly
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    No one should have to get a ballot passed in order to KEEP their rights or to win their rights. Just imagine if it had been up to a popular vote when slavery was abolished or women won the right to vote..what is that about. The majority should NEVER get to vote away the rights of the minority. Keep pushing your hate and it will backfire on you. Keep taking away rights and your rights will be next. Wake up and smell the future. The Mormon Church put themselves in this battle, so be it. Oh and as a final note, I am totally disgusted by the behavior of people that have nothing better to do than to try to take away or keep away others rights. If the church keeps messing around in states rights, their rights will be the next to go....peace.

  • Mike
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    This is simply amazing... these protests aren't being organized by the major gay organizations - they are being put together by people who are outraged that a religious organization would dare put their dogma into a state constitution. We have separation of church and state in this country - and people are waking up to the fact of "who's rights are next?" This whole proposition 8 thing is going to backfire and do for gay marriage what years of lobbying could never do. It will galvanize ALL AMERICANS to realize that it is wrong to discriminate. This is the first time that minority rights have been voted away by a majority - and people are slowing waking up to the injustice of that. Doesn't matter if you are gay or straight, married or not... people intuitively know it is WRONG. The bigots will lose, and they know it. Equality will prevail!

  • francis kelly
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    honosectually is now a constitutional right? give me a break

  • Cat
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    Interesting.

    First California decides that, yes, not allowing Gays the civil right to marry is unconstitutional. Then people and churches got mad because they didn't have a say in the decision to whether or not Gays should be allowed to marry and they commence on creating a Proposition to have it defined because they deemed it an affront to the church...even though the "claim" was that it was because it should have gone through a democratic vote.
    So after this close election, people decided for Prop 8 (and from what I've seen people voted for this for il-informed reasons...yes they were il-informed) and Gay Activists are rallying to make the nation pay attention to this insult.
    I believe that there are some things that people should not vote on, like this. I feel that California had every correct intention to protect the basic civil rights of their citizens when they did this and the people crying foul should have just accepted it.

    Ask yourselves why they didn't just accept this decision as a form of protecting citizens' rights.

  • Angela
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    In simple terms this country was founded on Freedom and the Pursuit of Happiness. Live and Let Live

  • LDS CORPORATION
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    Equality will win! Gay people will have the right to marry. We're only talking about how long we have to wait. Let's have homosexuals and the Mormons come to a settlement which should make everyone happy - Let's set a minimum age for consent and let's say the parties have to be human beings, as long as the parties meet those two minimum requirements they can get married - heck, let's even say they can marry as many as they want - who cares (except the religious zealots and "traditonal thinkers")

  • John
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    Why did the Morman Church spend so much money trying to pass Prop. 8? Who gains? Gay marriage does nothing to threaten heterosexual marriage. Polygamy does much more to threaten it. Polygamy has been a part of the Morman Church for a long time as has having under-age girls marry. Talk about threatening traditional marriage!

    Plus it is interesting that the Christian right has, for the most part, attacked homosexuality on every front. What is it, exactly, that they are afraid of? On the list of things to worry about, I'd think a gay couple as neighbors is pretty far down the list.

    The anti-homosexual fervor has much more to do with the powerlessness of it's advocates than it does any threat from gay people.

  • Tenderheart
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:50 p.m.

    While I disagree that calling a same-sex union a "marriage" has anything to do with civil rights, I still suggest that those who believe it does might take a hint from Dr. Martin Luther King about non-violence. Please re-read some of his speeches and upgrade your behavior.
    Meanwhile, we have already had the word "gay" stolen so that little children can no longer sing the "Kookaburra" song (among others) and women named Gay are embarrassed in public. Please don't now steal the word "marriage" by trying to make it mean something else.
    Yes, it does steal something from the real thing when counterfeits can be called by the same name.

  • Tyrants are always annoying
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:49 p.m.

    ANNOYING!,

    "Not only are you closing major streets down, but the commuter's on these streets are ANNOYED with all of you! (even those who voted no on 8), AND the fact that this is "after-the-fact."

    Do you think these voters care about the voters who are trying to get to work but can't because they are exercising their right to assemble. How many people must be inconvenienced so that they can protest the right of the majority to make the law?

    "The voice of the people spoke LOUD AND CLEAR in ALL 3 STATES! Give it a rest. Mask's are off and everyone really see's who you are. And it's not pretty. It's ANNOYING! Just like it would be if I were to stand outside the front of the white house with my McCain sign throwing a 3-year old temper tantrum, because Obama is now the president.
    A N N O Y I N G!"

    You are right. The people chose Obama as President and I voted for him as well. I wouldn't protest him since he is my President but those who support same sex marriage don't understand that the people have spoken. They are tyrants. Nothing more!

  • Expat
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:51 p.m.

    New Yorker

    Too bad. Were gonna keep pushing. Your threats don't scare us. We survived Republicans blocking AIDS funding, and we'll survive whatever you people throw at us. You have a choice America, more of the protests or FULL civil rights for Gays. What you WONT get is continued discrimination against Gays and quiet Gays.

    While we'd like to have tolerance, civility, acceptance, respect, and our civil rights, if we have to jettison the first four to get our civil rights we will. Besides, we never got any tolerance or civility from the Pro H8 crowd. Voting to destroy someones marriage is hateful. Period. By the way, I'd like to see Gay civil unions laws in Utah before the Mormons say another word about this not being Mormons hating Gays.

    Sorry about ruining the word Gay for you. People such as yourself have ruined the word Christian for millions of us. So I guess we're square on that one huh.

    You can keep your supposed tolerance, civility, acceptance and respect. We'll take our civil rights.

  • Dominique
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:51 p.m.

    For those of us who were actually there, this is a very poorly written report of what took place. Tell what we talked about. Don't just pull out sensationalistic quotes from the middle of speeches.

    Were you even there?

  • How ironic????
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:51 p.m.

    Mormons have tried to have multiple wives for eons and now they've bankrolled to keep a class of citizens from having even one???? You coulnd't make this up, really!!

  • tony
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:53 p.m.

    Gays in California have been rebuked by the voters again and again and even have a Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage which the gays want to disobey. That is insurrection and treasonous in itself. Gays that are anarchist must be shut down. Mormons, Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Catholics.... what, do liberals hate everyone who Does Not Bow To Your Demands?

    Get over it. YOU LOST!!! TWICE!!! Face the facts. Marriage is not a civil right. It is a religious ceremony. If you want to have sex, go ahead.

    "GBLTs are never satisfied. Their civil rights are not being discriminated against. Don't you dare compare yourselves to "African American blacks", "Hispanics", "Native Americans". Those are ethnic groups. You aren't a minority-face it. You can have all the rights with a "civil union". THE MAIN STREAM seems to WANTS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU OR YOUR BEHAVIOR.

    YOU CAN PROTEST ALL YOU WANT, YOU CAN PROTEST AT ALL THE CHURCHES, YOU CAN PROTEST AT MORMON CHURCHES ALL OVER THE NATION. I JUST LOVE IT BECAUSE U ARE AM EMBARASSMENT & WILL TURN THE NATION AGAINST YOU!!!!!

  • I like wine
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:53 p.m.

    What you do in your own bedroom is pretty much a private affair. When YOU bring it out in public, it becomes public. Gays, lesbians, etc. have to understand that they are demanding we support and embrace their lifestyles. Homosexuality is something I object to. I won't abuse a homosexual, but, I will not support their lifestyle.

  • Dave
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:53 p.m.

    The GLBT needs to learn the art of "sportsmanship." If Prop 8 would have passed I guarantee that Mormons would not be vandalizing the GLBT buildings, protesting in their cities, or sending messages of hate to their leaders. The state of California has spoken; the majority of them prefer Prop 8. God bless America.

  • CO Coug
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:56 p.m.

    Somebody's protesting and mad at the Mormon Church? Whatever shall we do? Yawn.......nothing new, just different topic. Protest all you want, it wont change anything.

    Funny how no other churches were singled out, they only chose the LDS faith because they knew that we wouldn't do anything in retaliation, whereas another church might come out swinging.

    Don't stress fellow members, the principles of the Church will not change, nor will the Brethren bow down to threats and intimidation.

  • Stenar
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:56 p.m.

    There were thousands of people protesting today, not just hundreds.

  • Ho Hum
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:56 p.m.

    The prince of the world cometh, and hath nothing in me. It doesn't matter if you demonstrate against us. We still love you, and we still believe you are wrong.

  • Carlos
    Nov. 15, 2008 4:57 p.m.

    If by 51/49 we can take the right of people away, maybe we can go with Prop 9 and re establish slavery....

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:00 p.m.

    I'm an atheist.I would not ,however, try to dissuade anyone from their beliefs.
    Kudos to the Mormons for backing their beliefs,and not changing them for the cause of the moment,as apposed to a lot of other so called religions .

  • Stenar
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    America is not a simple democracy. America is a republic. This means the minority should be protected from the tyranny of the majority.

  • Give me a break Utah ok?
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:02 p.m.

    All you people have to do, is dress up Mitt Romney in a dress, turn him lose in the streets there, the handful of the Utah gay community will see him, and, all die laughing at him, you bury them at the county landfill, problem solved. Why is it so hard for you to think up these thing's also?. It works. Than push for Mitt Romney & Sarah Palin for the White House in 2012.

  • Robert Oh
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:04 p.m.

    Mormons, thank you. You have been the catalyst to help focus our cause to move forward. You have been the motivation for thousands both Gay and Straight to find their voices.

    As they said today at the rally... "we'll look back with the next generation, years from today and say - you know, I was there in Salt Lake at the time when it started. Salt Lake City, Really, this IS the place!"

    Mormons, thank you again.

  • Disgusted
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:06 p.m.

    I agree with Anonymous. Why shouldn't we be able to vote on marriage between men and women. For all of you who are in straight marriages, just imagine if one day your marriage was not viewed as legitimate. How would that make you feel? Of course you would fight back.

  • Chachi
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:07 p.m.

    So let's see...this is a political issue, so churches should stay out. Oh, and it's a moral issue, and about fundamental rights! Pick your argument, gay rights people.

  • Dutch
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:08 p.m.

    See the lilies of the field see how they spin see how they toil !!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:12 p.m.

    Democracy 4:33. I don't know what Rodrigues is referring to, but CA electorate passed a bill that defined marriage as between a man and a woman. Then their Supreme Court overturned it. Prop 8 is the second time the people of CA have voted to define marriage as between a man and a woman. Why do YOU get define what marriage is but not me? Separation of Church and State also means keeping your STATE out of my Church. You say you're not going to force me to allow gay marriages in our buildings and temples, but your vitriol, vandalism, and violence make your middle-of-the-road promises seem very, very empty.

  • your momma!!!
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:12 p.m.

    6,156,848 people voted yes on P8, and only 749,490 people in California are LDS. what does that mean??? Over 5 million people dont support gays marrying, and nor do I. why single out a church that has only has a few people in Cali? Are you looking for someone to blame for your defeat?

  • Joe
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:13 p.m.

    The GLBT loves to distort the issue, huh. Its not taking away any rights, because they have all of the same rights in a civil union. Its looking for validation of a behavior choice. Readers here, did you know that the scientific community has never EVER found any evidence that you are BORN gay? They have tried and tried, but there is no Gay gene, no gay instinct, nothing but high hormone levels and screwed up homes/relationship backlash. Being gay is not forced on a person in any way, no matter how loud the GLBT shouts that it is. I will always vote against laws that encourage people to be gay because I don't want to support the lies that state that being gay is anything more than a physical/mental problem. The GLBT community needs therapy, not encouragement!

  • Vigilant
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:13 p.m.

    The anti-Prop 8 protesters are proving that the left's charade of demanding "tolerence and acceptance and diversity" is a bunch of lies. They want tolerence for THEIR views, but not for others, even the majority.

    The gay "rights" agenda is unacceptable. Gay "marriage" is a sham, as well as unacceptable.

    Go home and leave us alone. You had a chance at the ballot box and lost. The will of the people has clearly spoken and overturned the despicable acts of activist California judges.

    If Prop 8 comes up again, we will fight twice as hard to defend traditional marriage.

  • The NIT - Culture Division
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:14 p.m.

    I am so tired of the half-truths and complete lies offered by the "homosexual community" regarding this issue.

    For once and for all - it's NOT a right. Marriage is not a right - got that - NOT a constitutional right. You have no more a "right" than a many times convicted DUI offender has to continue driving a motor vehicle - that's the best analogy. Nobody took ANYTHING away from you.

    You have every right to choose another lifestyle. You have every right to change your ways. You have every right to form a civil union. You have every right to be whatever you call it in your own privacy - I don't want to know about it.

    The PEOPLE in three states have spoken - you lost at the ballot box [a novel idea,huh?]. And, as one of yours said, you may have awoken a sleeping giant and it's not you. For example, I like your great turnout in New York City - a few dozen out of millions and millions of people.

  • Gays: show yourself
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:15 p.m.

    Gays- show yourself. Oh, you already have. Bigoted, hateful, vengeful, violent, arrogant, law breakers, and unconstitutional. Yep, the description seems to fit well. Oh, California is burning. Why are you not there supporting the state. Too busy, protesting in another state for selfish reasons? Not considerate of your neighbor in their plight? How sad that your cruel behavior shouts so loudly across the land that no one can actually hear your rants of meaness towards others' beliefs.

  • What Sir Elton John says
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:16 p.m.

    "I don't want to be married. I'm very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership," said John. "The word marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships."

    The dinner, held at Cipriani Wall Street, was hosted by CNN's Anderson Cooper and featured a performance from Gladys Knight. John's foundation gets a four-star rating, the highest available, from CharityNavigator.com and John, in his speech, called for the enactment of a national AIDS policy.

  • Tax Exempt Status is the Thing
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:18 p.m.

    Of all the many many supporters of Prop 8, the reason the LDS Church gets singled out is not because the protesters think the Church made the difference in the Prop 8 outcome. The vast majority of these protesters probably don't even care about gay marriage.

    Instead, their protests are fueled by their general hate for the LDS Church and all things LDS, and the opening they're taking is based on this thinking: "Hey, hey, hey, we see an opening to take away the Church's tax exempt statuts. Let's go for it. Then, finally, we could cripple the Church's influence, growth and progress around the world."

    The gay marriage prop 8 thing is just a pawn. The end game is destruction of the Church.

    Man, oh man what deep-seated bigotry is alive and well in this the 21st century. The struggle for freedom from religious bigotry goes on.

  • Peter
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:19 p.m.

    The Gay Activist claim that they're only seeking equal rights is seriously disingenuous because they seek to turn society into Sodom and Gomorrah as Lot experienced described in Genesis 19. The blessings and sanctity of the family were established in the ancient law of marriage reflected in God giving Eve to Adam to be his wife with the command to multiply and replenish the earth. The sanctity of the family was further magnified in God's promise to Abraham that through his posterity all the families of the earth would be blessed with the gospel of salvation even life eternal. The emphasis is on Family not the separate individual!

    This ideal can not, could not, and never could be possible with any conceivable homosexual relationship. The sexual relationship between gays violates and corrupts the sanctity and promise for life eternal in holy marriage as blatantly as do adultery and fornication. To make a homosexual couple a family would pervert, destroy and overthrow this marvelous ancient law of eternal promise!

    Their lie is vividly demonstrated in Massachusetts where parents seeking their parental right to protect their child from being taught homosexual behavior in primary education were thrown in jail.

  • Sir Elton John con'd
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:19 p.m.

    The entire text of this article which appeared in Wed Nov.12, 2008 USA today. It can found online at their website or at protect marriage. Note also that Gladys Knight, a Mormom, sang at his benefit. We truly don't hate gays. See this article for yourself and then email it to everyone you know. He is the world's most famous gay man and he says civil partnerships are equal to marriages!!!!

  • Idea.
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:21 p.m.

    I know!
    Let's just vote on it...

    oh, wait...

  • just reward
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:22 p.m.

    The mormon church is getting exactly what it deserves. You spout bigotry and that's what you get in return. The mormons have united the LGBT community more than ever before. We're mad and we're not going to take it any more.

  • Clark
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:22 p.m.

    For years and years and years, anti-Mormon preachers, speakers and protestors have been saying the LDS Church is fading away into oblivion. They claim the LDS Church is no longer able to produce any kind of effective change in the society at large and that eventually, there membership will disappear into just a few pockets of people here and there.

    Well, if all this were true, then how come Prop 8 passed? How come the LDS Church has become the main target of gay activists? How come the LDS Church continues to receive large amounts of press coverage?

    Simple, many people, whether they will admit or not, truly fear the LDS Church. It's not an Osama Bin Laden type fear, but a fear that, despite the best efforts of anti-mormons everyone, the LDS Church is growing and will continue to grow.

    And as for Richard G. 4:04's comment, as well as Henry Drummond 4:11's comment, YES, the LDS Church has sown something. The have sown an awakeness to the world that they mean business, that they don't shamlessly cow-town to the winds of political correctness, and that even with small numbers, they can make a difference.

  • Chip
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:23 p.m.

    I think the more accurate assessment of the situation is that 5 judges awoke the real sleeping giant - the voting public. Gay marriage has been voted down in every state where the citizens have been given a voice. A full 29 states have constitutional bans on gay marriage, and we're still counting.

  • Contradiction!!!
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:24 p.m.

    The gay community is extremely fierce about protecting its viewpoints because they feel like another group (the LDS church) is infringing upon their beliefs. Their desire to protect their beliefs is commendable. However, they argue that this all comes down to protecting their personal rights to marry and because another group feels differently than them, they call that group a bunch of hating bigots. This is where they begin to cross the line.

    On the other hand, The LDS church rarely gets involved in political matters, unless it is a moral issue in which the outcome could affect their beliefs as a church. So, in response to Proposition 8, the church encouraged members in California (not in Utah) to take a stand on an issue that could affect marriage, the core belief in their church.

    Hmmmmm, both groups take a stand on an important issue that they both believe is effecting their rights. When the voice of the people decide the issue (not one church!) the gay-rights supporters freak out, point fingers and start calling names, because the church was doing the same thing that they are trying to do?

    Seems like a contradiction to me! Who are the haters?

  • david
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:26 p.m.

    if you were at the demonstration today then you know the speeches were not anti LDS. The focus was on marriage and equality. Speakers were explicit, as well, in the need for respect of religious and other rights. Sheesh.

    Democracy is about protesting to make your voice heard. The fact tat someone has a belief and has to deal with protesters because of the consequence of their belief is also democracy and takes no ones right away. That is part of the system. Stop whining pro-8 people. You won the election, now you see the energizing effects of your vote. That is how the system works.

  • Proud to be ME
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:25 p.m.

    I am proud to support the GLBT efforts. This county has a strong history of civil rights movements. I'm just glad I can play an active role in this one. March on my friends, march on.

  • Re: Henry Drummond
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:27 p.m.

    You are quite mistaken. These protests are exposing the nation to the radical fringe of the gay rights movement. That portion that feels singling out individuals at their workplace, boycotting church farms and programs that serve the needy, and yes even committing acts of domestic terrorism are all fine in the name of tolerance. The irony is so very rich. I promise you, we'll have public opinion survey soon enough and you'll see that most Americans will be turned off by the extremist tactics employed by gay rights activists. They are the ones who stepped over the line. They preach a message that faith is the equivalent of hate. That supporting the traditional definition of marriage is some how an explicit act of hate. It is not. We are taught to hate the sin and love the sinner. We love our gay brothers and sisters, they are the ones that have reduced us to a catch-phrase. Their rhetoric is firing up nihilists and fanning the flame's of this country's culture war. They would be wise to stop blaming others for their defeat and consider how they managed to lose in one of the most liberal states in the nation.

  • Please
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:28 p.m.

    If every voting elegible California mormon voted against prop 8, it still would have passed. California democrats had a significantly greater role in passing prop 8. The LDS church had a very minority roll in prop 8. For a group that already has full domestic partnership rights, you are falsely making yourself a victom. Please stop the delusional claims.

  • steve Semita
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:30 p.m.

    The gays and lesbians need to realize that the Church of Jesus Christ bases its doctrines on scriptures that are thousands of years old and on modern revelation. The Bible leaves no doubt that marriage is to be between the sexes, not within them. You cannot expect to challenge ancient laws and directions from God by introducing changes that contradict these established rules. God calls homosexuality an abomination. What homosexuals do is called sodomy since it is recorded that Sodom was destroyed because of the practices of its inhabitants. Will follows of Jesus Christ resist those who wish to call their actions correct? Bet on it. Gays, lesbians, do what you want. That's your right. But it is not marriage. It is not ordained of God and it must be fought against as unacceptable to those who follow the teachings of God and His Son.

  • Rights
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:35 p.m.

    The LDS church is not confined just to the state of Utah. There are tons of members in CA, so the church has a right to protect it's members there as much as anywhere. "Protect" you say? That's right. If people would actually read the legislation that Prop. 8 overturned then they would know that it actually would have been a major violation of rights for LDS people to practice marraige in CA. LDS members could have lost the right to perform temple marraiges in CA because they would have been required to allow gay marraiges in LDS temples. This violates LDS beliefs about who is allowed to enter their temples. As a result, the temples in CA may have needed to close. This is why the church got involved, to protect it's members rights, not because of hate. If gays want equal right, that's fine, but not at the expense of others rights.

  • lawsofmurphy
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:39 p.m.

    Has anyone considered that this may not be a vote against Gay Rights as much as it is a vote against the Judges in CA who CONSTANTLY introduce laws and do not go through the proper channels? I feel like the national media is missing this important side of the issue.

    Not being from CA, but being in CA during the vote and listening to the discussions, most people I interacted with weren't anti gay, but "anti judges."

  • YAWN, YAWN, YAWN
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:41 p.m.

    Same stuff different day. Why can't the GLBT's come up with something original.

    We can fight back and forth all day long, but it does not negate the fact that the California's voted and it did not go your way.

    What kind of cheese can I find for your "Whine".

  • Please
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:43 p.m.

    Why aren't any of these protestors showing up outside an Obama press conference? He has stated on multiple occasions that he does not support gay marriage. Where's the outrage?

  • Re: Robert Oh
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:45 p.m.

    Thanks for displaying your true colors.

    You've been the catalyst for me to worker even harder in the future to prevent the indoctrination of my children.

    Gay people, thank you again.



  • To Stenar
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:45 p.m.

    America is governed by the majority. We vote to elect a president, representives, etc, does not the majority rule. Guess we should through out Obama because the majority should not have their say. We need to be protected from the Majority. Stenar, are you for real????

  • Everyone is treated equally
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:47 p.m.

    Disgusted,

    "I agree with Anonymous. Why shouldn't we be able to vote on marriage between men and women. For all of you who are in straight marriages, just imagine if one day your marriage was not viewed as legitimate. How would that make you feel? Of course you would fight back."

    If that vote targets a specific race, gender, sexual orientation, religion or any other factor then it is a violation of our civil rights and everyone would be well within their right to protest but that is a different issue because marriages of homosexuals are not invalidated based on their sexual orientation, or their race, or their gender, or their religion or any other factor. A gay person or a straight person who marries a person of the opposite sex will not have their marriages invalidated based on sexual orientation. A straight Mormon who married a gay Lutheran will not have their marriages invalidated based on their religion or sexual orientation.

    This is what makes the current definition of marriage non-discriminatory. A woman can marry a man and a man can marry a woman regardless of sexual orientation, gender, race, religion or any other factor.

  • Deal?
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:48 p.m.

    This is from my good friend:

    Dear people who are persecuting the Mormon Church for supporting Proposition 8,

    I can understand why youre angry. However now that you are mad at us about this can we finally be off the hook for polygamy? It hasnt been practiced for over 100 years in our church and were still getting grief over it. It doesnt make sense for you to criticize us for practicing an unorthodox form of marriage 100 years ago when that is what you are fighting to have the right for today.

  • RE: JUST REWARD
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:48 p.m.

    You are oh so mad, oh oh so mad, and you won't take it anymore...go line up in the streets, yell, kick, scream, whatever you have to do to feel better... Why don't you go line up on the borders of California, seems like the MAJORITY over there voted yes, and they aren't Mormons....get a life...

  • Skippy
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:49 p.m.

    Lets move on to some other news. This story is old and yes I posted this comment.

  • New Yorker
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:49 p.m.

    expat:
    you might think about tiptoeing back into the closet.

  • geedub
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:50 p.m.

    Homosexuals are not now nor have ever been banned from marrying. Marriage is DEFINED as the union of a man and a woman. Homosexuals are free to marry anyone who is of the opposite sex.

  • German
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:53 p.m.

    Mormons have the right to disagree with a life style. They don't have the right to interfere with some else's life.
    "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."
    Voltaire (1694 - 1778),

  • Please learn what a Republic is.
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:55 p.m.

    Stenar,

    "America is not a simple democracy. America is a republic. This means the minority should be protected from the tyranny of the majority."

    It also means that the majority must be protected from the tyranny of the minority. It doesn't go all one way. In this instance it is the minority who is trying to impose their will on the majority even though the majority doesn't discriminate against them based on their race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

    Thomas Jefferson said it best when he said "[Bear] always in mind that a nation ceases to be republican only when the will of the majority ceases to be the law" and "We are sensible of the duty and expediency of submitting our opinions to the will of the majority, and can wait with patience till they get right if they happen to be at any time wrong." He went on to say "Against such a majority we cannot effect [the gathering them into the fold of truth] by force. Reason and persuasion are the only practicable instruments" and "If the measures which have been pursued are approved by the majority, it is the duty of the minority to acquiesce and conform."

  • To Anonymous at 4:03
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:58 p.m.

    That is the dumbest comment that has ever been blogged. This issue is over marriage defined between a man and woman. Not whether or not marriage can happen. I am sick of hearing about all of this as a civil rights issue. Everyone I ask cannot tell me how this is a civil rights issue. I have asked both sides and the only thing I hear is marriage should be between anyone. Stop comparing yourself to the African American movement. No one is beating or killing gay or lesbians. You are not being shunned when you go into a restaurant. You are not separated by a dividing line. The question is marriage. It is defined as man and woman. No one is withholding benefits. Nothing is being taken away except the sanctity of marriage being withheld. Sue whomever you want. Marriage will always be between a man and a woman. Even if some judges think differently. The power of procreation cannot happen between two women and two men.
    Last thing, stop addressing this as the Mormon's fault. No matter how much you protest in Utah or at any other Mormon church or temple it will not change the church's stance.

  • Stand firm
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:59 p.m.

    If the only thing at issue were the civil rights of gay people, I would never have voted yes for Prop 8. But, that is not the issue. You lost, and you cannot bring yourselves to accept that all of your Hollywood money could not overturn the people of Florida, Arizona, and California. The people have spoken. See you in 2012.

  • George W. Bush
    Nov. 15, 2008 5:59 p.m.

    Actions have consequences. When you step into the fire, you should expect to get burned.

    We showed those Dixie Chicks what it means to be a citizen and speak out. Drive 'em out of business. Burn their CD's. Show them who's boss.

    Keep following our righteous example. We showed you exactly how to do it.

  • Constitutional Rights?
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:06 p.m.

    Wow!

    Can someone please tell me which constitutional right is being violated by a law the protects traditional marriage? I'm not quite seeing it.

    IF there is a federal constitutional right involved, then why waste all the time and agony currently being undertaken? Why not just get a case before the U.S. Supreme Court and have the Court declare unconstitutional the law the voters in California just approved. Simple.

    IF there isn't a federal constitutional right involved, then the people may pass a law limiting marriage to the traditional definition (which they have just done) and, given the fluidity of the California initiative process, other people may propose a different initiative and have that passed. Again, it's simple.

    Until then, why doesn't the majority rule?

  • Rights...
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:07 p.m.

    So why did Proposition 8 not go the way of the gay rights people in California? I think that it could only be those big bad Mormons! I mean, what were we thinking, allowing others to make a choice and vote on an issue? How silly. Certainly everyone who wasn't Mormon and voted against the gay rights people were brainwashed by those naughty boys in white with tags. If it weren't for those big bad Mormons, surely gay rights would be different in California right now.

  • Douglas
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:08 p.m.

    The fact is that the voters in 3 states voted on an issue that was left to the voters. It's interesting that homsexuality is being viewed as the same as racial prejudice. Last I heard, sexual orientation isn't a minority. You chose a life style that is far different than the norm. You don't qualify as a couple, you are not the norm. You are also not a minority that needs protecting. Marriage is a means of joy where families are created through the gift of procreation. I don't think that's possible in a homosexual relationship. I guess that's something that you will just have to get used to. Hence the difference in marriage and civil unions.

  • re: John 4:49
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:09 p.m.

    Homosexual marriage threatens traditional marriage in that once it becomes legal homosexuals will use that power to legitimize homosexuality in churches, schools, etc. This is not a lie.

    Go ahead, any of you homosexuals (especially now that you are smoking angry at the LDS church) and HONESTLY tell us that the homosexual lobby doesn't have the destruction of organized religion on their agenda. This is what will happen when they decide to sue.

    Go ahead, any of you homosexuals, and HONESTLY tell us that indoctrination of our children will not take place once homosexual marriage is legalized by the state. It's already taking place in Massachusetts...google it.

    Regarding your slam on polygamy:

    What do you think will happen when homosexual marriage is legalized? Use the same arguments for homosexual marriage and HOW CAN YOU DENY POLYGAMISTS THE SAME RIGHT??? Legalization of homosexual marriage is a dangerous slippery slope that you yourself don't want to walk down (as evidenced by your concern about polygamy).

    Most Americans really could care less what people do with their private lives. But there is a line drawn when we realize equal "marriage" is a not what it seems. It's a power play. Pure and simple.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:15 p.m.

    I hope the church takes a beatin' on this one. They have chosen...poorly.

  • Los Angeles
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:17 p.m.

    The attach on LDS members and buildings has slowed in LA a bit because of the backlash here. Many people who have not necessarily been very friendly to the LDS have called to thank them for their actions. Pastors have asked their congregations to call and thank there LDS friends.

    The Gay and Lesbian leaders here have suddenly realized that their actions have been counter productive to their cause. They are now viewed as mean, vindictive, intolerant and vulgar. Beating up old women and using filthy speech in the presence of children has definitely not helped their cause. The media may be on the side of the Gays and Lesbians in this instance but the people are not.

    I suspect Prop 8 would pass by a more substantial margin today than on Nov. 4.

  • Jared
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:17 p.m.

    At the core of this debate is the separation of church and state. The Book of Mormon warns against laws governing beliefs that would "bring men onto unequal grounds" (Alma 30:7). At the same time, churches need to be protected from government intervention that would infringe upon the church's practices (providing that these practices are not harmful and do not take away the rights of individual's outside of the church). Ironically, the solution to this debate resides within the current practices of the LDS church. Currently, the church acknowledges a "tiered" marriage system consisting of a "civil" or "legal" marriage and a "higher" marriage system based upon the religious teachings of the church (Temple Marriage). By separating the "legal" and "spiritual" compenents of marriage, the legal rights and responsibilities afforded by government recognized marriages can be extended to all individuals while church sanctioned marriages could be controlled by the religious institutions offering them as part of their practices. Churches would have control over the conditions of entering into these religiously governed marriages (e.g., by limiting to heterosexual couples). Ultimately, the church could then focused on strengthening members through the meaning and sanctity of the religious aspects of the marriage.

  • Sky
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    Gay community? Why does the LDS church and it's member think someone who supports individual rights, which also means yes gay people, are they themselves gay?

    I am a married hetro sexual female who stands by the bible verse judge less shall be judged. I accept this is not my place nor anyone else on this beautiful planet to judge another. Perhaps members of LDS faith should stop reading the Book of Mormon for a moment and re educate themselves on the Bible and what it means to say you are a christian.

    Love only creates more love. Anger and hate are the destruction pieces of any civilization.

  • Enough
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:20 p.m.

    If the press wouldn't give them so much attention, maybe they would shut up and go home!

  • CATE
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:21 p.m.

    Can't the so-called blacklists work both ways? Those of us who deeply believe marriage between a man and a woman is the best way to strengthen a civilization (not to mention perpetuate the population - has anyone taken biology?) can send support and business to the people who voted their conscience. The sleeping giant actually represents those of us who are so busy trying to keep our communities together, despite efforts from those who just want their way regardless of consequences. We don't have time to protest, because we are parents and teachers and community volunteers picking up the pieces of a very threatened society. I am not threatened by anyone in the GLBT population, and I know there are many good people who have been hurt. But they ARE free to pursue their lifestyle, just as I am free to pursue my traditional lifestyle. Let's show our support instead of fighting!

  • CITIZEN
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:22 p.m.

    I am so concerned about al the demonstrations that i tossed and turned last-nite and didn't fall asleep untill 9 p.m.but i'm sure i'll get over it!!!

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:22 p.m.

    why can't i say God at graduation?
    why can't i say in God we trust during the preamble...in fact, why did we completely get rid of saying the preamble?
    Why can't we say a prayer at sport games anymore?
    Why can't we say a prayer at graduation anymore?

    GAYS believe in being OPEN minded- as long as it is THEIR way!
    LIBERALS believe in being OPEN minded- as long as it is THEIR way!
    When it comes to the average God-fearing person...our rights have quickly been taken away!

  • California Volunteer
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:25 p.m.

    We are OVER the gay response to the vote. Proposition 8 has passed and we are not out celebrating in the streets we are being very respectful unlike those who did not get what they voted for!!

    YES, PROP 8 HAD DONORS BUT THE RESULTS OF THIS VOTE IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE DONATIONS!! IT WAS A LOT OF WORK!! Yes, many disagreed with us during the process and we responded with "we respect your position" and then we moved on.

    I think the gays are upset that religious people came together for this cause and Prop 8 passed.

    I can't emphasize the amount of hours that were donated by MANY PEOPLE of MANY RELIGIONS! So please leave the Mormon Church alone!

    P.S. Thank you Elton John for speaking out on "civil partnerships".


  • mark
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:28 p.m.

    WHy is LDS the prime target of LGBT protests?
    Cuz ya wrote the initiative AND gave 4 of every 5 dollars for the Yes on Prop 8.
    If ya can't take the BLOWBACK, speak to your elders, and thank them for your increased property and sales taxes, when 6 BILLION dollar Utah tourism TANKS.

    I hadn't held any animosity towards Robert Redford and Sundance organizers until NOW. If Sundance uses Cinemark as their main venue, who donated heavily to Prop 8....EVERY film at the festival will be BOYCOTTED too.
    Cinemark you can say buh bye to ALL LGBT patrons in EVERY state.

  • some guy
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:31 p.m.

    There are people on both sides of the argument who are out of line. "Stop the hate" is right. Stop disrespecting gay people. Stop disrespecting religious people who disagree with gay people. Stop vandalizing churches. Stop persecuting gays.

    We've all got problems. Each of us has a responsibility to live our lives as best we can. And we should be helping each other out along the way, not bringing each other down.

    If homosexuality is a sin, isn't it also a sin to fail to love one's neighbor? Certainly, we should vote according to our beliefs. But in the daily challenges of life, we should be kind to one another. If we disagree, we should be civil to one another.

    The religious community should seek to understand the gay community. Ask, "Why do they believe the way they do? What kind of people are they?" Don't just call them sinners. We are all imperfect.

    Likewise, the gay community should seek to understand the religious community. Ask, "What are their beliefs? What kind of people are they?" Don't just call them bigots. We are all imperfect.

    We cannot let our devotion to one particular belief trump our basic human decency.

  • Tew
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:35 p.m.

    Does anyone wonder why the state of California is burning down today? God and good will prevail.

  • Doodles
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:36 p.m.

    This is not a disagreement about supposed civil rights. At the present "civil unions" grant all the "rights" available to any California couple.

    This is an argument over the re-definition of the word "marriage", and by extension, the word "family". Despite all the rhetoric, hundreds and hundreds of posts on each related story, and all the name calling and all the anger and defensive and offensive words, what this argument comes down to is wheather or not we should re-define a very old word and the conotation which it has acquired over many thousands of years.

    I say "No, we should not redefine 'marriage'."

    Certainly the world has come up with many new nouns to describe people, places and things in todays culture. If the homosexual community wants a word to describe two adult humans of the same sex living together, with the understanding that they are having sexual relations, that is fine. No one is trying to keep them from coining their own word and using it. With continual use it will probably be included in the dictionary eventually.

    The word "marriage" all ready has a definition and I believe that most Americans are not willing to change it.

  • Validation?
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:37 p.m.

    I read over and over that people think gay men and women only want to get married so that the straight community will be forced to "validate" their lives. ??????? A smarter person would realize that if the gay community really cared what anyone else thought they'd all be huddled at home hiding in the closet.

  • Give it a rest
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:39 p.m.

    I am so glad I left UT. Why do Mormons think they can act this way? Of course the gays are upset... they are being treated like animals. Straight people have pretty much screwed up the institution of marriage in the last 50 years... let the gays have a go at ti.

  • Rich
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:40 p.m.

    I have a few cooment to make. Probably already done in earlier posts but I have to have my say anyway.
    First if the Church (LDS) did not stand up oppose gay marriages, then we would be hypocrits. Second, Mormons make up about what? 1% of California population and 52% of the people said no to gay marriage. Doesn't sound like we were the majority of the voters but a minority. Third, I think it's ironic that a group of people is speaking out about hate using hate. Gays are just a bunch of hypocrits. Lastly, we don't hate gays, just what they do. Hate the sin, not the sinner. Over 100 years ago, the government and majority of the people said no to plural marriage, did we protest and call others hatemongers? No, we accepted the will of the majority. Plural marriage has basis in the Bible, homosexuality does not. Remember sodom and gomorrah?

  • Great Post
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:47 p.m.

    wow, "some guy" that was probably the best post I have seen in Months if not years. Thank you for showing there are still reasonable people in the world and that reasonable people can disagree without being nasty.

  • Robert Oh
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:51 p.m.

    To those who say gays have the right to marry, just not to someone of the sex that they want to. How would you feel if I as a gay man decided to marry your daughter or your sister? Do you think that would be fair to her?

    As they said at the rally today..."There are thousands of gay people in Utah who are today legally married, their spouses just don't know about it." They will eventually and families will be torn apart. But of course since you think we should marry someone we don't want to, it's ok.

    How's that for family values?

  • John
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:55 p.m.

    The LDS Church DID NOT give any money to the Yes on Proposition 8 campaign. Get your "facts" straight, Mark. It was individual people who donated their time and money to the cause. This was their legal right to do so. Do not harass and target people who were exercising their right to vote. Why punish the LDS Church, Utah and it's tourism industry for something that the people of California VOTED for? It makes no sense.

    Obviously, all these people who are exercising hatred towards the LDS Church and Utah do not have their facts straight.

  • Heath
    Nov. 15, 2008 6:55 p.m.

    The caravan is moving on. All you antis and protestors best get ou the the way.

  • Discrimination?
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:00 p.m.

    Where exactly is the discrimination? No law has said that gays or lesbians cannot marry. The laws have only said that marriage has to be between one man and one woman. The law is equally applied to all and doesn't select a certain group to grant or deny any particular rights to. Even if I wanted to marry a person of my same gender for whatever reason, whether it be inheritance or whatever, I am denied the state's sanction of such a marriage. Gays can also marry any other consenting adult of the opposite gender, for whatever reason they want.

    The argument that gays are being denied the right to marry who they love shifts the point from a rational argument of denial of rights to more of a play on emotions. Civil unions grant all the same rights. If marriage becomes classified as a fundamental right and the decision of the state as to who can marry is based on marrying who one loves, there could ultimately be no restrictions on marriage. Any argument currently presented i.e. bigotry, by the opponents of Proposition 8 could be easily used to push the removal of any restrictions or mores society has.

  • Brett
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:03 p.m.

    Threats and intimidation are wrong, period. Regardless of your position on the issue, you need to win by convincing the people of the merit of your position. Regardless of what you might say about civil rights struggles for blacks and women, those rights were given because a majority of the people were convinced of the merit of their positions (i.e. constitutional amendments). Instead of trying to force others to believe the same as you, convince them. NO more temper-tantrums and no more threats or violence.

  • Zobewan
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:04 p.m.

    Stenar - Of course marriage is rooted in religion.
    Civil Marriage Is between a man and a woman outside the church context.
    Back in the 60's "marriage" became passe', unnecessary, and irrelevant outside the context of religion! "Who needs a piece of paper?", we ALL said.
    In my opinion, "marriage" IS a religious term and should not be used outside the context of a man and a woman....think of another term...other than marriage...oh, you already have one??..then what's the point??? Must be a MONEY thing...ah yes, the almighty something for nothing motivation disguised again as the irrelevant, and selfish fulfilment of self and satisfying of your own selfish desires. Marriage is the LEAST self-serving thing that can be done in life because you both give up yourselves in the rearing of CHILDREN.
    It is NOT your civil right to get more of my tax money for nothing.
    It is my understanding that 44 states voted FOR the ban, so redouble your efforts, without the violence, cz thats just hurting your cause, and try again next time, like all the rest of us have to do, in pursuit of those goals important to each of us individually in our lives.

  • Clark
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:05 p.m.

    Gays and lesbians say they want equal rights, but what about equality in American culture?

    A few seasons ago, the CBS cop show CSI aired an episode in which the killer was a gay person. CBS' phone lines and e-mail accounts went hey wire. The gays were angry that they were portrayed in such a negative way on television. The same thing happened when movies like "Basic Instinct" and "Showgirls" came out.

    When Greg Louganis, the gay Olympic diver, wrote his autobiography, he drew ire from many of his fellow gays for discussing how he had been in abusive relationships with other men.

    So, once same-sex marriage is legal, will we see TV programs discussing domestic violence in gay and lesbian reltionships, like we do heterosexual ones? Will we see news reports about sexual abuse in a same-sex marriage household?

    DON'T BET ON IT! The gays and lesbians want the good, without the bad. Plain and simple!



  • dcc
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:08 p.m.

    It wasn't all bad. A lot of mormons were separated from their money. Hitting them in the wallet always works.

  • Got the answer!!
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:10 p.m.

    Here's the answer. Let them live in "Paradise" for both. Let all the gay men get married and have one of the Hawaiian Islands all to themselves. Same thing for the gay women. They can all be sooo happy expressing their "rights."

    In a couple of generations there won't be anymore problem!

  • So You're A Robot?
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:11 p.m.

    Article quote: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' involvement in the issue has turned Utah into "ground zero" for the gay civil rights movement, Jeff Key, a gay Iraq war veteran, told the crowd gathered at the Salt Lake City-County Building...."You called us out," Key said. "YOU did this."

    Really? Mormons are making you move your feet and wave your arms and paint antagonistic signs and jump up and down and yell and look foolish?

    "Mormons" did that? Wow, and here I thought you were an intelligent human being who was capable of freedom of thought and action.

    Silly me....




  • Mark
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:13 p.m.

    Can't we all just get along? I'm sure people wont ski and come to Utah because of this. That's sad. I guess they'll have to settle for Texas. It passed! It passed in a lot of states. Your liberal friends are the ones to thank for it. Don't be mad at democracy. It's a good thing. Bring it to vote again. Lets see if your liberal judges will do what that the people want. Look at who voted. The mormons weren't the ones to pass it. It was the other millions of people who did. That's what you do though pick and choose who you want to discriminate against because they don't follow your views. Nice!!!

  • Tragic hatred
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:15 p.m.

    The world won't soon forget what the mormon cult's hateful history is about, denying membership and equality to African-Americans until VERY late in the 20th century, campaigning against simple equality for gays, Warren Jeffs who emulated Joseph Smith. most americans know that mormonism is simply a well-funded cult. you have indeed awakened a sleeping giant and you will now reap what you've sown.

  • Kirk In CA.
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:16 p.m.

    2000 --- Prop 22.. YES
    2008 --- Prop 8 .. YES
    20?? --- Shall we dance again?

    Why can't the pro gay's understand that WE DONT WANT GAY MARRIAGE in California? It seems that the east coast is calling for you. Move there, or be happy with domestic parterships here.
    I've never been more proud to be a Mormon. Bring on the pro gay marriage props. We'll fight it again happily.

  • Nice Try
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:16 p.m.

    Story quote: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' involvement in the issue has turned Utah into "ground zero" for the gay civil rights movement, Jeff Key, a gay Iraq war veteran, told the crowd gathered at the Salt Lake City-County Building...."You called us out," Key said. "YOU did this."

    Ahhhh....the great "It's not my fault" argument.

    Dude, that works up until you're about 6.

  • Helen
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:20 p.m.

    The church is reeling from this. STOP. All the members posting here just make it worse and worse. STOP. I can't beleive how the church leadership and members have reacted to this! You should be ashamed. I love my church but this is just to much, way to much.

  • 2 Cents
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:21 p.m.

    Just as some homosexuals hope this issue has awakened their "sleeping giant", I am hopeful this ordeal will open up an honest discussion about homosexuality itself, its origins, nature, and consequences. My instincts tell me the more they continue to rankle others, the more willing people will be to tackle the issue. Since the APA removed homosexuality from the list of mental disorders in the early 1970s, mainly due to political pressure, research on the matter all but screeched to a halt, except for a small cadre of mostly gay researchers desperate to find proof that the lifestyle they lead is pre-engineered, and therefore perfectly natural and justified.

    Some of the studies that have been performed, however, are fairly interesting. One such study, done several years ago, showed that among identical twins, if one twin was homosexual, there was approximately a 52% chance the other twin would be gay. Thats curious. If one twin is gay, and his/her genes are identical to the other twin, and sexuality is determined by genetics, one would think the correlation would be 100%.

    But discussing the science is unpopular nowadays, with more emphasis focused on silencing all discussion by intimidating those who disagree.

  • 2 Cents
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:22 p.m.

    On a different note, I'm puzzled by the gay community's argument that society should simply live and let live. What do heterosexuals care if homosexuals marry, they ask? Homosexuals aren't trying to impinge on heterosexual lifestyles or church rights, after all. But this argument has already been shown to be flatly untenable.

    Take, for instance, a recent court case in Connecticut. A Protestant church refused to permit a lesbian couple to use their building to perform ceremonies. The couple took the church to court, challenging their tax exempt status, and surprise, surprise, they won. In addition, look at the heat the Boy Scouts of America has been under in recent years for their opposition to permitting homosexual leaders into their ranks. The city of Philadelphia booted them from a city building that they had leased for years because they wouldn't budge. Examples as these plainly show why non-gays care so much about the issue. This isn't simply about granting homosexuals the right to marry, its about precluding the negative fallout from such an action, which is the eventual impingement on the rights on organizations to marry whom they please, and to teach morality according to their own precepts.

  • Lost in traslation
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    Wow, the gay community really missed the reason why I voted for 102 in AZ. I votes yes becasue I felt that my beliefs were being atacked and my ability to practice my religion was slowly being taken away. This reaction is reinforcing that.
    I don't believe that Mormons or anyone else(with some exceptions i'm sure) who voted yes, hate the gay community, I think they just felt that it was time to step up and hold to thier morals.
    What right does anyone have to protest my vote?
    I hope that EVERYONE can take a step back and realize that we are still children of our Heavenly Father and thus brothers and sisters. Someday we will come together again as friends and neighbors and let peace prevail. Sooner better than later!

  • good grief
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:24 p.m.

    EVERYONE has the right to marry.... as long as it's not with someone as the same anatomy as them. This isn't a civil rights issue. No one is being discriminated against. Gay people do deserve equal rights, which they already have. However, they do not deserve special rights to accomodate their chosen lifestlye.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:28 p.m.

    Prop 8 died on election day. let's move on people.

  • Re:Discrimination
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:29 p.m.

    We want to marry because of love...love not "inheritance or whatever"...therein lies the discrimination, we are not able to marry the person we love because we are gay.

  • Jay
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:29 p.m.

    It is a magnificent thing to live in a marvelous country, and to have the right to think and vote as I wish, and to use every talent and ability to convince others of my beliefs if not done by coersion or force. I believe that marriage should be defined as between a man and a woman. I went to the polls and used my agency to vote according to my beliefs and my conscience in support of Prop 8. I did not harrass or condemn those who voted otherwise. I personally did not initiate this opportunity to vote. The opportunity was presented and I voted. I have gay relatives and friends who live in lawful "unions", and have the rights I have. I do not feel it appropriate to redefine marriage to be anything other than between a man and a woman, for the protection of our society and future generations.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:32 p.m.

    The LDS doesn't understand what equal protection under the law is and has behaved un-Americanly. Gay or str* -- we won't put up with it!

  • Curious
    Nov. 15, 2008 7:47 p.m.

    Why is it that so many mormon retorts contain the phrases: "get a life", "get a clue", or, "get real". It seems like such a grade school comeback. Is this the equivalent of mormon swearing? Just wondering.

  • Edmund C. Burke
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:03 p.m.

    "All that is needed for evil to succeed is that decent human beings do nothing". - Edmund C. Burke

    The Majority rules, Proposition 8 succeeded!

  • awsomeron
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:04 p.m.

    The only thing I get out of this so far is that these Gay Marriage people are SORE LOSERS.

    Had they Won would I have the right to make such a noise over their winning, think not. My protest would be considered hate speech and anti gay marriage. They would be right on the 2nd. However i believed that Gay Marriage was wrong way before I joined the Church

    So according to them this Democracy thing is only supposed to work if it works for them. I do not think so.

    I would bert that the Church has good security in place and that they are beyond ready to protect property and take care of business, if need be.

    This has nothing to do with Church and State. You Vote according to your belief system and what you feel is right.

    You give Mormons and lots of other Christians way to much credit on this issue.


  • Tired
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:07 p.m.

    The economy is up in flames and this gets more air time than any issue. Who cares? Move to Massachussets if it's such a big problem. That's why states are allowed to make their own laws - competitive advantage.

  • Lets just get along
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:10 p.m.

    Homophobes, chill out: Gays have been around forever, let them live in peace and respect.

    Gays, chill out: the people have spoken and voted against defining Gay people as married.

    What will protesting LDS facilities do ?

    Will it make it reverse ?

    What if it went in favor of the Gay population, would it be right for "heteros" to protest Gay groups and their assemblies ?

    What about the other groups, like the Knights of Columbus and anyone else voting against Gay marriage ? I'll bet more non-LDS voted against Gay marriage than LDS members.

    Face it, the majority won out on this issue, that's what a democracy is supposed to do; vote on issues and candidates, then move on.

    I am a "hetero" and do respect those who chose the Gay lifestyle. My deceased uncle, whom I loved dearly, was my role model as a "Man's Man", was Gay. His surviving partner is an "uncle" to me as much as my blood relation uncles.

    But if the populace voted against Gay marriage, lets just move on and deal with it. Let's live the lives we choose and respect one another.



  • re: Curious
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:16 p.m.

    Actually, liberal use of the words: "fetch", "fetchin", "crud", and "flippin" fit the category of LDS swearing.

    "Get a clue", "get real" and "get a life" are phrases chosen to express emotional feelings, rather than well supported thoughts.

  • Deb
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:18 p.m.

    Just because the LDS church has taken a stand on what they beleive doesn't mean they are bigots or haters of the gay and lesbian world. If they feel that marriage between man and woman is a sacred thing, why shouldn't they take a stand? They can love PEOPE without agreeing with them. The country's definition has always been between male and female. Some beleive it should stay that way. That's a right.

  • JW Morrison
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    The Supreme Court interprets the state constitution and found it lacking so the people, within their rights, change by amendment, the state constitution. That is democracy.

    In time, the people will vote in favor of gay marriage because the further we get away from faith the more worldly we get. Ultimately, this country will fall to its knees and then watch out.

    The Judgement that will follow will surprise the people that think God condones this.

  • Laura
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:20 p.m.

    The majority in Massachusetts voted against gay marriage but guess who reinstated it?...Judges...
    How is it that these activist judges can overturn the majority vote?!

  • Grade school girl
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:21 p.m.

    What could actually lead a society to extinction? GET REAL....

  • LOVE
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:21 p.m.

    I come from a very devote Mormon family and I have a brother who is gay. Because myself and my family are in favor of Prop 8 and for Marriage being between a man and woman doesn't mean we love our brother any less. So to those of you who say Mormons are hateful towards gays...well my family and I disprove that theory. We love our brother dearly and always will. But because we love him doesn't mean we have to love his lifestyle or agree with it. And this is not a civil rights issue. I have never seen my brother discriminated against...last time I checked gays aren't required to sit at the back of the bus or denied access to restarants. This is a MORAL issue. Since when is it unlawful for a church to encourage its member to become active in issues. The church stated its stance but did not tell its members how to vote. I am guessing there were other churchs who encouraged their members to vote no on Prop 8. Whats the difference? There isn't any. Protest all you want but do not harass or vandalized our properties because of our beliefs.

  • Bert
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:22 p.m.

    Boy, there are a LOT of badly educated people here.

    We do NOT live in a democracy. The majority does not get to decide everything in this country.

    Turn off the TEVO and occasionally crack a book.

  • Lori Hansen
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:24 p.m.

    Be it known that the list of "financial contributors" is a matter of public record, and you will NOT find a dime from the LDS church. Prop 8 was approved by a democratic vote of the people--only a minority of which were LDS--some of whom contributed their own money--just like the opponents did. What HYPOCRITS to ask for DUE PROCESS and then not accept the outcome which was passed twice--and NOW are resorting to TERRORISM--my nieces were afraid to go to church in CA because of the threats to local members. Shame on the extremist gay protestors who threaten hatred and harm. No one should be threatened because they have an opposing view. 70% of the Black population voted YES on 8, as well as over 80% of the Hispanic pop.

  • Dave
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:26 p.m.

    Keep it up, gays. Let your bigotry and hatred come through. That will help the rest of us toss out any compassion we had for you and solidify our convictions regarding truth and the sanctity of marriage.

  • Bert
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:27 p.m.

    To Lets just get along:

    If my "hetero" nephew described me as "choosing" the gay lifestyle I'd be ashamed of him.

  • re: Tew
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:36 p.m.

    Every time there is a natural disaster, religious people love to attribute it to divine punishment for something or other. Ask Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson how well that goes over, because you sound just like them. That's embarrassing company to keep.

  • Those who have not been wronged!
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:37 p.m.

    Those who have not been wronged would have us believe, that they have. They are the hate mongers and the civil disobedient. They are the ones putting life, limb, livelihood, and property at risk of any who don't agree with them. They are the ones who claim that rights have been violated when they have not. The people have spoken in California and other places too. A choice to keep a fundamental institution in society; in place and sacred.

    It is common that the lesser portion of the population will choose that which is wrong. But most of the time the majority will choose what is right.

    The great tragedy is the fact that a minority who is not getting their way in a majoritarian government will recruit and exploit corrupt judges to forsake their role as guardians of the law and protectors of the minority into dictators issuing fiats: pressing minority values upon the mjority against their collective will.

    Propostition 8 was a victory for the majority to check the endless corruption of our laws by spineless judges and selfish minorities!

  • AZ Hetero.
    Nov. 15, 2008 8:52 p.m.

    I am so glad I'm not gay!! Go Mormons, Prop 8, and Utah!!

  • Take this Off
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:01 p.m.

    Get this issue out of the news. Thats what you usually do D-News. There are much bigger fish to fry than talk about this stupid subject and issue. Of all the real important things going on right now it seems this is #1 in Utah. Get rid of it and let it die. The majority of us want to talk about what affects our daily lives, and future. This is the problem I have the media, wanting to talk about small hometown issues.

  • Think
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:02 p.m.

    OK, so if everybody comes to Utah and helps to boycott all the gay films at Sundance, do you really believe that will teach Mormons a lesson they will never forget? Is this funny to anyone else?

  • WOW 100's protest
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:06 p.m.

    How is this news? I've got one, 100's go to church on Sunday, 100's get up a go to work every day, Who cares if 100's protest?

  • Sue
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:06 p.m.

    I find it very interesting that it's OK to malign and attack the LDS church and it's members...Mormons(not all LDS voted yes) were only a small fraction of the people that voted Yes on 8. It's not politically correct to protest against other religions or races(nor should it be!), but put down the Mormons...that's just fine! If I choose to donate money to a cause I have every right to do so(everyone does) without a witch hunt afterwards, without fear and coercion trailing me. It is not about hate! I don't understand how a reasonably intelligent person cannot understand the concept of loving the sinner and not the sin! Tolerance means living side by side peacefully despite differences, it does not mean to tolerate every behavior.

  • Bryce
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:07 p.m.

    Judging from what I've seen here, common courtesy has become disturbingly uncommon. Is it too much to ask that you treat others like thinking human beings, rather than some vast force hell-bent on destroying everything good?

    I'm a straight man, who is an uncompromising supporter of gay rights. I do believe that marriage ought to be a right granted to any two consenting adults who want to express a deep, lifelong commitment.

    I am not alone. Those who paint the gay rights movement as an active, perverted few forcing their will on all the good, decent people, need to just stop. Polling suggests that between 30 and 45% of Americans support same-sex marriage. But that fraction is much higher among young adults, and in time I believe that the idea of gay marriage will be greeted with a resounding yawn.

    Until then, I suppose the shouting will continue. But proponents should take heart: In 2000, a similar referendum in California was voted down by 60% of the population, not 52%. At that rate, a ballot initiative to repeal 8 could be successful in 2012.

    They really don't let people say much here, do they? 200 words? Ick.

  • WAKE UP
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:13 p.m.

    Far from showing that Californias Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair treatment.

  • Nancy
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:16 p.m.

    I agree with Scott. I think that Gays need to be reminded that Gods will is that marriage remain only between a man and a woman. Much like children who need their parents to teach them right from wrong or protect them from hurting themselves, I believe many of us depend on religion to teach us Gods ways; the Bible is the word of God and it has a great history of people who followed Gods commandments and those that have strayed and embraced the ways of the world. The outcome was usually not good for the latter (i.e. Sodom & Gomorrah, Genesis 19:24) Following Gods commandments is a recipe for a happier and more peaceful life. I think that the passage of Prop 8 not only has made it clear that the line been drawn in the sand but also that Gods commandments do not have an expiration date.

  • Confused
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:30 p.m.

    Somebody please help me understand. I've been watching the latest news regarding the passage of proposition 8. What I don't understand is that the Gay and Lesbian communities around the nation are rising up in what can be perceived as in-tolerant, hateful, destructive, selfish, disgraceful behavior towards supporters of proposition 8. Yet, during these so called "rallies" they call others bigots, hateful, lacking tolerance, and every other foul and hateful word. They refuse to believe or be tolerant of others beliefs. They call people like me a bigot because I believe in the sanctity of marraige, because I believe marraige is ordained of God, because I believe families are a fundamental foundation of society.
    Somebody please help me understand why my beliefs cannot be "tolerated" but I must "tolerate" the beliefs of others?

  • Concerned
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:31 p.m.

    Marriage is PRIVELEDGE not a RIGHT!!!! You are not guaranteed the right to marry in the Constitution. STOP TRYING TO RE-WRITE THE CONSTITUTION!!!!

    Accept what a MAJORITY has spoken and move on!!!!!!

  • First Dude
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:45 p.m.

    I was told many times in my youth that liberalism was more than an ideology, it was a form of mental Illness, i believe that now, more than I ever have in my life. you cannot reason with a liberal, no matter how hard you try. they all seem to have a one track mind. their way or the highway. so it,s useless to try to convince them that they are fighting a lost cause. they have lost two times at the polls, and it's much easier to play the blame game than to face the fact that the people have spoken out about their life style pertaining to same gender marriage,and that they had better settle for the other alternative, legal rights. one with the other. you wont get your way with temper tantrums

  • Look at the other side
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:50 p.m.

    If you look at the other side, millions of dollars were spent on the no on 8 campaign also In fact I believe a million was by Bruce Bastian right here in Utah, out of state funds came from all over from both sides, thats life, live with it.

  • Jimmy Z
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:55 p.m.

    jIMMY SAYS : tHE CHURCH IS THE BEST AND
    mAN BELONGS TO WOMAN IN A MARRIAGE....nO QUESTIONS
    ASKED

  • Phoebe
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:56 p.m.

    We shall overcome. And never never never ever give up.

  • So many ?????
    Nov. 15, 2008 9:57 p.m.

    Why doesn't anyone debate the real issue?

    Is Homosexuality right or wrong?

    Answer that one honestly and move on. 2% of the population does not make society, we all do by choosing what we tolerate. The moment we as a society give an inch they'll want it all. Don't believe me? Just look around and notice how much we have allowed to be "tolerated". This is not about rights. If something is wrong then there are no rights. This is just one of many issues that we let ruin our lives by the attitude of "live and let live". Religion is involved (as it should be)because it is a moral issue. If we are truely a christian nation we would not allow the sin but help the sinner. It seems that we want to do both. Tolerate the sin and sinner! Again I ask, is it right or wrong? Fight over that. Not about some so called "rights" that never were.

    Who are we? Good people doing nothing?

    Where are our Morals?

    It can not be both, YOU are either for HOMOSEXUALITY or YOU are not. No live and let live attitude. It does not work.

    This isn't Hate!

  • Erika Skougard
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:06 p.m.

    Deseret News: This statement in your article is misleading and irresponsible: "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued a statement Friday in response to recent demonstrations and in some cases vandalism at church buildings." You have implied that the vandalism to Church property that has been reported has taken place during demonstrations. This is inaccurate. Shame on you for twisting the truth like that. As we all know, this is an extraordinarily emotional issue; as an LDS-owned paper, I would think you'd go out of your way to demonstrate journalistic integrity and avoid slanted misleading statements like this.

  • Don McLean
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:11 p.m.

    There's a line in the hit song "American Pie" that I'm reminded of when I see the actions of the Gay and Lesbian protesters:

    "And I saw Satan laughing with delight ... "

  • Great examples
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:13 p.m.

    Let's cry like a bunch of babies until we get our way. The majority voted wrong because they didn't vote the way we wanted them to. If anybody has a view that is different than mine they are haters. Get a life people, you make yourselves look more idiotic every day.

  • MAYBELLINE
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:17 p.m.

    Dear me - what venom. I don't see discrimination at all. A gay may has every right to marry a woman just like a straight man has every right to marry a woman (please adjust for lesbians). I do believe the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Saints finds this issue very important. They are organized and expressed their opinion within the bounds of law. Those opposed to Proposition 8 had the same opportunity to organize and gather funds from the entire universe if possible. The political process played itself out with this issue.

    I surely don't want to give advice to the militant gay rights effort; but perhaps this age old advice might help:

    You attract more bees with honey - not vinegar.


  • It's simple.
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:20 p.m.

    Sodomy is wrong. This is an easy question.

  • Why should they give up?
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:21 p.m.

    Why should they give up? If Prop 8 had failed, the christian conservative right would have tried to get it banned again. No doubt about this. What if african americans had given up when the people spoke? Public opinion is changing and old bigoted people are dying out. Keep trying gay and lesbian community! I understand where you are coming from, and I hope that people will start to open their minds and their hearts. Love you!!

    -yes I am LDS and I am not happy with their involvement in this issue.

  • CougarKeith
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:25 p.m.

    Nobody is trying to "Take Away Rights". The Church has not said, "The Gay can't be Gay". It's a sin, and it and it's members, and God (See Scriptures) disdain Homosexual sex, but nobody is trying to "Take Rights Away". Marriage is a right between a man and a woman, in essense isn't the "Gay" community trying to strip the rights of the "Straight" community by taking away our right to be married as husband and wife? It would be like trying to put a Gay Guy in the Miss America Pageant, It doesn't work! IT JUST DOESN'T WORK! This is Satan working on the destruction of the USA, and the Dumbing Down of Societal Morals. Nothing more, and nothing less. The Gay Community are nothing more than pawns in an eternal war, and they are unfortunately on the losing side. I for one empathize with them, and feel sorry for them, and feel thier pain. I also know they are hard wired this way from something, but help is available once they get through their denial.

  • K
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:28 p.m.

    Here's what I don't get. Gays want Mormons to stop being what they claim "being discriminated against" when they're being the hypocrites and they're vandalizing church buildings, sending hate mail and warning members to "watch their backs". Who's discriminating now? Last I checked Mormons had just as much right to voice their opinions, and yet if someone doesn't agree w/ us we don't go vandalize their place of worship and send them death threats. It was more than the Mormon church who stood up to this proposition. If you wanted to be treated equal, then start treating everyone else equal and maybe then you'll find the problem lies in how you guys are treating others.

  • re: how ironic???
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:30 p.m.

    Eons?! Really, wow that's a long time

  • man cow
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:35 p.m.

    "Hundreds" of demonstrators., wow. Why is it when they demonstrate it is ok, but when other people put their agenda forward, it is pushing their views on everyone. Always the double standard.

  • re: just reward
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:35 p.m.

    So, the Mormons did all of this? What about the 52% of Californians who actually voted for proposition 8 over two weeks ago? What about the more than 60% of Californians who voted to define marriage between a man and a woman over 8 years ago? Why don't you mention the Catholic church, or the African American community? If you are going to place blame for all of your troubles at the feet of someone, atleast place the blame at the correct feet.

  • Don
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:41 p.m.

    Lets look at the facts! Proposition 8 passes legally and while the Gays protest and destroy property legally owned, the Mormons are helping to feed the hungry and care for the needy and those burned out in California! Having friends of both persausion I remind my friends who are Gay that the Mormons have suffered in this country worse than you could ever imagine, but yet they still reach out to others! Including those who are Gay! Hum, makes you wonder what is a rational arguement? Express your anger through the vote or the Nation splits then where will you be? Lastly not only Mormons voted on this issue! So did Baptists, Methodists, Jews, Anglos, Hispanics, African Americans and Asians? Amazing they are all minorities too who became the majority! Think about it!

  • tigerlily
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:47 p.m.

    everyone has the right to vote anyway they please. the church members are the ones who voted for it not the church itself. the church doesn't tell its members how to vote. they say be sure to vote. what is going on now isn't helping the gay cause one bit

  • tigerlily
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:49 p.m.

    Anonymous: well guess what. there is not way that the temple marriages can be stopped nor should they be.

  • Just one voice among...
    Nov. 15, 2008 10:49 p.m.

    I am glad that the ideals, morals and standards of the definition of marriage has been upheld. All this talk of rights comparisons and "what if" hetero- marriages were threatened is irrelevant..Might I remind you all of a story about Adam & Eve. God gave them the ability to marry. He chose to make man and woman to compliment and strengthen each other. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. That will never change. Marriage is a God given union.
    If you want to live by the worldly rules, that are constantly being changed to market evil to the world, then have your civil unions and be at peace. But when you play by God's rules, as some day we all will, the terms of marriage have been explicitly defined. Perspective please.

    This ruling in CA has nothing to do with the Mormon's, except that they were some of the tools to get the voice of the people heard. This isn't about bigotry or hate. This has to do with standing on the Lord's side and protecting the sanctity of marriage.."Choose you this day Whom you will serve..but as for me and my house we will serve the Lord."

  • re: Don
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:02 p.m.

    Well put Don, well put!!

  • Tuffy Parker
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:08 p.m.

    Can anyone envision Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, African Americans, Hispanics, etc out protesting and vandalizing if the vote had gone the other way?

  • Common Sense
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:12 p.m.

    Equal rights by definition means every man and woman has the exact same rights.
    The passing of Prop 8 did not grant anyone anything but equal rights.
    Every man in California has the same equal right to marry a woman.
    Every woman in California has the same equal right to marry a man.
    The limitation is that no man can marry another man and no woman can marry another woman.
    Well guess what? That limitation applies equally to me as a heterosexual man as it does to you as a homosexual man.
    Gays are not calling for equal rights. They are calling for special rights.
    And lets not even get into the argument about how marriage never was a right to begin with.
    I find it interesting that I have yet to see one opponent of prop 8 that posts in this forum back up any argument they have made with logic and reason. Probably because what they desire to shove down every ones throats is both illogical and unreasonable.

  • Tuffy Parker
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:15 p.m.

    If one believes in God, the pattern was established from the onset. If one does not believe in God or creationism, the pattern was established by nature. In either case, we're here (mankind at large) because of a man and a woman union and the unique role each plays in creating new life. IMO, marriage sanctifies that union and creates a heaven blessed or a natural family. To apply the term marriage to something other than that union, reduces or marginalizes the sanctity of that status.

    A gay union is not a marriage in the same sense that a heterosexual union is. It can't be by either God's definition or nature's.

  • Oh Brother!
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:22 p.m.

    If I read one more comment about separation of church and state I am going to puke. Shows the illiterate nature of our so called citizens who enjoy civil rights. Read the constitution and do some research into the reason for the concern over religion before you open your big mouths and make yourselves look like idiots. The founding fathers sought to PROTECT religion from the government, not the other way around. Remember why people came here to begin with? Go back to high school people.

  • Respect, Be Tolerant
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:24 p.m.

    The California Prop. 8 campaign manager said "It strikes me as quite ironic that a group of people who demand tolerance and who claim to be for civil rights are so willing to be intolerant and trample on other people's civil rights.".. I say "Amen" Brother

  • things that make me go hmmm
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:28 p.m.

    If you are a gay Christian, how does that work? If you profess a belief in the Bible how can you at the same time mock God by actively doing that which he has clearly condemned? It is true that no man can serve two masters and if anything this prop 8 fight has made that crystal clear, as gay Christians actively fight against the will of the God they profess to believe in.

  • Rules, Rights, Coice ???'s
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:32 p.m.

    It is the belief of the LDS that we were given
    "Free Agency". The ability to choose between good and evil, right and wrong. I know of no doctrine that allows us to make our own rules.

    "Rights" are what we as a society give to each other, they change as WE ALLOW them to be changed. That is what is going on here. Some want the rules to change. So votes have been held and overwelmingly the votes have been for good.(I know, Good is my opinion) Evil doesn't want to quit. NEVER, never, ever! Will we?

    It is said that "evil will be made to look good, and good to look evil". What are we letting happen to our society by our actions? (Or inaction)

    I don't hate my fellowman (or sister), I HATE to watch evil win. So I will voice my opposition to any evil perceived right as long there is a fight.

    I long for the type of attitude Captain Moroni had with the Title of liberty. Freedom and Peace come by action, take a stand and choose the right.

  • ks
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:37 p.m.

    Did I not understand right? Did not gay marrage not get voted down in 3 states or similer props? Did the people not speak? Why all the protests, it was soundly voted down, or is this a best of 3 vote? or 5 maybe?

  • me
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:44 p.m.

    SO the Mormon hating crowd is finally exposed and united in their goal to destroy the influence of all religion on society. No one cares. It doesn't change anything. I've been hearing it all my life. It just makes me stronger. Christ endured that same kind of skewed thinking and I'm glad to be on His side of the issue.

    You will separate church and state the day you learn to segregate the thoughts in human minds. Frankly, I do not seperate my belief that God exists from my belief that killing is bad. They are all just truths in my mind. People only try to segragate them when they want to diminish the value of one of the catagories. Sad really.

  • JimBob
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:44 p.m.

    time to switch topics. let's talk about the BYU vs. Utah showdown this coming Saturday at Rice-Eccles....outstanding game on tap.

  • So who donated to prop 8?
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:47 p.m.

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints called upon their members to do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman.

    Statistics are now available to show how successfully the LDS church members responded to this call. Google "mormonsfor8" for more information.

    To those of you who can't understand why the Mormon church has been singled out for their involvement with Proposition 8, the statistics are quite revealing. According to California state records, of all donations of $1000 or more to the proposition 8 campaign, almost 48% of those donations came from the members of one church.. the Mormon church.

  • Wade
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:48 p.m.

    The state has a legitimate interest in who can be married and who cannot be. It has been determined that marriage between a man and woman is the best way to achieve the purposes of the people as a whole. Marriage is not a right. If it were, people wouldn't have to pay for a marriage license and meet certain requirements. For similar reasons that people cannot marry their cousins or multiple people, it has been determined by 30 states whether by vote or state Constitution that it is in the best interest of the people to define marriage between man and woman. This is not to say that gays are being denied any rights because they haven't been. Marriage is not a civil right. Read Jeff Jacoby's editorial in the Boston Globe from last Wednesday for some real insight.

  • rvalens2
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:51 p.m.

    Gay marriage is coming to Utah.

    The Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution guarantees it.

    ...;nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; NOR DENY TO ANY PERSON WITHIN ITS JURISDICTION THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS.
    (emphasis added)

    14th Amendment to the Constitution, Section 1.

    What does this mean? It means that laws that apply to any one of us must apply to all.

    The argument is straightforward and simple.

    Marriage is not defined in the U.S. Constitution as being between a man and a woman; until it is, the law is clear. Gay marriages must be allowed. To do otherwise is UNEQUAL treatment under the laws of the land.

    Why the Gay community continues to waste its energy on marches, protest and half-measures is beyond me.

    A U.S. Supreme Court ruling on this would in one fell swoop end this constant bickering.

    Wise up Gay community!

  • Jim
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:52 p.m.

    You can vote on marriage between a husband and wife when the bible says that such an act is an abomination to GOD. Go live in Europe if you don't like a Christian based country.

  • Wade
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:54 p.m.

    Oh and one more thing, the mob/protest mentality is cowardly and shows no knowledge of the issues or any semblance of intelligence. It represents people that can have a 3 word slogan and yell and scream at other people without fear of retribution (kind of like the internet). Please try to know the facts. The LDS church did not put any money into this issue. It's members did. It's members are people and have every right to do so. If you think the government is going to eliminate the tax exempt status of religions that get involved in politics (all of them), you are insane. Churches across this country fulfill a great role that the government couldn't on its own. They save the government countless millions of dollars in volunteer work to help the poor, disaster relief, donations, and service work. There is truly a compelling interest to leave things as they are in this way just as there is a compelling interest to define marriage

  • To Stenar
    Nov. 15, 2008 11:54 p.m.

    Here in San Diego is was a about 300. Not Thousands

  • Landon
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:07 a.m.

    If anyone can show me where in the constitution, or any of the amendments, it guarantees anyone, gay or straight, the RIGHT to marry, I'll vote for Gay Marriage next time it comes around, and I'll even donate money to the cause.

  • Constitutional Amendment
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:10 a.m.

    We can no longer live in a Divided United States. I think we should have a Constitutional Convention and let the States Decide on a US Constitutional Amendment that states: "Only Marriages in the United States will be Between One Man and One Woman". 34 States would need to ratify such an amendment, and since 30 states already have such a statement, what would it take to get 4 more? Then it would BE Constitutional and not Subject to the Courts.

    Remember that Dred Scott and Jim Crow Separate but Equal were not Votes, but the opinions of the COURTS. Edmunds-Tucker was congressional legislation, not votes. History PROVES that the courts have forsaken rights, while the Vote of the people have protected them. Frankly, if we are to survive as a republic, keep the power in the hands of the people as stated by James Madison.

  • See you in 2012...
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:23 a.m.

    Marriage is not a "right" that was taken away Prop 8.

    Marriage is a privilege, it has ALWAYS been between a man and a woman and was NEVER between two persons of the same gender. It was created by God in the beginning. God also forbade homosexuality. He has not altered his decrees.

    Just because judges overstepped their authority and permitted gay marriage for a few months in California did not change these facts. Gay marriage did not become a right and homesexuality is still immoral, regardless of those judges' opinions.

    The gay community's anger over Prop 8 stems from your dashed hopes that calling civil unions marriages would make it appear that homosexuality is mainstream and no longer forbidden by God. Californians saw through your thinly-disguised scheme and defeated it again.

    Your anger at Mormons rises from your plan being thwarted by a religious coalition being courageous enough to stand up to your criticism, name-calling, vandalism and threats to defend morality and truth.

    Sorry about being better organized and winning twice. Please continue acting out, because it will show America your true colors and make winning next time even easier.

    Our sleeping giant is bigger than yours...

  • Educate yourselves
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:23 a.m.

    Don't mention gays being Christians in the same sentence because the bible clearly states that marriage is between man and woman. Merely believing in God is not sufficient enough whereas a true christian sill seek to know Doctrine or facts. Nothing is going to backfire on the church and no the church will NEVER allow gay marriage. You call it hate but that would just contradict the doctrine of the church. Just keep doing what your doing and soon the majority show up and reduce your numbers from minority to minute.

  • RE: Wade
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:24 a.m.

    "The LDS church did not put any money into this issue."

    hmmmmm.... actually, yes they did... $4,943.18

    And Mormon individual donations dwarf all of the other donations made from other churches.

  • Rights
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:27 a.m.

    Gays, polygamists, bigamist, and all other alternative unions deserve to be on the same playing field as everyone traditional family unions. Children deserve the diversity that comes with having a mom and a mom or a dad and a dad. Let the experiments happen.

  • Wade
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:30 a.m.

    Fair enough. Find one person who is going to go to the trouble of getting the church's tax exempt status to be removed over $4000. Do you have receipts to verify that or is it a number you came up with from a pro gay website? I have seen so many different numbers now that it is obvious they are all bogus. Mormon individuals can make whatever donations they want. Maybe your time would be better spent to figure out how Obama can spend $100 million on a campaign and follow that up with a promise of fiscal responsibility.

  • rvalens2
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:35 a.m.

    Re: Landon

    "If anyone can show me where in the constitution, or any of the amendments, it guarantees anyone, gay or straight, the RIGHT to marry, I'll vote for Gay Marriage next time it comes around, and I'll even donate money to the cause."

    Landon, please see my previous post.

    I guess you'll be voting FOR Gay marriage the next time it comes around.

    See ya at the voting booth.

  • Not Blind
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:58 a.m.

    The church was direct in encouraging if not REQUIRING its members to obey them and donate money to the cause, gathering 4 out of every 5 dollars supporting prop 8. On top of that, they ran robotic phone messages to California from Utah thus crossing the line between spiritual institution and political machine. This accountability is the reason the church is being targeted. The argument that church funds were not used is irrelevant when the church is who gave the direct orders.

  • Re: Re: Wade
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:22 a.m.

    Everyone knows that Mormons controlled the outcome of the Prop 8 election in CA, and thus all the protesting and attacks are justified...

    Let's do some math to see who the real threat to the future of humanity might be:

    You stated the LDS church donated $4934.18

    Approximately $74 million was spent on Prop 8.

    Logically, this means the meddling Mormon church swayed the election by contributing a whopping 0.00668% of the total contributions!

    I wonder what the Mormons were able to do with almost $5000 that had such a powerful effect on so many millions of Californians?

    That kind of power for so little money means that Bill Gates or Warren Buffet easily have enough money to control the minds of the the entire world...

    Yikes!!! Let's hope that they never figure out what the Mormons must already know.

  • RE: Erika Skougard
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:45 a.m.

    I read the article and did not think that the vandalism was coming from those demonstrating.

    One could "read into" was written. The Deseret News did not do anything wrong.

  • Fires in California
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:50 a.m.

    There are more serious things going on in Calif. this weekend than the protests. Many people are losing homes to the raging fires. Very sad!

  • Truce Week
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:00 a.m.

    Can we just have a truce on this for at least one week. I am tired of seeing this issue as the most commented. Let's focus on what is important this week-the BYU-Utah football game.

    I hope that the loser will not demand a recount, have a dangling chad, protest Proposition 2008 (what I am calling this game), write hate mail towards the other school, protest the Mormons if BYU wins, protest the jack-Mormons if Utah wins (couldn't resist being sarcastic there and no offense to those LDS or non-LDS at Utah and BYU), etc.

    I am going to be at the game with my friend. One of us will be decked out in BYU attire and the other in Utah attire. No, we are not getting married, nor did the thought ever cross our minds. We have to draw the line somewhere. But, we are civil to each other. Vote Yes on keeping Utah fans from marrying BYU fans! You never know where this atrocity could lead!

    Let's try to just enjoy each others differences and enjoy a great game this week. Can we please have a truce for at least 1 week? Go Cougs/Go Utes!

  • 12:24am RE:Wade
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:22 a.m.

    RE:WADE reminds us that "individual Mormons' donations (may) have dwarfed all other churches...".(?) Homosexuals (e.g. GLBT, NAMBLA, LAMDA, etc may have donated the most to "No on Prop 8". Should people in favor of Prop 8 start persecuting homosexuals? Burn things on their lawns (e.g. Clay Aiken albums)? Boycott Broadway shows? Stop watching Bravo? I wouldn't support that. Does the "No on 8" mob think that's where all this is headed? Do you really think the 40% of California that voted with you simply because they pitied you is going to honor your boycotts or tolerate your percsecution of honorable, upstanding citizens who are their neighbors? You're just turning them against you - by the thousands - reminding them of why they voted against you last time. You're also alerting many of them to the simple fact that they got duped by the California AG's word-games with the ballot measure and they "mis-cast" their ballot. They're watching the news and vowing not to make that mistake again.

    Bring on the rematch, baby. We know there'll be one. Next Vote: 70% to 30% in favor of confirming that lawful marriage is between one man and one woman.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:36 a.m.

    Everyone should have the right to marry whomever they want. This is a personal issue and a family issue. My right to marry the one I love has nothing to do with your opinions.

    "Civil government cannot let any group ride roughshod over others simply because their consciences tell them to do so."
    -- Robert H. Jackson

    "Censorship, like charity, should begin at home; but unlike charity, it should end there."
    -- Clare Booth Luce

    "You have not converted a man because you have silenced him."
    -- John Morley

    "Free societies...are societies in motion, and with motion comes tension, dissent, friction. Free people strike sparks, and those sparks are the best evidence of freedom's existence."
    -- Salman Rushdie

  • understanding
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:34 a.m.

    California voters have now twice stated by referendum that they do not want to grant government recognition of marriage to same-sex couples. Thats a pretty clear message that the people of California do not want a public policy that gives official recognition to same-sex couples, outside of partnership contracts.Id expect to see that on the ballot every two years from now on, but if its backers keep acting like lunatics, they can expect to lose by greater margins in the future.

  • gays are not nice
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:52 a.m.

    In Cali; The late local news showed scenes of several Hispanic females in tears outside the temple trying to remove the signs desecrating the walls and fences surrounding the temple. As these individuals who according to the news were not church members removed the hate-filled signs, the mob exploded and began beating the individuals to the ground,

  • will LDS be forced to marry gays
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:59 a.m.

    Both the Roman Catholic Church and the LDS Church took a stand, along with other Christian groups, to preserve the insitution of "marriage" as between 1 man and 1 woman. This passed by a majority vote. It seems that the in-your-face, 'bashing' response is geared to intimidate not just members but the viewing public into giving in, with the implication that whoever opposes them will be the next focus of their ire.
    Once same-sex marriage is 'legal', will the government then attempt to REQUIRE churches to marry same-sex couples, regardless of that church's moral opposition? There are already gay unions which have all the temporal benefits which "marriage" has from the state. Isn't this continual pushing because they essentially want the state to force the Churches to say homosexuality is "good", and "approved". No matter what the government does, I do not see that ever happening.

  • Mormons accept blame!!!
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:59 a.m.

    it was on the news in Utah that a Catholic Bishop who had been in Salt Lake previously had written to LDS President Monson to ask him to specifically ask members to consider giving their time to work on this moral issue. It's rare for the LDS Church to comment on any election process at all beyond "Be involved in your community, learn the issues and make your decisions a matter of prayer between you and the Lord". It may become even more necessary to work together in the future as lobbying groups attempt to legislate what ought to remain moral issues.

  • Intresting....HARRASSMENT???
    Nov. 16, 2008 4:05 a.m.

    Lorri L. Jean, chief executive of the Los Angeles Gay & Lesbian Center, told the LA Times that a postcard will be sent to the president of the Mormon Church for every $5 donated, condemning "the reprehensible role the Church of Latter-day Saints leadership played in denying all Californians equal rights under the law."

  • Mike from Valdosta, GA
    Nov. 16, 2008 4:07 a.m.

    They are just making a bigger deal about the LDS church than what it needs to be. It wasn't the church who made the vote. Yes they may have put money into the cause, and I most certaintly don't think that the LDS church paid people to vote for the prop. I think that it was the state of California as a whole that got the prop passed.

  • Wrong Protest Wrong Time
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:07 a.m.

    It is interesting that these protests are happening after everyone in California had voted on Proposition 8.

    Now that Proposition 8 failed, all the riots, the dirty letters, etc just goes to show that a loser is generally a sore loser. These protests should have been from the beginning about how it should have even be worthy of a vote by the American people. Why did they wait until after the vote to start their displays.

  • Wrong Protest Wrong Time #2
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:09 a.m.

    Wasn't able to fix my error. Proposition 8 passed, not failed. Sorry.

    But I am glad it passed. This is one thing I am grateful for that Obama was running. He brought out many many passionate voters.

  • Kansan
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:16 a.m.

    This has all gotten way out of hand. Why doesn't anyone realize that Mormons didn't pass Proposition 8? As Mormons only make up about 2 percent of the population in California, it's a mathematical impossibility! Additionally, not every Mormon voted in favor of the amendment.

    According to the L.A. Times, protesters are now focusing their anger on the black community as well as anyone else who voted in favor of the Proposition. Who are the bigots now? Yes, you have the right to be critical and criticism shouldn't involve epiteths. What all this amounts to is harrassment. I don't understand why a group so focused on tolerance and being accepted is now the one being so intolerable of other people's beliefs and lifestyles.

    Take it to the courts, not the streets!

  • Gettysburg??
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:35 a.m.

    People need to focus here. The issue at Gettysburg was about people being held as slaves. This was not their coice to be slaves. Gays and Lesbians have made the LIFESTYLE CHOICE and now want to try to justify that choice by forcing everyone to accept their ideas as normal. Don't try to compare salvery to bad choices.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:45 a.m.

    I keep hearing gays say stay out of our state. Last time I checked it was still my Country. I have a say what happens in this country. So, I and others are allowed to send money to whatever political stand we want. Just like you are. I also know for a fact that the gay movement received money from outside the state of California just like the people who voted yes for prop 8 received money. On another note, gays keep saying that the LDS churchs tax exempt status should be taken away. Well, I also know there our gay organizations that are tax exempt. Should theirs be taken away as well? They had a dog in the fight just like the LDS church did. They had an opinion, just like the LDS church did. Should their tax exempt status be taken away? Come on you guys. You only want what you want. You only see what you see. It works both ways.

  • Perversion Belongs in the Closet
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:27 a.m.

    There, I said it. It may be politically incorrect, to which I say, I'm not sorry. I don't mean ill-will towards people who may have same-sex attraction, but that is quite different from ramming your "in-your'face" trashing of traditional (centuries old) family values down the rest of our collective throats. Not to mention the poor children who are forced to be raised into these unnatural and unholy "marriages." No doubt, there are some gay people who are nuturing people in their own way, but the underlying lack of a mom and dad as God intended will only lead to more problems down the road for society.

  • Sleeping Giant
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:47 a.m.

    To you people who preach love and people's rights and then rough up a 70 year old woman with a cross using her right to free speech, and who try to indoctrinate children in the schools that being gay is "normal," and won't allow the same school to teach the other side, and who protest at religious sites of one group of people ,and there were other groups who helped pass prop 8.You protest against the Mormons who teach love and tolerance, who come to the aid of people of all faith, just because they feel this is a moral issue. I have many gay friends and coworkers, who are not in your face trying to get the same "rights" as married people. If you were in the majority we would be no more. You are going to push too far and your cause will be hurt. Societies have been brought down by this type of behavior. Get a life-contribute to the good of all. Keep your private affairs private.

  • Svoboda
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:49 a.m.

    It is a shame it has come to this.

    Goering once said that if you tell a lie often enough, it becomes the truth.

    Real marriage can only be between a man and woman.

    We could try an experiment. 50 gay/lesbian couples and 50 men/women couples. Put each group on an deserted island. Come back in 75 years and see which group looks the more inviting. Oops. One of the islands is still "deserted". I wonder why?

  • David
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:07 a.m.

    While Mormons may have donated much in the way of financial contributions, it was mostly Non-Mormons that voted Yes on Prop 8. So why target the Mormons especially with violence? I voted No this go round, I will vote yes next time.

  • Marriage
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:10 a.m.

    Gays are not being prohibited from marriage. Find an acceptable person of your opposite gender that is of adult age and capable of consenting and you too could be married.

  • Most selfish
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:18 a.m.

    You know when you see a child who throws tantrums and only thinks about "me, me, me" ? That child is immature and very selfish, never thinking about how his or her behavior affects anyone else and thinks the world revolves around him/her. Now look at the gay community. This is the most narcissistic, selfish group that ever existed. They want to world to revolve around them. They only think about themselves. Have you ever seen a gay group do anything that wasn't about themselves? Have you ever seen them do anything that benefitted anyone other than themselves?This is the latest in their selfish, look at me behavior. If everyone was like them the world would be a horrible place!

  • Skippy
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:21 a.m.

    lets move on to some other stories.

  • hundreds relevant?
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:31 a.m.

    Who cares if few hundred misguided people walked around? A few million could march at the word of the First Presidency.

  • bporter
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:41 a.m.

    There is no scientific evidence that people are born gay. In fact, all the evidence exists to say that people are born male and female. Science also tells us that the only way people can reproduce requires both a male and a female. It is physically impossible for two people of the same gender to concieve and give birth to a child. Therefore, being gay or lesbian is obviously not a natural thing, and is against all scientific evidence. I for one will continue to stand for the fact that marriage is only appropriate as God intended it, and that is between a man and a woman. I will never see it any other way. You can ram it down my throat and get some ultra liberal Californai Supremem Court to legalize gay marriage, but it will never be sanctioned in the eyes of God. May God have mercy on your poor, decieved souls.

  • Emma
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:42 a.m.

    The same people that voted FOR Obama voted FOR Prop 8. Only 2% of California is Mormon and not all Mormons voted for Prop 8. Even those Mormons that voted against prop 8 are still having their church targeted. So, the gays are judging all mormons the same and that is bigotry.

  • Non-Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:48 a.m.

    Anyone out there know if the Unitarian "Church" donated any money to DEFEAT Prop 8? Their stance is obvious - check it out on google. If so, where are all the "protests" about their religious involvement; where are all the protests about their "members" getting involved and spreading their CHURCH'S beliefs?

    I hope this garbage ignites conservatives. We had no representation in the last election. Years of sitting on our butts is what brought this garbage to the point where it is now - and "now" we either stop it or it runs right over us. They gay lobby could care less about anyone over 30; it is the minds of the young people they want. Just like Hitler wanted the youth; so to do the gays and their supporters.

    Let's all write to the manufacturers of "ED" products; the ones we see on TV. Tell them to include "same sex" couples in their ads. Let's see if they do it. I doubt they would; but if they do, perhaps seeing "that" (2 dudes going to the bedroom) will shock enough people into just what they are supporting.

  • Not a rights issue
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:50 a.m.


    It's not, it's a moral issue.

    Moral issue
    Moral issue
    Moral issue
    Moral issue

  • Common Sense
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:58 a.m.

    It's these exact same people protesting that their rights are being taken away that vote against my right to bear arms every chance they get because they think its 'best' for society.

    Anyway they spin this, the fact that is clear to the majority is that they will do or say anything to legitimize their inappropriate lifestyle.

  • Still Questions
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:59 a.m.

    There still is not a post from the supporters of Homosexuality that addresses the Real Issue!

    IS HOMOSEXUALITY RIGHT OR WRONG?

    Always the side step, my rights are violated, or "equal protection". My favorite whine is that "I should be tolerant" of their poor choice.

    Remember that we as a group set the standards by what is tolerated. Some of the posts try to say that a majority should give in to minorities for tolerance sake, Why? What is next? Do we continue to move down the scale of degeneracy until there is no right or wrong?

    Quit whining about nothing (which is what happening since you lost) and figure out what is right, and what is wrong.

  • Rich
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:59 a.m.

    It's "Gr8 to be Str8"!!!!!

  • RE; DEMOCRACY
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:06 a.m.

    YOU ALMOST SOUND LIKE YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR TALKING ABOUT.

  • Move Along
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:17 a.m.

    Nothing to see here, move along. Move along.

  • Look at the facts
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:32 a.m.

    A number of posters have tried show that it's the responsibility of judges to override the will of the people when necessary in an attempt to justify the protesters actions. Problem is 1) courts are only able to override the executive and legislative branches, not the will of the people and 2) their are no people being denied rights had by others.

    Even the US Supreme Court is subject to rulings that conform to the constitution, which is only in force because it was ratified by the voice of the people and it can be changed by the voice of the people (and it has been done 27 times). Two thirds of states now have bans on gay marriages, this would be enough for a new amendment if it were put to vote. Society would never trust it's laws to me made by four California judges. Instead we rely on them to ensure the laws that are passed by the Executive and Legislative branch are according to the voice of the people. The California court frequently seeks to subvert the will of the people because they disagree with it.

  • RPJ
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    Mankind may bravely say that there is no sin. But fornication, adultery and homosexuality are still sins. In the case of moral issues, majority or minority doesn't matter. Right is still right and wrong is still wrong. You can protest, scream, flail and even gnash your teeth. It will not change truth.

    We should not forget the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Lord told Abraham that He was going to destroy these wicked cities, mainly because of their sexual sins. But Abraham pled with the Lord not to destroy the cities because he would destroy the righteous with the wicked. The problem was, the only righteous people who could be found were Lot and his family.

    When the Lord sent holy men to visit Lot, he had to protect them from those of the city who wanted to "know them" (in other words, have sex with them). Lot and his family were led away and then the cities were destroyed.

    Sodom and Gomorrah is here and the residents are knocking on our doors. They are in our face with their demands. They want our pity.

    I hope there are still righteous people left to protect our civilization.

  • Re: Wade @ 12:24
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:45 a.m.

    Please tell me where you got your figures ($4,943.18) for what "the Church" donated. And if you got it off a pro-gay website, you'll have to document that for me as well (where THEY got it from.) I know my church and what you're saying is just not true.

  • Observer
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    The only hateful behaviour I have observed is that of the sore losers. I am straight and USED TO BE sympathetic to the same-sex marriage cause, but no more. This isn't about equality but about political power. It turns my stomach. I'm tired of being used.

  • Bill
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:00 a.m.

    Answer the following questions?
    Who is trying to change the definition of marrige?
    How can you take rights away rights from a group that is not a protected class?
    Who is protesting and blocking others freedoms that are a protected class ie religion!
    Who is using violet actions and calling others racist?
    Please show us were because someone disagrees with you and they are religious that they are evil and oh yes not allowed to express their opions because they are religious?

  • Chris
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:00 a.m.

    I gave my life to the church. I served in every position my Heavenly Father asked me to. I went on a mission, and did everything I could to be an upstanding member of the church. I tried so hard to overcome my attraction to the same sex. Countless amounts of therapy with church leaders, LDS counselors along with intense personal effort resulted in a complete understanding that this was truly not a choice. I wish that those that think this is a choice could have viewed and experienced the years of emotional pain, tears, deep reflection, and soul searching that were involved in this realization. I asked my heterosexual mother to visualize herself "choosing" to be attracted to women. She could not imagine it. I can assure you I did not choose my attraction. I am now with my best friend and soul mate who I love and admire. I have hopes and dreams for a beautiful life together just like my heterosexual siblings have with their spouses. Marriage provides many privileges and benefits that are real. They should be given to every equal child of God and citizen of this great land.

  • Patrick
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:02 a.m.

    As one of the organizers of the rally and vigil last night, I think it appropriate for me to clarify some things for people who were not there.

    1) We are anti-violence. I know the actions of less than a handful of individuals have caused damage to LDS structures. On the other side, I've seen the pain of families who have had their sons and daughters murdered for being gay. We condemn violence from either side.

    2) We're not Anti-LDS, we're Pro-Family. The reason the LDS is catching a lot of backfire is because for being 5% of Califonias population, they funded 77% of the Yes on 8 campaign. LGBT people are angry because their families are being attacked- and a disproportionate amount of the funding for these attacks has come from LDS hands.

    Both sides argue that their actions are motivated by a dedication to protect thier families. We're not trying to harm your family; just the opposite. Your families are beautiful. We believe our familes are beautiful and want to provide them with the same rights and protections.

    Seperate is not equal. We're Americans, and as Americans we value equality. As an American, please grant other Americans equality.

  • MetricWrench
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:09 a.m.

    Mobs marching against Mormons is not new. Mormons were not swayed to change their beliefs last time and they are not going to do so this time. The founder of the church was even killed by one of these mobs and it did not stop the Latter-day saint movement from prospering. No amount of ignorance or plain old bigotry from any detractor will change things.

  • Equality?
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:12 a.m.

    I believe that all people should be respected. What happens in one's home is one's business. However, trying to change historical laws to fit one's lifestyle borders on disrespect. Singling out and attacking one religion for it's stand on historical laws is blatant disrespect. Especially, when the Catholic and Protestant communities stood together with the LDS church.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    This is RIDICULOUS. I live in SoCal. One of our friends down here donated 100 bucks to the campaign through here photography business which she uses to support here two kids. Gay activists found her website and are encouraging all to boycott her business calling her shameful and a terrible person.

    I once felt empathy for the anti-8s but this is DISPICAPLE behavior on their part. Who's intolerant!?!?

  • j b gardner
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:29 a.m.

    Prop 8 is not about gay rights, but children's rights and our nation's rights, to have the basic family unit preserved.

  • Cactus_boy
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:32 a.m.

    John,
    "Gay marriage does nothing to threaten heterosexual marriage."
    Oh really? This very article being commented on mentioned two men who were once married to LDS women but are now "married" to each other. It certainly looks like gay "marriage" broke up their marriages. I have seen countless similar examples.

  • to Erika Skougard
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:43 a.m.

    Your statement is inaccurate. The has been vandalism of church buildings during demonstrations/protests, ie, the LA Temple. These people are calling for a right that isn't a right. Rights protect what we are not the lifestyles we engage in. Homosexuality is a lifestyle and while I believe there are those that have tendencies, I do not feel that anyone is made gay. Everyone has a choice. Once we begin to adjust the mores of society to accommodate the preferences of others, we lose our foundation and society becomes anarchy. Just as a parent doesn't allow a child to touch a hot stove because of understanding and love, we cannot allow gay marriage to be. It not because of hate but because of understanding and love. Stop throwing the tantrum and see things as they really are.

  • Disappointed
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:56 a.m.

    I have many friends--some LDS, some Catholic, some Gay, some Straight...

    I have no issue with people exercising their Constitutional right to protest peacefully...

    Nor exercising their constitutional right to vote however they want...

    I don't know about you but I have my own mind and can make my own decision...as I trust everyone is California does as well!!!

    BUT I have a BIG PROBLEM with people resorting to violence, intimidation, and vandalism...(Dr. King would also be discusted, guaranteed).

  • Stand Up & Be Counted
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:11 a.m.

    RE Richard G: Hmmm, blacks and women were loud and boisterous when it came to bigotry and inequality. Remember, to change the status quo, you must stand up and be heard. As a dedicated, gay father to a LDS daughter, I understand all about the definition of "morality." That's why I continue to stand up as an example to her. When a church, guided by what they deem as "truth," attempts to mandate that perspective far and wide, then we've arrived at an immoral and dangerous time in history. That's not the kind of governing or country I believe in.

  • Bob2
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:12 a.m.

    I live in So Cal, but I want to say thank you to every protester and to tell you that I've never been prouder to be from Salt Lake. Lines have been drawn on this issue and Salt Lake is ground zero. When gay marriage is as common as having a black president, I will be proud to say that the genesis was in my home town.

  • John
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:18 a.m.

    This is a lot of talk over an absurd issue. I have heard a lot of people against prop 8 who are well versed and argue eloquently about how they are being discriminated against. It is almost unfortunate that others argue against them, thereby dignifying what they have to say. What it all boils down to is that gays and lesbians are defending behavior that is completely disgusting and reprehensible on so many levels.

  • Seriously
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:19 a.m.

    Let it go. This has nothing to do with us in Utah. It was in CALIFORNIA! Did you get to vote on Proposition 8? I didn't. I'm sick of hearing about it. Stop reporting on it and the protestors will lose their interest because they won't be getting attention anymore. There are better ways to get what you want, protesting does absolutely NOTHING.

  • Rita
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:22 a.m.

    The big crowds at the protest's prove nothing.
    Many of the people are paid, to make it appear that more people are against it.
    Check it out.
    Google: Paid protesters.

  • ??????????
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:25 a.m.

    Why do my comments always get cut? Sodomy is the legal term and central to this topic.

  • What's not reported
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:27 a.m.

    I know a large number of gay men and women did not attend the rallies. Why? Because they just don't care about the issue. They already had other plans to work, to volunteer at charitable organizations, and to be a part of their larger community. These men and women know how to not isolate themselves and be neighborly.

    Also, attendance at many LDS churches increased last week. I noticed that at my ward, and I heard the same report from many friends. That could really mean that a sleeping giant has awakened, and it decided to go back to church.

  • Equal rights
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:35 a.m.

    What the LDS Church does with its doctrine is fine --- confined to their homes, churches, temples.

    When they support their members to vote on how gays live their lives is WRONG. Yes, they interfere --- because the legislation directly impacts how they lives their lives.

    And call marriage holy and sactimonious all you want. By your own logic, what do you call the hundreds of thousands that get married civilly every year at city halls?

    We will not take anything less than marriage.

    Rosa Parks called... and she, like us, refuse to sit on the back of the bus anymore by what you will give us --- domestic partnerships and civil unions. Separate but equal is inherently unequal.

    As far as vandalism on places of worship --- it is wrong, and most protests have been peaceful.

    Please understand that the LGBT community has lived with hate crimes, slurs, homophobia, discrimination for years --- some way before they came out.

    Any kind of hate is wrong.

    But we will win this, even if you do not like it.

  • To Things that make you go hmmmm
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:37 a.m.

    Haven't your church leaders taught you to be kinder and less judgmental towards your brothers and sisters? I know I am trying to follow that admonition.

  • nottyou
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    I'm glad I live in Riverton.

  • It's not a choice
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:43 a.m.

    Do you think if I had a choice I would have chosen:

    * harrassment
    * alientation from family, friends, co-workers, school
    * ridicule
    * less benefits at work
    * depression


    many, like me, have "tried" to go "straight," to no avail --- just breaking other people's hearts. It's not fair to the hetero community, and it's not fair to us.

  • What is wrong with marching?
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:47 a.m.

    What exactly is wrong with marching? --- as long as it is peaceful?

    Many would would to pour their millions, keep their voice secret, and then run away and hide, wanting to maintain their views and bigotry, yes, bigotry, secret and undisclosed.

    We do it out in the open --- we have our voices heard. It is also part of the democratic process.

  • This is our time
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:50 a.m.

    This is a right whose time has come.

    We have waited too long for this right --- keeping what the majority would give us --- but no more.

    We will petition the courts --- I know some of you don't like that, but sorry to break the news, courts are also part of the democratic process, else, why have them?

    We will march.

    We will speak with our neighbors, families, friends, co-workers --- not to spread "a lifestyle" - as some may call it, but to petition to have equal rights and protection under the law.

    I can't believe that in 2008, we are having to request equal rights.

  • Voice of Reason
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:52 a.m.

    Marriage has always been, is now, and always will be, a heterosexual institution by its very nature. It has never been a government endorsement of sexual pleasure or love - it has always been, is now and always will be a government endorsement of stable heterosexual relationships as the very core of society's continued existence.

    Gay activists' stunningly hateful, violent, and fundamentally evil response to their fair-and-square democratic loss will reap a whirlwind of traditional conservative reaction the likes of which they have never seen. They are truly awakening the sleeping giant.

    The line is drawn here. No further. This is a fight for our nation's very survival.

  • Bill
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:56 a.m.

    I would like to take a minute to thank the LDS Church. If they hadn't entered the Prop 8 fight and had their members working so feverishly to repeal it, yes, gay marriage would be legal in California now, but this great cross-country awakening of gay people and the straight people who support them would not have occurred.

    I was at the rally yesterday to support my gay sister and it was a very moving experience. (The media may have focused almost entirely on the anti-gay protesters, but that was a very small part of a very large event and most people there just ignored them.)

    And now other people, people who maybe never really thought about it before, and people who truly do believe in the separation of church and state, will begin to see what all this boils down to is that millions of their fellow citizens, fellow citizens who work and pay their taxes just like they do, still do not have the same rights as the majority does.

    And they will recognize that in the United States of America, where liberty and justice are supposed to be for ALL, that this is just not right.

  • Why, and when?
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:04 a.m.

    Why should heterosexuals have the right to tell gay people what they CAN and CANNOT do?

    When will gay people have the chance or opportunity to vote on the status, rights and privileges of OTHER PEOPLE'S marriages?

  • Standingup
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:12 a.m.

    Mr. Gardner,

    Please explain to me how this is about children's rights? A child deserves to be raised in a stable environment-- not in a two-year contract which is what "traditional" marriage has devolved to. Over half of the nations marriages end in divorce. Why would you want to deny a group of people that just want that 50/50 chance so that they can have thier OWN families? Contrary to some deranged comments, LGBT families are not out to get your children or destroy your marriage. They want to protect thier children, and protect thier families. No more children should suffer the fate of Lawrence King.

    Think about it, when you tell LGBT people they cannot marry--you are possibly denying your own flesh and blood the right to pursue their happiness. If two people love each other, you don't have to support it, or even condone it...but to stand in the way of it is inhuman.

  • Thanks Patrick
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:16 a.m.

    We very much appreciate your reasoned and passionate plea for equality and understanding. Unfortunately not all those from the LGBT share your level-headedness. Even though they carry signs that decry our supposed hatred and bigotry against them-it is they who hate and destroy in the name of tolerance.

    It is important for you and those that stand with you to understand that there is not one iota of hatred or bigotry emanating out of the LDS church or even from the overwhelming majority of its members.

    It is all a matter of pure semantics, as you already have civil unions recognized nationwide with all the attendant rights and privileges that regular hetero marriages have as well.

    But, know you are not satisfied wanting the rest of the world to totally accept you and your lifestyle by changing the very definition of marriage that has existed from the beginning of time.

    Just as we can not call not a horse a cow, neither can we call a civil union between two men or two women a marriage. You can live however you want and we will grant you all the same rights you crave-but we will not call it a marriage.

  • Sean J.
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:19 a.m.

    I find the backlash against the LDS church interesting. As has been mentioned, it seems the LDS church is being singled out because of its stand on preserving marriage. I think there is more to that than its support of Preposition 8. The gay and lesbian community is waging aware not on civil rights, but on the doctrine of ordained marriage. I feel the recent protests and push for "equal rights" is not so much a push for rights as it is a push for a change in Mormon values. It seems like in the gay and lesbian community, there is more of a desire for justification of their behavior rather than equal rights. The Church will not change its stand, and I suppose many in the gay and lesbian community will not as well. We might try the novel concept of agreeing to disagree and live civilly towards one another

  • Askyourselfwhy
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:21 a.m.

    There have been comments that gay's that have left heterosexual marriages are destroying marriage. Has anyone ever stopped to think that if they could have married the person they wanted to in the first place...those sham marriages would have never happened?

    How many suicides could be prevented if families didn't disown thier own children for being gay?

    How many families would be saved from tragedy if they could only have the same rights as thier neighbor.

    There is not a person in the world that does not know a gay person. They may not know who it is...but they know them. Oftentimes, they are your sister, your brother, your neighbor, your best friend. But they are afraid to tell you because they are afraid that in being true to themselves, they'll lose you. You don't have to agree with gays, you don't have to like them...but try to imagine how you would feel if you lost a loved one because someone couldn't look beyond hate. How would you feel if someone told you that a farm animal being raised for slaughter had more value than your family?

  • Bill
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:23 a.m.

    "Once same-sex marriage is 'legal', will the government then attempt to REQUIRE churches to marry same-sex couples, regardless of that church's moral opposition?"

    I've heard that people have been told that this will be the case but IT IS NOT AND NEVER will be.

    Think about it, no church is ever forced to marry people it doesn't want to marry. A friend of mine had a hard time getting married in the Catholic Church, even though he IS Catholic and so was his then fiance, (now his wife), because the maid of honor was a Wiccan and the priest at his parish refused to marry them because he objected to her religion.

    Churches have always been able to refuse to marry whoever they don't want to marry, even if it is one of their own members to another. This will not change.

  • BobP
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:24 a.m.

    I am active LDS and totally opposed to gay marriage. That said the appears to be a great deal of confusion over the difference between rights and priviledges.

    In the American system "anything not specifically forbidden is allowed."

    Gay marriage is specifically forbidden.

  • Dictionary Issue
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:28 a.m.

    This seems to be more of an issure for a dictionary.

    Marriage means the union between a man and a woman.

    Gay people are not happy with that. They want the word changed.

    Heterosexual means the sexual attraction between a man and a woman. Perhaps the gay community wants that word redefined also. After all isn't the fact that the word heterosexual is defined as it is take away gay's rights to be called heterosexuals.

    It seems to me Californians voted on keeping the meaning of the word marriage as it is traditionally.

    Should there be a different word for a man and a women who live together as a couple versus a man and a man living together as a couple? Moral issue? Semantics issue? Whatever it is the California population has spoken on it's position.

  • re SY&BC
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    Come on sir.

    The truth stands alone as the truth. And it not just the LDS church or the other faiths that joined with it in support of Prop 8, but God himself who mandated the definition of marriage.

    As a gay man, you probably have little or no use for any type of deity in your life, but that does not alter the fact that there is a loving God of us all that cares about you and your children.

    Flame away friend, but all the posturing in the world will change this basic fact of nature.

    Although you find it hard to stomach a country ruled by majority law, perhaps you might enjoy some totalitarian country that not only targets gays, but murders them on a regular basis. I have lived in such a nation and tell you that such places do exist. Not sure that you would like it there.

    You (and your partner) have every right that my wife and I do. So, please quit whining about that which you can not have.

    Truth is truth and it is not on your side.

  • Canadiandy
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:32 a.m.

    Actually John, Gay Marriage does threaten all marriages. Like someone printing exact replicas of our Canadian Dollar and then flooding them into the market, in which case my own bills are now devalued.

    Same-sex marriage here in Canada has clearly made marriage less valued socially. It has "Hallmarkized" (anyone can pick them up, for little investment, and they hold much less value than a traditional card) marriage here and as a result fewer people are getting married. The problem is that people are still having children at the same rate, but now these children have mothers with partners instead of mothers and fathers.

    The right of a child to have a mother and a father alone outweighs all of your arguments in favor of SSM.

  • Rich
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:36 a.m.

    My comments seam to be getting cut too.

    The gays have a basic right that they should use. They have the right to leave the country.

  • Not 51/49
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:39 a.m.

    Actually Carlos it was not 51/49 (never let a good rant get in the way of the truth). The results were 52.5% to 47.5%. That is a spread of 5%. And if just 5% of Californians took to the streets the way these 'fringers' have it would shut down the entire state.

    Up Democracy, down Mob Rule! America is not spelled A-N-A-R-C-H-Y.

  • Elton John is For Prop 8
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:47 a.m.

    Take some adivce from Elton John.....

    "Sir Elton John has come forward saying hes for Proposition 8, which bans gay marriages. He believes gay couples should stick to civil unions rather than getting married.

    Elton and his longtime partner David Furnish celebrated a civil union ceremony back in 2005. At the Elton John AIDS Foundation in NYC on Monday night, he said, Were not married. Lets get that right. We have a civil partnership. I dont want to be married. Im very happy with a civil partnership. If gay people want to get married, or get together, they should have a civil partnership. The word marriage, I think, puts a lot of people off. You get the same equal rights that we do when we have a civil partnership. Heterosexual people get married. We can have civil partnerships. "

    Article from Hollyscoop




  • Cats
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:57 a.m.

    Isaiah 5:20...Woe unto them that call evil good and good evil; that put darkness for light and light for darkness.

    How tragic that those who try to follow Christ and live the commandments of God are called bigoted and uneducated.

    How tragic that those who oppose the sanctity of marriage and family, as established by God for thousands of years, are considered enlightened.

    We must all stand together with faith. Those that be with us are greater than those that be against us. We will always stand for what is right no matter how much persection is heaped upon us. It is true.....they have awakened a sleeping giant.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:58 a.m.

    It's a civil rights issue. The right to marry was already defined as a fundamental civil right. I think that the LDS shouldn't have acted as a political action committee to take away minority groups civil rights. Everyone has the right to believe their religion but the gay people also have the right to believe that they were born that way. So, we are getting into differing belief systems neither of which should cancel out any civil rights from the other side. Any reasonable person should know that in a free society no one should lose civil rights for their beliefs. Not the Mormons and not the gays although, I do see a compelling reason why the government should start looking at the LDS tax exempt status's if it is really acting as a political organization.

  • Agree with Robert Oh
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:59 a.m.

    Yes, thank you to all 52% who voted for Prop. 8 and for the fundamentals in Utah whos supported it.

    And get over yourselves, you want to avoid the punches when you start messing with our lives --- your religion might be sacred, but guess what? so are own lives. So give a punch, take a punch back. Take that.

    You just made a closet gay come out and start moving things.

    If I didn't see it before, I see it now.

    AND...

    Is this the way half of Utah treats their gays on a regular basis? Their friends, sons, daughters, co-workers, I pity you people.

    And not only are not happy keeping their gays in misery in Utah. They want to spread the misery to two states over. Just pathetic.

  • Adam & Eve
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:03 p.m.

    Adam and Eve are turning over in their graves....

  • To: Equal Rights
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:10 p.m.

    To: Equal Rights - "Please understand that the LGBT community has lived with hate crimes, slurs, .....discrimination for years"

    Welcome to the club.

  • The Wakeup Call to Reason
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:11 p.m.

    Sorry to pop your bubble...but marriage has NOT always been a purely heterosexual institution... read something other than a eurocentric text book.

    As for government endorsement, go to Canada, Spain, Massachusetts... they recognize stable relationships between two consenting adults as a human right.

    As for the activists... you're taking less than 1% of the people rallying around the country and stereotyping the lot of them. That's sad. What if the gay population were to blame you personally for the murder of Matthew Shepard?

    Only in America would a person have to travel to Canada to be treated like an American.

  • Confused? Please Help?
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:15 p.m.

    I am confused, Approximately 5.4 million Californians voted on Prop 8. There are approx. 700,000 Mormons in California, half of which are under 18 and cannot vote. So lets just round up a bit and say 400,000 Californians voted yes on prop.8. Basically 5 million non Mormons voted yes on 8, so how is this the Church's fault? It is okay to show support for something, all the Church did is show support, period. You no on 8 people rallied to fight it too, and spent more than yes on 8 did. Had this gone the other way would you see Mormons taking to the streets and be saying hateful like you supporters? Doubt it. Defeat is always painful, you no on 8 supporter lost, fair and square. And the Mormon church is only one brick in that wall of 5 million voters. Please accept that. The state chose, not the Church.

  • Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:16 p.m.

    Enough said!!

  • Adam and Eve
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    if you believe in them, are the father and mother of all living people. That would include gay and lesbian progeny.

  • Eyes Rolling Noisily
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:40 p.m.

    Heterosexuals are being allowed to destroy same-sex marriage, not vice versa. They are the tyrants. Stop playing the victim.

  • To confused
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:45 p.m.

    Please get educated. Obviously you haven't read how the LDS Church encouraged Church members to donate money, time, and energy into Passing Prop. 8 --- based on lies.

    Hope you're not confused now. Glad I could help.

  • Liberals
    Nov. 16, 2008 12:56 p.m.

    It's kind of funny how liberals LOVE the constitutional right of free speech and opinions. Except when it works against one of their causes. Back atcha libbies!

  • Patrick
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:10 p.m.

    Thank you for your well-worded response.

    One thing I disagree with is when you say there "is not one iota of hatred or bigotry emanating out of the LDS church". Fact is, there is bigotry on both sides of the issue. Ultimately, we are both doing what we believe is best for our families--and have a hard time understanding the other side.

    As for semantics...I wouldn't mind having a civil union, if they were indeed recognized nationwide and by the federal government, which they are not. Also, civil unions do not currently provide all the rights and privileges that marriage current grants.

    The definition of marriage has changed over time and varies throughout cultures...it is no longer about ownership, thank everything holy.

    I don't mind if you choose not to call our lifelong bonds marriage. However I will continue to fight for and defend my right to the same rights and privileges afforded to my married heterosexual counterparts.

    The LDS church has said it's Pro-Family, not Anti-gay. We're not Anti-LDS, we're Pro-Family. Let's work together instead of against another. The church should help us repeal amendment 3 and pass LGBT friendly legislation that will protect all our families.

  • Bill
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:21 p.m.

    Btw, religious people do not have to sole right to the word "marriage/married/marry". My wife and I were raised in different religions, but practice neither. We chose not to be married in a church and to have a civil ceremony instead, but we were still issued a "marriage certificate". And no one has ever referred to us as "civil unioned" rather than "married".

    If ya'll still insist that you have the sole right to this word because you believe it should apply to only men and women, go ahead, try and trademark it for your sole use at the U.S. Patent and Trademark Office and see what happens.

  • Get Over It
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:43 p.m.

    To Prop 8 opponents - get over it, you lost. Its more than a little ironic that the very people who preach tolerance for the gay lifestyle seem utterly incapable of practicing that tolerance. Why don't you lead by example and show the same tolerance for opposing viewpoints that you expect the rest of us to exhibit...

  • Sleeping Giant
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:47 p.m.

    Yes, a sleeping giant has been awakened - those who oppose gay marriage. If those in the gay community advancing their agenda hadn't done so in such a confrontational manner, they might be further down the road than they are now. As it is, these actions by the gay community will serve only to strengthen and exapnd opposition to their agenda.

  • "The voice of the people"
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:51 p.m.

    The voice of the people have made abortion legal years ago.

    So LDS "get over it" The people have spoken.

    Oopps... We meant only when the people we agree with have spoken. Keep protesting those abortion clinics because they disagree with your religous beliefs.

    OH that is freedom of speech to harass people going inside beacuse they have different beliefs.

  • Another Giant
    Nov. 16, 2008 1:56 p.m.

    The comment has been made that a gay rights 'giant' has been awakened by the passage of Prop. 8 - for those who take this silver lining view, you should know that another giant has awakened, i.e., the majority who oppose gay marriage. The hatred and intolerance exhibited by the anti Prop. 8 protestors will, and have, served to strengthen and expand opposition to the gay agenda. Keep up the protests...

  • re: "Voice of the people" NOT!!
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:03 p.m.

    Are you really that uneducated or simply disengeneous? When is the last time you saw any LDS at abortion clinic protests? Let me answer for you never. Or only very, very rarely.

    You are confusing us with someone else. Let's stay on point please.

    It is not the LDS church (or any others) out there protesting and spewing hatred and venom-the very thing that you accuse us of.

    Go ahead and call evil good all you want-it doesn't change anything. Good is good and evil is evil and nothing will change no matter how often you repeat it to yourself.

  • Odd Bedfellows
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:07 p.m.

    "Local street preacher Lonnie Pursiful marched five city blocks with a small group of supporters from City Creek Park to the City-County Building, carrying anti-gay signs and wearing T-shirts with similar messages."

    Lonnie Pursiful is the arrogant street preacher that thought it was OK to yell at brides as they were getting pictures taken in front of the LDS temple on their wedding day that they were "whores of the Mormon Church." Funny how issues like this can make allies of enemies.

  • Jazz Fan
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:17 p.m.

    Typical Laker fans!

  • Rights have not changed
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:23 p.m.

    California law gives registered domestic partners the same rights as a married couple and former domestic partners the same rights as former spouses. No rights would have been changed with the passing of proposition 8. The federal defense of marriage act passed in 1999 says same sex marriages are specifically not provided the same rights as a marriage between a man and a women.

    The only thing lost was the ability to be married in CA and be able to challenge the federal law in the liberal 9th circuit.

  • Gay Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:24 p.m.

    Go to church on Sunday and do the following:

    1) Count the jokes and references demeaning blacks
    2) Count the jokes and references demeaning Jews
    3) Count the jokes and references demeaning Catholics
    4) Count the jokes and references demeaning the disabled
    5) Count the jokes and references demeaning satanists
    6) Count the jokes and references demeaning gays

    Nine chances out of ten, you wont hear jokes and demeaning references regarding anything BUT gays. I do this activity each time I attend a three-hour block.

    Shame on the Priesthood leadership for allowing such behavior. Now tell me that there is no bigotry coming from Mormons.

    When UT has domestic partnership laws and civil unions, then they can say they are protecting marriage...

  • ls
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:32 p.m.

    Psst. when people attack the Mormon church...fact: more people end up joining. Bring it on.

  • Re: Gay Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:45 p.m.

    FYI-
    More mormons in the U.S. live outside Utah than inside Utah. In case your wondering more LDS live outside the U.S. than inside the U.S.

    # of jokes I heard today regarding your list, ZERO!

  • commenSense
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:49 p.m.

    it's over. deal with it. should have done the demonstrations before the vote. move on with life losers

  • Carl
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:51 p.m.

    GLBT group would never looked up or quoted Roman Chapter 1 in any of those versions of the Bible in whole. This scripture which was applied to Romans does equally applied to present time gays and lesbians who are protesting against the traditional marriages. I would like to ask them to refrain from protesting and get on life with their defeat in dignity.

  • ks
    Nov. 16, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    I live in Salt Lake and am not Mormon. Why the attacks on the church, they only have a stand as the rest of us and other religions do. To blame this only on the church is rediculous. The PEOPLE spoke by voting,these protests are not going to change anybodies mind on this issue. Where was all the support for gay marrage when the vote took place?

  • Equality for all.
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:07 p.m.

    Even if your version of God thinks otherwise.

  • They are all hypocrites
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:09 p.m.

    If the LDS church was pro-gay marriage not one of these phonies would whine about the "separation of church and state."

    Gay marriage is wrong. The LDS church is right. And the phony protesters are hypocrites.

  • EM
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:13 p.m.

    As I read these comment for and against I'm amused at the language and the lack of correct spelling. People get a life and move on. Let people live their lives as they see fit; their reward will come in way or another.

  • Me
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:14 p.m.

    If I'm a bisexual, is it my civil right to be married simultaneously to both a man and a woman?

  • It's like this
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:24 p.m.

    Standards and Principals do not equal "hate".

    The lds try and stand for productive things like marriage, families, welfare for the poor, etc. and try to avoid smoking, the erosion of families, etc.

    They have a right to have an opinion, right? They can also spread their opinion in a free market democracy, right?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:27 p.m.

    LDS=Hatred and I hope the IRS changes your tax status.

  • MamaFirst
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:36 p.m.

    TO SanDiegoD:

    Well, all I can say is "tit for tat", and all of you liberals in California are a bunch of ridiculous hypocrites!

    You ask why we "came into a state that is not yours, and poured millions of dollars into stripping the civil rights away from a minority group on a ballot issue that was not in your state and therefore was none of your business."

    Well, in case you were asleep, two years ago the CALIFORNIA Teacher's Union came into UTAH and gave a lot of money and support to fight against UTAH'S ballot initiative for school vouchers. If you want US to stay out of your state, then perhaps you should follow your own advice and STAY OUT OF OURS.

  • To RE: Gay Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:52 p.m.

    You didn't listen close enough. Since I started my observations, every 3-hour block I have attended (in multiple states, not just UT and ID) has had cruel comments and jokes made about gay people. On average, there are at least five demeaning comments about gays. The majority of these don't start with 'A gay man walks into a bar...'

    Granted, it may not happen in Relief Society or Primary, but it happens excessively in Priesthood meeting and occasionally slips into Sacrament Meeting. Most heavily in college wards, but family wards are also offenders.

    I found it disheartening when I was trying to do all I could to fight my gay feelings that priesthood leaders mocked as much as they did.

    After speaking with the Bishop and Stake President (both of whom were guilty), they both apologized and said they didn't realize how much they were making fun of a serious situation and how alienating that could be. Later that year, they talked about my comments in both Sacrament meeting and at Stake Preisthood meeting.

    It happens all the time. Listen carefully. I'll come to your ward-and-count-if-you-want.

    This is just one reason why many gay people feel that church-goers are hypocrites.

  • Civil Right???
    Nov. 16, 2008 3:57 p.m.

    Marriage is not a right. Marriage is traditionally a religious institution that societies have decided to give a privileged status to for a number of reasons (social stability, family support structures, etc..).
    The Prop 8 vote did not take away any rights. It merely memorializes in a state constitution that the privileged status of marriage should stay between a man and a woman.
    Enough with the civil rights talk. No one's rights were violated. California voters decided to limit recognition of an elevated institution, "marriage", to that between a man and a wife- as has been recognized for thousands of years in almost all cultures.

  • Sam
    Nov. 16, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    So much for freedom of expression, we used that "freedom" at the polls, and we did it without bullets, spray paint, and name calling, or attacking anelderly lady carring a cross. We believe that marriage should be between one woman and one man. So does God.

  • The Farm
    Nov. 16, 2008 4:23 p.m.

    The headline ought to read, "Millions stay at home and support traditional marriage--man to woman."

  • carlo
    Nov. 16, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    Hatred? It seems like everywhere I looked, it's the gay and lesbian community who is showing hatred here. They are loud and boisterous and trying to shove their lifestyle in people's faces. It's not a political issue, it is a moral issue and the religious community has every right to express it's view and doing it in a civilize and peaceful way
    I Agree.

  • Wow! Re: Disgusted
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:01 p.m.

    THe GLBT is right. Everyone, including Mormons, should have voted against Prop 8 even if it went against everything they believe. WHatever!

    You talk about LDS members being hateful, yet who is vandalizing buildings? Who is blacklisting people for their opinions?

    Hey Disgusted, let's think about this for a second. Why do you think Gay Marriage has to be voted on and straight marriages do not? Perhaps because gay and lesbian acts are not natural.

  • Jules
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:08 p.m.

    You don't see those of us who voted for McCain out in the streets, intimidating people, and blocking freeways, do you? Why can't you accept democracy? Why vote if your going to be so INTOLERANT of the outcome.

  • Samurai
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:12 p.m.

    Hey! You guys ! Just Drop it!! Prop 8 passed already!
    Just forget and drop it and move on you life!

    Don't waste your time by damaging the Worship place!
    Just remember all the Christians are right to believe what they want to believe. Respect that!

    We don't demonstrate because Obama won!! WE ELECTED SO Prop 8 has passed and America spoke it!
    Drop it ASAP, this is the last day and Christ will come soon! What a people who forces others to do what they do that's WRONG!!

  • To all anti-8 Californians:
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:14 p.m.

    I'm a pro-8 person, but you are welcomed in my state of Utah, anytime. We regular Utahns are not as disagreeable as some of you evidently think we are. Please come and enjoy our hospitality.
    A family from France, with whom we traded houses for a month last summer, (who also visited California) said they were pleasantly surprised that people in the United States were much nicer than their press would have them believe.

  • re Gay Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:48 p.m.

    I have been an active member of the LDS church for almost fifty years and have attended Church all over the world. I have never once heard a joke or comment demeaning gays, blacks, Jews etc. I have heard numerous times that we must show love to all of God's children and never mistreat them. You need to get your hearing checked or have a serious mental health evaluation as to why you are hearing things that aren't being said.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:48 p.m.

    Mormons are 0.28 percent of the world. Gays are about 3 percent. The bible was written by humans.

  • Aaron
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:54 p.m.

    How is it that you can demand that gays and lesbians just lie down and take it? You came into a different state expressly for the purpose of stealing the rights of a specific group of people and you try and claim you're the victim? You say separate but equal (domestic partners) - haven't we gone through this already?

    Do you tell African American that, while civil rights are great, their movements were intolerant because they didn't "respect" the rights of a majority oppressing them? Would you tell them isn't the back of the bus good enough, I mean, it got you where you needed to go, right? Do you tell them that separate drinking fountains are fine - after all, you still got water from them...

    Separate but equal is NOT equal.

    Gays and lesbians have a right to protest - read the constitution. It's called the right to "petition the government for redress of grievances". Let's not forget the right of free assembly.

    Reason will win out, logic shall make itself know, and freedom and equality will soon arrive; just as slavery was abolished, just as women gained the right of the vote. They will have rights!

  • another to Gay Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:56 p.m.

    With numerous gay friends, my antennas are always tuned in for gay references at work, church, and elsewhere. While frequent in the workplace, I can honestly say that in over forty-five years of on-going active attendance in LDS meetings all over the world, I have never heard one gay joke, although I have had a stake president that several times encouraged love and support for a specific young man that was 'suffering' from SSA.

    Never have heard a gay joke in sacrament meeting or in an elders quorum or high priest group meeting in my adulthood. Even during visits to wards in the Bay Area

    Quit exaggerating your experiences at our expense. No doubt you have heard a few over the years as you have looked to be offended. Perhaps you are a mind reader and can discern what people are thinking about you.

    In all my experiences growing up in Texas and Oklahoma and subsequently traveling around the world on business many times, I have never met a less bigoted people than LDS. Most are kind and genuinely loving to people like yourself.

    On the other hand-if you want to feel ostracized, please visit Russia sometime-homophobes everywhere.

  • Becki
    Nov. 16, 2008 5:59 p.m.

    How about basic fairness? Married spouses get half of their spouse's social security at retirement? Gays and lesbians cannot go to a lawyer and make it so for them? Are all of you who are sure you have a direct line to god working to make social security fair? If so, I haven't heard it. Also, don't be surprised that people are protesting your church; what on earth did you think would happen? "OK, you poured money into my state to take away right from me, I'm fine with it" . Protest is part of our democracy' history. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen. How would you like gay people to act, so they are not "throwing their lifestyles in peoples' faces?

  • Wallyworld
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:01 p.m.

    Why don't these protester's march in the predominantly black and hispanic neighborhoods or in front of Catholic or Protestant churches???
    They also overwhemingly supported and voted for prop.8. It's because they don't have the stones..I guess the LDS Church is an easier target. Try spray painting a black church and the Feds will nail you for a hate crime.

  • Laura
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    I find it sickening that the gay community has websites posting information about the Prop 8 financial contributors, the amount of money they gave, and their places of employment. What a sick way to harass people who were donating to a worthy cause!!
    Voting YES on 8 was not anti-gay. It was to keep the sanctity of marriage between man and woman.

  • Millions?????????
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:03 p.m.

    Wow, I had no idea my church had millions to waste on convincing people to vote differently than they wanted to, instead of like building temples, church buildings, humanitary projects, etc. Hmmmm. I realize there's a lot of tithing being paid, but that money goes to better things than what you claim it was used for.

  • bporter
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:15 p.m.

    I am an active member of the Mormon Church who works outside of the USA. I do not get to attend church with my fellow saints, nor attend general conference. Yesterday as part of my personal Sunday worhsip, I was watching the Sunday morning session of the last General Conference from October. I listened to a talk by Elder Robert D. Hales, and I was quite struck by his comments about how we should treat each other, especially those who are not of our faith. Those of you who are LDS and are posting here, I would highly encourage you to read or watch that talk before you make any further comments. I am guilty of making some rather ugly comments to our gay and lesbian brothers and sister, for which I aplogize and will have to repent. My morals and ideals significantly difffer from yours, but that in no way gives me the right to say mean or ugly or hateful things to you. We are all children of a Heavenly Father who loves us all. I will still fight to defend my beleifs, but I will find a way to do it in a less demeaning fashion.

  • cesqy
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:28 p.m.

    Throughout human history, the best way to raise children has and will remain marriage. This isn't a civil rights issue, its human survival and deserves meritorious treatment under the law.

  • Traditional Guy
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:53 p.m.

    I'm not gay but I, my wife and children attended the rally in support of gay rights.

    I was raised in the same ugly atmosphere toward homosexuality as most christians. I didn't know people who were outwardly gay until 15 years ago and it's been my pleasure to make friends of some. I have to say that as a whole, they are some of the kindest and most understanding human beings I have met. As far as living the words of Christ go (and Christ is never recorded once in his life on earth saying homosexuality is evil or wrong), I find the gay people that I have met to be much more Christian in practice than most Christians. They don't hate people for being hetero, they don't try to convert people to their way, most simply want to be accepted for who they are. And they want the same rights as the rest of America gets.

    The gays at the rally weren't hateful, mean, ugly. They were more than civil and all smiles for the most part. The uglier people there were the Christians rallying against them. It was an honor to be there. I was touched.

  • Bill
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    If women had meekly accepted their lot in life and had not taken to the streets and protested and caused a general uproar it would have taken them a lot longer to win the vote.

    If African Americans had not taken to the streets and marched and fought for their civil liberties it would have taken them a lot longer to achieve as well.

    I would wager that there are a whole lot of people in some states today which would try and vote to reverse both those things if voting on revoking civil liberties was allowed. Oh. Wait a minute. That's what the citizens of California just did when they voted yes on Prop 8. They voted to revoke a minority group's rights.

    Lawsuits have already been filed. Prop 8 will eventually be overturned by the California Supreme Court as an unconstitutional infringement on people's fundamental rights.

    In a Democracy, a majority of bigots is NOT supposed to rule when it comes to equal rights for a minority of it's citizens.



  • Re: Gay Mormon
    Nov. 16, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    Another Gay LDS man here...

    I second the sentiment about "Gay Mormon" above.

    When I have visited several wards --- there are plenty of jokes, particularly in Priesthood meetings, about people unlike their own...

    oh, shall we say ---

    * not affiliated with right-wing politics --- liberals and Democrats are often the butt of jokes at those meetings. Particularly coming from a church which in doctrine tries to stay itself away from "politicking"
    * gays ---

    To those you are taught to extend love and compassion, you make jokes at their expense.

    shame, shame, shame...

    you know it's true. So stop it.

  • donaldd
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:04 p.m.

    Pain is trying to explain to an 8 and a 10 year old what "gay marriage" means. Confusion in their eyes and questions. Sorry to ruin their innocense. I can't imagine how confused the grade-school children are in MA. Sad day.

  • donaldd
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:16 p.m.

    I don't remember ever hearing an off color joke about gays while at church.

  • to Chris 9am
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:21 p.m.

    I have given my life to the Church. I have accepted every calling given to me. I served a fulltime mission in a foreign country that was extrememly difficult. Through the years, I have struggled to find a wife. I've done the best I can and this challenge hasn't been taken from me, yet. However, I know how Heavenly Father feels about immorality and the consequences and destruction that will come to those who practice it. Therefore, I choose not to indulge in a sexual relationship until it has been sanctified by God, to further His plan for His children. You have that same choice.

  • ToDonaldd
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:36 p.m.

    "Sometimes men love men and women love women and they want to share their lives with each other."

    Gee, that didn't hurt a bit.

  • MJB
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:37 p.m.

    Gays and their sympathizers are acting like the naked king who strutted around showing his new robe that didn't really exist. The 'civil rights' they claim to be deprived of are just a delusional mental fabrication reflecting their rationalization of being able to have what ever they want.

    In simple terms it's called acting like a bratty two year old who wants another kid's toy that is not theirs.

    Sorry gays but marriage isn't a right. It is an institution created by religions thousands of years ago. Religions toy...... not yours.

  • Sneaky Jimmy
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:39 p.m.

    to donalld:

    Pain is hearing the hatred spewing from people like you about the "life style choice" that SSA people supposedly make. Most 8 & 10 year old kids will think that if 2 people love each other they should be together. What say ye?

  • Laura
    Nov. 16, 2008 7:41 p.m.

    I've noticed that most of these protestors are from the younger generation. They are victims of liberal media propaganda that has taught them NOT to be God-fearing. When will they be compelled to humility?

  • DavidE
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:01 p.m.

    Marriage is a religious issue, not a civil one. Homosexuality is such a serious sin that two cities were destroyed by God to get rid of it.
    The Mormon church was not the only church that was against Prop 8 and went public against it. Many others did too.
    What is marriage should be decided by the churches, not the courts. Since the gays cannot win in the churches they have fled to the courts.
    For all I care a person can "marry" a fish. But that doesn't make it a marriage.
    Marriage must be recognized by God to be a marriage and God never has recognized same sex relationships.

  • Gay comments at church
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:10 p.m.

    What church are you guy going to? I am on the high counsel and visit many Wards (CA). Never have I EVER heard a negative comment regarding gays. Our Stake & Ward leaders would not tolerate it for a second. The gay community is so far off on their accusations. You are biting the hand of the most compassionate group there is!

  • Honoring marriage
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:25 p.m.

    Am I the only one that finds it ironic that 2 guys that made very serious marital vows and then openly broke those vows to satiate other desires are arguing for their right to marry?

  • bam0612
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:26 p.m.

    i think it's interesting that according to the secy of state office in california, 75% of the people who voted FOR prop 8 were BLACK. why isn't anyone protesting and vandalizing their homes and businesses.

    and for the math.... there are only about 400,000 lds members in california. 5 MILLION people voted for it. yup, i see where that would lead me to target the lds church. makes sense somewhere in some universe.

  • What?
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:39 p.m.

    Let us be clear. Worship is to be respected. Prayer is to be respect. Once an organized church sets out to be a political action committee they have to understand that they can be critized, debated, called names the whole bit. My suggestion is, do not set your self up as a instutition of "faith" when actually you behaved as a political action committee. The church holds some responsiblity for the division. If the "word, the truth, and the light" would take some of the responsibility for this divide, they could begin actual healing. You can not cloak yourself "faith" while engaging politics, and then say it is inappropriate to critize a person of faith, when really you are just another politician.

  • practice what you preach
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:50 p.m.

    Millions of people other than mormons voted for Prop 8. The gay community is targeting the LDS church with their hatred, just what they asked not to have happen to them. Funny how you throw your "positions" away when it doesn't benefit you.

  • America be Warned
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:53 p.m.

    Most of America doesn't support homosexual marriage. Most don't care about the rallies happening across the country. Once it passes (it will eventually pass), other issues will come up and our constitution will be hanging on by a thread. Gay marriage is wrong. Hundreds of millions will start home schooling our children before we allow teachers to teach that gay and lesbian marriage is ok.

  • anonymous
    Nov. 16, 2008 8:55 p.m.

    To Gay Mormon 2:24...I have gone to church every week for 39 years and not ONCE have I EVER heard a joke about gay people, or any inappropriate joke. I wonder if you are making that up. In fact, my husband and I were talking just today about how even with all this "spewing" that is going on towards the LDS church, it hasn't even been mentioned over the pulpit. We don't bash anyone, not any person, group or religion. We focus on our beliefs only. I have to say that I am really tired of hearing about how hateful and bigoted we are. What the glbt community doesn't understand is this is OUR RELIGIOUS BELIEF. Has someone let God know lately that He is a bigot?They are His rules, we are just following them. We fear God more than man. You don't understand, WE DON'T HATE YOU. You just can't understand how we could vote against you, but not hate you and not be "bigoted". The bottom line is we really do believe we will have to answer for what we do here, and we have to stand for what we believe and have learned from the Bible.

  • Darrell
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:07 p.m.

    The so-called gays are proving to one and all who the real intolerant haters really are!

  • Gay comments at Church....not
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:12 p.m.

    Hey look at me I can type multiple emails pretending to be different people claiming that I hear gay jokes all the time at Church even by my Bishop and Stake President... Get real. The Church itself does not condone actions like this, and I guarantee that this does not happen with regularity, and if anyone did and was heard, they would be disciplined. Sorry, but the idea that because I said it in a post on the Deseret News means it is true is ridiculous. Rumor and innuendo have no place in media, even if that media is a comment board.

  • LDS in California
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:20 p.m.

    I live in the Bay area and have never, ever heard a single derotagory comment about gays at Church. We even had a gay man in our ward who was very much beloved. Actually, he wasn't gay. He did struggle with same sex attraction, but chose to follow God's laws concerning that type of behavior. I was very sad when he moved away. He used to frequently perform at ward and Stake functions because he was very talented. I suspect he would support prop 8 because of what it stands for and I've heard him say out loud that he eargerly awaits the day when all will be made right. He was good friends with some of the single sisters in our ward, he wasn't any lonlier than they were. There is room for everyone.

  • Mike
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:31 p.m.

    Could everybody please stop saying that gays seeking equalitable servitude of the law is nothing more than gays seeking a justification of their lifestyle??? It is incredibly short-sighted and ultimately flawed reasoning. Besides it is the religious community which felt the need to constitutionally define marriage--does that not equally qualify as seeking justification or sanction for their sense of piety?

    Also the US is a republic not a democracy--meaning simply that the popular vote is not enough. If the vote of the majority seeks to deny the rights of the minority it is the role of the judicial to overturn the vote. As much as people would like to believe that a "majority" vote is the height of government, we have to realize that the very intent of our constitution is violated when a majority seeks to vote on the rights of the minority.

    Marriage itself may not explicitly be a civil right, however, equitable servitude of the law is an unalienable right. If we still believe that all men are created equal, then marriage as a civically reconized institution must be for all. These amendments shouldn't stand. If we destroy our constitution in this way, everybody's rights are jeopardized.

  • Awesome
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:38 p.m.

    Thanks for all the free advertizing for our church. This is going to be a boost to our missionary effort. People will know that we are for freedom of speech, democracy, God given rights, morality, and traditional marriage.

    They are going to look at the losers who oppose our church and decide they don't want to be like the pro same sex marriage side.

    You have all the God given rights that I have. You can marry someone of the opposite sex. Your hateful lies about our church and homosexuality are easily exposed. Same sex marriage is not normal. It is against nature, biology, and psychology. It is bad for children and society.

    Your hateful attacks on our church are just bringing more people to our side against same sex marriage. You have stolen our property, vandalized our temple, beat up our supporters, and used profanity and vulgarity against us.

    You won't accept democracy and the will of the people. You try to cut off all free speech against your perverted ways.

    We will not crumble in our resolve against same sex marriage. You have woken up a sleeping giant that will continue to battle in this war.

  • Guy from California
    Nov. 16, 2008 9:47 p.m.

    The only right that prop 8 removed was to call gay union 'marriage'. Gay couples already have all the rights of married people in California!

    But Prop 8 upheld the rights of parents and children to prevent the indoctrination of the gay lifestyles on children as young as kindergarten.

    In the end, its this simple:
    Protecting children should always trump the wants of a few!

  • Re: Erika
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:34 p.m.

    When I read the article, I did not assume that it implied there was violence in demonstrations. From the articles I've read, the DesNews emphasized that the protests were exercising their right to "PEACEABLY assemble."

    You clearly read this article just looking for something to criticize.

  • re: Disgusted
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:40 p.m.

    I agree, we would fight back. That's why Prop 8 was passed. Currently, the homosexuals are attacking marriage by trying to say that they can be married too. Don't agree? Civil unions have all the same rights as married people in California. For all tenses and purposes, a civil union and a marriage are the same thing in California legally. Why would anyone care then? Because they want to attack marriage and religion. If you say that you believe homosexuality is a sin, you're attacked for being a "hatemonger". Well it is, just like any type of sexuality outside of marriage. By the way, if you redefine marriage, I don't think God is going to agree, so he is still going to consider it a sin regardless of what the courts decide. That said, it won't stop the homosexuals from attacking the churches for being against it!

  • re: Stenar
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:45 p.m.

    How about the tyrany of a minority? The Mormon Church is being assaulted when they hardly had anything to do with the outcome, but they are being attacked because they are a minority. That's why the Catholic Church and the Baptists, etc. aren't being attacked!

  • jared
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:52 p.m.

    i love the separation of church and state signs.. shows how ignorant people are. didnt they know that the country was FOUNDED on religious principles? the separation of church and state means the government does not run the church, and the church does not run the government. this vote was BY THE PEOPLE. there is no church and state mixture. american ignorance. and you wonder why our best candidates were obama and mccain?

  • What Jokes?
    Nov. 16, 2008 10:55 p.m.

    I echo the other posters here about gay jokes at Church. I have lived in over 15 different wards and never heard such things at Church. Every member I have met would be embarrassed to be heard talking like that, especially at Church, and especially on a Sunday.

    And on any other days of the week the LDS people I know are incredibly tolerant. They don't swear and off-color jokes are rare if not non-existent. Most Mormons have a tough time even with blond jokes for fear of offending someone.

    Anyone who suggests Mormons as a people use hate-speech or speak with intolerance about anyone is either confusing them with another group of people or are blatantly trying to deceive.

    Mormons, like all true followers of Christ, are tolerant of all people. They love and forgive everyone. What they do not tolerate is sin. Like Christ, they strive to condemn the sin, but love and help the sinner.

    If you want tolerance, you have it. But if what you seek is our acceptance of immoral behavior, you have come to the wrong state and nation.

  • Blondie
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:04 p.m.

    I'm thinkin gays should have the right to marry and also have the right to participate in all of the possibilities that go along with it including domestic violence, cheating spouses,financial problems, divorces, custody battles (maybe) and property settlements just to name a few. Have at it people -- marriage is not a bed of roses. It requires patience, responsibility, and hard work to make it work. Whoever wants to appreciate the joys of marriage should also have to suffer the sorrows.

  • The legal interpretation
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:16 p.m.

    After all is said and done,

    and whether sides will agree and disagree as to what the rulings...

    it comes down to...

    What can be done legally.

    Yes, the passing of 8 shows that we, as a society, by a slim margin only, are still not there, in allowing others to live their/our lives as we would.

    And sure it hurts.

    That said --- we now have two contradictory legal interpretations --- and both of them will have to be done by the same Court.

    Methinks my mind takes me back to Brown v. Board of Education, when, the Chief Justice sought an unanimous vote by all justices, to show union with the justices. Are we ready to go there? Or will we have a split decision? Or even worse, a decision that puts us back in Square One?

    The judges' ruling will have to, in essence, state that Proposition 8 violates equal protection under the law. Does the amendment to the constitution violate that?

    In a worse case scenario, will we, as the LGBT community, have to re-amend the Constitution the Constitution to, in essence, extend marriage to those of us who are now disenfranchised.

  • The legal interpretation
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:25 p.m.

    I believe that when voters went to the polls, they were thinking with their religious minds, not their secular law minds.

    By far, the overwhelming argument that I hear is that "I cannot pass marriage between a man and a man or a woman and a woman" because it is against my religion.

    Right.

    we get that.

    I think the undertone, implied, and not written meaning behind Proposition 8 was "only a (religious) marriage is recognized or valid in the State of California."

    I don't hear an argument from the side of the people who are not religious, hence my argument. Further, to imply that marriage is only religious is having a narrow-minded view about marriage. Would you in essence, based on your religious beliefs, invalidate the marriages of hetero couples married civilly?

    Of course not.

    Therefore, by the same logic, marriage is not religious in nature only.

    If you say it goes against your religion, fine, we get "The Proclamation to the World."

    How would you extend "Proclamation to the World" in the courtroom?

    A moral issue? Methinks it is a legal one.

    Courts may or may not define morality. It is up to people to do that.

  • a gay mormon exposed
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:30 p.m.

    You've been caught lying again. Your fabricated story used to ignite others against the Church won't work. Just you wait and see. So sad you can't argue your case based on truth. You have to resort to lies because you have nothing to stand on. Your rhetoric is pure drivel. I live near SF and have read California family code 297.5. I've also read what Sir Elton John has to say about gay marriage and guess what, he's on the side of truth!!! He isn't resorting to lies. He's telling it like it is. Homosexuals have civil partnerships and have the same rights of married spouses.

  • To 'What Jokes?"
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:31 p.m.

    You would be surprised how many investigators are turned off by remarks showing intolerance.

    While I believe that most the ideal is to be embracing and respectful, there are those who are boisterous and say remarks --- oh shall we say --- of anything that is unlike them.

    Perhaps you have been in good wards. I have visited plenty of wards myself too, and time and again, the intolerance was there. Church Members would be wise to show some tolerance towards people of all backgrounds and political persuasions as logn as everyone is respectful.

  • The legal interpretation
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:42 p.m.

    I will rest my case and say that not all things legal are moral.

    In an ideal society, hopefully the two are one and the same. In a hybrid society, it's a mess, trying to put all the pieces together.

    Now then, back to morality, do we allow 52% of the vote to allow to define morality --- by your own argument?

    48% of the vote (or 47.whatever) said that morality should be the other way around.

    You will have to agree, regardless on whether you agree or disagree, that it is a very slim margin.

    And that as society changes, will we allow the 'morality' to be dictated by a simple majority?

    What do we do with the 47%?

    And granted, one side will not like the outcome, whatever the legal ramifications of interpretation might be.

    In the meantime,

    a slim win just made a lot of people unhappy.

    While some may ridicule, and get this, here's where the bigotry jumps in --- based on the entries of these comments alone ---

    "We don't need 'those people' here" --- referring to gays who want to boycott Utah, in a tone of condescencion. Are they/we not children of God?

  • Saren
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:48 p.m.

    I am so sick of hearing about gay right. I have been appalled how they single out the views of churches, and cry hatred but look at the work of many of them destroying and hurting others property. Churches, whatever they come across. Our nation is in moral decay. We no longer have any morals. You all say Churches should stay out. Its a good thing some people still believe in Gods laws. I think it still says in the Bible that being gay is NOT what God intended for us to be.

  • to legal interpretation
    Nov. 16, 2008 11:52 p.m.

    Same sex marriage is not normal. It is against nature, and biology or did you not notice the physical differences between a man and a woman. Same sex couples cannot consumate or procreate. The parts aren't compatible. Children without a mother are more likely to get pregnant as a teen and without a father children are more likely to commit crimes. Same sex marriage is bad for society and our children. There are many nonreligious reasons that same sex marriage is wrong. It was never intended to be a right by our founders.

  • To "legal interpretation"
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:08 a.m.

    You better tell that to my brain, because "normal," as you define it, does not compute.

    I get it about the parts. I don't need a biology lesson and neither do I need to go there.

    The wiring in my brain, and believe me, I have tried, as have many of my LGBT friends, have tried, to no avail, to go hetero.

    You bring in the argument about children --- it seems like you're talking about single parents, and not gay marriage.

  • Common sense
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:09 a.m.

    challenge any of you who are demonstrating hate and bigotry towards the LDS church, to provide substantial proof that the church has over stepped any boundaries of civil law in their support of prop 8. Tell me of a law that says church leaders can't urge their members to participate in their civic duties of voting and encourage them to one side of a debate. Didn't obama campaign from the pulpits of many black churches or other religeous groups? Didn't Huckabee and many other candidates do the same? Did baptists churches overstep the bounds when their members donated? The church itself didn't donate anything it was its members along with thousands and thousands of others. Three quarters of the black and hispanic communities of CA voted for prop 8. Go protest them, oh wait yah you would be too scared because they aren't an easy target like the mormons.

  • common sense
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:10 a.m.

    You are like wolves preying on the weak. All of your intolerance and bigotry is casting shame on your own message. There is no sleeping giant only the same roaring mouse there always was. The sleeping giant voted twice even after you all poured in 40 million, which is more than raised by prop 8 supporters. You are showing your true agenda your way or we'll scare you all into not voting agianst us next time. The real sleeping giant is the silent majority of moral americans who have done the same in 40 other states. Yah or didn't you know that? You had nothing taken away expect the ability to trample on religion. You have civil unions which give ALL (yes ALL) of the same rights as married couples. The results are showing how poor losers react when the public does not support them. Next time we are going to double our efforts and donations to protect ourselves from fanatics who openly attack religions.

  • Churches have rights too
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:11 a.m.

    Saren,

    Your argument is poorly constructed. Richard John Neuhaus said "In a democracy that is free and robust, an opinion is no more disqualified for being religious than for being atheistic, or psychoanalytic, or Marxist, or just plain dumb. There is no legal or constitutional question about the admission of religion to the public square; there is only a question about the free and equal participation of citizens in our public business. Religion is not a reified thing that threatens to intrude upon our common life. Religion in public is but the public opinion of those citizens who are religious" and "As with individual citizens, so also with the associations that citizens form to advance their opinions. Religious institutions may understand themselves to be brought into being by God, but for the purposes of this democratic polity they are free associations of citizens. As such, they are guaranteed the same access to the public square as are the citizens who comprise them.

    There is little doubt that Churches and religious people have a right to participate in the public square but our beliefs and opinions "should be considered on their merits." (Elder Dallin H. Oaks)

  • Legal interpretation
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:15 a.m.

    If we go the way of what was "intended to be a right by our founders" I think we're going the way of how a Constitution should be.

    Shouldn't a Constitution be broad and general without minor clauses and interpretations all along the way? I believe the founders meant for the courts to do the defining and re-defining as time went along.

    I will even go as far as saying that the Constitution was written by God-fearing men, with some Deism along the way.


  • Religion has little bearing
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:21 a.m.

    Re: "to legal interpretation,"

    "Same sex marriage is not normal. It is against nature, and biology or did you not notice the physical differences between a man and a woman."

    We don't know whether nature or nurture influences a person's sexual orientation or a combination of both but we know society doesn't have a legitimate interest in recognizing those relationships. Our society has no business in regulating love or any other intangible. Society has a legitimate interest in promoting "traditional marriage" as we refer to it because it promotes the nuclear family of a man, woman and their biological children.

    We recognize that not all "traditional marriages" will result in procreation or a nuclear family but the potentiality of bearing children is sufficient for society to grant such marriages. Simply stated, a man and a woman may choose not to or be unable to have children but their union promotes the idea.

    Society recognizes that other types of families exist but chooses not to promote those families including families where extended family raise children, adoptive parents, and families that consist of persons of the same sex.

    But society has no business in promoting those families. Only recognizing their existence.

  • Michael
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:31 a.m.

    The difference with gay rights and women's right to vote and civil rights, was that women couldn't vote, so they fought so they could vote, not so that women could be considered men in the eyes of the law, and blacks had to have everything separate, so they fought to be included, not so that blacks could be considered white in the eyes of the law. Those fighting for gay rights are not asking that a gay couple have the same privileges and benefits as a married couple, they are fighting to be considered a married couple, even though the definition of marriage has traditionally been a man and a woman. They have already hijacked the words gay, lesbian, and pride. Please don't change the definition of marriage, so that it no longer means what it used to. Widespread divorce and Hollywood has already managed to tarnish the sanctity of marriage, I am afraid gay marriage would dissolve the sacred nature of marriage even more. You can have your rights, just let us keep our definition of marriage.

  • Majority
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:19 a.m.

    Same sex marriage on the ballot is 0 for 30 or so? That is not close. If you can't win in CA you can't win anywhere. Over a half million votes is not close and that was the margin of victory for prop 8. Same sex marriage is wrong and anybody with logic and knowledge understands that. Gays already have equal rights. They can marry someone of the opposite sex like everybody else. They also have civil unions.

  • About lifestyles
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:21 a.m.

    I am reading the entries about people objecting and using the logic of "I object to the homosexual lifestyle."

    Fine, call it a lifestyle if you want.

    As a gay man, I suppose I could object to the heterosexual lifestyle.

    Does that make any kind of sense?

    Of course not.

    My "lifestyle" is different than your "lifestyle."

    My practices and "Your practices" are different.

    I have never tried to push a heterosexual person to "accept my lifestyle."

    That's ridiculous.

    For a straight person to say that gay people are trying to push their lifestyles onto other people is ridiculous --- and no one has to accept anything.

    You don't have to believe anything.

    You don't have to accept it anymore than, oh, the lifestyle of Australian aborigines. There's a lifestyle that's different.

    LGBT people are not asking any to accept their lifestyle. They are simply asking for people to let them live. So let them. They don't interfere with your lifestyle. Why should you interfere with theirs?

  • To Nostradomis
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:28 a.m.

    I believe you meant to say "Nostradamus" --- but what's with the French psychic?

    And by the way, the quote you mention, from Lincoln, "the government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth" --- Gettysburgh Address

    I believe Pres. Lincoln also had in mind the whole democratic process --- including courts, not just majority rule --- I believe that's what you were referring to when you said "Deal with it"

    Good heavens ---

    And by, the way, do you know President Lincoln's record on executive privilege, as long as you're quoting Lincoln?

    Further, no, we will not deal with it.

    Maybe you should deal with it when Prop 8 gets overturned. Then we'll come back and say to you, "Deal with that."

  • Domestic partnerships
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:42 a.m.

    And about Elton John.

    As a gay man, He does not speak for me.

    So don't make Sir Elton John the posterboy for gay rights.

    If he wants to call his union a domestic partnership, let him.

    Other straight people also do not get married --- there are many variations. LGBT, like many communities, have their likes and dislikes about how they want to dedicate their unions.

    As far as dictionary definition between "a man and a woman" --- reminder, people write dictionaries. Dictionaries do not write dictionaries.

    Dictionaries are actualized, edited, socialized, and yes, I will say it, they have biases --- based on the writers' interpretation of the meaning of the word.

    If dictionaries were not actualized, what would become of words that have become obsolete, updated, cliched, become offensive, or rather, the opposite?

    As societies change, so do dictionaries. Dictionaries are, in large part, a reflection of the society in which we live. Thanks for the lesson in etymology.

    As far as the argument of a long-standing "traditional" definition of marriage between one man and one woman, wrong again.

  • Diane
    Nov. 17, 2008 4:28 a.m.

    I've been following the terrible situation happening now to the LDS church and my fellow brothers and sisters in the States very closely.
    Here in Spain, same sex marraige and adoption is permitted by law, unfortunately, but the law was changed without all these demonstrations and shouting.
    The main thing I can see out of all this is the hatred being shown towards those who voted for the law by the "no" voters. Their actions, words etc certainly do not make me think that they are stable, loving or capable enough of adopting and raising children in a loving home with respect for all and everybody.

  • Thrawn
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:25 a.m.

    I have to say, as a result of the vandalism and threats against a church that supported Prop 8, I now have less respect for those who equate "allowing homosexual marriage" with "tolerance".

    Of course, the fact that I belong to said church has an impact on that. But still - when demonstrations get violent, a protest has become a mob. And a mob is about as intolerant as anything I can imagine.

  • Starman
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:28 a.m.

    Homosexuality is a deviant behavior. The homosexuals will never see this. They would rather everyone accept their evil as something good rather than turn to Christ and repent.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 17, 2008 7:28 a.m.

    The arguments of the opponents of gay marriage are easily turned into the stuff of satire with a simple question. Will the marriage of Jim and Bob of Arbuckle City, California, really lead to the destruction of the United States of America? Answer: Of course, not.

    The following countries have legalized same-sex marriage, and straight marriages have continued or increased and divorce rates have not changed: Netherlands (2001), Belgium (2003), South Africa (2005), Spain (2005), Canada (2005), and Norway (2008).

    Im a straight male, age 62, married 40 years. Im not a Mormon, but I believe that Mormons are Christians. I also believe that many Mormons now feel that the LDS Churchs involvement in California politics was ill-advised. Its fine to oppose gay marriage, but dont make a law against it. Dont restrict a persons free agency.

    The percentage of people who favor gay marriage will continue to rise until gay marriage becomes the subject of a well-deserved yawn. The young straight people will be the yawners as the old fogies of my generations leave the stage.

  • Jake
    Nov. 17, 2008 7:34 a.m.

    I suppose the Mormon church was right in denying African-American members the priesthood until 1980 as well? Trust me, they were wrong on that issue and they are wrong here.

    This is unconstitutional and oppressive.

    Forcing people to "make the right choice" was Satan's plan, was it not? We are supposed to allow all people to make their own choices. We're only suppose to focus on loving others and perfecting ourselves. LET HOMOSEXUALS HAVE EQUAL RIGHTS! They are not less of a person than anyone else. If in fact their marriage is "wrong" then let God judge that. Not us.

    The church and it's members are COMPLETELY off-base here. HOWEVER, it is their right to vote how they see fit and it needs to be respected. They were not the only ones who contributed money or voted in favor of Prop 8. Leave the Mormon church alone. However, I hope they realize how wrong they are in this matter.

  • Wow!
    Nov. 17, 2008 7:35 a.m.

    Hundreds, very soporific.

  • L8TR H8TZ
    Nov. 17, 2008 7:52 a.m.

    I don't believe that they should put civil rights issues to a vote by the people. If states allowed votes on other civil rights issues then inter-racial marriages and even black people wouldnt be able to marry today. Things progress naturally and protests are one of the venues for those types of changes.

  • ? evil=good & good=evil?
    Nov. 17, 2008 8:04 a.m.

    "New Morality" in 60's said marriage unnecessary= forced by religion- free love!
    Then-what done in private was nobodies business- what you didn't know, didn't hurt you.
    Then they "came out of the closet" -- we should accept them.
    Then they demanded civil unions- and in Mass. they GOT civil unions- but it wasn't enough for them- they lied!
    Then said it was HATE discrimination if they were not allowed to FORCE churches to marry gays in DEFIANCE to Bible teachings- and threatened to take down any church that refused! So much for tolerance!
    ALSO said Gays had the RIGHT to adopt children (which ONLY come from the union of one man and one woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!) and they FORCED their views using the very legal system that had allowed their "distorted rights"!! They shut down the Catholic Adoption Agency in Mass. so even adoptions to straight couples were foiled!
    NOW they continue to get/call it backwards- as they call those who want to protect the very MEANING of the word marriage, and their own marriages as the ones who HATE??? This is unreal!!

  • Here is the door
    Nov. 17, 2008 8:12 a.m.

    Here is the door to marriage.
    It takes a lock and a key.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 11:27 a.m.

    Sandra Rodrigues has a very good understanding of Democracy.
    What scares me is she was accused of being hate-filled for holding a sign that said "Support Democracy".
    From June to the beganning of November we had to put up with the gloating comments from the anti-8 people about how we would speak against Democracy when Proposition 8 failed. Now it has passed, and the anti-8 people have shown there colors as true believers in mob action.
    They have for months been trying to intimadate people into not participating in the democratic process. This is a very scary situation to me, when people are threatened for excercising their rigth to free speech.

  • Pointless
    Nov. 17, 2008 11:32 a.m.

    Folks, it's a hopeless debate we're engaged in here. Neither side is willing to acknowledge--let alone, understand--the context of the other.

    You're all just saying, "I'm right, you're wrong, so anything I do or say is okay and everything you do or say is evil." (...or unconsititutional, or hateful, etc.)

    Give it up, folks! Quit playing "My tunnel vision is better than your tunnel vision."

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 11:33 a.m.

    To Kelly,
    Women did win the right to vote by the normal Democratic process, not throw court fiat. I suggest you study history some more before telling us about it.

  • Lance
    Nov. 17, 2008 11:41 a.m.

    Me thinks thou dost protest too much.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 11:54 a.m.

    To Clark,
    Since domestic abuse is way, way higher in same-gender relationships and lowest of women who are actually married to the man they live with, there is such a long history of distorting the story that there is no reason to hope that the distortion will end soon.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:10 p.m.

    The 10:35 poster wants us to keep our religion in the closet.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:14 p.m.

    To the 2:24 poster,
    I could count the jokes and demening references to people with same gender attraction and would generally come up with zero.
    You will never find anything less than a respectful, if clearly stating such behavior is sinful, reference in church magazines and at general conference. To find the source of jokes and demeaning references about sexual orientation you have to look to popular culture not the LDS Church.
    The problem is that sexually related jokes are so common in the media and we imbibe them. It has nothing to do with the actions of the church.

  • This is the deal...
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:19 p.m.

    Far from showing that Californias Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair treatment. Mormons should remember this, since you yourselves are vulnerable.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:22 p.m.

    To Becki,
    If you were really for fairness, you would be after the most glaringly unfair laws around. These are the laws that make it a crime for a man to recognize and support more than one woman as his wife, but if he sleeps around and takes no responsibility for his additional children, it is perfectly legal.
    I would believe the argument these people believe one should be able to marry whoever they love if they were seeking to decriminalize plural marriage. Since they are not doing so, I have to conclude that there is really some other agenda, and that people are being disengenous about their theories about living together.
    The government has an interest in kepping child rearing in the bounds of matrimony.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:27 p.m.

    The most negative comments regarding sexual orientation I have ever heard come from people who would claim to be "enlightened". It comes from church members who are at least dangerously close to accepting the redefinition of the family, and get mad when you speak for the core support of the family. Yet they see nothing wrong with making comments that are at least border line hurtful implysing that the reason someone is 29 and unmarried may be that he has sexual orientation issues.
    It is these people who have taken too much of their learning from the world and too little from the scriptures who make such comments. It is not people who have learned to see things through God's eyes, or even started to move towards such an understanding. They may be members of the church in name, and show up to church regularly, but they have clearly failed to let the teachings of Christ cause them to have a new attitude towards their fellow beings.

  • Roger Carrier
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    I'm straight, but most all gay people that I know believe that Mormons are Christians. You cannot say this about the Mormon allies in California. They think Mormons are NOT Christians. There is no hate for the LDS Church, only a lot of anger at the church getting involved in California politics.

    I think many Mormons believe that crusade was ill-advised.

  • Rob
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:30 p.m.

    The LDS church once again has violated the separation between church and state. It should lose its tax-exempt status. It is time that the theocracy ends.

  • Jon B. Holbrook
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:35 p.m.

    The Deseret News needs to remember that it has a unique mission. That is to defend the history, doctrine and practices of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
    It appears to me that whenever the Deseret News covers the debate conserning the homosexual rights movement, it is editorially more sympathetic towards the gay-rights movement than the LDS Church. Joe Cannon needs to re-examine the overall editorial policy of the Deseret News and its place in regards to the Church that it is to defend.
    Thank-You

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:36 p.m.

    The people voted. You lost, get over it!! And do you really think if we voted on a marriage between a man and a woman that it would not win. What cloud is your head in.

  • Mark
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:41 p.m.

    To redefine marriage to include Gay couples is making the claim that both unions are equal when they are not. Nature's design of our bodies endorses marriage between a man and a woman - not a man and a man nor a woman and a woman. Marriage between two people of the same gender cannot equate to the potential of marriage between a man and a woman - not by man's design but by nature's design. It's really quite simple. Proposition 8 sustained an ideal that has sustained humanity for thousands of years since its inception. Could Gay marriage on its own have done that? How then can we responsibly as a society claim that both are equal when they are not. Proposition 8 wasn't a derogatory statement against anyone nor any group. It simply supported the obvious facts of life.

  • To J. Holbrook
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:44 p.m.

    I thought the mission of a newspaper is to report the news. If you feel upset that this newspaper's reporting covers both sides of a story, that merely reflects your own religious bias. Do not expect the media, even in a peculiar state like Utah, to only side with the mormons. Try, just a little bit, to be more realistic and maybe even, ummm, fair?

  • It is not pointless
    Nov. 17, 2008 12:54 p.m.

    While some folks may never change their minds ---

    Point in fact --- some people today hold on sexist beliefs that date them clear back to the 50s --- and they still cling on to them in the name "of tradition."

    There are, however, points to be made and discussions to be had. I say, let all the discussion on the table, allow for "some people" to re-visit the issue and some will undoubtedly change positions, one way or the other --

    You cannot negate the fact that like it or not, society has become less homophobic. Example, many businesses now have "orientation" as a cause of harassment where that would not have happened ten or fifteen years ago.

    So there is more discussion to be had. If we allow for discussions to cease, there will be growth in understanding. Clearly, by reading some of these entries, I can see people being "out of touch" on both sides --- some are out of touch about LDS theology --- others are out of touch of what it means to be LGBT identity. You do not have to accept any ideology, but being an informed citizen allows people to vote wisely.

  • Hundreds Protested . . .
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    While millions of parents sat home with their children helping them with their homework and teaching them correct principles.

  • guarded bard
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    Gays boycott Utah... "Let's get the Film Festival." Nail those liberals in Park City. Do we really want a trade war? If the Prop 8 people are as mean spirited as the gay activists think.... shouldn't a minority worry about a boycott of the theatre, dance, and restaurant businesses in which they work and own?

  • to Roger Carrier
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    Thank you--a voice of reason.

    Mormons are the victimizers in this--not the victims.

    Please look at your views and values with LOVE. When i see love i know it's of God. i don't need a church leader or anyone else to tell me what love is or what God accepts. if you're not sure--let people be and let God judge.

    from a Mormon who beleieves in a God of LOVE

  • Civil Right???
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:24 p.m.

    This is not a "civil rights" issue and this is why black Californians who voted for Obama did not vote in favor of your gay agenda. The fact is, civil unions afford homosexuals the same rights, but the gay agenda wants more. The reason you attack the sacredness of marriage is because you want to influence Moral Perceptions! Marriage historically is based on procreation and the progenity of the human race, not an effort to discriminate. Gays must not sit in the back of the bus. Gays are not barred from a whites only restroom or the right to vote. Gays have the right to live (thanks to the natural act of heterosexuality). Gays have the right to liberty and PURSUIT of happiness. What other civil right is anyone else entitled to above and beyond???

    True...seperation of church/state but not God and state. You will not legislate morality.

  • tc5bw
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:32 p.m.

    The arguments that churches shouldn't be involved in this discussion is shallow. Marriage has been been only between a man and a woman for centuries. To change that institution is to produce a whole set of consequences of which many are unintended. Civil unions give all the rights, privileges and honors afforded heterosexual marriage...without the name. It's not wrong for people to oppose what they view seriously as a change that would hugely impact family and social structure in such a way as to take the rights of parents to teach their values to their children. This whole issue is one of the government choosing to engage in social engineering according to their values. Courts, mayors, governors and city councils should listen to the voice of the people. Since the people have spoken twice in California then it's time to ponder and act not protest.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:35 p.m.

    While I would not go as far as Mr. Holbrooke did, especially since often the Deseret News is publishing articles from other sources, verbatim, to give us a feel for what is occuring on the outside, I do feel that at times Deseret News reporters need to think more deeply on wording before writting articles and explore the assumptions and impressions language makes.
    This was not an issue about making anything illegal as normally understood. If something is illegal, you can be fined or jailed for it. Nothing of the sort results from same-gender unions under Prop 8, they merely do not recieve the government endorsement accorded to marriage.
    I would point out though that since the Deseret News is owned by the LDS Church, the 12:44 commentator misses the point. The issue is not what position should be taken by a paper published in Utah, but what position should be taken by a paper owned by the LDS Church. You have to start with an understanding of the discussion and issues to ever reach a consensus.

  • SoCal resident
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:38 p.m.

    Hundreeds protested? Yah--this movement is dying--we have much more important issues to be dealing with--the people voted, so let it be written--so let it be done. Two more words: NUFF SAID!

  • CO Coug
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:58 p.m.

    How about you quit protesting a legal, democratic vote and go back to California and hand out blankets and food to the firemen fighting to save your homes.

    Just an idea.

  • To Roger Carrier...
    Nov. 17, 2008 1:58 p.m.

    You sorely underestimate LDS doctrine if you think members of this church regret the stance our leaders have taken. The gay agenda is trying to open up a can of worms which will inevitably affect Christian doctrine and our right to preach it. Gay marriage is NOT the end goal. Legitimizing the false morality of homosexuality is the end goal. Making all accept it and be "tolerant" is their end goal. Redefining the sacred institution of marriage is a kingpin.

    We don't care if other religions view us as Christian or not. That is altogether a different subject, but all religions who appreciate the promulgation of the human race will stand with us on this.

    Being tolerant of every human whim is to take a stand on NOTHING. When it comes to the obvious opinion of our Creator found in the Bible...I will side with Him on this issue. I will also be an advocate for Him on this issue.

  • JW
    Nov. 17, 2008 2:01 p.m.

    Richard G! Is the Mormon church the only one that was for Prop 8???

  • 80% of the funding
    Nov. 17, 2008 2:03 p.m.

    Since the LDS church didn't donate, but individual LDS people did, I'm curious how the "80% of the funding" figure was arrived at.

  • Re: rob
    Nov. 17, 2008 2:08 p.m.

    Take a class on the constitution and ask the professor if you can base your grade on your answer to the question of "Did the LDS church violate the separation between church and state by its role in the Prop 8 Election." He or she will either laugh, or look at with that "how does this person survive on their own" look on their face, then give you an "F".

  • LDS Church position
    Nov. 17, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    I'm curious as to how many people, gay or straight, LDS or not, have actually read the church's position (available on their website) on same gender attraction.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:11 p.m.

    It is interesting that gays need a church to be a "catalyst to help focus [their] cause to move forward."

    If the right to marry someone of the same sex is so self-evident (i.e. a basic right), then why do you need a church that supports a ban to act as a "catalyst"?

    Also, why persecute a church that raised awareness of the issue - the money spent on the campaign did not force anyone to vote a certain way.

  • to domestic partnership
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:11 p.m.

    You say Sir Elton John doesn't speak for you. Why? I suspect it is because he speaks the truth when he says people are put off by calling civil partnerships a marriage, and that civil partnerships have the same rights as married spouses. I appreciate his words and understanding of other people's point of view.

  • straight dude
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:16 p.m.

    ok..i'm all for civil unions, etc..and rights for the gay and lesbian folks..but suggesting that marriage falls under the 14th amendment breaks the rubberband..

    Marriage is for a man and a woman, period. Maybe we'll protest.

    p.s...i'm not a mormon.

  • Skippy
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:19 p.m.

    The voice of the people have spoken to support Proposition 8.

  • LDS in Cali
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:21 p.m.

    I laugh when people incorrectly assume that many Church members regret the involvement in prop 8. No way, I even put my yes on 8 bumpersticker in my journal so my posterity will know how I felt about protecting their future. What is really funny is an anti LDS website directed at those who supported prop 8. They state that THREE HUNDRED AND ONE Mormons were against prop 8. Apparently in SLC three hundred and one people signed a petition denouncing the LDS involvement in prop 8 and took it to Church headquarters. They don't seem to realize there are tens of thousands of members in Utah and 13 million members worldwide. Imagine that, over 5.3 million Californians voted to ban gay marriage. That's not quite half of the entire membership of the Church in the whole world. And that number includes children who are too young to vote.

  • Be thankful...
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:28 p.m.

    Judging from all the comments here, you should be thankful and grateful for gay people. Holding up their sin, and keeping their unions illegal seems to be the glue holding you together.

  • Churchisgood
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:31 p.m.

    Briefly -

    I have to say I am thrilled with this new program. Regarding the temple demonstrations, have you ever seen so many inactive Mormons and non-Mormons show up to church?

    Not only that, I can tell that many more will likely listen for a prophet's voice in the immediate future. (Oh come on, that was funny! have a sense of humor.)

    Definitely an inspired direction for the church.

    Churches get to speak on moral issues. Deal with it.

    Utah Territory (overwhelmingly Mormon) was the first to give US Women the vote. Mormons are pro-rights people, but marriage is based on biology, not just law. Gay marriage would undermine my marriage, and force churches to condone the prohibited act of homosexuality.

    I do not doubt GBLTer's will try again, and may eventually win. If that happens, we may have to leave again. But stop saying we have polygamy...we gave up polygamy over a century ago, and it nearly crushed the church to practice it. Yeah, we know what it's like to be on the wrong side of the law especially on an issue like this.

    Kinda sucks, right? Give it up. Change, like we did. Even better, repent.

  • randy
    Nov. 17, 2008 3:32 p.m.

    and these folks arent moving to conn or mass because why ??

    they have relief .. take it ..

    the majority is pretty pissed for having to pay so much for the minority for so long ... get the hint minority folks .. .

    the majority has had a enough ...

    pack yourselves up and get back to where you are being accepted .. take advantage just like millions before you who gathered themselves (pick a group, sect, lifestyle etc)

    enjoy the trip and quit wasting our time and your time .. we arent watching and we arent listening .. you have a place of relief .. use it

  • Obama & Gay Marraige
    Nov. 17, 2008 4:01 p.m.

    I want gay rights activists to acknowledge and accept my basic right to participate in a democratic process.

    Also, why not single out President-Elect Obama? His position regarding same-sex marriage is essential the same as the LDS Church - gay rights ok, gay marriage, no.

  • Ragingliberalhippie
    Nov. 17, 2008 4:27 p.m.

    I've lived in California all my life, with good friends and neighbors who are members of the LDS church. I'm not gay and I'm not angry at the passage of Prop 8 just...disappointed at the role the Mormons had in its passage. Our nation was founded on a compromise position that there would be no religion in the state for the very fear that one would be used to oppress the others. The church talks about the freedom of choice for its members and voting what is morally correct, but I doubt they'd say the same thing if Sharia Law were placed on the ballot. Further, all churches take advantage of their tax write-off, which is fine but not when it is thrown back into politics directly or indirectly. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and leave our state constitution alone, for you're inviting a whole slough of problems both for the future California and the future of religions of all types.

  • Misleading Article
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:04 p.m.

    Why didn't they title this article, "Millions of Utahns don't Support Anti Prop 8 Rally?" Instead, we give front page press to talk about a "movement" of "hundreds."

    Give me a break!

  • and the band played on
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:10 p.m.

    It's quite chilly in here , isn't it? this sounds like a game of "I know you are but what am I" Peace out!

  • re Obama & Gay Marriage
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    Are you sure your church is for gay rights? Here in Utah, they weren't in 2004 when they heavily endorsed Amendment 3. Due to that, gay couples in Utah have No legal rights. Obama is in favor of Civil Unions for gay couples, not Gay Marriage. Are you sure your church shares the same position?

  • Mormon Defender
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:31 p.m.

    I don't know what the gays have against Utah. Let's do the math: 12 Million California Residents voted in the 2008 Presidential election. About 52% of voters voted against the legalization of same-sex marriage. This adds up to about 6.25 Million Californians voting against same-sex marriage. 2% of California's popualtion is LDS. This adds up to about 720,000 Million Mormons in California. Plus, if you count kids who aren't old enough to vote and elderly in Rest homes, this is anywhere to 600,000 to 700,000 mormons who could have voted for Propositon 8, but those who have gay children voted against it obviously. The people in California have spoken. Stop bashing the mormons.

  • Domestic partnership
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:39 p.m.

    When I said that Elton John does not speak for me, if I may, I never gave my voice for Elton John to speak on my behalf.

    Do you allow for others to write/express on your behalf? I assume that your views and not those of others --- or is someone else writing down your opinion?

    Please explain.

    As far as "truth" is concerned --- it is not so much "truth" as it is opinion. You cannot expect for any community to reach a concensus on everything 100% of the time.

    Look at the LDS church, it's split down the middle for crying out loud --- some devout LDS members are against Prop 8. The LGBT community has a wide range of views --- and you cannot expect that all members of the community will view this issue with the same lens. My point being, is there one sole person speaking for the entire heterosexual community? And who is that, by the way? If so, perhaps you can give me his/her contact name and I will address him instead of talking to you.

    Your opinion made as much sense as someone who does not get out much.

  • Undermine marriage?
    Nov. 17, 2008 5:52 p.m.

    I don't get you fundamental LDS people.

    Or for that matter, any person who says "gay marriage" would undermine their marriage.

    Really?

    Well, in the State of California 18,000 gay marriages were performed already, up until this debacle.

    How exactly did those marriages undermine yours?

    Your neighbors' marriage has no power to undermine your marriage as YOU have to undermine your own marriage.

    Moreover, the argument keeps popping up, "marriage is a tradition."

    A lot of things are traditions. Marriage goes back in history.

    And so does gay history. It goes wayyyyyy back.

    That's a tradition also. I'm using your own logic here.

    Here are some things that are possible deterrents to a good marriage:
    * divorce --- a big one, maybe ban that. That will preserve marriage in a jiffy.
    * domestic abuse --- another big one.
    * infidelity --- hmmm ---
    * child neglect

    I wonder why none of these came up in a Preposition to amend the constitution, if we are going to use the logic of "morality." Clearly the above are immoral, ban those --- and by far, they have a far greater impact to affect your own marriage than your neighbor's.

  • Equal rights in California
    Nov. 17, 2008 6:01 p.m.

    Re: "Obama and Gay Marriage" --- you raise an excellent point.

    Many of the posts on here say that gays already have equal rights.

    Point taken. Fine, we'll go with that. Let's make believe for a moment a couple with a domestic partnership in California moves to Utah. By some of these arguments, that gay couple, barring marriage, has all equal rights available to everyone else.

    They move to Utah, and boom. Where are those 'assumed equal rights' that you speak of?

    Oh? You strip those when they get to Utah?

    You have no kind of rights for the LGBT community? Am I understanding this correctly?

    By your own assumption, you are saying that gays in California already have equal protection under the law based on the fact that we in California have domestic partships.

    Or are equal protection under the law relative? depending on what state you live in?

    Let me guess, what will you say? Stay out of Utah politics?

    Exactly.

    Utah, stay out of California politics.

  • To Obama & Gay Marriage
    Nov. 17, 2008 6:06 p.m.

    Obama & Gay Marraige | 4:01 p.m. Nov. 17, 2008

    Obama and the LDS Church see eye to eye in relation to same-sex marriage.

    I believe you haven't read enough, my friend.

    The LDS Church would condone any kind of gay "lifestyle," as you would call it.

    Obama would want to extend all rights to LGBT at the federal level that hetero couples enjoy in marriage.

    True, while Obama does not call it marriage, I do not believe that the LDS Church would ever endorse all rights to gays at the federal level.

  • Hmmm, all this over a word
    Nov. 17, 2008 6:12 p.m.

    All this over one word, "marriage."

    Gays want to share the word.

    fundamentals want the word all to themselves.

    They do not want to share their toys in the sandbox.

    The fundamental kids in the sandbox say "you cannot have my toys because they have always been mine. Go play with those other toys, instead, see, they are just as nice, just don't call those toys 'marriage.' Only my toys can be called marriage."

    So the gay kids play with the other toys called "domestic partnerships" and they find out they are not the same toys. Different toys altogether. Different playground.

    Moreover, fundamental kids say "if you call your toys 'marriage' that will hurt what I call my toys and it will give less meaning to these toys."

  • Florida resident
    Nov. 17, 2008 6:13 p.m.

    The reaction by a large group of gay supporters to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints and its memberships position regarding California's reciently defeated Proposition 8 is having an impact on many folks in Florida. The reaction is mainly that of support. Yesterday the Missionaries in my area told me that as they have gone from home to home doing as missionary's do they are getting support rather than doors shut in their face. As they tell folks who they are many have offered a response of "hey your from the church that supported the defeat of Prop.8" Then they promptly say, "I appreciate what your chuch did." In the long run, I believe the protestors will have a great influence on the growth of the church. The gay protestors are actually helping the church move out from obscurity in an area where few know anything about the doctrine's of the church exept what they've hear from a negative pastor or anti-mormon pamphlet.

  • Can we have a vote
    Nov. 17, 2008 6:40 p.m.

    I would like to vote on this subject in Utah.

  • Jeff C.
    Nov. 17, 2008 7:32 p.m.

    EXPAT: What you fail to realize is that this is NOT about being bigoted or homophobic. We have been tolerant, respectful, civil and have accepted your need to be together as a family. When we (Members of the LDS community) financially supported Proposition 8 it wasn't out of homophobia or hate, it was done in an effort to protect the sanctity of marriage as defined by GOD. We do not hate homosexuals, in fact there are members of the church who are homosexual and realize the importance of following GOD's word by doing their best to follow his teachings. Voting to protect the sanctity of marriage as defined by GOD is not an attempt to destroy a person's marriage, and is therefore NOT about hate or intolerance. I don't think the people of UTAH would have a problem with civil unions. Quit trying to equate your fight with the civil rights movement. The truth is that your CHOICES don't make you a minority, since you can STOP being a homosexual at any time. You can't stop being black, hispanic or asian. Take your civil unions and leave traditional marriage alone.

  • TO Hmmm, all this over a word
    Nov. 17, 2008 7:40 p.m.

    Great analogy!

    immature kids and their toys. more like sandbox bullies!

    When will Mormons understand that their $$ paid for a campaign full of LIES and played on people's FEAR. an unrealistic fear. You were the biggest contributor and you wonder why the protests, the vandalism, the hate coming your way???

    you started it, now deal with the aftermath!!

    i will stand beside my gay friends and relatives as they fight for equality and respect.

    my Mormon ancestors who were persecuted are rolling in their graves right now. the persecuted have become the persecutors. sad, sad, sad.



  • to domestic partnership
    Nov. 17, 2008 9:50 p.m.

    To say the LDS Church is split down the middle, is showing a great deal of ignorance. I guarantee you that the VAST Majority of members of the Church agree with the Church's stance. Of course there are those who do not understand why the Church took the stance, but the majority of them are still devout, active members of the Church. There is a VERY small minority of LDS members who are letting it destroy their faith and they seem to be the most vocal. However, the Church is far from being split down the middle. Many more people will be brought into the Church because of our position than those that will leave because of it, mark my words.

  • tenx
    Nov. 17, 2008 10:11 p.m.

    We all supported our own views on the subject and one side won and the other lost. Same with the political election. So lets move on and accept the results.

  • MOJ
    Nov. 17, 2008 10:37 p.m.

    One of the basic premises of the field of Sociology is that cultural norms influence and are influenced by each member of a given culture. When a particular path is seen as normative in a society, it increases that likelihood that members of that society will pursue that path.

    Thus, the argument that lifestyle choices have no impact on others is myopic, from a Sociological standpoint. Perhaps it is true in the narrowest sense (that my choices, alone, have no direct impact on you), but in the aggregate (my choices, multiplied by thousands/millions of others like me), those choices combine and contribute to the "climate" of our culture.

    This is, essentially, a wrestle over the cultural climate. I can't blame the GLBT community for wanting to build a cultural climate that is in line with their worldview. But neither can I blame the Mormon community for wanting to build a climate that is in line with theirs.

  • Juston
    Nov. 17, 2008 11:37 p.m.

    If consenting adults is the criteria for gay marriage then you cannot deny the polygamist marital recognition as well. Anyone supporting gay marriage should also ponder if they would support polygamists or other consenting adult marriages. If not, then a consenting adult arguement rings hollow.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:05 a.m.

    GAY MORMON,

    I don't know where you go to church, but I would consider changing wards or stakes or something because you are definitely in a very BAD one. I have NEVER heard a joke demeaning any of the people or religious groups mentioned in your post, and I have been in the LDS church since 1993. I doubt that kind of stuff happens at all in 99% of the LDS stakes out there, but since we are all human I can be pretty sure that it happens at one time or another. Being gay does not keep you from being a member of the LDS church, as you could most likely vouch for, but being actively gay in a sexual relationship would prohibit you from being able to go to the temple or administer sacrament. Gays and Lesbians are openly welcomed to our church services, and I would greet and treat them as I would any other person that walks through our doors to attend sacrament. If your priesthood leaders are allowing this kind of treatment I would take it to the Bishop, or if needed the Stake President, who would deal with it right away.

  • rvalens2
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:21 a.m.

    WHETHER YOU ARE FOR OR AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE YOU NEED TO READ THIS:

    Gay marriage is coming to Utah.

    The Equal Protection Clause of the U.S. Constitution guarantees it.

    ...;nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; NOR DENY TO ANY PERSON WITHIN ITS JURISDICTION THE EQUAL PROTECTION OF THE LAWS.
    (emphasis added)

    14th Amendment to the Constitution, Section 1.

    What does this mean? It means that laws that apply to any one of us must apply to all.

    The argument is straightforward and simple.

    Marriage is not defined in the U.S. Constitution as being between a man and a woman; until it is, the law is clear. Gay marriages must be allowed. To do otherwise is UNEQUAL treatment under the laws of the land.

    Proposition 8 will be overturned, if not by the Courts in California then by the U.S. Supreme Court in Washington, D.C.

  • re: Traditional Guy
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:28 a.m.

    Traditional Guy stated at 6:53pm that "The gays at the rally weren't hateful, mean, ugly. They were more than civil and all smiles for the most part. The uglier people there were the Christians rallying against them. It was an honor to be there." I'm not sure which rally you attended, but if you want to see what happens to a Pro-8 supporter who quietly stands among your smiling, peaceful protesters why don't you go on to youtube and check out some of the videos made by people who never mentioned they were for or against prop 8 but were confronted by protesters. Stop pretending that the GBLT protesters are holding hands and singing "We Will Overcome". The fact is that most of these protests involve yelling of obscenities, signs demoralizing the LDS faith and its leaders and sometimes even violence against Pro-8 supporters (Check out the protest where grown men grabbed a cardboard cross from a senior citizen and hit her over the head repeatedly while yelling at her to "Go away, you don't belong here!". LDS members do not hate anyone for being gay, and accept people as they are. Get your facts straight please.

  • Equality
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:40 a.m.

    Name one right a gay or lesbian doesn't have here in CA. Don't say marriage because they can get married like anybody else can to someone of the opposite sex. You can't name any can you. This is not a civil rights issue is it.

  • 14th amendment
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:47 a.m.

    I guess you pro same sex marriage people haven't figured it out yet that you can get married to someone of the opposite sex which makes us all equal.

    I guess also that you gays have completely stayed out of federal courts on this issue because the feeling has been that you will lose on this issue in the supreme court.

    You have equality. You can't have special rights because that would make us all unequal.

  • Jokes
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:57 a.m.

    I haven't heard any gay jokes at church ever, but since gays make a choice to be gay and it is their behavior which is bizare, I don't see how a gay joke would be offensive to anyone with a sense of humor. People should laugh at themselves. I guess none of you ever listen to comedians. Lighten up about the jokes. We need to laugh when we are attacked for standing up for traditional marriage. I can laugh when someone makes fun of me. I think you need to laugh also because you should know that same sex marriage is a joke.

  • Motives
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:00 a.m.

    The gay agenda crowd is not going to stop with same sex marriage. Gay pride organizers allow NAMBLA into their events and do not condemn them.

  • Victory
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:04 a.m.

    Same sex marriage was never supposed to be a right according to our founders. Of course neither was abortion, but twisted judges who apparently could not read the Constitution came up with that one also. Our founders never thought any group of Americans would be so perverted as to want same sex marriage.

  • Restrictions
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:07 a.m.

    Marriage has restrictions. You can't marry your father, mother, sister, brother, underage child, or someone of the same sex.

  • CA Voter
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:14 a.m.

    Yes on 8 won. We actually believe in the law. On the no on 8 side you have vulgarity, profanity, vandalism, theft, assault, battery, and hate. You also have gay groups that accept the North American Man Boy Love Association who have had many of their members convicted of child molestation. Which side do you think did the right thing?

  • Fight for what is right
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:21 a.m.

    Homosexuality is a choice. Homosexuals child molest at many times the rate that heterosexuals do. They pass STDs at a much higher rate also. They have many more sex partners than straight people do on average. This is not about marriage, but gays are trying to get us to accept their lifestyle.

  • Great for missionary work
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:35 a.m.

    I would like to thank all the protestors on the losing side of this amendment for helping the LDS church to increase our membership. You have given us more free exposure and good people like what they see. I have never heard the church talked about in such glowing terms on radio and TV before on a national level. All of your hate is backfiring on you. Keep it up because it is also hurting your cause. The more people see your tactics, the more they are against same sex marriage.

  • Miriam Feldstein Case
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:41 a.m.

    Right is right, and wrong is wrong. The glbt may win in this lifetime but not in the eternal realm.

  • old broad
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:12 a.m.

    The churches spent how many millions to fight Prop 8 ?...

    Todays headline "50 percent more US children went hungry in 2007"

    Feeding the hate monster instead of feeding the poor

    "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. Proverbs 14:31

  • Pater
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:57 a.m.

    The Church did not make any donation from its funds. The money donated to Prop 8 was donated by members--Private Donors that are members of the church. The money came out of their own pocket, not the church's. They had a constitutional right to do it. The church spends several millions of dollars a year helping out the poor, not only in the USA, but in many other countries throughout the world. Many are quick to point fingers, but few really look at the facts--come on.

  • re Old Broad
    Nov. 18, 2008 9:03 a.m.

    You are one of the first truly spiritual people commenting on this site, thank you. You are showing all these nasty and hateful people what the real meaning of honoring God is and you can be sure it is not with the hateful rhetoric that is posted on here by so many Mormons.

  • Martha
    Nov. 18, 2008 9:40 a.m.

    The amount of fundraising done by Mormons was well out of proportion to the electorate and the LDS church is only trying to downplay its influence in the campaign because of the backlash.

    The church was very vocal in my ward here in Sacramento asking for donations and urging the members they needed to "get on the ark." For the church to now downplay its role is truly disingenuous.

  • To: Miriam
    Nov. 18, 2008 9:44 a.m.

    RE: "Right is right, and wrong is wrong. The glbt may win in this lifetime but not in the eternal realm."

    Since we don't believe in your "eternal realm" nonsense, we will take our chances. Keep your bigotry for "eternity" and give us our equal rights in this life now!

  • re Old Broad
    Nov. 18, 2008 9:54 a.m.

    The churches spent how many millions to fight Prop 8 ?...

    Todays headline "50 percent more US children went hungry in 2007"

    Feeding the hate monster instead of feeding the poor

    "He who oppresses the poor shows contempt for their Maker, but whoever is kind to the needy honors God. Proverbs 14:31

    Sometimes Donations go to a good cause. The Lord does not condemn it.

    There came unto him a woman having an alabaster box of very precious ointment, and poured it on his head, as he sat at meat.

    But when his disciples saw it, they had indignation, saying, To what purpose is this waste?

    For this ointment might have been sold for much, and given to the poor.

    When Jesus understood it he said unto them, Why trouble ye the woman? for she hath wrought a good work upon me.

    For ye have the poor always with you; but me ye have not always.

    Matt26:8-11

  • re Martha
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:00 a.m.

    Very true and very concise, articulate description of the church's involvement and subsequent hypocritical attempt to distance itself. They are not fooling anyone! Well-said, Martha!

  • Re the 9:54 a.m. post
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:25 a.m.

    I sure hope you are not comparing Prop 8 with the works of Jesus, he would be spinning in his grave.
    That is blasphemous!

    You had better check with your Bishop on that.

  • Karen Phelps
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:25 a.m.

    The same-sex "marriage" issue isn't really about whether or not homosexuals should marry. It is about whether people of faith should give up their freedom of religion, freedom of speech, and parental rights so that homosexuals can marry.

  • Attention Ignorant People
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:40 a.m.

    Please, please stop saying that gay marriage has anything at all to do with parental rights...that is NOT true on any level. There may have been some misinformation about that subject included in the propaganda supported by the church, but nothing could be further from the truth. Don't drink the Kool-Aid...

  • Hmmm?
    Nov. 18, 2008 11:08 a.m.

    I've noticed a complete silence from those who support gay marriage, to the questions asked about giving the same rights to polygamists. I wonder why.

  • re Hmmmm? 11:08 a.m.
    Nov. 18, 2008 11:28 a.m.

    I agree that there is little reason for society to ban plural marriage, if people (including Mormons) wish to participate in plural marriages then who in society is really hurt? Nobody. If children are raised properly and lovingly by their parents, who is hurt? Nobody. So logic follows then that you don't see any reason to ban gay marriage? Who is hurt by it? Quite literally, nobody. Makes sense to me.

  • Marriage for all
    Nov. 18, 2008 11:47 a.m.

    No one's religious beliefs should be used to deny fundamental rights to others. Gay marriage is coming to stay whether you like it or not.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:24 p.m.

    To the 12:05 commentator,
    I have lived long enough to realize that if you are trying to see a fault in others you will assume malicious intentions when they make comments that have no such goal.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:31 p.m.

    So Martha, now we are going to have quota restrictions on our participation in the political process?
    People need to understand that marriage is central to Latter-day Saint beliefs.
    We are not deneying that Latter-day Saints joined with Catholics, Protestants, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, Jews and others to pass Proposition 8. It does seem every time I turn around a higher percentage of the money donated was given by Latter-day Saints. However neither Focus on the Family nor the Knights of Columbus are Latter-day Saint groups, and both of these donated over one million dollars to the campaign.
    I would like to say that Proposition 8 could not have passed without the dedicated help of thousands of Latter-day Saints, but there were people from many other faiths who gave of their time in helping the cause and who faced anger and discrimination for their stand for right.

  • re J.P. Lambert
    Nov. 18, 2008 12:58 p.m.

    Please understand, sir, that virtually all accounts of the shameful proposition's passage indicate that it would not have passed without the significant backing and push of the LDS church. Yes, there is plenty of blame to go around, but honestly...it is disingenuous to disclaim the ultimate responsibility and accordingly, that is the reason for the acrimony and harshness of fair-minded straight people and all the gay people affected. It is not any different than saying that African-Americans cannot marry, and no different than saying that Mormons should not be allowed to marry. You have singled out a particular group for no reason other than to advance your religious beliefs. You would all be wise to go back and read the history of the LDS church and recognize the irony in the persecuted becoming the persecutors. It is as simple as that and you cannot reason your way out of it with quoting bible or scripture, those are merely the words of men written for the purpose of acquiring power and controlling masses of people and money.

  • CA = New Referendum
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:52 p.m.

    Reading all of the hateful comments here, I am concerned that Mormons should not be permitted to teach my children and I think there should be a voter referendum in CA that prohibits Mormons from holding jobs in education. That would be fair, right?

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 18, 2008 1:54 p.m.

    I agree with the other person who posted:

    It is VERY disturbing to see the UN-christian comments by LDS members.

  • Please explain
    Nov. 18, 2008 2:05 p.m.

    to: re J.P. Lambert | 12:58 p.m. Nov. 18, 2008

    you said:

    You would all be wise to go back and read the history of the LDS church and recognize the irony in the persecuted becoming the persecutors.


    Explain how defining marriage to mean a union between one man and one woman is persecution. Now contrast that with being denied the right to vote, going to prison, and having your property confiscated by the government and being driven out of your homes. Then ask yourself has any of this happened to the gays by the hands of the LDS Church. How does defining marriage equate with the LDS forcing their religion on you? On the other hand, gays seek to mold the definition to suit their purposes.

    And wo unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord! And their works are in the dark; and they say: Who seeth us, and who knoweth us? And they also say: Surely, your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay. But behold, I will show unto them, saith the Lord of Hosts, that I know all their works.

  • re Please Explain
    Nov. 18, 2008 2:20 p.m.

    The LDS church is behind a massive effort to deny basic equality and the right of marriage to the gay community. If that ain't persecution, honey, I don't know what is. You can all cloak yourselves in the flimsy idea that you are exercising freedom of religion, but nobody is fooled. You can quote scripture as well, but your support of the proposition and your comments here are unchristian.

  • to spinning in his grave comment
    Nov. 18, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    Apparently you don't realize Jesus is not in His grave.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 18, 2008 2:56 p.m.

    Proposition 8 defined marriage as between a man and a woman. This is how God defines marriage. I feel no shame in following the directions of our loving Hevenly Father who knows and understands all.

  • Attention ignorant person
    Nov. 18, 2008 2:58 p.m.

    It most certainly is about losing parental rights. Why don't you do a little research about parental rights in MA where homosexual marriage is now legal. It isn't hard to find. The truth is out there, now go find it before your ignorance is even more obvious.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 18, 2008 4:13 p.m.

    expat gleefully talks of all the things homosexuals have survived and claims they will continue to do so. Too bad he can't talk to just one homosexual who survived the destruction of Soddam and Gomorrah. Oh wait, there weren't any.

  • On Domestic Partnership
    Nov. 18, 2008 4:23 p.m.

    Prop 8 was not about accepting a domestic partnership registered California validated in Utah. The fight was about the word "marriage." While marriage is typically accepted from one state to another, such is not required. A pastor took a couple across the state lines to marry a couple. When they returned the pastor was arrested for performing a marriage with a minor with intent to return to a state in which such was illegal.

    Should domestic partnership be federal? Absolutely, but so long as the battle remains the word "marriage" over civil union/civil partnership/domestic partnership heels are going to be dug in for a fight.

    What is most unfortunate is ACT 1 in Arkansas in which unmarried couples are no longer able to foster or adopt when there is a shortage of available parents prior to the vote. Children must now remain in institutions over homes with "Arkansas Families First" throwing kids under the bus because marriage is so sacred and wonderful that they cannot have a home deemed imperfect by religious standards but more than acceptable by social services, physicians, psychologist and other association standards. You sacrificed children for the sanctity of 1 man and 1 woman. SICK

  • Sraight But Not Narrow
    Nov. 18, 2008 4:32 p.m.

    I want to start by saying that I am a straight married women, age 41. I am in complete support of my fellow American's having the exact same rights as myself. It shouldn't make a difference who you are in love with. With all the fear and hate in the world, we as a nation should rejoice that more people want to commit to each other. There is suppose to be a seperation of Church and State!!! If you are a religious organization you have every right to say that you will not perform these ceromonies but as a nation we have to give all Americans equal rights, it is the fair and right thing to do. The gay community are tax paying citizens like the rest of us and deserve every right and opportunity we have. Please don't let your fears and judgement cloud your heart and what is the right thing to support. I look forward to the day I attend my first nationally legal gay marriage. For a country that is so progessive we sure missed the boat on this one. PEACE TO ALL

  • Sick and tired
    Nov. 18, 2008 4:55 p.m.

    Why don't they stop putting all the blame on the LDS church? They weren't the only ones for prop. 8. If you are going to protest against the LDS church for taking a stand then you should go after all the other religions that were for prop. 8 and took a stand for their beliefs.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 18, 2008 5:11 p.m.

    thank goodness that homosexuals are no longer allowed to adopt in Arkansas. I hope other states join the bandwagon and protect the rights of innocent children who deserve to have a Mother and a Father rather than be raised in a home where sexual pervsion is the norm.

  • cactus_boy
    Nov. 18, 2008 5:13 p.m.

    Re: rvalens2 @ 12:21 a.m.

    Just a minute there. It isn't so simple and straightforward (in your favor) as you claim.

    It could also be argued that a union between two people of the same sex isn't really marriage at all, by what has been the traditionally accepted meaning of the word. Also, gays CAN get married the same as anybody else, as long as they abide the existing laws (i.e., to a human being, of the opposite sex, who isn't already married to someone else, who isn't an immediate family member, who isn't a first cousin (in about half the states), who is of the age of consent, etc., etc.) These are the same laws that everyone has to follow, therefore there is no unequal treatment.

  • UnChristian
    Nov. 18, 2008 5:54 p.m.

    Mormons posting arguments on here is very Christian. Homosexuality is very unChristian. Christ threw the money changers out of the temple. Just think what he would have done to a bunch of homosexuals having sex with each other in the temple. Oh yeah I guess he did send down the hell fire to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah because of all the wicked homosexuals. Learn about Christ and the LDS church before you pop off next time. You guys and your ignorance and hate is overwhelming. You are helping our missionary effort though. I guess you antimormons didn't think about that either.

  • the truth
    Nov. 18, 2008 6:01 p.m.

    A week or so before the election, homosexuals sponsored ally week in California. KINDERGARTNERS were given a pledge to sign. Parents were upset and took their kids out of school. The teacher sent home a newsletter saying coming out day was a day to be remembered. She has pictures of same sex couples displayed in her classroom. The TV reporter tried several times to get the state superintendent of schools to answer to question about homosexuality being taught in the schools to young kids. He wouldn't answer even though pressed several times. This was the same man appearing in the no on 8 ads claiming it wouldn't be taught in schools. Google kindergarten, gay pledge, Hayward California and you can find it and even see the news report from the bay area cbs tv station-kpix.

  • yet another comment
    Nov. 18, 2008 6:26 p.m.

    I just wanted to help this commentary reach the 500 mark.

    Don't worry same-sex marriage supporters. We Mormons have always believed that the constitution would eventually hang on a thread. Your extreme logic will surely be the road to take it there. Any sane person can see that the government has no business whatsoever stamping its approval on homosexual behavior. But keep up the good work. Maybe the government will officially approval of every form of sin and you can have the world you dream of. I'm just hoping I'm not around to see it.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 18, 2008 6:29 p.m.

    I find it very comforting to know that as evil is certainly increasing in the world, so it goodness. We've witnessed that in recent days. The righteous will band together to fight evil. The two will become more and more polarized, but thankful to know that good will always ultimately win. It's not who wins the battle but who wins the war. Homosexuals may someday get their way, but it will not last-guaranteed.

  • Says who?
    Nov. 18, 2008 7:04 p.m.

    When did we become a "progressive" Country? I didn't hear of a vote. I thought we were a God fearing country, which is it. Lets vote on that. Learn what "seperation of church and state" really is.

    This whole flap is about morals, not marriage! The reason so many people won't let this issue die is because of the moral issue. The question was asked before, IS HOMOSEXUALITY RRIGHT OR WRONG?

  • Now be Nice
    Nov. 18, 2008 7:41 p.m.

    aren't you guys suppose to march too! Back to Missouri?, you better remember how pitiful and misunderstood you were back when as some of these comments are leading to your prophresy of being the most hated..so just show peace while you can!!

  • Marriage continued
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:52 p.m.

    And let me guess,

    your next argument is "homosexuality is immoral, the parts don't fit, Adam and Eve vs. Adam and Steve, we listen to a higher voice, yada, yada, yada..."

    When are you people going to have a solid argument about running a clean campaign?

    If you are so about morality, as you claim you are... why is the campaign so much filled with --- yeesh --- these are religious people?

    I think Nathaniel Hawthorne had something to say about that --- he called it hypocrisy.

    And Arthur Miller too --- blaming others, finding a scapegoat when things don't go right --- find a scapegoat, yep, the gays are to blame --- if society comes crumbling down.

  • Mccleod
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:56 p.m.

    I think it's hilarious when some guy downtown with a "Stop the H8" sign, yells in your face and then tries to punch you. Heheh.
    Really pretty hard to be scared of them though.

  • About public relations
    Nov. 18, 2008 8:58 p.m.

    You guys are kidding when you say that the gays are making the LDS Church look good, right?

    It's a joke, right?

    Or do you have your PR people posting comments left and right to deny everything.

    Next thing I will be seeing are charts and graphs to show PR's campaign showing the Church's PR going through the roof.

    For the record ---

    * 47% of California people voted against Prop. 8 How do you think they view the LDS Church right now?

    * You just made 18,000 gay couples question the validity of their own marriages. Do you foresee any of them ever thinking twice about receiving LDS indoctrination into their home?

    * Marches and public shows of protest are being done across the country, mind you, not just California and Utah --- across the country --- How do you think some of them feel about the LDS involvement in the campaign --- and, please, spare me that 'The LDS Church was not directly involved.' Plwlease.

  • Participation in the campaign
    Nov. 18, 2008 9:01 p.m.

    When are we going to get a straight answer from you folks? I keep getting mixed messages:

    "Yes, we did participate in the campaign, we volunteered because it's in the best interest of society"

    and in the very next sentence...

    "No, we were not involved. California voters did. The Church stayed clear of the campaign."

    Sounds like you're confused about what your direct participation was.

    So let me help you out.

    You did participate --- Hope I have helped you out a little bit.

  • Charity
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:05 p.m.

    I have to laugh when I hear the argument that mormons should have spent money feeding the poor instead of supporting the yes on prop 8 side.

    If homosexuals had not illegally married in San Francisco a few years back and then filed lawsuits when their marriages were disallowed we never would of had to pass prop 8.

    Of course spending the money is good for our economy here in CA. We wouldn't of had to spend so much, but the opposition did.

    As far as Utah is concerned. It is the most charitable state. It is #1 in charitable donations, so I guess all those mormons are helping the poor after all.

    Next time, save us money and keep your equal rights (since everyone has the equal right to marry someone of the opposite sex) and stop demanding special rights.

  • Question
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:14 p.m.

    How come you pro same sex marriage people can't answer these questions. What rights do I not have that other people have? And how am I not equal in rights if I have the exact same rights?

    I will help you since you confused people always avoid logic and you can't be honest when it comes to this subject.

    You have all the same rights as all other Americans. You are equal. You can marry someone of the opposite sex like everyone else can. Completely equal.

  • Lies
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:19 p.m.

    You no on 8 people told many lies during the campaign and you continue to do so. Same sex marriage would have been taught in schools if 8 hadn't passed. Just like in Massachusetts. Your lies are so easily debunked.

  • Feed the children
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:32 p.m.

    We need all these homosexuals and lesbians to stop protesting like immature babies (since they lost in this election) and get out there and work and feed the poor. Why didn't they use that 40 million dollars spent to defeat prop 8, to feed the poor? I guess they are very unChristian because the Mormons spent money on prop 8 and still fed the poor. In fact Utah is the most charitable state in the nation. I guess Mormons are the best Christians after all according to your standards.

  • LEFT-HANDED PEOPLE
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:33 p.m.

    To all you left-handed people. Don't you know that your lifestyle is a CHOICE? And my leader says that your choice is wrong. God only recognizes right-handed people. It's only natural and most people are right-handed. Please learn to be right-handed to live under God's laws, or don't use any hands at all. Otherwise you're a sinner and God will NOT allow any left-handed people into Heaven.

    Makes as much sense as the Church's stand on gayness.

    Think LOVE, be LOVE

    from a straight Mormon in California who stand with her gay brothers and sisters for equality.

  • Help the cause
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:48 p.m.

    Sure some people that are for same sex marriage now may have a more negative view of our church. But your protests have turned some of those who voted for gay marriage against it now. Plus since the country is over whelmingly against gay marriage, this has given many more people a favorable view of the LDS church. People see your protests and don't want to be like you. They know what is right and now they know more about us and are seeking us out more. You people trying to destroy our church are actually helping to build it. You are definitely aiding the traditional marriage side. This is called the law of unintended consequences. The more you cry and whine and try to tear down democracy, the more you convince people to be against gay marriage and become more favorable to the LDS church.

  • to not really a straight Mormon
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:57 p.m.

    You aren't a Mormon or you would know that homosexuality is wrong. You would also know the prophet is right. You are wrong on both counts. Strike 3 is you know that homosexuals and lesbians have exactly the same rights as we do. We are all equal and can marry someone of the opposite sex. You swung and missed 3 times. You are outta here. Save your antimormon stuff for the village idiots out there. You lost this game and you are playing for the wrong team.

  • Derek
    Nov. 18, 2008 10:59 p.m.

    Tenderheart: you rock.
    I agree with the ideas expressed about how outrageous the gay/lesbian community's actions have become. If I was making a choice, I simply choose religion over shaking old women in wheelchairs.
    I guess I'm just a softie with old people holding crosses.

  • Johnny Utah #9
    Nov. 18, 2008 11:36 p.m.

    Re: Lies | 10:19 p.m.

    Nice investigative work, you should be on CSI...

    So, would they make gay marriage a new class in all these elementary schools or something? I don't remember marriage (gay OR straight) being a part of the curriculum at any school I attended.

    The government shouldn't have anything to do with any marriages, gay or straight. Many have said it's "gods law" and it should be kept that way, separated from the state law. Just like the Constitution says.

  • Oxy Moroni
    Nov. 18, 2008 11:45 p.m.

    Re: to not really a straight Mormon | 10:57 p.m

    It's people like you that perpetuate these issues. So blinded by your devotion to your "prophet" that you cannot see the real world for what it is. You are denying basic civil rights to fellow human beings. And they are just that "civil" rights. The bible or book of mormon have no place in any civil laws.

    I can only roll my eyes and shake my head in disbelief at the ignorance and bigotry displayed in your comments. It saddens me think how many other have the same narrow minded views as you do.

  • to Oxy Ignorant
    Nov. 19, 2008 12:15 a.m.

    You have the same rights as all Americans. You can marry someone of the opposite sex who is an adult and not a close relative. You are not being denied any rights. I don't have to argue this using religion at all since I know you have no clue when it comes to God or religion. You are a bigot against Mormons and other God fearing people. You are ignorant when it comes to the Constitution, rights, or natural laws. If I was you I would be sad too. Same sex couples cannot consumate or procreate. Their parts aren't compatible. In CA where I live you can have civil unions. Which gives all rights without the name marriage. Children without mothers are more likely to end up getting pregnant or causing a teen pregnancy. Children without fathers are more likely to commit crimes. A man and a woman compliment each other and children need that. Even in divorce most kids get to spend time with both parents. Homosexuals and lesbians are many more times likely to child molest than heterosexuals. Their gay behavior is abnormal and twisted. Homosexuals and lesbians have a choice and they made the wrong choice.

  • to Johnny
    Nov. 19, 2008 12:27 a.m.

    In California marriage is taught in sex ed and outside of sex ed in school K-12. So if 8 was defeated same sex marriage would have been taught in schools here. It is taught in Massachusetts K-12 schools. They have gay days for elementary schools there and you can't opt your kids out since most of it is outside of sex ed. You are like some of my students who don't pay attention in class, so it doesn't suprise me that you missed the whole marriage thing in school. You also didn't get that whole Constitution thing either. There is no mention of seperation of church and state in the Constitution. Please study the issue some before you opin next time.

  • On left handedness
    Nov. 19, 2008 8:48 a.m.

    Being left handed is not one of the three highest risk factors for contracting AIDS/HIV. The top three risk factors are: 2. Prostitution 3. Drug Use and the Number 1 risk factor? 1. Homosexual sex. Please verify with the Center for Disease Control and the World health Organization.

  • To anonymous
    Nov. 19, 2008 8:59 a.m.

    You seem to have missed that children in Arkansas AREN'T going to homes with one husband and one wife because those homes ARE NOT available. Worse still is that homes with two females or two males or even 1 male and 1 female that are not legally married but loving and capable of being good parents were excluded in a state with a SHORTAGE of foster and adoptive parents. Again, you sacrificed children to institutions to protect the "sanctity of marriage." Do you really not remember the Romanian children damaged by these institutions? Again, 1 man and 1 woman as married are not presenting themselves as foster and adoptive parents. So the children are being sacrificed for your cause.

  • Re: to Johnny | 12:27 a.m
    Nov. 19, 2008 9:16 a.m.

    Well, since marriage is a religious institution it has no business in schools or government. Separation of church and state is part of the First Amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;" So if marriage is an establishment of religion the state has no right to govern it.

    I think gay marriage should part of the sex ed program in schools. School should prepare our children for anything and everything that life can throw at them. Education is the answer, ignorance only breeds bigotry.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 19, 2008 9:26 a.m.

    No one has denied that thousands of Latter-day Saints participated in a grassroots campaign to pass Proposition 8. We joined with other people of faith to accomplish this. Just read the statements of the Catholic Bishop of Sacramento on this issue.
    However, as I have pointed out before, these were Latter-day Saints living in California who participated in the campaign.

  • Oxy Moroni
    Nov. 19, 2008 9:28 a.m.

    Re: to Oxy Ignorant | 12:15 a.m

    Gays and Lesbians cannot marry the person they love. (Obviusly it still has to be an adult and not a close relative)So, they do not have the same rights that you do. You should stick to reading your church propaganda, and keep your nose out of business that doesn't pertain to you.

    You are not a "god fearing" person.

    Fear IS your god.

    That fear, is controlling every aspect of your life.

  • John Pack Lambert
    Nov. 19, 2008 9:32 a.m.

    To the 8:59 commentator,
    I have known people who have waited for years to adopt children. So either Arkansas has too localized a system or there are other problems.
    Also, I was not aware that the meaure in Arkansas had any effect on foster care.
    Maybe if state's did not mass evacute 300 plus children when they only had anecdotal evidence of abuse in one or two households in the neighborhood they would not have overloaded foster care systems.

  • Adam and Steve
    Nov. 19, 2008 9:40 a.m.

    A darn good thing God didn't start out with Adam and Steve... or Adelle and Eve for that matter. Where would we be today?

    This know also that in the last days, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of thier own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy.

    WITHOUT NATURAL AFFECTION, trucebreakers, FALSE ACCUSERS, INCONTINENT (lacking self-control), fierce, DESPISERS OF THOSE THAT ARE GOOD, traiters, heady, (bold in their iniquity), high-minded, LOVERS OF PLEASURES MORE THAN LOVERS OF GOD, from such turn away.

    2 Timothy 3:1-5

    Welcome to the last days! Who's on the Lord's side, whom? Now is the time to show, We ask it fearlessly...

  • nightmare
    Nov. 19, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    Most people who adopt their children out want a good moral mom and a dad for their children.... NOT 2 dads or 2 moms-- this would NOT be fair to the child. Parents should always make certain when adopting out their children that he/she will NOT be placed in a gay home. It should also be in writing.

  • please think
    Nov. 19, 2008 1:57 p.m.

    Far from showing that Californias Supreme Court was wrong to extend the right of marriage to gay people, the passage of Proposition 8 is a reminder of the crucial role that the courts play in protecting vulnerable groups from unfair treatment. Mormons were once such a group and it is not hard to imagine that they could be again. Be wise and think about that for a while...

  • No Worries
    Nov. 19, 2008 2:23 p.m.

    There's the possibility the Amendment will be ruled Unconstitutional-Again.

  • To Lambert
    Nov. 19, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    The people you know that are waiting to adopt have waited for years because they want a baby. Not all children eligible for fostering or for adoption are pink, perfect and infants. Some have heart defects relating to a drug addicted mother or just nature, some have fetal alcohol syndrome, some have renal issues and various other problems. Sorry, but for those children very few are waiting and some that were happened to be homosexual and now are ineligible. Yeah, those kids are better of institutionalized than is a gay loving home? Sorry if I rolled my eyes on that one.

    You also might want too remember that it was Texas, not Arkansas that mass evacuated children from their non-standard homes.

    -volunteer for special needs children in the system

  • TO: Fight for what is right
    Nov. 19, 2008 3:45 p.m.

    Where did you get your information from? It is simply not true, in fact you made it up. It's disgusting. It is people like you who perpetuate hate (and probably the same ones who believe Obama is a Muslim).

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 19, 2008 5:25 p.m.

    For the last time, THIS IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE!!!!! You have every right we do, and I am sick of you and your pathetic sign waving!! Also, please, quit comparing this to segregation and slavery. This is nothing like that. Gender is not a choice, so segregation is wrong. Race is not a choice, so slavery is wrong. But, for the love of Pete, dont try to tell me that homosexuality is something that you are born with. YOu can choose to stop at any time. Please do!!

  • Joke
    Nov. 19, 2008 5:36 p.m.

    The LDS commenters on here who are so sure that homosexuality is a choice, it's completely laughable. You think it's true because, hmmm...you are gay yourself? (in that case, I might believe you) OR your pastor told you so? You read it in a mormon book? you saw it on a mormon tv station? your incorrect idea is certainly not from any intelligent or intellectual training or experience. Those of you who have said so, demonstrate the tragedy of bigotry in its truest form, sadly. And it shows that people in UT seem to be very poorly educated.

  • Mormon Defender 2
    Nov. 19, 2008 5:47 p.m.

    I agree with Mormon Defender, who got his/her facts straight with the voting. I have a couple of things to say to those who are homosexuals or supporters of homosexuals out there who say that if you don't support gay marriage you are violating the constitution by taking away their "right to marry" somebody of the same sex. Well, take a good look at yourselves: shooting out windows at LDS Churches in some areas in Utah, fires at seminary buildings, trying to bann Utah. If that isn't ignorance, I don't know what is.

  • Your Rights
    Nov. 19, 2008 5:52 p.m.

    I believe gay people have the right to decide who they want to date/live with/be with, etc., the right to fair housing and employment (unless working for a church or Christian organization), the right to leave their estate to whomever they please and the right of visitation in hospitals, etc.

    However, marriage is not a civil right.

    You also do not have the right to force others to accept homosexuality as normal, equal to heterosexuality, etc.

  • WORTH READING
    Nov. 19, 2008 6:00 p.m.

    If you really want to understand hypocrisy, turn to the article on this very website regarding the 21 children recently seized from Evangelicals. We can deal with the children in Texas that were seized from Mormons some other time. Both stories completely neutralize your support of Prop 8 and show the religious community to be the hypocrites and bigots that they are.

  • Re: Joke
    Nov. 19, 2008 6:09 p.m.

    What bothers me about people like you is that you label anyone who doesn't buy into your way of thinking as a moron or a bigot.

    Labelling everyone in Utah or all LDS people as brainwashed, uninformed, and bigoted is at least as ignorant and bigoted as those you accuse.

    For the record, the jury is far from in on whether homosexuality is a choice, in-born, or varies according to the individual.

    FWIW, I am LDS living in a Blue State but was educated in Utah and I have done well in my profession and even finished #1 in my Masters' Program here in my new state. So, not everyone from Utah is a poorly educated bigot as you say.

    It seems to me that you are the bigot by labelling an entire group of people a certain way. I also wonder how you and those of your type honestly expect to change the minds of people you've just finished insulting.

  • No Joke:
    Nov. 19, 2008 6:12 p.m.

    Joke said:

    The LDS commenters on here who are so sure that homosexuality is a choice, it's completely laughable. You think it's true because, hmmm...you are gay yourself? (in that case, I might believe you) OR your pastor told you so? You read it in a mormon book? you saw it on a mormon tv station? your incorrect idea is certainly not from any intelligent or intellectual training or experience. Those of you who have said so, demonstrate the tragedy of bigotry in its truest form, sadly. And it shows that people in UT seem to be very poorly educated.


    Actually, there is no definite proof that a gene for gayness exists. It is all hypotheses. Therefore, until researchers can conclusively prove the existence of the gene, you cannot with any verifiable evidence claim homosexuals are born that way.

  • Re re Joke
    Nov. 19, 2008 6:17 p.m.

    I am glad that there is one educated person commenting on here, so you would probably agree then that the people I am referring to do not appear to be educated. I myself AM gay and I am very well aware that it is not a choice in any way and there is not a single person I have met in the gay community who feels it is a choice. I would hope then, you might agree that at the very least it is extremely insulting to be told it is a choice by people who clearly have no clue and no education regarding this matter AND as I said previously, are merely parroting what they've heard in their religious circles.

  • Re re Joke
    Nov. 19, 2008 6:42 p.m.

    I cannot answer for you whether it is a choice or not because I am not you. I do have 3 very good friends who went to counseling because they were sexually assaulted as teenagers by grown men. They struggled with whether they were gay or not. I would hate to see the kind of counseling they received outlawed as their situation seems cleary different from yours.

  • Gays choose
    Nov. 19, 2008 8:00 p.m.

    I know several gays and lesbians who said that it was a choice to be that way. You people need to widen your circle of friends and stop telling the big lie that you don't have a choice.

  • Constitution
    Nov. 19, 2008 11:25 p.m.

    The first amendment prohibits the government from establishing a national church and prohibits the government from interfering in religion. There is no separation of church and state in the Constitution. Marriage is not just religious, the government sanctions it and regulates it. Religions and their people can make their views known just like all Americans. Its called freedom of speech. Stop attacking the LDS church and take a look at your own lives. When you have done as much good as the LDS church then you can pop off, but that will never happen.

  • to 9:16 am
    Nov. 20, 2008 12:18 a.m.

    You quoted the first amendment, but there is not separation of church and state in the Constitution. It just stops government from setting up a state church and interfering in people exercising their religion. Churches and religious people can influence government policy all they want. At least you were honest that you want gay marriage taught in school. Totally confused and illogical, but honest on that point. Marriage is a societal concern, so government regulates it. Teaching gay marriage in schools is just like advertizing it. More people will make the wrong choice to be gay especially if it is taught to elementary students like in Massachusetts. Unfortunately propaganda works, and you want to brainwash children to take your side. Education is great, but false gay propaganda is bad for children and society.

  • History
    Nov. 20, 2008 12:19 a.m.

    The LDS church ended up on the wrong side of the Race as well. One day we will look back at this as another embarrassing moment in the Church's history.

    -even democracy was once a liberal movement-

  • Facts are facts
    Nov. 20, 2008 12:29 a.m.

    to 3:45pm post:
    It is the truth. You may hate the truth, but it doesn't change it. One third of child molestations are same sex done by homosexuals and lesbians. Homosexuals and lesbians are 1-3% of the population. This means that homosexuals and lesbians are many times more likely to child molest than heterosexuals. It doesn't say every gay person is a child molester, but that they are much more likely to commit that crime. This has been reported in the media. Its not to hard to figure out.

  • Look it up
    Nov. 20, 2008 12:35 a.m.

    You same sex marriage types really should educate yourselves more on this issue. There is so much basic stuff you don't know. Many homosexuals and lesbians were molested by same sex predators as children. This is typically a major reason why they choose the lifestyle. I feel bad for anybody who is a victim of this horrible crime, but they weren't born that way.

  • Supporting groups
    Nov. 20, 2008 12:41 a.m.

    One of the problems with the same sex marriage side is that the people they support do not have standards of what is right and wrong. At gay pride events they allow in NAMBLA, the North American Man Boy Love Association and refuse to codemn them. This group has had many of its members convicted of child molestation. They advocate for legalizing gay sex with young children. These are the kind of people you support.

  • to gays
    Nov. 20, 2008 1:45 a.m.

    Homosexuality is a behavior--there is nothing biological about it. There is no homosexual gene. Sorry, there is no third sex; only male and female. You were born from a man and a woman; your own existence destroys your platform.

  • Ark. seizes 21 more kids from..
    Nov. 20, 2008 11:22 a.m.

    Evangelicals!!

    Look at the story on the Deseret News posted on Nov 18th!! You bigots will learn something about what happens when religion enters this realm.

  • Amusing
    Nov. 20, 2008 11:38 a.m.

    It is amusing when LDS members talk about their leaders getting direction from "the lord"....Are you seriously suggesting that the leaders of your church are taking their direction from god?? No wonder most Americans think that mormons are a cult. Is that like when your "prophet" had a 'vision' that blacks should be accepted in your church, coincidentally about the same time as the church was about to lose its tax-exempt status for that very reason. That is communicating with god alright, the god of money and greed. I was interested to read Brigham Young's quote: Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African Race? If the White man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.

    I am sure that you all think this was the word of god too, right?

    My fellow people of tolerance and wisdom, don't waste your time here, a cult is a cult is a cult.

  • Re: Amusing
    Nov. 20, 2008 12:21 p.m.

    Huh?

    Where else would a prophet get his direction? Every prophet in the Bible took direction from God, why not now? If God is "the same today, yesterday and tomorrow," why would He not continue to takl to prophets?

    Do you also consider the Catholic Church to be a cult? The Baptists? Is any church who disagrees with your stance a cult?

    That may be your definition, but certainly not the consensus.

  • Re RE Amusing
    Nov. 20, 2008 1:47 p.m.

    Ill take the bait on that. Everything Amusing said is correct except he should include all religions in it. In my opinion, religion itself is a far greater danger than homosexual marriage ever could be. Religion is silly, no matter what clubhouse of a church you go to. Advocating one over another is senseless. Can we have some rational thought now? Is it even possible to argue an issue without including some alice in wonderland religious point of view.

  • Re: to 9:16 am | 12:18 a.m
    Nov. 20, 2008 3:54 p.m.

    You said: "Unfortunately propaganda works, and you want to brainwash children to take your side."

    Did you baptize your children into your church? Or did you wait until they were 18 and let them make their own choice?? I'd bet you didn't wait.

    Your logic is so far fetched and out of touch with reality, it's simply astounding.

    Oh, and by the way...It's not a choice to be gay.

  • peterandrew
    Nov. 20, 2008 11:07 p.m.

    It's not a choice to be gay. I can tell you that from experience. Unless you're gay, you don't know. You also don't know what it's like to be reviled by so many around you, even if you've never acted on your affections, just because you feel the way you do.

    It IS a choice to be a bigot. Or to open your heart.

    Don't you know that "the letter kills but the spirit gives life"?

  • Question
    Nov. 21, 2008 12:47 a.m.

    Should I believe posters I don't know that tell me that being gay is not a choice or do I belive friends that said they made the choice to be gay? I think I will go with my friends on this one. They are gay and said it was a choice to be that way.

  • Sheryl Swoops
    Nov. 21, 2008 12:53 a.m.

    My friend with a gay son said she made the choice to be a lesbian. Sheryl Swoops, a WNBA player was honest enough to say she made the choice to be a lesbian. There are thousands of other homosexuals and lesbians who said they made the choice to be that way also. Why do you gay poster continue to lie about this lifestyle not being a choice.

  • Children can make choices
    Nov. 21, 2008 1:06 a.m.

    I have made choices all my life. Little children make choices. Apparently only homosexuals and lesbians never make any choices in life. Talk about twisted and confused logic. Stop trying to justify your behavior by saying you have no responsibility for your actions.

    I don't have to smoke to know that smoking is bad. I don't have to be gay to know it is wrong and you are making a choice to be that way. What I have found is that the person who calls others bigots is usually the only one with the bigotry.

  • Oxy Moroni
    Nov. 21, 2008 10:14 a.m.

    To: Question | 12:47 a.m
    and Children can make choices | 1:06 a.m

    I don't believe sexual preference is a choice. You cannot choose who or what you are mentally and physically attracted to. I believe those gay people that say it was a choice simply mean that they have accepted their attraction to members of the same sex and chose to pursue it. People don't just decide one day to be attracted to something. A man could be attracted to a woman, and he chooses to act on that attraction. Does me he chose to be attracted to her? No, he merely chose to act on his desire. Does that mean he chose to be straight? No.

    Can you recall at what stage of your life that you consciously decided, "Well, I think I will like members of the opposite sex?" You didn't, you just knew, it was not a choice you made, you just knew. The same is true for gay people.

  • Oxy Moroni
    Nov. 21, 2008 11:14 a.m.

    Thank you for packaging your "choice" posting in a concise and intelligent way that the haters on here just might be able to understand.

    Also, I believe that the people who posted saying that 'their friends' told them it was a choice are either utterly lying to perpetuate the notion or do not understand what their friends have told them (along the lines of what you said: it is a choice to accept who you are or pretend you can change it. Anyone who actually is gay knows that there is nothing in this universe that you can do to change it). Anyone who is NOT gay (most of you posting on this topic), just shut up because you don't know you are talking about and you cannot possibly...you are not gay. So give it a rest!

  • speaking for GOD?
    Nov. 21, 2008 12:04 p.m.

    is that what the prophet is doing? not in my book. the GOD i believe in is a GOD of LOVE, not fear. Gay marriage does NOT change your marriage at all and it hurts noone. Don't try to equate it with pedophilia or other sex that has victims.

    all this anti-gay rights stuff is born of fear. let your brother live as he chooses (remember free agency? remember your polygamous heritage?)and let GOD judge their hearts.

  • Anonymous
    Nov. 21, 2008 4:48 p.m.

    To those who say it is a choice to be gay:

    I chose to live a gay lifestyle!

    1) It is recognized by the general authorities of the church that being gay is not a choice. (They offer a life of celibacy to gay mormons--and no longer encourage marriage to the opposite sex).

    2) I didn't choose to live the gay lifestyle until the age of 29, after I had dated girls and was unable to feel sexually aroused by them (I have never been able to be sexually aroused by women, I'm probably a Kinsey 9 or 10).

    3) My family fasted and prayed each fast Sunday with my homosexual feelings for 3 years. Occasionally, my extended family held a special fast. My name also graced the prayer circle at the temple.

    4) I went to LDS Social Services for three + years and met with my bishop almost weekly for five years.

    5) I remained a virgin until I was 31.

    6) I attended church and did all I can to remove the feelings.

    The feelings/inclinations never left. It is not a choice to be gay.

    It is a right to be compensated monetarily for being heterosexual.

  • to Anonymous
    Nov. 22, 2008 10:53 a.m.

    Bless you. Regardless of how the Church or other people feel, I bet God loves you just the way you are--gay.

    from a straight woman standing beside her gay brothers and sisters.

  • To : John
    Nov. 24, 2008 9:23 p.m.

    Polygamy WAS part of the LDS church but it was not practiced by everyone and is not practiced by any member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints today. you are thinking of the FLDS people. two totally opposite things. and it is Mormon not Morman.

  • To Anonymous | 4:48 p.m
    Dec. 1, 2008 5:44 p.m.

    Thank you ---

    I don't know why some heteros equate being gay with smoking.

    Really!

    I am also gay and I don't smoke --- and the two cannot be further apart --- poles apart.

    Let me ask you hetero incapacitated ---

    When you look at someone atractive of the opposite sex, do you choose to be attracted to that person or does it come naturally?

    I rest my case.

    You do not choose. Your hormones --- your wiring --- not just your biology --- determines attraction/orientation/identity.

    Heteros that do not see that are too preoccupied with their own notions of what it means to be hetero --- that they don't think that not everyone thinks the way they do.

    We do not choose to be this way.

    Like previous person said --- had we a choice, I would have chosen a life of non-harrassment, non-teasing, non-prejudice for four decades now.

    Have I given the opposite sex a chance?

    Yes.

    And I choose --- and I said it, I choose, not to break anymore hearts of the opposite sex.

    It is not fair to them and it is not fair to me.

    So quit your high and mighty speak.