State's women also No. 1 in many other fertility-linked areas
That is so cool! That means also that in the coming years they will always be a
The interesting thing is that, according to the stats presented, it must
absolutely be the choice/decision of most of these mothers. Stacy (photo)
doesn't exactly look like she was coerced by her husband. Things are changing in
the Church, however. Joseph & Jesse Evans gave a BYU devotional in the late `60s
just after the pill was introduced before he was church president. He told us we
"would be damned if we didn't have all the children we could". I truly cannot
imagine too many talks being given on this subject today, by general authorities
or in Sacrament Meetings. Only the Relief Society General Presidency has the
courage to endure the harassment issued by the media and many women in the
Church today. Members have largely chosen to forget that part of "building the
Kingdom on earth". In those days, it was not uncommon to see many families with
8-10 children. Instead, today we see many more member families living in
spacious homes, owning 3+ cars, wearing costly apparel, very much into
consumption debt, having only 2-3 children. It will be "fun" to read many of the
following comments. Thanks for the informative and assuring article.
Utah has always had a larger than the national average family size - so it can't
be attributed to just one or two factors; like the higher Hispanic population.
I recently completed a college course, Psychology 1100, and found all their
"facts" interesting. If I had many children and had them young, then I had a
lower IQ. As a mother of 7, and with an IQ of 126 and straight A's in all my
college level courses I must be an aberration. Or could some of this negativity
about mothers who have children, young and many, be wrong?
Wow. What a surprise.
"Perlich adds that . . . Utah 'permanently will have more children per capita
than other states.' That coupled with the aging baby boom generation entering
retirement years also means that workers in the state 'will be carrying more
dependents' than most states and make it a challenge to fund such things as
schools."Of course, that ALSO means that as the parents of those
children reach retirement, there WILL be workers to help fund social security,
etc., which will be a problem in other areas with lower birthrates.
Way to go Utah! Children are the greatest!
Higher birth rates have existed in Utah for decades. One cannot leap to the
assumption that the schools system will suffer based on that one fact alone.
The rising rates for leaving the state for employment has an impact. The
economy of the state has an impact. Our society is family-based. Values and
resources reflect that.
Social Security is a national program so unless Utah plans to secede, more kids
in Utah turning into more workers in Utah is only a drop int he bucket for
social security of Utahns.
Is anyone else shocked by this? The only thing shocking about it to me is the
fact that they needed to do a study to find this out.
Yeah but what percentage of Utah babies are born on Medicaid?? Since the local
culture encourages early breeding, most these young couples (LDS and Hispanic)
are not established enough to truly participate in the "can't feed 'em don't
breed 'em" philosphy.
Utah has some of the lowest rates of welfare expenditures in the nation. Thanks
what a mental midget. Breeding? You are a jerk! Breeding is for animals!
Wonderful family news...!
One caregiver per child = one functional family.source: The American
The key factor in the high bankruptcy rate may be the large family size that is
typical in Utah. More children means more financial stress. This could be a
cultural and not purely religious factor, since both Mormon and non-Mormon
families in Utah tend to have large families- it's a family oriented state. In
any case, having 50% more children per adult than the national average clearly
leads to financial stress and higher bankruptcies.
Must be a slooooow news day. What's next? An arctic expedition to look for
Yes, I remember the talks about "reaping the east wing" if you used the pill or
any other form of birth control. You don't hear those talks any more, at all.
Now, we are told to use good judgement, take into account your wife's health
(mental and physical), financial positon, etc. This is the right advice
(finally). Family size has dropped, and that is not all bad. Having kids is
wonderful and to be desired. Supporting what we bring into the world is
important also and I see poor choices made by many people in this area. Good
jobs and good pay are scarce in Utah and I believe it is wise to "plan" your
family size accordingly.
In other news- The Sky Is Blue! This just in: Water is Wet! And the shocking
just breaking revolutionary newsflash: The Earth Is Round!
Children wanted, paid for by parents, stay at home mothers... Can't think of a
more perfect picture. Go Utah!
to Utah. This is old news....
Families and kids are great, however, people need to realize the impact of and
being willing to pay to educate all of these children.
Go Family!!! I can already smell the Haters getting there comments ready!!!
The last organization on earth I want advise from is the American Psychiatric
Association. Bunch of left wing nut jobs over there. Have you done any
research on that organization? Look it up before you spout off about things you
no nothing about.
... Gravity still exists on Earth, perplexing scientists everywhere.
Well, that's good news for the thousands of children who need adoption. I'll go
ahead and warn my parents that adopting a seventh child will make them even MORE
dysfunctional than they obviously already are. :D
People bash us Utahns for having children, yet look at the rest of the world.
They actually pay people in other countries to have children. People can choose
as to whether or not they want children and I respect that, but don't rip on
people that have a lot of children. Just remember, everyone of you is alive
because your parents had you:) Just a thought. I only have one child right now,
and it is the hardest, yet most rewarding thing in the world.
Commendable when these women wait until AFTER they're married to have kids. The
nuclear family is alive and well in Utah.
I think this is an awesome statement about amazing mothers in Utah (and anywhere
else for that matter). I don't know of anything else that is more rewarding,
demanding, and emotionally satisfying as being a mother. I have 5 children
(that I paid for and continue to pay for) and can't imagine my life any
differently. I don't live in Utah, but I was young (19) when I had my first and
I am happily married to all of my children's father. It takes a lot of strength
and selflessness to be a mother. Anyone who says differently obviously has
never been a good parent.
Since when did anyone by the name of Evens become President of the Church????
Get the facts right!TO Bankruptcies and family size: BUY SMALLER and LIVE
What a wonderfull lifestyle the future kids will have.Breathing black
air.Rats in a cage.More crime.Less space for natinal parks,
mountains, less water, more polution of that water.Oceans dying.Where are the jobs comming from? What will they pay?Healthcare?Oh yes, there is lots of open space near Elko.Lets hurry and kill the
earth, so we can move on.To heck with future generations.
More women who are married, educated, financially stable and choosing to have
children are doing so in our state vs national stats! I can't imagine more
Utah's birthrate highest in U.S.?How utterly tragic!
I love big families! :)
Great. I love kids. Now let's provide them a world-class education. We can do
that, but it will take some sacrifice.
I know it's not anything new to hear that there are a lot of children in Utah,
but 15 babies a day at ONE hospital?! It that rates stays consistent throughout
the year, that's more than 5,000 new babies just from that one hospital! Come
on, people, that's insane. No wonder the Wasatch Front is filling up with homes
and strip malls so quickly. I can't imagine the capacity of this valley being
able to match that rate of growth for too much longer. The Earth has already
been "replenished" with people; it's time to start being sensible and stop
having more than two children per couple.
I can't imagine a world where adults outnumber children. It would be a very dull
and boring place.
A couple people already replied but the article clearly said: "[Utah
has] the lowest percentage of births to mothers who receive cash public
assistance." In other words, fewer mothers have babies on welfare in Utah than
in any other state.
What in the world would possess an educated University employee to say this?"It's clear that Mormon culture is what drives it for the most part,"
said University of Utah research economist Pam Perlich, who adds the fertility
rate in Utah is higher than even in Mexico.Wow, higher than EVEN in
Mexico. That's a demeaning statement no matter how you look at it. On on hand
it's a terrible statement about Mexico, implying that they're a third world
country and prone to high birthrates (at least somehow subpar to the US) while
on the other hand it's implying that Utah is behind the times and lagging behind
the rest of the US. No, I'm not Mexican, but to demean an entire country is
completely inexcusable, as it is to imply issues with our wonderful state.Shame on Ms. Perlich for suggesting such issues and shame on the Deseret
News for printing it. We deserve more insight and compassion on such issues
both from our educated community and from our news outlets.
Now if parents could just learn how to control them in public. Not
everyone thinks that crying babies in theaters or tantrums in restaurants and
grocery stores is adorable.
This reminds me of the recent study by the Pew Trust that surveyed the
characteristics of the religious groups in the US. It showed that Catholic
family size was close to the national average, while Mormons had the largest
families. This suggests that Catholic teaching on birth control and marriage is
not followed all that well by many Catholics, and that the more flexible Mormon
approach actually produces more children. Finally, it should be noted that
birth rates are falling all over the world, including in many developing
nations, to the point that population is already shrinking in Europe and Japan,
and would be shrinking in the US but for immigration--and Mormons.
Please think of the environment before palnting too many seeds.
Why is the American Psychiatric Association a bunch of nut jobs? Just because
they don't agree with your points of view? Are you a mental health
Note to the experts: The reason more LDS moms stay home is the same reason that
we have the kids in the first place. The theology that underlies all our
beliefs and values causes us to place a high value on family and a lower value
on stuff. There is no amount of stuff in this universe that would make me put
my six week old baby in day care. It would have to be starvation or that.
Literally.My children are my treasures.No, I'm not low-IQ and
undereducated. I'm a former National Merit Scholar with a degree.
A recent study reported that Caucasians are having so few children that our
numbers will soon put us in the minority. It seems we are disinterested in
keeping our culture alive, well, and into the next millennium. It seems that
Utah, is slightly immune to the trend towards the extinction of the Caucasians.
AND..... Utah has the overall youngest mothers in the nation!Talk
about a baby machine, that starts them young and keeps them going well into
middle age.AND..... Utah has the youngest grandparent population in
the nation!Talk about starting them young and keeping them in the
children game.Utah is the capital of children (i.e. the young
mothers and grandparents) raising children..... which accounts for why Utah also
logs the highest child abuse/neglect problems in the nation.And
don't get me going on the young pre-30's Utah 'boys' attempting to be fathers...
"Utah's birthrate highest in U.S."And in other breaking news, the
Sun is discovered to rise in the East every morning!
Most hispanics are Catholic and there is a high fertility rate there. As for the environment I'd rather have more babies than polar bears. Be
fruitfull and multiplied. Why is every other animal allowed to populate but not
man in the opinion of environmentalists?
While there may be benefits to a growing population, we should look at possible
down sides as well. For example, the air quality along the Wasatch Front is
getting worse. Hopefully people who encourage large families will also
encourage managing resources.
Maybe this explains Utah's highes per capita use of anti-depressants.
Great news! In Russia things are desperate enough to where the government now
pays families to have and raise children. Russians are beginning to understand
something - when you are outnumbered you are in danger of being overpowered. We
need to understand this as well.Having a large family is like driving an
emergency vehicle at a high speed. You can get where you need to go very
quickly, but only if you are being extra careful. Sloppiness results in an
accident. Same with a large family. You have to be extra careful with your
finances. You have to make the sacrifices to take the time to teach good values
to your children. It is a lot of work but it does pay in the end.
I am expecting #6!
I respect the rights of others to have as many children as they want and can
support. However, I wonder how soon it will be before this continued trend
dramatically reduces the quality of life here. If you have ever visited Asia,
with huge and growing populations packed tightly into small spaces, you see
where Utah, and the USA are headed. I am not criticizing those having children.
I respect their choice. The eventual results are obvious, so let's hope we're
aware of the choices we are making, not only for ourselves, but for future
It is just plain common sense to keep the size of one's family small (especially
in these inflationary and unsettling times).Children need to have their
normal attention needs met while growing up.Competing siblings from
overly-large families cannot possibly get these healthy needs met and problems
always appear later on in life for these people.
@ predjudicial statementWhat's demeaning about haveing a culture
that encourages having children. I'm not sure what you are getting at but
having lots of kids is nothing to be ashamed of.@KarlEasy there, you're depressing me. Truth is in the US the air is getting
cleaner, there is more protected land and ocean than ever before and more being
done to prevent further damage. I think we should be more worried
about how we treat each other than how we are treating the earth, but that's
just me.@ EmaYou know they do that in China, and the
people hate it. How about you be sensible and I'll be happy with my kids.@TO STEVEI agree that we should be buying smaller and living
cheaper but there is one thing that simply must be stated.....The
leading cause of bankrupcy in this country is health care expenses, and may who
go bankrupt actually have insurance. Children and the elderly are biggest users
of the health care system. I don't think that this relationship
should be ignored when talking about the high rate of bankrupcy in Utah.
I find it amazing that only one other person wondered when the LDS Church had
a president named Joseph Evans. I don't remember reading about him in any of my
church history books or hearing about him in church history classes. As
for large families, I've never understood the mentality of people who vocally
criticize people for having children - such as the person in Logan a few months
ago who was kicked off public transportation busses for hasseling moms with "too
many" children. Utah's major export is our highly educated young people -
leavening the whole earth.
More American children means more polluters and exploiters of the earth's
resources. Shame on you Utah for your contribution to overpopulation and global
warming. Your should be taxed to purchase carbon offsets!
Functional vs. dysfunctional...No offence, but your comments to not apply to the
LDS crowd. Gratefully, we in the LDS church do not model our families after the
American Psychiactric org. We have our own creed and it works great. 9 times out
of 10, Disfunctional families are a product of disfunctional parenting. That is
where the LDS excel...join up and you will help to stop the vicious cycles.
I'm a 30 year old mother of 5, with a 29 year old husband. I've seen a "pre-30"
man be a father successfully. It can be done, with sacrifice. The rewards are
great. As for the comments about large families hurting the
environment. My husband is one of 13 kids. His family has only ever driven two
cars and they have one city garbage can that is collected from there house each
week. How many 2-3 children families, or no children families even, can say
that? There are two doctors, one nurse, two MBAs, a registered dietician, and
an attorney all contributing greatly to society. I agree that we should take
care of our world, but I'm so sick and tired of people accusing large families
of being a burden. It is certainly not the case from my experience.
Just one more reason to feel tremendous compassion for our LDS brothers and
sisters.It sounds to me that there are those that feel the larger
the family - the closer to God you are.A very sad scenario.
It's great to hear about a group that is not so cynical about the future that
they consider children a necessary inconvenience, to be bred in the lowest
possible numbers. You go Utah! Light the way.
Chance>The LDS do a fine job raising good families. Just remember that there are
others that aren't LDS that also do a fine job. It's natural to
raise and care for our kids. I don't need a Church to tell me how, it comes
naturally....Most cultures and traditional institutions provide a
frame work that helps parents. But the responsibility still falls on the
When a person says "there are too many people on the planet", they are really
saying "there are too many people OTHER THAN ME on the planet". For
real world evidence, take a nice cross country drive to see that "there is
enough and to spare" in this wonderful country. I just passed through Montana
and Washington state on vacation, and can tell you that there is still lots of
room out there. Our problem isn't the quantity of people, it's the
Everyone (other than me) who is commenting on this "story" had better get a job
and a life so they can start dating, marrying, and having children and
success.Your comments, and the fact that you make them at all, are
Condoms are cheaper than children.
I've scanned most of the comments and I did notice lots of "NO DUH!" comments.
But didn't notice anyone asking "HOW MUCH DID THE GOVERNMENT ACTUALLY PAY TO
FIND THIS OUT???" Moocho money to discover the obvious.
I find the typical responses here by the population preachers to be very
arrogant, presumptive and idiotic. My wife just gave birth to our 6th child, and
we aren't Mormon or Utahn and we are not on any kind of public assistance.
Family and esp families with many children are the backbone of a great society.
Read about what the Japanese are dealing with now that their population is aging
and they have the lowest birth rate. What will become of America if our birth
rates continue to drop! Children of large families learn how to share, how to
care; they learn the world doesn't evolve around self. Larger families often
sacrifice material possesions but abound in love and many kinds of happiness.
Children are a blessing from God and it's a geat thing to know that the Lord has
seen to bless me in this way. I commend the Utahns and Mormons for not yeilding
to the social pressure bought on by the anti-children mentality mentality so
prevalent. signed- a Catholic dad
Another example of the short sighted Mormon culture in Utah. People living for
the hereafter and having no regard for the environment nor economics of high
birth rates. Arent 6 billion miracles enough. Having babies should not be an
"Yes, we are a peculiar people." - Gordon B. Hinckley, November 9,
Only part of what you wrote is correct; yes, we are to use good judgment and
take the health of the moter into acct when planning families. But NO, not
financially. We are not told to put it off until more financially secure. If
people did this there would be no children, ever. There is NEVER EVER enough
money in having/raising children! We are also told not to put off having
children in favor of careers, education, jobs. Nothing should take precedence!
These are the words of Sis Beck, RS Gen Pres, who spoke at a recent BYU-I
graduation I attended. Just because it isn't spoken from the pulpits too much
anymore, the Church's position has not changed. To have families is the purpose
of marriage and it states clearly in the Family Proclamation the command to Adam
and Eve to multipy and replenish the earth is still in force today. Children are
an heritage to the Lord, and kudos to the young men and women who have children
in faith and obedience. They will be blessed. People who put it off are not
living up to their responsibilities and it has been made clear there will be
Abortion is cheaper than welfare.
You can already see and feel the "solution" to overcrowding in this state. It
takes the form of telling everyone not on the prevailing-think bandwagon to
MOVE. That will open up housing for future generations including most of Salt
Lake. Then to further encourage others not of like mind to evacuate, attack
them in their home and permanently damage them. This will clear out a lot of
undesirables and open up more housing.The plan is in motion.
When parents can step outside of themselves and realize they cannot possibly
meet the emotional, attention and financial needs of more than enough
children-everyone will be better off.
To Steve -Who are Joseph and Jessie Evans? And when was he president of
the church? Never heard of him, but I don't know everything about your church.
Was someone else the prophet while he was president?
Sadly dysfunction is as alive and well in LDS homes as in any other. Doing
genealogy opened my eyes to the ongoing generations of dysfunction on both sides
of my family. Like attracts like. Sadly the history of marriage in the LDS
culture engendered mistreatment of wives and children in some families. Many of
these groups intermarried and the faulty traditions were passed on. There is a
long trail of heartache and abuse in my family history which we are just
bringing out into the light of day. It is a tough challenge for those of us
today to deal with, but we are and most of us have hope it will end the secrets
and lies and lead to healthier families and individuals. This is a big
challenge for us to overcome.
I love the antidepressant argument. The reality is Utah is not the most
depressed state. It is the state that most gets treatment for depression. Its
the state trying to resolve life's issues with professionals. That's really not
a bad thing.Oh and the population bomb disciples should know it is
such a bogus bumper sticker argument with no real basis of fact or history to
support it. Resources come from human ingenuity. Human innovation has always
been our best resource. If you want more innovation, you need more humans.
Most problems are the result of trying to solve other problems. Life is a fix
it game, we need more fixers. So keep them babies coming!!!
"Competing siblings from overly-large families cannot possibly get these healthy
needs met and problems always appear later on in life for these people."Actually, research shows nothing of the sort. In fact, there is evidence
that children in large families are better-adjusted emotionally and have fewer
behavioral problems than children from smaller families. Of course, maybe people
with larger families tend to be religious and it is the religiosity that helps
people do better behaviorally and emotionally. Either way, large families are
good. The earth has plenty of room for all the kids people want. We just don't
always have room for people to be as wasteful as they are. We should focus on
managing our resources better and taking better care of the earth rather than
worrying about how many children people have.
Didn't marry til I was middle aged & didn't have any children. Still agree with
"Whatever" and disagree with "functional vs dysfunctional" & "To Whatever. I
regulary deal with mental health professionals.
This is good that the people of Utah are so busy!!
Having children is wonderful. What's wrong with having 2-3 children? If you have
a strong need to have more than that, why can't you adopt them? That way it's a
win-win, you get your large family, and children who would otherwise grow up in
a miserable situation get a loving family. Good for society!
Utahns are not The Great Drain on the environment. You might want to attack the
Chinese atheists or various other areas of the world as far more problematic.
Based on recent numbers, Utah might actually be helping the population.
Good for you, Utah! The world needs more children with stable families who are
raised to have respect and love for their fellow men, and for all of God's
creations. Maybe there is some hope for the future after all.
Good for Utah! Too many sophisticats think that there are too many births!Low birthrate = the decline of society. The US currently
leads the free world with a fertility rate of only 2.11 (thanks in large part to
Mormons and Hispanic Catholics). A rate of 2.1 live births per mother is
required to sustain a population. Anything less = decline. The rest of the free
world is below 1.5, but many Muslim nations (NATIONS, not women) average 7 live
births per mother.This is serious business. The trend in government
worldwide is toward entitlements that require a robust working population. As
birthrates fall no one will be around to work and pay taxes - governments and
cultures will collapse or disappear.Youth are the next generation
leaders. USA only has 21% of its population under 15 years of age. UK 18%,
Germany 14%, Saudi Arabia 39%, Pakistan 40%, Yemen 47%. Worldwide
demographics are on the move. Whose ideals and teachings will dominate 50 years
It's only my opinion, but the Plan of Salvation as taught in the LDS Church is
the best "pro-life" argument I've ever heard.
And the Salt Lake valley continues to get a little more crowded, and a little
more crowded, and a little more ...
To those so overly concerned with the environment, overpopulation, etc.. what
makes you so special? If more people being here is bad, why are you still here?
What makes you worth having on the planet, but the next person not?I can always count on comments here bringing a laugh. You haven't failed me
Some view children as a liability. They only measure them by the dollars they
consume. For me, father of five children, all grown, I see them as a source of
joy, love, inspiration, and hope. I worked harder, as most fathers do, because I
wanted to feed my family. I had a purpose that kept me going through the tough
times. I saw siblings help each other. As my children grew they would help their
parents. Now, college educated, they are contributing back to society to help
raise the next generation. For over forty years I've been
unimpressed by the argument that there is not enough. In that time all the
predictions of doom and gloom never came to pass. There really is "enough and to
spare." I have enjoyed reading all your comments.
The counsel from the Church was to avoid ARTIFICIAL methods of birth control
right after the pill came out. There were enough hormones in those to sterilize
a horse. I knew women who did use the pill and iud's and suffered permanent
damage and couldn't have children afterwards. NO where have I ever heard church
leaders say to have more kids than you can handle. Some families max out at 2-3
and some at 8-10. Just know your limits and don't have more than you can afford
to feed, clothe, teach and SUPERVISE.
If God's work and glory is to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of
us (his children) what does that tell us about what our pursuit of happiness
ought to be? My greatest joy has been my children! Not my furniture, not my car,
my job or my house! I feel sorry for people CHOOSE not to have children..highest
form of selfishness!
To the person who said that it's was demeaning to state that Mexico has a high
birth rate-Your criticism is misplaced. She wasn't saying anything
demeaning about Utah women or Mexican women. It is a demographic fact that
developed countries (like the US) have significantly lower birth rates than
developing countries (like Mexico). She was just pointing out that Utah is an
aboration from this norm.She is guilty of implying that the US a
developed country and Mexico is a developing country. This is a fact of
economics and makes no statement about the race or quality of the individuals
who live there.
Just me, but nowadays I'm so grateful for the gift of infertility that gave me
one biological child and one adopted. Having children was the most expensive
and most exhaustive thing I have ever done. If others were honest, I think
they'd also admit that.Being raised LDS, I believed that having
children was absolutely essential in order to be fulfilled and happy. Now being
older and wiser, I realize that I could have been an absolutely AMAZING aunt.
Many of my nieces and nephews could have benefited from some extra love and
attention, but I was just too tired to care. Of course I love my
two kids, and I'm happy to have them, but knowing what I know now, there are a
lot of things I would have done differently. Just wish I had known that their
IS A CHOICE. Not EVERYONE needs to be a parent--some of us could be just as
happy being childfree.
Reading these posts from those who have umpteen children, and from those who
most likely came from the same overcrowded family situation comes this
thought:misery doesn't love company - it demands it.
In response to:Susan | 3:37 a.m. Aug. 19, 2008 That is so
cool! That means also that in the coming years they will always be a rich state.
Actually Susan, increased population is a leading indicator of
poverty and social declince. Utah is a desert state with the second lowest
totals of average annual rainfalls, yet the state has the highest per capita use
of water. In addition to poverty issues, Utahns are going to have to settle for
much browner lawns, among other things.
Actually 2 great papers have already explained Utah's high use of
anti-depressants:1) Latter-day Saints don't "self-medicate"
underlying mental healthcare conditions with alcohol2) Utah is a
standard deviation ahead of the the national average in education level per
household. Latter-day Saints seek out competent healthcare and are treated at a
rate far ahead of the national average- a sign of education.
A few years ago a man named Norman Borlaug began experimenting with using
fertilizers to increase food production in the face of increasing world
population and what seemed certain mass starvation. His invention was to use
anhydrous ammonia, a source of nitrogen plant food that is now credited with
increasing world food supply sufficient to allow over 1 billion people to eat.
It was called the "green revolution". The next "green revolution" is already
here abeit in its infancy. It is called genetic engineering of plants! This new
technology will feed billions more of our Father in Heaven's children and some
believe a "gift" to His children. Those who decry not enough food and
space,perhaps should consider that He who "feeds the sparrows" will not forget
you or your children!
I'm all for Utah's high birthrate and large families,even though not EVERYONE in
UTAH is blessed with such blessings. As a former Utah Teacher, let me help ya'll
out with something:80-90% of Utah families HAVE NEVER been able to
afford to fund THEIR OWN CHILD'S full education. EVER!! SO--think about that the
next time you say that you "paid for your child". Utah mothers are great, BUT
UTAH TEACHERS WHO HAVE TO DEAL WITH "STACK EM' DEEP, AND TEACH EM' CHEAP"
economics, with the constant threat of public funding for private educations (ha
ha--you mean a small tiny amount toward those very expensive private educations)
and charter schools that are "supposedly" better-even though statistics have
repetitively shown THIS IS NOT TRUE,(and don't even get me started on making up
for poor home-schooling) are the ones who should be THANKED for being the SLAVES
for the large families and many children in UTAH. In almost EVERY OTHER STATE IN
THE NATION, teachers are neither paid nor treated as horribly for working their
BUTTS off for SO MANY UNGRATEFUL PEOPLE! So-think about thanking your
local public education teacher, who educates so many, for so little!!
Some have said that "over population" results in poverty. This is not true!
Studies done in most every state have shown that the largest group of people
living in poverty in America are single mothers! The FBI did a study that found
that some 70% of crimes committed in America are committed by young men who have
no father in their home. It would locigally follow that the solution to poverty
and crime is to live the law of chasity and family values! Population clearly
has nothing to do with poverty! God has already given us the cure for poverty is
and always has been the law of chasity! As He has always done, He gives us the
law..our agency and the consequences of disobedience! The consequences of
disobedience to the law of chastity are poverty and crime!
I home schooled my children because of what they WERE leaning at school and it
wasn't because the schools were overcrowded or not funded enough! "Heather has
two mommies" is not a good education! As you can guess, I don't live in Utah,
but I wish I did!
Fifty years ago scientists claimed the earth was heading into an ice-age now its
global warming all caused by humans. We've been hearing about over population
for eons. Obviously the scientists are not in control but a much higer power
is.....more people more inovation,invention and happiness. many today think
their problems come from what others do they are into the blame game. Do you
think that because other people have several children it is inhibiting you in
some way? Grow up and take responsibility and do what you are supposed to be
doing and stop wining about what others are doing. Bless those in our state who
know the wonders of large families....I know plenty of families of 1 or 2
children and they have just as many problems and challeges of those w/more
children....THAT'S CALLED LIFE
Yes there are LDS couples who get married in the temple with no intentions of
having children - their choice no medical reason for them not to try. I know one
such couple and their reason for not receiving these wonderful blessing in their
home? Because they want to focus just on each other and their needs and
wants.B) the reason why there are few low-income families receiving
financial assistance is because if the dad is in the home the family doesn't
qualify for the help. Also the state makes it very hard for single mom's to get
help from them. If the mom knows who the father is she will get little to no
assistance as they will go after the punitive father for child support.And yes the very first commandment given to Adam and Eve was "Be fruitful and
multiply and replenish the earth" it is still in full effect. A
I think what causes poverty is not being smart enough to figure out how to make
enough money to live--either getting an education, having some special talent or
skill, or finding someone else who is willing to support you.
I don't want to hear one word from these over producers of children about how
expensive it is to raise them, feed them clothe them, educate them. And don't
expect the state to help you out. You made them, you pay for them. In fact,
because these people use more resources and social services, they should pay
more in taxes instead of less.
More people means more people there are to pay taxes! The more people who have
children out of wedlock the more taxes will have to go to them, not the other
So many babies no wonder we went from 300 million to 305 million in a few years
yikes so many diapers to change smelly!!
Our ninety plus year old former prophet said it, " At an older age nothing will
give you more pleasure than your posterity."Jesus told us to be like
Him, and for us who believe in modern revelation, and of course continued
revelation since our first father Adam, rearing children is one of our most
important endeavors.We are about to have our fourth, and we can
think of nothing more important, joyous, rewarding and worth it.I am
not a Utah resident but I lived their five years, my wife 2 months.And we see a great reason for having children: to glorify God and be happy.
i I like a lollipop once in a while but I take it out to breath.
Groucho Marks got his TV show cancelled for making that remark! You should be
ashamed of yourself! lol
We will pay for our kids, but did you forget that our kids are going to be
paying for your social security and nursing home stay??
Good report Des News. CWP, former editor would be proud.:)
Terrible, well educated people that consider children a gift from God are having
children. Oh the horror for these children to grow up in loving families in
which he/she is expected to be productive, honorable, and many other positive
attributes. Oh terrible terrible terrible.
The older I become the more convinced I am that Utahns are the most ignorant
people on the planet.They've sold their souls to the organization.
When they've got your soul - they've got you entirely.So, utterly sad!
How do you conclude that "utahns are the most ignorant people on the planet"
when having babies is wonderful for the tax base and wonderful in general. If
you don't like children, don't have them and leave that up to Utahs that do. As
for "souls to the organization", you might be interested to know that Utah is
fast becoming less LDS.
Whether Hey Anon wants to accept this reality or not - we are already deeply
into the age of overbreed.All social and economic problems stem from
way too many people and limited resources, jobs, etc.To turn a blind
eye to this reality (for bizarre religious reasons) is most certainly ignorant
and causing immense problems for those who are limiting the size of their
Those of you against having children are such hypocrits! You enjoy all the
benefits of society without realizing that someone has to do all those jobs that
sustain our standard of living. Without someone bearing children and raising
them in a responsible way our society will truly decline and no one will be
around to take care of you in your old age. Be glad that some people are still
willing to make the sacrifices necessary to raise children. The day will come
when you will wish that you were one of them.
Rwanda's high birthrate was THE leading cause of the 1994 genocide. Read a few
books and studies on it and give the country a visit. It wasn't quite the
Hutu-Tutsi hate war the media has simplified it to.With only a VERY
few exceptions, countries with the smallest populations are among the weathiest
with the highest standard of living. A good example, Norway. Another example in
Africa, Botwana has one of the lowest population densities and is one of the
most stable, developed countries.Utah's climate is very ill-suited
to heavy population growth. Without massive federal welfare (i.e., dam projects)
Utah couldn't have achieved it's current population size. Utah is a prime
example of unsustainable welfare state.
Ask Rwanda:"Utah is a prime example of unsustainable welfare state.
"Wrong. Utah is below the national average for welfare.
No, Mc.Save your arrogant scolding.Nobody is "against having
children."It's those who for bizarre sanctimonious reasons, (or keeping up
with the Olsen's in the ward), are having them again, and again, and again and
...This EXCESS puts a burden on everyone else in the community who limits
the size of their family for the good of everyone else.
Sorry re: Mc 7:57Save your arrogant scolding! Some people ARE
against having children.You think you know why some people have large
families, but you are wrong. It has nothing to do with keeping up with anyone
else. That may be why some of you have large homes, ATVs, several cars, and
other toys, but it's not why we had kids. The so called excess burden that we
put on the community is, in reality, an investment for the future of the
community. Our children are contributing members of society doing jobs that you
depend on for your standard of living. To maintain social security for the
future it will take the contributions of more than one wage earner for each
recipient. Are you contributing enough future wage earners to do your part?
Don't talk about my children being a burden to society. What about the burden
you will be in the future if you don't have children to help when you are
So is arguing like a bunch of children a good idea. Having kids has good points
and bad both for the parents and the society. I mean heck what are you going to
do when you have teenagers yikes. Its all good.
Nonsense Mc.Teachers can't even begin to do the jobs they were paid to do
because of the overcrowding in our system.Overbreeding is pure,
unadulterated selfisness and you know it.
Less is more.Including less children in these unsettled economic times.I thought EVERYBODY could figure that one out by now.
I don't expect or want to convince anyone to have more kids who doesn't want
them. I'm fine with those who just want a small family. Their resentmant of
anyone choosing to have more kids is what draws my defense of that choice. It
is shortsighted to see only the drawbacks of children and ignore the benefits to
our society. Unfortunately, some shortsighted people try to pass laws that make
it more difficult for families in an effort to ease the burden on those without
children. Those of us who realize the need for those children in the future
must stand up for families now or society will be in trouble later.
To suggest that overpopulation of the earth will create valuable new markets is
the stupidest thing I've heard yet - even from Utahns.
WASHINGTON, DCSecretary of the Interior Dirk Kempthorne announced yesterday
that, in order to deal with a growing population that just passed 300 million,
the U.S. will reopen the immense, barren region known as South Dakota for the
first time since it was shuttered in 1931. "Though no human being has stepped
foot on that desolate soil for the better part of a century, we believe it is
the best option for addressing the overcrowding we see in the country's
habitable states," Kempthorne said. "The great, uncharted territory of South
Dakota is henceforth open, with plenty of space for anyone who wants itanyone at
all." According to Kempthorne, if national population continues to grow at this
rate, his agency may consider lifting the federal ban on non-Mormon residents in
In the old days the patriarchs bragged to each other how many wives they had and
how many children they sired. It was a status thing.What stupidity!
And to say that the Earth is in emminent danger of "overpopulation" has got to
be in the top 5 stupidest enviro-wacko opinions on the planet. The idea that
we're in the midst of a Malthusian Catastrophe has been dashed to pieces by
empirical observation and research. People on earth only very
rarely starve because there's "too many people" - there's virtually always
another underlying cause: war, drought, or some other temporary disruption of
normal food supply chains. If population density were really the main
factor driving starvation as so many enviro loons believe, then Hong Kong and
Japan would be constantly in the throes of starvation, and more sparsely
populated places like Rwanda, Siberia, and Libya would be paradises of
plenty.The earth doesn't have too many people; it's that the earth
doesn't always do a good job of getting its plentiful food, etc. to those who
need it. World starvation is not a worldwide supply problem; it is
a worldwide distribution problem.
To all the environmentalists out there you should now that nature will take it's
course. You can't become "overpopulated" because nature will eliminate excess
population somehow. The fact that there are more than 6 billion people on the
earth and the population is still increasing means there is still enough room
for them. If we become overpopulated we will know it.
Neocons always put off certain disagreeing facts until the last possible
moment.Overcrowded cities are one of their disagreeing facts.Meanwhile, progressives are busy sounding the alarm amongst their own
groups and limiting family size not really caring what the overbreeding neocons
do or don't do.
"If we become overpopulated we will know it."Some of us already know
it, and are taking steps to make a change. Wouldn't it be better to prevent
problems we can already envision than to simply allow them to overcome us
because of our failure to act?Of course the world will self-correct
if necessary, but who wants to endure a World War or a widespread famine in
order to "thin the herds"?
Man is the only animal that poisons its own drinking water and breeds itself out
China's second manned space capsule just returned from orbit, paving the way for
a future Chinese moon mission. This may solve China's overpopulation
problem, two people and billions of dollars at a time.
To all those wonderful people who are joyously releasing those little souls into
heaven with child after child, here's something to ponder:There are
more people on earth today than have ever died.
The best counsel I ever got from my LDS bishop/obstetrician was "you owe more to
the children you have, than the children you don't have." Large families are
great, provided the parents don't pawn them off on the neighborhood or ward to
deal with because they can't handle parenting alot of kids. Some people do an
excellent job with lots of kids and frankly some stink at it. Do everyone a
favor and know your limits and act accordingly.
Did you know that the U.S. makes up only 4 percent of the world's population,
yet we have one third of its automobiles and consume one-quarter of its energy
supply? Keep that in mind the next time you get passed over for that big
promotion at work!
"A man's gotta know his limitations." - Dirty Harry Callahan
If we convert the total population growth of 2.5 billion for the first half of
the 21st century to an annual rate of growth, we can expect 54 million
additional people per year to occupy the planet. That large a number still seems
pretty hard to relate to, though, so if we take it down to a per-day figurewhich
would be 149,000 net additional people per dayit'smore
understandable because we can compare it to figures we're familiar with. For
instance, 149,000 is two or three football stadiums worth of people (depending
on the stadium capacity). Maybe that doesn't seem like so many people at first,
but remember how shocked we were when we were told about the death toll from the
December 2004 Asian tsunamiseveral hundred thousand people died. Yet today we're
adding that many new people to the planet's population every two days.
My six siblings and I grew up in a strong LDS happy family that other families
looked up to as having high morals, strong values, and well-behaved children.
Behind closed doors we frequently endured physical and emotional abuse. We
believed our family was unique with this quiet abuse, but have since realized
more families are dysfunctional than they are healthy. Newlyweds are having
babies before they understand their new marital relationship, making their
children grow up along with them. Not a great example of how to get along.
Lazy stay-at-home mothers make their children pick up their slack. Tired, angry
fathers come home after a long days work to have to raise his kids because his
wife was unwilling to. This is spelling disaster. Im not against multiplying
and replenishing the earth. I am against having children before you are
responsible and before you have prepared for this great blessing. Children come
into the world innocent and wonderful; a happy, healthy marriage is an
absolutely essential foundation for them. Making them suffer because you were
anxious to start is heartbreaking and can inflict serious damage. Kudos to all
the families who did do it right; you have my utmost respect.
The earth is a "closed system," meaning that we have to recycle or store all of
the wastes we produce, and until we establish the Mars Alfalfa and Mining
Colony, we only have one planet's worth of land and water to provide resources
for agriculture, energy, and other needs. How well we do at these two
factorsresource use and pollution managementbasically depends on two factors:the number of people on the planet; and the average amount of
resources available (per person) and the average amount of pollution produced.
In basic terms, the average global standard of living is directly related
to the resources available. The health of the planet (in terms of pollution) is
related to how much stuff, on average, each person uses. The total impact we
have on the planet, therefore, is roughly the total number of people times the
average standard of living.
There have never been more people on Earth. There have never been more cows on
Earth, nor pigs, nor chickens. We are using more pesticides today than at any
other time in history and we are losing a greater percentage of the crops. At
the same time, there has never been less clean water on Earth. There has never
been less available topsoil, nor fewer fish, nor fewer mature trees. There has
never been less cause for optimism for the future of the human race. Our natural
resources are disappearing at an unbelievable rate, and our so-called leaders
offer only cosmetic solutions. The Earths population calls for more of
everything while the Earth demands time to recover from years of abuse. ~
Nearly all global problems are made worse by overpopulation. We have wars
fighting over scarce resources and territory. We destroy the habitat of
every other species, pushing them to extinction. In India alone the population
increases by 20 million every year. These people have to live and farm
somewhere. The increase wont stop until all the wildlands are gone. Which do we
really need more of on earth? humans or the other species? Dealing with
the pollution of our industries and fecal waste is compounded by overpopulation.
Plagues thrive in overcrowded conditions. We are rapidly depleting
our non-renewable energy reserves. Every person in the developed world consumes
40 times as much as in the developing world. As the huge populations of the
developing world demand the fruits of development the energy and resource needs
Americans tell me that it is not their fault the world is overpopulated. The
fault lies in Asia and Africa where people have large families. Yet each
American consumes 11 times the resources of someone living in Asia or Africa.
Americans import these resources from all over the planet. Every American kid
counts as 11 kids in terms of burden on the planetary ecosystem. Not only do
Americans need to reverse their population growth, they must reduce their
ecological footprint. Each American woman has about 2.07 children, equivalent to
a family of 23 children in terms of drain on the ecosystem.
Corporations have magnified the power of human greed to widen the wealth gap.
They have encouraged conspicuous consumption. Religions are still goading their
adherents to breed faster than any other sect. At the same time the power of the
earth to sustain is waning through the end of oil (upon which the green
revolution is based), the erosion of soil, pesticide and chemical contamination
of soil and water, urban sprawl into the prime farm land, and global warming
which is destabilising climate and rain. Too many things have to go right
for us to get out of this one without massive pain. It is just not going to
happen. Most of the world are like pigs in a trough trampling the environment
not thinking about anything other than their immediate gratification.
Two country doctors out in the hills of West Virginia were discussing the
population explosion in the world.One physician says, "Why, Bubba, thiseyer
crazy birth thang isa gettin' so bad that perty soon, they ain't gonna be room
for ever'body! There'sa gonna be standin' room only on this here planet!"The
other doctor replied, "Heck, that sure oughta slow 'em down a bit!"
Progressives limit family size:Good. If all liberals limit family size or
just don't have children due to alternative lifestyles, then conservatives
values will be passed on to more children as conservative parents continue to
have larger families.Happy Families?:I'm sorry your experience
in a large family was not good, but I disagree that "more families are
dysfunctional than they are healthy." While no family is perfect I think most
are more healthy than dysfunctional. Also abuse can happen in small families
just as often, if not more than large families. I do feel it is important to
know your limits, emotionally, physically and financially.
So, when I'm an old dude, I can say, "China used to be the most populous
country." Yes, India, within 50 years is expected to overtake China as the most
populous country. And you think outsourcing is bad now...
Most people don't spend a lot of time worrying about population growth or
biodiversity in the ecosystem. They fret over the crime level on local streets,
worry about the education of their children, and guard against environmental
declines in their local streams, air, and parks. National and global issues are
thought of only in abstraction; it takes a local, personal impact to motivate
most people to action.Our exploding population does have a direct
effect on people's daily lives, and overpopulation is a local issue, but the
connection is not always obvious to people. I've seen firsthand the glazed look
that crosses a face when the issue of overpopulation is raised. But start
talking about the rippling effects of overpopulationsprawl, traffic congestion,
loss of green space, crowded schoolsand the same faces become engaged and
No apology necessary. I learned a lot of what not to do, which may have been a
hard lesson, but it was very effective. I was not clear in my posting: I
know that any size family can be happy regardless of if they are large or small.
I agree with you that it is important to "know your limits, emotionally,
physically, and financially". Most people havent grasped that concept. I
greatly admire the people that have and I am grateful when I can use them as
personal examples and resources. It may be a pessimistic view to believe that
more families are dysfunctional than healthy, but I do feel it's true. I agree
that no family is perfect, but I know that so much more can be done on the part
of the parents to make life better for their offspring. Dysfunction can have
many different faces, some more severe than others. I am optimistic that most
can improve significantly with more care, attention, and accountability for
one's actions and that few people are beyond hope. LOL, on the other hand, I
would be delighted to be wrong about my pessimistic view. I have been wrong
If you figure in the universal principle of karma:what goes around - comes
around,then those people who think nothing of having umpteen children are
destined to return to this existence as beggers in Calcutta.You reap
what you sow.
We Must Preserve The Earth's Dwindling Resources For My 12 Children.Though it seems like a far-off nightmare, this terrible vision of limited
resources is all too possible. Would you want to live in a world where my 12
children had to endure such horrible deprivations? I know I wouldn't.My children are the future. And at the end of the day, isn't it familymy
familythat truly matters?
We must take steps immediately to devise safe, alternative energy sources that
my future offspring can safely consume. If we don't develop new fuels now, there
will be none left for those who issue from my loins to burn and continue to burn
for all time. I don't want my 625-odd great-grandchildren to have to wait 20 or
30 precious seconds for their toilets to flush. I don't want their 3,125
children to live in a hellish society where they cannot own their own
snowmobiles. And I shudder to think that my 15,625
great-great-great-grandchildren may not be able to have TVs in every room that
they can leave on all day and all night. Is it our right to deny my progeny of
their gargantuan RVs and motorboats, as well? Of course not.
LAGOS, NIGERIA Emergency-management personnel are calling the population
explosion that ripped through this already densely populated coastal city last
week "an unparalleled natural disaster" and fear the mounting life toll will
only grow as tiny bodies are discovered among the human wreckage. "It's hard to put into words what we're seeing here," said Dr. Marceline
Klurfeld, a World Health Organization pediatrician who was assisting in relief
efforts but found herself "utterly helpless" to stop the senseless beginning of
human life she saw unfold around her. "You can't comprehend the effect that a
wave of impregnation of this magnitude can have on a country like Nigeria. The
long-term consequences are yet to be seen, but I fear it won't recover from this
disaster for decades, if ever."
Thanks to the efforts of so called well meaning individuals to discourage
large families, they have put some parts of the world in danger now.To maintain long-term population stability, a societys women must bear an
average of about 2.1 children per lifetime.Europes total fertility rate
(or TFRbirths per woman per lifetime) is about 1.4. While the United States is
2.1The difference between a TFR of 2.0 and one of 1.5 or 1.4, other
things being equal, is the difference between virtual long-term population
stability and a population that shrinks by almost a third with each passing
generation.Countries in critical population decline include Germany
1.41, Hungary 1.25, Italy and Spain 1.30, Japan 1.22, Ukraine 1.25, Poland 1,27
If something is not done soon to bring these numbers up, they will have reached
a point of no return . They will be replaced by immigrating populations who
have higher TFRs
I've read most of these alarming posts with some amusment. Where do all of you
live who say that the neighborhood takes care of the excess children of some
families? In my cul-de-sac all the children are outside playing with each other
all day with parents watching them closely.Where do all of you zero
population people come up with your fantasies that we are running out of
"stuff"? What's your source of information? Liberals and all of
their abortions will take care of the overpopulation that the US might encounter
according to your theories....There isn't one thing that one of us
can do to stop the will of the Supreme Being who organized each one of us;
nothing. When it's time for this world to end, it will end regardless if you
drive a hybrid or a Hummer.He who ways and thoughts are higher than
our said, "the earth is full; there is enough and to spare"...I
think I'll listen to Him and not you "the sky is falling people"....I've never seen such venom aimed at a group of people as what manifests itself
on these boards each day.Anonymous, etal, You must be miserable...
Your attitude (along with millions of other Mormons and Evangelicals)who are
helplessly waiting for God to step in and save or destroy the world are one of
the biggest problems facing our nation. People with your attitude vote to "do
nothing" when we really need to "do something." Ever hear the saying, "God
helps those who help themselves?" Also how many, many, many years have people
been waiting for Christ to return? Still hasn't happened, has it? What if He
decides not to come?
It would be great to see this information used to solve demographic needs in the
world, particularly in those countries currently experiencing demographic
crises, such as Eastern Europe. With the international skills that many Mormon
and Utahn young people have obtained through missionary and other experiences,
perhaps some collective incentives could be arranged with needy countries for
their skills and positive impact on population growth?
We should:continue to strive to reduce suffering by combating
disease and poverty around the world; continue to improve resource
efficiency and pollution control so that standards of living can rise without
negative impact; and keep human population to numbers that are
sustainable. On the population front, that means:making sure
people around the world have access to family planning services; empowering women in developing countries economically, socially, and legally
in a manner that results in them having an equal say (with their husbands) in
reproductive decisions; modifying school curricula to include information
on population levels and implications for the future; reforming tax laws
in a way that encourages couples to have no more than two children. (They would
still be able to have as many kids as they want, but the tax code would no
longer subsidize more than two.) People are a good thing, but population
growth without limit is not. Come on Utahns. Start doing your part.
I have 3 kids and I feel a big reason why Utah has such a high birthrate is
because people aren't so caught up with their own agenda here as much i.e. going
out to bars every other night and partying, women here tend to focus less on
career status and more on family status, etc.I think it's awesome.I
get a little concerned when I see two parents working jobs to support their 8
children, that's going a little out of controlThere are 7 kids in my
family, but my dad was a successful physician and allowed my mom to stay at home
and take care of all of us, and that's the way it should be!Kids are
great! Way to go Utah!!!
You are never going to read any post from a person who is from a huge family or
has a huge family of their own (or both) that suggests it's not a bad idea to
limit the size of the family.Nevertheless all it takes is 5 minutes
out in traffic or seeing that huge graduating class of last year grow even
larger the following year to realize we have a potential problem.
Limit the tax deduction to only two children.People can STILL have a
gazillion kids if they want but will no longer depend on big government giving
them a handout or giveaway in the form of subsidizing them all.
The earth is not going to be overpopulated. People can have kids if they wants
kids. If you don't want a bunch of kids.... then don't. It's really not that
difficult. Live and let live.
big government and big families:"Limit the tax deduction to only two
children."Fair enough. The government should neither penalize nor
subsidize large families. It is none of the government's business how many
children I have as long as I take care of them.I have to confess
that I used to be one of those overpopulation gloom and doomers. I once fancied
myself the "open-minded" type. My phony superiority flattered me into believing
the myth of overpopulation. I was Eurotrash. The truth is, I was an idiot.Let us just say that I had a change of heart. I am forever grateful to
God for that change. I love my wife and children more than life, and it pains
me to see others throw away and discard that which has brought me more joy than
I ever knew I could have.I used to buy the "less is more" rhetoric
until I realized that if 2 children is "more" in one generation, then 1 will be
"more" in the next one. Each succeeding generation you get fed a guilt trip for
a size family which would have been fine in the previous one. When does it
what we can do:"modifying school curricula to include information on
population levels and implications for the future; "Enough of this
modifying the curriculum to brainwash them on your philosophy. Look, our
children need reading, writing, arithmetic, history, science, and critical
thinking skills, not an indoctrination camp--especially on the public dollar.
My children don't need this tripe. They need to learn how to learn, to learn
how to think critically, how to analyze, and how to develop necessary skills.
Why create a propaganda lesson that in a back-handed way tells the children they
shouldn't be alive?
Have as many offspring as you'd like.Just don't expect your fellow
taxpayers to pick up the tab for your anti-social overbreeding habits.Less is more. It works oh, so much better that way.I thought
EVERYBODY knew that.
To Observer @ 9:29 pm 8/19Making families with more children pay
more taxes creates a disincentive to having children. Many posters here have
already explained how this would lead to declines in our population, reduced tax
revenues, and declines in our ability to compete in the world market.By the way, having to spend more to feed, clothe and educate my 5 kids means I
already do spend more in taxes - sales and use taxes - which is only partly
offset by the tax breaks I get from the IRS.And I agree, it isn't up
to anyone else to help me with those expenses. It's presumptuous and bigoted of
you to assume that large families are all holding their hands out. Shame on
We, who purposefully limit the size of our families for the greater good have to
pick up the lion's share of taxes while you brag about how many children you
have and how wonderful you are for it.Shame on you.
to Progressives limit family size @ 1:28 PM 8/21Ahh, there it is.
"Neocon". The label applied to everything the LDS church espouses and its
members embrace. Also used to brand anyone who claims to be following a higher
calling, especially one that most liberals disagree with.This term
is typically used as a synonym for "Fascist" or "neoNazi"."Progressive" is also ignoring a fact. Actually, it is one factor in the
overcrowding of many areas. People live there because they WANT to live there.
No, not all of them. But when someone grows up and leaves their home, they have
the opportunity to move away from the city. Cities become overcrowded because
people like "their" city, or they prefer the opportunities there to those
elsewhere.If people having large families are causing such
overcrowding and stretching our resources so thin, how come obesity is at its
worst in this country now???
To happy families? @ 2:33 8/21I would LOVE to see some kind of proof
that the majority of large families are dysfunctional, as your post seems to
state. I really have a hard time believing that. I don't doubt the number is
larger than most folks let on, but the majority? Come on.You do
have my sympathies (not my pity, that would be rude) for the problems in your
family. I also grew up in a large home - me, one half-sister, 3 step-siblings,
and three adopted siblings. It wasn't easy, we all had to pitch in. But most
of us learned self-reliance, personal responsibility, and how to get along with
others.Your message also seemed very disparaging of stay-at-home
mothers. I've known several in my life, including my mother, my mother-in-law,
and (after 10 years working) my wife. I don't know anyone who has ever seen
them who could honestly call them lazy. Some stay-at-home mothers are as you
describe, but don't paint them all with the same brush. That's not fair.
overpopulation with destroy our utah paradise. As far as I am concern ... it
already has. Please, breeders, slow down.
Those of you who call couples having children "breeders" are showing your
disdain for children and families. You fail to recognize the contributions of
strong families and assume that having several children means being a drain on
society. You are shortsighted and offensive, thinking only of yourself, and yet
not thinking about yourself enough to realize that in your old age you will
depend on the social security contributions of the very children you would
rather not be born. I hope your one or two children are prepared to give you
all the care you will need in old age, because one report I read said that there
are not enough people to work in nursing homes for all the baby-boomers
approaching old age.
Those with ridiculously large families should be eternally grateful for those
who purposefully limit the size of their familes for the greater good and are
picking up the tax tab for those who breed like rabbits.Instead of
incessantly whining they should be thanking the rest for the following
socialistic programs made available for their children:Postal
SystemPublic SchoolsPolice DepartmentsFire DepartmentsPublic LibrariesMilitaryInternal Revenue ServiceSocial
Securityetc. etc.And these mega-large families from Utah are
usually the biggest whiners about how terrible social programs are.
Control of our species reproductive drive is the central survival issue our
species must solve if Homo sapiens is to be a successful evolutionary
experiment. Solving the issue will require the cooperation of all human beings.
We are not doing very well.
"Have as many offspring as you'd like.Just don't expect your fellow
taxpayers to pick up the tab for your anti-social overbreeding habits. "I never said I had many children and I never said that the taxpayer had
to subsidize them any more than any other person. The fact is, I have only 2
children. However, I will not have anybody making that decision for me or
anyone else. I believe that the government should neither penalize, nor
subsidize. No population control in either direction is my view."Less is more. It works oh, so much better that way. "By that
measure, the couple that has none has the most. What reason do I have to
believe that your life works so much better in the first place? What reason can
you give me that would convince me that I would want to be like you?
Many people will find it difficult to compare human populations to rat
populations. Many humans will suffer for that cognitive impairment. When a pair
of reproductively competent rats are placed in a closed space and provided with
sufficient food, they will reproduce and reproduce until the space is filled
with rats. At a critical density, wars break out. Some rats, alpha males, claim
territory and defend it. Others attack. Sound familiar? Only difference between
rats and humans is the language-making capability of the human left brain. We
humans give names to our territories"World Trade Center" is one.
And this is just the beginning. World population stands at over 6 billion now.
Projections differ on how high it will go. At one point it was projected to top
out at 15 billion. Then it was reduced to 13 billion. The latest numbers I have
seen are 9 billion. This will happen in the next 25 years. What happens after
that? Mass die off. Its a fact of population biology. Eventually the bacteria on
the Petri dish use up all the resources and die. We live on a spherical Petri
dish. Almost all the resourcesremember that "living space" is a resourceare used
up. As groups led by alpha males come into unavoidable contact with each other,
I can't believe anybody would justify having seven children, let alone try to
convince anybody that it is to their advantage that you had them. If your
children attended public education for 12 years in Utah, it would cost about
half a million dollars for that education. I doubt that your property taxes over
that time period covered that much money. That difference was made up by people
like me who pay property taxes. Until recently, if they participated in school
sports, that was covered by taxpayers like me. If your children decide to
reproduce at the rate you did, while maintaining a middle-class American
lifestyle, the price goes up exponentially. I don't care that your children are
gainfully employed and pay taxes. Unless one of them develops a formula for cold
fusion or a new strain of wheat that grows in salt water, I probably won't
benefit from your children, and as they reproduce, they will only keep costing
me more money.
First its fresh waterThen its not enough good foodThen energyThen spaceThen clean airThen societal breakdownsThen more
crimeThen its wealth vs povertyWant more?
The earth is finite. Its ability to absorb wastes and destructive effluent is
finite. Its ability to provide food and energy is finite. Its ability to provide
for growing numbers of people is finite. And we are fast approaching many of the
earths limits. Current economic practices which damage the environment, in both
developed and underdeveloped nations, cannot be continued without the risk that
vital global systems will be damaged beyond repair.Pressures
resulting from unrestrained population growth put demands on the natural world
that can overwhelm any efforts to achieve a sustainable future. If we are to
halt the destruction of our environment, we must accept limits to that growth. A
World Bank estimate indicates that world population will not stabilize at less
than 12.4 billion, while the United Nations concludes that the eventual total
could reach 14 billion, a near tripling of todays 5.4 billion. But, even at this
moment, one person in five lives in absolute poverty without enough to eat, and
one in ten suffers serious malnutrition.
To all the people worried about Utah's births overpopulating the universe and
costing them money...you would be REALLY glad the next time there's a
conscription - those families will pay far more than their fair share for your
selfish butts - but of course you won't notice then either because of that same
selfishness.On another note - the bankruptcy and welfare rolls are
lower than they otherwise would be because of the Church's welfare program.
There would be a lot more of both without Church assistance.
Wonderful news!! Countries like Germany, Italy, and Russia are in big
population trouble right now. They aren't having enough children to 'resupply'
the population. They're basically dying out and so is their economy.Keep making babies Utah!! Don't let down lol, do it for the economy and well
being of the future!
If ya cant feed'em, dont breed'em!(No need to make this more
complicated than it should be)
highest birth rate + lowest taxes collected = lousy educationthe
lowest tax collection is because families have 40 kids then deduct them all on
their taxes and let others try to pay for their kids eduction. Go figure.