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Summit targets FLDS

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  • Bogus Headline
    June 12, 2008 1:51 a.m.

    Headline "Summit targets FLDS" the very name of the headline states its unconstitutional, Government/ Law enforcement should never target any Religious group, they should be targeting Crimes. I hope the federal Government or someone stops this Blatant Attack on THE U.S.A. that is if this Headline is Accurate news, Im not sure anymore.

  • mensem
    June 12, 2008 4:48 a.m.

    Ok, I'm still waiting for the "charges" that were suppose to come out of the CPS investigation. I read about a lot of CYA from local and state authorities after this flap and I'm still waiting for some kind of proof. A bunch of embarrased law (?) enforcers meeting in Utah means nothing. Where's the proof. Put up or shut up.
    You know what's really scary? People who don't have the money to get lawyers and fight these people often get rolled over. Often it's just an abuse of the poor. Sad, sad, sad!!!

  • watching
    June 12, 2008 5:55 a.m.

    I think it's great something is being done, and the sharing of information going on. This whole flds needs a heads up that certain things aren't allowed to happen in the name of religon... keep the lines open and inforce our laws.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 6:01 a.m.

    What are they targeting?

    Our entire "main stream" culture has completely denigrated the idea of marriage. Multiple partners throughout a life is considered normal. People marry and divorce or never marry at all....
    So, what are they targeting? Perhaps, that these groups actually seem to value their children and don't throw them away?

  • NoMo FLDS
    June 12, 2008 7:11 a.m.

    Good. It's about time that religious prisons were shut down, no matter where they go. There has to be a line somewhere before whatever takes place to get underage girls to have sex with their creepy old uncles. Before young lives are denied and robbed so they can be sex slaves. This isn't religion. Go get 'em.

  • a visitor
    June 12, 2008 7:11 a.m.

    Its unbelievable that a government agency is targeting a specific religion.

  • leelee
    June 12, 2008 7:12 a.m.

    There is something we tend to forget. We have freedom of religion until that religion puts someone or something at risk of danger or abuse of any type. Including, verbal, mental, physical, and sexual. Talk to anyone who was a part of the FLDS and they are usually open about what went on. The majority of the people are not bad. They just don't know any different. And when you have one man telling everyone what to do for everything in your life and it goes on for generations, and your education and communication is close to non existent, it a harsh cycle and the government will step in. When you are denying you children an education to help further their lives, or worse forcing your family to live in poverty and malnourished, the government will protect the childrens civil rights. Thats what America is about.

  • Re: What are they targeting?
    June 12, 2008 7:25 a.m.

    Lawbreakers

    It's about time law-enforcement agencies targeting these lawbreakers. For far too long they have been thumbing their noses at the law, ignoring any laws that they didn't agree with.

    Forced child marriages, child rape, kidnapping, welfare fraud, child abuse, slavery, false imprisonment, denying constitutionally guaranteed basic freedoms, illegally reassigning women and children to new men, lying to authorities, incest, etc., etc.

  • Live & Let Live
    June 12, 2008 7:26 a.m.

    As long as the FLDS are no longer practicing underage marriage --- they need to be left alone.

    Prosecute those who are involved in underage marriage --- let them "repent from afar" with Warren Jeffs.

  • betty
    June 12, 2008 7:31 a.m.

    i would sure like to know if any of the fathers of these many children, who are receiving benefits of unwed mothers, are being investigated to find out why they are not caring for their own kids. if you cant feed them, dont breed them. social security payments, medicaid payments, food stamp payment, etc. why am i, as a taxpayer, having to pay for all these children who have fathers with enough money in their pockets to pay off the church every month and make jeffs a wealthy man.

  • Southern Utah Resident
    June 12, 2008 7:39 a.m.

    This is NOTHING but smoke and mirrors by Mark Shurtleff to give the appearance that he's doing something during an election year. Do we really have a more two-faced politician in our state? It was just a month ago that he held a meeting with 300 FLDS in St. George and assured them that he wasn't going to come after them.

  • Re: a visitor
    June 12, 2008 7:58 a.m.

    "Its unbelievable that a government agency is targeting a specific religion."

    The government isn't targeting a specific religion, goverment is targeting the illegal practices of a group of people who have decided that they are above the law and can do whatever they please, or are told to do by their "prophet," whether it's legal or not.

    Hiding behind the excuse that this is simply what we believe doesn't make it right.

    If we start allowing personal religious beliefs to trump the law, we might as well abolish all laws, because all anyone would have to do to get away with breaking any law would be to start their own religion and then declare that they were no longer going to follow a certain law because it violated their religious beliefs.

  • Re: betty
    June 12, 2008 8:09 a.m.

    Trust me, I'm no fan of people who suck the welfare system. However, being on welfare isn't against the law, nor is it any reason to target a religion. If you want to make welfare illegal then go about it legally; going after the FLDS because they're on welfare is wrong.

    PS Did you know the YFZ was not on welfare? I had thought they were until I actually did some research...

  • Bruce
    June 12, 2008 8:14 a.m.

    It's so petty to target a peaceful group to pull public attention from problems that really should be being addressed like illegal immigration, drugs, and secular violence.
    The problem is that they are running out of cheap buzzwords like "compound" and "child abuse".

    I know, maybe they could start calling them a "terrorist organization" or a "hate group".

    The problem authorities have is there is no "fear" of the FLDS. If they can somehow generate some "fear", then they can throw millions at the nonexistant problem while the masses cheer.

  • Barny
    June 12, 2008 8:15 a.m.

    I wounder when those of the Islamic faith start to practice polygamy in the US if they will be prosecuted?

  • It's the right thing to do
    June 12, 2008 8:17 a.m.

    I agree with leelee (above). While we cannot condone what the state authorities and CPS did, that does not nulify the underlying issues within the FLDS. Give it time - let the authorities "work together" in completing their investigation and bring to justice those who have committed real and veifiable crimes.

  • James J
    June 12, 2008 8:18 a.m.

    I think as long as they are doing what they do with adult women, who are we to say they are wrong?? Betty, your right why are we paying for these peoples children? Oh yeah, America is about helping the poor. If you look at it, a lot more people who are not FLDS receive food stamps and welfare. Lets not single these people out because they have different views then some of us! Seems like LDS people in Utah have such a hard time accepting people that are different.
    PS You want to get mad about something, Ask your stake president how much welfare he is giving out in his stake, the number is astounding!! And this is our tithing money!!!

  • I agree with "watching"
    June 12, 2008 8:20 a.m.

    And it's not about targeting a "specific religion" it's about targeting specific crimes! It's about time!

  • Re: Barny
    June 12, 2008 8:40 a.m.

    In answer to your question, the conservative columnist Mark Steyn noted that if it's stump-toothed old white guys marrying teenage girls, then that's disgusting and needs to be stamped out.

    If it's Muslim men importing child brides and having them circumcised, well then that's "celebrating diversity".

  • AJ
    June 12, 2008 8:44 a.m.

    @Southern Utah Resident:

    The meeting from a month ago was of other Mormon Polygamists and to my knowledge the FLDS was not represented there. What I saw reported on it was a promise not to go after polygamy and to try and get the status reduced to a misdemeanor (?) instead of a felony. His promise was only for the crime of polygamy itself. Child abusers, etc will still be prosecuted where found.

  • Good can come from bad
    June 12, 2008 8:44 a.m.

    The FLDS deserve an apology for what happened in Texas and the fact that the Utah attorney general held their coats while they were doing the act.

    The FLDS owe an apology to all their young men they kicked out to make room for polygamy.

    Perhaps this bad that Texas did will have a good effect. The FLDS will be forced to take parenting classes that will teach them to finally become decent parents.

  • AdamDiahman
    June 12, 2008 8:46 a.m.

    The factions should return to Adam-ondi-Ahman

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 8:47 a.m.

    It has long been established that the best defense is always a good offense. Sheriff Shurtleff is using this as his defense against what is surely coming his way.

  • This says it all
    June 12, 2008 8:47 a.m.

    "Beyond the marriages, authorities have conducted probes into financial crimes and child abuse. Those investigations have been stymied by a lack of hard evidence or witnesses willing to step forward."

    In other words, the lurid exaggerations of former polygamist women -- some of whom have significant personal and financial motives to stretch the truth -- are turning out to be less than factual.

    And after having seen how the Texas CPS treated the victims of polygamy, it's not surprising many polygamist wives would not want to testify against their husbands.

    Many have concluded it's better to be a polygamist wife and live with your children than a state's witness who can only see your kids when the courts allow it.

  • Self-sufficient Delusion
    June 12, 2008 8:49 a.m.

    Welfare fraud is a natural consequence for most polygamists. It is simply IMPOSSIBLE for the vast majority of men to support 3 or more wives and dozens of children without government assistance.

    Warren Jeffs justified the FLDS reliance on government assistance -- food stamps, medicaid, etc. -- by teaching the practice of "Bleeding the Beast." In other words, the so-called, evil outsiders needed to be punished by god (that is, the FLDS) taking as much from the beast (that is, the rest of us evil, tax-payers) as possible.

    The FLDS have argued that people living at the YFZ ranch were self-sufficient because they weren't living on welfare. Maybe not directly, but they refuse to reveal where the money and resources to purchase and build the ranch came from.

    The answer, of course, is that ALL of the money and resources came from the FLDS who were living in Hildale and Colorado City, where the vast majority of FLDS were heavily dependent on welfare.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 8:48 a.m.

    anon, 6:01am: "So, what are they targeting? Perhaps, that these groups actually seem to value their children and don't throw them away?"

    you're kidding me, right? doesn't everyone by now know about the lost boys? and the systematic belittling of women-- you might as well say that they're throwing those girl's lives away too.

  • California Andy
    June 12, 2008 8:53 a.m.

    From reading these comments, you can tell which are written by sick, twisted women. Rape! Incest! Malnutrition! Polygamy! Food stamps! And on and on. Yet, to this moment, has any FLDS member (Other than Jeffs, and I am beginning to wonder about that) of the FLDS church been convicted of ANYTHING? And of course, old "Harry the Red" Reid, who has recently seen the light and joined the LDS Church (Reason enough for other LDS to get out!)has to get his warped $0.02 into the entire mess. With him in there, you can bet there will be another Harry the Red debacle like the mess he caused attempting to shut down a well-known talk show host.

    Ruby Ridge, Waco, and now FLDS. Facism is rampant in this nation.

    And one writer is correct. When the Islmao-terrorists start moving in, you can bet the same whinnying naysaying creeps will be groveling, complimenting them on how well they take care of their women who would otherwise be destitute, excepting for their polygamous beliefs. Yep. Wait and see.

  • COSMO
    June 12, 2008 9:00 a.m.

    I can see that Betty still has not connected with the fact,that the FLDS were not recieving any state
    assistance. When one is blinded by hatred, one is incapable of seeing anything.

    Betty, you should get yourself a nice SS uniform!

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 8:59 a.m.

    I wonder if the Federal Attorney has ever heard of the Mann Act.

  • Prophet
    June 12, 2008 9:00 a.m.

    The outside world seems to forget that Warren Jeffs is a prophet. What he says will benefit us all.

  • SLC gal
    June 12, 2008 9:03 a.m.

    What the FLDS need to do is quit hiding. I belive the fact they are so off to themselves was what started this issue in the first place. It's their closed environment that allowed so much garbage to spread.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 9:06 a.m.

    What comic book or gossip tabloid have you people been reading? "Re: What are the targeting" came up with a slew of allegations that have LONG since been proven false but some recalcitrants insist on repeating them incessantly. Y'all just make yourselves look stupid when you do that. "leelee" claims the kids "live in poverty and are malnourished". Where the H*LL did THAT come from? None of the kids I have seen look even remotely malnourished. On the contrary, they look healthier than a majority of American kids. It has long ben established that NONE of the families on the ranch were on welfare but you people just will NOT give it up. Some of the older adults are on Social Security but I'm sure the only crime there is the amount of the checks they worked all of their lives to earn. Shurtleff is going to wish he had left well enough alone. He and the rest of you need to leave these people alone and let them get on with their lives. Hold them accountable like everyone else and stop singling them out and running roughshod over their rights.

  • re: James J
    June 12, 2008 9:09 a.m.

    James, the Stake President doesn't have control of the "welfare" funds of his Stake. He has general oversite and provides guidance to his bishops, but has no direct authority; nor does he have authority to dispense funds - that authority rests solely with the bishops. And, welfare funds are drawn from Fast Offerings which is a separate donation made by the members. Welfare assistance is not provided from your tithing donations.

    Finally, as you may be aware, the Church's assistencee is not met to be a permanent and/or long-term program - it is intended to be for short-term, temporary needs.

    Just thought you'd like to know.

  • Re: James J
    June 12, 2008 9:10 a.m.

    "If you look at it, a lot more people who are not FLDS receive food stamps and welfare."

    Maybe you could explain how your opinion differs so much from the actual numbers:

    33 percent of the residents of Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona, whose inhabitants are predominantly FLDS members, are using food stamps to feed their families, compared to 6.7 percent of Arizona inhabitants and 4.7 percent of Utah inhabitants outside of these areas.

    33% FLDS is 5 to 7 times HIGHER than 6.7% or 4.7%

  • re: CA Andy
    June 12, 2008 9:21 a.m.

    yeah, i guess we should all be in the kitchen, barefoot and pregnant if you had your way, huh?

  • I find it interesting...
    June 12, 2008 9:24 a.m.

    that the first three comments on all of these stories are always pro-FLDS, it is like there is a couple of people that are just waiting for the stories to post and start out the comments. As to one persons comment about freedom of religion, yes that is true, but with any freedom, if you do the crime, you do the time.

  • R: Bruce
    June 12, 2008 9:29 a.m.

    "maybe they can start calling them a "terrorist organization."

    Did you know that Washington County used Homeland Security money to fund the wages of an officer hired to drive Hildale streets. The officer herassed the people and stopped drivers when he realized they were young girls. Then when an investigation came out at the purgitory facility where he worked, all of the sudden he was transfered. (????)

    If you talked to most the officers that have had to go out there and patrol, they say it is the most boring route because NOTHING happens.

  • Anonymous LDS
    June 12, 2008 9:32 a.m.

    To James J,
    Maybe you don't know what you are talking about and stirring up madness about. The stake president doesn't give out welfare he supervises it. The Bishop and the Relief Society president gives out welfare and it is not our "tithing money" but out of our fast offerings. Realize that the "welfare" is subsisting those in need not necessarily LDS in the Bishop's area. If the Bishop doesn't have enough funds then the monies are pooled together in the stake and disbursed to the needy. If there is an excess of funds then they are sent into the Church to help other needy families in other areas. The Bishop also distributes, through the Bishops storehouse, food and other commodities to the less fortunate in his area. All this comes from the LDS Church's welfare department which sends thousands of TONS of commodities to earthquake, flood, hurricane victims throughout the world. Now don't you as an LDS member feel a little more PROUD for helping out the less fortunate!! Don't get MAD just get in and HELP!

  • annie
    June 12, 2008 9:32 a.m.

    what is worse, a man marrying two women or a man marrying another man?
    Anyone who does not uphold marriage between a man and woman, as God's law at this time, has no right to persecute anyone.

  • Johhny Utah #9
    June 12, 2008 9:38 a.m.

    By reading these posts, it's seems the FLDS apologists have forgotten that these people are breaking the law. Some have posted that "the very name of the headline states its unconstitutional". Well, the government is also targeting "Al Qaeda" does that mean all of them have committed crimes against America? No they haven't...yet. And the same is true of the FLDS people. By in large, as a group they are committing crimes and and should be prosecuted. I don't really care if you want to live a polyamyst lifestyle, just don't forcibly "marry" and rape underaged girls. And guess what, when your "religion" is well known for arrainged "marriages" of underaged girls, you're going to get "targeted". What is unconstitutional about investigated a group who regularly commits statutory rape? Nothing.

  • re: Prophet
    June 12, 2008 9:40 a.m.

    I, for one, don't care what your "prophet" says. he is not an honorable man, and from what I've learned of him, don't think anything he says would benefit anyone, except maybe the men who follow him wanting blind power over their families.

  • Dave
    June 12, 2008 9:45 a.m.

    I guess this proves why our smartest kids don't go into law enforcement.

    Can someone let these geniuses know that polygamists don't pose a public threat?

  • prophet? yea right
    June 12, 2008 9:47 a.m.

    Warren Jeffs is no prophet. well maybe a false prophet. He is a sick man who has now admitted that he is not the prophet. The outside world has not forgotten anything. Warren is not, and has never been a prophet.

  • Astonished
    June 12, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    hmmm ... this sounds a lot like when Hitler targeted the jewish people and used the media and public forum to brain wash Germany into believing what he was doing was good for the entire country.
    Once you start to infringe on the laws of one group it opens the door to take rights away from the entire whole. If in fact a certain "family" is committing crimes against a specific child then absolutely should that child be removed from the home whether it be an FLDS home or a "normal" home (whatever that might be).
    I am from a polygamous family (not FLDS). My father never pushed marriage on me, I graduated from college and I am currently in grad school, I am not married with ten kids as most Utahns are at 25, and I come from a LOVING environment that I wouldn't change for the world. My family also supports itself on $300,000+ annual income ... so welfare fraud?? Please, at least get your facts straight if you choose to make an argument. Give away your freedoms and you give away what our country was founded on.

  • Re: This says it all
    June 12, 2008 9:53 a.m.

    "In other words, the lurid exaggerations of former polygamist women -- some of whom have significant personal and financial motives to stretch the truth -- are turning out to be less than factual."

    Organized crime families are involved in murders, extortion, bribery, money laundering, prostitution, drugs, gambling, etc., etc.

    There are clear indications of what the FLDS are doing. Just because their crimes are difficult to prove because of a lack of hard evidence or witnesses willing to step forward doesn't mean they aren't breaking the law.

    Too many ex-FLDS have related the same types of experiences involving child abuse, kidnapping, welfare fraud, and other crimes to simply dismiss their testimony as nothing more than "exaggeration."

  • COSMO
    June 12, 2008 9:55 a.m.

    Re: SLC gal;With respect how well is your/our open environment doing? I would give you some details based upon todays headlines, but they would have to be censored.

  • az tax payer
    June 12, 2008 10:08 a.m.

    These vile old men are abusing the children, women, boys and the states of CO,ID,TX UT,NV AND AZ TAXPAYERS ALL UNDER THE FAKE EXCUSE OF FREEDOM OF RELIGION. The rest of the country is laughing at all these stupid law enforcement agencies who can't even convict this gang of really dumb uneducated CRIMINALS ......Shame shame on all the states and especially UT AZ and TX.

  • Agree
    June 12, 2008 10:26 a.m.

    Hear-Here-LeeLee-I agree!

  • Mike
    June 12, 2008 10:31 a.m.

    With all the pro-flds comments and time spent on here, sounds like there are a bunch of kids being neglected and/or not being cared for.

  • Re: Astonished
    June 12, 2008 10:39 a.m.

    Thanks for sharing! I'm amazed how many people are still clainming "child abuse", "welfare fraud", "slavery" with no proof. It will be a dark day when we throw people in jail because of the suspicious hearts of others.
    It seems hating others is unfortunately the "communion of our race", but being charitable in thought and deed is indeed rare.

  • PARENTAL RIGHTS
    June 12, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    ==

    PARODY:
    PARENTS' RIGHTS TRUMP [ANTI] POLYGAMY


    ORGINAL:
    PARENTS' RIGHTS TRUMP POLYGAMY

    SOURCE: YAHOO NEWS

  • Lost lives
    June 12, 2008 10:42 a.m.

    Anyone who has lived around or been around FLDS, and then decides to leave their cult, knows darn well how evil theses FLDS men are.

  • betty
    June 12, 2008 11:34 a.m.

    many articles in this newspaper have stated that the polygamist compounds in utah and arizona have many women who are committing welfare fraud by claiming they are single mothers to the government, but living a life of being so called wives to men who should be supporting these children. if the men can give a percentage of their income to to the prophet jeffs, they can give that money to support their children.
    and for the old men on social security, they keep having more and more children on their younger and younger wives, and we are paying social security for the children of supposedly old people.
    stop having kids you cannot support and the taxpayers will stop complaining about you.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 11:52 a.m.

    We should either prosecute polygamy or repeal the laws against it. If we are not going to prosecute a crime we should take it off the books. If we have it on the books we should prosecute it.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 11:55 a.m.

    To re Betty,
    If the mothers claim they do not know the whereabouts of their husbands when they do. If they claim to be single mothers when their husbands are very present. If there husbands work long hours for a company that does not pay them because they known the state will give the people money in the long run, than there is fraud.
    Lieing on a welfare application is a crime and can and should be prosecuted.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 11:58 a.m.

    To Barny:
    Muslims are already practicing polygamy in the United States. Just hunt down the New York Times article from last year about all the polygamous Muslims in New York City. google the issue and you will find references to Muslims practicing polygamy elsewhere in the United States. The day of Muslim polygamists in the United States is now.

  • Janet
    June 12, 2008 11:59 a.m.

    First they came for the communists, and I did not speak out--because I was not a communist;
    Then they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out--because I was not a socialist;
    Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out--because I was not a trade unionist;
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--because I was not a Jew;
    Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak out for me.
    by Rev. Martin Niemoller, 1945

    Live and let live is correct.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:00 p.m.

    To James J:
    Polygamy as practiced by the FLDS is an abomination. Jacob stated that the Lord delights in the chastity of women, and the FLDS have no authorization from the Lord, are trying to justify themselves by misunderstanding the past and stand condemned in his sight.

  • common sense
    June 12, 2008 11:59 a.m.

    At Least desert news doesnt show bias in its reporting, which is very good

  • Deaf Ears
    June 12, 2008 12:01 p.m.

    Summit targets FLDS? More warspeak from our government? War on Terror? War on poverty? War on drugs? War on education? War on Native Americans? Now its war on the FLDS? War cannot be waged on things or ideas, only on people! Is genocide next on the government menu? No matter how repugnant you may think the FLDS ideology is, if we allow government to continue the persecution of this group we are approving the downfall of our nation and opening the door to more government oppression.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:05 p.m.

    Why do Utahs tolerate an attorney general who promises he will not try to enforce the law? When will the people of the state wake up and elect someone who honors his oath to uphold the state constitution, which specifically bans plural marriage?
    I used to defend Shertleff, however I have realized that his rationalistic appraoch is based on assuming the law is only what he says it is. The law is what it is written as, and if he will not enforce it, he should be replaced.
    If the residents of Utah are really OK with large polygamous groups in their midst they should repeal the anti-polygamy law. Until that time the state should prosecute those who willfully and knowingly break the law.

  • Kevin
    June 12, 2008 12:07 p.m.

    For all polygamy supporters--GET A LIFE AND ONE WIFE! Treat people the way you would have them treat you. Try respecting women other then just yourselves. Try to be a real person and quit abusing.

  • In Utah
    June 12, 2008 12:09 p.m.

    To many people sticking their nose in others business
    I mind my own business, I do not make up stories and hurt someone
    Utah is a corrupt state
    Gossiping about new comers

  • Freedom Mann
    June 12, 2008 12:11 p.m.

    To "Self-sufficient Delusion"

    You said:
    "The FLDS have argued that people living at the YFZ ranch were self-sufficient because they weren't living on welfare. Maybe not directly, but they refuse to reveal where the money and resources to purchase and build the ranch came from.

    "The answer, of course, is that ALL of the money and resources came from the FLDS who were living in Hildale and Colorado City, where the vast majority of FLDS were heavily dependent on welfare."

    The money to purchase the land for the YFZ ranch has come from an elderly FLDS member who has made his FORTUNE in the manufacture of airplane parts; he even has a Federal Defense contract. (Note: Now that I've said this, people like "Self-sufficient Delusion" will do everything in their power to make sure he loses it.)

    I'm an Atheistic Jewish man living in New York City, yet I know this to be a fact. How come YOU don't know where the money came from? Or maybe you just don't WANT to know where it came from . . .

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:10 p.m.

    To Andy,
    If you do a study you will find that several other FLDS people besides Jeffs have been convicted. Utah has gotten other convictions on charges of statutory rape. The mismanagement of funds was so bad that most of their fiscal institutions have been taken over by the government.
    On the welfare fraud issue. How exactly do you prove welfare fraud. Is a lady going to come forward and say "I told the government that I did not know where my husband was, but that was a lie". On the other hand, even in Utah what percentage of the state budget goes to support the FLDS? Somehow I think taxes are spent much more on running schools, building roads, building Universities and so on than on supporting the FLDS.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:15 p.m.

    To Andy:
    Reid has been a member of the LDS Church since long before he was elected to the senate. Reid joined the church in about 1960, which is before the vast majority of church members joined. If his joining the church is recent, than I wonder what makes someone a long time member.

  • Re: Deaf Ears
    June 12, 2008 12:15 p.m.


    So whats makes you such an expert? However, I do not agree with your BS. Please try again.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 12:20 p.m.

    It is about time that law enforcement goes after these cults that commit welfare fraud and molest underage girls. They are pure evil.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:24 p.m.

    James J,
    If you do not want to contribute to helping the sick and the poor, no one is forcing you to. As far as I know, these efforts are mainly run by fast offerings as has been said above.
    However, I do know that many stakes exceed their fast offering intake in expenditure, and some tithing funds may be used to help the poor, or at least to keep bishop's storehouses and other operational parts of the welfare program running.
    Then there is the horrendous amount of money spent by the Perpetual Education Fund. Can you believe it, they are actually paying for poor people to get educated. OK, that is just such a stupid gripe, that I can't continue it. It is totally ridiculous.
    If you do not want to pay fast offerings, tithing or anything else to the church you are free to do so. No one will throw you in jail.
    Taxes are a different story. You will go to jail for not paying them. Anyway, the real question is why should the state provide foodstamps to families where the father makes a good living?

  • It is time
    June 12, 2008 12:23 p.m.

    Put a fence around Utah
    The real criminals are in charge
    The Judicial Mis Conduct commission refuses to act

  • Just thinking
    June 12, 2008 12:25 p.m.

    --"Too many ex-FLDS have related the same types of experiences involving child abuse, kidnapping, welfare fraud, and other crimes to simply dismiss their testimony as nothing more than "exaggeration.""--

    Yes, all three of them, Flora Caroline and the Wall girl have said it so many times and are making so much money off of it, it MUST be true.

    Flora sounds like she was abused, but Caroline and the Wall girl dont come across as abused, Just very angry. We know how bitter and angry women can get.

    So 1 abuse victim and 2 angry women have said it so many times that we ignore crime in our neighbor hood and form "special" task forces when we could just walk in and talk to these people. WHY?!

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 12:25 p.m.

    They are the American Taliban. Sex slavery is an evil act. Warren Jeffs is a demonic soul.

  • Re; Janet | 11:59 a.m.
    June 12, 2008 12:25 p.m.

    Maybe if you stopped breaking the law, instead of justifying why the FLDS, and only the FLDS, have a right to break the law with impunity, the government would leave you alone.

    "Live and let live" only applies if you aren't breaking the law.

    The sooner the FLDS learn that, the better.

  • John Lambert
    June 12, 2008 12:29 p.m.

    To re:James J (2nd one),
    Hildale Utah has about 2,000 people, so 33% means that about 670 are getting foodstamps. Utah has 2.6 million people, so about 100,000 people getting foodstamps and such (actually, I think it is higher, but it is a nice round number). This gives us 600 FLDS and 99,400 non-FLDS recieving such assistance in Utah. This means that less than 1% of the welfare expenditures in Utah go to the FLDS. I am not sure what percentage of the Utah budget goes to welfare, but as you see from these figures very little of your tax dollars are going to the FLDS.

  • Re; Freedom Mann
    June 12, 2008 12:31 p.m.

    Dig a little deeper and you'll be able to understand HOW he won the contract and made his fortune using strictly FLDS labor that was grossly under-reported so that the families of the men could continue to collect welfare benefits.

  • Kolobite
    June 12, 2008 12:49 p.m.

    I am not FLDS or LDS but seems strange to me that LDS Prophet hasn't had any revelations since Joseph Smiths's time. Oh, i've heard the rant about: "We don't need any more revelation, we have enough...." Really?? I say impeach and get out of office all those states that just came from that summit. I have no animosity here, just wonder why the LDS did absolutely nothing to come to the aid of their FLDS brothers and sisters? I mean the church, not individual LDS. And , let's not say the FLDS are not mormons, they surely are....Any crimes, i say prosecute, but in re: polygamy, who gives a darn nowadays? I stopped in Motel in Idaho and desk clerk introduced his wife and her "sister" I said: she is your plural wife, don't sweat it...he didn't deny it, only smiled and handed me my key to my room. To person who put down Jeffs, didn't Hinckley say in re: progression on becoming Gods or as man is God once was, he said he wasn't sure of that couplet, it was only a couplet....Mormonism is indeed "progressing" and evolving, trying to fit into mainstream christianity.

  • Grandpa Phil
    June 12, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    Speaking of Flora, y'all need to read the article written by Flora Jessop's guardian, Martha Barlow Jessop, entitled "The Truth About Flora Jessop". It is a real eye opener about why Flora has made the claims she has. She is MUCH less believable than Caroline ever was. I would never listen to an "anti-anything" as a source of information on any subject. if I want an objective answer regarding the beliefs of baptists, Mormans, or FLDS, I will go and ask someone in those faiths, NOT someone who left for whatever reason. No reasonable (or reasoning) person would.

  • Freedom Mann
    June 12, 2008 1:20 p.m.

    Re; Freedom Mann

    Okay, so first we have "where did they get the money for the YFZ ranch." (This was raised by "Self-sufficient Delusion")

    I answered that question and now "Re; Freedom Mann" is here to tell me that the FLDS Airplane parts tycoon who purchased the YFZ ranch made (and continues to make) his fortune all with FLDS "slave labor!"

    If that were so, "Re; Freedom Mann," then the Defense Department could pretty handily yank his contract but that obviously hasn't happened.

    Indeed, anyone with government contracts is often obliged to meet certain obligations towards their laborers.

    Whatever FLDS does, it's somehow ALWAYS WRONG and AWFUL!

  • James J
    June 12, 2008 1:26 p.m.

    To: John Lambert


    John I think you misunderstood what I was saying. One was a response to Betty, and one was a response to another guy saying that more FLDS people are on welfare then anyone else. While, as a percentage he might be correct, as far as numbers go hes not. Betty was saying that just because they are FLDS they shouldnt get welfare. I have no problem paying welfare to people who need it, but I do have a problem with people living off it, or living off the church. This is why I no longer pay tithing or fast offerings. I got sick of working 2 jobs and paying my 10% just to see people say that there are no jobs and sit on their buts, all the time receiving help from the church. One question for you John, What is a good living? I had 9 kids in my family, (typical mormon family) my dad made $70-80 a year and we always went without: food, clothing, cars. So what is a good income? Let me get this out, I'm for helping people who need help, Not to the extent of living off the help though


  • JJ
    June 12, 2008 1:34 p.m.


    The problem isn't so much that the FLDS engages in cult activity. It's that the Mormon cult activity of the FLDS conflicts with the Christian cult mentality that prevails in Texas, and is promulgated by CPS.

    This time the courts in Texas recognized that two wrongs don't make a right.

    There's always next time.

  • Re: Just thinking | 12:25 p.m.
    June 12, 2008 1:41 p.m.

    You missed a few. Here are just a couple:

    At 15, Debbie Palmer became the third wife to Winston Blackmore's father -- a man 42 years her elder. She fled the commune in 1988. She said the B.C. government has evidence in its own birth records that will prove adult men impregnated underage girls.

    "We know of girls as young as 13 involved in trafficking across the border," says Debbie Palmer, who now lives in Saskatchewan. "And some have been exposed to horrifically abusive situations."

    To get an idea of just how complex the family relationships are in Bountiful, consider this. By marrying Ray Blackmore, Debbie became a step-mother to her step-mother and as a result, a step-grandmother to herself and to her sister Jane, who is a year younger than Debbie.

    After Ray Blackmore died, Debbie was reassigned first to 54-year-old Sam Ralston. By the time she left the community, she had had three different husbands and eight children. She was never legally married.

  • Re; Just thinking (2)
    June 12, 2008 1:44 p.m.

    grew up in the FLDS. I know first-hand the abuse that takes place under the ruse of religious freedom. In August of 2006, when Warren Jeffs entered the courtroom most people saw a pathetic image of a man in chains. I saw my former teacher - the man who intimidated us and who eventually became the one to whom we were to declare unquestioning obedience as our Prophet. As I viewed Warren Jeffs in chains I couldnt help but think about the many women and children still bound in psychological chains inside the FLDS. When I thought about his chains, I remembered theirs.

    Kathy Jo Nicholson
    Former FLDS member

  • I want to join
    June 12, 2008 1:55 p.m.

    You all make the FLDS sound like such a wonderful, peace-loving people. I'd like to join..can I visit one of their services and see what it's all about for myself? Do they have any missionaries I can talk to? Seriously, if you have a problem with people's perception of you, just open the doors so everyone can come see the truth...even the "evil" Baptists do that!

  • Re: Freedom Mann (2)
    June 12, 2008 2:06 p.m.

    You obviously don't understand the FLDS culture. They have a communal lifestyle in which all of the property within the community is owned by the community, no private property ownership.

    The FLDS airplane parts "tycoon," was one of them. So how did he make a fortune? Through the labor of other FLDS men, whose families were living on welfare. But the tycoon's fortune was really the FLDS community's fortune.

    Which is one of the reasons a trustee was appointed to oversee the FLDS community property, because FLDS leaders were suspected of mismanaging that trust.

    If you follow the shell game of money going from one shared FLDS pocket to another, you can easily see that welfare money was indirectly used to pay for buying and building the YFZ ranch.

    That's not to say, the FLDS didn't invest a huge amount of sweat equity in building the ranch, but the vast majority of materials and equipment used to build the ranch were provided through funds provided by the FLDS communities in Hildale and Colorado City, through the so-called FLDS tycoon.

  • a visitor
    June 12, 2008 2:11 p.m.

    Maybe we should arrest and detain anyone who seems different than main stream because they "might" have committed a crime? So what if "their crimes are difficult to prove because of a lack of hard evidence?" We could just revoke the USA constitutional protections and assume that they are "obviously guilty" until proven innocent. Sort of like how the laws in Mexico work.

    We also then need a task force to mandate "main stream behavior" so that its easier to determine who the possible criminals are. But don't forget that our country was founded by people who purposely broke laws and resisted those authorities who oppressed us.

  • Re: a visitor | 2:11 p.m.
    June 12, 2008 2:38 p.m.

    Weak strawmen, but there's still plenty of evidence to support further investigations of the FLDS.

  • David M.
    June 12, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    To Re: Freedom Mann (2) 2:06PM

    You are absolutely correct on what you said. Thanks!!


    To the rest of the ignorant lamebrain commenter's who are mostly FLDS. You need to learn what you are talking about before commenting.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 3:00 p.m.

    Wouldn't you promise anything if it meant you could get your children back. Let the children return, let the smoke die down with promises to not abuse and dominate, then, when the coast is clear, return to the same horrific practices which have been prevelent since the beginning of the LDS Church. Then explain it to the children who lives your have ruined and taken away.

  • James J Strang
    June 12, 2008 3:48 p.m.

    We've just witnessed the advent of Nazi Germany right here in America. The judge who ripped the 400+ children from their mother's arms and gave them to he state, should be under investigation and thrown in prison for what she has done. Just one man's opinion.

  • Mel
    June 12, 2008 3:58 p.m.

    I'm sure Merrill Jessop could just step forward and clear all of this up. Oh wait, I forgot, he's in hiding. Coward.

  • wel-unfair
    June 12, 2008 4:18 p.m.

    the towns of Colorado City and Hildale receive the most welfare and pay the least taxes of any towns in their states. its a fact
    plus these fraudulent obtained food stamps are 'spent' at the church owned grocery store..where they get reimbursed =double dipping.
    you are not foolin anyone

    quit taking hand outs you self sufficient FLDS and I'll listen to what you have to say

  • And don't break the law
    June 12, 2008 4:26 p.m.

    FLDS and you won't have complaints! If you don't do anything against the law you will be left alone. It's interesting (and sad) how groups will cry out anything that will help their cause. In this case it's the outcry "freedom of religion" when it is really just wanting to be able to do with women and young girls as they can. And yes, I have also heard about the welfare scam that they have. Religion has nothing to do with these things!
    Sorry, your time is up and our communities won't take it anymore!

  • zxcvbnm
    June 12, 2008 4:32 p.m.


    It seems a bit premature to assume that the "evidence" siezed by Texas in the raid will be admissable in a criminal case.
    "Good faith" of Texas authorities has been suspect since day one and only becomes more suspect as motives and methods of Texas state officials becomes clearer.

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 4:42 p.m.

    What vile old men are married to the young girls, the ones I've heard of that were adults marrying a young girl, was a 19 year old boy and a teenage girl under 18. That is really not a big age difference, yes there is still a mature difference, so that would be an issue. Someone please give facts on how many old men are married to teenage girls, because this is all I hear.

  • lazarus
    June 12, 2008 4:45 p.m.

    Polygamy is a crime against women and children. Statistics show that there are more boys born than girls all through out history. So if the FLDS now will not perform marriages to underage girls, they will not have an abundance of women to continue their lifestyle.

    They could continue to release more of their males into the wilderness to fend for themselves. This would help their situation.

    It is clear that the core values of polygamy within their religion is evil.

    The male hirearchy will bully, reassign wives, and literally scare the heck out of their congregation if they do not sweetly comply with their brand of laws within their society. They can loose their families and children if they cross a line that their men do not like. This keeps them in check.

    I really do wish to pose the question to them...how WILL you continue in your lifestyle? LOOK at your statistics of the births within your compound. There are not enough women to go around!



  • Don't Break USA Laws!!!
    June 12, 2008 4:47 p.m.

    How come when some people break the laws and don't want to follow or live USA laws, suddenly they always want to start blaming law abiding citizens as being Nazis? You people who use this propaganda need to stop breaking USA laws and quit with all the nonsensical idiotic Nazi Germany BS! Perhaps you belong in jail as well. There is no doubt in my mind that FLDS are breaking the USA laws. I have personally known a few of these FLDS deviates.

    Live the laws or go to jail!

  • lazarus
    June 12, 2008 4:56 p.m.

    To anoymous...who just posted. Are you serious?

    The defense team of Warren Jeffs is desperately trying to keep the new evidence from being presented. It involves the spiritual marriage of girls ages 12 to 15.

    There are many others within the compound who have given birth at very young ages...there will be lawsuits to follow for the men of the FLDS. It will be determined by the DNA evidence. They should be shaking in their perverted boots!

  • Anonymous
    June 12, 2008 5:00 p.m.

    Someone said the Sun was not the Sun. Just because they "thought" it was not the Sun, did it make the Sun not the Sun?

  • Nothing
    June 12, 2008 6:28 p.m.

    Big talk.

    These guys aren't going to do nothing. They're only gathered around in a group like atheist in youtube to console themselves while they suck their thumbs. They've lost so much ground in the West Texas case that if you're not blinded by your bias, then you know how much of a liar CPS, TX, and Sheriff David Doran truly are.

    I hope their holding of the hands helped them feel better. So far this has been nothing of a "slam dunk" as George Tenet said of the case for the Iraq War.

  • We have it right in Calif.
    June 12, 2008 6:31 p.m.

    We here in California are more enlightened than the rest of you! The FLDS made one mistake, they went to Texas. Here in California, no problem! Here in California we only have one problem, we are all victims of GWB! There are no absolute truths, no such thing as immoral behavior(who are you to judge anyway?) and only conservative values are not allowed here! Has anyone seen my joint?

  • Its about time
    June 12, 2008 8:02 p.m.

    Finally people are seeing the flds for what they are. Or at least finally commenting on it. It seems that these blogs have been filled with comments from pro fdls.

    I have a question for all of those that keep squawking about the former fdls women (the smart ones) telling lies and also rant on about there being no evidence against the fdls. Where is the evidence that the women who escaped are lying?????

    Where is the evidence that they are NOT commiting welfare fraud????

    I think there is more evidence against them than there is for them.

    CPS had a job to do and unfortunely they weren't able to see it through.

    If the government had sent them to Guantonamo bay, MAYBE your squawking would be justified. Just because you say the words "violation of civil rights" doesn't make it true.

    Go to the middle east & see what real violations of civil rights are. Or better yet be a young fdls girl & you would know what a true violation is.

  • From the Creek
    June 12, 2008 9:57 p.m.

    "Where is the evidence that they are NOT commiting welfare fraud????

    I think there is more evidence against them than there is for them."

    Guilty until proven innocent, then? Where's the evidence YOU'RE not committing welfare fraud????
    Try this for comparison:

    My mother's friend's son's cousin told me that his uncle said he heard from a "reliable" source that you were abusing your children. Now, prove to me it wasn't true. I won't believe otherwise until you offer me solid proof. We'll need to X-ray all your children, give them psychological examinations, and take them to an unknown location for "questioning."

    We can't assume guilt just because someone is a member of an unpopular religion. The unpopular and minorities have the same protections and rights as any other U.S. citizen. Saying that they're all law breakers doesn't make it true.

  • John MacArthur
    June 12, 2008 10:51 p.m.

    The rumor that the FLDS in Texas are on welfare is absolutely wrong, 100%.

    These are completely self-sufficient people. It seems ignorant people are willing to believe all the lies the government claimed about these people, including hoax phone calls, broken bone abuse, 50 year olds raping 16 year olds, abused boys, a sex bed in their temple, "bleeding the beast or living of welfare," killing off any deformed children, and 31 underage pregnancies - every one of them has proven to be false now - 100% lies!

    Here are the recent findings of the Texas special Senate Finance Committee by head of Social Services himself, Albert Hawkins; Child Protective Services falls under Social Services, so it's in his best interest to try to claim the FLDS have received public assistance, even if minimal, but he says they have received none:

    "Albert Hawkins, the state's executive commissioner for health and human services, said it was unclear whether members of the sect have private insurance. He also said that officials have found no evidence that anyone from the sect is receiving any sort of public assistance."

    Stop ignorantly believing the all the lies fed to the media by Texas!

  • Re: Welfare in Texas
    June 12, 2008 11:30 p.m.

    "The rumor that the FLDS in Texas are on welfare is absolutely wrong, 100%"

    The FLDS in Texas are part of one big happy family, tied hip and shoulders with the rest of the family back in Hildale and Colorado City. Many of the men have wives in Utah/Arizona and Texas.

    Cut off all of the funds from the families left back in Utah and Arizona who ARE living on welfare and we'll see just how self-sufficient these good fathers are at supporting all of their families without welfare.

  • Lazarus
    June 12, 2008 11:43 p.m.

    I also am very tired of the pro FLDS claims. Some are here on this board. I've said till I am blue in the face! There are not enough women for these men to continue in their lifestyle! There are more men born into this world than women. Statistics prove it.

    Because of this, it causes two things, get rid of the excess boys, and or men, and marry the women at increasingly younger ages, thus robbing from future generations of women.

    Their group cannot help but eventually promote an evil lifestyle. Those young children are destined to suffer abuse in one way or another.

  • thinkdeeper
    June 13, 2008 12:08 a.m.

    50% boys and 50% girls born, has nothing to do with marriage. Marriage, and the ability to succeed in it, depends not solely on ones gender but on their ability to put the needs of their family before their own desires. Noone can dispute that women are more able to be caring and selfless than are men and at a younger age. Young men especially in this day and age are very self absorbed. A very large segment of our young male population are making babies with girls whom they never intend to marry, or protect, or even provide for. In the FLDS society this would never be a problem. Polygamy is the answer and actually gives women more choices not less.

  • ken rhoades
    June 13, 2008 3:37 a.m.

    I think law enforcment should go to compton Ca.and work on gangs if you want to fight crime. leave the flds alone.

  • To "From the Creek"
    June 13, 2008 7:30 a.m.

    Good for those that the "welfare problem" doesn't apply, however, I know 100% that a large amount of these people have been involved in it since I used to work in it.

  • what ever
    June 13, 2008 8:59 a.m.

    yeah, the FLDS paid the 400 thousand property tax in texas by selling cheese...hahahahaha

    how bout paying property tax in Colorado City and Hildale

    self sufficient????

    you can't fool the people that live in southern Utah

  • zxcvbnm
    June 13, 2008 12:35 p.m.


    Ok....all yall frieking out about the FLDS on the welfare rolls in Utah and Arizona don't pay if they can't show paternity like everyplace else...if the men have no income they don't pay ....just like everyplace else.
    I haven't seen a food stamp card yet that will allow someone to swipe it at the court house to pay property taxes.
    Everyone that is so concerned about where these people get their money can put their financial business on a public web site and bare your soul just to be above reproach.......until then get as good an accountant as FLDS has......Exxon and Ford have a few that might work if you can afford the bill.

  • From Saskabush
    June 13, 2008 2:11 p.m.

    To re: Just Thinking 12:25 p.m.

    Get your facts straight before you blather on like a pretended expert.

    FIRST: Who the heck is Sam Ralston that Deb was supposedly reassigned to? He might have been one of Deb's after encounters, but after Ray Blackmore, she willingly married a man by the name of Charles.

    SECOND: Deb's third go 'round was with a guy named Marv.

    THIRDLY: She participated in all three of her marriages WILLINGLY. VERY WILLINGLY. BEGGING TO BE MARRIED...WILLINGLY!

    Now do you realize how insanely moronic and unbelievable the rest of your comments are when you can't even get names straight?

    It was only after her partially successful attempt at burning down her own house while her children were asleep, that she conveniently found a reason to "escape" so that she wouldn't be charged with arson and attempted murder. This is not conjecture; Deb has openly confessed to setting the fire and describing in great detail her plans in doing so. But she was never charged because of her "victim" mentality. Gag!

    Sounds like you and the lady share a lot of psychological similarities: a warped sense of reality.

  • jt
    June 13, 2008 3:12 p.m.

    thank God they are kicking some of the young men out of the FLDS group. now they won't become perverts like their elders.

  • Anonymous
    June 14, 2008 9:44 p.m.

    To FLDS commentors,
    Just a thought, if you would quit posting here you could save yourselves a lot of nonesense from the replies of fools. It's a waste of time to try to educate religious bigots.

  • mypc
    June 15, 2008 3:13 p.m.

    It is so nice to see the boards here are not changing. As for the meetng of minds ...the whole mess is just a game and the politicians are afraid to get off the fence and lose their jobs. In reaity most seem not to care and wish to sweep flds under a rug..or in the closet.