This is just laughable. Part of the reason I chose to no longer attend BYU-I was
this self-proclaimed self righteousness by the Testing Center at this
university. The other main reason is because I wanted to be closer to home so I
decided to attend Idaho State Univ. instead. There were two seperate
incidents when I went into the testing center and got sent home. Both times were
because I had a 5 o'clock shadow or so they said. I hadn't shaved in about 18
hours or so and I was refused the opportunity to take a test and had to return
home. I don't hold any grudges and really could care less but sending people
home for frivolous things and posting "stupid" signs in the testing
center do more damage than any good it is supposed to do. Infact it's offensive
to turn people away for having a 5 oclock shadow or wearing tight fitting jeans.
Let them take the test and let the Savior judge. Do you think the SAvior turns
people away from the atonement because they have 5 o'clock shadows or wear tight
fitting jeans. come on!
I read about this on Gawker and was surprised at the number of people there who
both understood the dress code and expressed surprise that the student would
take exception to this enforcement. That said, now that I have read both the
sign that was posted and read the testing center managers response, I am going
to side on this "ban" being completly overboard and self righteous.
You know, one talk from the conference center pulpit encouraging members of the
Church to not be self-righteous and overzealous and Pharisaical would do more PR
good than a million dollars worth of "I'm a Mormon" ads.
I would, have, and do pay for my kids to attend all of the BYU affiliate
locations. I have an EXTREMELY difficult time with the differences in the
acceptable standards at these universities. What is OK at Provo is not OK in
Rexburg and what is OK in Laie is absolutely not acceptable at Rexburg or Provo.
The HONOR CODE and DRESS Code are based on the EXACT same documents. HOW can the
acceptable standards for dress be so different? Is the shape of the legs in
Provo any less shapely than they are in Rexburg? And in Laie there really isn't
much doubt as to their shape as "long" shorts are acceptable. The
Board of Directors should create a committee to standardize ALL LDS affiliated
universities. Get control of these renegade employees. I HATED the Testing
Center experience, I felt more violated there than anywhere on or off campus.
Abolish the testing center. Let the folks that run it find someplace else to
work; where they can force their version and meaning of the Honor Code and Dress
Code onto the student body. I recommend either the snow removal teams or the
swimsuit issue room.
Does anybody know why the honor code at BYU-I and BYU-Provo are different? They
are not vastly different but they are different and the enforcement, from this
article, appears to be different. I don't think the testing center in Provo
would be able to do this. The curfews are also different.Are the
rules and their enforcement different because of different University
Presidents? On a mission the rules and their interpretation are often left up
to the mission presidents (i.e. what is Sacrament Meeting appropriate music. My
two mission presidents allowed different music and had different ways of judging
if it was appropriate)?
This is crazy! I love BYU and all that it stands for but come on people. Skinny
Jeans. Really? What I want to know is did they elicit immoral thoughts for the
person who was working at the testing center that day? IF they did then he/she
had better watch his or her thoughts.
@chubbuckidahocougfan "Do you think the SAvior turns people
away from the atonement because they have 5 o'clock shadows or wear tight
fitting jeans. come on!"Amen Brother! I couldn't agree with you
There was a woman that was pregnant and didn't have much in maternity clothes.
She went to the testing center with the one item of clothing that fit her. She
was turned away, because she was told it didn't meet the standard. She is
pregnant and uncomfortable already and couldn't afford to buy clothes. Seems
ridiculous that some student at a desk has the ability to judge in the Saviors
place, what is appropriate and what isn't.I wonder how anyone in a
third world country could attend the school. Most people wear flip flops or go
barefoot. Is God going to punish them for being poor? I doubt it.
Odd rule.But very ugly jeans also.
Wow. Just wow. Is BYU-I located in Colorado City?? Because that is definitely
a form of religious fanaticism.
"We have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of
almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they
will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."Hopefully, the administration has had a chat with the testing center director.
I operate a college testing center at a public school. I remember the day when
I told a lady she would need to wait a few minutes to take her test until a
computer opened up that would not place her in close proximity to another
examinee. She had fragrance that was extremely strong and I felt that it could
be a potential distraction to others nearby, especially if they had any level of
allergies. She demanded to know who my supervisor was and that she had never
had anybody tell her that she "smelled." I marched her right in to
meet with him after I explained what had taken place. By the time she had
filled his office with her aroma, a seat opened that I could place her at.
@chubbuckidahocougfanLeviticus 19:27 clearly states that men should
not cut their hair or trim their beards. I would have mentioned that at the
If BYU is going to enforce their "Dress Code" and "Grooming
Code" perhaps all LDS schools should adhere to the same rule?I
get a chuckle when I see Riley Nelson (BYU's QB) with long hair and all the
players that sport tattoo's these days. Just sayin!
Not surprised by this story.My son has extremely sensitive, fair
skin and dark hair. He was turned away from the cafeteria on his first day of
school as a freshman at BYU Provo being told he needed to go shave. He had
shaved the evening before. Of course, he didn't have time to shave and eat so
went without breakfast. Welcome to BYU!Having grown up in UT I
chose not to attend BYU so as not to be subjected to the zealous
"letter-of-the-law" people which seem to abound there.
The Testing Center has caused more bad feelings and embarrassment over these
issues than any entity on campus. I think the administration has liked it, in
the past, that the Testing Center has done the "dirty work" of dress
code enforcement, but now they are reaping the whirlwind of bad publicity. These
silly issues do a lot of PR damage, for the school and the church. Testing
Center management needs a good talking to, or perhaps a reassignment.
My favorite BYU testing center story along these lines was my mom's roommate in
the 1970s, back when women had to wear dresses--she showed up to take a test in
pants and a long coat. The staff refused to let her in, so she went to a
bathroom and removed the pants, and then she was allowed in to take the test in
her coat alone. More modest, for sure.
So if the testing center already has the answer then why council someone to go
and ask- oh right so they can get their own witness of something already
decided- this is what we have come to- what a sad commentary- three days to
remove the sign- some admin. was asleep I would say
There's the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law. When people comply
with the spirit of the law, the letter of the law will follow. Then there are
those that are claiming to be the fashion police on campus. I'm sure there are
worse fashion crimes than skinny jeans in the testing center. Look
at it this way - there is no way of smuggling in notes to cheat with if they
were wearing skinny jeans.
As former student at BYU never wear something that might offend testing center
staffs but can get away from it at regular classes. Good grief, last year was
about Brandon Davies and now BYU-I. Don't you love those outsiders medias! Lol!
What happened to "I teach them correct principles and they govern
themselves?-Joseph Smith." Why should there be ANY enforcement of the
dress code? Why not just teach the standard and then the students choose? If a
few grow beards and long hair, who cares? What is really at stake here?
Sometimes small things really are just small things.
Good for them. With almost no standards today, it is nice to see a University
taking a stand on the critical nature of moral conduct.
It sound like somebody at the testing center was on a power trip. Too bad.
BYU Idaho is laughable.
I attend BYU-Idaho. I just want repeat what this article already did: there is
no ban on skinny jeans. There is only the ban on tight-fitting clothes which
had already been in effect. Now, students here really need to strive to live
the dress and grooming standards that they agreed to when they signed the honor
code. That said, students working in the testing center have at
times abused their authority... or rather, their perceived authority. Sorry,
but the student working at the testing center is not a common judge in
Israel.Still, students spend way too much time complaining. You are
receiving a quality education for very little money. Is not wearing flip-flops
really ruining your day?
I loved my experience at BYU-Idaho, but am not surprised by this story
unfortunately. I know too many people, myself included, who have had run-ins at
the testing center there for exteremely trivial things. When I was there, the
debate over capris pants was all the rage and they ended up being banned from
campus too. Not sure if they're still banned or not. Needless to
say, I agree that the church needs to standardize how the honor code and dress
code are applied for all of the church-sponsored schools. It's embarrassing to
see a story like this go viral and the self-righteous attidudes of a few make it
seem like everyone at the university is the same way. The sign posted at the
testing center and the manager's comments about praying over the matter
(referring to those who wear skinny jeans) demonstrate this exact attitude
These types of rules are some of the reasons I would not go to byu. Many of the
rules seem to go beyond the commandments the Lord has given us. Also, I
subscribe to Joseph Smith's teaching of "Teach them correct principles and
let them govern themselves". That said, some people do choose to go to byu
knowing that they have a strict honor code. If you choose to go there, you
choose to follow the rules, whether you agree with their interpretations or not.
I know some people on here have given good arguments e.g. a pregnant woman not
being able to afford maternity clothes. I certainly do not wish to judge anyone.
My only thought on that is maybe that woman's ward could have helped her get
some maternity clothes. The Book of Mormon teaches that the Lord will provide a
way for us to obey.
I was wondering how many "couldn't get in with my jeans so I took them off
and just went in with my overcoat on" stories there would be.I
always thought those were made up and apocryphal until my sister-in-law, a
mission president's wife, told of doing so -- in the 60's. I think that
approach has been taken by thousands of women over the years; almost as many
women have done that as ridiculously immature people have upheld
"their" version of the honor code at the Testing Center. Oops, let's
just make that BYU, er, BYU-U, BYU-I, BYU-H.
'Several students recently were turned away for wearing the form-fitting jeans
by BYU-Idaho testing center employees who stretched their interpretation of the
university's dress and grooming standards too far.' - Article
Agreed. And, it appears, many of the posters on this story. First, let me clarify, it is NOT my place to tell BYU-Idaho what to do. I do
not claim to be part of that faith, or demographic. That said, in my
personal opinion, I think this is a waste of time. A futile excercise that only
shows the things that make us different INSTEAD of focusing on what makes us
alike. Instead of focusing on persons who wear little clothing, now
the issue is how far away the clothing is from your skin? I've seen
skinny jeans in the 70's and I see them today. You know what changed? Nothing. We are all still here. Still trying to get by and we do
NOT need this aggravation when factually COVERING all of our...parts. This is a waste of energy and resources to force people to adhere to rules
that differ depending on who your talking too. And, everyone is free
to do as they wish.
There has to be a better way to 'enforce' the honor code. I once worked for an
airline where employees and their families were allowed to fly standby for free
and the airline established a dress code for such travelers. The policy turned
our gate agents into what was known as the 'gestapo' of fashion police.
I understand the outrage, but BYU is a private university. If you don't want to
abide by whatever code they have, don't go there... it really is that simple.
I can't believe this, I'm so glad I'm a Ute!!
I think this is about as hillarious as it can get, but more seriously what
happens when radical "ultra-traditionalist Mullah's" decide to start
interpreting the BYU Honor Code as to their own set of rules being guided by the
"strictness of the law as opposed to the "spirit of the law."
BYU-Idaho testing center manager John Dexter obviously needs a formal reprimend
for going beyond the mark on this one. BYU-Idaho president Kim Clark should
call him into his office and deliver it himself. President Clark like his
counterpart in Provo Cecil Samuelson have the charge to encourage adhearence to
the dress and grooming aspect of the Honor Code. Samuelson gave a great talk on
the matter shortly after assuming office nearly 8 years ago.This
reminds me in a more cynical way of an instance at BYU (Provo) 30 years ago
where a female student removed her jeans and took a test wearing a long
overcoat. That was the hillarious memory for me! You don't get ahead in the
church or in life by trying to be hideously strict in such interpretations!
All this "Honor Code" nonsense makes me laugh, whether it's skinny
jeans, bare midriffs, beards, long hair, or whatever.Those of us who
aren't affiliated with the BYU system have an honor code as well: It's called
the scriptures and the words of the living prophets. Isn't that enough of an
The fact is, employees of the testing center should not be making, or put in the
position to have to make, decisions regarding a student's keeping the dress
portion of the honor code. Employees should be administering tests and no more.
Only university and church officials should be reviewing cases where there are
violations. The "honor" code not only implies integrity, but also
implies that students be allowed to be "on their honor," in
determining how they will maintain the standards. In maintaining all these
standards, we must also "honor" free agency.
I am an active LDS church member, but I am disgusted with some of the
self-righteous members. I am sorry, but dress standards do change with time.
Women were required to wear dresses, but now pants are perfectly acceptable.
Facial hair used to be perfectly fine. I could never go to BYU because of the
strict, non-doctrine based rules. Being "clean cut" or wearing modest
shorts doesn't automatically make you a better person or in better standing with
the church. Premoting this ridiculous notion just confuses people. (This man has
to be a good person because he doesn't have a beard and is clean cut. I can
I don't have a problem with the honor code or enforcing it. I'm just not sure
how they can have a student judge another student. Since byu schools have the
same code, but, vary in what is allowed. The same goes with student
interpretations. The "police" student might be more or less strict
than the student putting on clothes. The question is, how do you stay
consistant on the judging part? A girl might wear jeans that she doesn't feel
are form fitting, but, because she is in better shape than the girl at the desk;
then she is judged more harshly since the boys seem to pursue her more.I'm just saying there doesn't seem to be a good way to judge items that come
close to the line. Obviously if the girl walks in with a sports bra and running
shorts, she will be turned away. If she comes in wearing a shirt that the girl
at the desk feels is too tight for her own taste even though it adheres to the
rules. That's another thing.
Reading these comments is like my experience at BYU in the late 1960's. It was
mini skirts back then. Girls were required to wear dresses, no pants. When one
chooses to attend a particular school, then one should also accept the rules. Go
somewhere else if you don't like it.
This is just the old manager of the Testing Center saying, "If your
standards are not my standards, you don't follow the Lord." The fact is
that the manager was over reaching and the one that wasn't in compliance with
the standards. Maybe he (or she) needs to go home and "pray about
it." This is funny. The old generation is always trying to
keep the young from "pushing the standards." I do the same with my
daughters, but the manager has less standing to make these decisions.
Do they also turn females away when their shirts are tight -- asking because I
see a lot of that in church by both the young women and some of the young
I thought the General Authorities was in charge of all the Church Universities.
A standardized Honor Code was developed by students and faculty years ago
as a guide for all.It sounds like sub-management at the various
schools are manipulating the Honor Code to use as a "Judge" for their
own standards. For students who are trying to honor the Code only to
realize that it still isn't good enough, you might consider looking for another
school with less control. There are plenty of secular Universities out
there where you can get a fine education. Also, there are many
Christian schools that would love to accept discouraged Mormon students. Now that this University "code control" issue is world wide
news again, it won't be long before we will see it on the Nightly NewsMore damage control needed.
I'm sadden by all these comments I'm a student at Brigham Young University Idaho
and it makes me sick how bad some of you want to justify your feelings. The fact
is the school is privately owned and operated by the church. Your education is
subsidized by the church you ARE GETTING A DEAL!!! Please take your bad
attitudes back to where ever you came from! I'm not perfect but, I learned that
the Lords servants can see and understand a lot farther down the road then any
of us PERIOD If you don't like it go to berkely were you pretty much wear
whatever or you don't have to wear any clothes either most don't! There are many
quiet faithful who can't attend because you are taking up their place I can't
believe you can call yourselves disciples of Christ! You are the product of
faithful pioneers who suffered a lot more then you did and all you can do is
complain because you have never had to sacrifice for your testimony and now you
do and guess what it doesn't look like your passing! 2Nephi 1:13-20
"If a student prays and they think that the tight, 'form-fitting' clothing
is accepted by the Lord, they have not asked, or have not asked the right
question, or they have chosen an answer for their own gratification,"
testing center manager John Dexter said. "I don't believe the Lord would
give approval to anyone to be disobedient to the CES Dress and Grooming
Standards."This says it all. A religion that teaches everyone
to use their agency, to pray and receive confirmation by the Lord in making
important decisions. Yet the unrighteous judgment by other members in claiming
that you weren't asking the right question or chosing the answer you wanted to
Solution: Go to the U of U! There are thousands of great LDS people who dress
modestly and are great people. I found my wife there, married in the temple,
and am loving life as a Ute! I never wore a beard, although it is nice to know
I would not have been kicked out of my test had I skipped shaving one morning.
I took wonderful religion classes during my entire time on campus. You don't
need the Honor Code to keep your testimony! All of the devotionals, etc., are
available for anyone to see/read, not just those on church campuses. The U
degree is no different. I work along side other U grads, Y grads, Ivy League
grads, etc. and we all get paid the same. There are no self-righteous people
administering tests. No one is being forced to be good. You are able to
quickly discern who really want to live the church standards. The U has dances,
firesides, and all of the LDS stuff you could want! No one forces you to drink
or smoke or be immodest etc. My faith, family, and education all flourished
there. In short, become a Ute!
This is ridiculous. The occupants of the great and spacious building have always
laughed at the LDS, but this gives them reason to. The value of my kid's BYU-I
education will go down because of stuff like this.I am troubled that my
own BYU-I attending daughter is being subjected to smug self-righteous
pharisees. I am offended by the testing center director's attitude of,
"Pray about it and, if you don't receive an answer that confirms my narrow
policy interpretation, then you are unrighteous."!
Definitely ridiculous and when I hear these stories, I think how would any of
the apostles or prophet respond? None of them would be as insensitive or self
righteous. If they had to tell someone to go change or anything they would do so
in a Christlike way.On my mission I was chastised all the time by
self righteous missionaries telling me to shave, when I'd shaved that morning
because I have a very thick beard. I hated it!
The biggest problem I see is that they have a bunch of students enforcing the
honor code. It's the same things here in Provo. You give someone a little power
and watch out, they are gonna use it. Testing Center, Intramural referees, the
gym or library. These students think they are doing some great service by
ratting these people out, but truly are manifesting unrighteous dominion. Just
listen to the "testing center manager" John Dexter, "If a student
prays and they think that the tight, 'form-fitting' clothing is accepted by the
Lord, they have not asked, or have not asked the right question, or they have
chosen an answer for their own gratification." This is where it goes wrong.
This kid already knows the answers the Lord gives to everyone when they pray and
accusses them or praying incorrectly. Now when I need an answer to a prayer I
know to go to John Dexter for the answer.
Any extreme interpretation of religion is bad... doesn't matter what religion it
So this guy that works at the testing center put up that sign? Please tell me he
is not a product of a church who teaches love, compassion and tolerance.
Individuals like him have zero right to go beyond the mark. His position of
"Authority" me thinks went right to his head.
Glad to hear it. Those jeans look so awful and most people do not have the body
type to even wear them. I think that wherever they sell such jeans should have a
sign that says 'Skinny jeans do not make you look skinny.' Why anyone would want
to stuff their bodies into such tight jeans so they can show off their bodies is
beyond me. I agree that they are breaking the dress code. Good for BYU-Idaho,
although I do think more notice should have been given. I hope BYU adopts this
I am totally in favor of the ban. Skinny jeans are just plain ugly, a fad, and
will be out-of-style by next year.A few other ugly trends that
should be banned on campus (or at least shunned):1) eyelash
extensions2) Mitt Romney's hair3) acid wash jeans4) crocs5) shape-up shoes6) plaid shorts7) UGG boots8) track
suits9) yoga pants at the grocery store10) comb-over hairstyles worn
by overbearing testing center managers
It is hard enough to convince kids to go to outer siberia to attend college. I
love the school and what it teaches its students, but this is just ridiculous.
It is thinking like this from "holier than thou" members that deprive
kids who are struggling to find their own spiritual legs. So many parents know
that if they can just get their kids to BYU or BYU-I they will grow spiritually,
but they are being rebuffed in those efforts by judgmental members who forget
the attitude the Savior had towards all men.
For every mile of PR that "I'm a Mormon" has accomplished, incidences
like this set us back two.Half the people I see in "I'm a
Mormon" ads couldn't get into that Biblical Testing Center in Idaho.
Hugh Nibley recognized the underlying root of the problem at the BYUs in his
talk "Zeal Without Knowledge." I recommend reading it. He said
"that is pure zeal that tends to breed a race of insufferable,
self-righteous prigs, and barren minds."I attended BYU and had
an overall good experience, but I agree with many here who are concerned that
the universities are beginning to produce a group of self righteous pharisees. I
would love to see an administrator and church authority finally address this
I'm not happy about sending my kids to BYU-I, but it's a financial
consideration. If we could have recieved in-state tuition at any other school
in Utah (except University of Utah, blech), some of our kids would have loved to
have attended. We were looking for a good education in a laid back setting with
lots of LDS kids at a decent price. I guess 3 out of 4 is ok. We keep
reminding our 2 BYU-I students that it's all about getting a good education.
It's not forever. Stick it out and get a degree and you can go anywhere you
fastgunrascon, c'mon. So, I am not a diciple of Christ if I wear perfectly
modest shorts or capris in the summer? By the way, the apostles are men, too.
They aren't perfect. They, too, have a human understaning, just like the rest of
Honor code or not - skinny jeans really don't look very good. I'll be glad when
fashion moves onto other styles.
I went to BYU after 5 years in the Military. I was in a 300 level Religion
class and the girl sitting next to me was knockout lovely and wearing a skirt
that almost met BYU standard. The professor made a really snarky comment to
her. She turned beet red and got up to leave.I stood up beside her
and called him on it in in very harsh terms front of the class. I had to find
another professor who would accept me in the class.[Got a few dates
out of it but she married a football player.]
Don't you all know the Devil wears Wranglers?? This is pretty funny stuff. Maybe
they should just change to have the girls wear long dresses with bonnets and the
boys white shirts and ties. By the way, how do those BYU cheerleadrs get away
with wearing those short skirts?? Last BYU football game I had to cover my kids
eyes from seeing those bare legs. My goodness what is the world coming to??
What's next for boys.. side burns??
John Dexter is a perfect example of why so many people dislike Mormons. I'm
still trying to decide what my new nickname will be for BYU-Idaho: it's a
toss-up between "Hildale High School" or "Colorado City
@ RoxyLynne 10:48 a.m.It is too bad you are letting some misinformed
prejudice get in the way of having your children attend the Universit of Utah.
The U provdes a great education in a laid back environment with tons of LDS kids
and at a great price. You would achieve 4 for 4 on your list. As I noted in my
earlier post, in my opinion, the U offers one of the best experiences for LDS
kids in the country. At the same time, you don't have arrogant, pharisaic
fellow students and administrators ever judging each other, etc. Everyone who
lives church standards does so by their own conviction, not some artificial
standard that forces it on you. There are religion classes, firesides, etc.
You are really missing out on a gem of an institution, and all due to misguided,
arrogant bias. Now you know the great secret: the U is an LDS student Mecca and
produces some wonderful fathers and mothers, church leaders, employers and
employees, etc. Church schools do not have a monopoly on good people or good
"If your pants are tight enough to see the shape of your leg, your pants
are too tight." This could also happen after finishing that
second piece of pumpkin pie after Thanksgiving dinner!! I can see it
now - BYU security on their little scooters chasing after those radical
jean-wearing students!! Is it any wonder why many in the world
mistake Mormons for Amish!! Geez, this is ridiculous. I remember playing
baseball at UVU and playing at Arizona State. You want to see an eye opener as
to what 99% of college kids wear - holy cow!! I thought I was at Lagoona Beach
instead of a college campus. It's fine and good to have reasonable dress
standards until things are taken to the extreme for the sole purpose of
enforcing the letter of the law.
The point isn't what the honor code says, it's whether individuals will honor
the rules they've signed on to.Dress and grooming standards exist in
most businesses, each branch of the military, police and fire departments, and
many universities. BYU-Idaho's honor code is preparation for careers after
graduation. Recruiters love it.Yes, Jesus would be upset with
someone for not honoring rules they have agreed to obey.
@fastgunrascon"The fact is the school is privately owned and operated
by the church."Doesn't mean it can't be criticized."I'm not perfect but, I learned that the Lords servants can see and
understand a lot farther down the road then any of us PERIOD"Period? So you're sure about that. Well, I'm going to go ahead and ask for the
evidence to back up your claim."If you don't like it go to
berkely were you pretty much wear whatever or you don't have to wear any clothes
either most don't!"Now that isn't self-righteous at all..."I can't believe you can call yourselves disciples of Christ! You
are the product of faithful pioneers who suffered a lot more then you did and
all you can do is complain because you have never had to sacrifice for your
testimony and now you do and guess what it doesn't look like your
passing!"I'm starting to think you use "I'm not
perfect" as an excuse to justify continuing with holier-than-thou ranting.
@Go Utes: You're also somewhat misinformed since BYU produces many more
undergraduates that go on to earn a PhD and continues to supply the graduate and
medical schools at the University of Utah with an endless supply of highly
qualified undergraduates. The undergraduate studentbody at BYU is the envy of
the majority of most AAU affiliated universities (AAU...an organization the
University of Utah highly aspires to be a part of). I also might add BYU has
more highly ranked Law, Business and Accounting graduate level programs, BUT
I'll admit Utah has the better hard science and art research graduate degrees
(including over 70 doctoral level programs of which BYU has only 25). However
this is no reason for Utah undergraduates to look down their noses at BYU
undergraduates academcially speaking or vice-versa. Inbreeding can best be
avoided by getting a degree from each school! LOL! :-)@Patriot:
You hit the nail right on the head! I'm sick and tired of such radical
The Savior was concerned when others elevated rules over doctrine. In Matthew
23:23 [Matt. 23:23] we read, Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier
matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and
not to leave the other undone.(By Elder Quentin L. Cook)"Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel"
[Matt. 23:24]I think there is great danger when people of all
Christian faiths (including LDS) become too caught up in the letter of the law
and then tend to forget the most important attribute of all - CHARITY! (Moroni
7). I remember a bishop who decided to embarrass some young ladies
in Sac Mt. because their dresses were too short. The girls didn't return. There
is the right way and the WRONG way to influence good behavior and I think all
the above Scriptures from the Savior point that out.
I went to Ricks and unfortunately this is not a unique situation. The school
needs to get this under control. I don't see any reason why BYU and BYU-Idaho's
standards should be different. The manager of the testing center, Dexter, needs
to be replaced. He has shown zero discretion here. Those signs are truly
outrageous. The media attention this is driving is bad for the church. It
paints the church as a bunch of wierdos and cemements the "cult" idea
in many minds. This is not about standing up for standards, this is just plain
What's next... skinny shirts, skinny socks, skinny hats?
Lots of people getting offended. I went to BYU for 41/2 years and never had a
single issue with the testing center or with feeling "judged" for
anything. I received a great education that has served me well. I loved the
people I met there and the campus is beautiful. The worst part was all of those
other smart people who made getting good grades so much harder.
re:RobertJesus would be more upset at those who "which strain
at a gnat, and swallow a camel." (Matt 23:24) and then forget the lessons
and importance of Charity in Moroni 7. Too many in the Church "love"
to enforce the letter of the law for pride's sake. I think the Lord isn't much
interested in the outer appearance - it's the inside that matters. Of course
modesty is important but extreme religion is also dangerous (Elder Bruce R
I hope they had John Dexter do an "I'm a Mormon" video for YouTube!
People can make fun of BYU-Idaho all they want, but I went there and absolutely
loved the experience. I appreciated Brother Myasaki clarifying the issue and
the testing center is most likely a bit out of line on this one and probably
ought to apologize. There are some students that might take the rules a little
too far and miss the point of the honor code, that happens with all
organizations that have rules. All I know is that when you keep the rules, there
is a feeling on that campus that is on no other campus. I grew up in Orem and I
feel there is even a distinct different between BYU and BYU-Idaho in the way
they feel. I love both schools, but I am glad that I went to Rexburg. Most students who attend BYU-Idaho enjoy the environment there. The students
who don't follow the honor code struggle because they find themselves always
fighting against it. They ought to simply go somewhere else. No one is forcing
them to attend the university. If they don't like it, then get a great
education at another school, there is nothing wrong with that. However, there
is something wrong with choosing to go there and then complaining about the
rules you agreed to follow.
Next thing you know they'll want all the women in Burqas... is this America or
It is presumptuous, at best, to think you have the right to judge another
person's "worthiness". But it is downright damaging and unethical to
use the logic "Brother" Dexter used:"If a student
prays and they think that the tight, 'form-fitting' clothing is accepted by the
Lord, they have not asked, or have not asked the right question, or they have
chosen an answer for their own gratification," testing center manager John
Dexter said."Many of you LDS recognize the blatant fallacy of
such an argument.But do you recognize that this is the exact same
form (and fallacy) of Moroni's Promise?You tell me to "ask God,
the eternal Father, if the Book of Mormon/LDS Church is [not] true... ask with
real intent, with faith in Christ, etc.But I have done so for over
20 years and have not gotten "the right" answer. And for this, I have
been castigated, judged, and condemned as insincere, too proud, too
intellectual, not intellectual enough, unworthy, selfish, and on and on, just as
this testing center manager has done to students at BYU-I.Don't you
see you are all kith and kin with your Brother Dexter?
@ SLC BYU Fan 12:09 p.m.I am misinformed? Please point to a single
incorrect statement that I made in my post. I said nothing about the number of
eventual PhD students and nothing about rankings, etc. My post was solely
addressing the issues raised by an earlier poster who wanted a good LDS
experience for her student children and blindly dismissed the U as a non-viable
option. They therefore ended up at BYU-I enduring, not enjoying, their
education. What I was saying is that the U provides all of the benefits any LDS
student could want. Any student at the U can go on to do graduate work (as I
chose to) if they choose. Your statistics have nothing to do with the point of
my post. If someone's highest goal is to graduate from a school that turns out
more kids to go on to earn a PhD or from a program that is ranked nominally
higher (example, the law schools' different rankings are virtually the same),
then the Y it is. All I am saying is that the U provides a great LDS experience
without a lot of the baggage that the article addresses.
"...by BYU-Idaho testing center employees who stretched their
interpretation of the university's dress and grooming standards too
far.""We have learned by sad experience that it is the
nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little
authority, as they suppose..."However, this comes with the
territory. When you sign up for BYU, you know what you're picking up. Not MY
idea of a good college experience. I went to USU and loved every minute of it.
But to each his own. If you choose to go to BYU, you get everything that comes
with it, the good and the absolutely, unbelievably absurd.
If students pants fit good when they start the semester and the freshman 15 come
along and then bam! you aren't allowed to take tests because you gained too much
weight that semester then they should pray to the Lord to know if those form
fitting pants are appropriate. Warning to all freshman!!! buy your pants
2-3 sizes too big in case they become form fitting by the end of the semester.
They want pants so loose they barely stay on but tight enough that you don't
sag. Option 2: obviously you aren't keeping the word of wisdom since you
aren't eating in moderation and so that combined with your snug pants will
disqualify you from worthily entering the hollowed grounds of the testing
center. The testing center manager owns the weight loss center down the street
and will recommend you use their facilities
What's amazing to me is that John Dexter was allowed by the administration to
keep the sign up for 3 days.
Skinny jeans may not be immoral, but they are ugly.
I am disappointed that the Deseret News, which is owned by the Church, would
pick up on this silly story from the BYU-Idaho campus newspaper, and thereby
fuel the flames of a ridiculous controversy.If BYU-Idaho has a rule
about no tight or overly form-fitting pants, that's their business.If your current objective in life is to rebel against things and persecute
others who believe in the honor code and try to practice it, then I'm sure
you'll be offended by whatever you choose. And there are those who are looking
for any chance they can get to take a shot at BYU and the Church.If
you don't like the program, don't attend school there. But don't
come into the school, accept it's opportunities, sign the honor code, and then
start fighting the rules. That puts a dent in one's character.We
just visitied BYU-Idaho and it is a place with great people and a wonderful
spirit. Go tour the campus and you'll find our for yourself. They are really
building something special. One beautiful campus.
'Yes, Jesus would be upset with someone for not honoring rules they have agreed
to obey.' - Robert | 11:46 a.m. Dec. 8, 2011 The rules that Jesus
himself... did not adhere too. *'Modeling as Savior
helps man find his faith' - By Trent Toone, Deseret News - 12/07/11
'For the past few days Miner, with trimmed beard and chocolate-brown,
shoulder-length hair, had dressed as Jesus and interacted with African orphans
as part of a photo and video shoot.' Love this man's work. He, and
the person he represents are trying to help those in need. But it
DOES point out, the 'chocolate-brown, shoulder-length hair...'
@A1994"When you sign up for BYU, you know what you're picking
up."The problem in this case is that nobody knew they were
picking up this. When those students signed the honor code, it contained
certain things...then one day they show up at the testing center and the rules
have changed. Sure, rules change all the time, but where was their chance to
I agree with GoUtes: No one is being forced to be good. You are able to quickly
discern who really wants to live the church standards. Church schools do not
have a monopoly on good people or good educations.I went to both
Ricks and BYU-Provo, and although both share a similar Honor Code, the
experience on both campuses was different, maybe due to the size and number of
students attending.I feel that the BYU students should be given the
respect and agency to interpret for themselves how they will display their
honor. Unfortunately, everyone desires attention and usually this is shown
through dress and appearance spurred by media and current trends, as students
seek to show their own identity. Afterall, finding an eternal companion is a
huge subliminal motive in BYU campus life.However, everyone has to
do their part in assimilating into the honor code environment, otherwise
individuality is too disruptive to others. The problem is, how to rein in those
who are over the line? There has to be a more discreet way to counsel with love
@ Pagan: You're comparing apples and oranges. The Savior is asking BYU students
to dress modestly by today's standards, not the standards of His time.
BYU silliness still lives on. I got kicked out of BYU Provo's testing center
because I was wearing my Speary Top-Siders with no socks. Evidently my ankles
were pretty provocative. I loved my time at BYU, learned lots, made life long
friends, but some of the stuff they got all wound up about just cracked me up.
Actually the issue here was tight, form-fitting jeans, not the
"skinny" jeans that are popular. Form-fitting clothes have been on
all church school honor codes since invented.The church schools have
very slight differences in honor codes because the Board of Trustees approved
them that way. BYU-Hawaii of necessity accommodates climate and culture.
If you don't agree with the rules,---go somewhere else! If you agree, --stay!
What's so hard about that? The school board of trustees is the First Presidency
of the Church, therefore I take the rules as inspired. Others may not take it
that way and that's fine. There's no mandate for your attendance. Many other
colleges to choose from. It's just that simple.
@My Humble Opinion: I have a problem with the idea of a "loving"
father figure deity that would not accept me because of the clothes I am
wearing.When I read scripture I see things about treating others
with kindness, love and respect. I see things about helping the less fortunate.
How to be a generally good person.Yet when I look at religious
people I see hate, judgment and condemnation.I think the overall
message is being lost somewhere between what is written in that book and what is
done in our daily lives.It's a glaring problem that religious
institutions all over should probably be a little more concerned with
addressing... and you wonder why millenials are abandoning religion in record
I think I'll be in deep doo-doo if I get to the Pearly Gates and see a BYU
standards enforcer with his arms folded, looking me up and down. Yikes!
Each BYU school is different. They have their own versions of the honor code and
what is acceptable. Having attended both BYU-I and BYU-Provo I can tell you that
what is acceptable in Provo would never fly in Idaho. I always tried to avoid
the testing center. The one in Provo isn't nearly as strict. This whole
situation is just ridiculous. I have never been turned away when I show up to
take a test. But if they ever do I will go nuclear on that poor student. I'm
already stressed as it is about the testing environment and many times I plan my
whole day around that test and many times that is the last possible time I can
take that particular exam. To send someone home at closing is simply not fair.
Two groups who do not understand that people are sexual biological beings:
economists and the administrators of BYU - Idaho.
@ DeltaFoxtrot: I'm not sure why you are directing that message to me. I never
said a "loving" father would not accept you. What I said is that the
Savior is asking students to dress modestly. Also, as I said in a previous post
I am not judging anyone. I simply think people need to respect BYU's right to
enforce their own rules which their students have agreed to. I don't know how
you can argue against that. I don't like some of the rules at BYU either. I went
to the University of Utah because that suited me better. Had I gone to BYU I
would have conformed to their rules.
(eye roll)...As a student at BYU-I, I abide by the honor code because it's what
I agreed to. I wish I could wear flip-flops in the summer, but I don't make a
fuss out of it because I agreed to follow it. I think BYU-I is a wonderful
institution. However, there are definitely some over-zealous, self-righteous
(mostly student) employees at the Testing Center. I've seen young men with a
5:00 shadow at 5:00 pm be sent home to shave while young women in the next row
have their cleavage hanging out. Definitely a double standard on the part of the
employees. My only thing to say about the skinny jean debacle is--(snort) it
doesn't surprise me a bit. I hope BYU-I uses this situation as an excuse to give
the Testing Center employees a good talking to about letter of the law, spirit
of the law, and double standards.
Some interesting thoughts here. The Temples are privately owned by the church. I
have to be interviewed by my Bishop and Stake President and then sign an
"honor" code in the form of a temple recommend to enter the temple. I
even make the most important covenants and do the most sacred and important work
I can do on earth in these temples. And through all of this I can have long hair
and facial hair, but show up to a BYU-I testing center with a five o'clock
shadow and you are turned down? Hmmm, interesting how a college campus is
perceied to be so important and how judgemental and self righteous people are.
'What I said is that the Savior is asking students to dress modestly. Also, as I
said in a previous post I am not judging anyone. I simply think people need to
respect BYU's right to enforce their own rules which their students have agreed
to.' - My Humble Opinion | 3:45 p.m. Dec. 8, 2011 Really? When did the Savior say this? I thought it was the
administration. Also, criticism is not a sign of disrespect. It is the evidence OF respect. Because the code, that
changes depending on who you talk too, is still being allowed. It
has not, factually been DENIED. Just criticized.
Nothing screams of self-righteousness more than the vigilante actions of this
renegade testing center employee. And, the sign that was put up after the
incident was way over the top. These are the type of words and actions that
make people want to turn away from the LDS Church. And over what?.... Was this
young lady committing serious sin? Was she committing a crime? Was she even
failing to live up to the honor code? No, she was dressed in a manner that even
her bishop didn't feel was necessary to comment on and then confronted by a
BYU-I employee who feels the need to show college kids that he is more powerful
and more righteous than they are.This is truly an embarrassment to
BYU-I, the LDS Church, and Mormons everywhere. I am not looking forward to
explaining this to my non-Mormon friends in Texas if any of them get wind of
this story.That young lady needs an apology and that testing center
employee needs to be formally and publicly reprimanded.
The greater the power, the more likely it is that the powerless will be reminded
of the fact. In today's society, there aren't too many things more powerful than
the ability to grant, or WITHHOLD, a college degree. If post-teenagers are
functioning (literally) as gatekeepers, and can disrupt this whole process,
that's pretty scary. Let's hope they're having a good day.
Based on personal experiences I have had with brethren in the LDS building
department I have asked myself, and one of them, how they are able to maintain a
temple recommend. I don't judge the LDS Church but rather specific individuals
for less than honest dealings with their fellow men.I view this
questionable dress code issue similarly. Individuals that go overboard in law
enforcement of the dress code don't represent the leadership of either the
school or the LDS Church.
Free-Agency, and how to enforce it!Is walking on the grass forbidden
Yes! A silly rule. Males don't notice or think anything of girls with tight
blue jeans. After all, tight clothing is so comfortable. Those old people don't
understand. Crazy! Let's boycott BYU-I and go somewhere else where common
sense is abundant. Since God loves us, he'll be happy and except everything we
Oh BYU-I. My wife and I have spent the better part of our parenting lives
telling our kids about the unique "Spirit of Ricks" and the wonderful
opportunities that they can have. For the last 18 months we've prayed,
discussed, and counciled our oldest that as she prepares to graduate that making
the decision to attend the "North Campus" was the right choice.
Unfortunately, I think with this type of silliness, you've lost a bright,
talented, outgoing, beautiful, skinny jean wearing kind of girl to a state
school, where now, my wife and I will be praying just as hard, or harder, that
our daughter will avoid the strong influence that come with co-ed freshman
dorms, parties of the lowest caliber, and a whole different kind of fun.Just makes me angry that with the direction that BYU-I has been going in
over the last few years would/could/is lost because of this silliness. The best
and brightest are smarter that this, and will choose to go elsewhere if this is
the "best" that the "best" can give. Skinny jeans. Silly.
CougarWannaBe,I have three kids who graduated from BYU-I, as well as
I did (Ricks College). It was a fantastic experience. The honer code was never
a problem, and I'd rather have a school a little overboard than not. If it
bothers you, don't send them.Maybe your kids will be better off at
ASU or AU.
Oh dear so many people have missed the mark. The issue is not with BYU-I as an
institution just that a single foolish person made an arbitrary and capricious
snap judgement on someone wearing skinny jeans. There is no problem with the
University in and of itself on this issue.However other people BYU-I
can be fairly restrictive and that could be a large large large issue! Am I
saying allow raucous parties? No what I am saying is let's look at the honor
code and see what is best that allows for maximum freedom while supporting the
church standards. We cannot become a stratified people!
I have known too many people wanting to attend this college, but couldn't get in
because of the numbers. If someone has a problem with the dress code, just
don't go and let someone else come. Why go somewhere and be unhappy? Doesn't
make sense. Take your shorts, flip-flops, and tight clothing somewhere else
where it's appreciated.
"Honor code or not - skinny jeans really don't look very good. I'll be glad
when fashion moves onto other styles."Yeah, like mini-skirts (again)
"Inbreeding can best be avoided by getting a degree from each school! LOL!
:-)"- cute."No, she was dressed in a manner that
even her bishop didn't feel was necessary to comment on" - the idea
probably occurred to him, he just didn't go with it."Two groups
who do not understand that people are sexual biological beings: economists and
the administrators of BYU - Idaho."- which means that Marxists don't
have to follow rules and how does that help anything or anyone?
Skinny jeans are so ugly! I think BYU was right in enforcing this and banning
them, now attractive/normal jeans will spike marriage rates again.I
hope all BYU's enforce this as dress code, I don't care for them and many of my
friends don't either.
The test center employees are allowed to judge students w/r to the honor code?
Who else has the power to judge clothing?
Go BYU - Spud!
by byu-i code with facial hair alone Brigham Young wouldn't be allowed to test
While I appreciate modest clothing and high standards, I think it is in the best
interest of the students to let them learn a little on their own. College is
supposed to be a maturing, learning, and growing experience. When things are
this strict there is no room for strengthening a testimony, or learning for ones
self. If you slip up and where flip flops you are punished, wow?! Teenagers will
learn nothing of the world if they are shipped from the watchful eye of their
parents to the watchful eye of BYU-I with someone breathing down their neck all
of the time. A kids gotta grow up and make his/her own decision sometime and the
longer you prevent them from doing so you are just crippling them for the future
when mommy and daddy and even their school won't be there to tell them what to
This is a formal public representation of essential values? How embarrassing
that must be. ...when I was a child .... "Excluding" doesn't seem a
If you desire or need a militaristic environment with lots of rules and where
many decisions about what to wear, etc. are made for you, then I suggest you
attend a school like the Citadel or a CES school. If you dont enjoy that type of
environment or feel you may learn more elsewhere, then go elsewhere. The
members of my family have attended 7 universities (BYU and six others). As to
the quality of education received, I think the higher-ranked (i.e., first-tier)
institutions provide a better education. As to overall college experience, BYU
is near the bottom of the list (according to my family members). No reason
to fret though, you can have your cake and eat it too. Schools like UC
Berkeley, for example, will provide an exceptional educational experience in
every aspect and there is an excellent thriving institute program less than a
block off-campus. In fact, there are thriving institute programs full of
exceptional Mormon students at most top-rated universities.CES school
provide a relatively good, cheap education, but you can get a great education
and surround yourself with Mormon kids (outside of class) elsewhere.
"Go pray about it - and if you don't get the same response as I did, then
you didn't pray about it!"That is the worst, most insincere
form of hypocrisy. I'm very concerned about the testing center director.
One of my all time favorite testing center stories occurred back in the early
eighties, while I was at BYU. At the time, jeans were prohibited for girls. One
girl showed up in jeans at the testing center and was refused. She promptly went
into the bathroom and removed her jean, taking the test without pants, but with
a long coat to cover her. She reported this in the Daily Universe.I
find the "Spirit of Ricks College" to be contrary to the expressed
desire to teach people correct principles and to let them govern themselves. I
support standards. I reject arbitrary interpretation of standards. Banning
capri length shorts in Rexburg and accepting them at the campuses of the
Universities with the same written standards is an example of the arbitrary
selection of standards. Being from Idaho, I understand how Idahoans feel
superior in their spiritual commitment. Think about it a little more, brethren
JohninSLC great post, how to enforce free agency? lol!!!When I was
at Ricks, we did have a campaign complete with lawn signs and buttons to wear
"I keep off the grass and I'm glad I do!"I loved it for
the double-meaning.I would add, isn't the honor code, like 'the
honor system'? You put out a box of apples, post a sign 25-cents each, and
expect folks to deal honestly with you...
ps - The 'keep off the grass' campaign was due to students cutting corners off
the sidewalks and leaving well-worn paths during fall and spring, then
especially during those sub-zero mornings on the Rexburg hill. Those little
snow trails were more fun than salted concrete.Imagine that,
students wanting to take the straightest path possible to get to class in the 10
John Dexter sounds like the sort of guy who drives exactly the speed limit in
the fast lane in order to enforce the letter of the law. Stick to your job,
brother, and let others abide by Satan's plan, which was to force others to do
On a side note, John Dexter is authoring a book to be published next year. The
title: "Free Agency and How to Enforce It".
I had a great experience at BYU-Provo, as did five of my siblings. One of my
sisters attended both BYU-I (then Ricks) and BYU-Provo, and she loved both.
People are not perfect. Some might overstep their bounds (whether that means the
testing center employee or the student is for you to decide), but those
experiences for me paled in scope and frequency to the amazing opportunity of
learning at an institution that harmonizes faith and academics. When something
controversial arises, you have a choice. You can be offended and spread venom
(as the employee or the student) or you can open your heart to God and see if HE
has something to teach you.
This LDS obsession with clothes, hair etc is now reflected in what color of
shirt many/most men wear to church. A white shirt is deemed the preferred
uniform. Most of my life in the Church facial hair or longer hair was
acceptable. Now it is not permitted for men in leadership positions or for
those administering the sacrament. Seriously, this is getting
ridiculous, a result of simpletons looking for a superficial measure of
Just buy your own jeans, and quit wearing your girlfriends. They dont fit you!
Does this skinny jeans ban fall under the notion in the other article today,
"Define us by who we are and by our central beliefs rather than who we are
not or by obscure or irrelevant beliefs," Michael R. Otterson, managing
director of public affairs for the LDS Church, said" ..
Since when does the Strength of Youth say capris are immodest? This ridiculous
attitude is making them the laughing stock of the world. They have a very self
righteous attitude there, like they're morally superior to everyone else. Sad
fact is they have a culture not unlike the polygamous cults. They also follow a
"higher" standard than the rest of the church. They isolate them and
demand strict obedience to ridiculous rules. Something needs to be done,
seriously. If it's okay to wear at BYU, Temple Square etc. it's okay to wear in
No skinny jeans? But wearing a skirt to your knees, showing off your legs would
be okay?The thing that has always bothered me since my days at BYU,
is the way that the Honor Code has changed. (Note: I never had an honor code
violation that kept me out of the testing ctr.) The grooming portion of the
honor was initiated by a student council in the 60s when beards were a symbol of
the rebellious "flower child" era. They wanted to stand apart from
this and said they wanted the grooming standard. Now my problem, what was
brought on by students is no longer under control of the students. Beards no
longer are symbols of rebellion yet to get that standard changed is impossible.
Why not return control of these items to the students? (Contrary to what many
think college age adults are capable of being reasonable.)
To go to any of BYU's colleges you need to sign to agree to the honor code. If
you can't abide by it then choose another school. I went to BYU and visited the
testing center many times and was never turned away so it can be done. I did
have a friend get turned away for their 5 o'clock shadow though. Perhaps they
should hand out disposable razors.
When I went to Ricks in the late 70's, girls were just allowed to wear denim
pants. I recall those Ditto jeans that made women's curves look good. When I
worked in the testing Center in 1980/81 the only people we even looked at were
the males that had hair way too long. One guy went in the bathroom, wet his
down, combed it back and took his test. No problem. The problem with these
testing center folks are that they are to anal retentive and should be fired.
What's the difference between tight pants and the gym outfits the girls wear?
None. They need an attitude adjustment. This type of myopic rule
interpretation is made by those following Satan's plan (remember D&C 121).
Not Jesus' plan.
There's a double standard here. BYU cheerleaders can wear super short mini
skirts during a football game in front of thousands of people, and BYU has no
problem with it. I don't want to hear the excuse, it's for sports only. If
they're going to set a standard, set it for the entire school, including
cheerleaders. This skinny pant ban idea is ridiculous.
It's not about standards but made up standards. Are they adults or
kids? A person isn't turned away from business meeting if their skirt is above
the knee. This is not the world of work. Sounds more like a high school. Have those turned away show up at a dean to back up or be critical of
the staff sending the student away.
"The 'keep off the grass' campaign was due to students cutting corners off
the sidewalks and leaving well-worn paths during fall and spring, then
especially during those sub-zero mornings on the Rexburg hill. Those little snow
trails were more fun than salted concrete.Imagine that, students
wanting to take the straightest path possible to get to class in the 10 minutes
alloted..."University planners should place sidewalks where
they see people making them in the grass. Why are flip flops
immodest? What about sandals that look flip floppy? What about a shoe with wedge
bottom and a flip floppy top? A person could go crazy looking at their closet
trying to figure it out.
I know this will cause some negative reactions, but I want to say I think skinny
jeans are a bad idea. People should avoid wearing clothes that fit too tightly.
I think too often church members figure if there is clothing there they are
modest, when in fact some clothing is so tight that it actually makes things
worse by leaving nothing to the imagination.
BYU-Idaho has every right to enforce rules that require daily shaving. Refusing
people tests on this ground is reasonable.On the other hand it is
unwise for employees of the university to seek to enforce policies ahead of the
Ms.W, That is BYU, not BYU-Idaho. You need to pay closer attention, this
rule is at BYU-Idaho. On the other hand, neither school makes people wear
clothing to the knees and covering the arms while swimming. Rules are clearly