Dr. John Ankerberg has again opened his a Anti Mormon blitz on his TV programs,
just in time for the Primary Elections.
This gem missed the list because it came in 2007"Would the
potential attraction to Mormonism by simply having a Mormon in the White
House threaten traditional Christianity by leading more Americans to a church that some Christians believe misleadingly calls itself Christian, is an
active missionary church, and a dangerous cult?"- Rick
SantorumHow many will vote for this man in the "anyone but
The sad truth is that almost all of the supposed anti-Mormon statements contain
the element of truth, question and common concern. It seems a part of the
problem is Mormonism's push to become a mainstream religion and in the process
they are converting from religion to politics. The FLDS is a religion(strange
and troubled), but the SLC-LDS has become a community of devotional politics.
Disrespectful statements used to belittle Mormons are nothing more than
religious bigotry and it's unfortunate that many Americans seem not to care...as
long as it's against the Mormons. However, the epitome of hypocrisy is exhibited
by mainstream Christians when they engage in such bigotry while crying foul when
the same bigotry is exhibited against them.At the same time,
respectful disagreement and challenging discourse regarding the more dubious
claims made by Mormonism is not bigotry. It's reasonable to provide a legitimate
challenge to some of the more fantastic claims by the church and it's tiresome
to hear the hackneyed term "anti-Mormon" incessantly used by
"...said another MormonVoices managing director, John Lynch. '...so
disrespectful that their only effect will be to increase bigotry against
Mormons.'"It is unthinkable to me that any of the most
extremely disrespectful comments posted here would really be taken seriously by
anyone who cares about independent thought. I would rather expect that most
people would see the bigotry for what it is and refuse to buy into it.
A lot of the statements that some of you folks feel are
"disrespectful" are simply statements of honest, proven fact that
contradict your religious beleifs.Or do you really believe that the
Earth is 6,000 years old and that Noah's flood actually happened?If
I point out the provable falseness of those beliefs, the problem is not that I
am being disrespectful, the problem is that the people clinging to those beliefs
in spite of all evidence to the contrary are declaring themselves to be either
irrational, dishonest, or willfully ignornant.
If I have Bill Maher on my team or championing my cause....I am a loser!
You gotta be kidding me. "The Top 10 Anti-Mormon Statements in 2011"?
Certainly there's more productive news to report on. I didn't get beyond the
title of the article. I'll file this article under my "who cares"
category. An article like this does nothing more than instill frustration
amongst members of the church.
Skeptic has is just right. To even publish an article like this feels a bit
like somebody feels threatened to me.
The LDS church (and other minority religions) discovered long ago that ignoring
bigotry and not confronting it can only lead to another Crystal Night and the
subsequent atrocities.The thought that "I would rather expect
that most people would see the bigotry for what it is and refuse to buy into
it." does not prove to be true, at least among mankind. Humans have an
"us against them" streak in them which cries out for unjust and even
bloody expression. Today's immigration problem is real, but the fires are being
fed by the irrational "us against them" streak to the degree that
reasonable men cannot implement a reasonable solution to the problem. Too many
want "a pound of flesh" before accepting any solution.Some
commenting in these forums are really after a pound of flesh from the Mormons,
from the "illegal" aliens, from the bankers, from the politicians on
the "other" side, from anyone who is not them. The collective voice of
reasonable people has to be encouraged so that the shrill voices of those crying
"Fire, fire!" will not prevail. No, Chicken Little, the sky will not
fall if we don't first collect a pound of flesh.
The best defense is a good offense. The best way to handle these nitwits is to
I would like to gently point out that those who are not in the
"targeted" group find it easy to say that those who are targeted are
just being sensitive. Those who say that this is a non-newsworthy issue should
simply replace the term "mormon" with any other religious, ethnic, or
other social group name and see how shocking it sounds.To those
saying mormons shouldn't feel threatened by comments like these obvoiusly don't
understand the history of the church, or the power of the press.
Mormon theology, teachings given in its Gospel Principle books, Journal of
Discourses, History of the Church books and in talks given by LDS leaders
(apostles, prophets, seventies) DO teach that Mormons will be gods over their
own worlds.Doubt me? This stuff isn't hard to find by going on
lds.org and doing a search.God is as man may become and man is as
God once was. Sound familiar?
The church is viewed as LDS, Inc.
First of all, about our own planets, yes, I believe that and hope for that, but
do I have all the qualifications to do that, no, could take a trillion years.
Try comprehending that. But there is a person, in my opinion who is trying to
have his own planet in just his lifetime here, that is George Soros, who
probably funds most of these people who speak out against the church or anything
good. Second, today I was listening to the scriptures and listened
to Doctrine and Covenants section 134. WOW!!! If anyone has qualms about a
Mormon and bringing their religion into the office of president, this should
calm it. I wrote to Romneys campaign and told them they need to quite some of
Since the term "cult" is seldom if ever defined, I am forced to
conclude that a cult is basically any religion that right wing fundamentalists
don't like.As for getting my own planet, it's interesting that many
people even today think of Heaven as a place where we do nothing but sit and
play harps and sing songs of praise throughout eternity, worlds without end. I
have no singing ability, and don't know the first thing about playing a harp or
any other musical instrument - so if I have any choice in the matter I'll take
the Planet, thank you very much!
When is The Deseret News going to give the Top Ten Anti-Atheist Statements of
Geese and ganders, dear children - geese and ganders.Commentators on
these threads often urge that gays and blacks and those who belong to many other
groups just need thicker skin and claim that being offended is a choice and we
need to get over the whole "PC" movement and move on, etc., etc.,
etc.Now many of those same posters are offended and want to cry foul
when things are uttered that they find offensive.What is good for
the goose is good for the gander and you shouldn't expect to be treated any
better than you treat others.IMNSHO, we should try to be as
inoffensive as possible and treat others the way we wish to be treated. But it really is rather silly to claim unfair treatment when others
react to us the way we react to them.
"God is as man may become and man is as God once was. Sound
familiar?"Yes, Thinkman, it was Irenaeus who first said it
almost 1,500 years ago.
@sashabill"As for getting my own planet, it's interesting that many
people even today think of Heaven as a place where we do nothing but sit and
play harps and sing songs of praise throughout eternity, worlds without end.
"What I find interesting with regards to the planet thing is
that many non-LDS Christians read the "many mansions" verses and think
that is literal enough so really what's the difference between mansion and
planet or some other term for living space? Frankly I'd find the scenary to be
nicer.The real disagreement should be about the matter of spirit
children and infinite progression of Gods. The mere concept of "getting a
planet" shouldn't be the issue though I suppose some people may be using
the phrase "get a planet" to mean "become a God and start your
**'Fox News host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News -
07/17/11 **'Rick Perry backer decries Mitt Romney, Mormons' - By
Jamshid Ghazi Askar, Deseret News - 10/08/11 "(Robert) Jeffress
described Romney's Mormon faith as a 'cult,' and said evangelicals had only one
real option in the 2012 primaries. ... Asked by Politico if he believed Romney
is a Christian, Jeffress answered: 'No.' " **Cult of
Mormon comment leads Newt Gingrichs Iowa political director, Craig Bergman, to
resign - By Tad Walch Deseret News 12/14/11 "Craig Bergman
joined Newt Gingrich's team last Thursday as the Iowa political director for the
Republican frontrunner. He resigned Wednesday after he appeared to call
Mormonism a "cult." When Rick Santorum compared questions
about gay marriage to polygamy, many of my friends on the FB asked 'is that a
jab at Mitt Romney?' My reply was: "If the LDS
church is no longer polygamys, then it would NOT be a jab at Mitt Romney's
faith, correct?" How do you feel about this?
To any poster willing to reply, many get upset about the 'anti-mormon' bias in
the American political system, however: **'Trump on Obama's Birth
Certificate: 'Maybe It Says He's a Muslim' - Fox Nation - 03/30/11
why is it 'not' acceptable to find offense at Mitt Romney's factual LDS
faith... but it IS acceptable to continue to claim that Obama is a
Muslim? When: **'Obama, family attend Christmas church
services' - By Julie Pace - AP - Pulibshed by DSNews - 12/25/11 The
claim that Obama was 'born in Kenya' or is Mulsim... have factually
been proven false... "I, Dr. Chiyome Fukino, director of the
Hawaii State Department of Health, have seen the original vital records
maintained on file by the Hawaii State Department of Health verifying Barack
Hussein Obama was born in Hawaii and is a natural-born American citizen."
- Hawaii: Obama birth certificate is real - USA Today - 07/28/09 -
By Dan Nakaso, The Honolulu Advertiser Again, and again, and
again.... Why is it ok for one (Obama) and 'not' Mitt Romney? Where were these people who find offense about Romney, when it was
being done to Obama? Answer: They participated in it.
Weber State Grad: you said, "It's reasonable to provide a legitimate
challenge to some of the more fantastic claims by the church and it's tiresome
to hear the hackneyed term "anti-Mormon" incessantly used by
oversensitive members."Thank you for your appropriate response
to this article and your forthright comment. I suspect this is a function of
living in Utah more than anything else. In Illinois, Mormons understand what
"anti-Mormon" really is, such as having a high school teacher tell one
of your children that "Mormons are like Nazis" or a Lutheran minister
telling another child that "All Mormons are going to hell."
Personally, I don't worry too much about these things, ultimately believing that
what I do speaks a lot more loudly than what I say about what I believe.
Mormonism is guilty of the same thing they accuse others of dishing out! I've
seen alot of bigotry and "anti" sentiments right here on this board
toward people who believe differently....especially atheists. People who have a
disagreeing opinion, or simply challenge the assertions of Mormonism become
"anti" for simply doing that. It's reasonable to challenge ridiculous
and questionable religious claims made by any church or religion. As (Weber
State Graduate) says...."it's tiresome to hear the hackneyed term
"anti-Mormon" incessantly used by oversensitive members"
especially when they are "anti" toward others who believe differently
than them. I rarely see atheists be as sensitive to challenges as religious
people or call them "anti-atheist". I often think Mormonss become
sensitive to challenges because they often cannot answer the challenges atheists
(and others religions) present so they resort to pulling out the
"anti-Mormon" card instead of answering the challenge with supported
arguments and reasonable discourse. Nobody is "anti-Mormon since Mormons
are free to practice their religion. However, they can't expect all people to be
silent about their disagreement with it when bringing it into the public
square.....the same as with any belief or opinion.
The only difference, Joggle, is the Mormons who are guilty of the same thing do
not represent the church (nor does the church itself ever attack anyone),
whereas the kinds of attacks and negativity listed in the article affect all
Mormons and the LDS church. Seems totally off-sided to me.
Maybe next we should all attack the, huh? enviromentalists? No that would get a
lot of hate. The Muslims? No they have rights. How about the Catholics? Yea,
they should be next because every body knows it is far easier to say and do evil
against those who are trying to do good for human kind.
@2buyusWhen the the LDS Church comes out publically against a group
of people or an issue such as homosexuality and abortion, or if an opposing
person or group simply views Mormonism from a different perspective that has
elements of truth based on that perspective and not a strictly Mormon
perspective....then of course they aren't going to agree. People can view
themselves differently than others_do. For example, you may not think many
aspects of Mormonism are ridiculous because your view comes from within and you
view it as normal where someone outside of the religion has reason to view it as
ridiculous. The Church often is attempting to influence public and private
issues whether political, moral, or societal. That could just as well be viewed
as an attack on a particuliar part of the population or an attempt at
influencing politics and moral issues. The LDS Church is an entity that
represents its members so even though the members might disagree with the
Church....the Church itself can be viewed as attacking a segment of society or
attempting to influence government. If a member support the Churches
representation of itself and expresses it publically then they must expect
'The only difference, Joggle, is the Mormons who are guilty of the same thing do
not represent the church (nor does the church itself ever attack anyone)...' -
2buyus | 12:10 p.m. Jan. 9, 2012 While majority of my Mormon
friends actually FOLLOW the teachings, as an organization, I would have to
disagree. As exampled by: **'LDS Church's in-kind
donations to Prop. 8 total $190K' - By Lynn Arave - By Dsnews - 02/03/09 "Proposition 8 was a ballot measure in California last November
that changed the state constitution to restrict the definition of marriage to
opposite-sex couples and eliminated same-sex couples' right to marry." **'Mormon Church agrees to pay small fine for mistake that led to late
report of contributions in Prop. 8 campaign' - By Scott Taylor - By DSnews -
06/09/10 Does this 'justify' simply insulting the LDS faith? No. It does NOT. Saying abstract insults about a faith is
not needed in our society. But I think the history in question, is
far from perfect as you might believe.
These people should be held accountable for the un-truths they generate. They
need proof of what they say not just assumptions. Their statements are bias
because of their lack or research in finding out the facts.
Interesting list. Are any of the items on the list not true?
Everyone has a right to their own oppinions but when those oppinions are not
done after much research and facts they beccome bias and hurtful and even
hateful. Everyone has the right to disagree but not a right to attack others
beliefs, especially those beliefs that are held sacred and personal.
Am I the only one that really is not so worried about what others say. We all
have our opinions. If they start to hurt or do physical harm then I get
worried. It comes to mind that many main stream
"Christians" were not so angelic. Among others Hitler came to mind.
Glad we did not judge him by his "Christian" affiliation. His
sentiments on Jews and minorities sound a tad bit similar to those listed in the
article. Difference is he did do the hurt and physical harm. My father left my
mother and risked his life for 3 years in Europe for those rights. Yet others
forget what the country was founded for. Stupid is as Stupid does.
Or in this case says.
God have mercy on their souls.
'Everyone has the right to disagree but not a right to attack others beliefs,
especially those beliefs that are held sacred and personal.' - Carol P. Warnick
| 1:38 p.m. Jan. 9, 2012 Carol, I think your post's are well
thought out, and you advocate research. I agree with you. And if your beliefs only AFFECT you, I care what they are. It is
when those belief's cross over to factually AFFECT others, is when I think that
rational discussion of those beliefs, are valid. Look at every
argument against gay marriage. It typically starts with 'I believe...' or 'The
bible says...' Using a book ABOUT a religion, to support a religious
stance does NOT say the harm those belief's, may bring when ENFORCED, upon
others. As exampled by: **'Kept From a Dying Partners
Bedside' - By TARA PARKER-POPE - NY Times - 05/18/09 "...the
couples had prepared for a medical emergency, creating living wills, advanced
directives and power-of-attorney documents." Me: And yet, even
with Living Will, Medical Directive, Power of attorney and emergency contact
information... Janice Langbehn was kept from the bedside of her
dying partner, Lisa Pond. They were together for 18 years. Good day.
I fail to understand how simple statements that are in essence true, constitute
bigotry. How about rather than whine and feel persecuted, members of the church
try learning to be apologists, prove these people wrong and research the claims
made by anti-mormons for themselves rather than rely on FAIR/FARMS.Frankly, I think this is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. When I
lived in Provo, I heard the nastiest things said about Evangelicals, worse than
this. These statements are not nearly as bad as things said about Christians or
Really, you had to print this article. Common, what is going on with the DNEWS?
This is abad idea of an article and the article itself is even worse.
Oh no! I'm afraid all of this will discredit the church and bring it down!Snicker.It's acutally refreshing to see that these people will say
things about the church that they would never say about any other group. Even
Scientology. That they continue cross so far over the line of respect and
common decency indicates we still have some heavy opposition!I hope
we are always peculiar to the great and abominable. . . well you get it.
@sigfried, thank you for proving my point. Why is it that the LDS can say
horrible things about Christians like calling them the great and abominable
church, but if Christians criticize Mormonism they are automatically labeled
"anti-Mormons" and accused of bigotry?The so called
bigotry works both ways. Mormons are just as guilty if not moreso than
Christians. Have you read some of the things your leaders and prophets have
said about Christianity? Do you agree with them?
"It's actually refreshing to see that these people will say things about
the church that they would never say about any other group. Even
Scientology."Uh.... by singling out Scientology are you really
any different? Is being passive aggressive so much better than being honestly
critical? And why do they think that if you smile while dissing someone it is
somehow not being critical? "I hope we are always peculiar to
the great and abominable. . . well you get it."As an LDS
missionary I threw around terms like "great and abominable church of the
devil"....and "Babylon" and even "anti-Mormon" to
describe those that had anything critical to say about the Church. The irony is
that I was the one who was calling names and was getting personal rather than
addressing the criticisms. I don't really see how this approach is any better
than what you say these so-called 'antis' are doing.
Carol P. Warnick"Everyone has the right to disagree but not a right
to attack others beliefs, especially those beliefs that are held sacred and
personal."There are some who believe that the world is going to end
Dec 2012. If I say that is superstitious nonsense, is that an attack on others
beleifs? It is not beliefs that shouldn't be attacked (scrutinized and subject
to evidence) it is people that shouldn't be attacked. The 1st amendment
gaurantees us the right to free speech. Even though you might not like what I
say, I still get to say it no matter how much it offends your sacred beliefs.
Human beings are to be respected, but not the silly things that they believe.
To Ben Ferguson: Heck Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;-)On a serious note, There
are always going to be people who say things to try to tear down the Church.
Some, like Bill Maher, make it a big part of their schtick and are quite
insulting. Others, just show their ignorance and willingness to ignore the main,
top line truth about the LDS Church--That we are first and foremost Christians.
Once we can get people to WILLINGLY accept this truth about our Church, the
ignorance will decrease; however, those comments based upon a hatred and bigotry
will just increase. Fortunately, I don't think anyone seriously looks at the
Bill Mahers of the world and thinks they speak with any real authority except
that of an (so-called) entertainer. If they do, pity be to them.
@Carol P. Warnick, Mormons often confuse bigotry from the truth.Catholic Answers consider Mormonism a non-Christian religion and The Lutheran
Church--Missouri Synod, together with the vast majority of Christian
denominations in the United States, does not regard the Mormon church as a
As Neal A. Maxwell once said, "The laughter of the world is merely
loneliness pathetically trying to reassure itself." The church as endured
far worse and comments such as those rendered in the article only serve to hurt
the one who penned them. I, for one, have little time for them and far more
important things to be concerned with.
The statements of Maher and Hitchens among others weren't that bad. Mormons Inc.
needs to get a bit thicker skin, especially as it morphs from religion to
politics. If you're gonna bring it to the table, don't expect nothing but good
reviews. Religion is totally subjective, and all the efforts made to refute
anyones' statement to the contrary is worth nothing more than the original
OK. So, I finally read the entire article. "A quote by comedian Bill Maher
was the most glaring anti-Mormon statement made by a public figure during
2011"Maher's Quote: "By any standard, Mormonism is more
ridiculous than any other religion"Pa-lease! As a life-long,
active member of the church, Im proud to say Im a member of the Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints.We have always had derogatory statements
(any many worst in the past!) and will have them in the future.If,
indeed, MormonVoices is a "volunteer group dedicated to, in their words,
providing accurate information about the LDS Church", why simply throw out
the 10 statements alone? That's what I found so inflammatory about the
article.I've personally heard so much worse than Maher's statement.
And the dude's more of a comedian than anything else, so you take people like
that with a grain of salt.And if you think these 10 are bad, buckle
your chin straps for the presidential campaign once Mitt goes toe-to-toe with
@daddiooh, You stated "That we are first and foremost Christians. Once we
can get people to WILLINGLY accept this truth about our Church, "How do you expect Christians to willingly embrace Mormons as Christians when
they deny fundamental doctrines of Christianity - like the nature of God, and
the nature and work of Christ?For most of LDS history, the LDS
excluded themselves from Christianity, only in the last 25 years or so have they
even wanted to be called Christians.
"Religious bigotry is unacceptable," Scott Gordon - But Bigotry
endorsed by religious groups is acceptable? How about both religious and
non-religious groups end all bigotry, it would be the best thing for humanity.
big·ot·ry [big-uh-tree] noun, plural -ries.1.stubborn and complete intolerance of any
creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.2.the actions,
beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
Yawn.. The more these scrubs fight and rail against the church, the more it will
grow and the soft of heart will read through their erroneous hate remarks.. Who
cares what these clowns say? They are all recycled re-hashed remarks anyway..
"...but we heeded them not."The gospel in the time of
Christ was just as unpopular with the establishment as the LDS church is today.
The gospel is never going to be 'mainstream' but the membership of the church
will continue to grow as it has every year.
@alices"How do you expect Christians to willingly embrace Mormons as
Christians when they deny fundamental doctrines of Christianity - like the
nature of God, and the nature and work of Christ?"My methodist
pastor seemed to think that the idea of Mormons being Christians was obvious. My
atheist speech professor in college did not allow me to give a persuasive speech
on "mormons are Christian" because "it'd be way too easy to
persuade" (not to the evangelical in that class it wouldn't, she was very
much concerned about my soul when I noted an interest in mormonism... also when
I noted my belief in evolution). When people aren't vested in the idea of
"I'm right, you're wrong" and can engage in a discussion that doesn't
involve trying to one-up other people... then it's pretty easy to consider
To one of the posters name starts with a J haven't I heard that train of thought
from you one too many times?You clearly have no interest in debating as
you sometimes say with an open mind?You clearly just want to make your
same repetitive point
While we may disagree, others are perfectly entitled to their opinion of what
constitutes a Christian church. They aren't the only ones who claim to be the
one true church of Christ.
It is interesting to note that those of the same gender attraction are the most
vocal in their anti-mormon rhetoric. Did they not get the memo back
in 1995 by the 1st Presidency with the Proclamation on the Family?When the church perceived that the family and the rights of children were
being assaulted by California law, they simply followed through with their 1995
memo and came to the defence of marriage, family and a childs right to be born
into a family with both a father and a mother.
Maher's Quote: "By any standard, Mormonism is more ridiculous than any
other religion"When you stand back, look at Mormonism in the
eye's of someone that doesn't know a thing about but understanding all the
facets of the religion Maher is right on target.
All through my life I have had people being anti at me for some reason or
another, for being protestant, female, Scottish and poor so why not Mormon now
since I joined many years ago. Its like everything in life you take the good
with bad and stick to what you believe in. I think i will sleep very well at
night no matter what Bill Maher throws at my religion or anyone else. Oh and
being Scottish there is a lot of braveheart in me, so expect the occasional kick
Juding from some of those commenting here, there's a lot of jealousy that their
pointless tirades and tired diatribes didn't make the list. Well,
there's always next year. Buwahahaha. Something as spiritually
significant, valuable, and important as the LDS faith will always have it
detractors, nay-sayers and opposition. And still, faith manages to
find a way... almost as though that was the point.
I believe what I believe from personal choice, and I enjoy that right. As a
convert to the LDS Church of 43 years, I have learned that if others disagree
with my beliefs, I give them that same right. What they say will not affect my
beliefs, and whatever I say will probably not affect theirs.I
believe that where we may differ, however, is that I will never be rude in the
way I speak about their beliefs. What I have learned, sadly, is that I don't
always get that same courtesy.Personally, I think it is very sad
that "we" and "mainline Christians" have much in common, and
yet we seem to focus on the differences. Let's join forces, and spend our
common funds on pushing forward the word of Christ. We opened a new chapel
close to where I live in Staffordshire, as we were approaching Easter. The
local Minister spent valued funds on buying and distributing pamphlets that
knocked the Mormons. Why, as Easter approached, didn't he spend it on promoting
the Atonement, and Infinite love of Jesus?
>UtahTwisted>Interesting list. Are any of the items on the list not
true?Clearly not. Clever rhetorical twists are not informative.
Space doesn't allow me to rebut every statement, so I'll start at one:"(Mormonism is) one of the most egregious groups operating on American
soil." (Egregious is defined as extraordinary in some bad way)Really? The organization who consistently and constantly teaches of love,
forgiveness, honesty, fidelity towards spouse, patience and care of children,
respect for elders, excellence in self conduct, patriotism is
"extraordinary in some bad way"? It is as dangerous or more dangerous
than organized crime? It is as dangerous as neo-nazis or the Klu Klux Klan? As
or more dangerous than alcohol and tobacco companies? I read Hitchen's piece
before he died, and it is clear what his sources were, and with sloppy sourcing
that he never actually bothered to speak to an actual practicing Mormon or visit
an LDS church. But that would have taken too much time, and would have gone
against his agenda.(next post Bloom)
What is the criteria for something to be considered anti-mormon?
@ TRUTH | 8:55 a.m. Jan. 9, 2012Agreed. You'd be better off w/ the
late Christopher Hitchens or Lewis Black.
BigRich - So you have better things to do, yet you still had time to not only
read the article but to comment on it? That doesn't sound like somebody who has
better things to do. Plus, when Maxwell made that statement it was only his
opinion, not doctrine so we have to take it as opinion.
@Counter Intelligence ,Should Jews, gays, blacks, etc also get a thicker
skin?(Genesis 7:10 JST), And there was a blackness came upon all the
children of Cainan, that they were despised among all people. And (Genesis 7:22
JST) ,..all the seed of Adam save it were the seed of Cain; for the seed of Cain
were black and had not a place among them.Brigham Young, Can you
make a Christian of a Jew? I tell you Nay, If a Jew comes into this church ,and
the blood honestly professes to be a Saint, a follower of Christ, and if the
blood of Judah is in his veins, he will apostatize.(JoD V. 2 p. 142)
I am a Jew and I have not apostatize yet. Mind you my family has been in the
church since th 1830's
I think it's genuinely bizarre, not to mention a tad neurotic, that we would
publish such a list.
Some of the statements imply that because the LDS Church has certain moral
standards to which it adhers, that in and of itself makes the Church and it's
members either judgemental or bigoted. Well, that same standard could apply to
any person or organization that participates in the democratic process. Just
watch how the media and Obama supporters are going to imply racism when he is
iron&clay says:"Did they not get the memo back in 1995 by
the 1st Presidency with the Proclamation on the Family?"---The proclamation applies to Mormons and those who follow your faith.
Nobody else is obliged to follow YOUR doctrines. The proclamation is
@Certain person"[Something that certain someone
posted]"'That isn't true.' '[Insert view, opinion, or claim] is
completely wrong!' '[Insert witty and/or belittling comeback]'"Blah blah is blah blah." - A famous or infamous so and so.(Standard format for comments by both Pro LDS and Anti LDS posters)
@Stay the CourseI heard no train of thought from you that I can
debate so would you be so kind as to present some reasonable form of debate to
which a person can respond to in return or debate instead of attempting to
negate the truth of a claim by pointing out a negative characteristic or belief
of the person supporting it. This tactic is logically fallacious because insults
and negative facts about the opponent's personal character have nothing to do
with the logical merits of the opponent's arguments or assertions. Your
accusation of having no interest in debate is an unsupported assumption since no
debate has been initiated between us. Although my opinion or disagreement may be
similiar to previous points I've made it isn't my goal to change my established
opinion to please you. Logically speaking....if my argument and/or assertions
have not changed.....then they will be similiar when presented, but since I
don't keep copy and paste files....the argument may be the same, but the words
will be different. You are welcome to debate the subject, but ad hominems are
not debate! In fact, in a way....you prove my point! Thanks.
What could you expect from an ultra-radical-leftist like Maher. As I remember,
he's an atheist anyway. So, he has no standing to even make an observation.
Unfortunately there are way too many jerks like him out there spouting off about
something they know nothing about, or intentionally lying, a common trait of
Re: Counter IntelligenceThanks for your opinion on what the criteria
is for something to be considered anti-mormon. I asked because when I read
through this thread it appeared to me that the range in criteria for something
to be considered anti-mormon has a wide spread. I was hoping more folks would
have shared their opinion on that specific question.
@RanchhandThe proclamation on Families from 1995 is actually titled: A Proclamation To The WORLD.It called upon responsible
citizens and officers of government everywhere to promote those measures
designed to maintain and strengthen the family as the fundamental unit of
society. It also came with a warning to all that the disintegration
of the family will bring upon individuals, communities, and nations the
calamities fortold by ancient and modern prophets.
@IMAM: I can give an LDS perspective on your question of what constitutes
"anti-Mormon" discourse.I think that Counter Intelligence
has it correct that intent is the primary descriptor. If someone asks a
question about Mormon beliefs, or even expresses the honest opinion that those
beliefs are strange, that wouldn't be considered anti-Mormon. On the other
hand, if someone repeatedly asks the same question--not for an answer, but
rhetorically to throw doubt on Mormon credibility or sincerity; or if someone
repeatedly couches Mormon beliefs in language that is intended to make us look
or feel ridiculous, those things would properly be considered anti-Mormon.There are some things that are so obvious they shouldn't need
definition, but they crop up repeatedly: Some people advocate violence against
Mormons or Mormon property--physical or economic violence, for example. This is
often couched in terms of, "No one should do anything violent to the
Mormons, but if they support Prop. 8, they deserve it," in the old
classical idea of encouraging something while appearing to discourage it.Ironically, there are many posters here who insist they are not
"anti-Mormon" while they repeatedly seek exuses to find fault.
I wish if people were going to quote someone, they would at least make SURE the
words they are quoting are the actual words that were said. The actual quote
is: "As man is, God once was; as God is, Man may become. This is not as
far-fetched as it may sound at first. But instead of studying the scriptures to
understand why Latter Day Saints might say this, they simply mock it. I have
found that people do tend to mock what they don't and don't want to understand.
I have said it before, and I'll say it again -- Just because one doesn't believe
something doesn't mean that "something" is not true. One does not
have to believe the sky is blue for it to be a fact. There was a time when the
prevailing belief was that the world was flat and anyone who said it was not was
considered a heretic. Learning is good for the soul and learning the truth is
even more important.
Why listen to people like Bill Maher? Maher is an atheist, constitution hating ,
socialist that has zero morals to boot. If you wrestle with a pig you're just
going to get dirty and the pig loves it regardless. I would hate to see in print
the things the Pharisees of Jesus day said about Jesus and his new gospel. We
have some of it in the New Testament but I'm sure that is just scratching the
surface of the ugliness. Rule of thumb: don't cast your pearls before swine lest
they trample them under their feet and rend you again....
Oh lighten up.. all of you. Your skin needs to thicken a bit. I can give a list
of the top ten anti something comments off the top of my head.The
more mainstream and popular Mormonism gets... the more it is going to have
people attack it. Deal with it and move on.. you are better than that.
A number of years ago on his old Politically Incorrect show, one of his guests
made a disparaging remark about Mormons and Bill Maher shot them a dirty look,
like "Don't go there." I admired and appreciated him so much for
that. Now, however, it seems Maher has become the standard bearer for all
things atheist. He loves to redicule all religious thought. He has found his
niche and is enjoying being what he perceives as the popular culture leader of
intelligent cynicism. From where I'm standing, he simply looks to be both
arrogant and pitiful. I am saddened to see him stoop so low.
Humanism such as what Bill Maher adheres to is a religion. The prophet of the
restoration of this religion to the earth is the late Jean-Jacques Rousseau.
"Mormon theology... DO(es) teach that Mormons will be gods over their own
worlds."The Bible teaches that Christ's followers will be heirs
of God and joint heirs with Christ. What does 'heir' refer to?"Doubt me? God is as man may become and man is as God once was. Sound
familiar?"God (Christ) indeed was a man at one time (see the
Christian Bible's New Testament) and has become/is now Christians' God.
J interesting you picked yourself out so quickly my comments are based on
reading a number of yours over the last few months that's all also the phrase
Ad hominen is used too much on these comment boards
Thinkman, Got kids? Want what's best for them? Everything
you have and more? Want them to always learn and grow and be better? So does our
heavenly Father. "be ye therefore perfect even as your father which is in
heaven is prefect." Sound familiar? It's a commandment from Christ. I
believe with God all things are possible and that our potential is limitless. He
wouldn't have it any other way. Although none of us are anywhere close to God or
his great glory it gives me comfort that God wants me to have the joy that he
So the question apparently remains: Is it possible without bigotry to love the
believer, and at the same time hate the beliefs?
So, what channel is Bill Maher on? Isn't it something like Comedy Central? I used to work with a guy that would get all his news from that station
and it really showed. Now he wonders why he is disliked, is in dept up to his
ears and doesn't understand what on earth is going on around him. Kind of tells
@JeffE - Yes, lets not forget that Joseph Smith violated the constitution when
he ordered the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor. Power of the press
indeed.to the moderator: there is nothing in my comment that
violates any of forum rules. It is insanely hypocritical for you to post an
article attacking non-Mormons and censor FACTUAL HISTORICAL INFORMATION that is
relevant to the discussion.
I'm confused by some of these comments and how they are considered
"anti-mormon"I went to the mormon voices webiste to look
up the reasoning behind why Christopher Hitchens quote was anti-mormon and the
only rationale provided was 332 scholars disagree. I didn't realize that
anti-mormon comments had a low qualification threshold.
@OC64 The 332 scholars answer was in response to Bill Mahrer's
comment that Mormonism is the most ridiculous religion. Christopher Hitchen's
quote was slanderous in that the word "egregarious" has a negative
conotation. All of these people are certainly entitled to their
opinion but the point being made by the article, whether stated or not is that
civility/respect for other human beings with different beliefs seems to be going
down the drain these days. It's especially true in these statements about
Mormonism. I actually feel sorry for some of these folks. Their egos
will get the best of them in the end. They really don't know what they are
saying... or missing out on. SAd.
"By any standard, Mormonism is more ridiculous than any other
religion" could just as easily be "By any standard, Bill Maher is more
ridiculous than any other pseudo-intellectual comedian."It's
simply a matter of perspective and how much of a reaction you want to get from
your audience. Mr Maher is certainly entitled to his opinion, and the fact he is
able to broadcast it doesn't make it any more valid, just louder. For me, it's the "still, small voice" that makes the greatest impact
and bears the greater truth.
I agree with JonathanPDX. This also reminds me of the blind fellows examining an
elephant and describing its characteristics from their limited vantage point.
love to hear Christopher Hitchens' thoughts on this subject now. I think he may
be seeing things a little differently now that he is on the other side.
"By any standard, Bill Maher is more ridiculous than any other TV
hack" WOW! so true, and I only changed two words!