I would say these are valid questions for those not familiar with the church's
practice. This is also good for the church, I believe, in that a dialog is
happening to explain, for example, why Mitt gave $4 million to the church; i.e.,
10 percent in tithing. I feel these questions can only help the church, not
'This is also good for the church, I believe, in that a dialog is happening to
explain, for example, why Mitt gave $4 million to the church...' - xscribe |
1:43 p.m. Feb. 3, 2012 While I have my own ideas about why Romney
made the donations. **'Romney paid $3M in federal income tax in
2010' - By Stephen Braun - AP - Published by DSNews - 01/24/12 'At
the same time, Romney gave nearly $3 million to charity about half of that
amount to the Mormon Church which helped LOWER his effective tax rate to a
modest 14 percent...' article I think a more national platform for
dialouge on the Mormon church is a boon. Having a national platform
to to scrutinize your belief's may be painful... but it helps to
disaude any of the...extreme elements from taking any undue actions.
And I am not trying to say that all Mormons are extreme! But as with
the good, there is bad. With any group. Inquisition
Crusades Jihad 9/11, etc, etc.
Benson, Hinckley, and Monson have visited the White House to speak with the
President while they headed the Mormon church. If Romney was president, would
he invite the prophet or would that be seen as "sheepish" behavior?
If people want to limit the LDS church's influence on the White
House, the best way would be to have a Mormon president since every possible
move by the President would be scrutinized.Changing issues, anyone
who thinks giving money to charity is a good tax strategy needs to pull out
their 1040 instructions. You can only claim a small portion of your donations
against your taxes. Generally, it would be like spending a dollar to save 30
cents on your taxes. Why not keep the dollar and pay 30 cents in taxes? You
come out ahead 70 cents.
'Generally, it would be like spending a dollar to save 30 cents on your taxes.'
- John20000 | 3:44 p.m. Feb. 3, 2012 Or... $3 million
Pagan, donating 3 million dollars to charity to reduce ones' tax contribution by
roughly 1 million is not a sound investment if Romney's goal was to increase the
amount he himself keeps.
I welcome the public dialogue about our beliefs, practices and lifestyle. I
think the best approach is to be honest, forthright, and not defensive, and
remember that our actions speak louder than our words.But I also
think that the typical misperceptions and suspicions will continue to persist.
My 8th grade son told me last night that some kids at school keep saying that
Mormons practice polygamy, or asking about it. When I asked how he responds, he
said, "Oh, I just laugh and say, 'That's totally not true.'" He's not
the least bit uncomfortable or offended when kids at school say these kinds of
things, which is great and hopefully disarming. But what concerns me is that
these kids are probably getting these ideas from their parents, who are too lazy
to get their facts correct before sharing their opinions with their kids.Of course, there will continue to be people and groups that strongly
disagree with us on some very significant issues, and we have to learn to either
find common ground or disagree respectfully. Some disagreements may never be
While not of the LDS Faith, I do have several LDS members I associate with at
work and a number of others who participate in recreational activities that I
do. These people are as normal as one can get compared to the rest of society. I
find them intelligent and can hold a conversation with anyone about any topic. I
can also say that about other friends who are not LDS members. The point of the
matter is that many who post on here, such as Pagan, seem to only know a certain
type of member that is constantly referred to. I say move out of Utah and join
the human race if you want to find LDS people who are making a difference in
their occupations and communities. Your view is much to narrow of the LDS
society as a whole.
Pagan, extreme Mormons susceptible to 9/11-type behavior? Inquisition or Jihad?
"etc, etc." Crazed MoTab soprano running down 5th avenue with gas cans
yelling 'Monson Akbar!'? Highly doubtful.
Mitt Romney an upper level leader in the church? Hardly. Being a Stake
President is no more than middle management. Most likely the lowest managerial
position of Mitts career. IF he was an Area Authority 70 or a real 70, then
he'd be in the upper level of leaders.The only people having
questions are the stupid ones that don't bother to do research for themselves
and listen to their pastor.Pagan, again, have an original thought.
Cut and paste doesn't take any thinking.
The observation I have of those who slam the LDS Church are who essentially the
ones (group) who voted in the majority in South Carolina are jealous (of
Mormons)as a whole. Honestly, it appears that they voted against
Romney instead of for Gingrich. It was so blatant that it didn't make a wrinkle
in the support Romney had already gained and since. It is laughable to say the
least.This whole idea will bear out among those that call good,
evil, and evil, good. Those who take the word of others when it
comes to putting down the LDS Church and not look for themselves nor take the
time to investigate it themselves are the ones who are the "sheep."
'Pagan, extreme Mormons susceptible to 9/11-type behavior?' - Moontan | 5:42
p.m. Feb. 3, 2012 Did you even READ my post? 'And
I am not trying to say that all Mormons are extreme!' - Pagan | 2:51 p.m. Feb.
3, 2012 Dear lord! After I SPECIFY to not generalize
Mormons... people claim I am, regardless. Are you trying
to say that EVERY Mormon is perfect, so pure, they can do no wrong?
**'Ex-seminary principal Michael Pratt pleads guilty in sex case' - By Sara
Israelsen-Hartley, Deseret News - 06/02/10 We both know that is not
Yes, I understood your opinion isn't that all Mormons are extreme. Your position
is very clear. But when 9/11, Jihad, etc., are mentioned, the clear implication
is that some extreme Mormons may fit that level of barbarity. This I doubt. And
of course I don't think Mormons are perfect beings. We'd not need Christ if we
were. The attitude that the abominable behavior of a member of a
group somehow impugns the group itself is usually a facile argument used by
agnostics and atheists to attack religious belief. And only religious belief.
They dare not apply that argument to any secular group, and that fact betrays
their motives. An atheist robs a bank; you won't hear the national atheist group
saying "well then, we are all bad." But if a seminary
principle does something immoral, they offer it as proof that the LDS Church is
a corrupting influence. That's just flawed thinking.
Feminism is a problem in our world. Few ever want to bring it up. Few dare
argue with it or stand up to it. Yes, I'm happy woman are presidents of
countries and moving to the top of all fields, they will solve many problems in
the world and cause less wars-----HOWEVER-- there are some negative side
effects. American culture takes it too far and begins to say women are good,
men are bad. (Little wonder more men are becoming feminine---to please and be
accepted.) Christ came to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the
comfortable. His Church is on the earth to do the same. All Christian
churches are on the same team to stand up to secularism and media and
What an odd paradox. People call Mitt Romney a flip flopper because he seems to
have changed his position on social issues from his administrative stance in
Mass as governor, to a more conservative position as he runs for the POTUS. In reality it shows his ability to function according to his oath of
office to represent his states constitution and the people he was sworn to
serve, inspite of its position to his church's beliefs. still, they fear his
willingness to do the same in Washington. He walks the walk, not just talks the
talk.If you replaced the name Mormon with Muslim, Wiccan or other
minority description, cries of bigotry and racism would never end. That simple
test clearly highlights the bigotry which is cavalierly leveled at the Mormons
while "liberal minded" evangelicals hide behind their piety.When Romney keeps his most important covenants, his integrity gets blasted as
"wanting to take over the world". When Gingrich violates his
covenants, he is hailed as progressive and forthright.Interesting
The level of ignorance and misunderstanding is phenomenal. The LDS faith has
been on this continent for nearly 182 years now, and those who claim it is
non-Christian definitely know nothing at all about the theology. Or, they may
claim it's non-Christian because it doesn't coincide perfectly what THEIR brand
of Christianity--in which case, why don't they make the same assertions about
the Catholics? And, I view the Priesthood as more of a matter of
RESPONSIBILITY, as opposed to authority. I think most experienced and informed
observers would argue that the women are the onces with the real power and
influence. Also, if people act like sheep, it's because they CHOOSE to act like
sheep--not because it is required by the Gospel of Salvation. You'll always
have those who are looking for someone else to make all the decisions and take
charge, but that doesn't include all of us.
Newintown is spot on. And I find another interesting paradox: anti-Mormons who
frequently visit Mormon websites. Go figure. I do not believe one
must handle rattlesnakes to prove one's salvation, yet several churches do. Nor
do I pass out in church, or speak in tongues, yet most religious television
stations show exactly that. But I would never dream of making antagonistic
visits to their websites. Sometimes a person who yells 'the sky is
falling' is simply looking for affirmation that it isn't. Other times, they want
assurance that it is - an "am I right?" plea. But a person
of firm convictions has no need to rain on anybody's parade.
Re: Moontan: But a person of firm convictions has no need to rain on anybody's
parade.But,All their creeds were an abomination in his sight that those
professors were all corrupt, JS History 1:19,RE: Middle of the Road,
take the time to investigate It,[OK] themselves are the ones who are the
"sheep."?And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one
fold, and one shepherd.(John 10:16)Who are the sheep(gentiles).Be it known
therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and
that they will hear it.(Acts 28:28)Again I ask: Did Israel not understand?
First, Moses says, "I will make you envious by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation that has no understanding." And Isaiah
boldly says, "I was found by those who did not seek me; I revealed myself
to those who did not ask for me."(Romans 10:19-20 NIV)Neither the Nephites
nor the Laminites can meet this qualification.
@Sharrona: But that conviction isn't used as a weapon of condemnation or
criticism. The statement isn't used to condemn Baptists and Catholics to Hell,
or to deny their status as a Christian. The claim "you're not a real
Christian" isn't directed by Mormons toward any Christian community. It's
solely reserved for us, by others.
Moontan,I love your screen name. Also, your comments. And, why would
people be leery of others who are willing to jump out of bed at one am to help
you bail your flooded basement, or take the midnight shift at watching your
children while you are at the hospital with a sick one, or good works ad
infinitum? Plus, other people of other faiths can take comfort in the fact that
many Mormon converts drop out after a short time due to lack of commitment or
Sorry, JayTeeHave to disagree.While LDS women, as do women in
general, have potential power and influence, that power and influence can be
and is often constrained, both inside and outside the home and church.Do women in the Church even decide who will be in leadership positions of the
women's organizations? NoWomen are excluded from real decision and
policy-making in the Church, from local levels to SLC headquarters.
Just remember back in the 1800's South Carolina seceded from the Union and when
they voted for Gingrich, accepting his immorality, his ethics violations and his
cute one liners, they spiritually seceded from the Union. They also threw out
the espoused standing of the Republicans of family values, something which Newt
has shown he does not espouse. I believe people can change, but I do not see
Newt changing, just being coy. Harry Reid would have lost in
Nevada, but his opponent was so stupid and her staff were absolutely clueless
that when she stated Nevada should not vote for a person from the Mormon cult
she lost. Why, because she failed to realize just how many LDS there are in
Nevada. Had she kept her mouth shut we would not have to have Harry Reid as a
sitting Senator. However, maybe it was good then we would not have another
religious bigot in Congress.
Re: Pagan | 7:31 p.m. Feb. 3, 2012 "And I am not trying to say that
all Mormons are extreme!"That's mighty generous admission and I
think all intelligent level headed adults would tend to go along with your
admission. Only a fool tries to tie everyone in any religion or organization
with the same ribbon. Come to think of it most intelligent level headed adults
don't think the good folks in San Francisco are all extreme.Just
good common sense.
The use of the comparison of stakes to dioceses adds fuel to the Dentonian claim
that Romney was or is a "high church official". The comparison is
very weak. In a lot of ways a comparison of LDS Church Areas to Catholic
dioceses would be more appropriate. They have similar membership.With only about 5,000 Mormons in his stake, Mitt Romney presided over fewer
people than some Catholic priests do. There is one Catholic parish in Metro
Detroit that has 15,000 members. LDS stakes virtually never have over 20 wards
and branches. Catholic dioceses regularly have several hundred parishes. The
comparison does not work.
On the tithing percentage it should be emphasized that this was self-identified
Mormons surveyed. This does not reflect many of the people who have their names
on the records of the Church, and may even show up at meetings on rare
occasions, but do not feel like openly saying they are Mormons.
Barnes sense of what is legal is very disturbing. There are no laws against
religious organizations attempting to inflence public policy.Beyond
this, Barnes is ignoring the fact that the Church does not attempt to exert
pressure on elected officials directly. If this is really a concern she has,
there are two other candidates in the Republican Primary that she should object
to because there are documented cases of officials in their Church trying to
inflence directly the votes on policy issues of members of that religion.Yet Barnes is raising the issue where it has no relevance. This is
probably because she would be fully exposed as the anti-religion radical she is
if she spoke her ideas in relation to religions that are socially acceptable.
My beliefs compel everything good in my life. I love life and I am happy. I'm
not ignorant, I've reasoned. I'm not blinded by anything, I'm sober. I have seen
the great things my religion has done for the world, and I've seen the truth and
power in this church. These things all give me reason to be happy. The entire
doctrine, at it's core, of this church is calculated to always help others. If
that design, to help others and be happy, is disconnected from the world- then I
hope the rest the world will understand when I think their questioning my
beliefs is a bit peculiar.If they want to learn more about the LDS
Church and whether they think we believe in something good or crazy, then go for
it. I'd encourage more people to be informed instead of listening to the media
circus. But as for being weird, those 'beliefs in question' give me a far more
grounded life, more grounded in reality, etc. than anyone I've met who followed
the values the rest of the world says is right.
For all the attention given to Mormonism and what it means in the context of
Romney's campaign, very little effort has been made in the mainstream media to
openly discuss the primary concerns and misconceptions. I would like to see an
article in the New York Times or the Washington Post written by an actual expert
on Mormonism (someone like Kathleen Flake, Joanna Brooks, Richard Bushman, or,
if you don't trust it if it's written by a Mormon, Jan Shipps) confronting some
of the common rumors about what Mormons do and don't believe: explaining
garments, theosis, exaltation, priesthood, church governance, Christology, and
so forth.In the alternative, I'd settle for journalists covering
Mormonism discovering that 1) the LDS Church has PR and media relations
departments they can consult, 2) it has websites you can read, and 3) there's
this organization called FAIR.
Pagan,You'll always have questionable ideas about Romney, and none
for BO.BO spends more than twice what Mitt makes in a year for one
vacation without paying taxes, but you question Romney payments.Go
How funny to see "educated" people be so uninformed. If they would
stop talking to each other and reinforcing their own perceptions and maybe oh, I
don't know, go talk to Mormons, they would come away with their
"fears" resolved and confident that Mormons are good, decent people.
Re: Red Corvette | 8:21 p.m. Feb. 4, 2012 "Rather we are
former-Mormons showing others the way out"If I were for truth
in any religion I wouldn't seek it from an apostate. People that find the total
commitment Christianity requires don't need help in "finding the way
I still sense a bit of insecurity and a persecution complex on the part of
Mormons. On the issue of male authoritarianism, it is true and a
fiction to say otherwise, even though no one wants to admit it. And on
separation of church and state, I think there is a lot of "wink-wink"
that goes on in Utah.If the Mormon Church wants to be a truly world
religion, it has to be more secure with itself, not be thin-skinned, and not be
so closely identified with on political party, which it is.
Red Corvette,Do you believe that claim?Contending with
another's beliefs fights truth, destroys peace, and contending literally is
'looking back'. Establishing your own experiences is one thing. This would be
looking forward as you would only be looking to your beliefs. This is peaceful.
Any amount of disputing or voiced disagreement is looking backwards. This
contending over beliefs destroys peace. This is one of the most fundamental
principles of existence. Do you deny this?Alma 30:40-41 - These two
verses answer your claim and stand as evidence as to the only real motive behind
anyone disputing or contending with the church or its members.All my
experiences, even all of everyone else's experiences testify that this principle
is true. It's the most basic principle of peace. You have all the evidences you
need in the Book of Mormon to know this is true. If you accept it, fine. If you
do not, fine. But going through every doctrine, highlighting things you would
contend with, and trying to tell others that their own experiences are false-
these things are not "looking forward" and I have proven this to you.
Would you deny it even now?
Re: Esquire | 8:45 a.m. Feb. 5, 2012"If the Mormon Church wants to be
a truly world religion"Actually the LDS Church is active in
every corner of the earth where Christians are allowed to assembly. There is no "wink-wink" in Utah State government. We the people
elect those whose beliefs most closely follow our own. Isn't that also the way
it is done in Chicago?
Many concerns about Romney are legit...More right wing religious decision
making?Favoring of the wealthy in finance and tax policy?Less
concern for the less fortunate among us?He speaks about foreign policy
with a "hot trigger finger"?Women's rights?He is unable to
answer how he will fix the problems that were initiated in the Bush years?Even if Romney tries, apparently his core values come from his LDs Church
teachings. Can he temper or deny his beliefs in his decision making and come to
a center point for the nation? Much of our country does question Romney on
these, and other issues.
Oh my gosh! This is so unbelievable. People must sit around thinking all kinds
of paranoid visions of what the Mormons think and believe. For one
thing...tithing...the BIBLE says 10% belongs to the LORD. Do you believe the
Bible or not? Members give 10% because they faithfully believe the Bible and it
is up to them whether they want to tithe or not. Take over the
world? Because there are missionaries all over the world? Doesn't the BIBLE
say to go and take the word of God to all corners of the world? Again, do you
believe the Bible or not?Could it be that the Mormon people are
different and appear strange because they actually believe and try to follow the
actual teachings of the Bible?Men in control...again, the writers
have obviously never attended a Ward or Stake correlation meeting. You will
find the Mormon church produces more "Ann Romneys" that you can begin
to count. I mentioned in a correlation meeting one time that I read that Mormon
women were said to be dominated by men. Everybody in the room laughed so hard
they were rolling in their seats.
Sorry SLOA lot you know about the internal workings of the LDS Church.
LDS women are absolutely amazing! My mother, my wife, my daughters are all
amazing! You may think you are well-informed on this topic. Guess again. It
was Christ himself who selected his Apostles(all males). The world need not
pretend to second-guess the LDS Church. It is after all The Church of Jesus
Christ. There is far too much evidence to believe otherwise. Nor do we worry
about being seen by outsiders as male authoritarian. The most important
influence a woman can ever exercise is within the walls of her home. Women are
doing wonderful things in many realms and domains in the world AND in the LDS
Church None of which are more significant than in her home.
Article quote: "Romney especially struggled among born-again/evangelical
Christians who threw most of their support behind a thrice-married Catholic
rather than back Romney..."Actually, that quote is factually
incorrect.Here's how it SHOULD read: "Romney
especially struggled among born-again/evangelical Christians who threw most of
their support behind a thrice-married Catholic and an admitted serial adulterer
rather than back Romney..."So, South Carolina voters prefer
someone who can't keep the most sacred of vows over a moral, scandal-free person
who happens to be a Mormon.But, hey, there's nooooo discrimination
or bigotry against members of the LDS church.No sir-eeeee!.....
@ Rifleman, being everywhere does not yet make it a world religion. It's not
there yet. And I guess you don't get the "wink-wink" thing, and if
you don't think there is intervention, you are surely naive and are not paying
attention to current events.
@TruthSeeker-- I have to disagree with your assumption. I am the Relief Society
president for our local branch (Relief Society is the women's organization in
the LDS church) and as the president I was given the obligation and freedom to
choose the sisters who serve in our presidency with me. The presidency consists
of a president, a first counselor (over education) and a second counselor (over
home and family enrichment). I as well as the women responsible for our Young
Women's organization and our Primary organization are included in the
decision-making process of our local branch. Our opinions and requests are
encouraged and often utilized. What you don't understand is that we have all
the "power" we want. "Power" is not part of our religion
and it should not be part of ANY religion. Kindness and gentle persuasion are
far more effective tools to accomplish the work of the church. Authoritarian
attitudes have no place in our religion.
I never thought I'd see Senator Reid being in Congress as a good thing, but I do
think he is a good example to point to when outsiders think all Mormons are just
right-wing Republicans and would rule that way. And by the way, I never heard
any fear from anyone about the Senate Majority Leader being Mormon. So, in the
end, this is mostly about politics, not religion. Romney, by the way, is
being accused by some conservatives as being too liberal. Good news though is
that in the Florida primary, Romney got a lot more of the Christian vote than he
did in S.C. And Florida is a much more important state to win in the general
election, so I'm rather hopeful that this worry about a Mormon theocracy in the
White House will fade in the coming months.
I see Lehi's and Nephi's vision of the Tree of Life more and more today. The
"Tall and Spacious Building" that floats in the air without any
foundation, full of well-dressed and sophisticated people laughing and pointing
fingers at those congregating around the Tree of Life (Love of God) and
beckoning/taunting them to come and join them in their grand building and give
up their family goal, to ridicule and embarrass the followers of good -- because
those in the building don't understand, are unwilling to expend their energy to
find the path and taste of the fruit themselves...Also similar to the
Sower of Seeds in the New Testament.. some seeds fall on rocky ground, some in
shallow soil, and wither away, but some seeds find good soil and are nourished
and take root and florish....God will force no man to heaven...
The Mormons are (a) wealthy, (b) have lots of money behind the scenes, and (c)
have their hands into a lot of things, therefore (d) there MUST be something
sinister going on. This sounds like the same worn out canard that has been
thrown at Jews for centuries.As for separation of church and state,
I don't hear any such complaints about the National Council of Churches (which
has been mixing religion with liberal politics for decades). Similarly, those
who complain about Mormon involvement in the Proposition 8 campaign voiced no
such concern with Unitarian and other liberal religious involvement in the No on
8 campaign. As a Mormon and former Unitarian I find this rather amusing, not to
mention blatantly hypocritical.
Esquire,So, by our spreading the gospel to be available to anyone
looking for it on any corner of the Earth, by our building multiple temples on
every continent, by our making a name for ourselves as being honest and true to
our word, as being genuine people who hold to their beliefs so that the entire
world will have a truthful example of what our belief system supports and
proclaims- by all of that we aren't a world religion? World doesn't mean
percentages. Alaska has a population of .7 million while New York has nearly 20
million. Alaska is a much bigger state. Our calling ourselves a "world
religion" or even a large religion may not be representative of the
size.In case you didn't know- we have beliefs about proclaiming the
truth to every corner of the Earth, beliefs about being great examples, and
beliefs about being as much as a global influence for good as we can. By our
understanding of "world religion" and by the example I gave you- it is
a highly accurate and truthful statement.Just some food for thought.
As a LDS woman, I have as much say in the leadership of the Relief Society
(women's organization) as I do in who will be called as Bishop. It is not a
matter of asking everyone in the ward (parish, congregation) who they would like
to have serve in that position. The bishop (priest, reverend) prays about who
could and would serve in that position, calls that women in to inquire if she
would be willing to spend 30-40 extra hours a week organizing the women of the
ward, visiting those in need, making visiting teaching assignments,
systematically visiting all of the sisters in the ward, reporting their needs to
the bishop and other leaders of the ward (both male and female), filling out
orders for some families to visit the bishop's storehouse (welfare) and
countless other jobs. And for this service she will receive.....blessings and
satisfaction of a job well done. Yes, several times a year, I will be asked if
I can support her in her calling. If, indeed, I cannot, I have the right to
visit with the bishop and discuss it. Why oh why, does the 'world' think
that we LDS women have no authority, no power over our own lives, are brow
beaten by the men in our lives and that we must cower in a corner because we
CHOSE to become expert at such things as gardening, quilting, raising well-bred
and happy children, sewing, PTA, teaching, farming, leading scout troops, being
compassionate, playing in our local city orchestras, and a myriad of other
things. Some LDS women are CEOs of organizations, but not all even want that.
And believe it or not ALL of these opportunities bring joy and happiness in a
world that is ill-prepared to provide that.....PS paying tithing and
humanitarian and educational funds is something that we willingly do because
others are in need. NO ONE orders it. Thanks for the opportunity to explain a
@no fit in SG:The fact that Romney supported issues in
Massachussetts as governor which were in opposition to his personal beliefs,
because the citizens there favored them, shows that he is quite capable of
fulfilling his oath of office without pandering only to his chosen religion.
Wish the same could be true of POTUS Obama.Problem there is that we
don't know for sure to whom Obama is beholden, only that he doesn't answer to
the people of the US.
Bring it on people of the world!!! The more truth you know, the more you will
want to belong!!
"The real issue for many evangelicals is Mormonism's remarkable success and
rapid expansion," No, this is not the reason evangelicals have
a problem with mormonism. It is the false doctrine, and the mormons insistance
now that they be called Christians, when Joseph Smith did not want to be
identified as, or with, Christians.Evangelicals have issues with the
mormon DOCTRINE.As has been widely reported recently, mormonism
isn't doing as well as they want people to think. They claim 14M members, when
in fact there are only 4-5M practicing, active members. Turns out mormons
account for less than 2% of the population. Why on earth would
evangelicals be worried about the growth of the mormon church?
"No, this is not the reason evangelicals have a problem with mormonism. It
is... Mormons insistance now that they be called Christians, when Joseph Smith
did not want to be identified as, or with, Christians."Huh?
Yeah, having a vision of Christ and telling the world that He told him to
re-establish His church, yeah, that could be described as "not wanting to
be identified as Christian" Too funny.