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FLDS win big victory

Impact: Hearings halt as state regroups

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  • patriot
    May 23, 2008 12:24 a.m.

    The lawsuits to recover damages need to start now. In addition, the bureaucrats who perpetrated this atrocity need to be prosecuted, and held personally liable. The people of the United States are disgusting for not making more of an outcry on this. I probably wouldn't like most members of the FLDS, but that doesn't make these government atrocities any easier to stomach.

  • Fumarase deficiency
    May 23, 2008 12:27 a.m.

    FLDS diagnosed cases of this rare genetic disorder which can severely restrict the life expectancy of children have not featured in the antics at the ranch. Texas now has responsibility for hundreds of children affected by the Jessop/Barlow descendants genetic carriers of the condition. Let us hope those children have had genetic screening and that plans for them take this into account.
    Has anyone detected any media or legal attention to the phenomenal rise in diagnosed cases in FLDS communities in several states and isn't this an important factor in the Jessop families? The genetic combinations of sexual relationships between carriers in the small communities of FLDS in several states account for the rise in prevalence of an extremely rare condition elsewhere. I think we should be told about this and surely this is a factor to be evaluated in plans for children affected.

  • New Mexico
    May 23, 2008 12:33 a.m.

    The newest court ruling is all well and good, but I wonder how the court, attorneys, and general public will feel the next time a 14 year old girl is forced to marry some fat old slob three times her age or some poor young man is forced to leave home because the fat old slob can't handle the competition......all in the name of the Lord?? There has to be a better solution than to continue allowing these men to control every aspect of their wive's and children's lives. Perpetual servitude is what is happening under the guise of religion.

  • Gramma
    May 23, 2008 12:47 a.m.

    Finally, some semblance of justice. I don't trust those scum of the earth CPS, though, it would be just like them to oppose the Court of Appeal. They are ruthless baby stealers, and will stop at nothing, having no shame, and no heart.

    The outrage is growing, though, and this is only the beginning of the movement against CPS. They must, as every good citizen now realizes, be abolished forever.

  • EX FLDS M COOKE
    May 23, 2008 1:06 a.m.

    TEXAS....PROVE THE ABUSE or give back the children. I came from the FLDS and being judgemental of others, strick blind obedience,lack of trusting your own conscience and arranged marriages are all abuse to me, but they are not breaking the law. Prove that there are underage girls pregnant or being abused or admit you took the kids away based on a rumor. I had my children taken away from me on a rumor started and circulated by some of the FLDS and got mine back after it was shown that I was innocent. Yes it hurts to have your loved ones turn against you just because of a difference in belief. Many of the closed minded teachings are found all over the world and so are pregnant teenagers. Prove they have underage mothers that are forced to have sex or treat them like you do everyone else. It is not illegal to look different, or teach children to be self righteous. I want my childeren to believe they are good and trust in a God that allowes us to be individuals and still love unconditionally those that have chosen to be different. Prove illegal actions or give up the fight

  • Deaf Ears
    May 23, 2008 1:07 a.m.

    Texas court did the LAWFUL thing for these people. The Justices could not rule otherwise because the Texas CPS engaged in flagrant violations of the Constitution and due process. Of course its not over by any means but at least puts a stop to the CPS steamrolling machine. Its disgusting by any standard. Over 450 kids from FLDS ranch kidnapped and tortured by Texas authorities. Yes, I believe tearing a child from its mothers arms and sending him/her to a stranger home is torture for the child and the mother. Just think of the harm done to families by these sicko state agencies. Multiply that thousands of times around the country. It's time for all the states to rethink their so called mandate to "protect the children" and get out of the business of social engineering and morality policing. Family services? More like family dis-services in Texas.

  • Joe
    May 23, 2008 1:55 a.m.

    Texas CPS will not go down without a fight. Hopefully this sorry mess will get resolved and the children will be returned before too much time passes.

    What would really be great is if the FLDS took a few lessons to heart, specifically:

    Not all the world is against you; it is possible to find common ground with people who have different points of view.

    When law enforcement investigates, tell the whole truth. When stories change and facts are omitted, law enforcement gets suspicious, leading to further investigation and trouble.

    Continuing to engage in plural marriage may be tolerated by society; allowing child bride marriages will not be tolerated. Those who promote or conduct these marriages will continue to be hounded by the law. Continue to engage in this activity at your own peril.

    Finally, the lifestyle promoted by Hollywood and the godless is not universal. There are a lot of people who live moral lives, avoid premarital sex, drugs, think of abortion as an abomination, and try to follow the Savior in word and deed. Passing universal judgment is no more fair than all FLDS being lumped together, is it?

    Come visit us sometime; you might be pleasantly surprised.

  • marty
    May 23, 2008 3:17 a.m.

    Funny how the ACLU has not weighed in on this civil liberties issue. The FLDS belief system doesn't fit with thier liberal, one world view. But one cannot argue that this is every bit as bad as state sanctioned (dare I say, mandated) disruption of families on a par with the 19th century slave trade. And to think that I was at one time proud to call myself a Texan.

  • MassTransplant
    May 23, 2008 3:34 a.m.

    A story from the civil rights movement, during a U.S. Senate hearing:

    The Alabama sheriff announced that he arrested the man because he might commit a crime.

    Bobby Kennedy suggested, sharply, that the sheriff should go back and read the Constitution.


    A Texas/YFZ tie-in:

    The CPS and local judges in this case probably ought to do the same, for they have saved the children from a crime that might be committed.


    For all of us:

    We should now, right now, turn ourselves in, confess that we could very well, in the future, commit a crime.

    Possibly, we may have to go to Texas or some location close by to get arrested for that possible future crime, or we would end up in a padded cell instead.

    edited update

  • north carolina
    May 23, 2008 3:54 a.m.

    Praise God.Now those children can go home.The ranch needs to incorporate as a town with each household having it's own address so this can never,ever happen again.

  • On fumerase Deficiency
    May 23, 2008 5:04 a.m.

    The Amish also have various disorders related to inbreeding, but you might also note that AUTISM is virtually unheard of in that society. While I appreciate the bad, you must also accept and not ignore the good that comes from inbreeding. Should we "evaluate" blacks and Mediterraneans because they carry sickle cell or Jews because of Tay-Sachs? Should we "evaluate" every person blond and blue eyed since those are also recessiveness issues AND a by-product of inbreeding? The issue you have is the "ew" factor from current societal standards which STILL fluctuate as can be seen with the allowance of first cousin marriages in the U.S. and NO incest laws on the books in France. The biggest problem that you are ignoring though is that a third cousin or beyond might marry in the FLDS AND still produce an affected child. This would be quite legal, yet still produce the problem. The difference though is that the FLDS would not abort, which likely impacts why they have so many affected children are born and raised in that compound. Aborted fetuses aren't counted in the fumerase numbers.

  • JND
    May 23, 2008 5:38 a.m.

    Ha! Celebrate now! Who still has the kids? Too bad for you, polygamy lovers.

  • Sandee
    May 23, 2008 5:42 a.m.

    The question I've always had regarding this case is "Who will be next?". If this seizure of children en masse was allowed to stand,it would set a very dangerous precedent. What religion's teachings would come into question next? There are already movements out there claiming that certain teachings in many Christian denominations (such as homo-sexuality being morally wrong,etc) are "dangerous". How far would they go in "protecting" children?

  • FromTexas
    May 23, 2008 5:47 a.m.

    At first I thought that the FLDS was guilty of all the things accused of. While I don't condone the practices of FLDS, especially the "child brides", I feel CPS was wrong again, as usual. CPS accused my friends of child abuse when their daughter broke her leg. Claimed it was done by her dad because of the nature of the break. Kids were taken away for 2 weeks before the mother got 50% custody back... her husband had to move out, and the other 50% was given to her dad. Father was finally allowed to move back home after a year, and after the judge then threw out the case! I think CPS oversteps their bounds a lot, even though some cases are liget, this was not. Yeah for FLDS!

  • Kate
    May 23, 2008 5:51 a.m.

    Where are all the fathers? Wouldn't they want their kids back too? Or their wives for that matter?

  • Buck
    May 23, 2008 6:11 a.m.

    The real lawbreakers and criminals are the CPS and the sheriffs who kidnapped children at gunpoint based on an easily verifyed pack of lies.
    The CPS went on to hold adult mothers against their will, to violate the constitution by taking childrens holy books - something which has never been done in the history of this country,
    the CPS separated families by hundreds of miles, lied about the ages of mothers,
    and lied yet again about pregnancies to try to bolter their failed case.
    - What needs to happen now is criminal and civil charges against the perpetrators of these many crimes.
    Its also sad that based on some shock words so many were willing to forget all the laws and condemn before proving guilty.

  • Charles
    May 23, 2008 6:24 a.m.

    CPS will not go into the inner city and pull this same kind of raid, looking for the person that got a 13 year old pregnant, they will not do it and you know why. It was easy to go to the FLDS Ranch with their state of texas army guns etc. draging off mothers and children and than taking the children away from their mothers it,s shameful that this can happen in the good old USA well it did happened and shame on texas

  • KnotinTexas
    May 23, 2008 6:26 a.m.

    "Prove they have underage mothers that are forced to have sex or treat them like you do everyone else." By definition, an underage mother (below the age of consent) was forced to have sex. Sure, there is hysteria surrounding the FLDS in Texas, but the issue is what else should CPS have done? How many underage mothers are necessary before CPS should remove the underage children and conduct a hearing?

  • Anonymous
    May 23, 2008 6:29 a.m.

    I believe the primary (perhaps the only) difference in the doctrine of the LDS and FLDS is polygamy. I've watched with interest the developments taking place in San Angelo, comparing and contrasting them with the challenges faced by the early LDS church. The attitudes of "nonbelievers" is quite similar. Basic civil rights were ignored in both settings but fortunately the judicial branch of our government has matured. There are still concerns about forced marriages that deserve investigation and can be resolved through regularly scheduled interviews with the parties. Since the marriages are sanctioned neither by the state of Texas nor the federal government, individual rights would prevail if anyone wished to get out of an abusive relationship. Brainwashing, in the 19th century and today, was an easy rationalization to taking action against people whose values and beliefs lies at or beyond the edges of social norms.

  • russ
    May 23, 2008 6:54 a.m.

    The case is headed to the Tx. supreme court. Everyone take their two hands and get a good grip on themselves. You can see that this is headed to the US Supreme Court too.

    And that takes time.

    The wheels of justice are slow but steady.

  • Grandma
    May 23, 2008 6:55 a.m.

    I was glad to see this happen. We should all be a bit frightened of Texas' stormtrooper approach to removing children en masse on the basis of some heresay that hasn't been proven. If this is allowed to continue, we could all be at peril if someone cried wolf about abuse.

    Are there bad eggs in the FLDS group? Yes. But are all the people there abusive? NO!

    I think this whole thing should be a terrible example to us of how much fear rules our country right now.

    Again, if abuse is really going on, prove it. And do something about the perpetrators, as has been done with Warren Jeffs. If not, and the people just seem weird to others, LEAVE THEM ALONE!

  • Hey, New Mexico
    May 23, 2008 6:55 a.m.

    I don't remember seeing anyone that was fat or a slob coming from that ranch. Were you looking at the Enquirer or maybe Good Morning America and seeing all the regular americans out there when you made that comment? These people look healthy, trim, neat and I hear they are even respectful (GASP!). Stop listening to the CPS garbage and take a breath. I live in Texas and from what you were describing the FLDS men to be you might have been describing about 98 percent of the men in San Antonio, the third fattest city in the nation, not the FLDS. I am shocked at the religious bigotry I am seeing or hearing about. The Bible Belt rages on....

  • Lee
    May 23, 2008 7:22 a.m.

    The Court was absolutly correct in it's ruling.These were "findings of fact". That the Texas CPS used tactics from the Third Riech to tear away these children from thier mother's arms!Single abuse cases can be prosecuted and should be.Texas CPS made a "blanket judgemental" decision on prosecuting the entire group.These people have the same rights as all Americans have.Once again, the Constitution & The Bill of Rights prevail!!BTW, where is the ACLU?

  • Re: Fumarase deficiency...
    May 23, 2008 7:23 a.m.

    Thanks so much for your fine scientific analysis. It takes a real mensas to research wikipedia. You are a real credit to your genetic pedigree. What is your point anyway. Are you a fascist or something?

  • Brave New World
    May 23, 2008 7:28 a.m.

    Let's assume that all of this leads to legalization of polygamy. Fast forward a few years, say to 2020. At this point, polygamy is now "accepted & legal". Realize that the birth ratio has now (and always has been) about 105 boys to 100 girls born. Now, the wealthy & powerful will get all the girls. Many young men will become "lost boys" (google Warren Snow & Thomas Lewis--just for fun), not enough girls to go around. Women will become a commodity, much like cattle. Wealthy & powerful men will trade women & young girls like expensive sports cars. Sound good to you?

    Remember, bigamy is against the law in all 50 states and there is no doubt that it is being practiced in this case. Same thing for statutory rape, girls under age 18 with multiple children fathered by men twice their age is "statutory rape". No doubt about it, it's going on (along with inbreeding & genetic disorders, coersion, threats, etc.). Prosecute these people, enforce the laws of the land. Do it or things will get really ugly. There are those in the LDS Church itching to bring polygamy back and we wouldn't want it.

  • 59 year old dad
    May 23, 2008 7:33 a.m.

    "The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services issued a statement on Thursday defending the raid.

    "When we see evidence that children have been sexually abused and remain at risk of further abuse, we will act," it said."

    It looks like the CPS violated their own stated policy by acting first before having any evidence. Even my own kids knew at an early age that they were supposed to "think before you act."

    No, I'm not an FLDS member. I live on the east coast but follow the news. I didn't find it that difficult to follow this story because I studied not only Deseret News, but several papers from Texas, DFPS's own web site, ACLU, the FLDS's own web site, and several blogs. It was clear from the very beginning to me that even if there was some truth to rumors of illegal activities on the ranch, the Texas authorities were on an admitted all out witch hunt to destroy a community.

    Aside from religious beliefs, I'm impressed with the amazing industry that the FLDS demonstrate, building a beautiful community, teaching the kids to be healthy, well behaved, and to be ready and willing participants in chores, etc.

  • Has anyone thought...
    May 23, 2008 7:37 a.m.

    I don't know if anyone has had the thought that all of us are reading from a newspaper or other form of media and getting hyped by what may be CPS or media perversions intended to hide or distort for various reasons or agendas! The facts of what is happening back at the ranch are mostly if not all media fed and we are all victims of their information be it good or bad. I always cringe when I read something about religion in the papers. I don't believe it is ever easy to adequately describe spiritual practise or beliefs to someone else. Religion in this world today has been marked as superstition and even within the different churchs or denominations there is skeptisism. We are all very hard at times on each other. Why? Is it that we are looking for verification of our own beliefs and feelings? Is it that we need to "Know" truth but fear others who claim to have a different truth? Religions have been called cults by anyone that doesn't believe similarly including Christians, Hindus, Jews, Muslims, Pagans... What about the big cult...the MEDIA! Should we fear them?

  • Southern Utah Resident
    May 23, 2008 7:41 a.m.

    Guess the FLDS can get back to business as usual.

    *Old men raping and impregnating young girls.
    *Welfare fraud.
    *Child slave labor.
    *Abandoning young boys leaving them homeless.
    *Failing to educate children.
    *Child abuse.
    *"Re-assigning" wives and families by convicted felon Warren Jeffs.
    *And oh yea, Polygamy... which is still a felony in Utah... but ignored by our Attorney general.

  • Letter to CPS
    May 23, 2008 7:45 a.m.

    The Texas CPS dug themselves into a very deep hole. The Texas Court of Appeals has lowered a ladder for them. If CPS is smart, they will announce that they will comply with the order from the Court of Appeals, return the children quickly, but proceed with an investigation and hearings.

    The whole thing will be come under scrutiny for a few days, and then quiet down. Hopefully, the trial judge will order the FLDS families to cooperate, and this matter can be handled in a more orderly manner.

    I don't know if any CPS officials will read this, but if you are: Here is your chance to get out of this mess without losing too much prestige. Simply comply with the order from the Court, and return the children.

  • Changes
    May 23, 2008 7:56 a.m.

    Hopefully this will at least lead to some changes across all polygamous groups that prevent anyone underage from entering into a polygamous marriage. I'm not sure much can be done about the brainwsashing aspect of a cult but society can at least insist it's children are not being forced into sexual relationships in the name of religion. Then it is up to each state to up its legal age to marry in order to give these kids a little more time to be kids.

  • Mahonri
    May 23, 2008 8:11 a.m.

    Good for the FUNDAMENTALIST Mormons, the only ones who are still living the teachings of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They do not compromise for the sake of money and property.
    Here's hoping they take the whole plural marriage question all the way to the Supreme Court and have it declared legal. Then the LDS can reinstitute the practice openly and get back to the REAL Gospel.

  • Colorado
    May 23, 2008 8:24 a.m.

    Wait and see folks - no one in CPS or law enforcement will pay a consequence for these unconstitutional acts and government "abuse" of these women and children. Time and time again, we read of government abuse at all levels - with nothing more than a verbal slap on the wrist. What has really changed, is that the police, the courts, and other government agencies, do as they please - with no accountability and no consequences for their crimes. They are the real terrorists of our day, not the "law abiding" citizens.

  • WashCo
    May 23, 2008 8:38 a.m.

    Regardless of all the sympathy to the FLDS, These perverts are still raping little girls (statutorily) with the mother's encouragement and knowledge. At least Texas tried to do the right thing. Hooray for those who have broken free.

  • realitycheck
    May 23, 2008 8:41 a.m.

    I've had a change of heart. I wish to convert.

    BAM BAM.. there - I killed my dogs

    HEY HEY - Now I've gotten my sister's daughter pregnant and locked her in my back yard....

    Now she's had 5 kids so I let her out and put her kids back there so she'll "stay sweet"...

    I've brainwashed them all so they obey my every command...

    Now I've traded some of my daughters for my brother's daughters and taken them as wives. They've had more kids and they're all in the backyard. (Backyard has no weeds now and looks good)..

    All the boys are working at my construction site for no pay - wow, this is great...

    I'm giving all my money to the prophet (since I don't need a college fund for these kids)...

    I just painted my car green because the prophet said red was no good.

    BAM BAM - killed another dog that was wandering around...

    Any other criteria? I really want to fit in....


  • debo
    May 23, 2008 8:58 a.m.

    WE CANNOT GIVE UP THE LAWS OF GOD. IF EVER WE MUST CHOOSE BETWEEN THE LAWS OF MEN AND THE LAWS OF GOD, WE WILL ALWAYS CHOOSE TO FOLLOW THE LAWS OF GOD. IF THE LAW MAKERS WOULD UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES THERE WOULD NEVER BE A LAW AGAINST WHAT WE DO; FOR WE LIVE HIGHER THAN THEIR LAWS, OUR LAWS ARE MORE STRICT, MORE PERFECT THAN ANY LAWS THEY SHOULD PASS; BUT THE WICKED HAVE PASSED LAWS TO DESTROY THE PRIESTHOOD SO WE MUST UPHOLD THE LAWS OF GOD.

  • Yes, These are Abused Children
    May 23, 2008 9:05 a.m.

    Without question, we can all agree that these children are victims of child abuse; unfortunately the facts are being established that over 99% of all the abuse these children received in their lives occurred in the last two months, the day the raid took place. For those deluded into thinking children are better off in the hands of CPS workers, think again. The obsessions with children and perverse activities with children demonstrated by the CPS workers is not unique to Texas but in states all across the country.

  • ?
    May 23, 2008 9:27 a.m.

    I smell a supreme court ruling

  • pervasive pattern
    May 23, 2008 9:31 a.m.

    CPS believes there is, in the FLDS, a pervasive pattern of abuse, but have no evidence. FLDS believe, in the CPS, there is abuse, and have more evidence than could be documented in a lifetime.

  • Reason
    May 23, 2008 9:30 a.m.

    I want to congratulate the State of Utah, particularly our Attorney General, for the reasoned way in which they have approached the polygamy issue. By applying the rule of law they have set a standard by which Texas should have taken note.

  • Anonymous
    May 23, 2008 9:32 a.m.

    Judge Barbara Walther sounds like she needed to be put in her place. I have never agreed with the idea that they took the smallest children away from their moms arms and given to strangers.

  • Abuse
    May 23, 2008 9:35 a.m.

    I feel that Abuse is wrong, and anyone Abusing anyone else, needs to be brought to justice, now can some one with FACTS explain to me what this has to do with FLDS, as far as i can see they the Fathers, Mothers and Children of the FLDS are 100% victims, by all means stop abuse but leave these people alone while you do it

    the way I see it every individual involved was given a choice to be a Patriot or a Terrorist, sadly most in power chose to be terrorists.

    I'm just glad to see that our/my justice system still works

  • THEY HAVE GOT IT RIGHT
    May 23, 2008 9:40 a.m.

    YOU DON'T ROUND UP A WHOLE COMMUNITY OF SEPERATE FAMILYS BASED ON A FAKE PHONE CALL.

    THROW THE PROVEN OFFENDERS IN JAIL RELEASE THE NON OFFENDERS AND INNOCENT.

  • Open your eyes
    May 23, 2008 9:41 a.m.

    Anyone who know FLDS personally, or who has ever been involved, or been a TRUE member of their sect, knows darn well these people will pull the wool over even their wives eyes. It's called CONTROL! and they do it very well. So, for those who think they are so sweet-YOU ARE WRONG! Those women are brainwashed into looking and acting the way they do. DON'T FOOL YOURSELVES! And the older men do go after the younger women. They even fight over who has who, and some times switch wives, or kick some of the FLDS fellows out. There are more men in the FLDS cult then there are women.

  • wrz
    May 23, 2008 9:48 a.m.

    "TEXAS....PROVE THE ABUSE or give back the children. I came from the FLDS and being judgmental of others, strict blind obedience,lack of trusting your own conscience and arranged marriages are all abuse to me..."

    Using your criteria, the entire world is being abused.

  • patriots
    May 23, 2008 9:50 a.m.

    Crime is crime, and it is being punished every day in this country. I do not want crime to go unpunished, but i do want another crime to be committed in so doing. Terrorists such as realitycheck do not want due process, they want to terrorize me as an American and say that if I don't support Texas in their unconstitutional behavior than i am not a patriot. I say down with tyrants! Child abuse is wrong and it is being dealt with WITHIN the laws in every state of the union. This is not an attack on the FLDS, this is an attack on me as an American!

  • Joe Moe
    May 23, 2008 9:51 a.m.

    To all those who vilify CPS or DCFS, a few comments. There have been mistakes and abuses. Systems, policies, and personnel can always be improved. But hundreds and thousands of children are better off because these agencies exist. The day-to-day muck and mire that these social workers go through as they try to help suffering and abused children counter-indicates the blanket condemnations some of you are giving out.

  • Susan
    May 23, 2008 9:52 a.m.

    >>... the Texas CPS engaged in flagrant violations of the Constitution and due process.

  • LDS IN SA
    May 23, 2008 9:53 a.m.

    Congrat's to the FLDS! One question: Has there been one person arrested from any of the "charges"? Prayers are heard. Let the FLDS alone. Give back the children.

  • finally!
    May 23, 2008 9:55 a.m.

    I am so excited and hope Judge Walther isn't going to try to stop the return of the children/babies to their moms.
    Some of you people seem so bitter about the FLDS getting your knowledge from the media and those who have left the FLDS church. You can hear a lot of negative things on all religions talking to those who have left. Why don't you visit the places of the FLDS and see what is going on yourself before judging.

    I am positive the children are much happier, healthier, and better off with their moms.

  • wrz
    May 23, 2008 9:57 a.m.

    When law enforcement investigates, tell the whole truth."

    You don't have to tell the truth... or say anything. Says so in the Miranda Rights. Which these people were not read upon their "arrest."

  • These poor girls.
    May 23, 2008 9:57 a.m.

    I feel sorry for Pamela Jessop. Not because she was taken into CPS for being 18. She has two kids at 18. She must have concieved the first one when she was 15-16. What a sad life. And there are other girls that are in the same position.

    And what is up with Willie Jessop and his PR act? He drives a Mercedes while his "followers" labor hard for him and get not much in return.

    Texas had a huge blunder, but I hope they prosecute the law-breakers! No one should hide behind freedom of religion to commit illegal acts!

  • Silver Fox says...
    May 23, 2008 9:57 a.m.

    GOOD WIN for the 48(?) moms and children !!!

    To reinforce this good win, the FLDS should now stop "spiritual marriages" and assume the responsibility of "civil marriages". Such a change would indicate a willingness toward more responsible citizenship.

    It would also signal your willingness to join the rest of us in this world. We are not all wicked. Some of us are wonderful people. Many of us could help you further your worthy goals. Such a willingness could also generate more financial benefits (in the long term )than can be gained thru short term successes with law suits.

    In reality, that is probably to much too expect.

    The desires of FLDS leadership for retribution, at the urging of attorneys and their law firms, will probably prevail.

  • Brainwashed
    May 23, 2008 9:58 a.m.

    "Brainwashed" is an entirely overused word. Its hard for me to believe that the CPS are actually brainwashed. Couldn't it just be that they are just ignorant and power hungry?

  • Val
    May 23, 2008 9:59 a.m.

    "Funny how the ACLU has not weighed in on this civil liberties issue."

    They don't seem to care unless it involves homosexuality or minorities.

  • Mink
    May 23, 2008 10:00 a.m.

    I am very happy and relieved by this appeals court ruling - not for the FLDS, but for all of our rights as parents. Texas CPS was out of control. They must be required to adhere to constitutional limits and to abide by their own rules which were established by law. If they can do whatever they want based on perceptions and general concerns, no one is safe from their power. So for the first time since this debacle started, I'm happy to say GO TEXAS!!!

    The maddening part of this is that the actions of Texas CPS and the district court have actually made it less likely that the actual cases of abuse by certain FLDS leaders and their cohorts will be addressed. The Utah and Arizona approach is slow and methodical, but it is legal and has shown results. The FLDS situation will only be addressed by solid investigative work and by building trust (as slow and difficult as this approach is), not by the wholesale denial of constitutional rights.

  • Ekim
    May 23, 2008 10:06 a.m.

    To: Reason 9:30 a.m.

    "...our Attorney General for the reasoned way in which they have approached the polygamy issue. By applying the rule of law......."

    Excuse me. Applying the rule of law? When? Where?

    Give me a break!!

  • to Colorado
    May 23, 2008 10:08 a.m.

    Colorado: You are right, Lack of government accountability has given rise to frankenstien agencies like the CPS. The CPS czars must be held accountable, as well as Judge Walther, although she seems more like an enabling stooge in this case.

  • L
    May 23, 2008 10:09 a.m.

    They follow their prophet to a tee. If he said sacrifice your child on an altar, there is probably some that would take it as a sign from God. According to some of the stories I've read from former members (especially the women) it is very controlling and no one listens to the children or has any tolerance if they act up, ready to toss out a son if that is what their prophet wants. The girls won't get much in way of education other than to learn to wash the feet of their master and rub them dry with their hair. Cleaning and making meals, all for free where most men would have to pay a housecleaner for that they have a whole staff to cater to them when they feel like being there. And they have to do it "sweetly". That is their future, and their future does not include vacations, wading in the ocean or feeling the sun on any of their skin other than their faces. That is their future. Never mind the sex part. They are isolated and controlled and that in and of itself is not even American.

  • Crying in California
    May 23, 2008 10:23 a.m.

    I'm curious about something....how come, in the United States, we cry foul over the FLDS believing in and practicing plural marriage, but no such ruckus is made over the fact that millions of Muslims around the world practice it? Hmmm....does that smack of religious discrimination to anyone? We can howl about it here, but we can't talk about the reality in the rest of the world. Methinks we are hypocrites.

  • CB
    May 23, 2008 10:30 a.m.

    Fumarase deficiency is extremely rare. Until roughly 18 years ago scientists knew of only thirteen cases worldwide . However, recently twenty additional cases have been documented in the Arizona/Utah border towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah[9] These two towns constitute a closed and controlled community, and were settled in the 1930s by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is a breakaway sect not affiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As such, many of the surrounding communities refer to this disease as "Polygamist's Down's"[10]

  • Crying in California
    May 23, 2008 10:31 a.m.

    Brave New World said, "Let's assume that all of this leads to legalization of polygamy. Fast forward a few years, say to 2020. At this point, polygamy is now "accepted & legal". Realize that the birth ratio has now (and always has been) about 105 boys to 100 girls born. Now, the wealthy & powerful will get all the girls. Many young men will become "lost boys" (google Warren Snow & Thomas Lewis--just for fun), not enough girls to go around. Women will become a commodity, much like cattle. Wealthy & powerful men will trade women & young girls like expensive sports cars. Sound good to you?"
    Em...you are confusing two separate issues. Polygamy has nothing to do with 'girls' or being underage or forced into marriage. It has to do with adult consent and personal choice. Of course, the idea, just as any other idea, can be abused or misused. Sheesh...bring back Plato and Socrates! Teach us some reasoning skills!

  • CB
    May 23, 2008 10:31 a.m.

    Dr. Theodore Tarby, a pediatric neurologist who has treated some of the sect's affected residents, has been quoted as estimating the IQ of these patients as around 25.[11]. Tarby was treating a child with undetermined developmental difficulties when he learned there was a sibling with what was being described as cerebral palsy. Upon examining the other child, he sent off urine samples for definitive testing only to learn that his patients had a disorder so rare that only 13 other current cases were known.[12] Assuming these numbers are correct, the new cases Tarby uncovered now account for approximately 60.6% of all known cases of Fumarase deficiency.

  • CB
    May 23, 2008 10:33 a.m.

    The fumarase deficiency allele has become very common in this community due to the practice of endogamy. It is believed that Joseph Smith Jessop, one of the founders of the communities, and his first wife carried the mutant allele. According to the Phoenix New Times, the rare disease appeared when their 12th child, Martha Jessop, married her second cousin, John Yeates Barlow, in 1923.[13]. The same article states that some 20 cases have now been documented and that further intermarriage between the Jessop and Barlow families will surely result in more afflicted children.[14] There is the possibility of perhaps hundreds of new cases in future generations if preventative measures are not adopted by the group members who are suspected carriers of the allele.[15] More alarming still is the recent development of a satellite community in Eldorado, Texas, where a temple has been built by FLDS Church members.[16] This new community is populated with many members of these two extended families who can be presumed to be potential carriers of the recessive allele.

    The populations of Colorado City and Hildale could be considered examples of the founder effect.

  • To Brainwashed
    May 23, 2008 10:34 a.m.

    Could it be the FLDS are ignorant and power hungry too? They remove any reference of dinasours in text books, no one has higher than an 8th grade education, they speak, associate or learn of the outside world so they have just as many prejudices towards people that wear t-shirts as the people with the t-shirts have towards them.

  • "FLDS win big victory"
    May 23, 2008 10:38 a.m.

    headline correction; should read:

    "FLDS ADULTS win big victory"

    not so good for the children

  • Anonymous
    May 23, 2008 10:43 a.m.

    I AM SO GLAD TO HEAR THAT THEY ARE CONTINUING TO INVESTIGATE WHETHER THE ORIGINAL CALL WAS A HOAX

    NOW HOW LONG HAS THAT INVESTIGATION BEEN GOING ON?

    AND DIDN'T THEY ARREST SOMEONE ALREADY?

    AND THEY STILL DON'T KNOW?

    THERE IS NO ONE SO BLIND AS SOMEONE WHO DOES NOT WANT TO SEE....

  • Foolish people
    May 23, 2008 10:51 a.m.

    HEY!!! you FLDS supporters, Go try to join the FLDS cultist if you think you can. I bet ya, that you couldn't get a big toe through their front doors unless you had Mormon pioneer heritage and you were a woman. They don't take kindly to outsiders. They believe they are the chosen ones living on the earth today. They are very predigest against all other races. So, feel sorry for yourselves because you are lower then a gentile snake in their eyes.

  • Diversity?
    May 23, 2008 10:54 a.m.

    So when does someone bring a lawsuit against FLDS for not meeting their, umm..."diversity" targets?

  • Craig
    May 23, 2008 10:57 a.m.

    Here is my solution: legalize polygamy. Once that is done then authorities can concentrate solely on investigating and prosecuting real cases of abuse.

  • WHH
    May 23, 2008 11:21 a.m.

    You folks think the Child Protective folks are going to roll over and play dead because they lost Round 2. I'm not in favor of polygamy but all this started because of a hoax phone call and no real evidence. While we should do everything possible to protect the kids, we don't live in a police state.

    While people like Warren Jeffs should be on death row but he is in prison based on the word of a girl. No real evidence of rape exists. Pictures can be staged and I don't buy the descriptions because you don't know what was said or done before or after. Pictures aren't equal to video so you don't really know what happened.

    I'm pro law enforcement and anti-polygamy but too many of these state people go overboard in trying to justify the need for their jobs. What about all those parents of inner city single parents where the kids are at risk? What's next? A Police State?

  • Foolish People
    May 23, 2008 11:23 a.m.

    Spelling error---I meant "PREJUDICE" and not predigest..laughers! True though, their culture is one that I cannot predigest. Laughers!!!!

  • re: photo with story
    May 23, 2008 11:29 a.m.

    honey, the shades clash with the outfit

  • Urroner
    May 23, 2008 11:29 a.m.

    So Foolish People, are you saying that it's okay for the government to break the law with "predigest" and not be held accountable?

  • Cheryl
    May 23, 2008 11:31 a.m.

    I have a TON of mixed feelings about all of this. I tried asking some questions to ppl who identified themselves as women part of the FLDS group, but never rec'd any answers. I asked very respectfully, I should note. I FEEL like the FLDS want us to believe everything that they say, but when asked a question respectfully so I can better understand their situation, nobody was able, or cared to answer me. I have researched and read everything that I could find about what is happening. I have read all the newpaper articles I could find, I have read the "bishops list" (which I have questions about), I have watched all videos about the situation. I have done, to the best of my knowledge, as much research as I can. I feel very torn about the whole situation. Everything about it makes me sad.

  • DC
    May 23, 2008 11:35 a.m.

    To "Not so fast FLDS"

    First, your sophomoric rhetorical effort to imply that anyone who opposes the Texas CPS must be FLDS isn't really working, so I suggest a different tack.

    Second, the legal issue here is more complex than you believe. Yes, the current Supreme Court would most likely defend state laws regulating formal marriage, while striking down state laws regulating adult sex outside of marriage. But the polygamous couples here are not formally married, and Texas's "informal" marriage law with history showing it was amended specifically to target the FLDS -- *will* be constitutionally problematic if applied to adult couples. But if Texas goes the other route, and prosecutes adult men for the isolated cases of unmarried sex with girls under 18, they will have a problem because the girls were above the age at which they could be married with their parents' consent in Texas. The only reason they're not married is because of the law against polygamy -- a religious belief. So Texas cant claim that theyre just protecting children, because it says the same relationship is OK provided it isnt done in polygamy, which means the law is targeting religion.

  • welfare fraud
    May 23, 2008 11:41 a.m.




    In 1998 Hildale ranked last among Utah towns for average payment of federal income taxes paid per filer ($651 annually), but it is first for tax exemptions (3.62). The average income on Hildale tax returns is $14,500, which was last in Utah's 170 towns and cities in 1998.
    Hildale received $405,006 from federal housing grants to remodel 19 homes on FLDS land. And Hildale Mayor David K. Zitting, an FLDS member, was appointed by two Utah governors (Republicans Norm Bangerter and Mike Leavitt) to sit on the state Housing Development Advisory Council.
    Colorado City and Hildale were on a list of the top ten towns with a population over 2,000 in the Intermountain West for reliance upon Medicaid (health care for the poor) in 1998. And in that same year the same towns draw from the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program (food for low-income mothers) could only be equaled by Western Indian reservations and impoverished inner cities. 33% of Hildale and Colorado City residents were using food stamps in 1998. To put this into perspective, respectively Arizona's average was 6.7% and Utah's 4.7% during that same period.


  • These happy families
    May 23, 2008 11:50 a.m.

    In Pamela Jessop's own words, she loves her children and the joy's of being a mother. There is no greater joy in this world than children, and the most miserable pitiful people are childless career woman, save your pity for the likes of them. They will one day pass away, alone, forgetten. But Pamela Jessop will see her grandchildren. Even in the Bible, the greatest gift is family.
    How odd that our society has melded the lies of a joyful career in place of family, or that people pretend that working out a companies accounts is more fulfilling than family. I pity the barren career slaves who've given it all for the big lie, and discover how miserable they are all too late.

  • DC
    May 23, 2008 11:53 a.m.

    To "Welfare Fraud"

    Interesting facts. None of that seems to apply to the YFZ Ranch, though. They weren't on welfare. It's like saying that I'm a cheat somehow because I have a cousin who didn't pay his taxes.

  • Re: Southern Utah
    May 23, 2008 11:55 a.m.

    You must have been abused in your life.

    Your comment is such a lie. That is liken to me saying that all the Clinton Family are lying,sex addicts who use there power to control others and
    profit from it.

    Opps, well maybe a few have some problems.

    Do we punish all people for the actions of a few?

    Maybe you should drink some of that Jones cool aid.

  • THE FUMARASE ALLELE
    May 23, 2008 12:07 p.m.

    I see that those that suffer from the FLDS disease->>>The fumarase deficiency allele

  • Re:These Happy Families
    May 23, 2008 12:11 p.m.

    YES,YES,YES!!!!There is no greater gift or blessing on earth than children! The Bible also says they are a reward! And that happy is the family that has it's quiver full of them!!!

  • Reasoning Skills
    May 23, 2008 12:19 p.m.

    To "Crying in California":

    You ever heard of "thinking outside the box"? Hmm?? This argument is an example of extrapolation, similar to reasoning used to condemn the idea of legalizing gay marriages. For instance, people who argue that legalizing gay marriage is "only between consenting adults" and is no harm are taken aback by those who say "legalizing gay marriage will increase the spread of the Aids virus" (or something like that).

    Same thing here. Legalize polygamy, which many of you are apparently advocating (less the "forced child marriages", etc.) and you will get the consequences that "Brave New World" advances. Many women marrying rich, powerful men would me that for many men no wives would be available. Hardly a Christian outcome in my view for one man to have everything and the other men nothing. And make no mistake, that would happen. In early Utah census records (1860 census, for example) there were actually more men living in Utah than women--fact. Brigham Young & Heber Kimball marrying 30-60 women each meant a corresponding number of younger men could not marry (recall the sex ratio at birth favors boys--105/100). That's responsible reasoning so stop your crying.

  • to - DC 11:53 am
    May 23, 2008 12:24 p.m.

    the reason it doesn't apply to YFZ ranch is because the wefare funds fraudulently collected in Hilldale and Colorado City are being sent to and funding daily life at YFZ ranch.

    Or are you conveniently ignoring the fact that no one on that ranch has a job?

    What don't you understand?

  • to Reasoning Skills 12:19
    May 23, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    I agree with your hypothesis, but what would really happen is the women would marry the rich old men and then sleep with the younger men. So the old men pay for the women but the young men get all the fun.

    It actually works out well for everyone.

    Only problem with FLDS is they aren't rich, so taxpayers actually have to pay for it. And the younger men are kicked out so the women are stuck with the not-rich old men. Not such a good deal...

  • Anonymous
    May 23, 2008 12:30 p.m.

    It's too bad that some of these kids are going to be put back in harms way.

  • willie jessop
    May 23, 2008 12:36 p.m.

    did anyone see willie jessop lie through his teeth on larry king last night? ask if he knew of any underage marriages???hahahaha

  • Endangered species
    May 23, 2008 12:38 p.m.

    Hey people, You cannot penetrate the brains of FLDS numskulls. They have been so brainwashed and programmed against the outside world that anything you may say to them doesn't go into their ears, it only bounces off their heads. These people act like they have Autism. I have never seen anything like it. I don't even think they could be deprogrammed. They will eventually breed themselves extinct. So let them do it. All for the better.

  • to DC
    May 23, 2008 12:41 p.m.

    plus...they double dip by spending the food stamps and WIC at church owned business'

    hey, the reason they fled to texas, besides the 14 year old marriage law(at the time they built it). is because those of us in southern utah are wise to the shenanigans

  • Add it up
    May 23, 2008 1:00 p.m.

    1. Locked gates.
    2. Minimal contact with the outside world.
    3. Tell-all books from former members.
    4. Deliberatly trying to deceive authorities about 5. basic information.
    6. A few men, lots of women and even lots more children.
    7. Stories of abandoned teenaged males.
    8. When the press comes asking questions, put the women out there with a script, and dodge the questions about underage marriage.
    9. Worshipping some guy who's in jail for accomplice to rape.
    10. Build a super fancy facility in a very short time with no apparent means of financial support.
    11. Everybody looks alike, talks alike, and dresses right out the 1850s.
    12. Girls have to be told how old they are, and aren't sure who their parents are.

    But other than that...

  • Re: 12:19 pm
    May 23, 2008 1:01 p.m.

    Of course with polygamy women are going to cheat on their men. After all, it's not about love. It's about having children, and being taken care of. But everyone needs a "one and only". The older men might think that their young wives are in love with them, but they need a reality check.

  • colorado AG
    May 23, 2008 1:03 p.m.

    get ready...your state,Colorado is next for this blight on society

  • Crying in California
    May 23, 2008 1:09 p.m.

    To Reasoning Skills:

    You seem to think that I am condoning plural marriage, gay marriage, whatever. You are wrong. I condone neither. I actually am a Christian, and I believe firmly in the one man-one woman marriage.

    HOWEVER, I also believe in following the laws, but as you can see, they are ever-changing. What with the judicial legislating going on here in CA, the laws will change (and I don't believe for the better). My argument is about reason, not personal views. The person whose comments I responded to presented a flawed argument. Reasoning is based on logic, not emotion. I could bring a whole lot of that in, if you would like, but then that would entail bringing in my moral ideals and religious beliefs, and in the court of law, those, sadly, no longer seem to have any weight. Of course, when all is said and done, God will judge. Now THAT is one "reasoning" session, I look forward to.

    Oh, and one last thing. Not all women want to marry a rich guy. Most of us still marry for love and values. Please don't generalize.

  • Park City Resident
    May 23, 2008 1:43 p.m.

    This is not a victory to any FLDS girl between the ages of 12 and 18.

    This is not a victory for the young boys that are pulled out of school to work construction 12-16 hours a day... for free.

    This is not a victory for the young boys that will be abandoned and left homeless in order to have multiple women for each man.

    This is not a victory for human rights.

  • HeatherD
    May 23, 2008 2:10 p.m.

    Re: To DC (12:24)

    They manufacture airplane parts. Look it up, genius.

  • BLATANT
    May 23, 2008 2:19 p.m.

    =

    LIST OF TEXAS CPS BLATANT ERRORS

    OR "DOMINO-FALLACIES

    OR SLIPPERY-SLOPE FALLACIES

    SIGNED: RECKIPS

    =

  • LDS Girl
    May 23, 2008 2:23 p.m.

    To-12:19 & 1:01
    You are absolutely correct. It's a womens nature to be to attracted to someone to love of her own age. So you are correct she would go to the extreme of cheating to be with a younger man. Youth is always more inviting to youth. Too bad these old FLDS men don't get it mentally, and stay within their own age group. Do these FLDS men not realize how repulsive they are?

  • debo
    May 23, 2008 2:26 p.m.

    WE BELIEVE IN THE ONE MAN RULE, THE KINGDOM OF GOD THE PRIESTHOOD OF GOD IS A BENEVOLENT DICTATORSHIP, ONE MAN RULES THROUGH THE LOVE OF GOD. THE ONE MAN WE FOLLOW IS OUR LORD AND SAVIOR JESUS CHRIST, HE APPOINTS A MORTAL MAN TO REPRESENT HIM TO HIS PEOPLE, AND THAT ONE MAN IS WARREN STEED JEFFS. THIS IS THE WORK OF OUR LORD AND SAVIOR THAT WE ARE APART OF, AND WE FOLLOW HIS SERVANT, PRESIDENT JEFFS, WHO BLESSES US CONTINUALLY. LET US PUT OUR TRUST IN WHOM THE LORD TRUSTS; AND THAT IS HOW WE RECEIVE OUR BLESSINGS. WHAT YOU DO UNTO THIS PROPHET YOU DO UNTO THE LORD.

  • Re: debo
    May 23, 2008 2:40 p.m.

    Caps turn me off to what ever it is you had to say...sorry, can't stand to read it.

  • bhparkman
    May 23, 2008 3:09 p.m.

    The FLDS basically won the Short Creek Raid with the media's help, and now their going to try to win this one with the court system's help. At leat we got Jeff's in jail. That's 2:1, FLDS in the lead - not very encouraging.

    I always thought us Utahn's would have to call out both the National Guard and the Unorganized Militia to deal with these guys in pitched battle. Now it looks like the lawyers again are robbing us blind and pretending to do the work of real men.

    At least Shurtleff did his best to drive them out. Now Texas has to suffer embaressment and loss instead of us sieging their compounds.

  • bigotry has a price
    May 23, 2008 4:17 p.m.

    By trying to eliminate polygamy the state of Texas will be funding it for the next 100 years. The lawsuits filed in this case should bankrupt Texas and unfortunately the polygamist parents will be better off than before the raid. The children however, will be harmed for life. By making these comments I am totally against polygamy in any form. Whether it be by taking spiritual wives or adultry. Texas will soon learn that bigotry has a price.

  • Anonymous
    May 23, 2008 4:23 p.m.

    The state of Utah ought to offer a deal to Warren Jeffs to drop the lawsuit against Jeffs if he will suddenly have a "revelation" making it against Gods laws to marry under 18. I bet Jeffs would suddenly get inspired with such an offer. The FLDS had no problems with the law until Jeffs gave a revelation telling people to marry children of 15.

  • To 4:17
    May 23, 2008 4:28 p.m.

    I agree, Texas let their bigoted Baptist religion get in the way of dealing with this FLDS issue properly. The Baptist buses gave it all way the very first day, and to who was truly behind the raid. It's sad that the FLDS children will have to continue to suffer FLDS abuse because of Texas and their stupid mistakes. I hope the Texas authorities can live with knowing what they have done.

  • Confused simple minds
    May 23, 2008 4:45 p.m.

    1. If fraud is such a big problem why worry about piddly welfare fraud when we are losing trillions to the war profiteering in IRAQ ?

    2. Many innocent people who aren't in FLDS have also had their children stolen by CPS. ALL stolen children nation wide need to be returned.

    3. The government needs to get out of the marriage business. It is just sick how perverted people have nothing better to do than speculate what other people do in their private bedrooms. GET A LIFE !

    4. For the billionth time a teenage is not a child and neither is a 27 year old woman.

    5.Any one who can't understand the difference between someone before puberty and an adult needs to go read a biology book or something. FLDS education couldn't possibly be more lacking than YOURS.

    6. I hope they bring in a lot of people and vote those corrupt people in Eldorado out of office.

  • William
    May 23, 2008 4:44 p.m.

    To Anonymous 4:23
    You might have to start with Joseph Smith first. I don't truly believe there ever was any such revelation. But you might try telling any FLDS man that, who also desires more then one wife. The FLDS like to believe it is true, and hide behind God, and that makes it a bit easier to go and molest young women. Pretty sick environment.

  • come on...
    May 23, 2008 4:54 p.m.

    To keep claiming that the Baptists are behind all of this is completely ridiculous.

    Talk about religious persecution....give me a break.

  • Confused simple minds
    May 23, 2008 5:04 p.m.

    If we don't all stick with following the constitutional law this country could so easily fall apart from different religions fighting each other just like just like the former Yugoslavia.

  • OH! come on!
    May 23, 2008 5:07 p.m.

    To Come on...
    Think about it? who do you think got the Baptist buses to be the compound pronto to get those FLDS kids? Of course, it was the Baptists. I have known some Baptists personally, and I know how badly they hate anything that resembles a Mormon. The FLDS cultist happen to be to close for comfort for they went after them in a barbaric manner. I wonder if all the Baptist involved burned all the Book of Mormon's they seized as they did all the Harry Potter books a few years back? Where are those Book Of Mormons? Does anyone know? I do not care anything whatsoever for the abusive FLDS cult, but I feel even less compassion for Baptist cultist!

  • re Fumerase deficiency 7;23
    May 23, 2008 5:07 p.m.

    Had it occurred to you that the original post on here about fumerase might have been made by someone with a genetics professional background and a concern for the children. You might use wikipedia but some people might actually have professional experience of the condition.
    Surely the original post raises the question of what genetic screening or testing the FLDS have had and the Texas children are undergoing as part of the aftermath of the raid. Seems a valid point to raise mensa wikipedia or no. Perhaps anyone raising a point might be accused of being fascist by you.
    This is a problem affecting many generations of FLDS which has not been discussed in the wake of the raid but seems relevant to the Jessops and the issues surrounding the children. The emotive abuse of someone raising a point is your expression of exactly what?

  • to debo 2:26pm
    May 23, 2008 5:18 p.m.

    seems to me Jeffs wasn't appointed until his dad died. So this is a hnd-me-down prophet? How quaint....

  • realitycheck
    May 23, 2008 5:27 p.m.

    The problem is that the child protection laws weren't written to hold a community such as FLDS to account. The laws require the Texas DFPS prove "immediate" danger to the physical health and welfare of the children that requires "urgent" removal.

    Girls are taught from birth that they are to be the servants of men -- their fathers, their husbands and their prophets. They are taught to "keep sweet" and give themselves "mind, body and soul" to whichever man is their priesthood head. They learn early on that the more children they have, the greater their heavenly glory.

    Boys face the prospect that soon after puberty they will be encouraged or forced out of the community, or they will grow up to be criminals, practicing polygamy in the name of God and possibly becoming sexual predators by accepting without question any child brides they are assigned.

    For both boys and girls, there is no chance to dream of anything beyond what the prophet tells them. And that is INHERENTLY ABUSIVE.

    The FLDS will hide behind the law as it benefits them, and ignore it when it doesn't. They scream for freedom yet deny it to their most helpless.

    Pathetic.

  • Fumarase deficiency allele
    May 23, 2008 5:28 p.m.

    They need to screen all LDS people in ruel Utah, for the disease as well. There is a lot of LDS inbreeding in those small LDS towns. The Mormon people of southern Utah have the best Mormon pioneer pedigrees on the earth, instead 14 lines try 7 lines of genealogy. You can find 10 generations easily of Mormonism in those families. makes a person wonder.

  • Childrenhurt
    May 23, 2008 6:27 p.m.

    Why weren't the children and the mothers left on the compound,and guarded & cared for if they needed to, so the children did not have to be up rooted from their homes. Then round up the perpatrators, the men!
    Makes more sense to me.

  • azmother
    May 23, 2008 6:44 p.m.

    Willie Jessop is way too slick..saw him on Larry King and he acts like he has been to media school. The flds are masters at deception. They have been practicing for years on how to deceive the outside world. They will lie to anyone to protect their religion and I'm afraid the state of Texas will never get the truth. As far as CPS goes, they did what they thought was right. It's not a perfect system and mistakes have been made, but if parents did not abuse their children their would be no need for CPS..think about it. They didn't start the abuse.

  • Slick Willie
    May 23, 2008 6:54 p.m.

    Boy, do I ever agree with 6:44 pm. You are exactly correct on everything you wrote and posted. They KEY WORD with the FLDS, is "DECEPTION". They are taught deception from day one thur adulthood.

  • Dave
    May 23, 2008 7:05 p.m.

    I see they are still acting like the "abuse call" is possibly a hoax but is "under investigation"

    Of course it won't be found to be a hoax until it's not useful for any Texas legal case.
    Then and only then will charges be brought against the perpetrator.
    Well possibly, she seems to have "connections"

  • wyogirl
    May 23, 2008 7:07 p.m.

    anyone interested in some "proof" of abuse can go to the Salt Lake Tribune website for a picture of a girl that bishops records say is 13 being kissed by Warren Jeffs - who at the time was on the FBI's most wanted list.

    I just wonder - who's taking the picture? Her mother? Maybe her Dad needed a favor from the Prophet so he handed over his daughter. Sick, Sick, Sick!!

    Aslo, a FLDS mother was in court today and was asked questions about her pregnancy such as who her doctor was - she answered "I don't know" to most of the questions. How can these people be so accustomed to lying? Don't they realize that we CAN TELL that they are lying - don't they realize how bad it makes them look? Just how far WILL they go to defend their scum-bag "husbands"


    Go to the tribune site - the article is very good

  • Re: Confused simple minds
    May 23, 2008 7:29 p.m.

    A teen girl might not be what you call a child. But looking back at the time when I was 15-16 even to age 20, I feel that I was in no possible way ready to commit to marriage and children.

    Teen years are a time for learning about yourself and dating other young boys with similar interests, so that eventually you will know what kind of person you are not only attracted to, but will enjoy being with for the rest of your life.

    From what I understand, the FLDS church does not even allow the youth the opportunity to date.

    I understand that if that's how you were raised, it could seem normal and acceptable. But to the rest of the world, it appears to be punishment of the worst kind. They are still children, developing and growing...learning who they are.



  • NY Bill
    May 23, 2008 8:46 p.m.

    Now the whole world should know the law, which varies little from state to state. THE LAWS say children MUST BE IN IMMINENT DANGER OR ALREADY HARMED BY THE PARENT(S)TO BE SEIZED. CPS never follows the law. As the 'spokesperson' for TX CPS said SO SUCCINCTLY, "Our only job is to protect children". As the three Appellate judges pointed out, "No, you also have another job. It's called following the law. You must PROVE the child is in danger, or at the very least provide some real evidence, not just a "story"." Perhaps a few family court judges will get this message...and in the future insist on evidence before they pick up their rubber stamp and approve whatever papers CPS workers put in front of them. Especially the ones that call for SEIZING A CHILD FROM ITS LOVING PARENTS based on flimsy evidence or even NO evidence at all. Lord help us if the TX Supreme Court does anything besides throw the CPS attorneys out the door and tell them never to come back.
    Prosecute crimes, yes. Seize innocent children from innocent mothers? NO! CPS is a national disgrace, period. They seem to catch everybody but the real abusers.

  • Lynn
    May 23, 2008 9:08 p.m.

    Ok,I've had enough of the comparisons between LDS and FLDS, and the allegations that the LDS are apostates who broke away from the FLDS. It's the other way around. They broke away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the TRUE MORMONS. The polygamous groups who broke away from the Church, apostatized, by not following the Prophet Wilford Woodruff. He was given a vision (revelation) of what would happen if polygamy was continued, when it was against the laws of the land. We would have lost the temples, all church property would have been seized, and the Church would have been disbanded. In short, the work of the Restoration would have ground to a halt. It had nothing to do with Utah statehood, and everything to do with protecting the Church. Furthermore, we have the 12th Article of Faith, which says we will obey and sustain the law. This is something the FLDS seem to have forgotten. Now we all see the consequences.

    All of you, stop lumping us together. We, the LDS, and the FLDS, are not the same!

  • genetic issues
    May 23, 2008 10:28 p.m.

    I am terribly sorry that some FLDS have genetic defects. So do others--some handicaps we know are genetic, some we haven't discovered causes for. Should we stop all potential carriers of handicaps from having children, even though some of the children may not be affected or even be carriers? TaySachs? Sickle cell?

    Should we force abortions on anyone carrying a handicapped child? 80% of Down Syndrome children are now aborted. Is that good, or bad?

    The Amish are working on identifying carriers of some of their handicaps, and I'll bet my boots that this will lead to careful selection of marriage partners. Might among the FLDS.

    For the posters on inbreeding--there is a difference between inbreeding and recessive genes being matched. If two people are closely related, there is a higher chance of recessive characteristics showing up. The mere fact that a recessive characteristic shows up does not mean that inbreeding has happened--blond or red hair and blue eyes, for example--our children have variations of both. My husband and I aren't related within at least 300 years. All inbreeding isn't negative--line and inbreeding is done among animals to fix positive traits. Let's be scientifically accurate, please.

  • Ford Texas
    May 24, 2008 12:31 a.m.

    CPS is out of control. They make $3,000 to $5,000 for each child they place into foster care. When they saw this compound with all those dollar signs flashing. Can anyone say Jackpot? They deny due process and can take your children just because your unhappy neighbor makes false statements against you. Then on top of all this they deny the Authority of the upper court that said you had NO ATHORITY to take these children. CPS needs a full over haul. We need to require everyone involved in the stupidity to take a course on the Constitution. Fire everyone that doesn't make the grade starting with the Governor of Texas and Judge Walther's. Then give CPS about as mush Authority as an unarmed (no tanks or machine guns)security guard. Require them to follow all laws setting due process as the standard. Demand that all children remain with their parents until due process is complete. Require a full investigation into all Doctors and pharmaceutical companies that is pushing their poison down these helpless children for the sake of profit. Set stiff Penalties for those in charge. In short, We need to protect our children from CPS

  • Anonymous
    May 24, 2008 12:46 a.m.

    Obviously, the FLDS people are not reading the book of Mormon...it says in the book that having many wives and concubines is an abomination to the Lord. Warren Jeffs is not a prophet at all. He is a fraud and has taken his power over the wall and brought all this misery to his people. His father, grandfathers were little men who wanted power that was not granted to them.

  • Sharon
    May 24, 2008 8:19 a.m.

    OHHHHH YES !!...I watched Willie Jessop lie through his teeth on Larry King and the Jessop woman right along with him, but Big Willie did admit he likes to watch TV and I bet it aint the History channel either...lol...Big Willie was quite smug in his reply to welfare fraud (BLEEDING THE BEAST)by the way that would be us taxpayers....In Willie's words...did he not say, "since there are no children to eat the cheese, it had to be destroyed, so now the women will have to go on welfare"? I about choked on that one !! Someone needs to show them how to make cheese..if their's spoils that easy...

  • To: OH! come on! | 5:07 p.m
    May 24, 2008 12:28 p.m.

    They also used local high school buses to take the kids out of the ranch. Why aren't you blaming them? If they used their buses they must be responsible right? The community came together to help people in need, and used whatever recourses they had available.

  • Sharon
    May 24, 2008 2:44 p.m.

    For those who watched Larry King Thursday evening May 22..correct me if I am wrong. Didnt Jessop tell Larry ay one point in the show, that she didnt know where her husband was..that they didnt live together...then later on in the show, Jessop, said she was not married ???? I have always been told...its easy to repeat the truth, but hard to repeat a lie !

  • Delia
    May 25, 2008 8:13 a.m.

    I am ashamed that the State of Texas has obviously also been brainwashed along with all those pathetic women whose men have run and hidden. It has never been explained why all those children have evidence of broken bones. I am sure the child welfare system had ample reason to investigate. This is not over. What has become of the rights of these children? Who is looking after those? Who is funding those controlling males who are running things for the FLDS???

  • Penna
    May 27, 2008 8:50 a.m.

    To NY Bill-- You spoke of "seizing children from their innocent mothers"... How can these mothers be innocent? They themselves, were more than likely raped by their "uncle/husband" at fourteen or fifteen years of age and willfully hand over their daughters to the same type of abusive relationship. I know these women are taught to be obedient, but where I come from- that is just wrong!