Research does not offer startling new info about Mormons
Excuse me....but there are more LDS members outside the US and they happen to
represent the Polynesian and South American and Islanders and Europeans that do
not tend to be "mostly white", not financially well off and would find
Republicanism quite "unethical"For instance in Australia where
there is over 200,000 members,most are appalled that Americans fail to assist
the poor and needy when it comes to medical assistance regardless of income.English, Canadian and Australian members enjoy health cover for all regardless
of income status. Someone please look beyond the Utah Republican mentality and
look to the whole too see the the bigger picture!
"A new study coming out of Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., indicates
that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are
predominantly Republican, overwhelmingly white, well-educated, prosperous and
have larger-than-average families."In this season of joy, I
hate to be persnickety, but the opening statement of this article is somewhat
misleading. Later in the article we read the actual name of the article
"The Mormon Population of the United States 1990-2008: An Analysis of
Socio-Demographic Trends and Regional Differences,"So, what the
study is about is Mormons in the United States, not just "members of the
Church of Jesus Christ" in general. Certainly the vast majority of church
members in the Mormon rich countries in Central and South America would not be
considered "white" and many of them, perhaps a majority, are not
well-educated or prosperous. And of course, they would not be
"Republican" nor would their political views nessecarily be considered
as conservative as American Republicans.I guess my hope is that the
Deseret News is not trying to use a study done about American Mormons to
describe ALL Mormons. That's all. Thanks for listening and Merry Christmas.
The stereotypes are holding back the progress of the Church and will continue to
do so until the Church becomes more diverse, particularly politically. This
over identification with the GOP is, I am certain, a product of events in the
last 30 years or so, and really took flight with Orrin Hatch and the GOP using
Church affiliation as a measure of being a good Church member for their own
political purposes. The leadership can continue to empathize with the GOP, or
they can be more assertive that the GOP is not the preferred political party in
order to advance the interests of the Church and spread the Gospel. Inaction is
a choice to stay the same.
I would counter with the opinion that I bet there are way more American members
of the LDS Church who consider themselves independent voters. The
Republican affiliation might have been true in the past, but I personally know
so many, myself at the top of the list,who have seriously distanced themselves
from being associated with so much of what is considered 'Republican' these
days--or anything to do with the Tea Party, or Glenn Beck, or talk radio
personalities,or evangelicals and others who believe they own and speak for the
Republican Party,or rabid illegal alien haters, or those rabid on other
topics....I could go on and on.Count me as an
Some of those stereotypes are not correct.Mormon women in Utah have
had to work outside the home for decades because Utah's pay rates are generally
lower than outside the state, but the cost of living here is on a par with many
other states. Having lived here all my life, I've seen this firsthand.Many Mormons are well educated, yes, but certainly not an
"overwhelming" number of them. Which demographic was surveyed? Only
those with college educations? There are just as many blue collar workers here
in Utah as there are in other states and religions. Who is it that you think
waits your tables, unclogs your toilets, checks you out at the supermarket?
These people are certainly not all non-Mormons; they're probably a ratio of
Mormons/non-Mormons that matches the state's diversity (appx. 57% Mormon, 43%
non-Mormon).This study is interesting, but I don't think its
@Esquire - ever consider that the Church may not be looking for
"progress" as you and the rest of the world might define it?
Folks, don't you all realize that it is the Christian religion that identifies
with conservative values. The Mormons are not the only religion to be strongly
with the GOP. It is the liberal secular anti-religious values and attitude
emaninating from the Democrat party that has driven many religious people to the
GOP. Mormons and Christians find it hard to get cozy with the party of pro
abortion, pro same sex marriage, and pro just about any human behavior that
might offend the senses of average God fearing people. You guys have put the
cart before the horse. If the Democrat Party wants conservative religious
people to support them then the party has to become less liberal. It is the
Democrats who have been on the move in America and that move is Left.
Meanwhile, we religious people just stay where our values have always been.
I am a Mormon and I have never been told or asked to vote Republican by any
church leader! Perhaps more than anything else, this study says something about
how Mormons view themselves, their family values and the values of the different
political parties? Merry Christmas!
Esquire, you're just plain wrong. The Church has been, is, and always will be
silent on the topic of political affiliation. I have never been asked my party
of preference by any member of Church leadership nor as qualification for any
position or benefit within the Church. Not once. Ever.
'At the same time, the findings suggest "the Mormon community has an above
average interest in politics," with a higher percentage of Mormons (90
percent in Utah and 84 percent overall) registered as voters, compared with 78
percent among non-Mormon adults.' - Article Gasp! No!
(Sarcasm) *'LDS Church's in-kind donations to Prop. 8 total $190K' -
By Lynn Arave - By Dsnews - 02/03/09 'Proposition 8 was a ballot
measure in California last November that changed the state constitution to
restrict the definition of marriage to opposite-sex couples and eliminated
same-sex couples' right to marry.' That being said...
one should not use stereotypes... as a basis for individual
As long as the Democratic Party is perceived as emphasizing Choice over Life and
Entitlement over Self-Sufficiency, most Mormons will continue to identify with
the Republican Party of their own volition.
Hey Chet & Char cool to see you and the kids, nice way to get out of sending
Christmas Cards !It appears that this rather narrow study has gotten
under the skin of some hyper-sensitive LDS members. It is curious to me how some
small anecdotal sampling of the LDS faith can get a rise out of folks. Oh well some peoples kids.
Windsor: Me, too.I find it REALLY hard to believe that this survey
of 50K people in the 48 contiguous states is accurate. Certainly not a 0.5%
margin of error. That is ridiculous! We need some details on the mechanics of
the survey. To be most accurate, the same percentage of the population in each
state needs to be surveyed, not hte same number of people. Also, Excluding
Alaska and Hawaii, a predominately LDS state skews both the racial and the
political numbers. Are they no longer in the USA? What about Puerto Rico?
They are American Citizens, and I bet the majority of Mormons there are not
white.Finally, this passage cannot be confirmed with such a small
sample size:" According to the survey, 3.2 million Americans
identified themselves as members of the LDS Church in 2008. Official LDS Church
statistics indicate that number was actually about 5.9 million. The difference
is attributed to the fact that the church counts total members on record, while
the researchers only count those who actually identify themselves as church
members."It occurs to me that this might be some Stats students
doing a bad job on a term project.
'As long as the Democratic Party is perceived as emphasizing Choice over Life
and Entitlement over Self-Sufficiency, most Mormons will continue to identify
with the Republican Party of their own volition.' - Be Practical | 8:05 a.m.
Dec. 15, 2011 As such, they would then... *'Fox News
host: Romney not Christian' - By Hal Boyd, Deseret News - 07/17/11
*'Rick Perry backer decries Mitt Romney, Mormons' - By Jamshid Ghazi Askar,
Deseret News - 10/08/11 " (Robert) Jeffress described Romney's
Mormon faith as a 'cult,' and said evangelicals had only one real option in the
2012 primaries. ... Asked by Politico if he believed Romney is a Christian,
Jeffress answered: 'No.' " ...Live with that
As an academic (social science) survey study, it was fine. It is what it is.
Get to know a mormon, if you want to know what mormons are really like.
This survey reeks of a badly-written master's thesis.Over 50% of LDS
Church membership is non-white. And I'm certain that well over 50% of LDS
Church membership is not "prosperous". Nor is the majority of LDS
Church membership Republican (in the countries where the majority of latter-day
saints live, there is no Republican party). In the U.S. this might be the case,
but the survey didn't say that. If this study was intended to be a demographic
analysis of just American LDS, it should have stated that.And why
did the survey stop where it did? No statistics about Jell-o consumption or
John20000 | 8:23 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 Cedar Hills, UT As an academic
(social science) survey study, it was fine. It is what it is. Get to know a
mormon, if you want to know what mormons are really like.@John, I
would suggest you get to know several mormons if you want to know what mormons
are really like -- since we are talking about statistics! And get to know them
on a day other than Sunday. People are often very different on church days than
the other 6 days of the week (and that applies to other religious groups as
Re: Pagan | 8:05 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 The LDS Church teaches chastity
and moral cleanliness. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was also what Jesus
taught. If Jesus walked the earth today his teachings would be unpopular with
many who consider themselves Christians.
If this study and interpretation are accurate, then we Latter-day Saints have a
lot of work to do.With such a large majority of US Saints
identifying with the Republican Party, there is an obvious disconnect with the
advice of the leadership. We are advised often to maintain a neutral position
regarding US politics. That is for several reasons:We are a
worldwide church and we must live at a Gospel-level, not a national political
level. We must embrace social and economic assistance to those in need. That
should come from self, family, GOVERNMENT, and lastly Church. We support
government assistance programs.The Gospel teaches how enslaving
materialism becomes. Examples are the meetinghouse parking lots full of
expensive SUV's and Mitt Romney's 3 mansions and incredible wealth. The Saints
worldwide are far more modest, and even impoverished. We must give away our
wealth that others can be provided for. Meeting their basic needs
(food,shelter,medical) is essential to liberate their spirits so they can
embrace the Gospel.No political party or movement represents the
Gospel teachings. Yes, there are certain elements aligned with our teachings,
like the GOP opposing abortion or the Democratic party supporting social
assistance. But no party reflects the Teachings.Thus we need to
rise above party identity and think and act aligned with the Gospel.
This Trinity College needs to work on their researching techniques... there are
more mormons outside of the US than inside it.
@Pagan 8:21 a.m.It's a good thing that a MAJORITY of Republicans
don't care to what religion a candidate belongs. If Romney gets the nomination,
then the name calling will really begin from the left.
I think most are missing the point. Yes, while we do match up to some stereo
types very well (mostly white church - BTW religion is still one of the most
segregated aspects of our country still - so not a surprising factoid), in other
aspects we aren't as different as we like to beleive we are.For
example, family size 4.2 for LDS households, 3.7 for non-lds. Not a huge
difference. This hugely dispells the differnce most image by the old 15
passenger van showing up to church with kids streaming out of it.Take the political side as well. While yes, the church is represented by 59
percent Republicans, there is also 41 percent who are not. If you faactor in
for the fact that Utah is hugely Republican and it infact represents an outlyer,
that would lead one to the conclusion that the split is more evenly distributed
outside of Utah. It means that at least 4 out the ten people on the pew next to
you are not the same brand of conservatives that you would believe all members
must be by reading post here on DN.We're not so different as we
Mountanman | 7:35 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 Hayden, IDI am a Mormon and I
have never been told or asked to vote Republican by any church leader! Perhaps
more than anything else, this study says something about how Mormons view
themselves, their family values and the values of the different political
parties? Merry Christmas! @Mountanman, I am a mormon, very active in
the church, and a new transplant to Utah. I have been told by several members
of the church that they don't see how I can be a democrat and a good mormon. I
never heard those words from any mormons outside of Utah where I have lived in
the past. Just letting you know that if you, too, lived in Utah, your mormon
experience here might be quite different insofar as politics are concerned.
To LDS - we are never advised to maintain a neutral position regarding US
politics. We are often encouraged to search our conscience and be actively
engaged in electing leaders and setting policy that reflects the promptings of
the conscience. The policy letters read from the pulpit every election cycle
clearly indicate we should be actively involved, but not to presume to speak for
the Church or claim its political approval. The LDS Church remains politically
neutral because they recognize that neither party contains the fullness of the
gospel and are not partnered with the Church in salvational purpose.
@Kami;I think you need to visit Idaho. The Mormon experience in
Idaho is twin to the Mormon experience in Utah (largely). Just
As a bizarre sidebar, my daughter was just showing me this exact photo of the
Poultons on her cellphone a few days ago. Strangely, the article said nothing
about how cute she thinks the kid on the far left has become.
You have to understand the study parameters and take it as it is (overall a poor
study and not well thought out). There should have been more information about
the study parameters provided so we could more accurately judge the validity of
the study. With a sampling of only 53k, I have a hard time believing the margin
of error at only 0.5%.I too feel that DN mis-lead us by implying LDS
(in general and not contiguous US only) in the title.Since it was
such a poor study, it doesn't change my way of thinking very much.
DSB | 9:14 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 Cedar Hills, UT "The LDS Church
remains politically neutral because they recognize that neither party contains
the fullness of the gospel and are not partnered with the Church in salvational
purpose"Not true, the LDS church remains politically neutral
and reminds its members that it is politically neutral in order to ensure its
position of not having to pay income tax. That is the law -- it MUST be
politically neutral. It may support issues, but it may NOT support any
political candidate or political party. Believe me, the IRS would be all over
this if it had evidence to the contrary.
'Re: Pagan | 8:05 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 The LDS Church teaches chastity and
moral cleanliness. Correct me if I'm wrong but that was also what Jesus taught.'
- Rifleman | 8:42 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 rifleman, you just used the
SOURCE, to support a symptom. You used Jesus Christ, as SUPPORT for
LDS teachings...to support LDS teachings. Not that the LDS teachings
are based of...Jesus Christ. As you can provide evidence for
neither, they are both invalid. Another way to explain this
is...using LDS teachings to support Jesus Christ... is like using a
Comic Book...to support Superman. LDS teachings are designed to
support Jesus Chirst. You can't go BACK and claim that the first support the
second...again. That, is circular reasoning. As for
marriage: Kim Kardashain, 72 day marriage. Britney Spears, 55
hour marriage. Bristol Palin, child outside of marriage.
'Moral Cleanliness' is so abstract and so UNatainable it is to be realized...it
can never be achieved. Not to mention the fact, chastity is
typically used...until marriage. Can LGBT marry in Utah Rifleman? I didn't think so. Good day.
@ m.g. scott | 7:35 & Rifleman" don't you all realize that
it is the Christian religion that identifies with conservative values""The LDS Church teaches chastity and moral cleanliness.. If Jesus
walked the earth today his teachings would be unpopular with many who consider
themselves Christians"As an LDS raised in South America, I have
never been able to understand how LDS/ Republicans (U.S.A.) can reconcile their
belief in the gospel with the selfish and dehumanizing values of the cold
capitalism preached by that party.Yes, I agree that the gospel
teaches moral, cleanliness and other conservative values. But the
gospel also teaches a sense of community and concern for those who have less.
The gospel also teaches free-agency and not forcing individuals to do what is
right. (whatever that is) Self-determination in our personal
salvation is one of our biggest gifts. When you try to legislate
your beliefs to impose them in others you are not following Christ.Many members of the KKK claim to follow Christ and vote Republican.Check David
Duke, That my brothers, I'm sure is not a company we would like to keep. Rifleman I agree with your assertions.
Seems there is an old saying that Goes something like, "If you keep the
Commandments and do what is right you will prosper." Prosper means you
will grow stronger, thrive, and flourish.Does a person who lives in
iniquity really thrive? Maybe for a short time, but, in the end that type of
life will catch up to them. You see it in the media everyday where people are
killing each other over everything from petty arguments to drugs. Prospering
does not mean hardening your heart against others it means taking care of those
you love, teaching them what is right and making the world better.
Which goes to show that Democrats are wasting their time trying to get Mormons
votes - let the Mormons have their one party Republican sustaining votes.
I don't know why people are upset about this survey. Obviously it is of U.S.
Mormons.Pew also conducted a study, "A Portrait of Mormons in
the U.S."Some findings:"The Mormon population in the U.S.
is heavily concentrated in the West (76%). In fact, roughly one-third of all
American Mormons (35%) live in Utah, the state founded by its early leaders. An
additional 13% live in California while 7% reside in Idaho, 5% in Nevada and 4%
each in Oregon and Arizona. Only about one-in-ten Mormons (12%) live in the
South (including 4% who reside in Texas), 7% live in the Midwest and just 4%
reside in the Northeast.Nearly nine-in-ten Mormons in the U.S. (86%)
are white, compared with 71% of the general population. Just 3% of Mormons are
African-American and 7% are Latino. Mormons are very politically
conservative. Six-in-ten Mormons identify as conservative, about three-in-ten
(27%) say they consider themselves moderate and only one-in-ten identify as
@ m.g. scott" don't you all realize that it is the Christian
religion that identifies with conservative values"3/4 of this
nation are Christian so there's gotta be a large segment of Christians that vote
Democratic. For instance, Catholics are pretty 50-50 in voting because they
match up with Democrats on economic policies.
So, ClarkKent - show me where other religious organizations deliver periodic
policy statements from the pulpit that so strongly prohibit the use of their
church or its name in taking political stands. Many religious organizations
across the nation skirt the edge of political neutrality, and others cross the
line so blatantly I don't even understand how they maintain their tax-free
status. The church has no legal requirement to have those
statements read at all. So don't give me the baloney that the LDS Church only
does it to maintain its tax-free status. If they wanted, they could engage in
much more stealth political advocacy before even coming close to what others get
away with.The church remains politically neutral because they have
come to understand that politics is not their purpose. I'll concede that
staying well within the non-profit guidelines may be a piece of the motivation,
but I do not believe it's the overriding consideration.
LDS, I agree with your conclusion:"Thus we need to rise above party
identity and think and act aligned with the Gospel."But this
statement is false:"With such a large majority of US Saints
identifying with the Republican Party, there is an obvious disconnect with the
advice of the leadership. We are advised often to maintain a neutral position
regarding US politics."It is true that the Church remains
neutral, and the leaders often remind us of that (for example, to prevent
political endorsements over the pulpit). But they don't suggest that
individuals maintain a neutral position on politics.
Re: marxist | 9:35 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 "let the Mormons have their one
party Republican sustaining votes"Most Mormons believe in the
sanctity of life and believe in personal responsibility. Until the Democrats
stop preaching the virtues of abortion they will remain a minority for those in
Utah who vote their conscience.
More from the Pew Study (2009):Mormons are less likely than the
population overall to support the government doing more to help the needy. Among
the general public, two-thirds (62%) say the government should do more for the
needy, while only about half of Mormons (49%) say this.On the
question of morality, Mormons favor a larger role for government. A majority
(54%) says government should do more to protect morality, with a smaller number
(39%) saying they worry the government is too involved in the issue of morality.
Among the general population, the proportions are opposite - a narrow
majority (52%) says government is too involved.Political and social
views are linked with church attendance among Mormons, as among the general
population. Those who attend services at least once a week are more likely to be
Republican (73% vs. 39%) and oppose legal abortion (78% vs. 44%). The same is
true with regard to opinion on the size of government; among weekly attenders,
61% support a smaller government while 31% prefer a larger government, and among
less-frequent attenders, just 37% prefer a smaller government while 53% prefer a
@DSB"The church remains politically neutral because"because enough members can't seem to pay attention to it and will deride the
political belies of liberals in the church. The church would have an interest in
not losing liberal members. A gallup survey of LDS members found 79% activity
overall but for LDS liberals activity was 50%. Seeing as liberals only were 8%
of LDS members in the poll, that means only ~4% of LDS members are active and
Interesting that 59% say they are Republican. That was amazing to me. I had a
stereotypical thought that the number would be much higher. That means there
are 41% of us that are not claiming to be Republican. Wow! I can come out of
the "non-Republican" closet at church, then. Great news!
Above average interest in politics yet one of lowest rates of actual voters.
Hard to explain that one.
UtahBlueDevil(F)amily size 4.2 for LDS households, 3.7 for non-lds. Not a
huge difference. This hugely dispells the differnce most image by the old 15
passenger van showing up to church with kids streaming out of it.LDS4The 4.2 MAY be low. LDS kids marry young creating a 2 person household rather
than staying in their parents' homes making those homes even larger. LDS live
longer so there should be more households with an elderly couples or widow(er)s.
These too bring the average size down.LDSNo political party
or movement represents the Gospel teachings. LDS4Both the Dems and
GOP violate the principle of Agency by advocating government force in promoting
their moral views. Dems want our money and the GOP wants our obedience to Blue
Laws/ Vice laws. Truthseeker quotes the Pew Study, On the question of morality,
Mormons favor a larger role for government. A majority (54%) says government
should do more to protect morality. IOW, use force so that not one is lost.
Hmmm. Libertarianism enshrines agency by letting people do as they wish
providing no objective harm is forced on others. True freedom is the
At this moment Newt Gingrich is the frontrunner in the Republican race. If he is
able to maintain the momentum he may win the Republican nomination.It seems that based on what we know of Mr. Gingrich, his personal history does
not support a very moral or clean way of life (to LDS standards).If
Mr. Gingrich is chosen as Republican candidate for President in 2012. What will
be the political position of LDS Republicans?I ask this question
with genuine intellectual curiosity. Please share your thoughts.Thank you!
Re: my two cents worth | 10:37 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 "Wow! I can come
out of the "non-Republican" closet at church"Most
people leave politics at the door when they enter a house of worship. Its a
sign of maturity.
Speaking of stereotypes...the liberal left wants everyone to believe that
because conservatives generally lean toward smaller government and more
self-reliance, they want all the poor to "fend for themselves". They
constantly portray Republicans as rich fat cats who could not care less if poor
people starve, are sick, or have decent shelter. I have heard Obama say this
very thing numerous times.In my view, conservatives are much more
likely to dig into their own pockets in order to help out someone in need than
are liberals. Nowhere is that more evident than among the Mormon population.
They volunteer their time and give their own money to a whole bunch of programs
that help the needy. Just because they don't want to be forced to do this by a
huge bloated government, the left is constantly trying to demonize them and all
..This study is opinion, by people on the outside looking in...I would suggest
that if you really want to find out about these things, that you come on in and
discover them for yourselves. The main requirement is that you are sincere in
your Christian perspective.
@atl134 - if a gallup survey concluded that 79% of LDS are active, that's pretty
big indictment of gallup's credibility on LDS surveys. Even in the strongest
areas of the church, a 79% activity rate in any ward would be the envy of
everyone else in the stake. A 70% activity rate in Utah County is pretty good.
60% activity rate is pretty good elsewhere in Utah, and anything above 50% would
be considered very good in most places outside Utah.Yes, the church
wants to hold onto its liberal members, and its conservative members, and its
socialist members and whatever legitimate and ethical political party any member
of the world may belong to. That's why the Church sticks to the business of
salvation and rigidly adheres to political neutrality. It appears
that your comment was a support of my claim. I welcome your support, and agree
with your premise that conservatives should not use religious sanctimony as a
hammer against the entire liberal belief system. Liberal LDS members, although
in the minority, are no less prone to self righteousness, and could certainly
use the same advice.
PaganOnce again you have proved the point that you are a one trick
pony. Its always about gay rights.
@Sammybigdog" Above average interest in politics yet one of
lowest rates of actual voters. Hard to explain that one."No it
isn't. The explanation is that Mormons are busier than most people.- We
have one less day to conduct our business and run errands than everyone else.- Because we have larger families, LDS parents have fuller schedules.-
Because we tend to be single-income, LDS breadwinners tend to work more
hours.- We have church callings, many of which take lots of our limited
free time.- We're supposed to be reading scriptures individually and as a
family, saying prayers multiple times a day, holding family home evening once a
week, attending 3 hours of church a week, etc. All that cuts into our time to
do things like vote.
'Until the Democrats stop preaching the virtues of abortion they will remain a
minority for those in Utah who vote their conscience.' - Rifleman | 10:12 a.m.
Dec. 15, 2011 I am going to disagree with you here as well
Rifleman. Claiming this is a 'moral' stance... *Sen Kyl mocked for
making up numbers in abortion debate By Sara Israelsen-Hartley DSNews
04/12/11 *'Abortion foes' tactics highlight high NYC rate' - By
Cristian Salazar - AP - Published by DSNews - 04/06/11 when some are
caught LYING about abortion numbers. There is also the case about
making ANY abortion illegal... EVEN, in cases of rape and incest. *'Sharron Angle's Advice For Rape Victims Considering Abortion: Turn
Lemons Into Lemonade' - Sam Stein - Huffington Post - 07/08/10 And
last, many who are 'pro-life' also, with a few exceptions, support the death
penalty. As supported by: *'George Tiller Killed:
Abortion Doctor Shot At Church' - Huffington Post - 05/31/09 Scott
Roeder, who killed a man at his CHURCH... due to his stance AGAINST
abortion. And chose 'life.' How 'moral' are these claims, when faced
with the reality?
Did this study of stereotypes say nothing of green jello? What kind of a study
was it if it missed that one?
It will be interesting to see if members of the LDS church continue to
overwhelmingly support a party that continues to show an increasing not a
decreasing prejudice toward their faith and beliefs. Remember Mike Huckabee's
"cult" reference from the previous presidential election cycle. Look
at the current cycle which could be described as the "Anyone but Mitt
Primary Election". Really the party with the supposed family values is
going gaga over Newt Gingrich? Why? Because the rank in file members of the
republican party outside of the state of Utah would vote for practically anyone
to avoid voting for a Mormon. Most of those with strong Christian beliefs are
republicans, and those are the folks that will in no way consider voting for
Mitt.You can say a lot of things about the Democratic Party, but you
can't say that they have demonstrated the bigotry towards the LDS church that
the republican party has demonstrated.
Pagan's latest comment (11:28 a.m. Dec. 15) is akin to arguing that liberals
must be in favor of murder because certain liberals have committed murder.
To "Baccus0902 | 9:30 a.m." actually, capitalism is not cold and
heartless. It is the way that people get out of poverty. See the recent
article in the DN ambout MicroCredit in Africa, and how it is lifing the people
out of poverty.The bigger question that you should ask, is this: If
the LDS believe that you should work to take care yourself and your family, why
would any of them support socialism or the policies of the liberals?
My money's on the professors and their peer-reviewed study. The rest of you
"I once had a stats class" armchair academics ought to just relax. How
many of you have looked at the data? How many of you have done the calculations?
Or...how many of you are just somehow uncomfortable with the rather vanilla
conclusions. And why are we all wasting our time commenting on such a
I guess it wouldnt be a sterotype if a a fair number of people didnt fit into
it. Lets remember that 43% of USA Mormons (which is a good number)
are not Republican and are probably much more moderate than todays "Party
I agree with everyone who has noted that there are more LDS outside of the U.S.
than in it, and therefore, more LDS who are NOT caucasian, NOT Republican, etc.
But, this study was about LDS members WITHIN the United States, so, it is what
it is. I have not been given access to the methodology of this study to
determine if their conclusions are accurate, so I can't complain about the
results at this time. All I know is what Trinity College tells us, that this
was a study of LDS members IN the U.S., so they did not factor in members living
in other countries, which of course would have changed the outcomes. So, please
relax!!!!!"A new study coming out of Trinity College in
Hartford, Conn., indicates that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints in the United States are..."
Sammybigdog writes "Above average interest in politics yet one
of lowest rates of actual voters. Hard to explain that one."And
then Brave Sir Robin counters with a long list of nobel reasons why the LDS are
too busy to vote.OK, I'll take a stab at it.Most LDS
live in Utah. The outcomes of Utah elections is generally a forgone conclusion
long before the polls open.Many just may look it as a futile effort.
@ Redshirt 1701 1:17Thank you for your opinion.However,I
stand by my position that Capitalism is selfish and dehumanizing. The theory of
Laissez Faire economic behavior is rooted in the individual skills to produce
wealth not as a means but as an end. This attitude is usually fueled not to
satisfy needs but the wants for power and dominance. Greed and avarice are
necessary to succeed in this limited economic world.Competition not
cooperation is the rule.Christ taught us to live and create
communities (Acts 2:42-47) Joseph Smith and the United Order was a continuation
of the same.As Rifleman 8:42 AM wrote: "If Jesus walked the
earth today his teachings would be unpopular with many who consider themselves
Christians"There are several economic schools that move away
from pure capitalism and look for a more balanced system. The most stable
societies on the world such as Sweden, Norway, Belgium, and others countries
rely in a mixed economic system. Understanding that human dignity is
paramount.Of course, there is more taxation. However, there are
still wealthy people. What you don't find is the poverty you find in capitalist
@ JT-XActually, 50,000 is a VERY large sample size. A sample that
large would yield a very small margin of error when using a 90% or higher
confidence level. For example, most political polls done during election years
are only samples of a thousand. So 50,000 is pretty dang big.
If I'm not mistaken, this is a study about the perception of what others think
ABOUT members of the Church, not the actual living reality. They probably also
don't think we dance, watch movies, or eat chocolate (and I mean GOOD
chocolate.) Is there more good chocolate out there? Places I can go dance?
This isn't the first study or evidence that the mormon church inflates its
membership numbers. Census from a number of foreign countries have shown the
actual number of mormons in those countries to be far lower than as reported by
the mormon church. I don't know if anyone has done a study on why
the numbers are inflated.
I'm LDS, not based in Utah, married with no children and work full time. I am
not a republican or democrat but I am registered to vote. I have been registered
republican, raised by wonderful parents who were regisitered democracts. I guess
I don't fit the mold to say. I thought the study was interesting reading. One
thing I have learned lately is do not discuss politics with my friends that are
LDS. I was shocked how some of them felt politically. All I know is if newt and
president obama are the choices than I might not vote.
Re: Rifleman "Most Mormons believe in the sanctity of life and believe in
personal responsibility. Until the Democrats stop preaching the virtues of
abortion they will remain a minority for those in Utah who vote their
conscience. " I am a socialist and our time is coming. As to the sanctity
of life I am in some agreement with you. If a couple has unprotected sex and a
pregnancy results - they have invited a human life into the world. I do not
believe in abortion as birth control. However, I am not going to interject
myself between a woman and her doctor, which people of your persuasion are
determined to do. This one tough issue for all of us.
ThinksIThink | 3:16 p.m. Dec. 15, 2011 SEATTLE, WA This isn't the
first study or evidence that the mormon church inflates its membership numbers.
Census from a number of foreign countries have shown the actual number of
mormons in those countries to be far lower than as reported by the mormon
church. @thinksIthink, Agreed. I am the only active member in my
immediate and extended family. Yet none of my family members who have been
bapitized have had their names removed from the church records. Thus, I am
certain they are all counted in the overall membership. When you look at the
overall list of inactive members in the church, it would cause the numbers to
significantly drop, including in Utah. Frankly I think it is very possible that
the percentage of active LDS adults in Utah who could be voters compared to the
overall population of adults in Utah who could be voters is less than 50%.
These members who believe there is no need to vote will be surprised one day by
not showing up at the polls. Utah's population is gradually changing; the
mormons will eventually lose the majority here.
To "Baccus0902 | 2:27 p.m." let me counter that by saying that if you
don't like capitalism, that only leaves socialism or some other collectivist
type of economic model, and that is contrary to the teachings of the LDS
church.Read the talk "A Vision and a Hope for the Youth of
Zion" by Ezra Taft Benson. He is quite clear in defining the United Order
and its differences form communism. He states "Is the united order a
communal system? Emphatically not. It never has been and never will be. It is
"intensely individualistic." Does the united order eliminate private
ownership of property? No." He then continues to be more direct when he
said that "There are some among us who would confuse the united order with
socialism. That is a serious misunderstanding."Again in 1986 we
heard from Gordon B. Hinkley in November 1986 stated that we are in a war over
agency and compulsion, and that compulsion is not the Lord's way. So, if you
don't like capitalism, and believe in socialism and believe it is good to compel
a person to do good, who's side are you on?
In the 1960s, Elder Ezra Taft Benson, a standing member of the Twelve, actively
campaigned for Barry Goldwater. Go back and read some of his Conference talks
from the 1960s, and then say the the leaders have always been politically
neutral. Read his statements on the Civil Rights movement being a tool of
International Communism. Go back further, and read what Pres. Joseph F. Smith
had to say about labor unions. Aside from an official position, consider what
you encounter in your wards and stakes. Here in Texas, in a poor, mostly
minority ward, I heard men get up in a testimony meeting to urge people to vote
for Mitt Romney. You want to get dirty looks? Mention that you're a Democrat
in a stake High Council meeting. We used to have a moderate wing in the Church.
It was Lowell Bennion and Elder Hugh B. Brown. They're both dead.It is true that worldwide, Mormons are mostly of color, mostly poor, and if we
speak English at all, we do so as a second language. But nearly all of Mormon
wealth, Mormon education, and Mormon leadership comes from North America. There
is a yawning chasm between those groups.
"That war, so bitter, so intense, has gone on, and it has never ceased. It
is the war between truth and error, between agency and compulsion, between the
followers of Christ and those who have denied Him. His enemies have used every
stratagem in that conflict. Theyve indulged in lying and deceit. Theyve employed
money and wealth. Theyve tricked the minds of men. Theyve murdered and destroyed
and engaged in every other unholy and impure practice to thwart the work of
Christ."Gordon B. Hinckley 1986"Essential to our
doctrinal position on these matters is the difference between our freedom and
our agency. Our freedom can be limited by various conditions of mortality, but
Gods gift of agency cannot be limited by outside forces, because it is the basis
for our accountability to him."Dallin H. Oaks 1995 Our
agency IS a condition of mortal life. Every criminal in prison, every POW, even
Holocaust victims had agency. But they did not have freedom. For
the recordThe LDS Church does not take a stance on Roe v. Wade and is not
opposed to abortion in instances of rape, incest or health/life issues.
There are always ignorant members of the church who take it upon themselves to
tell you that you have to be Republican to be a good Mormon, even though there
are many apostles and prophets who have been Democratic. The church leadership
always declares political independence, and to research issues, think about
them, and pray.I can believe in pro-choice and still reconcile my
beliefs with the church. Free agency is a cornerstone. I basically hold to the
church views there for abortion: health of mother, rape and incest. I don't
however have to impose my views on others. Tracking every pregnancy would be
BIG GOVERNMENT anyway. Agent Smith would have to go to your prenatal checkup,
ladies--that would be good times. It could get very scary if the right takes it
far. Non-procreational sex could be a felony. The initiative that failed in
Mississippi--yes Mississippi, was very strict and scary.The
stereotypes, although probably earned, do the LDS religion a disservice. The
members in it, like any religion, are too complex to be broad-brushed (i.e.
Harry Reid and Mitt Romney). Both are good people and good members with
"Again in 1986 we heard from Gordon B. Hinkley in November 1986 stated that
we are in a war over agency and compulsion, and that compulsion is not the
Lord's way. So, if you don't like capitalism, and believe in socialism and
believe it is good to compel a person to do good, who's side are you
on?"What an absolute twisted and warped way to justify an
opinion that somehow Christ would prioritize wealth creation over compassion to
those who are presumably sons and daughters of our heavenly father - to whom we
have a stewardship as spiritual brothers and sisters. I find no where in his
teachings that say you should price things at what the market will bear, rather
that what is right and just. I find no where where Christ teaches that
economics should play any part in deciding what help the sick and elderly should
receive.The notion that we have to pick between full blown
capitalism and socialism over simplifies the issue and is embarrasing. No where
is it predicated that this is an either or question. This has nothing to do with
worthiness or membership. What a pompous presumption.
We have Democrat and even Green Party members up this way. Go to church and
activities together. No problems with getting along.
UteBlueDevil..Capitalism vrs socialism/communism is the choice we all face in
libs vrs conservatives everyday.....its not a presumption at all, its reality!
If the terms GOP and LDS are so interchangeable why are Republicans wanting
anybody but Mitt Romney? The Republican establishment seems to be for him but
only because of tax policies. I've always voted Republican in the presidential
elections until I became fed up with the prevailing attitudes that you cannot
simultaneously be a member in good standing and be a Democrat and that the
Church's official neutrality policy is always quoted with winks winks. Last week
I sat next to a businessman from Chicago who does business in Utah and Idaho and
he was shocked to realize that Senator Reid was a Mormon. Is this really how we
want to be viewed by others? Of course I am just as narrow minded because I
don't see how you can study the Book of Mormon and be a Republican.
Re: LDS 4. Research does not offer startling new info about Mormons According to
the report, "young men in the Mormon Culture Region are defecting at
substantially higher rates than young women.I was a young man when,I
left the Church over 25 years ago, when I became a Christian(Born from above, G.
509 John 3:3). My spouse is inactive (Jack Mormon).The church claiming 68
percent of Utah's citizenry in 2008 is Mormon and When you consider the small
Christian community in Utah and parts of SLC our very secular. Utah has
probably the least Christian community in the U.S
"young men in the Mormon Culture Region are defecting at substantially
higher rates than young women, creating a growing gender imbalance and a surplus
of Mormon women. In Utah, self-identified Mormon women outnumber men by a ratio
of 3 to 2."I just realized something... this may be the most
skewed the gender ratio has ever been in church history.
Baccus0902: selfish and dehumanizing values of the cold capitalism preached by
(Republicans)? Newsflash: Capitalism is an economic system, not a moral
system nor a religion. LDS like myself have no issue, whatsoever,
with charity for the poor. We just dont want the bloated, inept federal
government doing the job. Ronald Reagan said in 1962: I didnt
leave the Democrat Party. The party left me. You might want to pick up the
book How Can You Possibly Be a Mormon and a Democrat? by Clinton Joe Andersen,
Jr. and then try to respond to that question in 2011.
Baccus0902: The world runs on individuals pursuing their separate interests.
The great achievements of civilization have not come from government bureaus.
Einstein didnt construct his theory under order from a bureaucrat. Henry Ford
didnt revolutionize the automobile industry that way.In the only
cases in which the masses have escaped from the kind of grinding poverty youre
talking about, the only cases in recorded history, are where they have had
capitalism and largely free trade.If you want to know where the
masses are worse off, its exactly in the kinds of societies that depart from
that. So that the record of history is absolutely crystal clear; that there is
no alternative way, so far discovered, of improving the lot of the ordinary
people that can hold a candle to the productive activities that are unleashed by
a free enterprise system. Milton Friedman, Economist and Nobel prize winner
NT and PGVikingDad, you miss the point. The Church has not asked me to vote for
a particular candidate. However, the Church is closely identified with the GOP,
something that was not helped when a certain Church leader said from the pulpit
that he was a Republican and then said something to the effect that he shouldn't
have said that. Come on. But the tight cultural connection to the GOP hurts
the Church in spreading the Gospel. I know for a fact it does in the East and
in Europe. So NT, what progress do you think I want? Maybe I think the Gospel
should go out to everyone, not just those who fit into the stereotype. If the
Church wants to truly be a global church, it cannot culturally, socially and
otherwise be so tied to one political party that only 7% of Utah members admit
they are Democrats.And to Rifleman and others who state that the LDS
Church teaches chastity and moral cleanliness. I agree, so who is the leading
candidate of your chosen political party? Whoops!
Baccus0902: "Democracy and socialism have nothing in common but one word,
equality. But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty,
socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." Alexis de
oldcougar | 1:35 p.m. Dec. 15, 2011Orem, UTMy money's on the
professors and their peer-reviewed study. The rest of you "I once had a
stats class" armchair academics ought to just relax. How many of you have
looked at the data? How many of you have done the calculations? Or...how many of
you are just somehow uncomfortable with the rather vanilla conclusions. And why
are we all wasting our time commenting on such a meaningless piece? Spot on 100%!!! LOL @ all the uproar, why are people so defensive about this
study??? the article clearly states that it was done on lds members in the u.s.
surely no one will argue that the majority of american mormons are white and
repubs, would they??? men lie, women lie, numbers dont.
"But, this study was about LDS members WITHIN the United States, so, it is
what it is. I have not been given access to the methodology of this study to
determine if their conclusions are accurate, so I can't complain about the
results at this time. All I know is what Trinity College tells us, that this was
a study of LDS members IN the U.S., so they did not factor in members living in
other countries, which of course would have changed the outcomes."No, it was about the contiguous 48 states, or as we in the Great Land refer to
you, the smaller 48. Once again we in Alaska feel the "prejudice" of
not belonging to the US. However, if the researchers had the statistics for AK
and HI, I can understand why they left them out. It would have skewed their
"results."Also, although LDS in lower 48 may be 59%
Republican, Mormons tend to be more moderate Republicans than evangelicals.
Hence their distrust of LDS Republicans.And, just a guess, but I'll
bet more LDS are either Libertarian or Independent in their political views, no
matter how they've registered.
Capitalism is only an economic system, but corporations are people? Half of the adults in this country live at or near the poverty line. Half.
Ninety percent of the people in the world live in abject poverty. One of the
great motivators for the early success of Mormonism in England was the horror
wrought by the Industrial Revolution. When Wilford Woodruff arrived in northern
England as a missionary, a place where capitalism was in full flower, unfettered
by any sort of intervention, Wilford Woodruff sat down and wrote in his journal,
"I have seen Hell, and it is Manchester." Mormonism was seen as an
escape from that, a promise that there was something greater than having (to use
Isaiah's phrase) you face ground under the heel of the master class.Elder Benson is half right. The United Order is fiercely individualistic, but
it is individualistic in a communal framework. Everything about Mormonism is
communal and communitarian: Wards. Stakes. Most importantly, families: we are
interdependent and interconnected. "They had all things common" sure
sounds commual to me...
Mormons teach the theory of free agency but then turn around and attempt to
control the decisions by women concerning what they do with their own bodies.I think it was the Devil that wanted to force people to get back into heaven
by dictating how they lived their lives. Isn't that what the Republicans want to
do as well?? I agree, the majority of U.S. Mormons are Republicans but in
the process, practice the will of Satan in a lot of their actions. Don't
believe me??? I'll be you $10,000 on it right now.
owlmaster2: "the decisions by women concerning what they do with their own
bodies"I think that would be the bodies of the babies they are
To "owlmaster2 | 6:30 p.m." first, let me correct one of the things
that you said. There is no such thing as "free agency". It is simply
"agency" we have the ability to make choices and we will reap the
consequences of those choices.Next, when it comes to abortion, you
are not looking at it from an agency stand point. The woman made the choice
(agency) when she decided to have sex with a man. The result (consequence) of
that choice was that she became pregnant. On top of that, when getting an
abortion, she is killing an innocent child that has done no wrong.The Republicans do have factions that are are equal to the Democrats, they are
called Progressives. They have the same end goal, just a different name and
method going there.The Conservatives are the ones who are looking to
protect the lives of the innocent, and are doing what it takes to allow the US
to be free and prosper. The liberals would have us follow Europe off the same
cliff that they are about to go over.
To: owlmaster2 | 6:30 p.m. Dec. 15, 2011 Kaysville, UT - as a non-member of the
LDS faith, I have never heard any member I know say that the LDS church tries
"to control the decisions by women concerning what they do with their own
bodies". Are you making a reference to birth control or abortion? Based on
my impression and understanding, the LDS faith stresses agency and understanding
how to best use that agency. The individual is then free to exercise that
agency. There is a big difference between encouraging people to be accountable
and forcing them to live a certain life-style that you say the Republicans are
pushing. While I am an independent voter, you need to understand the basis of
both sides of the argument.
@ be practical.I understand the choosing of life as the number one
priority over choosing a choice to replace it.However, the self
reliance thing is so brain washed into wealthy evangelicals heads. In our
economy and current capitalistic situation, it has long been impossible for
large volumes of people to earn a livable wage. Despite the fact
that there are plenty of so called 'entitled folk' and unmotivated individuals,
there are all too many Americans who can't live on their wages. This has been
the trend since the early 90's. Capitalism has been failing us for a long
time.I wonder how history will record our fall. The failed Soviet
experiments have clouded our judgment of our own nationalistic self. We need to
look in the mirror, and it has to come from those that earn the most. Show some
humanity for the less fortunate.
I'd be more interested to see a study on the stereotypes Mormons have then on
stereotypes of Mormons. Seems we're always interested in looking outward, but
The last shall be first and the first shall be last.
I don't know what a stereotypical mormon is. I don't mind that they exist.
However, I'm not one. I expect what is mine politically, socially and
economically in our society. Stereotypical mormons exist. But they are just
stereotypical mormons. I am a stereotypical American. I'm not giving that up
because I live here.
However do you know what is truly ironic? The faith which would most easily
implement a socialist agenda is the LDS Church. The memory of 19th century
collectivism is still there. Moreover, the Church welfare program is effective
and very extra-market. Some form of socialism is on the way. I anticipate the
LDS church will be present with its own brand of it.
Re:RedshirtIf Conservatives were truly concerned about the lives of the
"innocent" they wouldn't oppose making birth control more economical,
they wouldn't be defunding healthcare clinics for women and they wouldn't
support in vitro fertilization. Why is abortion permissible in cases of
rape and incest? Furthermore, agency doesn't stop at conception.Women bear the emotional, physical, spirititual and financial consequences of
unplanned pregnancies and therefore the decision making must be hers.
@Truthseeker - family members also bear the emotional, physical, spiritual, and
financial consequences of caring for unplanned severely mentally challenged
people, unplanned severely crippled people, and unplanned seniors who can't care
for themselves. Should the decision of the life and death of these people be up
to the family members in charge of their care?Just because it's
inconvenient to care for another human being doesn't make it right to kill them.
@Lasvegaspam.My apologies, I answered to your comment last night
before going to bed. This morning I see my comment was denied by the bastion of
security and truth of the DN.My only suggestion to you is for you to
study a little bit more of politics, beyond the Capitalist parties such as the
Republican and Democrats versions of the U.S.A.. You can explore Social
Democracy, Christian Democrats, Europe is a source of vibrant new and old
ideas.Please read the prophets after the book of Psalms, The Book of
Mormon is a great source of community work...."There were no poor among
them". What a beautiful statement.I hope this comment is
allowed, if not, I'm sorry. (I sound like Moroni :)I want to assure
you the Following: You and I think differently about politics.But what is
more important hopefully both of us are united in pursuing a better future for
ourselves, our country and the world.Peace!
@ Ms Molli | 8:41 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 "And get to know them on a
day other than Sunday. People are often very different on church days than the
other 6 days of the week (and that applies to other religious groups as well).
"Amen. Truer words were never spoken.re: Rifleman |
8:42 a.m. Dec. 15, 2011 "I like your Christ. I do not like
Christians. Christians are so unlike your Christ."
My quote previously in reply to Rifleman is from Ghandi
I find it very interesting that so many people accuse Republicans or capitalists
of being cold, calculating, and greedy. Most republicans are not against giving
to the poor, helping the sick and the needy. They are just against having a
bureaucratic government do it for them. I actually really resent this
stereotype. Studies show that, statistically, republicans give more to charity
than democrats. (google it) Jesus told us to care for the sick and needy, he
never suggested that we have the government do it for us.
So, according to this study (which was apparently done by Mormon sociologists?),
over 41% of US Mormons will not even admit that they are Mormon when asked in
confidence so that nobody would even know.
"Dwight89 | 2:44 p.m. Dec. 15, 2011 @ JT-XActually, 50,000 is a VERY large sample size. A sample that large would yield
a very small margin of error when using a 90% or higher confidence level. For
example, most political polls done during election years are only samples of a
thousand. So 50,000 is pretty dang big"OK, Dwight, my issue is
not so much with the sample size, which would be adequate if applied per capita
across the entire United States (something we have no evidence of). But to
agree with AKMama, they obviously left out AK and HI because those results would
skew their desired results. Or else, why claim that it was a poll of US
Mormons? My other point about Puerto Rico not being included stands, for the
same reason.I believe there is enough inference to believe that they
started out with a set of stereotypes, and went in search of data that would
confirm them.Those stereotypes are probably true over the lower 48.
Just don't call it a US study if it ain't. Glad I came back to this
All that is important is that we have faith In God and Jesus Christ and love our
All that is important is that we be able to have faith In God and Jesus
Christ....or NOT have faith. The beliefs of the the non-religious and/or secular
people are just as important as those of the religious and neither one should
have a favored status over the other even if they are a majority. Love of our
fellow man is good in theory, but poor in practice. Love of your fellow man is a
worn-out, over-used phrase that many--both religious and non-religious people
often preach, but often don't practice. It's a myth to believe we all can love
each other just because we all exist. The conflicts and differences are too
great. I prefer the "the brotherhood of man" (generic)....however we
have a long way to go before acheiving that. The good effort of each person
benefits all people; the error or evil of each man augments the trials of all
men. As the progress of the whole, so the progress of the part.
Baccus0902 Appreciate your words and would encourage you to study, rather than
European versions of democracy, our Founders ideas. I consider myself a
Classical Liberal of the Jeffersonian type and entirely believe Gods words:
And for this purpose have I established the Constitution of this land, by the
hands of wise men whom I raised up unto this very purpose D&C 101:80In addition, my entire family resides in Denmark. There are poor among
them today, despite their socialism. Poor Muslim immigrants attempting to enter
Denmark today are discriminated against, openly. Their socialistic system is
breaking down, in part, due to young couples unwillingness to replace themselves
via birthrate. There are not enough young workers to support their elderly.
All is not merry and bright, yet Scandinavia is often falsely pointed to as a
model. Youll notice I have chosen to live/work in THIS land, and
attempt to defend it from the erroneous ideas that have weakened our nation, our
people and our Constitution; the greatest of which is modern-day liberalism.
Lasvegaspam(M)y entire family resides in Denmark. There are poor among
them today, despite their socialism. Poor Muslim immigrants attempting to enter
Denmark today are discriminated against, openly. Their socialistic system is
breaking down, in part, due to young couples unwillingness to replace themselves
via birthrate. There are not enough young workers to support their elderly. All
is not merry and bright, yet Scandinavia is often falsely pointed to as a
model.LDS4I served my mission in Denmark a few decades ago and
that was evident even then. The high taxes forced all women to work and
therefore few kids were born. People were too tired to deal with kids. They
also couldn't afford a larger home and other expenses that come with kids.
Again, due to heavy taxation. Socialism forces couples to "circle the
wagons" and "hunker down". They aren't going to spend money on
kids. They were importing Turks and other "Mohamedaner"
even then because they needed workers to pay taxes to support their generous
welfare state. When I was there, the sales tax was 23%.Socialism is
a recipe for social suicide.
@VankaWell there's the matter of people who have left the church but whose
names haven't been removed from the records. That's probably the largest chunk
of the 41%. Also, was this a survey of adults only? That might influence things
a bit since I assume the LDS church has a higher share of the youngest age
demographics with all those kids.
MoniqueCHANDLER, AZAre you talking as a percentage of income about
charity? Remember the widow's mite. The Republican party, especially the tea
party wing is currently designing to repeal the popular election of Senators.
Also, they are trying to disenfranchise as many Democrat voters as they can.
They want a gold backed dollar because it is easier to hoard. They want to
control the Federal Reserve System. They will cut benefits to current social
security recipients if they get in control. In short, they want to take America
back to the pre Teddy Roosevelt days. They have never accepted defeat by the
progressive gains during his term as president. I do not care how many people
they fool but it is not me.
@ Baccus IF there is less poverty in nations under a socialist system, how
would you explain the abject poverty of so many in places like Cuba, China and
FDRfanThe Republican party, especially the tea party wing is currently
designing to repeal the popular election of Senators. LDS4Why is
that wrong? We have a House and a Senate. The former was supposed to represent
the people and the latter, the states. With the popular selection of senators,
the interests and rights of the states are being ignored.FRRFanAlso, they are trying to disenfranchise as many Democrat voters as they
can.LDS4Huh? Asking people to present photo ID, like they do when
cashing a check, rent a car, but beer, etc...is reasonable to prevent voter
fraud (dead people voting in Chicago, illegals voting, etc...). States give
photo IDs for free.FDRFanThey will cut benefits to current
social security recipients if they get in control.LDS4If those
benefits aren't cut, just like other entitlement programs, those programs will
be bankrupt and vanish. Businesses will cut pay in order to keep afloat. This
is better than going our of business and then there is NO paycheck. Government
simply printing fiat money doesn't solve this problem, it makes it worse. This
is why we are in the me we are currently.
The researchers (who are Mormon) said the Church has been "treading
water" in terms of growth over the past 18 years, with as many leaving as
are coming in.
That means I must be doing something right.
@PGVikingDad - the Church is officially silent on political affiliation.
However, the overwhelming slant of members of the Church towards the Republican
Party gives the perception (whether that perception is warranted or not) that
the Church is tilted in one direction. I, for one, am a temple worthy member of
the Church who identifies very strongly with the liberal wing of the Democratic
Party, and I even doubly identify with the Green Party. Why? Because I am
concerned for the welfare of my family, and I believe that things like the
success of Occupy Wall Street may just be the best political blessing that my
family (as well as the families of all Americans) could receive. I don't
believe that conservatives hold the monopoly on "family values" as
they would have Christians believe, and I believe there's a lot more value on
families within liberalism and progressivism. And remember, I still hold my
@lds4gaymarriage - regarding your comment about being required to show ID, the
ID itself may be free, but some of the people most impacted by these new laws,
such as the elderly, would have to spend money to acquire documentation proving
their identity to obtain such ID to begin with, which is why the Justice
Department is investigating whether or not this amounts to a poll tax.
Furthermore, the percentages of voter fraud are so infinitesimal compared to the
number of voters who would be disenfranchised by these new laws. These laws are
clearly politically motivated, not born out of concern for voting integrity.