I really do not think LDS people are more self reliant than anybody else.
Shaun-The article is not about the general LDS population, but a program
in trying to help make people self reliant. Thanks for your opinion on LDS
It might have helped if you had mentioned that Shannon Toronto, CEO of the
Philanthropy Roundtable, is LDS and a BYU graduate. The article as it stands
makes it seem like this impartial group from Washington with no connection to
the LDS church was so impressed by the church's welfare program that they
traveled all the way to Salt Lake to see it in action.The church
does a great deal of commendable charitable and humanitarian work. It just seems
unnecessary to use praise from a church member to imply outside approval.
@ Shaun, I would have to agree with you and my agreement is not intended to LDS
bash. I think in some ways that LDS have become more and more reliant upon the
church. Look around you and see how many are receiving help from the church,
particularly along the Wasaatch front. A few years ago I attended a meeting
telling us that unlike any other area in the US, 100% of the fast offerings
along the Wasaatch front stay right here because of the needs. I wonder what
members would do if the church help wasn't available. I would guess that many
would learn to become more self-reliant. The church has been saying for decades
now to put aside funds for emergencies (6 months worth of expenses), to store
food and other essentials for emergencies, etc. Yet the moment someone loses
their job they begin looking to the church and people within the church for
help. I really don't think that the lessons on self-reliance are being absorbed
by many. It sounds good on paper, but in practice I don't think it is working.
Perhaps for the extreme poor, but not the middle class.
It is too bad that the government doesn't model their welfare system after the
Why does the article give the impression of a neutral observer making comments?
Shannon Toronto attended Grad School at BYU. Not exactly as portrayed in the
story, is it?
Doctrine and Covenants 104:16 16 But it must needs be done in
mine own way; and behold this is the way that I, the Lord, have decreed to
provide for my saints, that the poor shall be exalted, in that the rich are made
low. I hope this is not lost in all of the discussions. I believe it
will be too radical to believe that the poor could be viewed as equals.
Any of you who think reporting is or should be unbiased are naive. Why do you
think so many big corporations donate to NPR? I'd just get sick an turn off a
program that started or ended with a list of possible conflicts of interest. We
all know what they are, and belly-aching about it will just make the final media
product more tedious both here at DN and at NPR.I, for one, like the
promotion of self-reliance by anyone who will do it. Too many people think that
government should or will help them when things go south. It ain't going to
happen, and they should all realize that now.
It is without reason to criticize the LDS Model according to the devotion of the
LDS membership to that model. If this were to be accepted, then the actions of
all men would subsequently negate their own beliefs. A principle is validated by
devotion to it. Only relativism may be appropriately criticized by that
standard.Joseph Smith faced this same self-serving principle of
judgement that has continued to be falsely applied against this work since it's
restoration, and in the very accounts so long ago in the bible.It is
illogical to criticize the form of our translations or scripture, the
righteousness of our membership, or anything less than the doctrinal principles
themselves. Why? Because the nature of LDS theological and epidemiological
claims premise that we are an imperfect people working toward a perfect
cause.One my ask, what about 'Ye shall know them by their works'?.
That does not mean that my devotion validates principles. Just as the
consequence of a principle reveal its ultimate function- what work we produce in
our lives reveals which principles we adhere to.This logical
evidence only proves what we already knew. We're not a perfect people. But our
I don't expect news outlets to be unbiased, but this story amounts to
"Mormon thinks Mormon welfare program is awesome." Surely, we should
expect better from the Deseret News.
I didn't realize the church had any epidemiological claims. But, that said, who
is criticizing the LDS model?
@Ms Molli: Should we discount all of your posts because of the anger and hatred
towards all things LDS? According to your logic, we should just dismiss you
completely.I don't know what meeting you were in but your
information is completely false regarding fast offerings along the Wasatch
front. Also, I'm sure there are families that go to the church for
assistance when the bread winner loses their job. But I know it's not the rule
and it's definitely not in that very "moment".I don't
understand why so many of you hate on all things LDS. It's the usual diatribes
of envy, coveting and anger.According to many of you, the LDS church
does absolutely nothing right, correct, applaudable or something to emulate.
It's sad that you have so much disdain built up inside your soul and you choose
the Dnews threads to release it.@FDRfan: it's not radical except to
people like you. You want to force people to give while the Lord's way is for us
to choose to give freely of our abundance. You and LDS Lib have a true distorted
view of the Lord's gospel.
Given the necessity of having one or two jobs to survive in today's economy, I
think its nearly impossible to be self reliant. We do rely on our family, our
network of friends, the church and the government. When I was a ward employment
specialist I quickly learned that if I couldn't find a new job within 60 days
after a ward member became unemployed, bankruptcy become inevitable. Church
welfare doesn't cut it. I do appreciate the Church's efforts on helping folks
Ok Runtu64, what do you think of this program. Is it a good program or not.Ms Molli yes your intent is to LDS bash because that is what you go on to do.
Dektol and Runtu64The fact that a board member had a previous
familiarity stemming from an indirect tie has no relevance on the information
included in the article. I would presume others in the organization have
indirect ties to Lemonade Day and Florida's Positive Coaching Alliance. Those
connections were not disclosed either. I can't imagine reading an article where
such disclaimers were required. Consider, for example, the following inclusion:
"...Florida's Positive Coaching Alliance (please note that board member Sam
Branson's nephew participated in the program, Pat Johnson lived three years in
Miami and Jean Lombard vacationed at Sea World last spring)...." Requiring
Toronto's college background is equally as ridiculous. The only explanation I
have for your concern is that you are in some way attempting to minimize the
contributions of the LDS welfare system. The other information you are
requesting is irrelevant to the conversation.
One of the things those dirty, unwashed, stinky, loud, disorganized, communist,
socialist Occupiers have on their wish list is/are jobs. Charity is great when
youre starving, but having a job makes you feel better and more secure. However
jobs provided by charity are seldom permanent. And as we are often told,
temporary jobs dont really help. If those millionaire
philanthropists would simply live up to their propaganda and create permanent
jobs, it would be much nicer.
@Charles | 9:15 a.m. Dec. 2, 2011 The Greater Outdoors, UT @Ms
Molli: Should we discount all of your posts because of the anger and hatred
towards all things LDS? According to your logic, we should just dismiss you
completely.I don't know what meeting you were in but your information is
completely false regarding fast offerings along the Wasatch front. @Charles, the meeting was at an LDS singles conference here in Utah sponsored
by the LDS church. That talk was given by a GA. In addition, in that same talk
we were told that Utah had the highest rate of personal bankruptcy in the
jsf: I've already said that I think the LDS welfare program is commendable. I'm
LDS, and I have done a lot of service in the welfare program, including picking
and sorting fruit, working at a dairy farm, canning peanut butter, and
volunteering at the Bishop's Storehouse. And once, when I was laid off, I
received food and other supplies from the Bishop's Storehouse. My wife served as
a welfare missionary for the church in South America. I have nothing but
admiration for the church's welfare program, and I agree with the emphasis on
self-reliance.My issue here is with the article, which wrongly
implies praise from an unaffiliated group. The CEO of the organization is a
Latter-day Saint, and she is the only member of the group that is quoted. You
don't think that should be mentioned?
Redshirt1701 Said it well.Too bad the welfare-state of the
government does not encourage self-reliance, but encourages a further dependence
on the state. Such attitudes that are developed lead people to believe that
welfare is a "right", not a privilege.I'm glad that the
Church does a good job in encouraging others to be self-reliant, while
emphasizing the principle of mercy to those who genuinely need help. Our government, with current welfare estimates, has a 50 trillion dollar
liability over the next 75 years. It would take our GDP doubling every year for
75 years to keep up to pay that liability.Which means, government
welfare may not exist for much longer, and our government may not either.
Lead...and the world will follow (hopefully)
Correction: I meant, 'A principle is NOT validated by devotion to it.' How
ironically appropriate that I make a mistake on a comment that claims that
criticizing mistakes is illogical. lol-------Runtu64,A "Mormons think a Mormon program is great" article makes a
lot of sense to me. Compare to older concepts of virtue- any praise of anything
good is welcome, regardless of the source.I absolutely recognize
that you stated you have no 'unbiased expectation'. I just find this point
interesting and wanted to expand on it.Regarding the appearance of
non-LDS point. While I entirely understand that and agree that the article (or
at least the title) could have been better phrased to clarify this... at the
same time, Interviewing an LDS person doesn't negate that the group wasn't LDS
and their experiences. So I don't think this is bad of the Deseret News, but I
would agree that the reporting could have improved in this way.Regarding your question, I meant that comments regarding the LDS People are
irrelevant to the LDS model itself. The first comment on here, despite my
thinking it's inaccurate, doesn't offer anything relevant to the article. Thus
Run&Moli, I always smile when someone says "I'm not bashing the LDS
church, but......Moly, I would suggest you reserve your squinted
judgements of a large group of people, to those who actually know the details of
each individual situation.I would also ask if you are intimately
aware of the abuse of the government welfare services around the country. And
have you been on here expressing your outrage over the use of taxpayers money in
that system.And does it bother you if a Catholic, Jew or Baptist works in
the government welfare system that is widely known for being ineffecient?Does it concern you as much as people living on the Wasatch front, who
have humbled themselves enough to meet with their bishops and work out a way to
receive assistance while doing other things like working at the bishop's
storehouse or cleaning chapels to try to compensate for the assistance
received?My experience with bashers is perfectly reflected in your
assessment of the LDS church, followed by your blind, and might I add, your un
Christlike attack on those who have needed help and been blessed by the very
organization that you "don't intend to bash".
Molli: blanket judgements only hide details. The truth is that everyone has an
individual life with an individual struggle. While many people are in their
situation because of their own actions, that doesn't say anything bad about
anyone. People make mistakes, but if someone asks the church for help that
doesn't give any of us a place to judge. What we should do is offer our hands
out to help on the condition that they help themselves and others as well. That
is the LDS "model" spoken of here. And yes, it most certainly is
working. Because the model requires people to in fact... work.Whether a General Authority says that rates are high in one area or not says
nothing about whether we should be taken back by that statistic, or doubt
whether the system is working. In the LDS Church we work together to help each
other. Just because some people managed poorly and there is a recent rise in any
area means nothing less than our needing to put a sock in it and start helping
each other. No one is taking from the Church storehouse without the Lord's
permission and their agreement to equally work.
I agree with Ms Molli. I see Church leaders handing out support and there is
little evidence that they ask the recipients to do anything to help out in
return. Granted, Bishops don't broadcast everything they might ask the
recipient to do which they should not. But I do see a gross lack of
understanding the principle of self reliance in the Church in general. The
emphasis seems to be on giving a helping hand and service to others but
practically no emphasis on personal responsibility or self reliance as those
quoted in this article attempt to portray. I am an active member and I applaud
the welfare program of the Church but I believe we could do a MUCH BETTER job of
teaching real self reliance and not just "serving" the needy without
helping them to grow and become contributors and not just receivers themselves.
@Freedom-in-Dange, I totally agree with you that people should work together and
help each other. The point I made is that the model is just a model -- it isn't
apparently working in real life for a pretty big population. To have Utah with
the highest rate of personal bankruptcies (and by the way he said this statistic
has been pretty even for well over a decade -- including before this big
economic turndown) and to have all of the fast offerings stay along the Wasaatch
front is pretty clear evidence that the LDS population in Utah are not learning
to become self-reliant! This talk was about personal finances, by the way. My
point is that sometimes when you know with certainty that you have someone to
lean on it can interfere with your ability to become self-reliant. Sometimes
help may be too easy to come by.
Oh, @Charles - cheap shot to Ms Molli. Not exactly how one would expect a
Christian to behave. Please consider she is only sharing a point of view and
not "hatred" as you attempt to portray it. Lets be a little more open
minded. Perhaps we will be less prone to our "our own form of hatred"
just because someone has a little different point of view than we do my friend.
As a Latter Day Saint, I think Ms. Mollie makes several relevant points.
While I think it's working as much as it CAN work... and by that I mean that
it's working as much as any model could... because it's reliant on the people
putting into it. Without people putting in, there would be nothing. So I think
it's working as much as it can. Which could be a bad sign really... maybe our
economic situation is so bad that it just has to snap at this point?But yes, I do agree 100% that there is a great risk in knowing you have
someone to lean on which is why the 'work required' idea is so important.
Instead of leaning. It should be a hypersensitive mutually carried load. You
help someone freely. But only when their pulling their share and the very
instant they stop pulling enough to grow themselves out of the situation, you
stop pulling also.
@ Ms MolliI see you do not know how the finances of the church work. All
tithing goes to church head quarters. Were as Fast offerings stay in the local
wards and stakes any extra at the end of the year goes to Church head quarters.
Its not about because to many people are abusing the system. It is about helping
those who need it it and hopefully keeping them from going to the government for
help. Our welfare system is way better then what the government can do for
people. And one of the things we as members need to do is help the those in need
every way we can.
@ Freedom-in-Danger, I appreciate your exchange of opinions. And you are
probably right -- perhaps the model could be a perfect model if the people
could be a perfect people.
@ Ultra Bob,I have a problem with those who say they are looking for work
and are occupiers.At work we needed some entry level workers pay was 20
and hour setting chokers in logging. five days a week rain or shine my boss and
I went to Occupy Olympia to offer any one a job. they all turned it down because
let me quote " that work is beneath me" When One does not have a job
any job is better then non. yeah it might not be in the field of study you did
but a pay check at the end of the week sure is good. We ended up hiring three
people who speak Spanish and english and have their green cards. Best darn
@Meckofahess: My comments to Ms Molli are based on her many hating posts of
things LDS. I'm actually stunned that she went to a meeting in an LDS building
where a GA was speaking. Most people who hate things LDS as she does don't go to
the belly of the beast.And her facts are incorrect. Utah doesn't
lead the nation in personal bankruptices for the past decade or so. The
statistic is easy to find if you want facts. Also, you claim "I
believe we could do a MUCH BETTER job of teaching real self reliance and not
just "serving" the needy without helping them to grow and become
contributors and not just receivers themselves."Maybe you could
provide the details of your great plan? Lay it out for us to see.You
also seem to be the busybody type. Do you monitor the workings of your bishop
and any assignment he gives to those who you "think" are receiving
assistance? Utah Mormons are a strange bunch and you are the poster child!The welfare method of the church is by far and away the best there is.
Self, family, church is how assistance should be pursued.
Not mentioning the provenance of the person making the statement quoted is
deceptive in this instance.Whether one likes or dislikes LDS,inc...
honesty in reporting in a newspaper is expected. The way this is written gives a
much different story than when one knows is is 'one of their own' making the
statement.Reality is that LDS welfare has never worked. That is why
leaders tell members to look to the government first these days... they finally
admitted to themselves what many of us have known to be true for a long time.
Allowing or making it mandatory for people to work for what they get - even if
in a small way, helps people to maintain dignity and to not feel entitled.
Sure, some will still feel entitled or will abuse the system, but many will not.
As with anything regarding the LDS church, many will criticize. I have seen
the program work and truly help people with a hand up. I have also seen the
abuse of the governments welfare program. I think the LDS church has the right
idea and I would love to see the government adopt similar policies.
Is this how Mitt wants to do it?
Just to clarify a few facts that are being thrown around wildely with no true
fact to back them up.Utah does not and has not lead the nation in
bankrupcies.2007 14 states higher level based on population
percentage 22 states statistically similar2008 9 state higher
level 22 states similiar2009 7 states higher 9
states similiar2010 13 similiar statistically2011 is not
available yet but again Nevada leads the way(Statistics: National Credit
Card Data on Bankruptcy:All Types)However, the trend for Utah is
negative.On LDS Welfare and and running to get it as pointed out by
Ms. Moli:Please note in a Graduate level study I was involved in at
a Non-Utah(Not LDS Affliated Graduate School) the rate at which LDS members
requested assistance for food was 4 months beyond the date of job loss as
compared to the general public. 500 LDS and 500 non LDS families were
surveyed.Please also consider: Each State has different perameters
that affect unemployment and time factors that affect timing in asking for
assistance. I.E. overall state economic health prior to a downturn, wealth of
the state, job sectors, etc...
@Dektol: what facts do you have to back up your statement that "LDS welfare
has never worked?"Can you share the statement where
"leaders tell members to look to the government first these
days...?"It's not in any manual I've ever read and I've pretty
much read them all.I love this quote:"Touring the
Church's Ogden Utah Welfare Cannery, President Gordon B. Hinckley explained
Church welfare to him. With his trademark smile President Reagan answered he
already knew about the welfare program from what he'd observed in California,
and then lamented admiringly, 'Oh that our federal welfare worked so
perfectly.'"The anti-LDS on this site are never pleased with
anything concerning LDS. It's kind of sad to see people waste so much of their
lives fighting something that is only out to help the entire population of the
It is very amusing when people bring up Utah' BK rate. It's usually people who
have disdain for the LDS Church thinking the reason behind BK's are tithing
donations. What they fail to mention is, and what they seem to tout is Utah's
Mormon population is dwindling to around 50%. So, if that is the fact, then at
least half of Utah's population's BK rate is Non Mormons. I have never filed
for BK but I assume there wouldn't be a check box for Mormon or Non Mormom
Is it really self-reliant if say... you're getting church welfare instead of
gov't welfare? Isn't that still reliant... just on a different entity? Not that
there's anything wrong with that.@charles"You want to
force people to give while the Lord's way is for us to choose to give freely of
our abundance"How free is it? Or let me put it this way... if
tithing wasn't a pre-req to getting in the temple and 10% was merely a
suggestion... how many people would be giving less than 10% in tithing when they
give 10% now? @The_Kaiser"Our government, with current
welfare estimates, has a 50 trillion dollar liability over the next 75 years. It
would take our GDP doubling every year for 75 years to keep up to pay that
liability."I'm pretty sure US GDP is about 13 trillion a year.
Double that for next year and you get 26 trillion. Five more doubling years
later you get 832 trillion which is notably way more than enough to pay 50
trillion. In other words... there's something faulty with your math.
For those who insist Utah has the highest bankrupcy rate, you're misinformed.
It is true that a few years ago, Utah had a two year period of leading the
country in bankrupcies as a percentage of population, but since then, West
Virginia, Alabama, California, Georgia and Arizona have all take turns leading
the country in bankrupcy rates.
why do we criticize the poor so much and help them so little?
Molly, there's an old saying: When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.Your justification of bashing LDS people who turned to the church in
their time of need is just cold and cruel. And there's just no way conceal your
true attitude to the church's program or the people they help.And then to
generalize that the bankruptcies in Utah according to your suggesting, must all
be LDS.Not to mention that your facts are way off when it comes to
bankruptcy.But typically, bashers don't worry too much about providing
facts when it comes to generalizing. It just doesn't fit their
"model"And then you dig yet a little deeper, you decide that the
LDS church's welfare model must not be working because people are using it
because they know of it's availablity.I would suggest you are having a
creative recall of the details of the single's conference.Hopefully there
weren't any single mothers at this singles conference, who had ever needed
assistance from the church.I can only imagine how you would try not to
"bash them" for being LDS and receiving help from the church.Hopefully this Christmas season will soften even your heart.
dalefarrWho is criticizing the poor? And why aren't you helping
them? Or do you mean "we" as in everyone but me?
How unfortunate that in a time of severe ongoing stress in this great nation
there are still those who would rather play a game of he said/she said over an
article which highlights the welfare program of any different organization. I
did not see one comment concerning Lemonade in Houston. but then again, the
larger the organization the bigger the target. Who cares who the chairman is as
long as they get the job done. As for you LDS detractors, more often than not a
POTUS or president of other nations study the LDS model and comment that it
should be set up at a national level. What ever the LDS church is doing, keep up
the good work.
Dadof5sons | 10:33 a.m. Your story may be true. I dont have any
idea what a logging choker is or why the pay is so small. However your quote is
not one I have ever heard from any one I know, but is often used by unscrupulous
business men to demean working people. I believe that the only job
that is beneath a persons willingness to work are those where the reward is so
out of line with the effort that a reasonable person would not do it. And that
the reason foreign workers are willing to accept such is that they have been so
miserably oppressed in their own countries. It is to your discredit that you
take such unfair advantage of them. The American nation was a
promise of equal opportunity and fair treatment of all. Businessmen have broken
that promise, by their destruction of the character and worth of workers. Your
use of the phrase work is beneath me is a part of the business propaganda to
harm workers, not a part of the American worker.
Often times I read an article that is so positive and encouraging that (before I
look at the comments) I wonder how anyone could criticize. But yet, most of the
time I am disappointed that fault-finding is exactly what takes place.A church, an individual, or any organization, that helps the poor and teaches
self-reliance should be applauded. I marvel that people would want to denigrate
such an entity (or a report on it). There is much that is bad in
this world. Let's give a little slack to someone, anyone, doing good, please.
People working to improve the world need all the encouragement and assistance
they can get. And that's what it is, work. It is work and resources being put
to use to help people in need.Temporary jobs do help. Teaching
welfare principles also helps. By the way, I think the fruits of the system are
only fully known to those who use it and those who administer it. In other
words, those who see it up close and personal.
Personally, I'd like to see micro-loans available within the US for those that
need a hand up to be self-reliant, as many people are unable to tap into the
loan business until they have some money upfront. Seeing that firsthand with
some people I know.
In Placer Co., recipients of general relief (GR) were, if they were not
disabled, required to work for their benefits. While applying for SSI, I was
one, and proud to be working--and sorry when they told be to quit. I'd have
stayed, except I knew someone else needed to be there to fill their requirement.
The work I did was at a homeless program, where the residents were helped, but
also charged a small amount of "rent" to give them the feeling of
paying for their assistance, and given requirements to meet in order to stay
(the program's success is in the 90%+ range; I keep tabs on it). I would imagine
that this is a microcosm of what takes place, and although it may not make the
news, perhaps it is common enough that it is not that newsworthy. I truly hope
so. Since none of us can lay claim to have been everywhere, perhaps we should
quit generalizing. You know what they say about those who assume...
WHY do people have to complain about a good program? I'm pretty certain the
Mr/Ms Toronto was not the only person on tour of Welfare Square. Does Mr/Ms
Toronto also have something to do with the Lemonaide stand business opportunity
and the other places they visited? The church does a good job of helping others
help thand accomplished from a feeling of wanting to help others. And that's
the reason the government could not possibly make the same program work. They
dangle money in front of the noses of those doing the work to the point of
making everyone greedy.
Too bad wealthy religious organizations do so little in comparison to their
wealth. Sure it's a good model, but does the LDS model itself really help all
the people it could?I just see this article as self-admiration and
pridefulness concerning the welfare model of the LDS Church....just like so many
of the other articles by Deseret News. Oh....let us pat ourselves on the
back....again! A perfect organization....it is not! And then....you become a
basher if you point out faults, disagree, or have a different point of view. So
whose bashing who? LDS bashing LDS....Houston....I think there's a
problem....with the organization!
dalefarr, 1:23 p.m. maybe that's part of why poor people have trouble finding
jobs. When being poor makes people think you need to be drug tested before
receiving help (implying drugs and booze are why you're poor) and you are lazy
and won't, can't, or are avoiding work, and if you hear, read, and see enough of
that kind of attitude, can you imagine what happens to a person's mind? It takes
a lot of mental self-innoculation against that kind of thing to go and do what
needs to be done. Lately, many companies have been unwilling to hire anyone
without a job. It's not a pretty picture!
Hey Joggle,Does someone need a hug?
Joggle: If you knew anything at all about the orginization you would know that
what you are saying is totally incorrect. If you care to check you will find
that 13million dollars was donated for humantarian relief for Katrina. Read
more and you will find that more than that was utlized for relief help for the
tsumani in Southeast Asia and around the Indian Ocean, for earthquake relief in
Chile, Japan and else where. There is still relief efforts for Haiti, Japan and
others going on all the time. So where does all that money come from. It comes
from the membership of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints through
fast offerings and humanitarian donations.Fast offerings as all
other donations are used specifically for that purpose to assist with helping
the poor and needy. By the way the poor in this means both temporally and
spiritually. I've seen thousands spent for this purpose in our branch alone.
Now I ask, how many of those on these boards who are bashing the LDS Church have
contributed anything at all to helping those in need. You for one I bet is not
much if any.
Joggle: I respectfully disagree with your statement, Too bad wealthy religious
organizations do so little in comparison to their wealth. Sure it's a good
model, but does the LDS model itself really help all the people it could? I propose that the church does help all it can and more. But first, the
person has to want help. Then he or she has to go to the bishop humbly, and
then the bishop decides how to appropriately help the individual. I dont have
space to even begin to cover the churches large humanitarian effort. And, as it
should be, welfare help is private, so we (the public) really dont have a handle
on how much the church really gives.The church spends the Lords
money according to divine revelation, not popular ideas. I think the upshot is
that the church chooses to help in this way because it is the most effective.
With due respect, The Lord is pleased with the organization as a whole, maybe
not the individuals, but the church as a whole. See Doctrine and Covenants
1:30. I most strongly disagree that there is something wrong with the
organization as you state.
You guys make me chuckle. Here is something really good in the world. Let's see
if we can tear it down lest someone think good of the Mormons.In
reality, the LDS Welfare System is not perfect, but it blesses an incredible
number of lives both in and out of the LDS Church. It fosters self-reliance. It
lends temporary aid to the poor. The entire world needs to know of the good that
is being accomplished here and because of this conference and this article, many
more now have a clue. Get over it. This is blessing lives worldwide. Thank you
for what you do.
JoggleYou. Are 100 percent predictable in your commentsEach and and
every timeYou should take up the offer for a hug
@Bill in Nebraska, Give Me A Break, JNA, Alberta Reader Where did I
say that the LDS Church didn't help the needy? I know it does. I know how the
Church works. My statement is concerns the difference between what the Church
brings in compared to what it puts out in charity including welfare. The Church
is wealthy, right? Christ taught that one should sell all that one has and give
it to the poor. While that's not practical, why couldn't the church sell its
non-ecclesiastical assets and help the poor more than it does? Does the church
really have need of anything other than chapels, temples, MTCs, family history
centers, and visitor centers?"Thoughtful saints might wonder
whether the church should spend more of its assets on programs that benefit the
membership rather than further enriching an already huge financial base."
P119_Mormon America_Richard Ostling"The wealth moves generally
in the form of building projects and not, as one might expect, in welfare from
congregations in the United States to congregations overseas." P126_Mormon
America_Richard OstlingOtherwise, I just false personality
assumptions, preaching, and lecturing me about the Church! All very predictible!
Hugs are wonderful and I get plenty! Thanks_anyway!
continued....I admit I'm critical of the LDS Church. I'm critical of
organized religion as a whole. Religion is not so sacred that it can't be
criticized. I've learned many thngs about the Church directly from people who
are active, inactive, and former members of the Church. Every opinion I present
has a supporting basis. My criticism is directed at the Church as a whole and
not at any specific member or person. However, on the other side of the
coin....I frequently get predictible personal attacks or false personality
assessments....instead of opinion or debate based on reasonable arguments. None
of you need be offended, but I do expect a reasonable arguments with a
supporting basis! Please try harder!
As I understand it, any activity that is not concerned in the Church directly
with religious-related undertakings pays taxes, etc., for one, so it benefits
the part of the community in which it is located. Secondly, it also uses its
profits to benefit the Church, which, as a business, it can do--after all, as a
business, it is free to do whatever it wishes with profits. Third, the LDS
Welfare Program, by NOT making public recipients' names, is giving them some
dignity as they become as much as they are able to care for their own needs. Not
all can, true, but every bit of independence is a gift that is priceless! And
maybe it doesn't make those who want names, dates, and places happy to not be
able to quantify this program, it certainly makes a difference to the
participants, who can take part in their wards, branches, and stakes with their
self-confidence intact, thanks to a Heavenly Father's welfare program that does
not take that from them. Please recall, money is not the root of all evil, it is
the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Thank you.
Joggle,You said, "My statement is concerns the difference
between what the Church brings in compared to what it puts out in charity
including welfare. The Church is wealthy, right? Christ taught that..."There is a problem in examining the church this way. The LDS premise is
that God reveals, no? Well, this program is inspired. Let's just presume all LDS
teachings true to make this point.Joseph Smith translated. We know
this. BUT what many forget is that his powers to act on behalf of God were only
as strong as his faith and righteousness, etc. (at least to an extent anyway, I
don't presume to understand this completely)So, the LDS welfare
system is inspired. But, it is only as functional as we as a people are
righteous and faithful. So the mentality that 'the church has resources it COULD
be using' may work for other religions as a valid criticism. But according to
our doctrines, the only welcome criticism isn't "you should do this"
as we believe in revelation from God, not you. RATHER, if you say "you
could be doing more, or be better" while people may still disagree, I think
less hostility would surface.
Joggle, you make a good point about debate and logic. Perhaps let me present a
few points as I see them.I dont claim to speak for the church.
These are just some personal thoughts. I dont intend to wax religious either,
but one has to speak of spiritual things in order to accurately explain the
churches position.The church chooses to put so much money into
temples, buildings, and missionary efforts because (I submit) these are just as
important as welfare efforts in improving peoples lives by bringing them to
Christ. That is the stated goal of the church and its threefold mission. He
who has eternal life is rich (speaking spiritually). See Doctrine &
Covenants 11:7 and 6:7.Buildings and temples provide a haven for
invaluable instruction and ordinances. Missionary work is meant to extend those
blessings to all people throughout the world. In general, the church has
business interests that support its missions. For instance, it is not a long
jump to see how food resources such as large farms help support the welfare
program. The church is interested in peoples spiritual health as
well their physical welfare.
Joggle: I just love it when someone uses a book written by a journalist that is
not LDS but someone who tries to incorporate something that may or may not be
true. Then you take what they say as if it is fact. The problem is they know
no more about what is said or how the funds are used than anyone outside of the
LDS Church. You are basing your whole opinion on the opinion of a PROTESTANT
journalist, who is not even LDS. You want me to sit here and say they are
right. The answer to that is no. You should really look at it from our stand
point more than an outsider looking in. They are a journalist who is looking at
everything from a journalistic mind and not the MIND of the Lord. Until you can
do that don't try and mention what they said as fact because it isn't. It may
appear such and may be good reading but that doesn't make it true at all.
@Bill in NebraskaAnd....it doesn't make it false either. Just
because a person is not "of the religion" doesn't make their opinion
false. Often a source outside the Church has a more unbiased opinion than a
person who refuses to look at what is obvious. If it takes being LDS for an
opinion about LDS to be true then I could just as well disregard your comments
concerning my beliefs based on the same premise. Your argument still fails to
address the wealth of the LDS Church compared to what it gives out in charity
and welfare. Afterall they do have vast assets that have nothing to do with
religion. @very concernedI acknowledged the need for
chapels, temples, MTCs, family history centers, and visitor centers....which
includes spiritual concerns. Those are the ecclesiastical assets. However, in my
opinion, the non-ecclesiastical assets (such as the Mall to name only one among
many) and the money they represent could be better used for welfare and
charity....which I believe is usually a main focus of most churches. It's easy
to see that the Church is very wealthy and the assets often don't maximize those
assets toward helping needy people.
Joggle: There are some principalities that the Church has that are not based on
the religion. What you fail to understand is that there is a business side that
is run by the Church that doesn't belong to the membership itself. This
business side is just like any other business across the country. This company
basically owns assets that are used for different types of business. The
Deseret News though a newspaper is owned by the Church. However, it is still a
business. It pays taxes and has employees that are paid just as any other
business. The Mall you cite is not being built through any of the
funds/donations produced by the Church. This mall is a BUSINESS ventor to
beautify the downtown area and to revitalize it. It will provide needed jobs
and a facility to shop. It is a business.However, the donations,
the welfare buildings and etc. are NOT part of this so called business. You
seem to want your cake and to eat it too. Again you know nothing about the LDS
Church except what is strictly an opinion just as those journalist have an
Why is there always so little actual "reason" coming out of the
I would severly discorage people from attempting to claim they understand the
conditions and states of those recieving help from the Church. Who are any of
us to judge that some of the poor are not "deserving" of aid?
From my experience with going with the welfare truck driver the emphasis is
clearly on encoraging people to take steps to do as much work as they can. They
are expected to proactively find ways to take the relief from the distribution
point to their homes.Beyond this, I have no idea what assistance
anyone recieves from the Church. It is clear the Church gives much
more assistance to the poor and needy than some of its detractors will admit,
although it is probable we could do much more to help the poor and the needy.
I would also point out that bankruptcy rates are effected by state laws. States
like Utah that make it easier for creditors to garnish wages have higher
bankruptcy rates because there is a higher incentive to get formal debt relief.
In other states it is easier to just ignore creditors for longer periods of
Washcommon, You may have a good point. The micro-credit systems that
work overseas maybe could be implemented in the US. Sadly some things dubbed as
"micro-credit" are not worthwhile, so before you support a specific
organizations investigate their practices.I think though that
micro-credit is a place where people should become involved on a self-initiative
basis. Joseph Smith had the experience that as prophet and store owner, he
failed at the latter. If he did not give credit, people got made at the Church,
and if he pressed too hard for repayments the smae occured. The Church always
puts itself in a potential bind of people being made at methods of getting money
back when it gives a loan.
Just because you file for bankruptcy doesn't mean you don't pay your debts.
Many folks that don't give a crap would be more then happy to just ignore there
debts and let them pile up. Someone that actually is concerned is more apt to
file bankruptcy, if you file chapter 13, you still have to pay your debts, it
just gives you relief from the interest. Also Utah has a horrible medicaid
system for there disabled, one of the worst in the nation, expect a large
percentage of those that file for bankruptcy to have a lot of it to be medical
@Bill in NebraskaImagine if you had a corporation where the business
model was to have your customers give you 10% of their income every year, and
all you primarily had to provide in return were the buildings to meet in, a few
social programs and some speeches made periodically by the owners. Just how
phenomenally profitable would that corporation be?Why does there
need to be a corporate side? Why does the church need to buy malls, hotels,
restaurants, condos, ranches, farmland, Oahu land, resorts, TV stations, radio
stations, newspapers, and insurance companies? How does owning these things
contribute to the missions of the church of Christ-centered entity, perfecting
the saints, redeeming the dead, and preaching the gospel?Although
technically the funds may come from the profits of the church-owned businesses
or merely from the interest on its enormous investment capital, where did the
money come from to buy the businesses, stocks and other investments to generate
those profits? Everything the church owns ultimately came from money donated to
the church by its members - past and present. The church should
keep enough funds invested to keep it sound, but is billions invested in
businesses what Jesus intended?