in the LDS church often make me cringe when I hear them speak. As I listen to
them it is apparent that so many of them have never lived overseas or have been
exposed to any other culture. One spa=eaker years ago spoke on her daughters
dating habits and driving the car to her prom. I wonder how many women and girls
in Taiwan, or South America could remoely identify with her talk. The problem is
that many LDS Utahns tend to project thier culture to the world and expose thier
Let's get one thing clear here... The LDS church is not a democracy. If you have
a problem with the doctine either get over it or leave, it's that simple. The
doctrine of the church comes from God, not from men, so who are men (and women)
to question the authority and doctrines of God? Come on people! You can argue
and 'discuss' all you want, but that will never change the facts or the church's
stand on issues. Sister Beck's talk was inspired and would not have been allowed
in conference if it was not directly in line with the church's teachings. I find
it interesting that a mere 500 women who have taken issue with this talk are
getting such media coverage when there are over 5 or 6 million women in the
church and the rest of us were uplifted by this talk and grateful to hear it.
The article states that the panel discussed that Sister Becks comments:"narrow the role of women in the church by minimizing the contribution of
those who don't have children and stay at home to raise them" I
would also question the contribution of someone who DOES NOT have children yet
STILL insists on staying home to raise them...Not because I think
they're lesser people, but because something fishy must be going on...
I think the problem here, is that there are many people that are looking for an
excuse to be offended. Sis. Beck's talk was directed, specifically to MOTHERS.
The topic of single mothers and contributions by women--throughout history--has
been addressed by leaders on previous occasions. Sis. Beck wanted to address
MOTHERS, and their role in raising and nurturing children. You're looking
beyond the mark. Sis. Beck's talk did not mention working mothers, single
mothers, single women, or divorced OR widowed women. Her remarks were directed
at MOTHERS. It is hard to believe that you people could spend several hours
dissecting a twenty-minute talk. Don't you have more to do?
As a non-Mormon, I found her talk to be excellent. The lady is right on the
money. It is feminist ideology and liberalism that has contributed to the decay
of America for many years. If mothers would listen to this woman - not just
Mormon mothers, but ALL mothers, our country and our children would be much
better off. Women have more "power" then they realize, and that power shows
years later when their children grow up to be good men and women - or "not". Motherhood (and fatherhood) are the most important "jobs" people can
undertake. A man (woman) may be CEO of the biggest corporation, but when all is
said and done, all that remains (on Earth) after they are gone are their
children. The people who complained about what she had to say should
just get a life. No one is forcing them to read/listen to her comments.
Sister Beck is in a leadership position but she is not the prophet or an
apostle. I don't see her words hold the same weight as thiers.I can see
what she is saying but a more sensitive approach to the situation could work a
"Aagard was approached by several audience members in the hallway after the
presentation, defending her right not to be offended by what church leaders say
about her role. One man told her, "You're a slave and you don't even know
it.""Typical hypocrisy from a so-called open-minded liberal!
I hope the responses that this article are sure to generate in this comment
section are enlightening. This is a great topic to consider. Often, so much of
what it written here is said with such vitriol and anger against the LDS church
that the messsage loses all its potential meaning in a rush of negative
emotions. Folks, how about thinking first, then writing, and let's get a good
dialogue going here. And remember, th fact that someone has a different opinion
than your doesn't make yours less valid or theirs wrong.
Some people just can't see the eternal perspective can they? They want worldly
achievements that won't mean anything in the after life...
Does anyone recall men acting this way after being chewed out by one of the
general authorities in the church? Ive been to a lot of priesthood sessions and
there seems to always be at least one talk from someone telling men to grow up,
honor their priesthood, and start acting like men. These talks, while making
many men uncomfortable, usually motivate the majority of attendees to be better
fathers, husbands, and priesthood holders. Women get a similar talk and they
fall to pieces. For years Ive thought the female members of the church were more
mature and the church would fall apart without them. Maybe I need to reconsider
I am glad that this topic was brought up. As an Active LDS man, I was troubled
by the original 07 talk. A women's spiritual credit rating is not
determined by the number of offspring and BYU grads she raises.
As a father who washes dishes, changes diapers, and reads stories to my
children, I am grateful for words of encouragement by Sister Beck for my wife of
seven children. On a daily basis, I see what an incredible sacrifice it is for
her. Society seems to only validate women whose lives are centered outside the
home. I recognize that many women can't have children, and are in the workplace
whether they want to be or not. And clearly many of these women are accomplished
professionals. But all of that should not diminish the incredible work done by
women who are having children and rarely get any validation for doing so.
You're dreaming if you think 5-6 million women heard that talk. It's
significant that 500 women have risked their membership to talk about how they
feel.You are absolutely correct about the content not being allowed
if it wasn't directly in line with church teachings. All talks are vetted
beforehand. Interesting that. If the speaker was chosen by inspiration and
prepared their talk by inspiration then I suppose it's just good form to
This is a perfect example where we are called to be in the world but not of the
world, we can't secularlize the role of womanhood, nor manhood. There are God
ordained roles that are completely equal in necessity and importance. Families
are central to God's plan, through the restoration we learn that God blesses us
individually in helping us become more christlike, but also blesses us as
families. We are called to be good sons, daughters, mothers, fathers, etc. The
family is so important to God, and because its so important to God, it should be
equally important to us. Satan's greatest weapon is to attack families, to
break them up with pride, anger, selfishness. To tear them apart with
immorality by breaking law of chastity. Instead of fighting within about what
offends us, we should be uniting together to defend the family, to defend the
roles of fathers and mothers, to defend the sanctity of marraige, the
responsibility of taking care of children, to live the higher law. God is such
a loving heavenly Father and I'm so grateful for his Gospel and this church that
remains steadfast in an unsteady world.
Thank you Sister Beck for your inspired conference address. The fact that it is
stirring so much discussion among these women is evidence that this was exactly
what was needed to be said. You are an inspiring leader and your address was a
I am happy to have my wife work. I lost out on two tenure track positions at BYU
because they were being pushed to hire females. Now, I get to send the kids off
to school and meet them when they come home. While most men are commuting, I'm
playing basketball with the kids. What a deal!
Teaching the ideal does one of a few different things. 1) it draws the ire of
those that don't believe that it is the ideal, 2) it makes some who don't live
up to the ideal feel guilty, and 3) it makes others who don't live up to the
ideal want to strive towards it. This article describes all three responses.
Clearly, Church leaders are hoping that people will respond in the third way,
while knowing that many will respond in one of the first two ways. However,
don't expect Church leaders, like anyone else who strongly believe they are
right, to change their tune.
Sister Beck's talk sopke of an ideal way to mother. Something to strive for. I
don't live the ideal she was talking of even though I'm a mother. I work and my
husband stays home (working frelance). I wasn't offended by her talk in the
least bit. I think people will always look for ways to criticize and she is
unfortunately the recipient of the criticism.
To "Women-Leaders". Your comments were based mostly on asssumptions. People
with your frame of mind and attitude will always look for the negative as you
have done. To "I sustain Sister Beck and Bear Hug "- Bravo to you enlightened
women and I ditto everything you said. We do know what is right and will never
compromise what we know to be true. We just have to pray for these women who are
choosing to question what is good in our lives. Hopefully their eyes will be
opened and their hearts softened.
I feel that church members have given too much weight to Beck's talk. Many
church members take everything said by leaders as coming straight from God. Any
thinking church member should know that the Lord doesn't really have much to do
with his own church. The Lord isn't a micro-manager, or even much of an
interventionist. He leaves just about everything up to the discretion of the
called leaders who are human and make just as many mistakes as everyone else.
Church leaders even sometimes teach things that aren't true, or try to pass off
personal opinion as law. The Lord gave us all brains to be used. He doesn't
want us to be drones who just accept every little opinion from our chubby bishop
on up. We should use our brains to sift through all the garbage fed to us to
find and grasp the meaningful truths that present themselves on occasion.
She teaches the correct principle, the details are up to you. Chill.
As an LDS man, I am not so interested in the issue of whether Mormon women
choose to have advanced degrees and run corporations, or choose to be
stay-at-home mothers.However, I am very interested in the issue of
whether Mormon women are adults that intelligently do what they think is best,
happily accept full accountability for their decisions, and kindly ignore what
anyone else says about it.Anyone complaining about what Julie Beck
said hasnt yet achieved that maturity, IMHO.
Oh, but every mother in the LDS church is being judged by Ms. Beck's words and
is judging herself. My sister is about insane from trying to live all the
shoulds of the LDS faith. I worry for her mental health as her anguish in not
measuring up continues to plague her. She's a good mum in my opinion, but
according to the stick she's being measured with she fails on several fronts so
she beats herself with it. She's not alone in this behavior, check out a lot of
the neghborhoods around here.
I sustain Sis. Beck, too. Everything she said was in keeping with the
Proclamation on Families, which I believe came from God. If you don't think it
came from God, then you don't believe that a prophet of God leads this Church.
Sis. Beck was giving counsel to mothers this time, but I've heard many other
talks and Ensign articles that counsel single women in the Church. I don't
resent those talks because I am not single. If they don't mention mothers when
they talk about the accomplishments of single women who have been able to do
great things, I don't feel slighted and demand that they include motherhood in
every talk. I respect what many single women have done to contribute to society
in ways that I couldn't do while raising children, but I have no regrets and
have great joy in what I am doing. I have often found that respect does not go
both ways and some are openly disrespectful with comments like the man in the
article, which demean not only the person but motherhood itself.
When I heard Sister Beck's talk I thought she must know my mother because she
described her in detail. Our family, our community and the world is- has been-
and will continue to be blessed because I have a "mother who knows".
You LDS women that get offended so easily need to humble yourselves and
understand and accept your role. Sister Beck knows her role and plays it very
well. Please follow her example.
The message is for all women in all places, times, and circumstances. LDS
leaders clearly define the role of motherhood, because that is the revelation.
It is not to the exclusion of other roles attained for temporal fulfillment. But
let's face it, there isn't a great demand for doctors, attorneys, etc. of either
gender in the next world, according to Mormon theology. Motherhood
is the essential role in this life fulfilling the ordinances and covenants,
which lead to eternal life. Women subjected to other roles through circumstances
beyond their control are exempted and not demonized by Church. Simply put,
motherhood is the prime focus in this life. Men can play the same
game, Fatherhood is the prime role for men and that's restrictive. But men also
know fatherhood is not going to work without accomplishing other things to
support it. . Auxiliary roles do not void the preeminence in the
divine warnings. Motherhood and fatherhood are the unambiguous, unequivocal
goals in this mortal experience; all things being equal. If they are not
achieved when one is able to achieve them, then so be it. Yet, if they can be,
the rules are clear to everyone.
People, people, people... Did you listen to the same talk that I did? Nowhere
did it say that we were just supposed to become the best homemakers in the
world. There were so many great and wonderful things in that talk - she talked
about standing strong and immovable in faith. She asked all LDS women to have a
current temple recommend, pray every day, follow the Holy Ghost, study the
scriptures. She talked of standing strong and immovable in family and DEFENDING
the family. She talked of standing strong and immovable in relief which means
to lighten up and lift others. Again, I say, people, people, people, were you
even listening to the same talk I heard and have reread several times?
I really do not understand why women think this talk did not respect their roles
as mothers. It exalts the role! I agree with Robert that feminism has made our
society decay. It has made men uncertain of who they are, and what their
contribution to the world is. Children need their mothers. I love the
saying, "The Hand that Rocks the Cradle rules the World." The fact that women
are generally natural nurtures makes them good at raising children. You can
look at the problems in schools of late...Columbine for example, and I'll bet
you that those boys did not have parents who were available to talk to when they
got home from school and had had difficulties they needed to talk about. My
children, who are all raised and have children of their own, were always anxious
to get home to share their day with me, and I was always there to hear it.
School can be a cruel place. But, if parents are available and sympathetic and
loving, the children will be all right.May our Heavenly Father especially
bless those women who are raising their children alone and need to work outside
I know (and my own experience was the same) sees that women in the ward who
struggle with understanding / living the principals mess up the ward. Men in
those same circumstances mess up their families. Neither is good, both are
messy, but I have no idea why it is that women seem determined to address their
issues on a larger stage. Maybe it's the "validation" issue mentioned in
other's comments. But my own experience is that we all get a lot more
accomplished by being kind and considerate, rather than by being confrontational
and combative. Can you picture Sister Beck responding with the invective we've
seen from those who chose to be offended by her? Hmmmmm. Maybe there's a
The Church teaches the ideal. They are very aware that not everyone fits in the
"perfect mold", but we are striving to be as close to the ideal as possible. If
women are trying to decide how to use their talents and energy, it is nice to
have some kind of guide of the most important way we might use our time. I
think a lot of the response of these women is that they feel insecure about
their roles or feel that the Church is looking down on them for how their lives
have turned out, which is not the case. If this talk does nothing more than
help one woman decide to stay home with her kids instead of taking them to
daycare, IF she has that option, perhaps it is effective. I learn so much from
the other mothers around me. We are all different and have so much to offer, no
matter our individual circumstances.
If I was a woman in the church I think that I too would be offended. Yes
there's a hierachy in the church headed by Prophets and Apostles but anyone that
says that the woman's role is minimalized by church leaders and ward members is
in a dream world. Parents role is to teach and nuture there children, you can
have worldly success such as being a CEO or a corporation and still be a good
mother and it teaches your kids a lot. How can a girl that starts being a baby
machine at 18 with no education intellectually stimulate and teach their
children? The simple fact is being a mother and being a good mother isn't one
way or one thing. Families, parents, and siblings come in various forms.
There's no one right way as long as there's love, respect, and security in the
This is too narrowminded!
Are you speaking of your concern for the majority of the "female members" or for
just a few. Obviously, it would apply to just a few as is noted in the 3:54 pm
I enjoyed her talk and thought then it would probably offend some people because
there are always those who are offended by the truth. Everyone, regardless of
marital status, children etc. just need to do their very best every single day
to be the very best person they can.
I agree. I thoroughly enjoy the General Priesthood meetings with the
straight-forward talks, the lack of "beating-around-the-bush" and the
expectation the Priesthood holders would "man-up" and do the things they have
already committed to do. As for the wonderful sisters, they really don't get
the credit they deserve. For the rest, who take offense at the teachings,
sorry. It's your issue, not mine.
It doesn't sound to me that the women are "falling to pieces" -- more like
they're speaking up for themselves on both sides of the issue. I have heard many
men grumble about the types of talks you mention, but they seem fine with the
slow burn of irritation.
I'm sorry that people in general need to define their lives by the professions
they persue. I am a man and would give up everything I've gained for my family
and their spiritual, and societal success.Boo Hoo to you men and
women that gauge your successes by the $$$$$ in your pockets. Or VP plaque on
your door.True success is measured by the fruits you bear in society
whether those fruits be spiritual, children, humanitarian, foster care, etc...
Loving our neighbor, that's what counts.Dads - Provide for and
protect your family. Help your wives with ALL she's in need of. She has a much
tougher responsibility than you anyway.Moms - Nurture and raise your
children to be positive influences on society. Sustain and support your
husbands, because you can be their largest ego inflators and they like that.Moms & Dads - Stop being selfish, stop comparing yourselves against one
another, love each other and sustain each other in your roles, help each other
out in your roles, raise good kids (if you are able to bear), be good neighbors,
and enjoy this short life with that which really counts, and that is FAMILY!
Every talk cannot address the specifics of every person who hears it.No talk can
be everything to everybody. Speakers are humans not omniscient.This
article does not denigrate women without children in any way. It merely points
out the value and blessings that can be derived from motherhood for everyone. It
doesn't say it is easy.
I am a female and I did not "fall apart". In fact I was inspired to be better
and find more ways to have joy in my motherhood role.500 women who "fall
to pieces" is not all or even a lot of LDS Mothers.
You nailed it on the head, I agree whole-heartedly.We men get a good
"takin' to the woodshed" at just about every priesthood session, and while I'm
sure some can't handle it and get offended, I sure appreciate it and try to be a
better husband and father.All members need to remember that this is
a voluntary membership organization, anyone can leave at any time, but the
doctrine is not on a menu. We can't just pick the parts we like and leave the
rest, as you can with other religions. If it's true, and there's a living
prophet, then he speaks for God and there's really no room for quibbling.And I haven't heard the General Authorities taking back anything that
was said by Sis. Beck, so I take that as being affirmed and condoned by our
prophet.There just isn't any room for argument in a voluntary
membership organization that claims leadership directly from God. Either it's
true and you follow it, or it's not and you don't.
Thank you, Robert, for a reasonable and logical comment. All mothers, LDS or
not, should want to raise their children well.
Sister Beck's talk is still being discussed amongst women? Get a life Sisters.
If it is still such a top priority in your lives to make a big fuss over it,
then you are taking it upon yourselves to be offended. Is it a quilty
conscience? Get over it. Are you going to lose your membership if you are
working to support a family? I think NOT.I'm sure the Brethren
understands your individual circumstances. Sister Beck's talk was one that was
needed to be heard and said. You still have your free agency though...
I wonder how many of those who continue to disect Sister Beck's remarks and
complain about them saw or read the last Worldwide Leadership Training. Of
particular significance were Elder Holland's remarks about patterns and the
round table discussion that included Sister Beck and at least two apostles along
with another sister. Without referring to the protests, they all made remarks
that should have calmed these folks down. Unless they are specifically looking
for something to protest as opposed to gaining real understanding.
I have three wonderful daughters. Two are single, one is married with a child.
The married daughters wish they were married but are pursuing other worthwhile
goals (education, service to the community etc.). The married daughter
sometimes feels that she is under appreciated because so much is said about the
kinds of the things that the other daughters are doing, even among church
members. I think Sister Beck's talk was meant not to less the importance of the
contributions of women involved in other things, but as a counterbalance to
indicate to women who are primarily caring for children, that they are doing a
good and important thing, too.
President Beck's discourse was most remarkable! She quoted scriptures never
before quoted in Conference. It would do us all well that we would have her
deep understanding. She knows her doctrine like no other and should be heeded.
I have nothing but praises for her valued wisdom!
Whatwomenknow.org is basically espouses that all genders are equal in
capabilities and purposes. Reading through the previous comments I am surprised
to find that others have reacted to a General Authority affirming church
teachings. Isn't that what is expected?As for 500 women risking
membership; I am very skeptical. How do you know if they are members? I am sure
most of them are but how do we know?
If men were to get as upset by the Brethren beating on them about pornography,
the women of the church would be up in arms. If you're upset by Sis. Beck's
talk, maybe it's time to ask yourself why. Ladies, cowboy up!
Her talk was entitled 'MOTHERS who know", not YW who know or RS presidents who
know. I remember Pres. Benson giving a talk to the singles in the Church and I
wasn't offended because he wasn't speaking about me. I don't need that kind of
attention. I suspect Sheri Dew was not offended by this talk, because she knows
who she is and that her value and worth are based on who she is, not what title
I think Sister Beck's talk was beautiful and I found nothing in it that was
offensive. As a young, at-home, LDS mother with a degree in psychology; I found
it refreshing to hear someone who appreciates the importance of the work I am
taking time to do during this point in my life. I am other things beside a
mother. However, while my kids are in the home they will be my highest
priority. Those who have studied psychology understand the tremendous impact
mothers have on their children. One of the hardest things in our society I have
found about being a mother is that others tend to think your not doing anything
important. I found her talk empowering and comforting. For those women who are
not mothers--they should not be judged at all and their importance should be
recognized. This talk just happened to be about mothers and not women in
general so please do not be offended.
No one can be offended quite like a liberal self proclaimed intellectual.
Two points:1. Funny that there is such an uproar about the idea that
motherhood is the most important work a woman can do. Has anything different
ever been said in the church about the men? Is not fatherhood the most
significant work a man can do? No one complained about that ... certainly not
the bachelors in the church. I've been single most of my adult life, and I
didn't disagree.2. Motherhood and fatherhood are about teaching
children LIFE SKILLS and CHARACTER. Neither corporations nor academia teach
these very well. Sure, homemaking is nice, and Sister Beck was only pointing
out that an orderly home invites peace, and the Spirit, which is true. (Martha
Stewart makes an industry of homemaking, and gets paid and praised by the
millions. But she's a C.E.O.!) What's wrong with a little balance? Some of
these folks need to be less defensive, and a little more willing to give kudos
to their sisters who choose a path different than the academic or corporate
ones.Of course, living a Christlike life is what really matters, and
getting upset about things like this shows how much growth many of us still
I doubt every Mormon is being judged by her comments; the lady is just giving
good advice to women, and IMO, if they heed what she has to say, they will be
better off for it. If women are judging themself, that is not necessarily "bad";
it is good that we judge ourselves, and make sure that we try to be the best
that we can be (best citizens, children, and parents). We (people) shouldn't be
too hard on ourselves; however, we shouldn't be too easy either.I am
not LDS, and don't belief in Mormon Theology (Joseph Smith being a prophet,
etc.). However, I do believe in LDS principles and values. What the Church
teaches it's members (and nom-members, such as "me") is in a nutshell, "the
right stuff". If there is someone "out there" who can refute what
this lady has to say; namely, show me that it is all BS, I'd like to hear from
him/her. The best wife is a good mother; the best father is a man who loves his
children's mother. Corny wording (perhaps) - but true to the core.
"Me thinks thou protesteth too much" and "Seek not to counsel your God"Relying on the Intelligence of experts have given me warning about the
coming Ice Age and Global Warming in my lifetime. Not a very good track
record.I will put my faith in the creator of the systems that not
only put us on this earth, but allows us to stay here.Families and
especially Mothers are part of those systems. When Mothers disappear so will we.
Mrs. Beck just defined what good looks like in a mother. She did
not attack what you may or may not be doing. She just restated the standard.If you have an issue with that standard, fine, just make sure the issue
does not come from guilt. Are you attacking the standard because it is wrong or
because you can't live up to it and you have to make yourself more comfortable
in your own skin."experts" have shown us what to do and not to do
for years. Too bad that advice too often conflicts over time.Motherhood is too important too leave to the "experts"
We are given council and encouragement by church leaders. But at the end of the
day we'll stand before GOD and give him an account of what we have done with our
time on earth. There are politics and human error in the Church, but at
the end of the day we're just people doing the best we can. We're being the
best Mothers and Fathers we know how to be. Sister Beck was given the task of
addressing this issue in the church and she did what she felt was right.
There's certainly no harm in that.
Do we follow the Letter of the Law or the Spirit of the Law?Thou
shall not steal...There is no excuse for stealing...Thou
shall keep the Sabbath Day holy...I guess the Police Officers and
Paramedics are doomed because they have to work on Sundays? I think not...The Lord knows our needs and circumstances girls...
I've been wanting to voice my support and admiration for Julie Beck. When I
heard that talk, I thought there is a person who was raised up and has something
to say. Let's all hope she doesn't censor herself. This world needs more people
who speak to the ideal without fear. She's an absolute class act - I've never
met her, never talked to her. But I see in Julie Beck that formidable strength
that comes from striving to live up to a noble ideal. She has that wonderful mix
of grit and poise that often eludes the Pharisees of our day.
Well it looks like there are a lot of people who need to get a life. Many of
you need better self esteem. We all have our free agency to live our life how
we think we should. Personally, I thought Sister Beck's talk was inspired.
Good families and good parents are what the world needs now!!!!
There seems to be an overarching theme from the comments I've read. Why did
people react so negatively towards Sis Beck's talk? I believe it's been
addressed.Sis Beck is a well traveled leader who has visited several
countries and members from different cultural upbringing.I wonder what
women from other countries think of her talk? So far, the ladies I've spoken
with find it of worth and value to them. They come from different background,
some have children, some divorced, some don't have children and some have never
been married. Yet they find Sis Beck's talk valuable in their individual lives.
I wonder why that is.
Consider the source: Sunstone Symposium. While they think highly of their
opinions, I don't. Sunstone strives diligently to serve two masters: faithful
members of the LDS church and the alienated and estranged. It's a watering hole
for feminists, gays, and other disaffected members of the church to gather and
prattle on about their various grievances and resentments -- all packaged in
cleverly written intellectual babble.
"The guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the very
center".Sounds like a handful of people might be falling into this
I have been on both sides of the housewife issue-my first husband pretty much
demanded it of me(non lds) no matter how I felt-I had no kids.I felt like I was
a slave held captive-but....when I remarried,it was a great joy to me and I
loved being home and with the step kids as well.I also worked a bit.Everyone has
thier own style-their won way of doing things.No one ever fits a mold
entirely..and those who feel they need to need to rethink on how valauable and
really loved they truely already are. You are special...and doing the best you
can and follwing your heart.That is all that's needed.I know that it
is not a "formula" for all...but sister was speaking to those who needed to hear
it to help them define themselves IF they needed to hear it.No one can speak to
every need out there among women.I am sure she did not mean to do that. I am now
a single LDS woman and I am very happy. As a single LDS member I feel
supported,empowered and uplifted by my church and my men leaders.A thing I in my
whole life I have never felt.HORRAH!
The one sister in my ward that I heard complaining about this talk is notorious
for always taking the opposing view. I served in a presidency with her and no
matter what anyone else suggested, she would always knock it down. Some people
feel they need to play the devil's advocate. I just chalk it up to their
personality and let them deal with the aftermath of being known as a
I would strongly recommend everyone read a most wonderful talk by Sister Sheri
Dew titled: "Are We Not All Mothers?" in the November 2001 Ensign. Sister Dew
was Second Counselor in the Relief Society General Presidency at that time.
I'm always amused when people state that having children 'erodes' who they
are.What a conniving, slanderous, false statement that is!!
Sister Beck's talk was directed to one segment of women in the WORLD not just
women in the church: mothers. All mothers everywhere could benefit from her
wisdom and advice. All women, not just mothers, could benefit from the message
of her talk by realizing it was meant to uplift, encourage, and enlighten.
Those of you who are troubled by this talk need to take a look at why it
troubles you so, "For the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth
them to the very center."
It takes faith to believe the LDS churchs A Proclamation to the World that
concerns the family and a mans and womans role within the Lords church. Ive
always believed that the Lords commandments are a recipe for a happier life. On
the other hand, we have free agency and we can choose to disobey those
commandments or the words of His Prophets and reap the consequences of those
actions. Ive been a working mother out of necessity, but Ive worked part-time
the last 5 years; however, circumstances have changed financially and I recently
gave up my job to be a stay at home mom. I dont think I was very available to
my children when I worked because I often came home tired. Therefore, I look
forward to being more available to my family in many capacities. I think it is
a temptation to pursue a career, I used to have one; but I love my family and
can see how being home can bless and protect them in many ways. For instance,
being able to supervise them while theyre on the internet is a big one. My joy
and blessing is seeing my family succeed and their happiness.
Sister Beck speaks the truth. I have an LDS neighbor (I don't live in Utah) who
is an embarassment to the church because of her poor parenting. She has a large
family and doesn't discipline or supervise them and the neighbors are disgusted
and upset. The LDS mom just figures because she has 8 kids, she entitled to
allow her kids to run wild because she is overwhelmed and others just need to be
understanding. The problem is that it isn't socially acceptable here to let
your toddlers roam around outside for hours on end, vandalizing flower gardens
and generally getting into mischief. Sadly, the ones who need this talk the most
don't see it that way. All the while they are misrepresenting the LDS family
and the way it should be. Not perfect, but strong and loving and an ASSET to
the community instead of neighbors celebrating when they move away. (That
I think Lucy 5:25 said it best. I've been taught all my life by the
church that we should do the best we can at whatever worthy cause we are engaged
in. Eductation, civic leadership, church responsibilites, and YES... even
parenthood. It's true, children do better if mom stays at home with
them, check the research. Sister beck wasn't out of line for saying what she
did. But...based on the article, and some of the comments, it seems that there
are a lot of people out there who don't have a clue what the church REALLY
teaches or this would be a non-issue.
I'm a young single member of the church, never been married, never had kids, and
I found Sister Beck's talk to be excellent. It was one of my very favorite talks
in Conference that session. I heard a talk once, and I don't
remember who it was by, but I'd like to say President Packer. He said that
oftentimes when you feel the Spirit, it goes hand in hand with the stinging of
rebuke. That's not to offend, that's to let you know that spiritually, you're
not pointed in the exact right direction. You may be close, but each of us will
always have things we can work on. Some people will constantly look
for offense, no matter what the intent is. Sister Beck didn't say one word that
was out of line with official church doctrine. Everybody has different
circumstances, that's why the Lord takes your desires into consideration along
with everything else. I think people just really need to get over
themselves. Just because you think you've been offended doesn't mean you
actually have been, and just because you think you're right doesn't mean you
actually are. The Lord, however, is always right.
It seems like women are just looking for support for choosing fame, fortune, and
prestige over having more offspring? Church leaders can't support this worldly
view because it is a direct violation of Gods eternal plan. Even for those who
can't have children they are still under the commandment to "seek first the
kingdom of heaven"; Men and women both make great sacrifices to raise a family
so it's not a one way street.... So quit whining!
I heard all the conference talks and now I am motivated to read Sister Beck's
for re-assimilation. By the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of
First, as a LDS male I can't claim I understand the LDS female experience. But
I can say this: LDS guys are given a lot of expectations too. Not going on
mission in this culture is -not- fun. Nor is the feeling of having one's life
mapped out: marriage, kids, life in suburbia and church callings, etc... all
while living a rather strict moral law. All while imagining myself as one of
those older guys I don't quite associate myself with.Then I decided
to stop be acted upon and decided to start acting. Pressure and expectation is
everywhere, especially in the church. But it is and was mostly of my own
creation. Doing anything without developing the true desire to do so is a
recipe for misery. God knows we are finite beings and can't do it
all. But I don't think we should cripple spiritual ideals such as missionary
work and motherhood just because those ideals sometimes cause pain and sometimes
are unachievable by very definition.
I would bet that Sister Beck has much more world experience than you, including
living in Brazil for an extended period of time.
The reason I like General Priesthood meeting so much is because the speakers
tend to say it like it is, rather than couch their language in fluff.
The best way to destroy individual souls would be convince them that their
righteous pursuits to follow the Savior somehow enslaved them and instead would
convince them that it was more important to "free" themselves to pursue worldly
accolades.Male or Female, the strategy is the same, but the tactics
are a little different. I personally applaud Sis. Beck for praising and
supporting righeous mothers for their efforts to make important contributions to
their families, wards and communities.Fortunately, the Spirit
teaches the Truth. All of our hearts were pricked upon hearing Sis. Beck's
counsel. Some have chosen to follow those promptings and some have become
"How can a girl that starts being a baby machine at 18 with no education
intellectually stimulate and teach their children?"The same way that
any other mother at any other age can. By pursuing excellence in family,
education, community, church, etc.We do educate people in this
country. Just ask any 18 year old. With dual enrollment some 18 year olds can
finish at least two years of college.
As an educated, intellectual, stay-at-home AND work-from-home mother, I was
completely inspired by Sister Beck's talk. For me it was a clarion call to stand
a little taller, and to reflect on the enormous importance of nurturing and
teaching my children in love and righteousness. My children cover the spectrum
of mental ability and each presents unique challenges, but regardless, each
child needs to be spiritually grounded. I find I am able to meet their spiritual
needs when I am spiritually fed myself; likewise I can meet their intellectual
needs when my mind is intellectually stimulated. There is nothing wrong with
taking time to nuture myself as an individual, and I think much of the
controversy comes down to the erroneous assumption that in motherhood we must
all run faster than we have the strength, or until we have no more strength.
"Women who know" are swift to tap into that higher power, that unfailing source
of strength, and find that the seemingly impossible tasks of motherhood are not
so impossible after all.
Sister Beck is inspired and correct. The seditious members who believe they know
better than the leadership of the church should either learn obedience and
humility or start their own church. In every dispensation there are those who
think they know better than the Prophets. Womanhood is sacred and cheapened by
feminists and the unfaithful.
Intrigued by the "uproar" caused by this talk, I went back and listened to Sis
Beck's talk, TWICE. I saw nothing offensive, or incorrect in her words, or
inconsistent with the Gospel teachings.As a man with a less than
perfect marriage, I know the sting, the pain and the "Eternal Uncertainty" when
one views their life against the perfect models of the Church, but as Sis Beck
was quick to point out, "eternity is a long time." I believe a lot of us will
be able to achieve lives closer to the perfect model in eternity. I suppose that
is where Hope and Faith enters in.As for me, I will continue to
listen and adhere as best I can to the counsel of the leaders. Knowing that
every blessing will fall into place at the appropriate time and place.
And as usual, "the guilty take the truth to be hard." By the way, ALL General
Conference talks are approved before they are given. So the Brethern DID know
exactly what she would be saying. The morality in this world has
decayed beyond belief. I wonder why??
Pure intellectualism and sophistry.
If anything, the MormonChurch seems to have forgot the old by true saying, "The
hand that rocks the cradle rules the world."They've also forgot that
unlike their break off sect theFLDS, we live a modern, enlightened and
democratic world where woman can't be simply relegated to mysoginistically
imposed rules because some 'authority' says so. The world we live
in today moved way beyond the inquisition a long time ago.
I find it hard to believe that many of these people actually read or listened
to Sister Beck's talk. Sister Toscano miscaraterized what Sister Beck said.
She never said that people outside the church are universally enemies of the
family, she said that the people in popular culture who try to teach about
womanhood deliver a false message. If people get their views on womanhood from
Brittny Spears and the like they have issues. Beyond this, speaking about
family was only one third of Sister Beck's talk was even about the family. She
spent a whole third on preserving the family and a third on providing relief.
She never said that woman should not work outside the home. She never directly
addressed the issue of women working.
I am sure that Sister Beck knew that many would take her talk to be a difficult
subject. I don't know her, but I am grateful that she took her talk to the Lord
in prayer and gave it. I am an LDS working mom and I do not fit in with the
"ideal" any more than most of the women I know. But, I do understand the
pattern of happiness that the Lord has set out and that given better
circumstances, I would have been thrilled to live the ideal better than I am
able to now. One thing I HAVE noticed is that women are their worst enemies and
create divisiveness comparing themselves to other women. They create much of
their own heartache by wanting to be recognized for all the work they do (paid
or unpaid). This talk was for women and not men. And so she did not include
the ideal for men as well. Of course men and women both nurture their children.
I am grateful I do not have her calling. But, 500 names does not come close to
the number of women in the church. Keep it up Sister Beck. I sustain you.
Funny. I've noticed over the past couple of years that the Church has greatly
increased its emphasis on the wider spectrum of interests women choose to pursue
now. If I was a new member, I would have noticed that at least half of what is
shown on KBYU-TV, for example, clearly emphasizes women's roles in all aspects
of living. I first noticed this when the BYU-TV sports broadcast schedules
became almost entirely about women's games! I was ill, which required that I
stay down for a long time,and I could not read or surf. So I watched TV a LOT. I
became frustrated when tried to watch "classic games", expecting to see games I
remembered from times past. Imagine how thrilled I was to find that, instead of
a thrilling ball game with Notre Dame or Pitt etc., the "classic" game was
WOMEN'S LACROSSE, or one of the other thrilling battles between BYU women and
amazons from obscure junior colleges in Australia! If I wanted to watch men's
games, I'd have to get up at 5 am on saturdays! This is a trivial example but
it DOES represent a general trend by the LDSChurch to recognize women's
And so the "WAR" goes on.We know "one third" of the heavenly host lost their
opportunity for further progression because they supported the wrong cause. Let
us then understand, all who now live will be partakes of a universal
reseruction, thanks be to our Lord and Savior, JESUS CHRIST. But only those who
keep their "second estate" will have "eternal glory added opon them". Lets seen
now, what are those conditions again?
Sister Becks Talk was a landmark talk. One of the best talks ever given to
women. It was a companion talk to Elder Oaks talk of that same conference,
Good, Better, Best. He also mentioned some points about todays families that
some might have taken to be hard. Those of you who are a part of this website
and are participating in criticizing your leaders...do you realize what you are
doing? You are not a law unto yourselves. Say what you want, do what you want,
but the Lord is in charge and His leaders will say and must say what He
commands. If you have a problem don't point your finger at His servants, look
in the mirror. Sister Beck is the leader for these times. EVerything she
said was right on the mark.
Janice Allred is an apostate.All this article did was give an
apostate a place to speak and vent.Who cares? Drop the subject.
What a pathetic article written only to get people stirred up and read the DN.
These people must not have anything better to do with their time than to be part
of a useless panel as described in this article. I support and sustain the
To jrccmsmom, I completely agree with your sentiments. I did not hear
Sister Beck's talk, but I read it today. She talks about so much more than
being a mother. People need validation of motherhood. Many people
fulfill that role in many ways. Some of the best mothers I have known were
mothers of adopted children. To Lucy, You do have a good point,
and I do not think any group would dare have a forum on how horrible it is for
church leaders to speak against pornography. However there are people who
attack the church leaders for their position on homosexuality, which is a
behavior that probably has twice as many male as female practioners.
It should also be noted that Margeret Toscano, one of the presenters, has been
excommunicated. I can not say about the other four, but this is not exactly a
good sample of LDS women's views on these issues.
to Robert,"Oh, but every mother in the LDS church is being judged by
Ms. Beck's words and is judging herself."How is this any different
then talks given to men about the very same subject and how we should be good
husbands, fathers and rear children in good homes. "I worry for her
mental health as her anguish in not measuring up continues to plague her. She's
a good mum in my opinion, but according to the stick she's being measured with
she fails on several fronts so she beats herself with it."You have
no compassion for others and I hope your sister doesn't reads what you have
written. What kind of person are you? Beck's talk was one of the most
compassionate and said women should STRIVE to be better mothers, better wives
and better persons.I'm sure you would take issue with Ballard's talk
too "While women live in homes under many different circumstances-married,
single, widowed, or divorced, some with children and some without-all are
beloved of God, and He has a plan for His righteous daughters to receive the
highest blessings of eternity."I can't speak for women but reading
your post hurt my feelings.
If it had been me in the hall, and was told I was just a slave, I would have
completely agreed. Then, I would have replied, tis far better for me to be a
slave for my children, then my children be a slave unto me. In life, something
always has to give.
"the wicked take the truth to be hard."
Please...read the talk - again. Where did Sister Beck beat up on mothers or any
woman for that matter? Quite the contrary! Those of you who took her talk in a
negative way must not understand that in using the word "SHOULD", Sister Beck
was probably complimenting Mormon women. You probably took it to
mean OBLIGATION or DUTY as in You should send her a note.I took it
to mean PROBABILITY or EXPECTATION as in They should arrive at noon.As a Mormon woman we have inspiration, blessings, covenantial power from on
High that makes the probability and expectation a pretty strong likelihood. Get
your minds, hearts and facts right women, and don't take offense - even if you
"think" you heard the truth. Sister Beck is watching out for you and yours! PS: Have somebody tell you the story about the woman at Heathrow airport
who bought a package of biscuits (cookies) and thought the man sitting next to
her ate them! Sometimes our perspective is all messed up.
I think that women have a hard time being heard and validated in any patriarchal
order. D&C 121 states that it is the nature of almost all men that when given
some power, they will abuse it. (paraphrased)We have been taught incorrect
principles for so long over the local pulpit and in our own homes. The
principles of MAN, not God. God knows who we are, what we contribute, and that
we have power to form the world of the future. Fear in the hearts of men, of
intelligent, independent women causes problems such as this. Women who are in
the role of mother, full time, part time, double time, need reminders that what
they do is valuable. It would be the easy way for many mom's to leave the
raising of our children to others and justify it very well. from the mind and
heart of an intelligent, independent, open-minded lds mother of 5...I say the
easy way isn't always the best way. I would be dissatisfied with anyone else
mothering my children. They are an extension of me. I care for them as myself.
Both sides are worth listening and understanding. Ultimately, whatever our
reaction is, we can get down on our knees and address the owner of the answers.
When we are concerned with what our personal role or life should be, we can pray
and know from direct source. It is commendable to be engaged in a good cause,
and the wise woman knows how to obtain knowledge and peace. Let's make sure we
have obtained wisdom from above before going to the battlefield.
I just want Sister Beck to know I fully appreciated and loved her talk - I will
always remember it forever! I was so inspired that I quote it frequently to my
missionary son in Denmark. I raised 7 children and I was not a perfecr LDS
mother - I did my best and the Lord filled in the rest....
After reading through this I have realized there is a confusion. Sister Beck
gave the talk "What Latter-day Saint Women Do Best: Stand Strong and Immovable"
in the Relief Society General Meeting. This is what the pane discussion was in
theory about, and at least Ms. Toscano's comments were clearly an attack on it,
although also built around a mischaracterization. Sister Beck also gave a
talk in the Sunday Morning Session of General Conference entitled "Mothers Who
Know". This talk also touched on some of the same themes. Yet she specifically
addressed the issue of women who are unable to be mothers in this life.
On a side note I had to laugh when the person suggested that woman leaders of
the church have no experience outside Utah. Sister Beck was raised almost as
much in Brazil as in the United States. Her first counselor, Sister Allred, is
a native of El Salvador, and has lived in at least five different countries at
various points in her life.
Because of all this stupid hype I went back and read her talk on the internet.
No where in her talk does it say that a women's only job is to have and raise
children and she's worthless without children. It says lds women should DESIRE
to have children and our primary ROLE is to raise and nurture them. Notice the
key word: ROLE, not job. No where does it say that you HAVE to stay home all
day and cook and clean and do laundry. She says we should be the best
homemakers...and however you accomlpish that is up to you. She doesn't say: you
have to be a homemaker by doing this and this. We have our free agency to be
the best we can. My best is different from everyone else's because we are all
unique and the church and most importantly, the Lord recognizes that. If women
and men are finding offence, then you are reading WAY too much into her talk.
We are only required to be the best that we can be. NOthing more. If you feel
you are doing your best as a mother/wife/lds women in the church, then you
I want to add my thoughts on the idea that Sister Beck's message (and others
like it) are detrimental to women's mental health.First, I believe
we can balance assessment and change. I have experienced the exhilarating
feeling of understanding what is maintaining confusing personal problems.
Sometimes a "diagnosis" makes so much sense! At the same time, I have found that
clinging to an explanation for my problems has been a major obstacle to
considering suggestions for how I might (*need to*) improve my behavior. Sister
Becks talk focused, as do many messages given by LDS Church leaders, on
possibilities and prioritiesissues that demand serious, honest appraisal and
action. Some talks focus more on change than othersfor example, take Chapter 5
of Alma in the Book of Mormon. And I think they have value. Second,
some of us may have difficulty integrating progress feedback in a productive
way. There is just no perfect way to deliver these messages. We cant prevent the
worrying, or the thinking that change has to be somehow more taxing than perhaps
it does. Some emotional support may be needed. Thats okay. These are growing
pains, and well worth the price of being taught moral values.
If you are offended by her talk, then you need to change something in your life.
And its most likely your attitude.
Julie's talk was spot-on. Motherhood, as a "career" is not the same as secular
careers. If you undertake motherhood (either on purpose or by accident) you need
to rise to the occasion and do your best so your family can be its best. The
ramifications of doing motherhood right or wrong can affect generations,
literally. People who get easily offended at this notion need to
look beyond themselves and see the bigger picture. I've got a degree, have
marketable skills, but I CHOSE motherhood. That doesn't mean I won't use those
skills again; it just means my priorities have changed, and I'm not less of a
person for it. If motherhood isn't in your cards, then the talk doesn't apply to
you and the energy spent being offended by it is wasted. And
speaking of wasting time, I hope Julie Beck hasn't wasted a second of her time
worrying about all the thin-skinned criticisms. It seems some of society can't
work fast enough to dilute motherhood until it becomes just a watery, imitative
form of day care. Julie emphasized its true importance, and that kind of honesty
and honor toward the work of motherhood is in short supply.
The first time I heard Sister Beck's talk I was so thrilled to hear the straight
talk to women. It was in NO WAY offensive, but directed to the sisters who are
MOTHER'S. I found her talk so encouraging, even though my children are all
grown and married. We are women who hold a standard and are supposed to be
equal with the brethren. And we ARE. But there are women who feel less than, and
beat themselves up over it. It tells more from the comments about the writer's
who complain than it does about the content of Sister Beck's original talk. To
quote another reader, and a priesthood holder, THANK YOU. I agree:"True
success is measured by the fruits you bear in society whether those fruits be
spiritual, children, humanitarian, foster care, etc... Loving our neighbor,
that's what counts."I remember when I was first a single mother, Pres.
Benson gave a talk especially to the Sisters, I was a working mom, but his
consideration and words of support were needed. My children turned out, yet I
had six children still at home. I was blessed.
for the reminder that some of us aren't welcome in the LDS church. It makes me
sad to see the LDS principles I was raised with are often not present in this
online forum or in the attitudes, words, and actions of the members. I
appreciate those who voice their opinion and support without name calling or
telling those who might disagree to get over it or leave. I have always been
quiet about those things I wasn't sure about or disagreed with, because I didn't
want to make others uncomfortable or to think I was a bad person because I
thought differently about some things. I have felt on the outside for a long,
long time, but not any more. Thank you for showing me the door.
Given there are over 3,000,000 women in the LDS Relief Society, and over
6,500,000 girls and women in the LDS Church, why is it that Deseret News chooses
to give "500 women" composed of misfits and apostates such a large podium upon
which to spew their hatred towards LDS women and culture? Why is it your report
allows their propaganda to go unchecked that these hate filled women represent
many, or even a plurality of LDS women?Pardon me, but let me do the
math: 500 women out of 3,000,000 is 0.016% of LDS women. One-tenth of 100th
percent is a "large firestorm"? "Big trouble"?
God bless you Sister Beck! You are a hero. On par with Esther, Ruth, Hannah, and
others. Thanks for not backing down in the face of criticism from the guilty
500 women sign a petition and D-news and the few attending Sunstone think this
is a firestorm in a church with 13+ million members.
If Jesus Christ were at the pulpit in the Conference Center on October 2007, He
would have said the same words Sister Beck said. It takes the Spirit,the Holy
Ghost, to know,see and hear things that are give by the Spirit.
I am a Mother of four children. They are grown now and I am proud to say I was
in the home with them every step of the way. For a time I had to work to help
out, but I made sure the kids came first. That sometimes meant working the night
shift at a hosptial. Life can be tough, but the most important thing you can do
as a mother is raise a righteous and responsible generation to the LORD!!!
Sister Marie Hafen, in a talk to the students at Ricks College, told the women
that "before you become someone's wife or mother, be someone." The message is
clear. Sister Hafen is a talented, educated woman and could be successful in
any field she chose, but when her children came along she realized that
motherhood was her most important role and she used her training and talent and
abilities in raising good children. When my children got married I counseled
them: "When the children come along, Mama stays home." Even though my daughters
and daughter-in-law all have degrees, they've followed that counsel and are
raising good children themselves. Though it's difficult and trying, they see
that their children need them so they ignore the sophisticated mockers who
delight in belittling their sacrifice. There are eternal and earthly rewards
for their consecrated efforts.
To Women Leaders:I heard a talk on chasity by President Hinckley several
years ago. He was right on with the consequences. From one who was chaste to one
who was not and repented, he knew. Our Savior never experienced divorce
but he knew the hilt of rejection and depression. These are prophets of
the living God our Heavenly Father and He knows all and reveals His will to us
through them. Those living in Taiwan and South America or where ever who
have the Holy Ghost, they know what the Prophets are saying. "My sheep hear my
voice" Whether by His voice or by the voice of his servants, it is he
I sustain the Lord's prophet who, under the direction of the Saviour called a
woman to be the leader of the world wide Relief Society. No
reasonable individual would even remotely think that anyone would get up to give
a talk to millions of women worldwide without first asking in sincere prayer
what the Lord would like to have said to those women. Chill women
and get a clue. Wife and motherhood first then the other things after. When we
die and stand before the bar of Christ at judgement, he is NOT going to ask
about our bank accounts or schooling or much else. He is probably going to
first ask us about our treatment of our spouse and our childrens. The first
questions will be about families and relationships. Prepare for that, not some
educational quiz. Oh, He may ask how you feel about your treatment of called
and sustained Church leaders, especially if YOU sustained them...
Quit whining. It was a great talk and those who are offended by it need to think
Didn't hear the talk, but didn't Brigham Young tell women of the time to become
educated, and become doctors, etc. Motherhood and fatherhood, assuming you have
those jobs, are more important than the day job, obviously, but I don't see why
women should not have other things on their plate. Sometimes kids are 24/7, but
then they hit the point where they are not, and mom has some extra time. What
is she supposed to do, sit idly by and wait for kids and dad to come home? Don't want to ignore the LDS cultural attitudes either. We were getting
it when we had only one child, not by choice but people assume we put "the
world" ahead of children. It was asinine, and very hurtful to my wife. After
we adopted children, boy how attitudes changed. There are those who need to
quit assuming that because you are childless or have few children you are living
wrong. Who are you to say what God's plan is for someone else?
I just re-read the talk. What's all the fuss about? Some people just like to
look for trouble. You find them in every organization, including the church.
They all need to get a life. It was a wonderful, inspiring message
and there is nothing in it to complain about. Basically it said, be a serious
mother and a good homemaker. Wow, that's really offensive!
To Robert 4:30 p.m. Your sister is measuring herself by her own measuring
rod. She is comparing herself to others. The common ploy of the adversary
is overdoing the gospel or underdoing it, never a happy medium. Jesus taught,
'moderation' in all things. The General Authorities talk of balance in
our lives and other councels as we work "toward" perfection. We sometimes
only listen to part of what they say. Your sister just needs to do the
"best she can" and know the Lord loves her. I know. I've been there. I do
the best I can and ask the Lord if I am where "I am" supposed to be following
his plan for me. She will be a lot happier if she will councel with her
Bishop and get help from the LDS social services. It really is the plan of
happiness. We make it so much harder than it is only because we simply don't ask
the Lord to "help me find the way" and "teach me all that "I" must do" to live
with him some day.
10% - 10% - 80%Ten percent of the people judge others (..."she has
too few children", "too many", "is single because...", etc.).Ten
percent get offended and judge not only the ten percent as being judgmental but
the remaining eighty percent.Okay, so I do not not have a scientific
study to back up my numbers, but the point is: stop judging, stop being offended
and, if you are going to judge people as being judgmental, leave the eighty
percent out of it. FYI - a symposium brings the eighty percent into
this "controversy". If you are judged unfairly, bring it up individually with
the person doing the judging.No unfair judgment delivered by Sister
Beck, only love and doctrine.
Instead of 'whatwomenknow', the site should be
'mainlyutahwomenwholiketowhine'...and please, skip the quotes of Margaret
Toscano, the biggest whiner of all. Good grief.
Sister Beck you have my love and support.
500 people offended, millions in agreement. Who cares what this handful of
crybabies says? The talk was awesome and obviously pricked some consciences.
In response to Emily Bentons comment that My success isnt a grandchild, Im an
LDS father of two and I feel that I have two roles that are paramount to any
others and are all parallel those of any female in the church. These roles
include being a parent and being a spouse. It doesnt matter to me what I
accomplish outside of these roles, if Im not successful in these 2 first. My
success is my family, my kids, and my grandchildren and Id hope that my wife
feels the same!
I believe you totally misunderstood what I wrote. I am extremely concerned for
my sister and those like her who can't give themselves credit for all they are
doing a great job at in raising their families for the expectations they feel
they aren't meeting.I apologize for anything I may have written that
tweaked you to feel sad other than I hope LDS women can move away from beating
themselves up for not meeting the myriad goals they are given to strive for.
It is interesting to witness all the talk about "women this" or "men that" with
simultaneous criticism of Sis. Beck and/or the LDS church and its doctrines
regarding different sex roles as being "depersonalizing".What
laughable hypocrisy.How's bout simply accepting that each person,
male or female, can choose their lives for themselves. They don't
intrinsically, by virtue of their sex, owe allegiance to the sexist orthodoxies
of feminists, or religious doctrines, or political parties, or anyone/thing else
but themselves.Thus, if they choose to listen to and follow the
advice of Sis. Beck, or Gloria Steinam, or even the presumptuously pejorative
prejudices of some self-righteous stranger who declares them to be unknowing
slaves, they can rest assured that they are being true to themselves.
Self-assured authenticity is the only true source of self esteem and
fulfillment.Do what YOU think is right. Do that long enough,
especially when you find out you’re wrong, and eventually you will be
I wonder if anyone here remembers when Pres Benson gave a talk with a similar
theme. It was even made into a pamphlet. The uproar then was similar to the one
following Sister Beck's talk. At the time I thought it was a reaction to a man
(although sustained as a prophet) telling women how to live, but I guess it goes
deeper than that. I'm sure Sis Beck was disheartened by the personal criticism
she received when she was simply trying to lift up those mothers who are
sacrificing much to stay with their children. I'm sad for her, but I have no
doubt she knows what she said was the truth. Prophets' words are often rejected,
sadly by those who profess to sustain them. (And yes, she is a prophet(ess) in
the same sense that anyone can be who receives revelation in regards to her
Ms Beck is making a name for herself as a loose cannon. Many men who heard her
conference talk which made it clear that a white shirt is a necessary part of a
"proper" male dress for church services, can't stand to wear one. Her clear
statement that Mormon wife or mother needs to insure every male wear such white
shirt or she is somehow inadequate in her capacity, is NUTS, I will never wear a
white shirt to the block again until this "tradition" is labeled as such.I
suggest Ms Beck stick to women's issues and attempt to show more understanding
and less labeling. At this rate she is well on her way to becoming the RS-nazi.
to I sustain 4:16 PM Aug 8:Sorry to disappoint, but, no, no, NO; no one
scans the Conference addresses for preapproval unless a speaker (particularly a
foreigner) requests it, for catching grammatical or doctrinal errors, or for
translation purposes. In fact, I have seen talks set aside and replaced,
impromptu. Amazing, isn't it! General Authorities know the doctrine, and so
does most of the membership, which is where General Authorities are drawn from.
That's why uproars such as the one over Sister Beck's talk do so little harm.
She was speaking to women who "know." Any others would do well to try to
understand what she was talking about.
I've worked with women in the Church whose knee jerk reaction to just about
anything is negative. They don't express an opposing opinion after giving it
some thought. It's just no to everything. They remind me of two year olds. It's
as though nothing is valid unless they thought of it first. Thankfully the vast
majority of women are not like this. They will express a valid opinion after
thinking about it. I suspect many of those who are offended by this talk are
those type of women. They see negative in everything and waste no time letting
everyone else know how they feel. When I heard this talk I knew there would be
fallout. Too bad, it was a wonderful talk and the message was very important.
It was very hard to have my daughter leave the church. She has only one child,
that is all she can handle. She has stayed at home and focused on her daughters
needs. But for this young mother, who stayed at home and worked some on
education and has put off getting a career that would be of intellectual
gratification, she has it right. She finds it foolish that women
will have a career and then have children, at the time when a couple should be
enjoying being grandparents, they are raising babies. My grand daughter will
start pre-school this year, my daughter is looking forward to working. My daughter may not "believe" in the church, but she choose to stay at
home, they had one car, no neighbor kids around, they didn't eat out or buy
things, and because of that, mom could be at home. On the other
hand, my step-daughter works full time, has two under the age of three and her
husband is not working, he took one class this summer and will take 12 easy
credits, they are in the church, wait, the church is supporting them. She
should be at home, not him!!!
To ... Do you know Julie? Yes or no! I don't understand your post -
have you got me mixed up with someone else's comments? I don't know Julie;
however, based on what she says, I have the utmost respect for her; she seems to
be the epitome of a great mother. I don't understand your "lack of compassion"
comment? I don't think she is looking for compassion (or needs such) because
none is necessary. I don't see any "anguish" in her comments, just good advice
to all mothers. I often hear "Prozac" comments about Mormon women due to having
many kids; as the son of a mother who had 10 children, I find these comments
very insulting to all women - Mormon or not.I've heard several talks
from President Hinckley over the years regarding a man's obligation,
responsibilities, and duty to his wife and children (and for Mormons, his
church); everything he says (like Julie) is absolutely correct. I'll have to
look up the talk you mention; however, this talk (Julie's) is one I'll never
forget because it is perhaps the best I've ever heard about motherhood - I keep
it here on my laptop.
I'm one of the women who many of those complainers think is a non-thinking
moron, dumb, unintelligent, slave mom. Thanks a lot. That's a pretty mean
judgment. Actually, as a stay-at-home mom, I've been free to read a lot more
books than I ever had opportunity to read while I was in college. And working
with my kids is a whole lot more challenging and rewarding than my career was as
a single woman, or my worldwide travels. And serving an LDS mission, and
learning a foreign language before I met my husband, while immensely satisfying,
can't compare to motherhood and being a wife. I've seen both sides. And it's
motherhood that has opened my eyes to the essential elements of happiness and
fulfillment. I found nothing to criticize in Julie Beck's talk. She was right
Thank you for your talk and testimony.
I converted to the LDS church as a teenager. My first baby was born when I was
18, my last at 44. I loved being a mother!How did I stimulate my
children intellectually? I could read and I wasn't lazy! I studied. I took them
to plays, art galleries, zoos, meetings, concerts--even opera. They went on
magazine interviews. I homeschooled five of them.I also sewed,
canned, quilted, upholstered, studied antiques and decorative arts, bred and
trained prize horses, and remodeled and restored houses. All this was learned
AFTER I married. For 9 years, I was in charge of building Habitat for Humanity
houses. I did fund raising, publicity, recruited volunteers, and started what
became a thriving thrift store. I published magazine articles and co-wrote two
LDS novels.There was time to help one son overcome dyslexia. My
Downs son has read the Book of Mormon and is a service missionary. 3 children
have Bachelor's degrees, 3 have Master's degrees, and another was valedictorian
of his law school.My daughter, daughters in law, and I appreciated
Sister Beck's talk! We've "worked" outside the home. Our most important "work"
is in our homes!Sunstone--stop invalidating us!
Sister Beck was/is right even if in my family, my wife works and I have taken
care of the 4 kids now all grown. I have taken great flack for this from time to
time, but it is a choice we made way back in the beginning and for good reason.
I have earned money over the years in many different was, to include Foster
Care. Also being a 40% Disabled Vietnam Vet. About three years ago I went back
to School and obtained my College Degree. We believe that the kids should be
raised by their parents and do not believe in Day Care although a Baby Sitter
and Relatives from time to time are okay. Like many people we do not fit Sister
Becks or for that matter the LDS ideal, but that does not make Sister Beck Wrong
nor does it make us Wrong. It is just the way it is and has to be. The same as
it is in many cases. My wife is a very active mother and is on the Mainland on
Vacation with the Two Youngest 19 and 17, both 2008 High School Grads, Seminary
Grads, going to College etc.
Thanks Mom for staying home and being there for me. There when I woke up. There
when I came home. There when I went to bed. Maybe it wasn't so glorified in
your circle of friends, but they are all gone and the rest of us
remain...grateful children for your commitment, love and sacrifice.
I felt the talk to be wonderful! In fact, I think I will download it and listen
to it again.
So does this mean that us that are homemakers get to throw a fit the next time
someone talks about the wonderful women who work outside the home. Should we be
offended every time Hillary Clinton talks. So there is one little talk that
comes from the other angle and all you feminist have a stroke, while we have to
put up with the other side of the story every day. calm down
It's not always easy to follow the gospel of Jesus Christ. Even the best of us
have to make some difficult choices in order to be saved. In the bible, Christ
told a young men that he must sell everything he had and follow him. The boy was
sorrowful, but he had a choice. It's not always easy for women to stay at home.
It's not always easy for a man to go to work either especially in this world of
two-income families. I used to be fearful that I would not be able to support my
family. But I have been blessed. My wife is grateful for the opportunity to stay
home with her kids. And anyone who has the nerve to tell her that she is naive
or a slave who doesn't know what's good for her, is an extremely condescending
and arrogant human being. Such individuals would advocate policies that induce
individuals to make decisions that are "for their own good." How arrogant to
think that you know better than them. The LDS church is not a cafeteria. Our
country is based on freedom of religion. Gripe all you want. Nobody is making
you do anything.
said..."He who takes offense when no offense was intended is a fool, and he who
takes offense when offense is intended is usually a fool."
I don't know any other organization in the world where women are viewed with
such high respect as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. So before
anyone starts to complain how badly done by they are by the Church, look around
and compare to see if anyone else sees the value of women and their
possibilities for good as this Church.
I am very sorry that man told you you didn't know you were a slave. That was
such a rude comment to make to you. That person needs to learn about respect. He
has no right to offend just because you didn't agree with him.Know
that what you are doing is the right thing. You don't need anybody to tell you
that. And also you shouldn't let anybody to put you down. Just wait until the
Second Coming and we will see who was right. I am a working single
mother of two and I've always counciled young mothers to treasure and spend
every minute they can with their kids. I've had some success in my job and it
could've been more but I've always put my kids first and I have never regreted a
second any of the sacrifices I made for my kids because I DO know that my kids's
success in life as good children of our Heavenly Father will be my success. That
IS my career goal in life. Job is only the means that I have to support my
family. It's time to give the right priority to things.
I am so grateful for the talk and my friends and I agree that it was a great
talk. Her counsel has only helped our marriage and family!
I've listened to her talk numerous times and every time, I'm imspired to be a
better father and more in struck by the porfound everlasting influnence of a
Mother on everyone in her family circle. If you have one focus on the Savior
then your life is simplified!Because we can not do it on are own, we have
to say alot of little prayers for help everyday, and rule by gentleness and
meedness and longsuffering and love unfeined, or we have no power or influence.
Raising kids can definantly be trying to any person.
Are you really serious?
Perspective: We do not know!! Its called Name but No Game. Have you ever been to
someones house and they have said "I am Mormon and I Smoke/Drink/ Drink
Coffee/Tea, Beer, and am not active, nor are my wife and kids" 2 Generations
back to find a Priesthood Holder to give a Name and a Blessing. However the
Baptism at age 8 will take place, even though 6 1/2 years of Sunday School has
not taken place. To Busy for conference and shop/work on Sunday, but where
"Mormons." Pro Choice "but where Mormons" etc. Perhaps they are those people.
I am reminded of the scripture that states,"The wicked take the truth to be
hard, but the righteous love the truth." You decided where you stand......
I always love people who think that Gods laws and doctorins are up for debate.
Yes, I have faith, but not blind faith, I follow but I also think. I have
tolerance and enjoy the differences in others. Ms Beck has in mind a stereotype
that many women can't match or don't wish to, yet those women are wonderful
Christ-centered saints.Conference talks are/may be edited after the fact.
If something said in a talk can or has been misinterpreted, a "new" talk is
given with a cough track added. I find that somewhat disingenuous because at no
point is it noted, when that talk is published or placed on a CD, that it is
edited and not the original comments. Church leaders, as time has gone on, have
dramatically changed views on birth control, (in 1910 Jos F. Smith stated that
any attempt to limit a family size was falling into the hands of the devil),
women working, college education and careers for women. Folks it's not doctrine
but opinion. When Jos Smith stated there were men living on the moon, it was his
opinion. When BY spoke of Blacks invalientcy in the preexistence, it was his
opinion. They are mortal men, and women. Folks WAKE UP and think.
This address was a typical E. Benson, M. Peterson, B. Cckonkie talk expressing
the Church leader's views butwithout them having to admit to ii and the
flock is left with same question of "Is this doctrine or not?"
Re: PeterYour comment that women need to understand and accept their role
sounds like the Taliban. Maybe understanding and accepting their mission in life
would be more appropriate. Which, by the way, applies to men also. We all need
to recognize our gifts and use them where ever the spirit leads. Personal
revelation is just that. There are too many who judge others by their own
perceptions. Too many who like to hold mirrors up to others instead of turning
it around to see their own imperfect reflection.
It takes very little character to be offended, to be mal-content and noisy and
find fault with someone's words. That is what our culture has gravitated to.
It takes a lot more character to stand up for an ideal that is worthwhile and
not in keeping with the conventional thinking of the day. You think they didn't
"know" there would be a backlash? I wish I had a mother like the one described
in Sister Beck's talk. It would have made a world of difference.
Lots of rebellious sisters out there, eh?
I was bouyed up to read the conviction of so many to the principles of the
Proclamation while reading the comments. My wife and I both majored in Family
Science at college and read much literature that showed the affects of mothers
not being there physically or emotionally for their children. Personally I feel
that parents who aren't willing to sacrifice their personal ambition for a while
to raise their children probably shouldn't have them. There is a tradeoff
between the what is best for the children and a parent's selfish desires. I have
realized that I can't pursue some ambitions because I have children. That
sacrifice makes me love them so much more. Women who are willing to put off
their ambitions for a time to be there for their children are my greatest heros.
"Greater love hath no man than this that he layeth down his life for his
friends" Women who are willing to give up a part of their life to raise their
children have that greatest love as they are laying down their own intersts,
career pursuits, and their lives, as child rearing is so encompassing, to bless
others and they will be rewarded.
On occassion I hear my local authorities or the General authorities speak, and I
get upset because they clearly don't understand my situation. After
I take a step back, reflect, and evaluate myself, I ALWAYS find that I am being
prideful and in need of making corrections in my life.
In my experience, women who needed to work outside the home to provide the
basics for their family have always been blessed to have great kids. These Moms
are supporting their families, not a lifestyle. Their kids are their number one
priority regardless of their work schedule and the Lord blesses them
When we lived in Texas my daughter's 9th grade teacher asked her class - who
did they want to be when they grew up. My daughter said, "I want to be a mother
and stay home, raising my children, and supporting my husband." She was the
only girl in the class who wanted that. So who is raising the next generation?
Seven dollar an hour people at daycares?
But I sometimes look at blogs to catch the latest things being said. It's
interesting and sad that some in your church will say "this is from "God" if you
don't like it...leave". Oh really? Does that sound like "God" to you? I have
found peace in another area and in no one religion, but with the good that many
religions have. I feel that I have "God" with me. I don't feel that with your
church. Stop judging people.
Sister Beck's talk should have been given at the General RS Conference. If it
had, there would have been less problems. It wasn't. It was given where
husbands, wives, children, singles, etc. were listening. In many cases with
extended family.I listened to the talk at home when it was given. I
left the room and went to listen to it somewhere else. I was not
going to listen to it in the same room as my wife and visiting mother-in-law.I have been listening to GC talks for decades. I have never felt like
this before or since. The Proclamation on the Family has comments that discuss
individual situations. Perhaps Sister Beck can learn that from reading it
From my "narrowminded" perspective and limited experience (1 wife) I applaud my
spouse for her choice to be a mother. She could have been a great many things
and successful at them all. But, she chose to be a stay at home mother. As I
watch the skill and love she has as she raises our children I marvel at her
success. Of all my assets my children are the greatest. Her long hours of
devotion to increase their chances of making good decisions in a wicked world
please me greatly. A friend of mine in her early 20's had a record
deal that would have ensured wealth and fame due to her amazing talents. She
"chose" to walk away from it to become a mother. She knew that pursuing either
wealth or fame would have greatly compromised her ability to be the wife and
mother that she wanted to be. I applaud her. I admire her. The world could
learn great lessons from her. Sister Beck was simply trying to
provide council along those lines. Motherhood is one of the greatest privileges
available to mankind. I applaud all women who get that fact and do
I am saddened to see the response to Sister Becks' talk. Her words were those
of comfort and inspiration to me. She has been called by a prophet of God to
help lead the women of the earth and particularly those of the church. The
doctrines of the LDS church are not up for debate by it's members. One cannot
accept some of the church's teachings and not others. Sister Beck didn't teach
anything new; everything she said has been taught by other church leaders
throughout history. I think sometimes we're looking for a fight and a
validation to the things that we do. When ever we are offended by the teachings
of the leaders of our church, we need to take a step back and determine why. If
we feel good about our decisions then there is no need for offense. But for
those of you who are members of the Church...support your leaders! Their job is
not easy and they are required by God to say the things that He would have them
say. Take your issues up with Him, not Sister Beck!
The problem with these types of discussions is that they are based on the one
real issue that disturbs the self appointed intellectual -- they feel they are
being ignored. To those who think of themselves as so very bright, having the
ability to disect every mortal thought and then offer up their own "more
enlightened" view, I can only ask, where is your humility. He/she who is truely
wise bridles their tongue because they are wise enough to recognize their mortal
intellectual limitations. (sent by remote - please excuse typos).
Do you know how many people there are in the world? Only a small number of
people think/or will think like you. Thanks for helping those you can, but
please remember you have also alienated people when you believe everyone needs
to think like you.
Anyone who bases their "value" and "self-worth" on what they do in the work
place misses the point of why we are here, regardless of whether you are a man
or a woman. This conversation always boggles my mind. Although I work at a
prominent law firm in NYC, I do not view myself as a lawyer. That does not
define me or give me a sense of self worth. It is simply what I do to fulfill
my God-given role as a father and the provider for my family. I am a member of
the church, a husband and a father first. Everything else I do is ancillary to
that and intended to bolster my ability to fulfill these God-given callings and
my present and future church callings.
Thank you Sister Beck, for your powerful voice for what is RIGHT. If you follow
what sister Beck stated, your lives will be happy. Period. If you don't, you
will look back with unhappiness and sadness.
I just listened to the archived video to see what the fuss is about...I have to
say, I thought that was a fantastic talk. There have been some great remarks
supporting this talk so I don't have much to add except I sustain Sister
Beck.PS What a jerk who called her a slave. Are you kidding me?!
I hope he wasn't a member.
Amen to "Bear Rug."
Members (or partakers) of Sunstone WANT to be angry. All the time. Their power
comes from fomenting anger and offence-their own and others. If there isn't
currently something to be mad about, they'll re-hash something. There are a lot
of members of the Church that have genuine grievances and righteous indignation.
Those in Sunstone try to convince EVERYBODY who will listen to their vitriol
that they should be LOUDLY grieved and offended. "Stirring up hearts" is their
Sister Beck is inspired as much as any other General Authority and we would do
well to remember that.
Corinthians 7; 34 There is difference also between a wife & a virgin. The
unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in
body & in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world,
how she may please her husband. And this I speak for your own profit; not that
I may cast a snare upon you, but for that which is comely, & that ye may attend
upon the Lord without distraction. Those that don't have a job are also supposed
to place more time on walking with the Lord, which includes children, but if
your heart isn't to raise your children with love & understanding, then wouldn't
it be better to allow those that can hold that position to raise your children &
for you to get a job?
Amen, sista (or brother)! I was going to write the same thing: this talk was to
MOTHERS. And there are plenty of well-educated, intelligent, driven women
(myself included) who CHOOSE to be MOTHERS. How absolutely insulting to be told
you are a slave and you don't even know it (by being a mother). I have a few
words for that person, but they are mostly four letter words, so I'll keep them
to myself. I, personally, cried throughout Sister Beck's talk (what,
does that make me some kind of feminine wimp?). I felt totally validated that I
was doing the right thing for MY family: raising MY OWN children. Not everyone
can do it, but I can, and I was grateful for her words. So lay off,
all you feminist Nazis. Make your own decisions, pray about them and with your
answer, move forward. It doesn't matter what anyone says to you then, does it?
But be prepared if the answer is not "go to work," but instead "care for your
own babies." Your answer may change at times in your life, but if it's "stay
home," then bless the soul who chooses the vomit over the money.
Amen. This is about maturity. Make your own decisions, women. If they are right,
it doesn't matter what anyone says.
The great "sifting" is increasing and the malcontents surface with even greater
fury.....those not willing to yield their hearts to the Lord and his marvelous
plan look for worldly justification and human validation for what is lacking in
spiritual guidance. They let go of the iron rod and succumb to those who mock
from the great and spacious building. We see the prophecy of 1 Nephi chapter 8,
and also chapter 11 being played out again and again in the world today....and
evidenced by comments and blogs that ensue from the malcontents at presentations
such as the SUnstone etc. Kudos to the many who are holding fast to the rod as
evidenced by the many great comments made here. As for me, the Holy Ghost
confirmed and carried Sister Becks words deep into the fiber of my soul just as
it has on numerous other occasions including Sister Nadauld's amazing talk given
several years prior. Hold to the rod....be worthy of and hold to the guidance of
the spirit....not lulled away by the carnal mind. Yes the Lord's great sifting
is hastening it's pace. For the pioneers....a physical trek...for us a spiritual
trek...who will respond with commitment and endurance.?
This story is not newsworthy. The Desertnews is trying to make something on
nothing. I just reread Sister Beck's talk. It is inspirational and beautiful.
My wife loves and values her time raising our six children. She graduated BYU
and loved her job as a flight attendant when we got married. She joyfully quit
her job to start a family. I love how my wife values the sciptures over
material possessions and careers. She is a beautiful example to our four
daughters and everyone she meets. Her flight attendant friends tried to talk her
out of quiting by telling her a career, money, status, glamor were more
important than children. These women looked forward to going home each night to
their tiny dogs dressed in clothes, gay partner or lonely misery. Words can not
describe the beauty and joy a family and children can bring in this life and the
eternities. My wife knows there is an eternal influence and power in motherhood
and nothing in selfishness.
those it applied to. Unfortunately, there are mothers that would be sensitive
to it because they possibly cannot spend enough time as they would probably
like. This is due to financial obligations and is becoming more and more
common. We need talks like this and also talks to inspire and help women who
What bothers me is the fact that Beck seems to cookie-cutter the sense of a
woman's purpose in life. Contrary to what Beck appears to think, WE
ARE NOT ALL ALIKE. There are some women who happily bear numerous children and
thoroughly enjoy staying home, house-keeping and caring for the children. Some
women don't want, or can't have, children, and enjoy having a career. The
largest number (like me) both want to bear and care for children AND pursue
their careers. All are valid lifeways, and I support the right of each woman to
choose the path she wishes to follow. Beck implied that only the
first of those three kufeats is valid and worthwhile. By her comments, she
demeaned the hopes, desires and wishes of a large number of the people she is
supposed to represent and, in the process, invalidated the women woho don't fit
her perception of what a woman is supposed to be. That set my teeth on edge.Sad.
It seems obvious why the Proclamation was important. The world is attacking
families. Having a family may mean postponing some opportunities for some. That
is a sad fact. Of course it is hard not to be able to do what you
know is the most important thing in life is. All that other stuff; careers,
degrees, publications, hobbies, Church callings, whatever, is just there to
facilitate something more important - or then to provide some uplifting
experiences.No argumentation changes the fact that parenthood is the
most important project in our lives. Unlike marriage, parenthood only has a
window of 15-20 years to really make a difference (often much less). Why not
give it your best shot? That is what sis. Beck's talk was about.Because, face it, your degrees and colleagues won't come visit you when you're
90 and can't get around anymore. Your kids will, if you gave them what they
needed.And notice: All this said without using the words "woman" or
"man". It is equally true for both. Make your own application and quit
You ROCK, Woman!! That is what motherhood is all about: doing, being, becoming,
learning, sacrificing, creating, loving. Way to go!My mom was a
first-time mother at 20, with "only" two college years under her belt, yet she
is one of the most intelligent women I know. Just because a woman becomes a
mother at a young age doesn't mean she leaves her brain at the door of the
hospital delivery room.
We men get semi-annualy beat up for pornography, gambling, not doing our duties,
mistreating our wives and children and whatever else we apparently need to
hear...still going to church and trying to be better and I suspect that 99+
percent of the women in the church are even trying harder than that and without
having to be called on the carpet. The church would be worthless without the
I grew up with a stay at home mother who was the epitome of Mormon motherhood -
great grandaughter of Utah pioneers, she baked bread, sewed, canned, did her
genealogy, kept a clean house, taught Primary, Relief Society and homemaking
classes, you name it she could do it. And plenty that a man could do too. I
grew up wanting to be like her - I never wanted a career, couldn't think of
career that would more fulfilling to ME than that of wife and mother.I have been fortunate enough to marry a man who wanted me to do whatever would
make me happy, and while we will never be rich (or upper middle class either),
I've been lucky enough to be able to stay at home most of our marriage since our
first child was born. I chose this - and I am supremely happy with my choice.
I home school, I pursue hobbies, I work hard at keeping our expenses down and I
do a lot that other people pay others to do - so I figure I contribute a lot
financially as well. I pity the fool who calls me a slave or mindless idiot.
This is one of those clear examples of "God would do what I do if He just had
all the information."
to bigjn, You forget that not all of these 500 women are neccesarily in
the church. Janice Allred is no longer a member, and is probably among the top
ten most guilty people under the catagory "Evil Speaking of the Lord's
anointed". She along with Lavina Anderson has formed an organization dedicated
to exposing church leaders for committing "spiritual abuse" whatever in the
world that is. Margeret Toscano has also been excommunicated. So that is
at least 20% of the presenters are not part of the 13 million plus members.
Yep...you were serious. You clearly did not LISTEN to the message.
Out of all that was presented you came away with men must wear white shirts???
Then you make the grand canyon sized leap and obnoxious overreaching comment
that Sister Beck is on the road to becoming a "RS nazi" and refer to her as a
"loose cannon"???Sounds like you're on a road...
A male supporter of this group called a mother who chose to stay home with her
children a slave? Try saying that to my wife and she'll thump you through the
window of your smartcar faster than one of these ladies can hyphenate their last
name. Sounds like hypocrisy lies beneath. Oh yeah, I checked out the
list of signers on the site, the ones in my area are the same ones that complain
about anything church leaders have to say. They don't have issues, they have the
I just checked out the Sunstone Symposium. I at first thought it was a BYU
thing, clearly not. I was then interested in the serious issues they address so
I visited their website. When I came across their earth shattering article, "You
can be a Mormon and a nudist" (I am not making this up)I realized the whole
thing is just a joke. The sad thing is there are 500 of the arrogant left who do
not see the joke. Forget "You Can be a Mormon and a Nudist." How
about "You Can be a Mormon and a Wierdo." These fringe members seem to suffer
from delusions of normalcy. Still laughing. Canadiandy
re: Brainless IntellectualsYou may or may not be right. But, this
site, like others, is for comments. People have a right to comment. It is
something people do every day in many ways. Sites like this can enlighten, or
anger, or make you laugh. I don't think that is a bad thing. Freedom of
expression is fine. So is freedom to agree or disagree. I would never consider
myself an intellectual. I am just getting use to being human. Besides, who could
qualify as an intellectual? The best definition I ever heard was: "Anyone who
can listen to the William Tell overture and NOT think of the Lone Ranger."
OK I'm a man and as such perhaps I do not understand what this is all about.
Ladies, just do what you want to. Ultimately this is all up to you not Sister
Beck, not the church hierarchy, not anyone but you. If you do not want to feel
undervalued then don't feel that way. Pursue a career or be a stay at home Mom.
But decide for yourself and don't wait for someone to tell you it is OK. The
church is based on revelation. Go get your own. All this whining only reinforces
the notion that women cannot think for themselves. You do not need someone else
to tell you what to do or validate your decision. If you want your own life then
take it. Don't ask someone to give it to you.
Quote: "Margaret Toscano, a professor of classics at the University of Utah,
said.....the backlash reflects the idea that it's more acceptable to question
women's authority than men's in the church."What?!How in
the world did Margaret Toscano ever get that?I've heard Sis. Beck's
talk and that idea wasn't even close to being in there.Offenses....if you want to find them, you will.
"I Did Leave" wrote: "It's interesting and sad that some in your church will say
'this is from "God" if you don't like it...leave'. Oh really? Does that sound
like "God" to you?'I'm sorry you did leave, but that was entirely
your choice. I'm glad you've found a level of peace in your decision.But I think what Jesus said was, "Come follow me." He didn't say, "Hey, only
follow me in those things you agree with, but if perchance there's some areas
where we disagree, well, what the heck, that's OK. Go ahead and ignore my advice
and it's still OK."I'm reminded of the young man that came to Jesus
and asked him what he should do. Jesus told him to keep all of the commandments.
The young man said he had kept them all from his youth. Jesus told him to then
sell all his possessions and follow him. But the young man put his head down and
walked away.Using your philosophy, I suppose the young man was just
fine in what he did?No one said he was bad -- he just didn't do
everything he was asked.It's not always easy is it?
I never thought Sis. Beck's talk would be taken the way it has or that the
family would be attacked like this, by no other than some of the women in the
church. When General Authorities give talks about certain topics, I believe
some of them do not apply to me, personally, or at that specific stage of my
life. It is the same in this case. If you are not a mother, then don't worry
about it. If you are a mother who is single or widow, the Lord has great
rewards for you, and quite frankly this is not directly for you. If you are a
mother who is able to and decides to stay home with your children, then you
would greatly benefit from this talk. If you are a mother who is able to and
decides NOT to stay home with your little ones, then this talk may not be
pleasant to hear. If you are offended by it, I encourage you to read "A
Proclamation to the World" and compare it with her talk and notice if there is
any difference. Pray about it. I hope those who were offended by it will seek
Camille - DON'T PAY ANY ATTENTION TO ANYONE WHO WOULD TRY TO
MINIMIZE YOUR ROLE AS A FAITHFUL LATTER-DAY SAINT AND A LOVING, STAY-AT-HOME
MOTHER!!!GOD W-I-L-L BLESS YOU FOR YOUR TIRELESS EFFORTS AT RAISING
HIS CHILDREN.Others may rant and rave if they wish, but stand
strong, sister, stand strong!!!God bless you in your righteous
endeavors as a Latter-day Saint woman and mother.Regards - Dan
Maloy Enid, OK
Paul, I don't know how old you are, but it's been forty years since the McDonald
case threw out the rules that flight attendants had to be single. I have
numerous friends from high school and the community who are wonderful mothers of
families AND flight attendants at the same time.That said, I did
read Julie Beck's remarks and feel they may have been misinterpreted by some.
The title of her talk was not the greatest choice...had it included the phrase
"to mothers who know" or "to mothers of the church", it would have been more
clear that she was addressing LDS mothers, rather than marginalizing women who
are single or childless. And rather that an attack on LDS women who
are mothers and who work and who do a good job of both, the talk could also be
viewed as a wake up call for stay at home LDS moms who aren't the greatest
homemakers (poorly kept homes or large numbers of children lacking
discipline...anyone who has been to a family style restaurant in Utah knows what
I mean, you've all seen them).
Sir - I applaud you for your wisdom in recognizing Sis Beck's.Amen to you, Sir! Amen!
Couldn't have said it better myself.
"The time is coming when we will be mixed up in these now peaceful valleys to
that extent that it will be difficult to tell the face of a Saint from the face
of an enemy to the people of God. Then, brethren, LOOK OUT FOR THE GREAT SIEVE,
FOR THERE WILL BE A GREAT SIFTING TIME, AND MANY WILL FALL; for I say unto you
there is a test, a test, a test is coming, and who will be able to stand?"Heber C. Kimball, from the "Life of Heber C. Kimball", pg 446
No, Sis. Beck is not the Prophet. However, when she speaks, if she (or anyone
else) speaks in accordance with the promptings of the Holy Ghost, she speaks
with the same power and authority of the Prophet because then she would be
speaking the words of God.Is that not what the Lord's chosen prophet
speaks?, the words of God?"And this is the ensample unto them, that
they shall speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost.And
whatsoever they shall speak when moved upon by the Holy Ghost shall be
scripture, shall be the will of the Lord, shall be the mind of the Lord, shall
be the word of the Lord, shall be the voice of the Lord, and the POWER of God
unto salvation." - Doctrine and Covenants 68: 3-4Now, who says LDS
women are doomed to weakness and second-class status?.....
Do these women really think they are going to be able to change the ideal with
their complaining? I am so glad my mom displayed the principles Sister Beck
outlined in her talk. I have had a great life because of her. You
do the best you can with your situation, while striving for the ideal. I think
most Latter-day Saints understand this concept. If there are areas that you can
change, selfish endeavors that may need to be put away in order to live the
ideal, then we need to try and make those changes. One thing is certain, the
lack of mothers living up to the principles Sister Beck taught is causing many
problems in society today. It can have lasting effects on a family for
generations. Thank you Sister Beck for teaching us principles that are badly
needed in today's world.
"Boo Hoo to you men and women that gauge your successes by the $$$$$ in your
pockets. Or VP plaque on your door."But money put a roof over the
heads of yur family, food on the table, clothes on their backs, school supplies,
pays for weddings and missions, and your retirement.Instead of
this:"Dads - Provide for and protect your family. Help your wives with ALL
she's in need of. She has a much tougher responsibility than you anyway.Moms - Nurture and raise your children to be positive influences on
society. Sustain and support your husbands, because you can be their largest ego
inflators and they like that."Try this:Dads and Moms- Provide
for and protect your family. Help your spouse with ALL they're in need of. Nurture and raise your children to be positive influences on society. Sustain
and support your spouse, because you can be their largest ego inflators and they
like that.My problem with the current patriarchal system in place is
that it absolves fathers of providing fatherly nuturing ("Wait until your father
get's home" mentality.)My wife and I both teach, clean, and take
responsibility for our kids.More father's should.
Wow this turned into nothing more than testimonials. This was a silly article to
run in "a newspaper" and the comments are just embarrassing. It is little wonder
why the culture and people of church ar continually mocked.
You really think that the 500 women or so "risked their membership" by signing
an on-line petition or forum about Sis Beck's talk?That is
completley laughable!!!You are either an extremely in-active LDS
member or you're a non-member pretending to be one.Puh-lease!!, quit
trying to make the LDS church and its leaders look like the Nazis of WWII.I'm 42 years old and have been associated with the LDS faith all my life
and know it takes a whopping lot more than just saying "I didn't like that" to
get you excommunicated.And yet, to those non-members that believe
"Horrors! Members can't leave Mormonism if they want to!", all it takes is a
request to remove your name from the rolls.Rock on, Sis. Beck, rock
After reading some of the misguided, feminist comments in this article, it is
truly sad that a few intellectuals have such a large voice on the role of
motherhood. The notion that it is degrading and that secular thinkers and career
women are so much better off for expanding their horizons far beyond the realm
of the home is also false. I work with several female physicians,
none of them members of the Church, who frequently lament their choice and
express how conflicted they feel for choosing a career that takes them away from
their children too much. Nobody has been brow-beating them with the restored
gospel their whole lives, but they seem to sense that their role as a mother is
far greater than the career they have chosen. How do they know that?!
From one lost puppy:"Any thinking church member should know that the
Lord doesn't really have much to do with his own church."Uh,
what?On the contrary, even those who may not belong to the LDS
religion, even any religion, can understand the logic that if God has a church
then He'd be interested in what goes on inside of it. Otherwise, why would God
have instituted it?
I smell a rat.No "real" LDS member worth their weight in salt would
say that they need to "sift through the garbage presented to us" in church
meetings to find morsels of truth.Me thinks you're a non-LDS person
just here to stir up trouble.
You are a fool.
Why don't people get it. The church was not created to express individualism. It
is a vehicle to create a prefect society. A society of peace, prosperity, and
happiness. This can only be accomplish if we sacrifice. Men must give up that
"natural man" and become "saints". Men have to become examples to our children
and not run after the world. Children need Mothers willing to sacrifice what
they want for the needs of the child. This is the ultimate sacrifice we must all
give to become like our Heavenly Father. He gave could have enslaved his
children to do his will; but instead he gave us his life to serve us. If
you don't like that idea of creating an ideal society (which God has asked us
create), the world teaches individualism where you can do whatever you feel is
right. I choose to try to create that society. I praise every woman that has the
ability to be a MOTHER. That is why we must choose for ourselves what path we
I was in no way offended by her talk, why? b/c I am not doing anything wrong in
my life. Those who choose to get offended point your finger at yourself, the
truth hurts, doesnt it??
"And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard
things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I
justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day;
wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard, for it cutteth them to the
very center." - Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi 16:2I am not trying to be
cruel, people, but if Sis. Beck's talk offended you, you need to make some
changes in your life or at some point in time, suffer the consequences.Now, you must decide, are these merely the words of a fellow human being
posting this, or are the words from this guy, "Nephi", the words of an ancient
prophet called by God?Everyone must decide for themselves.
All that you Sunstone "intellectual"(??????) boo-wooers (and you wanna-be
Sunstoners)accomplished was to send everybody running for their old Ensigns or
to lds.org to re-read Sis. Beck's talk---to see what they must have missed that
has caused all this aggrieved howling. And what did anybody discover after all
that? That it is YOU who have a problem!!
Please remember when you are quoting numbers that 13 million may be the stated
membership, however, at least 50% are not active - 7.5 million, at least 50% are
children - 3.75 million, and it's about fifty-fifty male/female - therefore,
generously 2 million women active in RS around the world. The LDS church has
stated there are more members outside North America, so now we're down to 1
million active women who had a possibility of hearing about the website for
those who feel disenchanted. There are 500 respondents is likely more
significant than you think.It is telling that when women have left
the church or been excommunicated, especially when it is due to the issues under
discussion, that members discount them automatically. Have you considered for
even a moment that these women did not walk out the church doors with a smile on
their face, but rather with great heartache and turmoil of conscience to walk
the path of integrity for their lives? Can you scoff so easily at the
heartrending decision to leave?
I feel sorry for those who would like to have children but haven't had the
opportunity. Children are very challenging and there are lots of menial tasks
associated with their upbringing. However, I can't think of anything more
rewarding than creating a living person, teaching him/her right from wrong, and
seeing him/her make good decisions and become kind, loving, successful
individuals. I graduated with honors from a respectable University and enjoy my
occupation. However I get no where near the joy in my employment that I get
from my children and spend time with them. I wouldn't sell either of my
children for all the money in the world, for awards, recognition, power, or
whatever. I'm making 100x the difference in my childrens' lives than I'm making
at work.What if your mother would have chose an occupation and
business success rather than having children? You wouldn't exist. People are
free to make the choice not to have children, and enjoy fine dining, exotic
vacations, big toys, and there free time. I don't have a problem with that. As
for me and my house, we love our family!
I am an LDS husband and father to 4 beautiful children. From the day I started
my professional career, over 17 years ago, my wife has stayed at home. For over
16 of those years she has been a stay-at-home mother. Some days my work hours
are short, other days, they are long. Always, though, my wife, a quiet,
unassuming stay-at-home mother, has worked harder, endured longer and sacrificed
more than I have in "the working world".Anyone that says that LDS
mothers who stay at home to run a household and raise children are doomed to
live lives of quiet failure are, to be blunt, completely clueless.I'm a proud, passionate U.S. Air Force pilot who defends your great country
and my Latter-day Saint wife makes me look like a sissie.After being
married to my sweetheart for almost 20 years, I am convinced that what makes me
wife so strong is her willingness to dig in and get the job (of being a mom)
done and done right. I am a lucky man indeed, and as soon as I post this, I'm
going to tell her so.The caravan moves on!...
As a single woman I felt Sis.Beck was correct. When I become the mother that is
the ideal that I want to seek for. I also wonder about those who are having
hissy fits what do they think they will be doing in the next life ? Not on some
career path that is for sure.
Not a fan of Utah mormons. But sis Becks talk was wonderful. I do not see why so
many women have to cry about what she said. I believe if they chose to follow
the counsel their lives would be greater enriched. Sad so many mormons cry after
general conference. Become a man or women. SIs Beck is awesome!
Primary children are taught to and sing "Follow the Prophet". It sounds like
too many adults never learned or forgot that! It is time you critics turned your
upset inward on yourselves and "Follow the Prophet"! When you have the "calling"
from God to advise the whole Church and His authority to do so, then you may be
given the chance to advise us in conference. Until then you really need to
"Follow the Prophet" or you will be left behind. You need to build your own
testimony,and not presume to "lead" the Church. "Many are called, but few are
chosen...", and you know the rest. May you strive to be "chosen" and not
"critic" yourselves out of Eternal Lives.
Imagine that, girls like to use their brains for more than just producing
offspring and ironing their husband's shirts.
I cannot believe all of the views that people got out of Sister Beck's
Talk. A wive is there to stroke her husband's Ego?Come on.Women have more to offer to this world than to act as a cuff-link on her
husband's shirt.I heard Sis. Beck's talk, and while I agreed with
it, I think in no way does it absolve the father of his responsibility to be a
parent.I also believe that women not only have a right to recieve
and education, but it a necessity.Husbands do die, people get
divorced, and if your talking "family values" and "family preparedness", would
it not make sense to have the wife prepared to step in and take over in a worst
case scenario? Would the wife be better working at the quickie-mart or have an
education and be prepared to step into a professional job.My wife
has her Master's Degree, and while she stays at home, I understand that she is
with me because she chooses to be there, and not because she's afraid to leave
because she would wonder where the money comes from.I think many of
you are setting yourselves up for failure.
Sister Beck was calling women to be united and immovable in the cause of Christ
and in defending Eternal Families. It sounds like most people did not read or
listen to the talk with a prayer in there heart to understand by the spirit.
This talk was inspired and very direct and clear. Please read it again and pray
to understand the message. It is truly a remarkalbe message. I hope we can
rise to the call and unite as women to defend families.
It is so intriguing that the DN chose to do a story on this roundtable, when it
most assuredly (from the percentage of comments from readers) is a very small
minority viewpoint of the issue at hand. News has truly moved away from finding
the balanced truth and toward direct manipulation of what is an important event.
If this newspaper were after the real story, and the correct
reaction to the original talk, it would have 80-90% of it's article about the
supportive viewpoint and 10-20% of the negative. This article is the exact
opposite. In responsible journalism, the event should not have been covered
without more research to find the percentage of reaction to both sides first.
News writers and editors are merely entertainers, but under a subtle guise of
"the facts", and articles should always be read with that in mind.
500 out of 1 million is .05%. Thats 5 out of 10000, which is not significant.
To SJ Bobkins, Your reaction to Sister Beck's statements about proper
attaire in meetings has a lot more to do with your lack of respect than anything
else. First, as I did point out before, the article is in theory about a
reaction to a different talk than the one you mention. Secondly, I will
never get what is so hard about wearing a white shirt to church meetings. It is
true that revernce is more than dressing nicely, being quiet, and speaking
softly. On the other hand you are not reverent if you do not do these things.
Reverence is at core a respect for the Lord and his Church. People
should have the common decency to realize that church is different than other
things and should be treated as such. I think we far too often act too
casually and without enough reverence in church buildings. It also
strikes me as odd that someone who claims to be trying to reflect a personal
relationship with the Lord in their actions would choose to not do something
simply beause other people feel they should.
Feelings of anger or confusion don't come from the Lord; they come from Satan.
Where the apostles and other Church leaders are concerned, if you disagree or
question something, the best option is to go to God in prayer. Ask Him, and be
willing to hear and accept what he says. He will answer. He will not do anything
that's not in your best interest.
I found it interesting that these women expect the church to define their role,
but get upset when it doesn't fit what they are currently deliberately doing, or
faced with as what life has delt them. That seems sort of, well, self absorbed.
Like, "you must accept me, or I'll be really upset." The fact is, the gospel is
simple, and our resposibilities in it are simple. We do what we can with what
we are ABLE to. Then let it go. Don't get all offended, and don't get all down
on yourself. You know if you are doing everything you can or not. Do what you
can when you can, then let it go. The leaders have said that repeatedly, just
using different words to the same point. Talk about getting hung up on a
re: LambertI hope you are not saying a person cannot be reverent without a
white shirt and tie. I am sure that is not what you meant. I am in a ward where
members who have to work try to get in for sacrament wearing police uniforms,
nursing uniforms, and some other blue collar attire because they are coming or
going to work and it is the best they can do. I have seen some inner city people
who do not even own a white shirt. Shame on anyone who would judge on such
Numbers, schmumbers.How can we reach out in love to those whose
feelings are tender for whatever reason? Can we show more compassion? Can we
offer a listening ear to someone who is overwhelmed in their situation?500 = 1 struggling x 500 individuals. Looks like the we the undershepherds
could be doing some more listening.Not significant? WWJD?
But...My sis-in-law, was raised LDS, went to BYU, married a returned
missionary, and put her education on hold to have a faimly and be a cookie
cutter wife.Half-way through his masters program 5 years and three
children later, she thought something was weird, and she confronted him, and
found out that he was half-way though his sophomore year, had a girlfriend, and
they were up to their eyeball in debt because she trusted her priesthood leader
in the home.Being 27 when the divorce was final, he kept moving
around, jobs and all to avoid child support.Not many men are looking
for 27 year old wives with 3 kids, and so she took on employment which did not
pay well, but provided basic necessities, and she was working until 7:00 at
night, with family members all chipping in to raise these three beautiful
daughters of God.She did everything Sis Beck counseled, has always
kept a current Tenple Recommend, and does not fit the cut-out Sister Beck
described.Some LDS women get lucky, some get screwed.Before you all pass judgement, remember life throws you curveballs, and talks
like Sister Beck's demean and hurt those that tried.
Some people will take anything said in general conference and find a way to blow
it out of proportion. So what if Sister Beck said one or two things you
disagreed with? Move on with your life and forget about it!
I am an LDS male and wish to thank all of you for helping me waste 20 minutes of
my life sifting through the time-worn inane pros and cons of listening to the
General Authorities and then justifying their own thoughts and biases.Read the Scriptures attend your meetings and live your life the best way you
can that gives you joy and leave everyone else to do the same.Remember there are only two things you can take with you into the next world.
Your learning (inteligence) and your genealogy--ancestors and prodigy.
Everything else is a waste of time.
I blew off Boyd Packer's "sex factory" talk, and also Sis Beck's.They don't pertain to us.My wife and I are both college educated,
have children, we both work and we are home when they leave for school, and when
they return. We both help them with their homework, we read scriptures and pray
together, we make meals at Dream Dinners so they are nutricious, fast and easy,
and we eat as a family. We don't have "Family Night", because, in our house,
every night is Family Night.My wife hates cleaning and I hate mowing
lawns, so we hire someone to do it for us. We spend that time with our
children.I, like SJBobkins, hate white shrts, so I don't wear them
and I am told by my fellow High Priest that I don't set a good example for
"their" kids... because I don't wear a white shirt (like I care... are their
kids going to do drugs because of the color of my shirt?).I have
wonderful children, they get good grades, and don't get into trouble. They don't
color during church and smash Cheerios into the pews.Worry about
yourselves, our family is fine.CTR
My grandmother canned, made everyone's clothes, darned socks and quilted.She also drove old cars, had an outhouse, got water from the pump, had a
coal burning stove, and a broom.My wife doesn't need to do that
anymore. We have a Smiths and a Mervins by our house.Different
times...As much as I respect the advice of the prophets of old, they
lived in the context of their times, and we live in ours.Sister
Beck's talk strangely resembled the movie "The Stepford Wives".I
hold a current recommend, but what is the fascination in the church of the
"subserviant" wife?Why are the males so threatened by a strong
woman?Why are the wives so threatened by the thought of going out
and competing for a real job against other women?We listen, then as
the adults in our home, make our own decisions regarding our home.The church is there to provide "advice", and doctine so that we can become an
eternal family.We'll make our own choices, thank you.Being an active Mormon, I am always left thinking, Mormons are weird.Peculiar, maybe, but definately weird...
to: John Pack Lambert | 3:42 p.m.Why do you care about SJBobkins.I'm active LDS, and find his ability to think on his own refreshing. I
would much rathe sit by someone "real" like him in priesthood, than the othe
plastic Mormons.Dude, raise yur own family and not someone else's.
Everyone Tries and sway people one way or another. Isn't it our first, true
impression that matters. What we've felt before being influenced by so much
controversy. Thanks for everyone who posted a genuine comment, that wasn't just
trying to stir up an argument.
"Re: y'all and your numbers | 3:34 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008 500 out of 1 million
is .05%. Thats 5 out of 10000, which is not significant. Sorry."Each
soul is precious in the sight of God.I watched the Olympic opening
ceremonies last night with my wife. We contemplated how God can love so many.1.3 billion people in China.As of June 2008, it is estimated
to be around 6.7 billion.Think about all the people who have
previously inhabitated the earth.Which according to your post makes
you, not that significant either...Sorry?
I do not resent counsel from the General Authorities. I believe, for the most
part, they are more than happy to let people think for themselves.What
gets me are the yahoos in the ward (I don't mean a bishop, just some knothead
know-it-all) who think they know what I should do, and don't hesitate to tell
If you are single, don't worry about Sis. Beck's talk, it is not for you. If
you are a mother who is single or widow, my heart goes out to you and you are
the in the Lord's priority list. If you are a mother who is able to and decides
to stay home with your children, this talk should be very inspiring for you. If
you are a mother who is able to and does NOT decide to stay home, that's when
the issue starts. If you feel guilty about it, reconsider what you are doing
wrong. If truth offends you, you are not in harmony with the spirit and the
Lord's teaching. Please seek to reconsider your decisions and repent.
For faithful members earnestly striving to follow the Gospel, there was nothing
incorrect or upsetting about the talk. Sisters, know your place.
First, I got a belly laugh from "Is this a typo?" cuz I didn't understand the
quote either. Way funny!Those that signed "whatwomenknow.org" (and
probably many Sunstone groupies) should consider reviewing President Uchtdorf's
talk in April, 2008, General Conference called "A Matter of a Few Degrees" in
which he reminds us "...minor drifts away from the doctrine of the gospel of
Jesus Christ can bring sorrowful consequences into our lives. It is therefore of
critical importance that we become self-disciplined enough to make early and
decisive corrections to get back on the right track and not wait or hope that
errors will somehow correct themselves."The vast majority of our
faithful sisters are "on the right track" and are definitely the strength of our
families and our Church!
I can accept who "I" am.Why can't you???
My wife and I waited several years to have children. During these "wonder
years" we focused on our careers and financial security for our future family.
What a joyous time it was to share with my spouse. However, during this time,
we were also subjected to the occasional rude or ignorant comment at church
about not having children. (To date, this type of ignorance has not diminished
our belief in our Savior's Gospel) After making the collective decision to
start our family, our first son (#1) arrived and my wife began to tele-commute,
which did not interfere with the raising of #1. After the birth of our second
son (#2), my wife decided to hang up her "working spurs." This was a collective
decision made by loving spouses, but truly an indiviual decision reinforced by
spousal support. The point being, member or non-member; respect, self-worth and
definition of one's life comes from within regardless of outside influences.
Define yourself and no one can take that from you!
I don't remember hearing anything said by Sister Beck directed at single women
or working women. This talk was directed at those who are Mothers. The talk
was in line with the doctrines pinned in the Family Proclamation. She did not
condemn other roles that women play. Even during pioneer days women
worked outside the home as midwives and store keepers. They engaged themselves
in women's suffrage rights and were encouraged to be educated and well informed.
Those that were mothers tried to be good mothers. Those that weren't played
their own unique roles in the kingdom. Nothing has changed. If you were
offended by the talk ask yourself why. I can't find any reason to take offense.
Sister Beck was right on and those who are offended may be feeling a little
guilty about their choices. I'm Utah born and have lived in other countries and
cultures and find that women everywhere face the same dilemas. Being a mother is
tough. Being a wife is difficult. Being single is difficult. Sometimes are
options we would choose but we choose the best when we can. Those who choose
selfishly probably do feel a little guilty and a little offended.
Seems this talk hit a raw nerve. I'm not surprised. However we choose our
religion,or not, as adults. We always have choices. If women are not treated
with respect all they have to do is leave. Churches cannot sustain themselves.
If women don't go and do the unpaid service work, it's a church of cards and
will fall apart. I have the same questions for mormons as I do for
catholics. You want women to work at home why on earth do you not give them a
paycheck? Why don't you mormon women on the budget committee vote for it? It
would be money well spent.
I'm just amazed there were so many people awake during Conference to get upset!
They leave the church but can't leave it alone... Always gotta be steadying the
As a ward librarian a few years ago, I had the opportunity to read a priesthood
bulletin that clearly stated there was NO dress code for Sacrament meeting.
Young men who were blessing and passing should be encouraged to wear a white
shirt, but it was not required and they should not be denied the opportunity to
participate if they had on another colored shirt. When Sis. Beck said white
shirt I don't think she meant it literally, just clean and pressed. I don't
think she meant hair brushed to perfection either. Anyone who has fixed the
hair of a small girl knows it probably won't last long. In following the spirit
of her words, I take it to mean, take the time to see your kids are properly
groomed for church. You'll all feel better. I've seen many Mothers cringe,
including myself when a deacon passes the Sacrament in a shirt that probably was
retrieved from under the bed that morning. Some Sunday mornings are just that
way, especially when you're dealing with younger ones. I always felt better
when they looked good and it was worth the effort not to feel embarassed. No one
says we're perfect.
I can't wait to read the 07 conference reports again. It must have been very
inspired to receive so much opposition.
Sister Beck, Thank you. You were right on the money with your talk.
Thanks Robert, you are right on. You can all just read "Hold on to your
kids" and some Bert Hellinger books. You'll see clearly that in many years of
research it shows that mothers at home have the best outcome to raising
productive adults who have an active positive part in society. The are an asset
to society rather than a liability. Sister Beck was right on, she's got my
support. The books by the way are from none LDS, just good old Ph.D's.
I find interesting the pervasive assumption amongst many of these comments that
anyone who believes women should have aspects to their identities besides or in
addition to motherhood must therefore be denigrating motherhood itself. I was
one of the speakers being roundly dismissed as an apostate liberal nit-picker,
another assumption I find odd. As it happens, I'm a fully active LDS
stay-at-home mom who thinks raising her kid is the best thing I've ever done. I
thought some of what Julie Beck said was fantastic and other things were less
so. Critically parsing someone's language doesn't mean you're necessarily
offended or even disaffected--it means you give the person enough respect to
think their words might actually matter. If I had no respect for Julie Beck or
the role she plays, I'd have simply ignored her.
It seems that Sister Beck is simply a scapegoat for a podium to use for some
peoples own agenda. Julie Beck has the ears of millions of people and by using
her name and misconstruing her remarks, people are drawn to their agenda. I
went to the Sunstone website and read one article that had 192 comments. I
thought "wow, this must be a popular site". Then I looked at the names. I
counted about 5 or 6 names. They were having a conversation with each other.
The church is not going to change with every wind of doctrine. We all have free
agency. Many of these people are either not members anymore or still attend
hating the doctrine. Would they have their ammunition without attending church
and listening to conference? It is their meal ticket! If they don't agree with
the doctrine or hate the messages from G.C., why attend? Try writing a 20
minute talk that doesn't offend someone. I don't think it is possible. That is
why Jesus was continually persecuted. I find it interesting that they are so
angry with Sister Beck. Why not the LDS church in general? She is just the
transplant: That would be awesome. I'd vote for it in a milisecond.I
find odd the pervasive notion that those of us who spoke on the panel found
motherhood itself degrading. We all bent over backwards to note that motherhood
is essential, that we value it, that those of us who have kids are incredibly
grateful for the chance to be mamas. Saying that women are more than "just
mothers" doesn't mean motherhood is bad, or wrong--it just means every person is
more than one role. We wanted to look both at the role of mothers and the other
roles women can play in society. That doesn't denigrate motherhood. Asserting
that it does reflects shoddy thinking.As for Julie Beck: I wouldn't
look closely at her words and their effect unless I respected her and the
position she holds. Contrary to assumptions here, I'm an active and believing
Mormon and SAHM. Consider the possibility that this article didn't reflect the
complexity of our remarks. It doesn't. Certainly we didn't slam SAHMs--cuz hey,
I am one. I'd have been really annoyed if someone had said I don't matter.
I wish they would have minded their business way back when. Then we women
wouldn't have to vote, we would still be the equivalent of chattel, our husbands
could legally beat us, and us and our children would be considered our husbands'
property. YES!I am grateful for my mother and all the sacrifices
she made for me. I am also grateful for women who decided that women are
people, too. Being a mother is a wonderful role to fill, and I hope no one
would ever look down on that role or suggest it is unworthy or not valuable. I
also think it's wonderful that as a woman, there are other roles I can fill and
that can be fulfilling, since my life didn't take the turns I expected.Seriously, get a grip. Not all Mormons are _________ (fill with stereotype).
Similarly, not all feminists are ___________ (fill with stereotype). And hey,
there are even...DUN DUN DUN...Mormon feminists!
As a single woman in my thirties, I fully sustain Sister Beck's talk! EVERY talk
in general conference talks about what we should be trying to be, and the role
of motherhood and being an example will never change. Does that bother me? No,
simply because I know that what she says is true. Would I love to have that in
my life? You bet. But I don't at all think she is saying to neglect the other
things in my life because I am not married and don't have children. I have a
successful career, and know that I can be an example to the people within my
scope of influence everyday. THAT is something I can control right now. If
you're offended by this talk, you are probably easily offended by a lot of
things which breaks my heart. People who have criticisms with doctrine usually
do not know the doctrines of the church all that well. Just think about it for a
second. This talk is asking us to stand a little taller, why don't we all do it!
regardless of talent or aptitude. Time for a new revelation.
Men may get "burned" at every conference, but as men they hold the priesthood
and have power in the church that women don't. Many women feel very, very
powerless in a patriarchal church that they love. To have the head of the
women's organization (and one of the only female speakers at conference) focus
on that was devastating. It was devastating because it didn't draw them closwer
to God and the Savior-they felt it only spoke to one type of US mother. I think
some women look forward to hearing the president of the women's organization
talk-and were dissapointed when nothing she said applied to them, or it made
them feel like there weren't good enough.Many women feel they don't
have a voice in the church. The 500+ signatures was a way for them to have a
Excellent dialogue: I still have a very hard time believing that so many people
are actually awake during conference. I have listened to over 50 live
conferences, even attending some in person, and it always amazes me how
incredibly boring and monotonous they are. We need controversy like this in
order to help us say awake during the usual, mindless dribble.
Two points to consider:1) The Sunstone symposium is primarily driven
by those who want to push the envelope for the sake of pushing the envelope
rather than for greater understanding.2) Those who have more
interest is changing doctrine to conform to their beliefs rather than vice
versa, might consider attending a church without doctrine or one with is more
devoted to aligning with the popular culture.
"Why are the wives so threatened by the thought of going out and competing for a
real job against other women?"A REAL job? That's right, I forgot
that birthing and raising four children through their childhood is not
considered "real" work. Why? Because it's not a paying job? Because it's so
mindless that any $6/hour day care worker can do it? Hmmm...maybe I
should consider a career change. What is it that you do? I am sure that I can
contribute to society (and my bank account) better by competing for a "real" job
instead of raising the next generation of Americans and church members. Compare a child raised by day care to a child with a competent mother
who chose to raise her/him. Trust me, there is a HUGE difference. My husband was
raised through day care and summer camps, while I was raised by a mother. He is
wonderful, but he is absolutely jealous of my childhood experiences. He watched
TV, I read and did chores. Talk to the day care kids when they're adults and see
how they feel about being set aside while Mom (and Dad) devoted more time to
work than to them.
I have read this whole topic and have this reply. It seems that many people who
have posted here have had to go read the talk online. So I think your spot on in
that they must have been sleeping during conference!
Thanks to Taylor, (1:52 p.m.) for her or his insights. I'm going to use them in
my Sunday School lesson!
As a husband if I showed the respect towards my wife that she deserved as my
companion and mother of our children, praising her and rewarding her for her
efforts she would be much happier and much more successful at her chosen
profession weather it is being a stay at home mom, PhD or both. Unhappy people
are unhappy because they are not loved or appreciated and made to feel under
valued by those they love the most. Don't blame Beck for feeling undervalued,
misunderstood or pigeon holed put the blame right where it belongs demand the
respect that the scriptures say you deserve ...Men love your wives like Christ
loves his church... That love should extend to all women single, widowed,
married and at home, married and working with or without kids etc by all
priesthood holders. That is what I have been hearing in General Priesthood
meeting for the last 38 years I haven't missed one. And yes I have room for
lots of improvement my dear companion points out where I am letting her down.
CW | 5:15 p.m.Anonymous | 7:02 p.m. People disagree with you,
so "THEY" feel "guilty" and should "repent".Everyone of my ancestors
came across the plains, I am a CTR holder, and you are plain offensive and
arrogant. Sister Beck's talk did not offend me, but you do.Who
called you to be judge of the worl?. Why do you think you have the right to talk
to people that way? So some women need to work. They have expained
why, and you tell them they "feel guilty"?Live your own life. Make
your choices, and just because someone thinks differently than you does not make
them wrong.Worry about your own lives. Women do not need the guilt
trips you send them on.re:Mary in NY | 6:49 p.m. Aug. 9, 2008 "I don't remember hearing anything said by Sister Beck directed at single
women or working women. This talk was directed at those who are Mothers."Sister Beck's talk was from the President of the Relief Society, the LDS
"Women's" organization. Her talk was directed at all women. Splitting hairs does
not change this fact.I can see why some feel offended. Let them own
Oh but they are up for debate, that is part of the free will of choice that God
gave man. God wants us to get the best information and then come to our own
conclusion. "If you ask in Prayer, with real intent if the Gospel is True"
Supposedly Smart, Men have Symposiums and spend their time befuddling each other
and achieving little or nothing. Then writing Books the Rest of us ignore. The
Rest of us Post. My faith is based in the Reality of what I have seen. Just like
the Three and The Eight. However you have to have a seed of faith, "if you have
the faith of a mustard seed then you can move mountains" I order to realize what
you do see. With out that its just over your head. I admire my wifes more simple
and trusting faith. Sister Beck was/is correct. All talks do not have to be
pleasing to all people. The Church stresses do not beat your Wife/Husband for a
Reason. Some are offended by that because they either beat their wifes/husbands
,or In their World it just does not happen. The Leaders know that in Reality it
RE: Glenn FollyYour statement "Sisters, know your place", sounds
like something from the 50's down south directed at another select group.
You know this whole thing could be resolved by the Presidency and the Quorum of
12 simply stating that Sister Beck's talk was: The will of the Lord, the word of
the Lord and the command of the Lord.But they won't do it. Why? Because their
image is important that they do not want to appear as being narrow minded or
fanatical; so, the members of the Church are left to fend for themselves!
I am a non-lds, master's degreed, stay-at-home mom. I hate to break this to you
but it seem women beat other women up, emotionally, that make other life choices
different from themselves. It will never cease to amaze me how many women, it's
always women, that tell me how much I am "wasting my education" by staying at
home. It's nice to read someone affirming my choice every once in awhile. I am
also not surprised that other women feel the need to jump of Beck's words.
Instead of this action, I long for the day when my choice is respected along
with the woman that chooses to work outside the home. So long as we invalidate
one another, I know that day is far into the future.
What many here forget is that Mormon women were feminists and that without their
help, the right to vote may have been quite delayed. Should feminism diminish
the role of motherhood simply because we can now chose to work outside the home?
Obvious: get in line everyone. Men speak, women follow. Gee whilikers! Men
know everything, women are to have babies.The roles were set by God
and by God we will follow them.
All should apply D&C 50 to the Sunstone event (and to everything else going on
around them). Among other things, D&C50 sets out three criteria for testing
whether something is the Spirit of Truth: (1) "he that preacheth and he that
receiveth, understand one another," (2) "both are edified," and (3) both
"rejoice together." It goes on to say "And that which doth not edify is not of
God, and is darkness." Some of the comments here edify, some do not.
AMEN, Bear Rug.....some people just HAVE to complain. And yes, the talk was
directed to MOTHERS.
Some people just need to learn to MIND THEIR OWN BUSINESS!
I grew up with an alcoholic step father who sexually and emotionally abused me.
I don't feel badly when "I am a Child of God" is sung. I know the line, "with
parents kind and dear" wasn't written for me. When I sing it I think of what
kind of mom I want to be for MY kids. I'm not offended by the talks about doing
what your parents ask. I relize I am not the audience they are speaking to.
Sis. Beck's article wasn't written to those great sisters who are not married
nor to those who are childless. I feel she was saying to the rest of us, "If
your ladder is leaning against the wrong wall do something about it." I believe
some of the people it bothered feel that way because God has been trying to tell
them they need to improve their parenting and work on their priorities. Yes,
mothering is hard work, she didn't say that it wasn't. I think she was saying
that NO ONE can take the place of a child's mother in loving, raising and being
there for her children.
I agree!!! I have a similar situation. A few years ago I attended a talk given
by the daughter of a prominent member of the Church. Someone asked her what it
was like to have such wonderful parents. Off the top of her head, she
commented, oh it isn't much different than the parenting all good LDS have. I
didn't take offense because she wasn't intending to offend anyone. She just
said what she thought without thinking about those who had a very different
upbringing. She wasn't implying that only the faithful have good parents. Some
could twist her words or take them literally instead of the spirit with which
they were given. She was trying to be humble in saying she wasn't any different
than the rest of us. She just happened to have famous parents. People looking
for the negative will always find it, whether in religion, neighbors, spouses,
floor plans, weather, you name it.
Hope you are! If not, you don't belong most anywhere. I am a woman....I had
two children, but that's only part of what I am. I listen to men, women and
children as they deserve to be listened to. Do I take all they say to heart?
No...(and I'm sure they don't take all I have to say to heart).We are all
equal...different, but equal. Anybody that says we are not (male, female, gay)
etc. will not have a voice for very much longer in the world. Don't believe
me? O.k....just watch.
This conversation is ripe stuff. I think I could capture it as a screenplay, if
only the Coen Brothers would agree to direct!!!
Sis. Beck wasn't just speaking to Mothers along the Wasatch front. She was
speaking worldwide. There are some sisters in foreign lands who may not "know"
how to be an LDS Mother. I visit taught a lady from a foreign country who told
me child abuse was acceptable where she came from. If you got angry, it was
okay to punch,hit,bite,kick etc. and there was nothing the kids could do. She
said that after she joined the church and moved to California, that she learned
this was not appropriate. It wasn't because she beat her kids here and got in
trouble. Her children were grown when she moved here. She said it was the
teachings of the Church that showed her the error of her ways. I grew up in Utah
and had a horrible role model for a mother. I'm grateful for Church leaders,
who through their experience, wisdom and example have taught me through the
Am I understanding this correctly? It sound like many people are saying that
women who choose a career as a child-care provider are respectable and those who
leave their children with them to go to work are respectable, too, but those who
choose to raise their own kids are slaves? No church leader has ever said
anything that should create feelings of guilt or offense. Women who feel that
way are doing that themselves and should seek help. If the whole world followed
the wise advice of Sis. Beck and the countless other LDS and non-LDS leaders the
best they could within their own circustances, many of the world's problems
would not exist because families would be stronger. It is that simple.
Th nose grows longer and the hips grow wider with all these tall tales...lol!
Anna, I think that was just the opinion of one person who confronted a commenter
after the panel. None of the panelists suggested that SAHMs don't do important
work (four of us either are or have been SAHMS!). It's unfortunate the reporter
chose to qoute an interchange which didn't come from the panel and suggest it
reflected our views. THat's poor reporting.Tuffy Parker: I don't
grant your premise, which you state as accepted fact. It begs the question of
how many Sunstone attenders you actually know or have spoken with. A minority
may be there to push buttons/envelopes, but a large portion of us are, as the
Sunstone motto suggests we do, looking for faith in understanding, and
understanding through faith.
Gossip Gossip Gossip....don't you have children to attend too?
So, why are you afraid to answer my question?You just became
indignant, took one question out of context, and danced around it, without
answering.Many moms stay home after the kids are in school.They hate summers because the kids are home, send them on playdates, let them
run the neighborhood and can't wait for school to start, so others can raise
their children for them, and they can get back to the life of a SAHM.They can't even manage that (Wait til your father get's home).Really, if you cared so much, you would homeschool.Sister Beck and
the church gives mom's a pass, so they can feel good about not being a
productive member of society.I see your kids at church, in stores,
running amuck everywhere. If you are a SAHM, then do it!!! So, I'll
just ask again:"Why are the wives so threatened by the thought of
going out and competing for a real job against other women?"Afraid
of losing the title "Queen Bee"?Women need to have goals past being
their husband's cufflinks, and accessory that he polishes up and takes out of
the box oncein awhile.Where is your self-respect?
To: "ramper" and others who criticize Sister BeckI apologize for the
misunderstanding of my previous statement "Sisters, know your place." I stand
by my words, but I should clarify that my statement was motivated by love. I do
not think that I conveyed this intention properly, so I apologize. I do not
wish to demean our Sisters. But I do firmly and lovingly point out that for the
good of all of us, they need to obey the leadership of the Priesthood and accept
their divine role in the Plan.I do not appreciate the comparison of
Sisters' place in the Church with the treatment of Blacks in the 1950's South.
Treatment of Blacks in that era was not divinely mandated.Sisters,
when we exhort you to "know your place" and follow the Brethren, we have your
happiness in mind.
As always. no matter what is said we pitch a big fit to make us feel better. I
listened to her talk also..found nothing offensive whatsoever. I do agree..this
world would be a better place and our children would be much better off , if we
could all raise them ourselves and not let day care do it. We all have different
situations at home, some have to work, some choose to, because being a stay at
home mom drives them crazy. She is not the first person, or even actually leader
of another faith that has said we should make our children our first priority.
Even James Dobson says that mothers should put their children first. I was
working to put money away on a downpayment for a new boat..until it hit
me...this is crazy! I quit and KNOW I did the right thing. It is easy to get
carried away in this world where we are taught to be selfish and think of what
makes us happy.
It sounds like the Sunstone Symposium is a sounding board for LDS feminists with
luke-warm testimonies assuaging their guilt over leaving the care of their
children to strangers in pursuit of high stakes jobs. Our hearts go out to women
who are experiencing economic downturns, abandonment issues, or widowhood and
are thus forced into the job market--I think the Lord blesses them with extra
measures of cooperation from their children and the skills and energy necessary
to pull it off. Because let's face it ladies, raising children is a tough job
requiring lots of energy as does an outside job. I found that when I had to
work, my best went to my employer, and my family got left-overs. Important
priorities like family home evening, prayers, and meals sometimes took a
backseat to more engaging activities like soccor or play practice. And who
hasn't, however unconscientiously, tried to buy off kids with stuff to make up
for less time spent with them? The rewards of successful parenting aren't
realized until it's too late to remedy, so we must go by faith and obedience to
council from the Lord and leaders whom I appreciate for their encouragement and
obvious | 7:44 a.m. Aug. 10, 2008I'm glad the Savior didn't take
such an adverse reaction to His role in this world.I know His
sacrifice was a gift to all of us, His brothers and sisters.
What? There are still "feminists" around?Well, I guess everybody
needs a hobby.
This is the left over dirty dozen (all 12 of them) radical feminist's, left over
from the Alice Paul / Molly Yard movement in the 70's till 1995, that also don't
believe in Sister Beck, or even Mother Goose that is a well-known figure in the
literature of fairy tales and nursery rhymes. Mother Goose is best known in the
United States, in the United Kingdom and other English speaking nations. She is
often prominent in Mother Goose stories, also more commonly known as nursery
Beck's talk was obviously going to be offensive to many (including LDS women)
who have dramatically changed their views on family roles and responsibilties.
That is, so many in Western Society believe that motherhood is not a divine
calling--but at best equal to a career, just another pursuit. Attitudes have shifted vastly in recent years in order to take offense at
Beck's remarks. Just two to four decades ago, virtually no one would have been
offended. Two to four decades ago, her comments would not have even been
Most of what I hear from the so-called feminists here (and there are few things
in history that have harmed women more than so-called feminism) makes it clear
that feminists and other similar whiners don't have the faintest clue as to the
experience of men in the Church. We have strict roles and expectations and
limitations imposed on us as well, but without the choice of focusing on just
the home or just a career. We have to do both.Life is tough for men
AND women. I guess the difference is that the men in the Church (as well as the
truly faithful sisters) just do what needs to be done and don't waste time
whining about things. Sisters, what you want doesn't matter. What God wants is
all that matters.The LDS Church and so-called feminism are
incompatible.It's interesting that the main women in charge of the
discussion are famous apostates and professional anti-Mormons. In other words,
no legitimacy whatsoever.For the liberal types I'll say it more
simply:Shut up, stop whining, and quit being so self-absorbed.
I'm a BIC church member raised in the Pacific NW. I hear a lot about Utah being
the depressed-mother capital of the country, but I haven't seen it in the church
up here. I have two LDS female relatives who have gone on meds for depression:
one is bi-polar and was that way before she joined the church, the other
experienced a round of postpartum depression. In neither case did the church
contribute to the problem. Up here, the church is my support group,
my cheering section for the sometimes tedious job of being a mother. I need the
church to praise motherhood because it is the only place I get support.
Are you saying that liberals and the LDS church are incompatible as well?
The SAHM's are the ones who should read Sis Beck's talk and be offended.You push out six kids and expect everyone else to raise them.Please, if you are going to stay home, monitor you kids. They dig in my
garden, two young neighborhood girls think it is funny to go door to door
Doorbell ditching during the day, and it is repatedly told to the SAHMs, nothing
changes.Where are the SAHM's?I watch them at church,
kids are climping everywhere, coloring, eating food, and SAHM ignores this.You push them out and expect the world to raise them. Primary tachers,
YM and YW leaders, schoolteachers, scoutmasters, and pharmicists with bottles of
presciptions to keep them under control.Then we preisthood bretheren
are assigned to go over during the week and clean the cheerios out of the pews.
Be a SAHM, but do it.Quit being a lazy, sit at home,
cookie cutter, prideful, arrogant, plastice mormon, and take Sis Beck's advice
and raise your kids.Quitbeing indignant, judgemental and do your
job.We would all appreciate it.
I have seen so many neglected children because of parents selfish desires. I am
for mothers and fathers teaching their children to live Christ like lives. I
sustain all of our leaders and know in the end all blessings are determined by
our agency. Whinning and crying teaches children to be selfish and not putting
faith in the Lord. Just be the best you can be. Children should be loved and
nourished. Look to Christ and live.
Re: Glenn FoleyAppreciate your clarification and no need to
apologize to me. I may add I did not criticize Sis. Beck. What I criticize is
the perception that there is a "one size fits all" plan for people and their
mission in life. Each person needs to find that for themselves. A person's
personal relationship with the Lord and the Holy Ghost will either confirm or
deny the direction others may give. There are some that may want to take the
spirits place and manipulate those that think they must just follow without
confirmation. That is against what Brigham Young and many other Church leaders
have said. When the scriptures talk about 'unrighteous dominion' it points out
'most' in a position to do so will be guilty of that. That is a red flag for us
all to be in touch with the Spirit for guidance. When we can accomplish this we
will understand the wisdom and inspiration (and times revelation) in our
leader's messages and how they pertain to us personally.
I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the responses to this article. As a male in
the LDS church, I was offended at Sister Beck's talk. Women should choose the
life they wish to live and not be relegated to a life of some "ideal." Just as
the woman in this article with the 5 kids should be allowed to have her children
and be happy with her life, another woman should be fulfilled with a life of
work and education if that is her prerogative.
The Deseret News should be ashamed to publish an article that so poorly
represents the events it reports. This piece misquotes panelists, misspells the
name of at least one, and selectively emphasizes a few minor details (such as
one comment by one audience member) over some major details (such as the fact
that most of the panelists are themselves dedicated mothers). That's really
unfortunate--it would be far more interesting for the online discussion to be
about what the panelists actually had to say rather than about reductive cliches
To you 500 women: The wicked taketh the truth to be hard. I suggest you
re-read the talk again, and instead of just reading the "Headings" you read all
the sentences inbetween. If you are going to bash Sis. Beck for saying what she
did, then you obviously have an issue with our prophets who have said the same
thing time and again. It is obvious this talk was needed. Women who know, spend
their time wisely instead of trying to tear down leaders of the church and
trying to rationalize and justify their current situation.
There are two main reasons we are uncomfortable with someone's words. One is
that the words are simply not true. The other reason is that the words are
true, but inconsistent with either our current beliefs or practices. Either
Sister Beck's words are inspired or they are not. To LDS women, the answer is
crucial and may likely effect their eternity. I don't care if 500 or 5,000,000
people disagree with Sister Beck. I only care what God thinks about these
issues. I believe it behooves each one of us to ask God. I asked and got an
Do these words mean anything to you?Judgemental, arrogant,
self-centered?I think these are all "sins", and therfore someone
with these traits might also be considered wicked.Just something to
think about.re: Glenn Foley | 2:58 p.m.I would suppose
that when you suggest that "Sisters, know your place.", most of them know
exactly where they are at.I would guess that "you know" where their
place "should" be, but it is not up to you, or me, or Sister Beck to tell anyone
where their place is.Isn't it the gospel plan for all of us to
figure that out for ourselves?I appreciate Sister Beck's "advice and
counsel", but other than being just that (has her talk been made a doctrinal
cannon yet?) I think the rest of us should listen, she how and if it afects us,
and look to the Lord for guidance, follow his promptings, and get out noses out
of others lives -- that also means the Sunstone Group.
You say you have a happy life with great kids. I'm happy for you.However, in your own admission, you "blew off" Elder Packer's talk and did the
same thing to Sis. Beck's talk.You won't have your picture perfect
life for long."What?!", you shriek, "how dare you! you narrow
minded, judgemental pinhead!"Yes, I'll warn you again: you won't
live in Eden for long. Christ said no man can serve two masters and you just
chose yours by "blowing off" the counsel of a prophet, seer and revelator that
as a Latter-day Saint you're supposed to sustain. Don't get ticked at me, get
ticked at Christ and see how well that works..."And wo be unto him
that will not hearken unto the words of Jesus, and ALSO TO THEM WHOM HE HATH
CHOSEN AND SENT AMONG THEM; for whoso receiveth not the words of Jesus AND THE
WORDS OF THOSE WHOME HE HATH SENT RECEIVETH NOT HIM; and therefore he will NOT
receive them at the last day; And it would be better for them if they had not
been born." - 3rd Nephi 28:34-35The choice is yours, but God's
caravan detours for no one. "
I understood exactly what you were trying to say, there was no need for
clarification for many of us. We all, every single person alive on this earth,
need to know our place in our Heavenly Father's plan. That's the only possible
way we can return to live with Him, and that's the only possible way we can be
really, truly happy for longer than a short season. I found your words to be
comforting and supportive. Please don't feel as though you need to apologize for
The fathers get a pass.Mothers who know, "their sons wear white
shirts and ties and have missionary haircuts."All of you "mother's
who know" are being found lacking.I will be at church next week,
checking shirts for ironing and crispness. I will also be checking for grooming
on all young men.White shirts, wash and wear; not easily wrinkled;
business-like style Suit(s), traditional style and cut,
conservative, dark colors; no sport coats. No baggy or pegged pants. Extreme or
faddish styles are inappropriate. A suit coat is required while at the MTC and
while traveling to and from the mission field; the extent to which you wear a
suit coat in the field will be determined by your mission president. Belts, black or dark brown, with conservative buckles.Ties,
conservative in color, width and design. No pictures or bright colors, no
western string ties or extremely narrow ties. Black or bwon shoes
with matching socks.No hair over the ears, and watch that facial
hair. I think the LDS women have more to fear from sister Beck
than the non LDS.I will be judging you.
"Mothers who know desire to bear children."Those who don't have
kids, well, they are not mothers, which makes sense, I guess.
Please know that "Obvious", who posted on 10 Aug at 7:44, does NOT represent the
attitudes of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the
vast, vast majority of it's members or the Savior we love and worship.
No shriek from me. Do you often shriek? I would have to care what you think, and
I don't. You, I don't care what you say.Boyd Packer is a friend of
the family, but still, his talk in Priesthood was creepy for one so young as I
was, and the factory was not producing yet, and made my skin crawl. I don't
like my skin to crawl during priesthood meeting.Sister Beck is not
the prophet, and her talk was the same as anyone else's talk in church. If I
spoke in your ward, you might blow me off to.I love my slice of
Eden, Christ, my wife, my family, BYU Football, the Temple and the gospel. The
church is weird, but the gospel is true.Sis Beck's talk did not
pertain to me, I have daughters, so I don't need to dress my sons up as "Ken
Doll Missionaries".I am not either ticked at you or Christ, I love
Christ. You, I do not know, but you sound a little nutty.So thanks
there, Samuel the Lamanite, but I'm working on my backyard, and you should work
on yours.Sounds like you have a caravan stop.
To The Non-LDS | 8:17 p.m.Can I just add that anyone posting does
NOT represent the attitudes of the leaders of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints, the vast, vast majority of it's members or the Savior we love
"Social science affirms that a woman's place in society marks the level of
civilization." Elizabeth Cady StantonI hear Utah is
getting one of those fancy electric lights soon.
Sister Beck is telling Mothers what David O. McKay told Fathers - that no
success can compensate for failure in the home.Fathers work hard to
support and nurture their families. Mothers work hard to support and
nurture their families.This process is what helps us develop as
human beings with understanding, empathy, service, and love. The products of
this environment of hard work and sacrifice are better prepared for their own
journey of becoming.Feminists, please understand, this is no
end-around, but a direct attack on your idealogy. We accept that you will not
understand that the hard working, selfless, engaged mothers who sacrifice and
raise children are doing so out of choice, not by blindly following a
patriarchal "order". Hard? Challenging? Difficult? Exhausting? All of the
above, and worth it.It is our belief that our children's success,
and even our societies success, depends on a mother and father, working
together, to raise children properly. Yup, sacrifice is involved.It
seems that the feminists think that Sister Beck did not see the "firestorm"
coming. Unlikely. We do agree, that Mothers blindly following "patriarchal
orders" should rethink why they are doing what they are doing.
By perpetuating the either/or myth about women -- they can be successful in
their careers or good homemakers -- you miss an opportunity to address the real
fact that many women are both. A missed opportunity.
I had a friend once who told me "you know it's too bad--you and I never get to
have the best calling. We never get it." He was referring to motherhood and a
little tongue in cheek, but also serious.Something to think about.-R
Those who are very offended by Sister Beck's talk might want to re read the
recent conference talk given recently by - was it Bednar? - where he talked
about how " people CHOOSE to be offended". It was a great talk and would help a
lot of you. Those of you who are running around going crazy about this talk
might want to consider reading the Proclamation on the Family again. If you
don't like the content, take it up with the prophet!!!
What does "cowboy up" mean?
Call me crazy, but I think this was a very poorly written article! I wish they
would have put a link to Sister Becks talk. Then we could really think it
through by ourselves. And quoting so many different random people... If
the talk by Sister Beck is the one that I think it was, it was very well done!
As women, we all have our place in this world. We all have different stories.
Different journeys. Sister Beck has simply been called to try to shed some
light on how to find our way through the choices that we have to make as women.
Once we find our path, whatever that is, motherhood or not, just enjoy it and
don't try to be one to pull others to your life's journey simply because you
think it's the best. It is your journey! Let others find theirs and be happy for
them when they do. That is true sisterhood.
There is no doubt that Church leaders, both women and men, infuse a great deal
of their own, personal perspectives and viewpoints into what they teach as
Church "doctrine."Sister Beck infused a bit more than a little of
her own narrow views into her talk, and did so with an indelicacy that is
somewhat shocking, even for those of us who are faithful Latter-day Saints.If the Prophet and First Presidency were committed to the kind of narrow
view of women's roles that Sister Beck described, they would never have approved
the calling of Sheri Dew as a counselor to Mary Ellen W. Smoot in the R.S.
General Presidency from 1997 to 2002, the first non-married woman called to this
position in Church History!
Why does Sunstone have a problem with this?If your kids don't come
out squeaky clean, it's your fault.Dad's OK, he has a job.Why would one woman do this to all the other women? Give them a difficult
standard, and set them up to fail?(I'd quote a scripture here, but
the best ones have been taken).
"Cowboy up" means you get on your hourse and ride.No excuses, no
whining, just doing it.
Are people who say others are judgemental,judging them as judgemental? How silly
to say someone is judgemental. Everyone is judgemental! Including those on here
who say others who disagree with them are judging those whom they condemn.
Wow, so many comments are so far off the mark. I was raised in Alpine and know
members of Julie Bangerter Beck's family personally. Sis. Beck does not speak
from some provincial uninformed position. When she was a girl, her father (Wm.
Grant Bangerter) served as a mission president in Brazil, with the family living
there. The members of her family are among the best, down-to-earth people I
know. If her message upsets you, I would look inward and ask yourself why.
I cowboy'd up by finally finding the edification I was longing for in my quest
for a closer relationship with my Father in Heaven. Each day there is much
reason to rejoice as I leave the caravan and look for the one to assist and
nurture in their own struggle. After long years of heartache and disillusion in
faithful obedience, I found peace by following my heart and acting with
integrity to the moral purposes of living my best life and supporting others in
doing the same. This took me right out the doors of the LDS church. As I read
some of these comments stating 500 people don't matter, that the church caravan
detours for no one, I can see why. What has happened to compassion for the
individual? Seems it may have just become too much for this organization to
deal with people one on one, or perhaps the members have become too busy to
enjoy the neighborly behavior that builds trust and helps identify those that
could use some support.
"Women Leaders" - are you aware that Sister Beck was partly raised in South
America? Her mother was the first mission president's wife, and she organized
the first Relief Society ever in South America. Perhaps you ought to get to know
her a bit more before saying, "As I listen to them it is apparent that so many
of them have never lived overseas or have been exposed to any other culture".
She likely knows more than you.
"They do not abandon their plan by succumbing to social pressure and worldly
models of parenting" Here is a quote from Sister Beck's talk. It descibes this
opposition to a tee. Read the talk on lds.org and then read this article and
decide for yourself.
"Effective parenting is a learned behavior, and, as parents, we learn and grow
with each child. Children come with their own gifts, challenges, and freedom of
choice. (We reject teachings that encourage women to shoulder ultimate
responsibility for every aspect of child-rearing and family life), and to take
on shame and guilt when things do not go according to plan." Here is a quote
from the opposition website. Sounds like they don't want to take responsibility
for their own children. You decide!
Fatherhood is as good as motherhood any day. I agree with COWBOY UP! Get on your
saddles and get to riding. Life is too short to be whiner.
Number 21:4-9 - Look and Live. Beck speaks the truth, doesn't suit some - so
they have their reward of their own heart anyway. What's the big deal ?
"and in our belief that the life story we are ultimately responsible for is our
own." This is the last line on the whatwomenknow website. Sounds kinda selfish
doesn't it. Sounds kinda like they aren't responsible for their children. Every
kid isn't going to turn out perfect. I didn't, and my parents tried pretty hard.
What a crock. Read both the talk and this website. Then you decide.
Some things to consider. Utah leads the nation in the proscribing of
anti-depressant medication. Utah has led or is very high in the rates of
bankruptcies. There are some serious problems in our communities and I think it
ties back to what we believe. In today's world, especially recently, it is
simply not possible to have one wage earner in a family. I say this and for
many years my wife was a stay at home mother. In today's economy with inflation
many times higher than officially stated, and with wage growth stagnant, it is
not possible for many people to pay 10% of their (gross) income to an
organization. Many people, like myself, pay tithing, but any objective look at
what it is doing shows that we can not save adequately for retirement by doing
this and we can not save for our children's education by doing this. The church
needs to adjust tithing so that the sacrifice does not drive people away out of
a fear of not being able to do it. It needs to adjust what it expects out of
its members. Unmet expectations causes many good people to get depressed.
It is possible to have one wage earner. I am a father of 6 and a sole wage
earner. You just can't keep up with the neighbors.
Thanks! I appreciate this article and the comments (inane or otherwise) because
it made me go back and reread Sis. Beck's talk with new eyes, and I think I got
even more out of it than the first time around. Mothers who know (like me) got
the uplift, the rest of you got offended. "And the eyes of them that
see shall not be dim, and the ears of them that hear shall hearken."
Consider this: Start by living within your means. Sell your ATVs and your
boat. If you can't make your mortgage payment then don't send your wife to
work, rather, look at getting into a home that you could afford in the first
place. Just because the Jones family next door has those things doesn't mean
you can even afford to live in the neighborhood.Education is great,
but if your kids want it, make them pay for it themselves. Your responsibility
is to educate them enough to where they want an education and pursue it on their
own, not to pay for it for them.Don't blame any of your or anyone
else's financial difficulties on the Church because it's not the Church's fault.
I'm a father of three and sole bread-winner in my family and we make it just
fine. The trick is to know your limits. Our children will benefit more by
having their mother at home than by having a bigger house, nicer cars, and being
spoiled with everything they want.
I was pleasantly surprised when I moved out of Utah, to find a RS that wasn't
filled with women who were freaking out over whether or not they ironed their
5year olds t=shirts. So much of the guilt Mormon women feel is self inflicted.
It is not coming from our leaders. I love Pres. Hinckley's wise counsel of
"just do your best." I've had friends who've moved to Utah and say they feel
the pressure to be perfect. When my ward suggested doing a "steps to perfection"
program, I told them I would not participate and why. I was supposed to set
goals and when I achieved them, my husband or VT had to sign off that I'd
accomplished it. How offensive, I'm an adult and I know and God knows if I've
accomplished my goal. I've been out of Utah for 20 years now and have never
once had a RS have this type of goals program. I'm grateful. Your Eternal
welfare does not depend on how many quarts of peaches you bottle or how many
quilts you make. Love, serve and be happy. It's all so simple.
I love the idea that we all "choose" to be selfish and work for our own desires.
Funny, I desire my daughter to eat, so I work. Wow, what selfishness I
possess. Other ladies in my neighborhood trade babysitting days so they can go
to the gym, scrapbook, or just have some quiet time. Which, I am sure, is much
better than the fact that I so selfishly go to work so my child can have a roof
over her head. I have never owned a scrapbook because the materials seem like
a luxury, but my selfishness in wanting to clothe my child is apparent. The
reason some of us "evil" women felt hurt by the talk is simply that we already
struggle to find a place in the church. I have a testimony, but it does not
mean I am immune to hurt. I just have to choose to rise above it. I really
wish that condemnation would really be reserved to those without sin, and the
rest of us would just love one another.
Sister Beck wasn't speaking to working mothers, she was speaking to stay at home
mothers. Everybody knows that sometimes, it's just not possible to stay home
with your kids. Nobody's faulting you for that. What these comments
are referring to are those families that can afford to have a parent without
employment, but because of selfish reasons, that parent goes out and gets a job
anyway, regardless of whether his or her children need him/her around at home
more than they need to be earning a paycheck. Sister Beck's talks
have highlighted the idea that being a mother is the most important job a woman
can have. Some women feel that their career is the most important job they can
have, and when they hear what the LDS church teaches, they become offended.
Nobody is speaking about the women who, due to financial concerns, HAVE to work
in order to provide for the needs of their families.
I loved Sis Beck's Talk. Am I the woman in her talk? Absolutely not...but I
can try to be. For me, the talk simply illustrated how to be better, I'm not
offended by that or overwhelmed by it - I'm grateful for it. As a 27 year old
mother of 1 and 1 on the way, I have no clue what I'm doing, nothing prepared me
for this. I want to be the best for my children and do what's best for them.
And I believe that between God and myself, we can decided what is best for me
and my family, and I think that is true for us all.
I think much of what is causing so much controversy is difference in
perspectives and circumstances. The last comment that was addressed to Maren
was right on. Everyone's situations are different and thus result in different
ways of raising a family. Everyone has to do what works for them and their
families. The Spirit will confirm our decision as correct if it is in line with
the Lord's will for us.Sister Beck was addressing where our hearts
and desires should be. There are many women out their who must work to keep
their families up and running, that have a great desire to be with their
children as much and has fully as they can. I think that that is all she is
talking about. Just be your very best!I have the wonderful blessing
of being able to stay home to raise my children. Financially this is possible
for us. We live quite frugally but very happily. I am just happy to know that
I get to raise my children rather than someone else who may not be striving to
be the best mother - a mother who knows and holds a testimony of the truth.
When people say you are judgemental, they can be observing a behvior of making
personal judgements of "someone elses morals", something I think the Bible
talked about, "Judge not lest ye be judged".When someone tells you
that you feel guilty, are wicked, that the caravan to heaven is going to leave
without you (insinuating you're not going to make it to heaven but they
are... I think that is wrong, and really one of the things my fellow
LDS do that get's sort of old.
I feel like many others on that have commented that what Sis Beck talked about
in her talk was a very important thing for us as women and mothers to hear. When
I heard her talk it gave me hope and encouragement that what I am doing as a
mother has eternal influence and power in this world. I feel bad for those women
who got offended from her talk. You have to ask yourself really deep down why
you are feeling that way? Maybe you will be surprised the answer, maybe not. I
feel that all this talk against what Sis Beck said about the importance of our
roles as mothers will lead to what the Family Proclamation to the world says
"Further, we warn that the disintegration of the family will bring upon
individuals, communities, and nations the calamities foretold by ancient and
modern prophets." I believe that as mothers we are the glue that will hold our
families together. It is important that we have the correct understanding of
what our roles are in our family. Not everyone will be the same because we all
live in different circumstances. SO PRAY TO KNOW YOUR ROLE!
Maren, Sister Beck was speaking as President of the Relief Society, the church's
organization, so she was speaking directly to you,Saying that she
wasn't is like saying the church leaders were not speaking to me about drinking,
smoking and playing poker.The church is about you becoming perfect
here on earth, therefore setting us on a road where we can never achieve
success.The Gosple of Jesus Christ is about intelligence, thining
and understanding gosple principles, families, and eternal salvation. I live the gosple, but find thing that are said in church are sometimes
weird.Just remember that in heaven, there will be no need for a
"church", kids in white shirts and ties, and mormons to walk around and inspect
your homes. Just do the best raising your kids. The church is there as a tool to
help you, but if you're doing some plumbing, and don't need a hammer, don't pull
it out of the tool box.
My wife and I have raised three children. The oldest son has a degree from Utah
State, served a mission for the church and was married in the temple. The
second, a daughter, has a degree from the University of Utah, teaches first
grade, plays piano in Primary and hopes to be married in the temple and will be
a wonderful mother. The third child is currently serving a mission in South
America. My wife is a full time mother, a wonderful wife, and a part time
nurse. On top of her many accomplishments she would say that being a mother of
these three wonderful and beautiful children is her greatest accomplishment.
Together, my wife and I have changed many diapers, washed many dishes, vacuumed
many floors, cleaned many little messes, relished every primary talk, smiled
during every hour of piano practice, and stood with pride at high school and
college graduations. No, our lives aren't perfect. We look for talks like
Sister Beck's to help us become better. I love my wife and I am proud of her as
the mother of our children. My greatest accomplishment is to be a husband and
I have no wish to offend, but I was reading a few of these comments and have to
repond. I don't have time to read all of them because I'm at work. I'm amazed
at the controversy these words caused. I went back and read the whole talk, and
believe it was a great talk!As for the person who wrote "Women
leaders...make me cringe" I must have misunderstood you. Are you saying that
they shouldn't use life experiences in this global church due to cultural
differences. By that token you won't learn anything today from any of the Old
Testament Women and their stories. Or any of our scriptures for that matter in
our NEW, Refined, and High Tech world. IF WE ARE listening with the spirit(D&C
50:17-23 / Nep 8:12)If we aren't listening with the spirit confusion can
occur. I've had to go back and read a few myself because of distraction or
unpreparedness to listen and hear. When we are searching for God in these
words, have the spirit, and look for comfort we will find IT. Knock, Ask, and
Search. I feel bad for those not listening in this case, because it was
Where are all these people who work for "selfish" reasons, and how do you know?
Have you talked to every single one of them? Because I do talk to all the
mothers I work with, and I do know that they all have their own reasons for
working, none of them selfish. It is amazing to me that those who have the
priviledge and blessing of having enough to live on look down on those who may
not. My husbands family literally often do not know where their next meal will
come from. So many people have financial worries. I do not think we should
judge. I think women who stay at home are great. I think women who work are
great. I think it is bad of anyone to say that someone is selfish because of
their choices. No one knows but God. It is no wonder some of us feel left out
in Relief Society. People who do not know my circumstances call me selfish. I
have learned that no one knows anothers heart. All we should do is love one
another and leave it up to God.
If the liberal thinking Sunstone group would get a clue and accept the amazing
role that women/mothers play in the course of the world then they would not have
any trouble with Sister Beck's talk. Pride will be the downfall of society as
it is those who assume that motherhood is a limiting and demeaning philosophy.
"Firestorm?" 340 blogs? Why?The only question is, did God ordain men
and women as partners in the creation of the human family, with their distinct
and complementary roles?It was been hard work in our family, and
worth every day of it. If you believe differently, then try out your plan.Some folks seem plenty able to leave the Church and its teachings. But
they just can't leave it alone.
The LDS church does not respect women. We all know it, anyone who studies the
Church knows it.
Well, I'm sick and tired of only being good for providing for my family and
getting my wife pregnant. I feel like a old tired work horse. Get up, goto work,
come home, feel guilty for not spending enough time with kids and not doing
enough around the house, and on and on and on... Get over it people.
So you don't agree with something that was said in General Conference. Big deal,
it doesn't make it any less true because so many people are mad about it. Both
genders have a divine destiny and like it or not that is the way it is. The church teaches pure principles and the highest ideals that we should
all be striving to become. What are the suppose to preach? How crappy it feels
somedays to get up and and fulfill our responsiblities. Reality is that life
sucks some days but we get up and try again to do better the next. I
however, appreciate leaders that preach the ideal and encourage me to be a litte
bit better each day.ps. Me: employed outside home, Wife: homemaker.
Works for us...
Utah is a great place, like everywhere else we have our share of looney's. It
sounds like you know that 1st hand from the experience you had. I agree that was
a weird and inappropriate activity. It could have been a looney's idea or just a
misguided well meaning sister. Don't charactize all of Utah this way, because I
promise you don't know what it is like eerywhere in Utah.
If you think women's roles are adequately acknowledged by the patriachial
leadership, notice the Ensign & Church News bios for mission presidents, temple
presidents, & other Church leaders. The man's professional accomplishments are
always listed, the women's rarely are. And yet, the women partner with their
husband in fulfilling these callings. What are they trying to hide? Where
would healthcare & education be without women?
I work with alot of women, and I can tell you that some of them are working for
selfish reasons. One women I know has the biggest house in the entire
neighborhood, she had a great house that fit her family. Her husband has a good
job. It was all about having the new house. That all she talked about. That is
why she is working. I feel sorry for her kids going to daycare all day.
Big whoop. After a long and successful career I married and was able to give
birth to two terrific children. I chose to stay home and raise my best friends
rather continue my profession. There are times I miss things about the
professional world. Although I've kept up with my field of study and continue to
take on-going classes so I can perhaps one day re-enter my profession, I have
learned for myself that there is nothing more grand and all encompassing than
motherhood. Sister Beck knows what she's talking about--as do all our general
authorities. I know this because I have a testimony that these people are
guided by Jesus Christ Himself. What we need is not more intelligence, but more
faith--the kind that follows real soul searching. Motherhood is/was
hard--hardest thing I've ever done. Now that they're in their later teens, I
look back at my wonderful family with one major regret--that I was not blessed
(unable) to have more children. I pray I'll live worthy so I may have that
exquisite blessing throughout eternity. True motherhood is the most
soul-expanding venture I've ever been through.
I make $12.80/hr. I go to school. My wife stays at home with our son. We get
by (with no assistance from govt, church, family, school, etc). It can work,
but we don't have a nice TV or any fancy new game consols or a new car.
Right on brother!
Sister Becks talk said NOTHING about staying home. It talked about stepping up
and doing our responsibility as women . Whether you do this while working or
staying home is up to you and the Lord. There is nothing wrong with being
reminded of the sacredness of the home and raising children. That
conference inspired me to get back in school and finish my degree. It encouraged
me to develop my talents and work harder as a mother. What's so bada bout that?
Sister Beck is not focused on the resume she will leave behind or her ego or her
power to control others in the world? She doesn't even have a hyphenated name.
Wow what a fool she is. All she will have in the after life is the reward she
gets for being a selfless servant of her fellow beings and her maker. All she
will have is the love she built between her, her family and others. What a pity.
Maybe if you really looked at what Sister Beck said, this wouldn't be such a
discussion. She said nothing about women having to have children -
she said "mothers who know DESIRE to bear children". She speaks of ironed
clothes and brushed hair as an example - people she has actually seen - of how
mothers can influence their children to "desired eternal goals". She doesn't
speak of having an immaculate home, but making a home that has a climate for
SPIRITUAL GROWTH. It's hard to have scripture study if you can't find a place
to sit down! Go through the talk people. You can find offense
anywhere you look hard enough, but I just find a woman showing me the ideal.
When she says "Latter-day Saint women should be the very best in the world at
upholding, nurturing, and protecting families" I believe that - as a group. If
you truly believe the LDS faith is the Lord's church, than as a group we should
be able to do his work the best, and that includes raising families.
Validity draws the fire.
What's a hourse?
Maybe Ms. Toscano would rather live in a patriarchy such as Africa, any Muslim
country, India or China, where women provide for the family and bear the
children, raising them primarily on their own and the men take all of the money.
I don't think that is what you are seeing in the Mormon culture. Sister Beck
was speaking to Mothers. If a woman isn't a mother, than maybe she wasn't
speaking to those that aren't raising children. Sister Beck has stated that she
didn't write the talk, but that it was given her of God. What is God's opinion
about who you are and what you should be?
Wheat and the tares...You cannot petition and protest truth away. Great leaders
are unapologetic about truth, and care more speaking it than being popular.
Sister Beck is in pretty good company: Abinadi, Samuel the Lamanite, Joseph
Its amazing to me how much discussion is taking place on a talk that was given
in 2007! Both sides of the debate need to get a life and stop arguing about
something that is a pointless argument to begin with. Only in Mormon
Land can a discussion take place over what is right and what is wrong when it
comes to parenting. I don't support 100% of what Sister Beck said but I don't
condemn it. Sure it made it through the "Powers that be" and it was presented
with approval. However, we all make the choice whether to cry about it or
personally accept it. My wife and I can't have kids and have more
right to be offended over this talk than most...Are we still thinking about a
talk given in General Conference months ago?NOPE! We have more
important things to do.One last thing. Just because it comes from
"The Church," it doesn't necessarily mean its doctrine. There have been many
things that have been said and done that weren't inspired.
I'm an educated woman with letters after my name. Big woop. Sister Beck's talk
was inspired, uplifting, and full of wisdom. It may be time for many of her
critics to thoughtfully consider the role of their own egos. I had children
late in my marriage, especially for Utah. I'm now a full-time mother and health
challenges preclude me from having as many children as I would like. I am, in
the words of Siddharta Gautama, "working out my own salvation," and not everyone
else's, through the miracle of Christ's Atonement. Sunstone and Beck's critics
would do well to remember that "men go crazy in congregations, they only get
better one by one."
Ha! I just read your post and it sounds exactly like mine (see mine: "Consider
the Ego"). We should get together. It sounds like you're a few years ahead of
me; I'd love to get some advice sometime.
Why go to Margaret Toscano for commentary. She is an ex-communicated member that
talks freely of her disagreements with church leaders and policies. What kind of
comments do you expect to get from her?
In the immortal words of Don Henley - "Get over it!"
To Consider the Ego,I would bet a small fortune that I have more
letters behind my name than you do. If that is a "big whoop" for you, then it
did not need to be said at all, right?!I confess, your point is
somewhat important, if people would really abide by it. I feel the same way.
Where you and I differ is that I found nothing Sister Beck said to give my any
help in working out my own salvation. Her talk was completely and entirely
worthless in helping me with that.My response to her talk was (and
still is): Big Whoop! It was a waste of time to listen to it.
From Sister Beck's talk:"Mothers who know desire to bear children.
Whereas in many cultures in the world children are becoming less valued,2 in the
culture of the gospel we still believe in having children. Prophets, seers, and
revelators who were sustained at this conference have declared that Gods
commandment for His children to multiply and replenish the earth remains in
force.3Some women are not given the responsibility of bearing
children in mortality, but . . . the value women place on motherhood in this
life and the attributes of motherhood they attain here will rise with them in
the Resurrection (see D&C 130:18)."Many people have mentioned that
this talk was not directed at everyone (single, childless, men, etc), but I
disagree. Clearly Sister Beck was teaching the PRINCIPLE of motherhood - not
merely the act of it. Principles need to be learned and understood by all. An
early commandment given to humanity was to be fruitful and multiply, and Sister
Beck was reminding us of the universality and eternal nature of that
commandment. Her talk included examples of the types of acts that might help us
develop the attributes of motherhood.
re:LW"Clearly Sister Beck was teaching the PRINCIPLE of
motherhood".Soooooo...The principle of motherhood can be
taught in 10 minutes?It's cut and dry, either you are the perfect
mom (Stay at Home), or you are not (you work because you are selfish).Mothering to do with controlling your six kids while you stay at home. Keep
them out of the neighbors garden, don't let them out with a can of spray paint.
These "Mothers Who Know" do nothing to control them in church. They climb, they
eat, they color. I'm always missing the talks in church, picking up toys for the
stay at home's kids, cleaning up their snacks, and trying to keep their
"goldfish" yellow hands off my suit while SAHM ignores her brood, and my
children pay attention in church.Sister Beck really missed the
mark.Just staying home, pumping out kids, and having family night
doesn't cut it. Get work-horse father involved.He's too tired?I know many mothers who work whose chilren are well behaved, respectful,
and spiritual.To just say SAHM = good, Working mother = bad is an
ignorant topic.The only thing that offends me about the talk is the
Whine about it!!!
I can't believe what I'm reading in some of these comments. We are not
mindless, we are not slaves, we make choices based on the spirit, and we are not
expected to be perfect mothers, but to strive to do our best. The
family is what the gospel is about, Satan knows this, and he's destroying it,
and those of you offended by Beck's talk are supporting him in that effort. To those who are offended with Sis. Beck's talk need to get on their
knees and ask Heavenly Father if it is true, much like most of us did with the
Book of Mormon. And then go from there. You are not defending the rights of all
the women in the church by publicly criticizing Sister Beck, this is a matter to
be dealt with between you and your Father in Heaven. I sincerely
hope, this is the last article I ever see on this topic.
On one side, we have the Gospel to give us guidelines...On the
other side, we have society to contradict the guidelines...I wonder
which side to pick?
What makes you so sure you have the most letters? I find that rather
presumptive. The most important letters I've earned are M-A-M-A =)! Respectfully, Consider the Ego
Hey I think most of those commented in the article are totally off the mark. But
I do applaud the lady who stood up to defend her role of a mother and to tell
the dude off afterwards who told her she was a slave. Motherhood is not a
disgusting role. And it appears to me that this Toscano sounds like another
Rocky Anderson. And anyone who follows someone like that is nuts. And I think
that these so called "mothers" who have signed a petition against the talk of
Sis. Beck just plain were not hearing what she was saying, and just came to
their own ding-dong conclusion about what she really said. Try reading it again
before you get your shorts all knotted up. And all you just need to take a chill
I'm sorry, can someone please help me out. What does SAHM mean?I'll
try to guess. You correct me if I'm wrong:SAHM = Sheep Ambling as
Homebound MothersSAHM = Self-righteous, Arrogant Home MakersSAHM = Simpletons Aspiring to be Help MatesSAHM = Staying
Away from Higher MentationSAHM = Superiority Attitude about Home
Making... let me know if I'm getting close...
Re: SAHMYOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.
"Wisdom is the principle thing, therefore, get wisdom, and with all thy getting,
get understanding". (Proverbs)Self mastery brings lasting happiness.
Thankfully when we stumble and fall short of expectations (self imposed or
otherwise) we have the blessing of the Atonement to make us whole.Don't shoot the messenger for preaching the principle...
That is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard, and I'm a woman who has spent
nearly 30 years in the church. President Hinckley was giving an
interview a few years ago, and one of the questions asked was how the church
treats its women. His reply is one of my favorite quotes, though I'm
paraphrasing at the moment."How do we treat women in the church? We
get out of their way! And then we stand back and marvel at all the things they
are able to accomplish."
re: reply at 1:16. I grew up in Utah and lived there 33 years. I know there are
many good people in Utah, but was responding to the poster who commented about
the high need for antidepressants in Utah. I remember in 1979 Sister Barbara
Smith, the General RS president at that time, gave a talk on KSL about Mormon
Women and Depression. I believe she said in part it was from women expecting
too much of themselves. I saw this all the time in Utah. The "steps to
perfection" wasn't unique to my ward. It was even suggested at a RS presidency
mtg here in CA by someone who heard about it from her sister in Utah. It was
instantly rejected. We compare ourselves at our worst against others at their
best and of course we fall short. Programs like this aren't helpful, they just
create more pressure. Women need to stop comparing and then trying to be better
than their neighbors. It's divisive and unhealthy. I loved Sis Beck's talk
because I can compete against myself to improve my life. Love, serve, do your
best and be happy.
I loved Sis. Beck's talk and would add the following: Mothers who know
watch their small children and don't let them wander the neighborhood unattended
for hours on end. Mothers who know, know it is their responsibility to
supervise their kids, not the rest of the neighborhood. Mothers
who know, know their limits. They don't expect to get a free pass simply
because they're overwhelmed. Their 8th child deserves the same attention and
care as their first and shouldn't be left to their own devices simply because
Mommy is going through menopause with a toddler on her hip.
Mothers who know don't take the easy way out just because it's easier. They'll
stick to a principle even if a child whines for two hours instead of giving in
because the kids knows next time she'll cave eventually.
Mothers who know are willing to take their turn in Primary callings. Most of us
would rather be in RS than dealing with her bratty undisciplined kids and she
needs to do her fair share. Being with your kids all day is not a valid excuse.
So were the rest of us and we take our turn.
To SAHM: YOU ARE SO RIGHT!
I loved Sister Beck's talk. To me there is nothing better in the world than the
joy of being a mother. I have six children, now all grown. I loved every
minute of motherhood, and would go back and gladly do it all over again! Thank
you Sister Beck for your inspired words.
Dear: in addition... | 10:05 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008unmet expectations |
9:59 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008 SAHM | 9:16 p.m. Aug. 11, 2008 This
discussion is finally getting sensible. Now all of the Molly's and Anti's have
had their say, isn't Motherhood about being the best mother you can to those
precious little heavenly gifts, whether you choose to stay at home, or work?
It's not either/or.I know some sisters who marry money, or demand
their husbands put in extra hours so they can stay at home, then hire maids and
nannys, and get playdates to dump their kids off, and sit in the pew like a
queen bee because they stay at home, and look down their noses at the less
fortunate. Just like a closet alcoholic, they are one thing for show, but not
really there for their kids.Other moms take on small jobs, or even
work full time, but do it to take the responsibility off the father so that he
can be part of the family unit.Others do it to shelter, feed and
clothe their kids.I applaud the Mothers Who Knew, well before the
talk was given...(Slow clap... Applause)
Boy, that sure helped the discussion along. Do you feel better now that you had
a chance to make someone feel less than you?I read it and saw it
also, but I knew it was a horse.I'm guessing you're a person who
lives to point out everyone's imperfections, because you have low self esteem,
and pointing out errors makes you feel superior to all of the rest of the
world.It's ok.You can relax, this is a posting board,
none of us know who you are. None of us care what you are, only you should
care.Isn't that what this whole thing is about? Everyone thinks they
have to be perfect, and if you can make someone less than you, that makes you
better?Life is not a "zero-sum gain". We can all win.Every mother who cares about her children, who bandages their cuts, who has a
soft word when they need it, who puts her children before herself, working or
not, is a valiant soilder in God's army, and he cares, and knows who you are.You are special and worthy of his love.I'll give you another
chance to let it go.HOURSE.
"Great leaders are unapologetic about truth, and care more speaking it than
being popular."Pure, honest people are great because of who they
are.That's good company also. Gordon B. Hinckley, Spencer Wooley
Kimball, David O. McKay, Gahndi, Jesus, Dr. King, Muhammed Ali, Rosa Parks,
Cesear Chavez, George Washington, John Adams, Mother Teresa, Abraham Lincoln,
Nelson Mandela, Stephen Biko, Joseph Smith Junior, Moses, my mother, my father,
my grandfather, my grandmother, my first grade teacher, my wife, my two sweet
daughters... all pure and honest.Most have no letters behind their
names, some had titles that preceded their names, but they were not great
because of their titles.Nope, they were great because they were pure
and honest. They did not lead their lives worried what others thought. It was
all between themselves and God. No one had to set a standard for them. They set
it themselves.So please, grab the caravan to heaven and enjoy the
ride. I'll just be living here trying to figure out what God has in store for
me, and then doing it. I'll see ya'all in the hereafter, and I just hope that I
am worthy to sit at the feet of God.
To some who have commented on friends and sisters who are beating themselves up
with the stick they are measured by, I would suggest some prioritizing. God, nor
the Church, expects any of us to "run faster than we are able", including
mothers. Do the best you can, do all you can, but you can't do it ALL, and you
shouldn't feel that you have to.I have raised 9 children and helped
raise 4 stepchildren. I LOVE being a mother. My own mother couldn't have
children, so she and dad adopted me and my sister. I know wonderful women who
have not had children, but they "mother" all the children in their Primary
class, or nieces and nephews. Being a mother means doing the best we can do,
with the help of the Lord and loved ones around us, to raise our children to be
decent, honorable people. Sometimes I have been able to stay home, especially
when they were young. Sometimes I've had to work due to financial need. I've
cleaned motel rooms, taking my children with me. They learned how to work
together, and we have good memories of those times. I worked at school, too.
"Pride" comes before being 'offended.' Pride comes before a fall. Beware least
you fall!It seems that many complainants do not have a true
spiritual perspective of God's Great Plan of Happiness; a mother's roll in life;
women's rolls in general; or earthly families, etc. There will be eternal JOY
and felicity for those of us who make it to the Celestial Kingdom. Not to
worry!A single and previously married and divorced mother who is
very happy in the Church.
Re: ello You sharing of Pres. Hinckley's quote was great.Re:
unmet expectations Your comment "We compare ourselves at our worst
against others at their best and of course fall short"was super.Being a male, I do marvel at our women and do try to get out of the way. If
not, my wife tosses me out of the way. And, I'm an ex-boxer.
Camille Aagard, I respect your courage. Thanks for speaking up.
Well, I am just glad that my mom was home with me. She wasn't always, as she
divorced early, but when she remarried she was in the home. I love and respect
all women. This is a personal choice, as with all personal choices, for which we
will individually be held accountable for. The proclamation of the family states
the roles of fathers and mothers as preordained by God the Father, thus we know
our responsibilities. The time in the home is so short, kids will be raised
before you know it, thus the sacrifice is limited to those few years that the
kids are not in school. My wife worked the first two years of our oldest
daughter and it was tough on all three of us, but with our second she has been
home and enjoys "most" days. I respect her for taking on the most challenging
job in the world (mother, wife (hardest part:), home-maker (whatever that is),
and member of this great Gospel and this wonderful nation. Take heart women of
this Church, don't let anger, pride or resentment persuade you to forget
Christ's love, patience and longsuffering. Know that you are loved and
I haven't bothered to read all the comments here. While I do believe women
should be educated and able pursue careers equally with men, I also agree that
women are an integral part of the family. Children need to be reared by a
parent. When they spend all day at the day care, they learn nothing of their
parents or their parents' values. When they come home, they eat dinner, bathe
and go to bed. There is little quality time. We are paying for virtual strangers
to raise our children. On the other hand, I am also part of the many
families who need a second income to cope with the expenses of day-to-day
living. We do not have children yet, but we are trying. Both of us desparately
want for me to stay home and raise our children.I believe the womens
role in the family is divine. One of the most basic and beautiful doctrines in
the church is that of the eternal family. What better way to strengthen the
family than to have a mother who raises her children?
Sister Beck was speaking to LDS women worldwide. In many countries, including
Mexico, the average LDS family is SMALLER than the average Mexican family!! Even
the Wall Street Journal, almost 4 years ago, pointed to the fact that about half
of all Brazilian women of child-bearing age had had tubal ligations (many paid
for by local politicians running for office).Worldwide, plummeting
human fertility rates are at the core of many growing problems. In the U.S., I
assert that the average 1.71 babies born to the average white woman is behind
the need for many more immigrants. And, since our legal limits are so low, hence
the NEED, and not only the "PROBLEM" of "too many 'illegal' immigrants".
While living in Oregon my wife was applying for a job she was not qualified for.
She would be in charge of a group in the judicial department at the court house.
When a group of professionals, many of which where woman, asked her
about her credentials. She simply replied, Im just a mother. The
main interviewer, the chief judge, replied quite frankly, that is the most
important job you will ever have. I find it funny that a liberal
judge, quite unfamiliar with life in Utah, surrounded by carrier women, would
recognize and emphasize such an important truth. He then said, If
more women were like you, there would be less people in front of me. He pushed for her hire and as her boss made sure she placed her children
The number and force of regrets that my wife and I hear from married LDS female
friends and acquaintances is just sad. They cannot share their unhappiness with
their limited say in their church and marriages. I really feel for them.
I appreciated Julie Beck's talk--even though I am a working professional LDS
woman with a JD who has not had the opportunity to be a mother--yet. Someday we will all stand before God to account for our lives: to show we've
done the best with the hand we were dealt. At-home moms deserve all the respect
& kudos they receive. As Oprah says, It's the hardest job on earth and the most
important. It's the world that measures success by degrees.
Give it a break! Don't you fathers on here have jobs, and need to work, to
support your wives and children? BLAH BLAH BLAH!
Dear Don't tell: There is more to you than meets the written word; "they cannot
share their unhappiness with their limited say in their church and marriages"
There is a veiled predjudice in your comments towards the church and
the women of the church. You have a hypothesis which is condescending at a
minumum. It's obvious that you only pay attention to the information that
supports your hypothesis. There is no lack of strong, articulate
women in our church...
You know, it's funny. When I first heard that talk, I felt like it affirmed all
of the things I was trying to do as a mother and reminded me of how important
they all were, even though some (laundry, anyone?) are real drudgery. I didn't
feel at all guilty for working outside of the home. I didn't have any idea
anyone felt that way until my visiting teacher came to see me and mentioned the
controversy. I have a job because my husband is in a line of work
(computer science) where he is occasionally either changing jobs or getting laid
off. I like the feeling of knowing that our family is protected with constant
insurance.I'm trying my hardest to be the best mother I can be.
I've arranged my schedule so that I'm usually home when my kids are home (all of
them are in school). I'm not the perfect housekeeper, but my kids all know how
to clean a kitchen, do their own laundry, vacuum and dust, clean a bathroom, and
clean up after themselves. Please don't be so hard on yourselves,
mothers! Nobody is perfect. Heavenly Father loves all of us for just trying.
Actually, that happens to be my last name (German). Please stop slandering it
with your rediculous acronyms. Bottom line, people should be able to chose...
it's bad if they are forced to stay at home and bad if they chose to stay at
home and people make fun of and criticize them. Lay off eachother children!
I can't believe it is even the church's business whether a woman has children,
stays at home, has a career, etc. Who exactly do you think you are? I'm sure
the moderator will squash this post, but PLEASE. Women are capable of the same
things men are, and have the same right to asperations.I'm a guy,
and I'm not LDS. But if a person (man or woman) loves God and leads a true
life, then why do any of you care whether a woman has children or not? Telling
women to have a lot of children and stay home to raise them is a little too FLDS
for me.... what if she wants to be a pilot or scientist? They
have a right to happiness just like everyone else. Trying to coerce them into
having babies is just wrong. (I know "coerce" is a strong word but religious
pressures can be very strong...)
If God calls a Relief Society President through inpsiration and by devine means,
I'll sustain. No need to be offended by her words
As a college graduate and stay at home Mom of five, I heard the talk and it
INSPIRED me to be BETTER, I was not at all offended!! Being a stay at home Mom
is hard, but worth it!! :)
I have heard on several occasions how offended some people were at President
Beck's address. Each time I've gone back to her talk and read it again,
thinking, "Did I miss something?". I was there when she spoke. I heard her
words. She spoke truth. The naysayers referred to in this article are confused.
I don't think they have read the talk. If they have, they didn't understand it.
It was not offensive, not limiting, not condescending, and not controlling. It
was good leadership. It was not demeaning of women in society. It was addressed
to mothers. Even behavior specialists couldn't argue with what she said because
all that she said would be in the best interest of children and society. Those
who were offended are acting selfishly. They are kicking against the pricks of
the spirit of truth.
I support Sister Beck. Thank God I had a "Mormon Mother" in spite of a father
indifferent to religion and self improvement either in himself or his (many)
children. She saw to it that all eight of us gained our high school diplomas and
learned about college opportunities. My "Mormon Mother" taught us virtue,
self-respect and respect for women and girls as well as shepherding us gently
through homework and adolescent problems. Sunday after Sunday she begged rides
or walked with us three miles to Church while dad stayed home and "read the
funnies." We learned both Mother Goose rhymes and Bible stories at her knees
while she rocked babies, sewed on the old Singer, or baked bread. The only thing
she ever complained about were nose-in-the-air women who were too busy or
self-centered to get involved with children. Thank God for my "Mormon mother."
As a former LDS church leader, I want to say that in my opinion, what Sister
Beck taught is correct church doctrine. If the leading brethren ever give
subsequent talks to clarify what she taught, I'll follow that counsel. But for
now, to avoid the fringes of the road to apostacy, I would counsel every women
and man out their with a conflictive position to re-think their position, repent
and hold to the iron rod of correct doctrine.
I think when there is any kind of instruction given by the church or any
organization, the only people who take offense are the ones who feel guilty.
Church leaders have always encouraged women to get an education and have skills
that can provide for their family if necessary. No one said motherhood was easy
or that we should enjoy every minute of it, but it is the single most important
job of all mankind because we are raising the next generation. What happened to
the Nephites in the Book of Mormon? Their fathers taught them the gospel and
slowly down the line people fell away and had their own opinion about things
instead of taking counsel from their great leaders. Eventually they were all
destroyed. Aren't you people just a little bit nervous about going against the
counsel given by our church leaders? I would be. One more thing, there was a
talk given awhile ago about being offended. If you're offended, that's your
problem. Suck it up, and move on with life.
How true that we compare ourselves at our worst with others at their best. I
remember watching families file into church dressed in their Sunday best and
thinking what kind of problems could they possibly have? Silly me, they probably
had the same crazy Sunday morning I did, trying to find church shoes that hadn't
seen the light of day since last Sunday, dawdling preschoolers or trying to get
a teen up and going. They have insurance hassles, work stresses and kid
craziness too. It just isn't obvious at Church. We need to remember that they
probably don't look so great all the time. If anyone tries to convince you they
are so organized and righteous they handle it all, they're not showing humility.
I really am well organized-most of the time. I'm punctual-most of the time.
I'm not a gourmet cook-most of the time. My kids have clean clothes-most of the
time. I don't quilt-ever. I have low energy-most of the time. I sew my kids
clothes-never. My home is clean-usually, immactulate-rarely. Food storage yes,
home bottled-no. The only perfection I can claim is never failing to write a
weekly letter to sons on missions.
I think the only ones who are offended by this talk live in Utah! Everyone I've
talked to from Indiana to Wyoming and several places in between are completely
unaware of this controversy. It's just another Utah Mormon thing that the rest
of the sisters in the church just don't get. I was a life long Utah Mormon until
3 1/2 years ago when my eyes were opened when I moved to Wyoming. Pull it
together Utah Sisters and realize the church nor the Relief Society revolve
around you. I am a Relief Society President and spoke of this controversy on
Sunday and they all looked at me like I was from another planet! The sisters in
my ward took this talk to heart. I loved the talk and it gave me reasons to
look at my own life and see if there is room for improvement and guess what!
There is! I'm not perfect and if I'm not willing to change and be better in
many aspects of my life in being a better person, wife, mother, daughter &
sister than there is a problem. "Doesn't Matter" I could not agree with you
I think that motherhood and helping others raise children into wonderful people
and leaders is one of the most important roles to have and it isn't looked down
upon.In the end i think eternal perspective is more important to god than a CEO
I agree with those who think Sister Beck's talk was inappropriate at times. I
was even inclined to support the "What Women Know" movement. However, the way
Camille Aagard was treated was horrible. Because of it, the movement has lost a
lot of respect in my eyes.
Sis. Beck should give another talk like that. It was a defining talk that
brought into focus values that have been lost for decades.
Whats wrong with a different opinion other than feminism? Maybe those mothering
values really make a female feel like a woman! As far as I can tell, feminism is
an effort to make women feel like men. It certainly makes a calculated effort to
Maybe we should take the advice given in the scriptures, if you lack wisdom, ask
of God. We are all striving to become like our Heavenly FATHER and Heavenly
MOTHER. If we listen to our church leaders with the spirit, we will understand
how each word applies to us personally rather than to take offense. Use the
words of our spiritual leaders to help us become better people rather than rip
each other down. Instead of making a website about how horrible the talk is,
make a website that helps give ideas and support on how to be better mothers and
Wow, the "What Women Know" movement has really helped to mobilize the Sisters of
this Church. What I am seeing is a large number of Sisters going back, rereading
the talk, and recognizing it as a powerful message of courage and purpose.You just can't buy advertising like that. Thank you "What
Women Know," you've done more to strengthen the resolve of these Sisters and at
the same time provided them with a list of individuals they should be mindful
of. Beware of wolves in sheep's clothing.
Having just read the talk and read the what women know web page. It is clear to
me who knows what. And it is clear that there is a reason that only hundreds of
people have joined with this group compared to millions. Sister Becks talk is in
perfect unison with past talks and teachings, while even a quick review of the
what women know site will expose great uneasiness. what women know distorts the
meaning of Sister Becks talk, the churchs stand on family and even fundamental
teachings in the Book of Mormon. Women who know will have nothing to do with
what women know.
I am a working, accomplished woman in the LDS church, I am a RS President for
nearly 4 years, I work full time and I have 5 children and I've even served in
the legislature. For those 500 women who claim to have risked it all, locked
themselves in their bathrooms sobbing, etc... Get a life and get over your bad
self! Too many people don't need much of an excuse to rebell, back bite and
tear down their leaders (it's called murmuring, an ancient concept and nothing
new). It is a choice to be happy and a choice to be a faithful member of this
church and I'm happy to make them mine.
I think the Sunstone Symposium is causing the controversy, not the address as is
the claim. The address has inspired much good in women. Has any good come from
these symposiums? The symposium argues that by praising motherhood, we are
somehow saying that women who aren't mothers, are not great women. How do you
read that into it? The message is that all women can be great & have
potential to be great mothers; if anything, men are excluded. The
LDS church in no way diminishes womanhood by professing the sacred divinity of
mothers. How does success in the home take away from any accomplishments outside
of the home? It doesn't! Defining any noble endeavors of motherhood does not
diminish from what a woman can do, but rather adds to it? I am disgusted with
the "What Women Know" movement, because you are the ones limiting what you can
know and do. Shame on you for discrediting yourselves. My mother has
as many accomplishments outside the home as she does in the home, but she will
tell you her greatest accomplishment is raising righteous children who
contribute to society (And even more importantly raise valiant families of their
This is extremely ridiculous. Whats the point?
As most of us either know, heard or experienced, Satan is very clever in his
deceptions. He'll mix a little truth with some lies. He'll supress truth but at
the same time blend it with democracy. He'll espouse agency, freedom and
self-expression but at the same time affiliate them with sin. He's doing the
same thing in connection with movements like "What Women Know" and "Sunstone".
Combining some truth with a lot of error....and maybe....as we've seen in this
forum, activly deceiving some of the very elect.
I like symposia, they are a great place to learn new things and get fresh
perspectives, but I never go to the Sunstone Symposium because I have never seen
a report on their meetings that included the descriptives "fair" or "balanced
discussion" or "sought to present all sides." I understand doubt and
disagreement, I have had many in my 40 years of LDS Church membership, but I
have never had a problem finding answers, and no Church leader has ever resorted
to polemics, insults or degrading the experience of others in answering my
questions. It appears to me that all Sunstone has is the disgruntled, the
disaffected and those who think they can change what some of us accept as Divine
doctrine by pushing their view on the rest of us until we are no longer willing
to stand firm. Ain't gonna happen, bubba.
I grew up in a single parent family. My mother worked part-time while trying to
raise four children. Many fellow Sisters in the ward looked down on her for
being single. (My father died at a young age.) The church leaders placed so much
guilt and blame on her for not allowing a man to join her so she could stay at
home as they had intended. Even us kids were treated as second class members
because we did not have the Ideal Family Dynamic. We were outcasts partially
fueled by the local members but greatly encouraged by the Bishop and Stake
President. I wish more women/mothers would voice their concern over the
persecution that transpires within the the church. I am so thankful that I no
longer feel the oppression and judgement of a flawed patriarchy.
And get over it!!Bit cold in Auckland today!!
jrccmsmom | 4:44 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008 **People, people, people... Did
you listen to the same talk that I did? Nowhere did it say that we were just
supposed to become the best homemakers in the world. There were so many great
and wonderful things in that talk - she talked about standing strong and
immovable in faith. She asked all LDS women to have a current temple recommend,
pray every day, follow the Holy Ghost, study the scriptures. She talked of
standing strong and immovable in family and DEFENDING the family. She talked of
standing strong and immovable in relief which means to lighten up and lift
others. Again, I say, people, people, people, were you even listening to the
same talk I heard and have reread several times?**Thanks, that was
Queen Elizabeth ruled England and she was a women. She did a better job at it
than her dad, Henry IIIV, the looser king.
How thankful my wife and I are for the inspired words of Sister Beck's talk. The
furor behind Sunstone's continuing attempt to cast dispersions upon the Church
this time around caused my wife and I to go back and read the talk together.
Such loving encouragement! All the negative talk here and on the Sunstoned panel
make me question whether they listened or read the same talk I did. Where is the
error in striving to be the Mother that makes such an impact on her children
that their faith is strong enough for them to withstand all the evils and
temptations in this day?Are we perfect? No, but we're striving to go
in that direction. We're both working parents who come home together and strive
to teach and raise our kids together as best we can. We pray that our daughters
and our son learn early to always strive to be better; strive to be good; strive
to do good toward others; above all strive to be as Jesus.
**RE: Just Wondering ...but the doctrine is not on a menu. We can't
just pick the parts we like and leave the rest, as you can with other religions.
If it's true, and there's a living prophet, then he speaks for God and there's
really no room for quibbling.And I haven't heard the General
Authorities taking back anything that was said by Sis. Beck, so I take that as
being affirmed and condoned by our prophet.There just isn't any room
for argument in a voluntary membership organization that claims leadership
directly from God. Either it's true and you follow it, or it's not and you
don't.** Amen, what else is there to say??
**Lucy | 5:25 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008 If men were to get as upset by the
Brethren beating on them about pornography, the women of the church would be up
in arms. If you're upset by Sis. Beck's talk, maybe it's time to ask yourself
why. Ladies, cowboy up!**LOL!! And so true!
Oh I love this page of comments! You are all spot on! Being from Wyoming I
love the "Cowboy Up" comment! Very appropriate! Let's put this puppy to bed
and live the gospel ladies! Thanks Sis Beck!
I loved Sister Beck's talk! I think people are taking offense for no reason. I
found her talk motivational and inspiring. For those of us who are mothers, it
is nice to have some validation that what we are doing is right and good. I am
going to continue trying to be the best homemaker I can be, no matter what our
liberal church feminists say. Go Sister Beck!
Thank you, Sis. Beck, for your faith, courage, and inspired instruction. If the
men would do better at encouraging their wives to take seriously what you said,
our children would be stronger. It's really more about the children's success,
not our own.
Sister Beck's talk was a reaffirmation of the importance of "mothering" in a
family - all types of families. Motherhood is not a second class status thing -
as feminists would like to paint it as. Women have so much opportunity in the
world today - we are to get as much education as we can, and use that education
and our very real God-given talents and gifts to help our families,
neighborhoods, country, and each other. Whether you want to put a $dollar value
on it or not, the experience of losing one's self in "going forth to serve" IS
what is important, not the "box" or "podium" or whatever the experience is put
in. We gotta look outside the box, sisters.
This just goes to show that you can be a mother and run the world too. Men seem
to have a hard time with both.
As soon as they ask "are you a stay-at-home-mom" in the Temple Recommend
interview, then and ONLY then will we know it is a "doctrine of salvation".Otherwise, it is just Sister Beck's opinion. There is nothing wrong with
NOT wanting children. There is nothing wrong with NOT wanting to be a homemaker.
There is nothing wrong with "knowing" but not agreeing with Sister Beck.
I think much of the guilt Mormon women feel is from their own mothers. My
mother would tsk-tsk about a neighbors gray bra straps. She may have had the
whitest laundry in town, but left a whole lot to be desired as a mom. As for me
and my house, we'll use hot water, detergent, oxiclean and call it good. I have
no desire to scrub my bra straps to prove my superiority to someone else. I
know sisters who feel they have to protect their reputation as being the best
seamstress or housekeeper, or cookie maker etc. Please do us all a favor and
stop. Understand there are some things we should excel in such as keeping the
commandments and honoring our covenants. Otherwise recognize when "good enough"
will do. Vacuuming the entire house twice a day or refusing to buy Oreos or
clothes from the mall will not get you into the celestial kingdom. It may
however, grant you entrance to the loony bin. I love a clean house as much as
the next mom, and it's quite often that way. It's just that sometimes other
things take priority.
It's good to have a clean house. It's better to sacrifice vacuuming to render
compassionate service. It's best to have a posterity who will rise up and call
I can't believe we're still going over this. People, live your life. Whatever
you do to use your talents, help others and is enjoyable, DO IT. No one is
stopping you or thinking bad of you. Cheeeee!
The way Camille was treated after the session was horrible, but nobody from the
panel treated her horribly or asserted the ludicrious things she assumed we
meant (SAHMs are bad, everyone needs a PHD). Most of us on the panel are SAHMs,
even though we've got pesky letters after our names. Please, for the love of
pete, stop assuming the DN article accurately represented the panel. It didn't.
And CAmille A. didn't either--she was less courageous than flat-out rude, though
admittedly not half as rude as the person who called her a slave.
Don't you pray to Mary, or Ruth or Mother?
to the priesthood men who think they shouldn't have to do women's work because
they've worked all day-please reconsider. I'll bet most of you have some sort
of support helping you do your job-secretaries, assistants, co-workers,
employees, subcontractors etc. Why then am I expected to work far more hours
than you and then be entitled only to the help a five year old can provide, just
because I'm at home during the day unless I'm chauferring kids, or buying
groceries or visiting the doctor or doing Church service. Of course, if your
wife is home all day and spends all her time watching TV or pursuing hobbies,
recreational shopping or socializing, then you shouldn't have to work hard and
then come home and be responsible for running the house. Just give me a few
minutes of help every day and I will be much happier. You're also setting a
wonderful example to your children of what a real man does.
that it seems that people are looking for ways to be offended here--on both
sides.I listened to Sis. Beck's talk and didn't think that it was
particularly controversial or offensive. And I went to the "What Women Know"
website and didn't see anything there other than good common sense. I don't
think anyone risks their church membership by signing their name. I
really think both sides are saying the same thing. For some reason, they seem
obsessed with criticizing the way the other person says it. That's not Sis.
Beck's fault. That's something going much, much deeper and has to do with
another of the favorite pastimes of church members: converting our own personal
approaches to life into the doctrines of salvation. I'm LDS and I believe that
there are bedrock principles...but not everything I do qualifies.
***Anonymous | 7:21 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008 As an educated, intellectual,
stay-at-home AND work-from-home mother, I was completely inspired by Sister
Beck's talk. For me it was a clarion call to stand a little taller, and to
reflect on the enormous importance of nurturing and teaching my children in love
and righteousness. My children cover the spectrum of mental ability and each
presents unique challenges, but regardless, each child needs to be spiritually
grounded. I find I am able to meet their spiritual needs when I am spiritually
fed myself; likewise I can meet their intellectual needs when my mind is
intellectually stimulated. There is nothing wrong with taking time to nuture
myself as an individual, and I think much of the controversy comes down to the
erroneous assumption that in motherhood we must all run faster than we have the
strength, or until we have no more strength. "Women who know" are swift to tap
into that higher power, that unfailing source of strength, and find that the
seemingly impossible tasks of motherhood are not so impossible after all.***Ahh, beautifully stated!
***Anonymous | 8:34 p.m. Aug. 8, 2008 Sister Becks Talk was a landmark
talk. One of the best talks ever given to women. It was a companion talk to
Elder Oaks talk of that same conference, Good, Better, Best. He also mentioned
some points about todays families that some might have taken to be hard. Those
of you who are a part of this website and are participating in criticizing your
leaders...do you realize what you are doing? You are not a law unto yourselves.
Say what you want, do what you want, but the Lord is in charge and His leaders
will say and must say what He commands. If you have a problem don't point your
finger at His servants, look in the mirror. Sister Beck is the leader for
these times. EVerything she said was right on the mark.***Oh, so
true! I so appreciate your comments & many others here who truly understand &
'know' what Sis. Beck's words meant & that her words were nothing short of
These comments are disturbing to me. The talk I heard doesn't seem to fit with
some of the comments I've been reading. I didn't feel she was asking us as women
to do or be anything less than the best we can be. There is no need to compare
ourselves everyone has different circumstances. But whatever our circumstance
whether married with children, married but childless, or single with children,
or a single woman , the responsibility to be a mother is a role we all should be
honored to hold. There are so many children in our world in need of a loving
caring mother to guide them through the mazes of growing up. I have been a
foster parent and have seen the turmoil that these children live with because
they didn't have someone to be a mother to them. That the attachment and trust
cycle has been broken and these children struggle with every relationship after
that if there isn't some intervention to reverse the damage.So instead of
worrying about being offended or not don't you think we should be thinking of
the children and forget ourselves in doing so just as Christ would.?
The choice between the Doctrines of The Church and the ever changing Doctrines
of what Man Wants which for Women depends at lot on where they where born and
what faith group they where born into. I ranges from almost total lack of social
filters and standards to complete subjugation with burkas and long dresses and
in one or two places the women have to have permission to work and the single
ones have to have male guardians. And all steps in between. The Church just asks
for a few standards, basic morals, that make for a better life for all
concerned. The LDS are not great embracers of the wounded but I have seen great,
great strides made in the last 20 years. LDS Social Services can handle just
about anything. From adopting Kids to Addiction Programs. So the choice between
following man or following God is simple, "as for me and my house we will serve
the lord." My family is somewhat different and there has been some resistance,
but also great love expressed. Choice to hang with them that choice you. Your
friends will be your friends regardless. God loves you always.
I think if every woman on this board would just spend more time in the kitchen
and less time getting "all upset" about this talk, everyone would be better off.
to awesomeron,The LDS Church's doctrines are the ones that are
"ever-changing".In the early 1900's, women in the Church were
required to be homemakers. Even if their husband was killed or incapacitated,
they were not to go out and work, but instead stay at home and take care of the
children and be provided for out of the Church storehouse.Read D&C
83. Why isn't the Church following its own revelations?During the
70's and 80's, Church leaders changed, and widows or women whose husbands could
not provide were "allowed" to work outside the home. But President Benson taught
against women working outside the home for any other reasons.Today,
women work outside the home with their heads held high. They are no longer
marginalized and ostracized... until Sister Beck's retrograde talk! Now the
comment section here is evidence of a subtle hostility and condemnation of women
who work and have careers. All the self-righteous SAHMs have always had this
hidden hostility against "career women". Sister Beck's talk just put it in grand
relief for everyone to see!
I remember listening to Sis. Beck's talk. And I do agree with her. And as a
former lds church leader commented earlier, I will not disagree until another in
authority stands up to correct her. And also as I have seen and to those I have
talked to, this seems to be a "Utah Thing". I stay home with my children and I
raise and nurture them. My husband works. It's our personal choice. We just
don;t want a day care raising our kids. I did work outside the home for a
couple of yrs. but our home didn't run smoothly. We have discovered that for us
- it's better for me to be at home.
Anyone who is or has been LDS or not understands how delicate this subject is.
I recall a letter received from an unwed Japanese convert who grieved because
her understanding was that the afterlife for her did not provide full celestial
rewards. Neither was she to be consoled by any rhetoric suggesting that her
understanding was misguided.However, this has been going on for
tooooo many years, and the bretheren must put an end to the grief and srrife.
It is not healthy for the churchnor is it Christlike.
Wheat and Tares
Statements such as "Faithful daughters of god desire children" (quote from the
talk) are the main reason I initially left the church. I don't want children. I
have never wanted children and would be miserably unhappy in the "ideal" life
that Sister Beck portrays. There are many other women out there like me, and
some give into what they think god wants for them and suffer for it. Their
children likely suffer as well.Pressuring every woman into one limited
role is unhealthy for women, as well as men and children.
Sister Beck's talk was spot on and was exactly what needed to be said. The
truth of it was more than evident as she spoke. IMO, anybody taking offense is
either 1) misinterpreting what was ACTUALLY said, or 2) looking for an excuse to
push a feminist movement in the LDS church.Obviously there are lots
of understandable exceptions to the standard roles of men & women. Most
reasonable members get that. That's not the issue she was addressing. I am
condifent that every church leader in SLC understands these exceptions.The most important thing is that we are trying to do the best we can - keeping
in line with the principles of the gospel - based on the situation we are in.
I wish she would get up in General Conference in October and give
the same talk, verbatim.
Holy cow, women need to chill out. Sis Beck is called by the Lord to speak to
the women of the church. I wonder how many of those who were offended by Sis
Beck's talk would also be offended if the Lord him self were giving the address?
Probably the same number! The Church understands the need for many women to work
in the world today and doesn't condemn them. Economic conditions today force
many mothers into the work force and the vast majority of those women would
rather be at home than punching the time clock. For those women who feel that
children are a burden and would rather be at Gold's Gym primping their bodies I
am sorry for you and your kids.
Just another point that the LDS people are frauds and liars to themselves. The
question is, "WHat do you want" DO you want the church to conform to your
personal needs? What are you looking for? I live in a great ward in San
Clemente, CA and many of the women I associate with had no beefs with Sister
Beck's talk. YOu need to figure out your testimony before you go siging some
wannabee petition. Imagine if our husbands came home after priesthood and went
ahead to start debating the doctrine. Then everytime I hear someone bare their
lifeamony on fast sunday I am just going to walk out.
Sister Beck's talk wasn't meant to "enslave" women and lessen a woman's role in
the world today, rather it was to strengthen and build those women who have
"chosen" to be mothers. We live in a world where many women, LDS and non-LDS
alike, look at their role as a mother as secondary, as confining, and
nongratifying. Sister Beck's talk was designed to let women know that when you
take on the responsibility of having children there is more to it than just
giving birth, it is taking that role very seriously to nurture, teach, and
provide for their wellbeing. I know too many "mothers" today that have chosen
to have children, but then expect for the daycare provider, the school teacher,
the neighbor, the friends, the television, the computer, etc. do the job of
raising, entertaing, and counseling those children while the mother tries to
find her gratification by working, going to the gym, going to the salon or day
spa, etc. It is all about balance...having those extra activities that bring
that kind of happiness but also taking care of those that we have brought into
the world and have stewardship over.
Questions: Are you going to form your own church? Will you allow
men to attend? Will you have women apostles?Will you build your own
temples?Will you design your own Kingdom of Glory in the eternities, one
without men?I dont know if the purpose of my questions is obvious or
not, so let me be clear. As a husband, father, grandfather and great
grandfather, I want to express my sorrow and disappointment for your apparent
dissatisfaction, but having seen the hand of God in the lives of the women in
our family and heard the powerful testimonies of hundreds of those you would
consider oppressed, I feel to warn you that your course is a dangerous one that
is leading you away from the light and truth, the eternal realities and what
might be called the divine facts of life. You are in danger of forfeiting the
opportunity to partake of a fullness of joy prepared from the foundation of the
world for those who are humble and committed followers of the Lord (2 Nephi
9:18). I cannot imagine any sister who is sensitive to the spirit following
such a course.
Christ has taught that we need to be perfect. Why aren't we all in our "closets
crying"? This is a tall order, is it not? What Sister Beck so eloquently spoke
of in her talk said the same thing. We should strive for perfection step by
step, moment by moment. No doubt we will stumble and fall along the way.I loved this talk! I have 5 sisters and a mother who are not perfect,
but are doing the best they can. They are not beating themselves up if they fail
now and again, but they are doing the things we are all taught to do, that is
read the scriptures, pray, teach your children righteousness, etc. They are all
very happy and well grounded with a firm foundation.The process of
perfection won't happen in this lifetime for most of us. We all need to do the
best we can. The plan outlined by Sister Beck is the way we are to find the most
joy in this life. I hope those who are offended or feel over burdened will
eventually see this and stop beating themselves up about it.
We can recieve personal revelation from the Lord.Sis Beck spoke for
the church as a whole, but we as individuals have to act on our own personal
revelations, and we will all be fine.
Growing up my mom and dad made the decision that mom would stay at home and take
care of us kids. I remember after school on many days that the neighborhood
kids would line up for snacks and a drink at our kitchen door. It was a great
blessing to me and my siblings to have a mom in the home. My dad was a teacher,
and with mom at home we didn't have much. I had a close friend who was very
wealthy. He would always want to come to my house. I couldn't understand this
as he had so many cool things to play with. I asked him one day why he never
wanted us to play at his home after school and he told me that he liked that my
mom was at home. As an adult and a father of 4, my wife has needed
to work from time to time outside of the home. The past 4 years, she has stayed
at home with the kids. I am truly blessed to have a wonderfully talented,
degreed wife, who works harder at home than I could ever at work. Being a SAHM
is a thankless job.
To Larry in Manti - thanks for that awesome post!!
To Women "Leaders" - what a myopic and naive comment and perspective, to suggest
Julie Beck . Julie Beck is one of the most well-traveled women in the world, and
none of it for herself. She's been in the mud hut, the grass shack, the
cardboard, tin, or concrete dwelling in the slum all over the world. To suggest
that she is "out of touch" is patently rediculous. She's been there, she
listens, and has connected with just about every culture you can name. When she,
and other women leaders speak, they've been there and experienced others' pain
***Because, face it, your degrees and colleagues won't come visit you when
you're 90 and can't get around anymore. Your kids will, if you gave them what
they needed.***Wow, so true....great comment!
there are all too many women in the church who simply cannot feel fulfilled by
being a stay at home mom alone. Blame it on whoever or whatever you
want but facts are facts, and staying at home with children makes some women
miserable. Even though they love and cherish their children and the gospel the
thought of spending years as a full-time houswife fills them with despair. The sad thing is that often women in the church who feel this way are
looked upon as broken or "unrighteous". I see what Sister Beck was
trying to say but to me it felt a little heavy handed. My wife
battles with three young boys, one of whom is disabled, every day. She really
tried to accept Sister Becks message, she read it and listned to it several
times and every time she felt the same, discouraged and angry. The
last thing she needs to hear form her spritual leader is that "Women who know"
are doing things that she tries and fails at daily.
Yea, I used to be part of that Mormon bubble which tends to look at everything
as black and white, right or wrong. I never saw it that way, blame my indigenous
self. I believe in families, communities, spiritualism, good morals and all
people have a right to good, safe life but this planet doesn't always guarantee
that. It really doesn't matter what one person's opinion is like Sister Beck's
opinion is because you as a Mormon member are living your religion the best way
you know how already, right? Why does matter, your not a robot? I have never
seen the perfect Mormon human being yet, even lived in Utah many years. It
really is a tough organized religion to live if you are a woman who thinks
outside the box all the time.
Very nice Sister, well put, it is always faith promoting to see the decaying
morals and righteousness of even those in the church, surely a sign of more
things to come. It is interesting that this coincides with all of the
"Affirmation" stuff. I love my mom and know the way she did it was the BEST way.
May sound arrogant but it is merely a tribute to my mother who really did do her
best and worried more about me than her. The people writing this
crap are worried more about themselves than their children and their earthly
obligations/suggestions. That selfishness is evident in our kids today. They are
raised seeking the career and the almighty dollar, MAY WE REAP THE WHIRLWIND OF
THAT GREAT REWARD-Great Talk!!! Points well taken. We would be wise
to listen or just ignore it and hope our kids pick it up on their own:)
The problem with these comments and with Sister Beck's talk is that so many of
them demean the "career" women.Sister Beck said "Mothers who know
bear Children". That is not true. Many women "Know" but do NOT bear children,
and they are not sinners! Beck implies that women should at least DESIRE to bear
children. That is also not true. Many wonderful women have no desire to bear
children, and that does not make them sinners nor detract from their
"knowing"!Beck said "Mothers Who Know Are Nurturers" and "Another
word for nurturing is homemaking." The obvious message is that women who are
gainfully employed outside the home, and especially those who WANT to be a
"career woman" DON'T KNOW and are sinners! That is absolutely NOT TRUE!The entire tone of Beck's talk was essentially this: "Women who KNOW are like
me! Women who are NOT like me are ignorant (don't know) and sinful!"We take offense because it was OFFENSIVE. We are bothered by it because (as
shown by these comments) it is an all-too-common attitude of self-righteous
arrogance in the Church. SAHMs have a strong animosity toward us and we are hurt
A Mormon Stuck in 2008 said: ***As much as I respect the advice of the prophets
of old, they lived in the context of their times, and we live in ours.***Their words apply to us today just as much as they did to others in
their day. No different than saying that Christ's words applied to us then &
they apply to us now as they were his mouthpiece...then & now.
A Mormon stuck in 2008 said: **The church is there to provide "advice", and
doctine so that we can become an eternal family.**It's not just
advice but counsel from the Lord to our Leaders which the Lord expects us to
heed/follow. Of course we have our agency to do so or not & if we choose not
we'll answer to the Lord for that choice.**Being an active Mormon, I
am always left thinking, Mormons are weird.Peculiar, maybe, but
definately weird...**We get enough flak from the world because they
feel our standards & way of life are weird, too strict, etc. Who cares what the
world thinks anyway...as a member, seems you'd be more concerned what the Lord
thinks about you/the things you do here regardless of if the world thinks you're
weird, peculiar, etc.
Clarify said: "Young men who were blessing and passing should be encouraged to
wear a white shirt, but it was not required and they should not be denied the
opportunity to participate if they had on another colored shirt. When Sis. Beck
said white shirt I don't think she meant it literally, just clean and
pressed."A while back a GA talked about this. The color white
represents purity - same reason we wear white in the temple & our chapels should
be treated with the same respect as are our temples. I think Sis. Beck meant
white literally for the reasons I stated. The Lord tests our commitment &
obedience even in the smallest of things such as men & boys wearing white shirts
to church. Our level of commitment to the Lord or lack of it comes through in
the way we respond to even the small things the He asks of us.
Podium said: 'I find it interesting that they are so angry with Sister Beck.
Why not the LDS church in general? She is just the messenger.'Exactly.
Many have said her talk only applies to mothers but I disagree as many aspects
can apply to all women.
So much clatter and chatter over the words of one person. These questions and
concerns are very important, indeed. The Being to address and listen to
regarding deeply important issues of how to live our best lives, using ALL of
our God given capacities, is God. God loves all and is available to all.
We do not need a another human being to represent our Father and His divine
guidance for each one of us. Ask, trust and learn to commune with God.
Follow God's voice. Learn to trust that beautiful inner voice and knowing.
The "how" has been written in your hearts. This is one of the greatest
responsibilities and gifts we have been given. Though I am human, I will give
some advice. NEVER give over your own Divinely graced mind, heart and will to
anyone who claims to speak to you on behalf of God.
My mother worked fulltime outside the home, pursued a college education and a
professional career, and raised seven children, ALL of whom graduated from
seminary, served honorable missions, married in the temple, and remain faithful
to this day.She also supported the Equal Rights Amendment in its
day, supports women's right to have an abortion, and supports the right of gay
people to be married. She and her second husband (my father died of cancer) are
serving their third mission for the Church right now.She is one of
the most remarkable women I have ever met. She is highly educated, retired from
a successful career, raised 7 children very well, taught early morning seminary
while working full time and raising us, completed her education AFTER having
started her family and while working fulltime, and served in every Ward and
Stake calling imaginable for women (Stake RS President, Stake YW President, and
others). She has emailed me that she thinks Sister Beck's talk was "an
abomination". I agree completely.Each woman must find what her own
heart tells her regarding having children, education, career, and personal
matters. Beck has no right to condemn others for being different than her.
I remember as a boy, playing baseball with my friends, mom would call us in with
a soft, sweet voice, our sandwiches were made, with only 1/2 flass of juice, If
you finished the juice, water was your preferred beverage for the rest of the
meal. Dad was there, I'd jump on his lap, and beg him to go play catch with us
and our dog Spike. Good days.It was fun. that was the way we lived,
or at leas the way I imaginied it. I had a staty at home mom, We'd get home and
try to sneak out, but the house was alarmed. After a paddle, we'd get to work on
our chores that often took us until 2-3 in the morning, Mom and Dad, passed out
on the bed half naked, my biggest brother would put us to bed. He often got the
belt because our jobs peren't perect.My Big BrotherBrad
killed himself about 5 years ago, same day Mary, my youngest sister moved out
with her boyfriend, They were pregnant.My Mothere Knew she needed
babies to make her life easier.She was one of those "Mother's who
Know".Thanks Sis Beck.UKNEW2.
QUOTE "Beck said "Mothers Who Know Are Nurturers" and "Another word for
nurturing is homemaking." The obvious message is that women who are gainfully
employed outside the home, and especially those who WANT to be a "career woman"
DON'T KNOW and are sinners! That is absolutely NOT TRUE!" UNQUOTETo
truly understand the message, you have to first believe that God loves us. I
believe that the leaders do as well for that is the foundation of their calling.
You can then understand Sister Beck's intent. By not making excuses and simply
doing the best you can in the situation you find yourself in is all that God
asks. It really is that simple. It's not easy, but worth it in the end.If you choose not to do them, that is your choice. However, you might not find
what your looking for. True and meaningful happiness is in doing what is right.
The best way to know these things is to listen and follow the directions given
to us by our church leaders, that is if you believe they are called of God. I
believe they are.Experiment on her words. You might be surprised:).
See her bio below, which explains her remarks to some extent. Note that she
only had three kids - you can draw the conclusion you want from that.Julie Bangerter Beck biography Family: Born Sept.
29, 1954, in Salt Lake City, Utah to Wm. Grant and Geraldine Hamblin Bangerter.
Married Ramon Paul Beck on Dec. 28, 1973, in the Salt Lake Temple. Three
children: Gerilyn (Seth) Merrill, Joseph (Andrea) and Heidi (Daniel) Shin; eight
grandchildren. Education: Graduated from Dixie College with associate
degree, 1974; graduated from BYU with bachelor's degree in family science,
1981. Community service: PTA president and officer; local contest
director with America's Junior Miss Scholarship program; officer and member in
various music teacher associations. Church Service: First counselor in
Young Women general presidency (2002-2007); former member of Young Women general
board, Primary president, teacher and counselor, Scout leader, Young Women
adviser, counselor and president, camp director, Relief Society teacher,
counselor in stake Relief Society presidency; served with husband in Missionary
Training Center branch.
It is my understanding that young men participating in blessing and passing the
Sacrament are not REQUIRED to wear a white shirt. They should be encouraged to
do so, but allowed to participate regardless of shirt color if they are worthy.
One Sunday many years ago, my teenage son got up early so he could come with me
and help set up the Primary room as I was in the presidency. I'd sent him to
the library when I heard someone loudly chastise him for not wearing a white
shirt. He told her he wasn't officiating that week and that he always wore one
when he blessed it. She angrily told him that didn't matter. I then went into
the hall and kindly explained to her that she was waaaay out of line. My son was
and still is a very good kid. In fact, he really isn't a kid anymore. He's an
RM and will be getting married in the Temple in a few months. Her son hasn't
set foot in church for years and is currently living with his girlfriend. I say
pick your battles.
Member teachings need to stop. They are someone's OPINION, not a directive from
Salt Lake. I read in a priesthood bulletin that was sent directly from Church
headquarters and sent to every unit in the Church that WHITE SHIRTS ARE NOT
REQUIRED TO BLESS OR PASS THE SACRAMENT. Personal worthiness is. Young men
should be encouraged to wear white shirts, but allowed to participate otherwise,
if they are worthy. If that policy has changed and someone can show me where I
can find the official policy change, I will stand corrected.
I see priests and deacons all the time wearing a white shirt underneath a
colored sweater. What is the big deal? Members freak out over the silliest
things sometimes. I agree, pick your battles. I've seen deacons with long hair
passing the Sacrament. They're good kids just going through a phase that lots
of teens go through. I tell their exasperated parents, "if thats the worst
thing they do, be happy, it could be far worse. It's not worth damaging your
relationship over and I guarantee the day will come when you'll all have a good
laugh over how silly they looked. Keep them close to you and you'll keep them
close to the Church."
It seems as if the real issue behind the comments is, "Do my actions as a person
(man or woman) affect my relationships and personal sanity?"Obviously, the
answer is YES! Children (and people) respond to our actions and base their
behaviors toward us by how we act. It is very evident that many families with
SAHMs are dysfunctional, and many are also very successful. It can also be said
for families with a career oriented mother. What really matters (if you disagree
that's perfectly fine, because this is my opinion) is that no matter what your
circumstance, as long as your children know that they are the most important
aspect of your life and you do your best to allow them that security, you are
doing your job as a parent.I believe that what Sis. Beck is trying to say
is that "Women who know" will do everything in their power to place their family
first and really strive to create a safe and loving home. Also a little advice,
give them some freedom to decide what they believe and they might suprise you!
As an active member I find it difficult to attend R.S. I was raped years ago and
will never have children. I'm not asking for petty but understanding; that we as
women can be of great wealth in so many other ways beside having babies.
Including women with children. This seems to be an oversite in the wards I've
been in. No children-little worth. I KNOW that's not what my Heavenly Father
thinks of us. But, in many wards it the way members treat the motherless.
Wow, I would have to agree with you. My comment earlier was pretty one-sided
towards women with children. As an LDS male teenager, I think that all women
have incredible value. I have seen time and time again sisters who don't or
can't have children performing countless acts of service in church and in their
communities. for some people who can't have children, it must be incredibly
painful, and I will probably never be able to understand that. and for those who
don't want them I can respect their decision. My opinion is that as long as a
person strives to be the best they can be within their own personal beliefs,
that anybody else's opinion is pointless, because as long as they are striving
to be better they are as close to perfection as can be attained in this life!
should ever judge why someone doesn't have kids. it is none of their business.
give them the benefit of the doubt and know their reasons are valid ones. some
can't and don't want to adopt and don't want to explain that to satisfy
everyone's curiosity. some have tried to adopt more than once and each time the
birth mother changed her mind. maybe some are too afraid to have kids because
of emotional trauma. I know a prominent sister who never had children and oh my
goodness, what a wonderful, wonderful woman she is and such a blessing to her
extended family as well as the rest of us.
Pride goeth before a fall.
I am married to a well-educated professional woman who is also the terrific
mother of our four children. We met in New York City where my wife earned an
MBA in international finance from NYU and had a very successful career on Wall
Street. She continued working full-time from home until the birth of our second
child. At that point, she made the difficult choice to stop working for others
and focus full time on raising our children and managing our home - for a
season. By that time, I had finished graduate school and started my career. We
are a TEAM! Both of us considered Julie Beck's conference address one of the
best we had ever heard. We are completely puzzled why anyone would be offended
by hearing Sis. Beck state so clearly the Church's postion on the ideal of
Adam said:Therefore shall a man leave his (father) and his (mother), and
shall cleave unto his wife: Adam loved his heavenly mother and was taught
many wonderful things by her.I grew up in an orphanage and missed the
wonderful love I see so many LDS mothers giving their children.And I have
seen the love sons and daughters have for their wonderful mothers.I worked
hard so my wife could stay home with our four children, I will always be happy
because I did.Oh! That I could have had a childhood with an LDS mother.You don't realize how much you are admired.
Sister Becks talk: two thirds just fine, one third rather bewildering. Why would
ANYONE want to tell a Mormon woman to be "the best"? That is absurdly offensive
to non-Mormon women, and laughable for anyone who knows the industrious
sub-culture of Mormon women. Most women and girls are already killing themselves
trying to keep up with strict cultural norms--what we look like, how well we
manage our lives, etc. Becks unfortunate wording was a call to greater
competitiveness than a gentle reminder to love God and woman- and mankind. For
leading the worlds largest womens organization, Becks talk seemed oblivious of
important streams of thought on women and society (within and outside the
church). Without extending a word or a signal of "lets discuss" to alternative
views, I felt alienated--the "best" of anything seems unrealistic for me at this
mid-life stage of keeping a marriage together, raising little boys, pursuing a
demanding and rewarding career, trying to keep my tomato and zuchini plants
alive... Becks talk was out of touch--a more loving, pragmatic, "we can do this
thing together" tone would have been more effective. We must expect more from
the leadership of a nearly 5 million strong organization.
It was an interesting talk and I have to admit I was angry at first. It has
been a difficult year for my family. I wish I oould know how to be a mother and
know what I was doing was right, but here I am after another night of no sleep
wondering how I am going to make it through the next day without yelling at my
children and teach them correct principles. Regardless mothering is important
and a serious job no matter how you put it.
If Margaret Toscanco says it it must be true. We should always follow the
advice of a former member of the church who was excommunicated for APOSTACY.
Since she is so smart and knows more than anyone else, including people that are
called by God, we should blindly follow her.Her opinion is just
that, an opinion. She thinks that she knows better than church leaders. I for
one read Sister Beck's talk and I found nothing in it that was the least bit
controversial. Only those looking to cast dispersions or nit picking are upset.
Ms. Toscano needs to get over her education and humble herself. Or maybe pray
to the Mother in Heaven for help.
Who would ever feel victimized or acted upon or confined or enslaved by CHOOSING
to stay home with her children? It is very fulfilling for me to be able to play
the role of mother in every sense. Then there is my all time hero, Ardeth Kapp,
who didn't have any children of her own and yet became mother to thousands (me
included) by her gentle and loving leadership. The key is asking the Lord what
His will is for us and then run with it. The Church is here to help us in our
road to become Christ's disciples, which cannot be done if we have the "me
It is so sad when so many people become apostate over the words of a church
leader. What makes it even worse is the deceptive tactics used by the leaders of
this anti movement. "For of this sort are they which creep into
houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers
lusts." 2 Tim. 3: 6
When I heard the talk, I wasn't offended at all, but thought "here we go." I
knew some would be. I knew when she talked about being the best Mothers and
homemakers many would be offended. Guess which ones I was thinking of? Those
whose homes and children are completely out of control. (I wonder if there is a
correlation.) These are the women who whine about how overwhelmed they are and
expect loads of sympathy. All the while they do nothing to solve their own
problems. They expect everyone else to cut them some slack. After all a woman
with 5 kids has absolutely no idea what stress is since she doesn't have 8 kids.
They don't think they should be asked to serve in Primary because I'm with kids
all day long. Guess what, so are we!!! I'm soooo sick of their whining. Take
her talk to heart and then get up and do something about your sad state of
affairs. Just do it. I"m so grateful for the oh so slightly dysfunctional
Mormon families since there is no such thing as perfection in this lifeand
appreciate counsel and motivation to help us do better.
Well when 1 Talk gains so much adversity, yet so much support from the Brethren,
something isn't right in the WORLD! Sounds like a lot of SELFISH WOMEN & Men to
me! Ever stop to consider the roll of women in the future generations after they
are gone, there are the Fruits of their work, not so much while they are here!
Those who oppose the views are selfishly considering what else they could be
doing with their time and efforts rather than look out for the NEXT GENERATION
and keep it on the right track. For those who can't be Mothers, your role is no
less diminished, You are of royal inheritance, teachers, nurturers and loving
women who will be mothers on the other side of the veil if you prepare
yourselves for it. Then again, once more, there is selfishness allowing anger to
take over the natural man and not allow the spiritual man to take over and
understand the message which was being given, and the spirit by which it was
meant to be understood. May God Bless You to see by the Spirit the true meaning
of the message, that you might understand it better.
I just re-read my many posts on this thread and it hit me in the face that I
have said things that could be hurtful and imply judgement toward my sisters in
the community. I apologize. I could have phrased things better. I could have
better considered your perspective.I think I was coming down off a
sleepless high after serving at girls camp and getting caught up on canning.
Please forgive me. We all have value and there are many, many ways to walk a
righteous path including being former LDS.
Isn't that what Conference is all about...? Learning our errand from the Lord,
seeing if our lives match it, and then adjusting, repenting, obeying if it needs
amending. The people in Noah's day had their own thoughts about life. The
prophet, and other leaders do have our best interests at heart. We can choose
to obey and find eternal happiness, or we can choose to follow a more selfish
path and learn the consequences. Its our choice.
I enjoyed Sisters Beck's comments. Every woman married or not with children or
not could get something of worth out of her address. We should all aspire to to
be and do better. If you are upset by what was said by her you should look in a
mirror and ask what part of this problem is mine.
Whatwomenknow.org should be asking themselves why they really find offense at
this talk1 Ne. 16:2...the guilty taketh the truth to be hard,
for it cutteth them to the very center.2 Ne. 9:40I know that
the words of truth are hard against all uncleanness; but the righteous fear them
not, for they love the truth and are not shaken.John 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light,
lest his deeds should be reproved.
**Being an active Mormon, I am always left thinking, Mormons are weird.Peculiar, maybe, but definately weird...**"We get enough flak from
the world because they feel our standards & way of life are weird, too strict,
etc. Who cares what the world thinks anyway...as a member, seems you'd be more
concerned what the Lord thinks about you/the things you do here regardless of if
the world thinks you're weird, peculiar, etc." Re-read my quote
again. I did not say that I cared what the world thinks...I said
that "mormons are weird". We are. We get all torqued up over the smallest
things, and we can't rest until everyone comforms to my, wait his, no, her... no
their particular way of thinking.I'm fine with what the Lord thinks
of me. I don't care what other LDS, such as yourself thinks. That's what bugs
you, and makes you weird.Loosen up all fellow Mormons. Perfections
is a goal, and I don't need 90 posts by John Pack Lambert telling me how to
live. Just the "Advice/Counsel (synonyms--you're splitting hairs)" from the GA's
and I'll be fine. The Lord and I have a deal.I'm gonna be GREAT.You're weird.
luvsisbeck! | 2:29 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008 A Mormon Stuck in 2008 said: ***As
much as I respect the advice of the prophets of old, they lived in the context
of their times, and we live in ours.*** The point is, canning, quilting,
keeping the outhouse clean, sweeping the dirt floor, driving the wagon to town
for suppies once a week are part of the "home-makers" job tuition.We
both have jobs, are home when the kids leave and return, my wife does not like
to clean and I don't like to mow lawns, so we pay someone to do it.That is the context of our times. We both work outside the home, and both
nuture our kids. We don't have family night, because every night is spent with
our children, we pray and read scriptures (I have a calling that i do during
church, so I'm not at the chaple at night and all day Sunday).I
think in 2008 we can use some of the modern stuff, and utilize to be better
parents than those from olden days.My grandfather was working the
fam from sun-up to sundown.I can spend that time with my family.
"Re; luvsisbeck | 4:36 p.m. Aug. 13, 2008 It is my understanding that
young men participating in blessing and passing the Sacrament are not REQUIRED
to wear a white shirt. They should be encouraged to do so, but allowed to
participate regardless of shirt color if they are worthy."So about
20 years agao, I was Elder's Quorum President and we were working hard to keep
one of our Elder's active. He and I were blessing the sacrament, and he was
wearing a colored shirt without a tie.The meeting was just about to
start when the Deacon's Quorum Adviser came up and told him about the white
shirt and tie thing, and told him he could bless the sacrament instead. I told
him we were fine, I took off my tie and gave it to him and I belssed the
sacrament without a tie. I do not think anyone partaking the sacrament that day
lost their "soul", but I never saw my friend in church again.Don't
we get a bit twisted up in the little things there, fellow LDS.One
of the reasons I think Mormons are weird.Wouldn't the lord be
pleased all made it back?
Wow, do you think so.Now multiply that by 300 plus per ward, and
there are plenty of peopl out there to tell us what to do.Get some
rest, and can some apricots for me. Otherwise, I'm going to need to buy a can at
the store for 79 cents, and just think how that will affect my eternal
I concur with the comment that Sister Beck's focus was on motherhood. I can
appreciate that not all capable LDS women want to be mothers. It is a very
challenging and demanding responsibility. It is also a calling that is essential
to Heavenly Father's objective of bringing to pass the eternal life of his
children. Those who determine that it is in their best interest not to be a
mother are loved and appreciated by Heavenly Father. Such women may concurrently
and consciously be deciding that they did not want the role of motherhood in the
life to come. The Savior taught that in his Father's house are many mansions, or
kingdoms. Not all women will be exalted beings. That does not mean that the
cannot, nor will not, be happy in the life to come. "Know this that every soul
is free to choose his life and what he[she] will be, for this eternal
truth is given, God will force no man[women] to heaven [exaltation
in the celestial kingdon]." God and all faithful LDS saints love women
regardless of their choices.
respond"Repentence | 9:56 a.m. Aug. 14, 2008 "Isn't that what
conference is all about"...Have you read these posts? Don't ya'll
think people get tired of others telling them what to do? Quoting you "We can
choose to obey and find eternal happiness, or we can choose to follow a more
selfish path and learn the consequences. Its our choice."Where in
conference was the word "selfish" used?From a fellow Mormon, cut all
the judgemental, self-righteous, know-it-all, arrogant crap, life your OWN life,
and let us live ours. I see where all the mormon hate in this area comes
from.And I know, me posting tha is judgemental, but please, leave me
alone. I don't want your help. God and I have a deal, and I'm fine...
It's to hard wa wa wa! I want a religion that doesn't require any effort or wa
Serious dude, if iwanted pentacostal, I would be thumping bibles down in the
South.Imagine this possibility, God knows us, loves us, and is our
friend.Don't take this too hard:To:You, Luvsibeck,
John Lambert et al.Please stop pontificating and leave us
alone...1 Ne. 16:2...the guilty taketh the truth to be hard,
for it cutteth them to the very center.Pray about all the
selfrighteous damage you have done over the past few days.
I'm a mother of 5. I loved Julie Beck's talk because it was so bold. I love
this debate, too, quite honestly. I think there should be more dialog between
church leaders and those of us who are swimming in young motherhood. But I also think that while Beck's talk was aimed at value in motherhood, her
list of traits was not exhaustive. It could have gone on for hours if she were
to outline all the ways that women show they "know." The value of this debate
will be if women make their own list of ways they show they know individually.
Our strength comes in our collective individuality.
Most ward and stake male leaders have no earthly idea what they're asking of a
mother when they ask her to take a major calling. All they know is that they
need their organization to function and they don't want to have to do all the
hard work. Men must become more sensitive to women's roles and pressure. We're
not here to perform for you. If we're going to believe that motherhood is the
highest and noblest calling, then men in the church are going to have to start
respecting our time and stress management issues.
What is the point of this life? To bring to pass the eternal life and
immortality of man!Why do church leaders hope that we will get
married quickly? So that we can focus on someone else other than ourselves.
When we serve others we serve our Heavenly Father.Why should we have
children? So that again we can focus on serving others. The Lord wants us to
raise children righteously, he wants them to learn the gospel, and know that
they are loved.Why do we judge others as LDS members? To make
ouselves feel better. Take some stress off of your life and let the Lord be the
Judge.It all comes back to pride. What identity do "I" have? What
about "MY" developement? Me Me Me.
I probably would have been offended by Julie Beck's talk about twenty years ago,
when I was twelve and thought I was a feminist. Since then, I have learned for
myself, not by anyone else telling me, what is important to me and where I fit
in the grand scheme of things. It boils down to having our own confirmation of
our purpose in life. Mine right now is to be a great mom when I am with my kids
and a great therapist when I am at work and a great person of service when I am
doing the duties I owe to God and humanity. I don't think Julie Beck is binding
us to one role- she is encouraging us to set our priorities straight, and to
rely on our Heavenly Father for guidance.
Re: Member Teachings at 5:55PM, Aug 13--Jeffrey Holland speaking:"May I suggest that wherever possible a white shirt be worn by the
deacons, teachers, and priests who handle the sacrament. For sacred ordinances
in the Church we often use ceremonial clothing, and a white shirt could be seen
as a gentle reminder of the white clothing you wore in the baptismal font and an
anticipation of the white shirt you will soon wear into the temple and onto your
missions.That simple suggestion is not intended to be pharisaic or formalistic. We do not want deacons or priests in uniforms or
unduly concerned about anything but the purity of their lives. But how our young
people dress can teach a holy principle to us all, and it certainly can convey
sanctity. As President David O. McKay taught, a white shirt contributes to the
sacredness of the holy sacrament"So, you're right--not official
"policy", for the pharisaic or formalistic in the crowd.
Reading the ranting and raving about motherhood just makes me want to say: I
Love you, I love you, I love you! Do the best you can. That's all
you can do!
While I understand and agree that a major calling for a woman with multiple
children is a huge, exhaustive undertaking, you do have to realize that they
don't come from male leaders looking to make their lives easier. Church leaders
pray for inspiration in filling every single last calling in the ward. Those
choices are then verified by counselors who also pray for inspiration. I've seen
it happen that way for callings as "small" as working in the library, playing
piano in RS, or leading the YW choir. Callings come from the Lord, not from men
or women in the ward.
I was getting scared for a second.. where is the opposition that fights true
religion? ah ha! here it is! Glad to see we're still running
against the wind.Long live Sister Beck!and I don't hate
women, I love them! I'm married to one of the best!
members would stop judging and worrying what others - including our leaders -
think of us and just worry about our relationship with the Savior. Are you
doing the best YOU can do in your uniques situation? That's all that matters.
And that answer is between you and the Lord - not Sister Beck, your Bishop, or
anyone else. Each leader will likely have a different opinion of your situation
so save yourself the guilt and just walk this life with the Lord. The Church is
here for fellowship and opportunities to serve and love not to make us feel
inadequate or judged.
I think some of the tumult surrounding "the talk" by Julie Beck could be done
away with (i.e., the alleged de-valuation of unmarried or childless women) by
noting that Beck's second counselor in the General Relief Society Presidency,
Barbara Thompson, has never been married. Judging from her bio, she is career
woman with a lot of accomplishments to her credit.
I have read Beck's talk, and I have read this article, and I have read these
comments, and you know what? This has helped me make up my mind. I am tired of
trying to please everyone else. I am tired of being told what to do by everyone
else. Call me selfish if you want, but I don't care anymore. I am going to
resign from my Church calling and spend my Sundays just relaxing. I don't need
all this condemnation just because I work fulltime. My life and my decisions are
mine and none of you have any right to judge me. I have had it. I quit.
Um, excuse me. I beg to differ with your opinion that "church leaders pray for
inspiration in filling every single last calling in the ward. . ." I have been
in the meetings where members are traded - I'll give you Jane if I can have Joe
and Peter, I've got Paula and Molly up - how about giving me Dick, etc. I've
also been called in and asked where I would like to next serve and we've
hammered out a deal. I seen similar in wards in 19 states.I would
say your experience of "every calling inspired" happens in a very small
percentage of wards.
After hearing the initial post conference Beck Bash my wife asked that I read
the talk and try to explain to her what all the excitement was about. We've
read it together 5 times and still can't figure out why there's so many women
turned sideways. My wife's been a starving college student, a poor newly wed, a
middle income new mother, a successful business woman, and now a stay at home
mother of 7 (ages 5-17) with money. Her view on this is..."women, use your
energy and time on making your life as successful as you can, the Lord will fill
in the gaps."
We've all been there, Lacy. You've given all you have, and you barely have
strength to walk to the outside trash to dump the diaper. But don't give up.
Remember the Lord said,(D&C 10:40)Do not run faster or labor more than you have
strength ... but be diligent unto the end. It's not about the Church or your
calling or what your neighbors think about you working full-time. It's about
your relationship with your Savior. Focus on that and on your family. Find out
how the Atonement can work in your day--every day. Love your kids. Forget about
what others may think. Remember this talk had to apply to 6 million women, and
therefore had to be general. Forget about it. I wish we were neighbors. I'd be
there for you. Maybe someone is. No one condemns you. Your life is yours, but
Christ paid the price for it. Don't discount him. Chin up, girl. Working
full-time does not devalue you. You are doing what you can. Keep it up. Don't
try to please any one. It never works. God knows your heart. No one else's
opinion means squat.
I just got in. Who's this Sister Beck lady?
I appreciate the clarification on Aaronic priesthood and white shirts. I
understand the only men that need to wear white shirts to Sacrament mtg are
those who sit on the stand. I see lots of white shirts and lots of colored
shirts on worthy Melchizedek priesthood holders. My opinion is that it should be
clean and pressed regardless of color. Some men wear suits, some sport coats and
some are coatless, especially in warmer weather. Women aren't told exactly what
to wear, just general guidelines of what is appropriate. I'd like to know an
official answer, not a members opinion. thanks
I can honestly say that I have benefitted from every church calling, even though
I may not have liked every calling. I have learned so much and continue to
learn. At times, when I have had a lot of stress to deal with, kind bishops
have been there to help me through things, and yes, have released me when I
needed some time off. Each of us is an individual with different strengths and
needs, and we are at different seasons in our lives. The bishop will understand
that you are tired.So do take some time off, but don't remove
yourself from the support the other ward members can give you. I am not
judging; in fact I totally understand where you're coming from. I've been
there. The older I've gotten, the more understanding I've become. The Lord
knows your situation. He's the One who really matters, ultimately. Trust Him,
I think people forget that when the original Releif society was formed the only
role women had at that time was to be a mother. Times have changed and while
some women can stay at home.. Some for whatever reason cant have children..Basically. I want to be respected for as a human being on this earth.
Not for something that my body can do or not do.I dont want my
membership to be any less because of that status
You are so right my brother! You nailed it! Dead center! Spot on! You are wise,
maybe even a genius! Some of the rest of you sound really scarey!
"Its all about MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" Nothing else is as important as my
FEELINGS!!!! I am a slave to how I FEEL! If you don't respect my FEELINGS, you
are insensitive. If you don't respect MY feelings, you are despicable! That's
what some of you sound like to me! Get over yourself! The world doesn't revolve
around how you feel! Sister Beck is right on!
A firestorm of controversy occurred after the talk? I wouldn't call 500
signatures and the same old groups grinding their axes against the church a
I understand what you are saying, but I just can't continue with all these other
women criticizing and condemning me because I work fulltime. I have overlooked
it for so long. They treat me like an outsider because I am not a stay at home
mom like them. I know what they say behind my back. They say the same sickening
things I have read on these comments. They accuse me of being worldly because I
try to take care of myself and dress professionally and well. I like to look
good, but I also dress well for my job. I like what I do and dressing well is
who I am. I am tired of being judged for it because I am not like the other
women. They are so condescending toward me, just like all the people on these
comments. This has been brewing for me for about 5 years. I've talked with my
husband about it. He supports me in whatever I want to do. But this is just it.
I have had enough. I refuse to spend anymore nights crying myself to sleep
because these women make me feel like such a horrible person.
I just listened to Julie Beck's talk again, I must say that I don't hear
anything in there that hasn't been said by the leadership of the LDS Church many
times before. She stated a set of true parenting principals that represent
ideals, not absolute expectations or reality. For anyone to read insults into
this talk to me seems unfair to Sis. Beck. Those who have and
continue to take offense at this kind of fundamental Church doctrine are walking
on their way out the door. My guess is that parenting outside the Church
doesn't get any easier or more liberating than inside it.Boy, it's
cliche, but beware of kicking against the pricks....
I hear you.Best wishes for walking your walk with integrity to
yourself. It's amazing how freeing and empowering it is. Oh, that everyone
could feel the joy of being true to themselves.
I prefer Sister Beck's interpretation of perfection than the encroaching Utah
culture of botox, breast implants, liposuction, tanning, microdermabrasion, and
so many other procedures proudly practiced by women with a lot of money, too
much time, and low self esteem.She teaches the gospel principles of
developing spiritual talents that we will need in the life after this and asks
us to take the responsibility to attend to our children whom we decided to have.
All women work either in the home or outside of the home. Some are
paid money. Some are not. That isn't the issue. It is what we do with our
time and talents in preparing the next generation to be able to stand true to
gospel principles.I am a product of a mom who went to work outside
the home after her husband died. I have never viewed her as a perfect mom,
although I know that in both circumstances she did the best that SHE could do.
In both circumstances she had her priorities straight. She is not LDS.
However, I have felt more empowered as an LDS woman than in the religion I was
raised in. Sister Beck is right on.
Honestly, the root of our problems here in Utah root for the culture of
religious extremism. Although we have one of the most liberal christian
religions in the world... Shall I recall the abortion policy by church, the no
side on stemcell, openess to work with other religions (for all of you neocons,
that means middle eastern terrorist organisations), and the comprehensive sight
on homosexuals. Yet, we still intend to generate full-time mothers, and not
respect the choice of some to help the family by full-time working. I find it
so hypocritical. In my opinionreligion is true, but Utah mormons are getting so
off their rockers on so many things that I feel we are competing with the bible
belt to be the most self-righteous. Funny you get out of Utah, still keep it in
the church, and you would never get such comments and reactions of people like
the pro Beck movement. If you ever attend a church in other country and other
language, you will notice they actually spend time talking about stuff that is
worth it, and not about indoctrinating women into an idea of a mother-centric
role. They are people too. This comes from a Mormon.
You will be missed. I sincerely mean that. I wish you could see how many in
your ward see you, as a wonderful, organized woman and a cherished sister. My
best friend is a Mom of 5 and has always worked full time. Every one of her kids
are active in the Church and happy, healthy adults. She has asked me on several
occasions if I think she should quit her job. I've always told her that it's
not my place to tell her what to do. (I'm a SAHM) Only she knows the condition
of her bank account or stress level or a myriad of other factors in why she
works. She is prone to depression and for her, working helps her deal with it.
BTW she is a RM. I love her and I love you and want what is best for you. Please
don't let the critical ones bring you down. Your posts have opened alot of eyes
and brought them to a realization of the error of their ways. I think the self
rigteous attitude is far more common in Utah, having lived there 33 years. You
could move:D just kidding. You are loved.
I am shocked. I was not raised in this culture. I have seen and experienced
much. This was my favorite talk and one I want to live. I want to be a mother
who knows. A mother who knows Christ. I thought it was beautiful. I am
choosing to stay home with my children. I am choosing to follow the council
given in conference. I am not perfect. BUT I will try to be a mother who
knows. If that means I cut the cord of the T.V like Sister Erying than I will.
I have had to not be prideful, try harder, and repent. I will do it because I
know it is true and I love it.
I hope you just mean you'll quit your calling and not quit the church. We need
you, sister, and you need us. I've had some of the same feelings you describe
about giving up on trying to meet others' expectations, and that's fine. I'd say
it's good to go thru that -- it's growth. I find much of the social/cultural
aspects of the church are actually discouraging to me, too, but I find simple
joy in trying to live the commandments and have a relationship with the Lord. I
hope you do, too.
Sister Beck's talk was absolutely amazing. I have had it on my mp3 player ever
since and listen to it often. If what she said was not the doctrine of the
church, then they would not have let her give the talk. Grow up and stop
complaining about something that the church has held as one of it's core
doctrines since the beginning. All the whining isn't going to change anything,
just make those who understand the values and doctrines of the church more
They called it. . .
Well, I did it. Last night I called the Bishopric Counselor (the Sunday School
President was not available) and told him I would not be continuing in my
calling. I was Gospel Doctrine instructor. I cancelled my visiting teaching
appointments. I feel such a relief and so empowered! I dont care what the other
women think of me anymore. It is so liberating! I can hardly describe how good
it feels!Thank you for reading my comments. It was important for me
to work through this. I am as excited about the future as I have ever been!
As a male and ex-bishop, I understand your frustration. My wife and I spent the
first 3 years of our marriage childless (not by choice). I was called as a
bishop shortly after we got married and so many people made comments to me like,
"When are you going to have children? Or, "You are the bishop, shouldn't you be
setting the example?" This hurt us, as we were spending tons of money on
fertility treatments, and desired to have children. My point is that people can
be very hurtful, even when they do not mean to be. One thing that I have
learned is that we are all on our own (I include families in the singular) when
it comes to our eternal salvation. It is a real shame when people make the
choice to distance themselves from the gospel based largely on how other
imperfect people make them feel. I have often wondered if any of us will ever
make it to the Celestial kingdom based on our natural state and imperfections,
but have come to realise that if we are trying hard and doing our very best,
then a loving Father will welcome us back. Keep going.
I hope i dont offend any women out there, but the one person i look up to and
love more than any person in this world is my mother. Say all you want about
disrespect, but in the eyes of a child a mother is the most important person
around. i Love you Mom.
You go, girl!Remember the feeling. There will be times when you
struggle and when the hurt seems overwhelming, but remember you are in charge of
your direction. You know the situation you're in and what will work. Looks
like you have the support of your husband as well. Together work out what's
best for your family and follow that no matter what anyone else says. You will
Interesting you underscored "ex-bishop" with "male." Probably not necessary.
While human beings make mistakes, and I have seen many mistakes made extending
callings, my experience is that most callings are carefully and prayerfully
considered.The real issue is not callings, however, but the slow
expansion of demands on families (church programs/responsibilities/meetings,
labor markets, schools/training, etc.). The gospel doesn't change, but church
programs must change as needs do. Men are feeling the heat too; A 10-30+ hr/wk
calling such as Bishop, StakePresident, Counselor, Scoutmaster, YMAdvisor,
EQPresident, 11-Year-Old-Scout-Leader, ExecSecretary, etc.), providing for a
family with a 40-60 hr/wk commitment to an employer, taking care of parents/
siblings/neighbors, keeping skills current in an increasingly competitive job
market, etc., going to GirlsCamp/HighAdventure/ScoutCamp/YouthConferenc, etc.
and still trying to be a husband and father.Demands outside of
Utah/West are even greater with early morning seminary (teachers called from the
wards-a 20-25+ hr/wk calling that starts at 5:00am M-F, kids up at 5:15) and
more needy families with less extended family support. It's not uncommon to
have 6-8 hometeaching families and multiple callings in an effort to meet all
the needs and run church programs.We need to downsize the programs
and demands on families or the church will end up harming rather than supporting
Don't forget that if you have the gift of the Holy Ghost, you can know the truth
for yourself. We're supposed to get our own confirmation of what our leaders
tell us. If something doesn't sit with us right, we can take the matter to the
Lord and say, "This doesn't sit with me right." Maybe the Holy Ghost has a
personalized interpretation for us.
You said a mouthful. For years I have felt that being an active church member
meant I had to choose between having a real family life and being at meetings,
doing callings, and serving others. As a family we were running ragged.
Finally wised up and downsized our outside activities, including church callings
and meetings. We are much closer and much, much happier. We still attend
church on Sundays, but mid-week activities are optional depending on what else
we have going on as individuals and as a family.
"Well, I did it. Last night I called the Bishopric Counselor (the Sunday School
President was not available) and told him I would not be continuing in my
calling. I was Gospel Doctrine instructor. I cancelled my visiting teaching
appointments. I feel such a relief and so empowered! I dont care what the other
women think of me anymore. It is so liberating! I can hardly describe how good
it feels!"I'm happy for you! As someone who was openly judged
for not wanting children and not wanting the "mothers who know" lifestyle, I am
so much happier in a community that accepts me completely for who I am, which
the LDS church didn't.
I wonder what the emails and blogs would have been saying years ago when Noah
was commanded to start building an ark in the middle of the desert. Thank you
Perhaps there's more to this life than defining our roles down to one
narrowminded, foolish talk. Why would heavenly father give us our amazing
brains if we weren't supposed to use them? Maybe there's a lot more to this
thing we call life than what we've been allowed to think. Think about that...
I loved Sis. Beck's talk. I don't know anyone who doesn't want to be better than
they are now. I needed the advice she gave on what to do to become a better
Mother, wife and house keeper. She is giving us the message that the Lord want
us to hear. These women who complain about this talk know better. Thank you Sis.
The talk that Sis. Beck gave was to the general public (all women in the
church). Of course there are acceptions to the talk. It she listed every
acception to what she had to say, it would take up the time of her talk. Elder
Bednar gave a talk in Conference a year or two ago about "taking offense". I
think a lot of these women who are haveing problems with this talk need to read
his talk. She gave us the message that the Lord wanted us to here. All the Lord
asks of us is to do our very best in all we do. How many women are doing there
very best? I know that there is so much more I can do!
I feel this whole discussion is self-evident of the motives of those who
question their own religion in unproductive ways. When a person who views their
membership in a faith as a tangential thing for which its customs and morays are
not really relevant, they should not be upset or surprised when claims made by
those whom they say lead them are different from what they would like to hear.
I fully understand the pain of many, but it seems to me that this is an
extremely powerful indicator of how powerful the original words were and
powerfully different the spirit of the listeners was also. I don't pretend to
think that anyone should swallow and word without pause, but those in the church
already know that the words chosen by their leaders are careful, especially at
the top and that the words spoken already account for the arguments made against
it. Motherhood IS a broad term and should be accepted as inclusive and there is
not real conflict in what was said even for our times. It will, has and should
be said forever.
I don't believe "risking" membership is the right phrase. They would be making
the choice to no longer attend because of their "offended" nature. They would
not be asked to leave. That is highly overdramatized.I liked a lot
of the previous comments. I choose as did several of my non member friends to
stay at home and raise my children. There is nothing degrading or lessening my
purpose in life. There is no where I would rather be then at home. I feel
sorry for my husband that he can't be here to see and experience the joys of our
children everyday. The church has always said there are those who
have no choice but to go to work. There is nothing wrong with that. Those to
feel they are not complete until they have something outside to make them whole
need to rethink why.Don't be so quick to be offended. Sister Beck
was not speaking to offend, it is your choice to take it that way.
After reading through more of these comments it seems there are a lot of
complaints about work and time. Boy the time and work involved with all this
complaining has me exhausted! I'm going to take a nap with my 2 year old while
my hubby is at work.