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Faith

Writer carefully tackles question of sacred LDS undergarment

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  • Liberal Ted Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 10:25 a.m.

    What is strange are the poeple that wear the live strong braclets, or have the ribbons on their cars, or bumper stickers on their cars, or tattoos on their body (magic tattoos maybe), how about people with dozens of piercings-especially through the nose like a bull, or skateboarders wearing tight jeans, or various Christian beliefs wearing the cross, or having statues of Buddha the list can go on and on.

    Yet I just never see articles about these topics other than tattoos and why people do it. Not sure why people care about what underwear other people wear.

    The nation has trillions of debt, reckless spending with no end in sight. Yet here we are discussing whether or not a group of people can wear underwear that they want to wear for religious reasons.

    This is why journalism is dying or is dead.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Jan. 26, 2012 10:38 a.m.

    Be warned when you go to the blog that there are some advertisements at the top that are a not PG.

  • bleeding purple Santa Ana, CA
    Jan. 26, 2012 10:56 a.m.

    I sure hope we get to hear what kind of underwear Obama wears, or Newt wears ... really? Romney knows how to run a successful business, loves his family, and actually practices what he preaches as far as religion goes. Isn't that what's important? Do we really need to speculate about his underwear?

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 11:23 a.m.

    Tempest. In. Teapot.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 11:25 a.m.

    Why is there a picture of the politician holding the obligatory baby in relation to this article?

  • NedGrimley Brigham City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 11:28 a.m.

    Really?? This is news? Let it go...

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 11:36 a.m.

    'I sure hope we get to hear what kind of underwear Obama wears, or Newt wears ... really? Romney knows how to run a successful business...' - bleeding purple | 10:56 a.m. Jan. 26, 2012

    So, we have to know what undear Obama wears now?

    **'Obama shows birth certificate' - By Ben Feller - AP - Published by DSNews - 04/27/11

    And your upset that people question Romney's undergarments??

    But 'not' Obama's long form birth certificate he got from Hawaii with a legal exception?

    Nothing is enough for some people!

    As for Romney being a 'successful businessman'...

    **'GOP rivals turn Romneys jobs record against him' - By Kasie Hunt - AP - Published by DSnews - 01/09/2012

    'A separate AP analysis found that at least 4,000 workers lost their jobs at 45 companies bought by Bain...' - article

    Tell that...

    to Phyllis Detro.

    **'Mitt Romney as job creator clashes with Bain record of job cuts' - By Lisa Lerer, Bloomberg News - Published by DSNews - 07/20/11

    "Employees who lost jobs at Bain-controlled companies (sic) say they still hold Romney responsible.
    "I would not vote for him for anything," said Phyllis Detro, 68, who lost her job..."

    Profit does NOT mean American jobs.

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 11:44 a.m.

    "Isn't that what's important? "

    No, we're electing a President, not Father of the Year. What matters most is his direction for the nation and I disagree very much for it. So regardless of how well he runs a business, loves his family, or practices what he preaches, when there's an alternative like Obama who I agree with much more on policy, I'm going to support Obama (though it helps that Obama's a good family man too, this would be harder if Obama were like Gingrich with Obama's policy positions).

  • New Yorker Pleasant Grove, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:04 p.m.

    @ Red Corvette,

    I've been going to the temple for almost 50 years and don't have the slightest idea about what you're referring to. Those who understand the sacred nature of the LDS undergarment certainly "know" not to "spin" things here in the DN comments--whether they are old or young.

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:05 p.m.

    I knew this would come up. It's going to get uglier and meaner. Fasten your seatbelts!

    Go Mitt!!!!

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:29 p.m.

    'The fact that this even came up as an issue is pathetic' - Counter Intelligence | 12:19 p.m. Jan. 26, 2012

    I agree.

    And who, brings it up?

    **'Fox News host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News - 07/17/11

    **'Rick Perry backer decries Mitt Romney, Mormons' - By Jamshid Ghazi Askar, Deseret News - 10/08/11

    **Cult of Mormon comment leads Newt Gingrichs Iowa political director, Craig Bergman, to resign - By Tad Walch Deseret News 12/14/11

    **Rick Santorum-backing pastor plays the Mormon cult card By Joseph Walker Deseret News 01/20/2012

    Not. Obama.

  • RanchHand Huntsville, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:32 p.m.

    @Counter Intelligence;

    Finally!!! A comment from you I agree with.

  • Utes21 Salt Lake City, ut
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:48 p.m.

    This is getting to the point where the Media is getting desperate to report anything about LDS beliefs and Romney. If people wanted to know this they can read about it on any church related website. We are voting for the guy to be the next president,I personally could care less what any canidates beliefs were, all I care about is if he can get the job done.

  • O'really Idaho Falls, ID
    Jan. 26, 2012 12:49 p.m.

    Pagan- let it go. Take a breather. This is an article about LDS undergarments, not about Obama.

  • Madden Herriman, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 1:01 p.m.

    @Pagan - I always enjoy your fact-filled posts. But to say "Profit does NOT mean American jobs?" Nice tag-line, no substance. I am in a small business running a department, and I can tell you that if the business is not profitable enough you need to either increase revenue, cut costs or go out of business. Yes, business sometimes feels callous, and laying people off stinks, but it is sometimes the best cost-cutting move you can make. In some cases, there are ways to turn things around without layoffs, but they tend to take more time and you risk losing everything.

    To act like businesses can print their own money and not make hard decisions is wrong. Unlike the US Govt, you either get in the black or EVERYONE will be out of a job. Blanket statements like yours about Romney and jobs are getting boring.

  • Mayfair City, Ut
    Jan. 26, 2012 1:14 p.m.

    Thanks McKay. Liked you when you wrote for DesNews. Had a few qualms about a Mitt Newsweek article of yours, but glad to say I enjoyed this, particularly your quoting the Church's website and Elder Asay's awesome quote.

  • bleeding purple Santa Ana, CA
    Jan. 26, 2012 1:29 p.m.

    Pagan, this was an article about underwear, not birth certificates. As for being a successful businessman ... you have to run your business within the tax laws and rules of the country and sometimes to be profitable you have to lay people off and sometimes you even move your business overseas.

  • Liberal Ted Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 3:01 p.m.

    pagan

    There is a huge difference in determining if someone is qualified or capable of being president. The Constitution clearly outlines who qualifies for the presidency. Underwear is not written anywhere on the constitution. So the president can wear boxers, briefs, religious, or no underwear or whatever they care to wear silk, cotton, poly etc.

    The Constitution does state that the president must be a natural born citizen of the United States.

    That's the difference.

    It's amazing that someone that collects headlines and newsarticles, hasn't taken the time to read the constitution.

  • A1994 Centerville, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 4:27 p.m.

    "Profit does NOT mean American jobs."

    Ah the party machine is alive and working. Please do some research about the companies that Bain Capital has helped. Ever hear of Staples? Sports Authority? Brookstone? Do people work at those companies, or do they just run themselves?

  • Cora Smith BOUNTIFUL, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 4:39 p.m.

    The Amish wear top hats and beards, black clothing, and live their live's like it was the 1800's. Don't have to think to hard as to why they are left alone, and other religious organizations are constantly being looked at and making the news. Do we?

  • JohnInSLC Cottonwood Heights, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 4:46 p.m.

    "Not. Obama."

    Yet.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Jan. 26, 2012 5:17 p.m.

    Third try
    We need to dissect people's underwear now? Is this a necessary topic or important topic?

    re:Madden
    Pagan was right. Profit doesn't always equal jobs. Bain and other private equity firms make money whether the companies they acquire go bankrupt or not.

    How?

    "If a private-equity firm wants to make money, it has to improve the value of the companies it buys.
    Historically private-equity firms had a powerful incentive to make companies perform better. In the past decade, though, that calculus changed. Having already piled companies high with debt in order to buy them, many private-equity funds had their companies borrow even more, and then used that money to pay themselves huge special dividends. This allowed them to recoup their initial investment while keeping the same ownership stake. Before 2000, big special dividends were not that common. But between 2003 and 2007 private-equity funds took more than seventy billion dollars out of their companies. These dividends created no economic valuethey just redistributed money from the company to the private-equity investors.

    As a result, private-equity firms are increasingly able to profit even if the companies they run go under."
    (The New Yorker)

  • Pagan Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 5:27 p.m.

    'Third try' - Truthseeker | 5:17 p.m. Jan. 26, 2012

    You notice that too, huh?

    Apparently the term 'civil discourse'...

    is code for:

    'Whatever promotes my agenda.'

    NOT, facts.

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Jan. 26, 2012 5:34 p.m.

    @ Red Corvette

    "Have to love the new spin on the purpose of wearing garments has changed too. All old members of the church know different." What happened to stopping bullets and protecting against fire? There's always a new spin on EVERYTHING that's questioned ... the spins change to best suit society through the decades.

    @MoJules

    "Be warned when you go to the blog that there are some advertisements at the top that are a not PG." Thanks Mo. I'm pretty sure we're all adults in here though. We'll survive a non-PG AD. If you're reading the paper with your toddler though, then kudos to a kid with a bright future!

  • VA Saint Chester, VA
    Jan. 26, 2012 5:47 p.m.

    Completely inappropriate to discuss in the mainstream media.

  • Where's Stockton ??? Bowling Green, OH
    Jan. 26, 2012 5:50 p.m.

    Red Corvette

    I really think you have it totally confused. Like Red Corvettes from the first one that rolled off a production line the designs of the garment like the design of the Corvette have gone through some obvious changes from the old simple one style fits all of quite a few years back to having several models with various options as we know of them to day. Where you are obviously mistaken...is thier purpose which there has been no change in thier purpose as you wrongfully imply. Despite the noteriety of being able to say "Hey I own a Corvette." which despite it's price tag is still only an A to B form of Conveyance... Whereupon the garment basically is as always still used primarily to remind us to ask for directions once in a while on our own personal A-B journey's from here to eternity. Your information from old timers is definitely wrong.

  • Rational Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 26, 2012 6:42 p.m.

    @Pagan,

    Facts are not really factual when they carefully selected, sorted, and bent to serve one's purpose rather than the whole truth.

    You above all should know this.

  • LValfre CHICAGO, IL
    Jan. 26, 2012 8:42 p.m.

    @Rational,

    "Facts are not really factual when they carefully selected, sorted, and bent to serve one's purpose rather than the whole truth."

    Check your churches facts ... Don't look the other way on things either, be objective and RATIONAL. Then tell us the truth.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 9:56 p.m.

    This is a very well reasoned and thoughtful approach to the issue. These are sacred things that should not be treated lightly. On the other hand, the existence of these things is not secret.

    There are many religion groups that wear specific clothing. The Jewish examples given here are probably the best analogies. Sikhs wearing turbans and white clothing may be another good analogy. Sadly in two states that still prevents Sikhs from serving as public school teachers. As far as I know garment wearing Mormons have not been excluded from teaching in the public schools on the "no religious clothing" rule. I half wish someone would try, just to expose how truly discriminatory such rules are.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 10:03 p.m.

    I really, really hope this does not lead to questions about other candidates clothing decisions.

    I can see why people bring this issue up. It is in part because of people out there who misrepresent the purpose and nature of the clothing in question and mock it. Hopefully we can find ways to speak about this civilly, respectfully and in a way that people realize there is nothing evil or sinister involved.

  • John Pack Lambert of Michigan Ypsilanti, MI
    Jan. 26, 2012 11:31 p.m.

    Since someone brought up Amish I think it is worth noting a few things. The Amish do not "live their lives like it is the 1800s", they try to live their lives in a plain, modest, unpretentious manner. They actually do accept some new forms of technology, but they weigh how a new form will effect their community.

    Anyone who has been following the news closely would know that recently some Amishmen were sent to jail in Kentucky for refusing to put gaudy, orange signs on their buggies. They were willing to place reflective tape and red lanterns on their buggies, which were just as good, but the state did not want to cooperate. The Amish have actually been sent to prison more often than other religious groups, and for "crimes" like refusing gaudy tape or not sending their children to far off, new fangled schools where they would be disconnected from the community.

    One reason you hear very little of the Amish is that in general they view it against their religion to vote. This is also true of the Jehovahs Witnesses.

  • Dennis Harwich, MA
    Jan. 27, 2012 6:20 a.m.

    If you're wearing a particular kind of underwear because you won't be considered a valiant member of the Church if you don't it can raise a few eyebrows. It's no big deal to members but imagine what the world outside of Utah thinks about this.

  • Uncle Charles Where freedom and liberty reign, utah
    Jan. 27, 2012 6:32 a.m.

    Great to see our Mormon scholar LValfre is on here to keep everyone honest; according to LValfre's version of honesty.

    Interesting that you counsel someone to not look the other way on things, be objective and RATIONAL. Who says 'Rational' hasn't done what you recommend? Every think that you are the one who is looking the other way, not being rational or objective?

    Interesting how it's always the other guy's fault, right? Well, I know the truth. I know the LDS church is the Lord's church. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that continuing revelation is on the earth through the Lord's prophet, Thomas Monson. I know Joseph Smith restored the gospel on the earth.

    Now, go be humble, submissive, open heart, read the Book of Mormon, ponder the teachings, pray with sincerity and you too will know the truth of these things. Go and return and report.

  • Twin Lights Louisville, KY
    Jan. 27, 2012 7:22 a.m.

    Trust McKay Coppins to get it right.

    I hope he returns to the DN someday. He is a real talent.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Jan. 27, 2012 8:00 a.m.

    Re:John Pack Lambert of Michigan This is a very well reasoned and thoughtful approach to the issue. These are sacred things that should not be treated lightly. On the other hand, the existence of these things is not secret.

    (Either 3:18)the Lord not work in secret combinations. JS advised against secret societies.

    Jesus answered him, I spoke openly to the world; I always taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, where the Jews always met; and in secret have I said nothing(John 18:20)

    The Bible tells the believer to have his "loins girt about with truth" and to put on the "breastplate of righteousness,"(Ephesians 6:10-17) such metaphorical language never implies Christians are to place their trust in actual physical objects(garments). The idea has No biblical justification

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Jan. 27, 2012 8:06 a.m.

    Re:JohnPackLambert

    It would be helpful if you cited your sources.
    More often than not they appear out of left field.
    Like their incarceration rates and reason being they refuse to attend "far-off, new-fangled schools."

    This is patently false.
    The Amish have their own schools. Amish children only have to attend school until 8th grade, which was affirmed by a Supreme Court case in Wisconsin v Yoder, 1972 which basically found that Amish parents did not have to obey a Wisconsin law because it interfered with their religion.

    You need new sources.

  • Uncle Charles Where freedom and liberty reign, utah
    Jan. 27, 2012 9:42 a.m.

    ___

    Great to see our Mormon scholar LValfre is on here to keep everyone honest; according to LValfre's version of honesty.

    Interesting that you counsel someone to not look the other way on things, be objective and RATIONAL. Who says 'Rational' hasn't done what you recommend? Every think that you are the one who is looking the other way, not being rational or objective?

    Interesting how it's always the other guy's fault, right? Well, I know the truth. I know the LDS church is the Lord's church. I know the Book of Mormon is the word of God. I know that continuing revelation is on the earth through the Lord's prophet, Thomas Monson. I know Joseph Smith restored the gospel on the earth.

    Now, go be humble, submissive, open heart, read the Book of Mormon, ponder the teachings, pray with sincerity and you too will know the truth of these things. Go and return and report.

  • Madden Herriman, UT
    Jan. 27, 2012 10:41 a.m.

    @Truthseeker - don't go changing words around now. Nobody was arguing whether "Profit doesn't ALWAYS equal jobs" (emphasis added). I said as much in my post. You are changing the argument and then tossing out a flippant example of what some equity firms can do to screw up the system (run up debt and take the cash, leaving others empty handed...often the Trump way of making a buck too, right?). You act like somehow this is an indictment of Romney.

    I can find plenty of examples of bad behavior by any type of business or industry, but it makes for a pretty weak attack doesn't it? Didn't most Democrats get tired of GOP attacks on Obama over the deceitfulness of a handful of community organizers (ACORN)? Rather than look for a fair argument, you use the same tactics as your political opposition, running a smear campaign based on unfounded associations. You can do better.

  • MoJules Florissant, MO
    Jan. 27, 2012 11:03 a.m.

    Some people do not think that this is a valid article, so do you want people to do like the one person did, waving around a ladies garment top in mockery, or like the musical, and their mockery? Putting the facts out there can help stop a verbal mockery that is bound to happen. I liked the way he explained it and hopefully people will respect that, I would not make a mockery about any religions clothing.

  • wrz Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 27, 2012 5:34 p.m.

    @Truthseeker:

    "In the past decade, though, that calculus changed."

    What's that to do with Romney? He left Bain nearly a decade ago.

  • wrz Salt Lake City, UT
    Jan. 27, 2012 8:29 p.m.

    John Pack Lambert of Michigan:

    "Sadly in two states that still prevents Sikhs from serving as public school teachers."

    Sikhs (and any other religion) should not be allowed to teach if they wear their religious clothing and such so that it can be viewed. It's all in the name of separation of church and state, i.e., keeping religion our of public schools.

    "As far as I know garment wearing Mormons have not been excluded from teaching in the public schools on the 'no religious clothing' rule."

    Perhaps the reason is is that the garment can't be viewed since it's worn underneath ordinary clothing.

    "I half wish someone would try, just to expose how truly discriminatory such rules are."

    Maybe someone from India who wears a red dot on their forehead for (religious purposes?) should try.

  • Truthseeker SLO, CA
    Jan. 27, 2012 11:26 p.m.

    re:Madden, wrz
    It isn't just what "other" private equity companies do or have done. Like, you said, sometimes there are successes, sometimes failures. Bain made profits even though the some of the companies they invested in went bankrupt. Sometimes the companies, while under Bain's management, took on excess debt and then went bankrupt. One such company was Ampad. Another was Dade Behring (although it eventually recovered after Bain divested itself). In fact, 2 of my (former) neighbors lost their jobs in the Dade deal.

    Romney and his supporters tout his business experience, working at Bain, as an important qualification. It is therefore fair to examine the whole record, not just the successes. Studies on private equity firms have revealed a mixed record in terms of job creation. And private equity managers/CEOs, Romney included, enjoy a preferential tax treatment not available to others doing essentially the same work.

    These are all important issues moving forward. Will Romney's Bain experience shape his economic and tax policies? If so, how, and to what extent? These are issues which will be brought up in the course of the campaign.

  • m.g. scott LAYTON, UT
    Feb. 2, 2012 12:01 p.m.

    Re: Sharrona

    The term "garment" is mentioned in the Bible, and there are a lot of Churches where the pastor or priest wear outward garments to show their outward faith. LDS garments are not for public view, only as personal reminders of the committments made in the Temple.

    Re: Other posts

    AS for people being denied teaching positions because of religious symbols worn, I too agree that is discriminatory. I've heard that some teachers cannot wear a cross around the neck to show their Christianity. That's wrong.