BYU's mission is to change the world. They will never back down from certain
principles. I wouldn't be surprised if someday the university drops athletics
to focus on more important things, but BYU's goal is to be a light to the world.
An anchor in turbulent waves...
What does the word "integrity" mean?Far too often, society
is willing to set aside principles for a few minutes of pleasure. BYU will
never do that. Principles are eternal. Pleasure is momentary.
With my disdain of BYU football and especially it's fans aside, I honestly hope
that the Y stand firm on their current policies. Maybe they are "high
maintenance", but you have to respect someone for standing up for what they
believe in. Last year when Davies was suspended, I realized some new found
respect for the Y. I personally didn't agree with the suspension, but I
respected that they stood their ground. Conferences will come and go, but the
world will always respect you if you have a policy and stick to it. Politicians
could learn from this as well.
I would be shocked and more than a little disappointed if BYU changed it's
stance on Sunday play. When you compromise one Christian value, which one is
next? There is not another major Christian based University in the U.S. that
adheres to as high a Christian valued philosophy as BYU. An example of this is
all the other Christian affiliated schools who do not keep the Sabbath day holy.
It is one of the 10 commandments which all christian churches say they adhere to
yet these schools do not "practice what they preach". I do not
remember seeing an ammendment to the 10 commandments published in any Christian
scripture. There are individuals of all christian sects that choose not to obey
this commandment but the institutions that encourage and participate (choose to
ignore christian principles and commandments) appear empty to me.
I think the school will eventually change its stance. Oh there will be a
"rational" reason for the change, such as let the good wholesome
examples of these players be shown to a wider audience. You know ... similar
reasons people used for one of its recently graduated basketball players for not
serving a mission. Or another reason: if it is OK for these players to play
pro-ball on Sunday, then what is wrong with them playing college ball on Sunday.
It will change; they just need to come up with a reason that will sell.
@TJ: I hear you, but I wouldn't want to pass judgment on other institutions
that make different decisions. BYU has its core values, and I'm proud to be
associated with that institution. I hope that reasonable accommodations will
continue to be made for BYU sports with respect to the sunday play issue.
Football probably won't be a problem for the foreseeable future because, in
general, college football is played on Saturdays and Sundays are reserved for
the NFL. It may be a problem for the other sports, though. Hopefully BYU can
add enough value to a conference to make it worth that conference's hassle in
dealing with scheduling issues surrounding sunday play. Note that BYU does not
require that other schools not play on sunday. It doesn't have to be a
conference-wide rule, although of course BYU opponents are affected, and
tournaments are also affected, potentially.
@ Mike Richards | 3:50 p.m. Oct. 20, 2011 Pleasure is monetary? So,
byu is giving all that espn $ away?Seriously(?), A website
associated w/ Unive of Louisville sports used hubris to describe BYU's
expectations for a Notre Dame like TV contract. Sounds rather carnal, secular,
First and foremost, I am a BYU fan because of what they believe and what they
stand for. The Football team represents my beliefs and what I stand for on the
Good golly, Ms Molli, the decsion to play football (sports) on Sunday has two
completely different criteria.First, BYU is an institution. They've
set a standard. Want to play there? Then you have to abide by that standard.
The institution has the standard. Are you Catholic and want to play at BYU?
It's ok, but you aren't going to be playing on Sundays.As far as
players playing professional ball on Sunday, that is an individual choice. The
same for college players that are LDS and go to non-LDS colleges. They play on
Sundays if that's what the team does. Again, this is an individual decision to
accept the college's (intitution's) requirements to play.
I dont think that BYU is going to change its policy of not playing on Sunday. I
would be dissapointed if they did.
Good golly Ms Molli...You will be right about the justification; I
They make it sound like eventually all sports will be played on Sunday. I doubt
that. The only effect is tournament play and the NCAA has a rule that says if
you notify the NCAA before the season starts you will not play on Sunday, then
the NCAA will make adjustments. As I recall, four schools sign up for that
exception every year in every sport, BYU being one of them. I have always been
curious what would happen if the BYU women's basketball team goes all the way?
The semi-final or final game has alwaays been on Sunday. Guess the NCAA would
have to make a last minute move just like when BYU was put in the wrong bracket
once in March Madness.
@Ms. MolliYou cited examples of personal decisions by individual
players. Playing in the NFL on Sunday has nothing to do with BYU. The player
is no longer a BYU student. Also, going on a mission is a personal decision.
You can still attend BYU without having gone on a mission. BYU and
the church will not ever allow athletes to play on Sunday for any reason. They
have never and will never compromise on that.
BYU will drop major college sports before they ever compromise on no Sunday
play. It would be contrary to every reason that BYU even has a sports program
to allow a compromise that would send the wrong signal to the world. A
compromise on that principle would say, "Look, even BYU has a
price."I have been saying for some time now that I believe the
end is near for BYU's intercollegiate sports. They may, for a time, drop down
to the FCS or NAIA level, but eventually the programs will be dropped entirely.
Look no further than Rexburg, ID for your best example.
Players lift weights and watch film on Sundays.Coaches watch film
and have their coaches shows on Sunday.Fans watch the coaches show
and NFL on Sunday.Basketball team has the selection Sunday party on,
you guessed it Sunday.Sure BYU doesn't have games on Sunday, but do
they really observe it as a day of rest?
What you are saying is that many religions don't take 'standards' seriously. For
years I did not belong to any church because of the hypocrisy of their beliefs.
I joined the LDS Church over 30 years ago because of unwavering standards. BYU
you stay independent, they don't need to be in a conference. to Ms Molli -
serving a mission is a personal decision, not dictated by BYU or the Church.
Every worthy young man should serve, not everyone will.
@ sisucas"BYU's goal is to be a light to the world."You really had a different experience at BYU than I did. Or, you didn't
go to BYU...@BlueSaint"The Football team represents
my beliefs and what I stand for on the field!"Idon't want 'my
beliefs' to be associated with or represented by a football team. Football is
football. Religion is religion. Football can bring good PR to BYU and maybe even
the church...but it DOES NOT represent 'my beliefs.' (And PR can aid missionary
work BUT IT IS NOT MISSIONARY WORK contrary to what many folks have said.)@Fred T"As far as players playing professional ball on
Sunday, that is an individual choice."Word. BUT, the church (or
its members) vindicating such behavior and/or justifying it pulls the issue away
from 'individual choice.' I don't think I'd have to moral fiber to not play on
Sunday, (aka I'd do it!) but I sure have enough to not preach to others that
they shouldn't. Imagine trying to explain to Jesus while he was on the cross
that you cared more about a pigskin on Sundays than His commandments!
BYU will never play on Sunday.Stand firm.
BYU will eventually play on Sunday.Church owned KSL and Deseret News
do not have to deliver / broadcast on Sunday. If they chose not to they would
lose out on a lot of money. Same with BYU sports.
Uncle Rico,You live in Provo...Have you been on campus on Sunday?
I understand what many of you are saying, but I wouldn't hold my breath on this
if I were you. A lot of changes have happened within the church AND at BYU over
the years that I bet people said "never" would happen.
Independence is the only, albeit frustrating solution. I'd love to see BYU in a
BCS Conference but with the changes in conference affiliations and the pursuit
of mega TV contracts the Y will be left out to do the best they can as an
independent. Sunday play will never be an option.
So Davis plays the BYU vs Idaho State winner?
They may have a world-class broadcast studio, but they have junior high-class
football announcers on BYU-TV.
Oh my. Of course you are welcome to keep your standards.But,
understand that Sunday is not the only day recognized as the Sabbath. Jewish and Seventh day Adventists Sabbath is Saturday.What are we
supposed to do? Ban sports and shopping all weekend?Its not all
about BYU sports.
BYU will not only never play on Sunday, they will never entertain the thought.
And I am good with that.
I'm torn on this one. I asked a co-worker onetime who is a big fan of a
Catholic univeristy about the 10 commandment thing. His response was that they
go to Mass on Sunday and do other things at church, whatever that means, and
then they have no problem with the rest of the day being theirs. Sometimes,
definitions define our positions
I'm guessing the few posters who have said BYU will someday play on Sunday and
spin it have an obvious beef with the church. Get over it. Also, considering our
beloved prophet President Hinckley has said there are only 3 jobs that should
work on Sunday and none of them involve sports. Medical emergency personnel is
one, firefighters is another and police are the last. I know BYU will never
compromise on that.
I applaud BYU for sticking to their principles and not playing on Sundays.However, if they truly want to be seen as a light to world, they will
eventually have to drop sports. Unfortunately, college athletics in the modern
day is all about violence, greed, humiliation (of your opponent), pride, etc.
Unfortunately, sports brings out the worst in people. Ever seen BYU football
players jumping around, taunting and gloating over their opponents after making
a routine defensive stop? It's not exactly a Christlike sight.BYU
sports are not a missionary tool. I've never met a single person who has joined
the LDS church because of BYU sports. But I've met many who will never join
because of BYU sports.Being an example of Christ and a college
sports powerhouse at the same time is no longer possible. You cannot serve two
masters. In order for BYU to maintain its stated mission, they will have to
drop sports eventually.
live4uid | 6:36 p.m. Oct. 20, 2011 PLEASANT GROVE, UT Also,
considering our beloved prophet President Hinckley has said there are only 3
jobs that should work on Sunday and none of them involve sports. Medical
emergency personnel is one, firefighters is another and police are the last. I
know BYU will never compromise on thatWell that is interesting news
live4uid. But the athletes travel on Sundays don't they? Look at all the
people who are working on Sunday to assist these athletes in their travels. Why
is it OK for them to put OTHERS to work on Sunday so that they can travel on
Sunday. I just love to hear this OH THEY WILL NEVER PLAY ON SUNDAY routine when
it apparently seems perfectly OK for you to put others to work on Sunday.
Robin, if you think its impossible to serve god and play for a powerhouse you
must also believe that all Utah players who are Mormon should stop playing also
correct? Going to Byu or Utah has nothing to do with each persons
responsibility to serve god. I am ashamed when ute fans who are Mormons think
they can hide behind the red while criticizing Byu fans or players. If a Byu
player can't play ball at a high level and serve god then neither can a Mormon
ute. Picking Utah is hardly a free pass from doing what is right. Pathetic.
Re: live4uid So I guess that means that church owned newspapers and
news stations shouldn't work on Sunday either.I've met some confused
kids. From their employer (church owned DesNews), if they don't deliver
newspapers on Sunday, they are fired.Then later on Sunday, they are
told in Sunday school not to work on Sunday.
Ms Molli: There is a difference between serving or not serving a mission, and
keeping the Sabbath day holy. The first one is counsel that if it is done, he
or she will be blessed. The second one is a commandment from the Lord (one of
the Ten Commandments). BYU will never allow Sunday play. They will disband
their sports program before they will allow Sunday play. Guaranteed!
Independance is to allow more exposure of BYU to "the world." If they
join a league again, that opportunity will diminish, will it not?Sunday is a foundational test, a commandment test, for all. Lots of things go
on on Sunday, each can decide for themselves what they will participate in.
Keeping the Sabbath (Sunday) day holy is a commandment to all who believe in the
Bible, not just the LDS. BYU is to show the importance of that, as they live in
the world, but seek to put God first as a priority. So if you keep
comparing BYU to everyone else, well that just doesn't work. Y stands alone in,
though imperfectly, trying to prioritize love of God, man.
@Uncle Rico"BYU will eventually play on Sunday"You
obviously know nothing about BYU or the religion it represents. BYU will never,
let me repeat, never play any sport on Sunday. You could throw a billion dollars
at BYU and they will never play on Sunday. It may be that all BYU haters get
their wish and BYU drops sports all together but they will never compromise.
BYU needs to drop it's football program. It will never be at the level that
it's fan's want it to be; just to many constraints to have a winning team year
in and year out. Focus on your mission.
@clark kentIf your going to make arguements, please check facts.The athletic teams do not travel on Sundays. They leave directly from the game
to a plane waiting for them. They always leave on Saturday.
@Ted H.Yes, I agree...I don't think Mormons who play at Utah (or
Notre Dame, or Texas A&M, or Oregon, or USC, etc.) should play sports on
Sundays. But they have their agency - it is their choice. The difference is
Mormons (and for that matter, non-Mormons) who go to BYU have sacrificed their
agency in that matter. I do not presume to tell anyone else what they should or
shouldn't do - that is BYU's job apparently.You can't have your cake
and eat it too, Ted. If you want BYU to be a light to the world, you have to
deal with the downside, which may include the elimination of sports.
Please, please, please -- follow the example of BYU-Idaho. Just walk away. Walk
away from it all -- football, basketball, baseball. Let them all enter to learn
and go forth to serve and leave the world behind. Sure, there will be a few
years of withdrawal, as with any addiction. But, we'll recover and all will be
BYU should reconsider its no sunday play rule. Notre Dame is willing to play on
sundays and it has not affected the Catholic church or others perceptions of it.
I don't hear anyone calling the Catholic church hypocritical because it allows
its universities to play on sundays. BYU needs a little more autonomy.
We are having the wrong conversation here. The question is not whether religion
and sports can mix. That issue affects only BYU and maybe a handful of other
schools. The more critical question is whether academics and big-time sports
can continue to be mixed without academics being compromised. I would propose
that the answer is no. Eventually, the good of one is compromised for the
other. As college athletics become a bigger and bigger business and the stakes
continue to rise, the more widespread academic compromise (including cheating in
many forms) will become. Universities should not sponsor athletics. Do I think
that will ever happen? Not globally, but some institutions will make the
correct choice. It has happened before.
I can't believe how many people think BYU would even consider playing on Sunday,
it won't happen, not now or ever. If belonging to a BCS conf. would require BYU
agreeing to play on Sunday, you can forget ever belonging to a BCS conf. again,
it won't happen. That is why being Independent or staying independent may be
the best solution. Winning is the key anyway, belonging to a BCS conf. doesn't
make you successful. BYU and the LDS church have always had to stand alone or
independent if you will, doing so in sports would not be a big deal. I think
they would like to belong to a BCS conf. but they won't compromise their
principles to do so.
Robin, were the higher ups to decide to cancel byu sports because they decided
it was impossible to both be Christlike and have a great sports team I would
live. I just have a tough time when LDS utes somehow belive their
players don't represent the Church or have the responsibility to make good
decision. You say "BYU football players jumping around, taunting and
gloating over their opponents after making a routine defensive stop? It's not
exactly a Christlike sight."If that's your feeling, fine. But
I hope you don't believe that a Ute Mormon player doesn't have a responsibilty
to be Christlike. And I hope you're equally ashamed when a Ute Mormon
"gloats over their opponent."Or do you also not feel a
responsiblity to be a good neighbor because your bishop lives across the street
and he has MORE of a responsiblity.All Mormons represent the
church.If it's not ok for a BYU player to act a certain way, then
it's not ok for a Mormon ute to act that way either. And for a Mormon from
either team to not understand that is pathetic.
To: Ms Molli | 4:14 p.m. Oct. 20, 2011 Bountiful, Utah - even for a non-LDS
person as myself, your reasoning doesn't make alot of sense. First, while the
LDS church encourages all males to go on a mission, it is still the individual's
decision. Second, regarding Sunday play, the LDS teachings state the sacred
nature of the Sabbath. Again, it is left up to the individual to make that
decision for themselves. I really do not see this church changing their values
or beliefs based on the direction the wind is blowing. Coming from Bountiful,
Utah, I am surprised you don't understand this about the LDS church.
Monty1: You obviously don't know much if anything about the LDS church and what
we/they stand for. We aren't like other churches and there is good reason for
that and to just say compromise and no one will care isn't true and doesn't
work. The commandments haven't changed just because some/most churches don't
care if they keep them, God is the same yesterday , today and forever and that
won't change and neither will his command to keep his day / the sabbath day
holy. The LDS church is run by Christ himself at the head , with living prophets
and apostles as his leaders on earth and they recieve direction from him thru
revelation. Like I said God and Christ are they same yesterday, today and
forever and that won't change, therefore neither will their command to keep the
sabbath day holy. BYU won't go against that.
Well, this BYU girl is "really gazing at herself" and her community,
Brad, and finding out that the sorting out is pretty much done. "Who we are?" Observers of Christ's gospel. "What
we're about?" The business of salvation. "How to take
that and move into the next 15, 20, 30, 40 years?" You know as well as I
do that people much smarter and more influential than either of us are way ahead
on this. And finally, those anxious fans you're listening to?
They're just football fans. Among true BYU fans there's no "anxiety."
We're in great hands.GO COUGARS!
I wonder if Uncle Rico believes that if he keeps writing the same thought over
and over that it might magically become true? As for those that
think BYU SHOULD shut down intercollegiate sports (à la BYU-Idaho), they
see a disconnect between sports and being a good (or righteous) person that
doesn't exist. Whether BYU WILL drop football is a completely different concept.
However, given the emphasis that has been given in the recent past, it seems
doubtful. As was reported in this very newspaper, BYU-I has a somewhat different
mission than BYU-Provo. Maybe inter-collegiate sports don't fit the outreach
program the is going on in Rexburg - after all, online students can hardly
attend games in Rexburg.
BYU would drop the sports program before playing on Sunday, which is good, IMO.
I graduated from a university that has a top tier basketball program and I know
for a fact that BYU would not give any sports program as much power as the
school I attended. Basketball controlled so many aspects of the school I
attended that the students, faculty, and administration were at the mercy of the
basketball program. This is why I believe that BYU will never be a top sports
program. I think it is a good thing too.
Mormon UteThe decision to discontinue sports at Rexburg / BYU-Idaho
was a financial one as the college went to a full 4 yr academic program. No
sense in duplicating a sports program and the expenses involved when a student
only had to change his address for the sports experience.Uncle
RicoProviding news is a public service. Much like keeping a hospital
opened and staffed Sunday. Keep trying anti BYU-types. You'll
eventually succeed in denying your beliefs.
Has everyone missed the simple explanation for intercolegiate athletics being
dropped in Rexburg?As long as it was 2-year Ricks College, the
school was a feeder system for Provo.When they became 4-year
BYU-Idaho, their athletic program would've been competition for Provo -
recruiting the same talent pool.(I would think that if BYU-I had
kept their program, their basketball team would be competing in the Big Sky
right now...)A house divided against itself cannot stand, so it was
"farewell" to intercollegiate athletics in Rexburg.
BYU will remove their athletic programs before it plays on Sunday. PERIOD.
To Uncle Rico,Way too often people confuse individual choice with
Church standards. Church standards are one thing, individual choice
is completely one's own.BYU, being Church owned, will never
compromise on this issue that the Church sees as fundamental.I am
old enough to remember when intercollegiate sports was way down the list for
BYU.Those were the years that the Utes won most of its games against
the Cougars.When push comes to shove, the Y will opt out rather than
compromise its long-held standard.
It surprises me that throughout this whole conversation no one has looked at
the broder history of Mormonisim. Major comprimises/changes have been an
intregal part of Mormon history, and have always been very, controversial.
Changes (some would say comprimises) such as polygomy, blacks and the
priesthood, and Word of Wisdom adherence, have caused major uphevals in
Mormonism, and have come after decades of people saying they would never happen.
There are lots of small changes also some cultural and some doctrinal. The
point is the world is transitional like it or not and it doesn't matter whether
you are in the world or of the world you and your institutions will change. That said for the first time in my life I agree whole heartedly with
Mike Richards. You can acknowledge the reality of change and still maintain
your integrity. Integrity just doesn't have to mean you never change, it can
mean you find and live the foundation of your principles. Why don't you play on
BYU sports teams has not played on Sunday's when the game in that timezone is
not Sunday. Its interesting how many former BYU basketball and football players
who play or have played in the NFL or NBA,because its their "job"
requirement have also stated the missionary opportunities associated with
playing on Sunday.Maybe if BYU or the Church feels the missionary
exposure of playing on Sunday is warranted, the current policy or practice will
be changed. Look at how much money is spent annually on BYU athletes who than
get employed as a NBA or NFL players and on BYU coaches to train those athletes
to play professional football and basketball. What does that tell others about
BYU perspective to athletics and religion?
Anyone who thinks that either BYU will play on Sunday or that BYU will drop
athletics is out of their mind. The Sunday play issue has never been
a real issue and isn't one right now with the Big 12. The athletic programs top
to bottom compete very well at the highest levels and many of the programs are
consistently in or around the top 25, even with the difficulties of recruiting
athletes that have to abide by the standards, including Sunday play.For those of you who talk about workouts on Sundays, you are equally out of
your mind. Any athlete who does that does it on their own, off campus. Those
facilities are closed and off limits on Sunday.BYU will continue to
abstain from Sunday play, will continue to support athletics, and will continue
to consistently compete at the highest levels.
No question. Stay independent, maintain BYU standards. Be competitive. Let the
fans continue to love and enjoy BYU football without all the hoopla of the money
conferences. Feel good about it!
Most of my career has involved broadcasting college sports, so I would hate to
see athletics go away at a school like BYU (my alma mater), but paraphrasing
Bishop Glenn Pace, from his Book "Spiritual Plateaus"...we in the
Church often confuse tradition, with that which brings salvation. Can you
imagine the Church without the Tabernacle Choir, without KBYU or BYU
Broadcasting, without firesides, or without BYU football? Can you even imagine
the Church without BYU? Bishop Pace rightfully points out the things we do need,
and none of the above are among them.If the time comes when football
at BYU has outlived its usefulness as a missionary tool, it will likely go away.
That may, or may not ever happen in my lifetime, but I'm sure that someday the
Tabernacle Choir will be replaced by choirs of angels...and BYU football will
someday not exist, as well. Brad did a great job with his story, pointing out
much of what Church leaders have to consider when pondering the future of any
program in the Church...not just football at BYU. It's great food for
thought...and everyone who has posted here has thrown something on the table.
BYU suceeds because of the Honor Code and not inspite of it. LDS and non-LDS,
missionaries and non-missionaries come from all over to study and play at BYU
because of the standards the school espouses. There is a not a big slug of
students or ball players sitting at other schools thinking, "If only BYU
played on Sundays and allowed me to party and have pre-marital sex, then I would
go there." No - the attraction of BYU IS the high standards. If BYU, which
it will not, chose to play on Sundays it would LOSE athletes and athletic
prowess - not gain it. It doesn't matter what conference or how much money the
school receives because of its athletics. If the values and standards are put
aside, BYU would lose the current edge it has with the kind of student athlete
that is attracted to Provo. When the time comes that a school must
participate on Sunday and lower its standards in order to be competitive in big
time Division I sports - BYU will either drop to a lower division or just have
intramural sports. The minute BYU changes its standards, it loses its advantage.
To pragmatistferlife:You fail to realize, it seems, that as much as
many members of the Church latched onto the strong this-world beliefs of
polygamy, blacks and the priesthood, and the word of wisdom, are not mentioned
in the Ten Commandments. Sabbath observance is.The
Church owning BYU will never compromise playing sports on Sunday
BYU's commitment to principle is admirable but the attraction of money will
sooner or latter become most important; it always does.
To those insisting that BYU's stance will never change I say baloney. The
meaning of Sunday observance has been redefined in the past and will be
redefined in the future by the Mormon Church. It all depends upon what the
Church gains by doing so. All values are relative save one and that one is not
Sunday observance. The 1978 redefinition of the Mormon priesthood should put
this entire discussion to rest.
BYU long since compromised its principles by its involvement in the moral sewer
that is big-time college athletics. So, it can proudly claim that it maintains
high standards by kicking the fornicators off the teams and by not playing on
Sunday, but it exploits the athletes, making millions of dollars off their
sweat, and debases its academic standards by admitting hundreds of students who
are neither capable of nor interested in university-level study.
@ Brave Sir Robin --"BYU sports are not a missionary tool. I've
never met a single person who has joined the LDS church because of BYU sports.
But I've met many who will never join because of BYU sports."You forget about the athletes themselves. Ty Detmer and Jason Chaffetz are two
athletes that joined the LDS Church at BYU, and there are many others. Then the
effect and influence that those athletes have on others in immeasurable.
to all the haters: BYU will never play on Sunday. BYU does not watch film on
Sunday. You are spewing pure personal prapaganda.This article was
written by a so called religious expert who is throwing out ideas from his
standpoint. It is halarous to me that people with nothing but distain for the
LDS try to define who we are.Wasen't it the savior who said on the
cross, "forgive them for they know not what they do".
Ted H.,You're harping on something that really hasn't been brought
up here. This article is about BYU sports and the impact religion has in their
participation at the highest levels. Yes, LDS athletes at other schools should
abide by the same standards, but it is different at BYU, because BYU wants it
that way. BYU is meant to be an example to the world. The Church, the school
and the players have made the choice to put themselves out there as official
representatives. Individual Church members who participate in sports elsewhere
represent only themselves and their personal beliefs.
BYU will never play on Sunday. If it ever gets to the point that they can't
find non-Sunday competition they'll just close up their athletics dept.
sammyg,"The decision to discontinue sports at Rexburg /
BYU-Idaho was a financial one as the college went to a full 4 yr academic
program. No sense in duplicating a sports program and the expenses involved when
a student only had to change his address for the sports experience."I don't dispute the reasons for the decision. I merely point out that a
very successful program was dropped in favor of enhancing academic and spiritual
opportunities for the students. In fact the Church has spent hundreds of
millions of dollars more at BYU-Idaho since it became a 4 year school than was
ever spent on the athletic program went it was a junior college. My point is
that the Church has shown it's true interest is in the education not the sports.
Any sports program sponsored by a Church school must further the mission of
that school and the Church or it will be discontinued. Major college sports
have strayed from the purpose they were created for decades ago when they were
meant to enhance the educational experience of the students. Many college
presidents are lamenting this change and the management headaches that came with
it. Ask Gordon Gee.
fenderI understand your premise but wholeheartedly reject your, and
anyone else's conclusion, that because, as you put it, they changed their stance
on priesthood, they will change their stance on playing on Sunday.Anyone who thinks that the church simply changed its stance on who can hold
the priesthood does not understand, one, the eternal aspects of the change, or
two, the actual reasons behind the change.Go spend a year or two
studying the history of Africa, the governments of the countries as they changed
from colonies to self governance, the atrocities inflicted in the name of
religion, and the truly evil people who used Christianity to murder hundreds of
thousands of people, and you will begin to understand why the priesthood was not
restored to them until 1978. Better yet, speak with an African LDS leader who
lived through that period. They knew full well why the priesthood was
withheld.It cracks me up when people insinuate that the LDS church
was racist and changed simply because of pressure. The Church isn't a USA
church reacting to USA issues. It is a world wide church dealing with world
wide issues on a local level.
Bluecat82,My point simply was that the Church showed its willingness
to drop a highly successful sports program to fill a higher need and meet a more
important goal. BYU's main campus and BYU Hawaii could not meet the ever
growing demand for a high quality 4 year educational experience from Church
members. Knowing full well that changing to a four year program would mean
dropping sports the Church did it anyway to meet the need and fulfill the higher
mission.As I said in another comment, college sports has strayed
from its original purpose. As it goes further and further astray it becomes
more and more difficult for shools like BYU to justify sponsoring teams.
NO way will BYU ever play on Sunday. In reality BYU football has never been
about football. Why do you think Bronco talks so much about the firesides which
happen before the games on friday nights. Yes, there will be a loss of money if
they don't play on Sunday, it will be Alumni dollars. I will be the first one
to call and cancel my annual gift.
@Mormon Ute"Individual Church members who participate in sports
elsewhere represent only themselves and their personal beliefs."And if their personal beliefs include the LDS church(or any other church for
that matter) YES they do represent the church.And NO, the
responsibilty of a Mormon Ute is not different than a Mormon Cougars. Robin's
point was that BYU players cannot act Christlike and have a strong and football
program and that it's impossible to serve God and play top football. If that's
his belief fine, but if he doesn't also belief the individual Mormon Utes should
also pick to serve God over football, then he, like other utes, are hypocrites.
If you are a member of the church, you represent the church. End of
story.The only word to describe those who hide behind the red and
believe they don't represent the church is "pathetic." Either someone represents the church or they dont. There is no middle
ground.College affiliation has nothing to do with representing the church
or not. If your point is that the U of U doesn't represent the church....fine.
But the Mormon players do. Again, pathetic.
BigDaddyCoug,Take off those blue colored glasses. Major college
sports are going in a the opposite direction of BYU. Money, power and greed
have corrupted colleges sports to the point where the programs at some schools
are entities unto themselves. Gordon Gee at Ohio State has been struggling for
years to get a handle on what is happening in his athletic department. Unless
the college presidents stand up and take back control, we are headed for college
sports becoming a full tilt feeder system for the pros, complete with salaries
for the players. Degrees are already secondary for many of the athletes. Can
BYU compete in that environment? More importantly, do they want to?I'll give you a barometer to measure the Church's interest in keeping major
college sports going for the long term. Lavell Edwards Stadium is due for a
major remodel. If that happens in the next 5 years, I may be wrong in my
assessment. If that doesn't, you can bet they are preparing to let it go.
The problem with college sports these days, particularl college football, is
that the money generated by large, successful programs too easily clouds
rational judgement. I think the writer hits the nail on the head
with his piece. BYU football certainly appears to be at a crossroad, brought on
not only through its own designs, but also due to other swirling currents.There are signficant, complex issues looming over college football
today, including those who point out that too many businesses and colleges are
simply making money off the backs of football players. The facts are
that college football is a multi-billion dollar business. With the potential
corrupting power of money, we should recognize that there is tremendous pressue
on programs that want to compete at the highest level and still maintain the
highest levels of integrity and preserve their independence, to some degree,
like BYU. Programs like the Y's are absolutely susceptible to this
corrupting influence. And, when weighing all the risks and rewards; is this a
road we want to travel down?
As an independent national team, BYU would qualify for BCS bid just by winning
against enough good teams, they have a much better shot at it because they are
not limited to playing for the mostpart teams from a particular conference. The
key either way is winning all or almost all of their games, it's the same if you
are in an AQC. BYU is a national program and can make it as an Independent, few
other teams qualify for this status.
sergio,You don't understand BYU or the Church's motivation for
having a sports program. It has nothing to do with bringing in money. BYU
sports helps get the name of the Church out there and showcase the Church and
the institution. The Church has plenty of money to do that through other means
and actually spends far more on those other means than what BYU spends on
To Brave Sir Robin,BYU sports are a missionary tool. Although, you
are probably correct that nobody has joined the Church solely due to BYU sports.
I would be concerned if somebody did join the Church for BYU
sports, but BYU sports does give publicity to the LDS faith to millions of
people who may not otherwise be exposed to the LDS Church. I have several
friends that if it wasn't for BYU sports they would think Mormonism was a weird
cult and leav it at that.It is a tool, it isn't a reason for joining
the Church. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the reason to join the Church.
I think the word "crossroads" is a good one for this situation, and
the 2 roads (BYU's road and the road that big-time College Sports is on)look to
be heading in opposite directions. I'm a cougar fan, I'd love to see them in
the Big12, but I think the big 12 doesn't need them that badly, and they don't
want the headaches that are pointed out in this article.So I think
I'm ready to admit to myself that the reasons I love to cheer for BYU are the
same reasons that the AQ conferences don't want to deal with them.
Understanding that, I can embrace independence. I have even more respect for
the institution and the church, and I hope they succeed in sports. I hope even
more they maintain their values.
Mormon Ute:Yet, even though we agree BYU's athletic program isn't
about money, isn't it interesting that reportedly BYU's program is one of the
very few that actually turns a profit?Anyway...my point was that
Rexburg was dropped to, if not enhance, at least not compete with Provo. Not
sure that fits into your definition of "fill a higher need and meet a more
important goal" but it very well could. I agree with you on the
LES upgrade - it will be interesting to watch. Personally, I'd be surprised if
BYU didn't remain where they're at right now...but if I was any good at
predictions, I'd be retired by now!
@Mormon Ute: To say that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints who play a sport somewhere other than at BYU do not represent the church
is to deny the covenant that members make at baptism, which is to stand as a
witness of/for Christ at all times and in all places. Please, Mormon Ute, don't
speak for the church, and don't speak for those whose covenants really mean
something to them. Thanks.
Competing athletically at the highest level possible and doing so with integrity
and honor is important. BYU will never drop athletics and never play on
Sundays. BYU's football program basically funds all other athletics. Why would
they drop it just because we are not in a BCS conference? I love
seeing BYU as the underdog. We should never get in the top 25 in football or
basketball. Yet we frequently get there. Ever since I can remember (and I am 45)
I have been hearing about how BYU can't do this or that and compete. How we
won't survive. We are still here, we haven't compromised, and we still compete.
I love it.
@Mormon Ute,However, I do completely agree with your assessment
of"As I said in another comment, college sports has strayed
from its original purpose. As it goes further and further astray it becomes more
and more difficult for shools like BYU to justify sponsoring teams."You are spot on that it has become very difficult and will continue to
be so for BYU to fulfill its main mission and have sports teams be a high
priority, because so many other things(including value and character) are lost
among top sports programs.But above all - I maintain that every
Mormon in the world represents the church. It is nonsense to argue about who is
"more responsible" for representing the church. I would never justify
my poor behavior by saying "the bishop is more responsible than me to
represent the church." If such is one's logic - then no one is really
responsible other than President Monson.If any Mormon Ute criticizes
BYU fans or players for not properly representing the Church - they can drop
they hypocrisy and start with the guy in the mirror.
OldPortDAMI insinuate nothing, but find it amusing that you
immediately jump to the conclusion that I think Mormons are racist. That in
itself speaks volumes. You can concoct whatever rationale gets you through the
night regarding the change in a long held doctrine that according to the church
required a revelation. I merely state the obvious: values are relative, save
faith itself. The meaning of Sunday observance differs from one Christian group
to another, as you surely must know. Its meaning for Mormons and BYU can and
will change if the church determines that it furthers its primary agenda.
Your poll questions were interesting. Let's face facts. If a Univ wants to
compete for a National Championship in the 'BCS Era' then they have to be in an
AQ Conference. Boise State, TCU, and Utah have shown us what happens when you go
undefeated in a non AQ conference. The old boy network gives you a pat on the
head and a consolation prize. Notre Dame has become irrelevant. BYU's schedule
as an independent is mediocre at best. "Competing for a NC" does NOT
mean that you play Idaho, San Jose, Idaho State, and New Mexico. BYU has to be
in an AQ conference to even sniff a chance at the NC game. Which conference
would take a small private school that is 'high maintenance' and is in a small
TV market? To get into the NC game now you would have to go undefeated AND hope
that the winner of the SEC Championship game has a loss on their record.Only then would you have a hope to play the Pac-12, Big10, or Big-12 Champion
with the best record. "It ain't happening."
lasermann:"You forget about the athletes themselves. Ty Detmer
and Jason Chaffetz are two athletes that joined the LDS Church at BYU, and there
are many others. Then the effect and influence that those athletes have on
others in immeasurable." Kresimir Cosic...Jeff Chatman...Timo
Saarelainen...it's a long list.A list I'm pleased to count myself a
part of...even though it was "just" soccer in the 70's :)
I think that if the church wants to (1) help support its athletes gain
employment as professional athletes and therefore provide good, positive role
models for the youth, and (2) provide a wholesome environment for these athletes
to get a college education, and (3) to help these athletes find a companion with
LDS standard, etc., I don't see a choice but to continue providing sports at
MormonUte:No 'Blue Colored Glasses' on here as you suggest. Just the
facts... BYU continues to compete at the highest levels in just about all of its
sports. Doesn't mean they are at the very top, and football has had some less
than stellar seasons since Lavell left. However, there are rarely games where
BYU doesn't compete, regardless of the team and sport. They are
committed to their athletic programs. There is a bunch of confusion with
everyone who thinks any of this is about money... it isn't. BYU doesn't need
money.As for competing, I assure you that BYU strives to compete,
and continues to desire to be the best. They just won't compromise their
standards to get there. If that means we don't win another NC or ever go to a
BCS game or conference, then so be it. Doesn't mean BYU will drop sports or that
any real fan will stop attending. It is a great tradition for LDS families to
love BYU sports. We will all continue to support them and the programs will
NEVER be dropped.
Is it not my position to "instruct" on the matter of Sunday play, only
to provide an individual's perspective and opinion (based upon what I
understand) - as it relates to the matter. Therefore;If a
University (especially, state-owned)has agreed to Sunday play then all its
players are bound by their agreement to the University (if they accept a
scholarship). Thus, as it relates to the University of Utah (since they have
agreed to all the rules of PAC-10 play), all the Utes players are simply bound
by that agreement to play on Sunday - if the game is scheduled on Sunday. The
point therefore, is that both the specific player and the University have to
weigh their options "before they agree to accept the scholarship or enter a
specific Conference." After they have agreed to the terms, they must
perform as agreed or separate themselves once again. The position of
"Agency" exists until the choice is made. @BYU, they
"will never" agree to play on Sunday and therefore that issue becomes
mute. The individual does not lose their individual agency, they
"choose" to surrender it in the same manner as the first example
above. End of discussion.
BYU won't ever play a game on Sunday. But I highly doubt they'll ever shut down
the football or athletics programs due to involvement in a conference that
requires Sunday play. The obvious solution, which I'm surprised no one has
mentioned, is that they will simply forfeit any specific games scheduled for
Sunday and keep playing the games on other days.
I loved playing football - for some years it was all that kept me in school and
out of jail. (That and a healthy fear that my dad might kill me.) And I was
blessed for a little time to be able to play at the D1 level (did I just date
myself?)Now that I am middle-aged, I question the wisdom of having
played to the extent I am not sure I want my boys playing. I'm effectively
crippled, not having experienced a pain-free night of sleep in over 20 years. I
worry that multiple concussions are beginning to affect my quality of life.
(Those of you having read my other posts are nodding your heads in
agreement.)And frankly, in spite of all the wonderful things I
learned (teamwork, sacrifice, hard work, never giving up, losing gracefully,
winning even more gracefully) it is not a very Christian sport. "Do unto
others before they do it unto you." In years when the Cougs could block,
there was not very much Christianity in their technique. I've never seen a
legal cut block or crack block and thought, "Now THAT'S how the Savior did
it!"... (to be continued)
fender "I merely state the obvious: values are relative, save
faith itself."And that is why you don't understand.You think the church exists to "further it's primary agenda."You don't seem to understand the Church at all.
Sorry for the multiple posts...I also wonder how many guys I hurt -
whose knees I blew up or "bells" were ringing because I popped them.
And I confess that while I never tried to hurt anyone permanently, I never felt
bad when they took a while to get up.And, personally, I was most
effective when I played with a chip on my shoulder. I know some guys who can
turn that on and off... I was not one of them. I'm not sure I want my sons to
have to learn that mentality in order to be "excellent". It's not
consistent with being a good man.One can learn all the wonderful
aspects of team sports by being on a good construction crew, which in the end
produces something valuable to the world... a home. All I did was help send
60,000 people home with hangovers.My point is this... maybe it's not
a bad thing if the Church eliminated football. Surely the Roman model of
entertainment - trained "warriors" crippling each other to the
wine-soaked, spasmodic cheers of the masses - might be anathema to a people
trying to teach a gentler way. I wonder...
Sports at BYU is considered a big missionary tool, a few months ago Via Sikahema
mentioned in his blog that he knows some of the brethren who think BYU sports is
second only to the full time missionary program in it's effectiveness in getting
the message of the restored gospel out to the world. That said, it is a tool to
a bigger goal and just entertainment. Too many people want to put too much
importance on getting to a BCS bowl and winning a NC. Those will always be the
goal for the team but that is secondary to the most important goal. It would be
easier to get to a BCS bowl if we were in a BCS conf. and that may get us more
exposure , therefore it would be desirable but getting exposure is the main goal
and winning is the key to that, whether we're in a BCS conf. or independent.
That is why I have maintained that staying independent isn't a bad thing and we
can get the exposure we desire is we just win. Utah is like so many other BCS
teams that if they don't win, little else matters. Lessthanhalf theBCSteams
Many good athletes will choose another university if not playing on Sunday hurts
their chances for to keep progressing with their sports goals. That being said,
this is already happening as many of the great athletes will never join a
program that will kick you out for what you do with your girlfriend in your own
Ted H.,The fact that you don't recognize a difference between what a
player represents in playing for BYU vs playing for another school is pathetic.
Of course there is a difference. Every player who plays for BYU, LDS or not, it
told they not only represent the school, but also the Church. They go in with
their eyes wide open. Often players who play for other schools and are LDS
don't even get recognized as being LDS in public. They may be recognized by
their teammates and coaches, but their is much more exposure for the kids who
choose to play for BYU. They officially represent the Church, because of where
they chose to play. LDS kids playing elsewhere officially represent their
school and that's about it.
Ross,I've got news for you, only one indpendent gets in just by
winning. Notre Dame gets in if they are ranked high enough. No other
independent gets in unless the BCS decides to grant them an at large position,
just like all the other non-AQ teams. BYU has no better standing now than they
had in the MWC.You are right about BYU being able to survive as an
independent while few others can. Unfortunately they don't have the clout that
Notre Dame does.
Linus,You are misinterpreting what I said. I said there is a
different level of representation between players at other schools and those at
BYU. The players who choose to go to BYU are told up front they officially
represent the Church. That is why the honor code is so strict. Players at
other schools do not represent the Church in any official capacity and many
people outside their teams don't even know they are members, because they only
see them on the field of play.There is a huge difference between
officially representing the Church and living your values. Let's use missionary
service as an example. As a missionary you are an official representative of
the Church. If you commit a sin as a missionary, you will be much more severely
disciplined than if you committed that same sin before you became a missionary.
Why, because you officially represent the Savior and the Church. Same thing at
BYU. If Brandon Davies had been playing at another school, he would have been
subject to Church discipline in private. However, at BYU he is subject to the
honor code and public scrutiny, because he officially represents the Church.
See the difference?
Ted H.,I will repeat what I said to Linus. There are different
degrees of responsibility. When Bishops and Stake Presidents interview youth
for ecclesiastical endorsements to Church schools they tell them it is a
priviledge to attend that school and their tuition is subsidized by tithing
dollars. As such they are expected to uphold a higher standard than members of
the Church attending other schools. This is the reason for the honor code.
They are being watched by the world, because the Church is putting them out
there for the world to see. The Church is spending a lot of money to give them
the opportunity and more is expected of them than the average member. This is a fact that cannot be changed by all your blustering. That is why
Brandon Davies sin became public knowledge and he lost his position at school
and on the team. At another school, his sin would have been dealt with in
private and he would have continued playing on the team. The public would have
known nothing about it.Of course we should all maintain our
standards and live up to our covenants, but we don't officially represent the
Kami,The Church wants to provide a positive experience at BYU for
all students. Athletes are just another class of students. They won't stop
providing all that you say for all students, but athletes may one day have to go
elsewhere. We are fast approaching a time when there are very few positive role
models in athletics. There will likely come a day when athletes won't be
anybody's role model. Our kids will have to look up to people who have made
real contributions in the world.
Pathetic Mormon Ute,If you don't believe that every Mormon
officially represents the church - you're a joke. I've got believe, that as you
are LDS, you must ultimately agree what matters is what God says. If
you think God sees a kid pick Utah and immediately excuses his responsibility
from representing the church - wow. Typical clueless ute.
"Sunday play is not an issue for the Irish either"... Nuff said!
BigDaddyCoug,I didn't mean to say BYU doesn't compete, but we can
already see it is becoming more and more difficult. Outside a BCS conference it
will be impossible for BYU to generate the money necessary to compete for a
national title on a regular basis. As the NCAA moves towards authorizing
payments to players how is BYU going to compete with that and do they want to?
Also, the corruption that exists in college sports may soon make it unpalatable
for institutions like BYU to remain involved. That is a compliment to BYU, not
a slam on them.I know BYU is committed to atheltics right now, but
the reason I said you had your blue colored glasses on is you cannot see that
there already are signs that support from Salt Lake is waning. The dedication
of the new broadcast facility is an example. While the sports media made a huge
deal over the state of the art facility at the disposal of BYU sports, Elder
Eyring didn't even mention sports at the dedication of the building.As you said, sports at BYU is not about the money. Fans like you won't see it
coming until it's gone.
Mormon Ute,You are wrong. I've got to believe, to God, you
officially represent the Church.Arguing who is "more
responsible" or "held to a higher standard" is a childish excuse
by those looking to forgive their own issues.Do I not have the
responsibility to be a good neighbor because my bishop has a "higher
standard"?Do I not have the responsibility to be an honest
worker becase my stake president is "held to a higher standard" at his
work?Do I not have the responsibily to make any good decisions now
that I don't go to BYU anymore and the prophet lives in the same state and he is
"held to a higher standard?"You have alleviated so much
burden from me. Thank you.It no longer matters what I do because
since I don't go to BYU any more I don't represent the church.Poor
bishop, stake president, and President Monson.They are the only ones
who represent the Church.
One other point alot of people are missing is that even though we / players /
BYU administration / students(of BYU), etc we are all just human beings trying
to do the best we can and even if we are trying to live the gospel the best we
can we are trying to live in the world and not be of the world. That is a big
challenge and some do better than others and some struggle with that more than
others. It is a learning experience too and takes time and we learn as we go, we
make mistakes and don't represent as good as we should or could but the
important thing is what is our attitude and the desire of our hearts. Sometimes
the desires of our hearts aren't as much in line with the will of the Lord as it
should be and it takes time to realize that and make the changes we need to
make. We need to be carefull how critical we are of others as we all have our
faults and weaknesses. Like I said recognizing and changing takes time and often
takes maturity to be able to see things clearly.
I'm so surprised that playing on Sunday in the Bible Belt. They are known for
their strict Christian Values. Then again, I don't live their. If any place in
the country that might succumb to working with a Christian school, I would think
the Bible Belt schools- Big 12, SEC would be most emenable to this. Start with
KEEP THE SABBATH DAY HOLY.BYU does have a good incentive, Money.
They have a great following wherever they go and it's getting bigger. Also , TV
coverage. BYU sports will be targeting such markets as Texas simply because
that's where the best football is in the country. It'll become a much bigger
sell for coaches if they try and bring a kids to BYU; a 1000 miles from home,
but Mom and Dad are able to watch their child play at least 8-10 games per year
where they might not be able to travel.
StarfarerI'm pretty sure I understand the church just fine; whatever
it is you're trying to say...well, yeah, I would need a decoder for that.
Since not playing on Sundays likely had no effect on those mid-majored cougars
getting blasted -- AT HOME no less -- by 44-pts, courtesy of their Pac-12 big
brothers on the Hill, nor their dropping of 7 of the last 10 to us as well, I
don't see how the continuation of their Sunday embargo will change anything.
It's not like they were going to get an invitation to play in a BCS
bowl, so really...what's the difference?
Brad, please look up the difference between "begging a question" and
"posing a question."
@Mormon Ute, Although I see your point and a Ute myself, I'm with Ted 100
percent on this one.One's membership in the Church means infinitely
more than the college one chooses to support. We should not belittle ourselves
as proud Mormon Utes by stating we dont have a high standard ourselves. No need
to point to someone else by saying they must behave better than we do. I am
proud to say I represent the Church. And frankly, it shocks me any LDS person
would not happily accept this responsibility.Yes, cleary there is
more publicity for BYU when something such as Brandon Davies happens. However,
that doesn't change that fact that we ALL have committed to acting like the
Savior would. I hope no one shirks this responsibility or tries to excuse their
own behavior by pointing to somoene "more responsible."
Ted, the longer you keep engaging in this argument you're losing, the worse you
look.When an LDS kid trots out on the field for any school besides
BYU, he is an LDS kid representing his school. When an LDS kid trots out on the
field for BYU, he is an LDS kid representing the Church's school. If you can't
understand the difference, you aren't trying or don't want to understand.I've agreed with you on this point all along: It shouldn't matter what
school you go to - if you're LDS, you should behave a certain way on and off the
field. To God, a chop block looks the same whether the perpetrator is at BYU or
somewhere else. But to the non-member masses, it looks very different. And if
BYU sports is a missionary tool like you claim, then how people view it does
Wow, what a lot of interesting points, thoughts and a little dogma. I have an
opinion just like you-all. BYU will play on Sunday the same year the Prophet
announces that we will no longer hold Sacrament Meetings on Sunday. I think I am
pretty safe in predicting it will not happen in any of our lifetimes. So enjoy
BYU athletics, paint your face blue, display your flag and have a good time at
the non-Sunday games. For you Ute fans, enjoy your games, whenever they play
them. Just keep in mind folks that it is a GAME.
Robby,The more you keep telling other people they represent the
church and the more you excuse your own responsbility or that of other Mormon
Utes the more embarrassed I am of a fellow Mormon."But to the
non-member masses, it looks very different. And if BYU sports is a missionary
tool like you claim, then how people view it does matter."Agreed, to
the non-member masses there is more focus on BYU - I've never argued that
point.And please show me where I "claim" byu sports is a
missionary tool. Waiting...still waiting......Just another cop-out of your missionary responsibility by throwing it on the
BYU football players.
@Brave Sir RobinWe should embrace our chance to represent FIRST and
foremost our church. We should ALWAYS stand tall and together with all members
of our church. I dislike the rivalry mostly for the religious division(often
between members of our church). You are correct that more damage is done to the
integrity and face of the church when BYU has a player misbehave. But our
responsibility to stand for Christ is in no way lessened because we choose Utah.
We make serious promises to God each week that we will remember him and
do what is right. As members of the church(both BYU and Utah) let us not try
and shove that great assignment and commandment aside.
My children have all participated in soccer. Sometimes make up games were on
Sunday. I took the example of BYU to help bolster my position that we don't
play on Sunday, even when we are in a tournament. We have consistently excused
ourselves from Sunday games based on our religious beliefs supported by BYU's
position not to play on Sunday. I hope they keep that standard.
The University of Missouri board has granted permission this afternoon to its
President to accept an invite to the SEC should it be extended. The SEC
Presidents have not yet responded.Perhaps this is a step toward an
invitation to BYU from the Big 12. Things could happen soon, with both Bronco
and Holmoe voicing desire to join a BCS conference this week.
@Zoniezoobie,I've already read reports that West Virginia will be offered
the big 12, even though they can't join for a couple years.The big
12 will not ever invite byu, nor will any other BCS conference. They are an
average mid-major and that is their peak.
They'll never play on Sundays. A laughable thought.
Mormon Ute:I hear what you are saying, but you are interpreting
signs that simply don't exist. Have you see the (relatively) new facilities for
the football team across from the old field house? The LDS Church does not waste
money like that, and only the football team has access, btw. It's amazing, as is
the practice facility. When I played 20 years ago, we didn't have those
facilities. We had the field house. Mass investments have been and are
continuing to be made to the facilities.Who cares what President
Erying didn't say about sports... Obviously, the broadcasting facility has a
broader mission than sports. Sports is simply a vehicle for drawing an audience,
and it happens to be available on BYU tv.
What's so important about the almighty "next level" ????I
am reminded of ancient Israel who wanted to be like everybody else as well. See
what a king got 'em.
This is where I greatly admire and respect the late, President Gordon B.
Hinckley of the LDS Church for his bold leadership in eliminating, altogether,
the intercollegiate sports program at BYU-Idaho. This was replaced by a
well-developed, well-organized INTRAMURAL sports program. This is
notable not only for the tremendous cost savings involved -- and increased
emphasis on far more important things in life -- but also for an ironically NEW
emphasis on the role of physical education in the everyday lives of its
students. For example, FAR, FAR more students participate in team sports at the
school, than before. These students are gaining a true Physical Education.
Ted 10Mormon Ute 0
What a bunch of excuses. No invite because the Y, although now single, will not
flirt at the party.
Utah and TCU have never played football on Sunday. This is an excuse.Bust a BCS game a few times and you can get invited. Boise State is next.
Just do it and stop making excuses. On the other hand, Louisville
got in, but they didn't play on Sunday either.
@BigDaddyCoug, when the Church sells the school, it will bring a nice return on
their investment! it will help to build more Temples,right? That is the goal??
It seems to me that religions, like society and everything else, change. It wasn't until sometime in the mid-80s before women could wear jeans at
BYU. Perhaps a small change, but nevertheless a change. I understand that
teachers in the early 1900s were fired from Brigham Young(then academy) for
teaching evolution. Now I'm told evolution is accepted and taught at BYU.It just depends on how much change is needed and how quickly the change
@Aloha Saint George "I'm so surprised that playing on Sunday is in the
Bible Belt. They are known for their strict Christian Values." Yes, you are right. That is why the Dallas Mavericks and the Charlotte
Hornets do not play home games on Sunday (unless on National TV - same deal as
Jazz) and why Jacksonville moved Halloween to the last Saturday of October and
why the major college sports are not on Sunday and major league baseball is not
on Sunday except for national TV. On the other hand, there are a lot more people
in the Bible Belt than Utah. So, you will always have a Sunday audience too for
the non-active. So, this whole article is about nothing as Sunday play is not a
factor with the Big 12.
This article is really kind of needless. BYU will never play on Sunday, period.
So why even go there.Utah has just shot themselves in the foot.
The only way byu will ever play on sunday or allow one of their players to be
named player of the game by a beer sponsor, will be as a school with no
affiliation with the lds church. The lds church, contrary to many of their fans
belief, is all about moving the gospel of jesus christ over the world's goal
line and not the football. Someday the church maybe forced by cost constraints
to sell the school to sympathetic outside investors. as the church grows around
the world, it will not be able to afford its worldwide membership to the same
educational opportunities that is offered in the usa.The church will
get out of the football or sports business and focus on building temples that
will dot the earth and not little byu's. there will still be little y fans on
every corner but no sunday night football.
Ted H.,Nowhere have I said it doesn't matter what average members
do, but the Church handbook clearly differentiates between those who have an
official capacity in representing the Church and those who are average members.
You may not like that and you can have an opinion against it, but that is how
God's inspired servants in the Quorum of the Twelve have written it. There are
so many different levels of responsibility it is hard to list them all here, but
someone holding a temple recommend is held to a higher standard than someone who
doesn't, a missionary who has been set apart as an official representative of
Christ is held to a higher standard than someone who has not, a Bishop, a Stake
President, a Seventy, an Apostle, a Prophet. I am not making this up, it is
stated crystal clear in the hand book leaders follow in handling discipline. I
am just using that same pattern in stating that a church member who chooses to
play sports for the church school has a greater responsibility, because they are
recognized more readily as representing the church.
Ken,Whoa buddy. I haven't said a single word about us as fans. I
am talking about the kids playing sports and that is what Ted and I have been
discussing. The bottom line is the kids who choose to play for BYU are held to
a higher standard by the Church, hence the honor code. That isn't to say that
an LDS kid who messes up at another school will not be subject to Church
discipline, but their Bishop will help them through it in private and they will
be able to continue in school and on the team. At BYU it is different and the
Brandon Davies situation illustrates that.I have never, nor would I
ever, claim that fans or members of the Church like you or I should be held to
different standards. I take very seriously all of my committments to God and I
hope every other Church member does as well, but you fool yourself if you
believe a grevious sin committed by President Monson would be treated the same
as if you committed that sin.
I feel I need to make something crystal clear, because Ted H. and a few others
have totally misinterpreted my position. My statements regarding BYU players
representing the Church should not be construed to mean that each member doesn't
have an obligation to live the commandments. Since when is the honor code a
commandment? Do we all live the same standards each day that missionaries are
required to live? How about President Monson? I don't think so.Have any of you been to the temple? I have news for you, you now are held to
a higher standard than before you made those convenants. So, I say a BYU
athlete is held to a higher standard and it is outlined in the honor code. Show
me where a Utah athlete's standing in school or on the team can be harmed by
violating that BYU honor code.
I knew that this Topic would get great feed back because it mixes both Religion
as seen by Some Mormons and BYU Football. Also Religion as seen by some other
faith groups.At BYU you sign the honor code (have you ever read that
or do you just wave it).Playball and follow the rules. You get a top education
at a top school and great TV Exposure for being Drafted into the Pro. Worth around $100,000 dollars per year in school and perhaps Millions over a
lifetime. Other wise go to Logan and lead a more or less normal life.Go to a sub leval program like Weber State and take you chances. Or an NAIA
School and take your fat chances. I would go for the Y, I would also
get Married. BYU Sticks to their Guns on Honor Code Issues.
Understand that going in and you will be fine.BYU just does not want
the whole 9 yards they want a First Down, What they really want is a TD, Two
Point Converation and to Recover the Onside Kick.Or all that and a
bag of chips.No Sunday Play is their right DaPrivate School.
@ Jeff S. 6:21pm:Regarding your comment: "I understand that teachers
in the early 1900s were fired from Brigham Young (then academy) for teaching
evolution."This is how false rumors get started. Where are the
data on this statement?
Mormon ute, my bishop(ute fan believe it or not) is held to a higher standard
agreed? Based on your logic its perfectly fine that I criticize him since I
heard him swear once even if I have a mild swearing issue myself right? After
all, it doesn't matter what I do since he officially represents the church and I
don't right? Not hypocritical at all according to you.
I doubt anyone will read my post, but what the hec.What keeps
getting lost in these discussions is the problems with the entire idea of the
BCS. It's very existence is about $$money and eliteism. Therefore to seek
membership is in essence supporting any and all BCS mission purposes and
consequences, whether one thinks it good or evil. It truly is a
system of have and have not's.All of us, by our very Western
Societal existence, support those who work on Sunday. It is far more than three
occupations that are "needed" on Sundays. If you want a warm building
in which to worship, people must work to allow you such comforts.I
believe the idea of a Sabbath is to worship one day a week; and I honestly
believe the actual day is of no consequence to God, just as long as a day of
worship happens. God certainly took more than 144 hours to create
this green earth; hence my worship ought to be more than 24 hours, or 12 hours
or sunset to sunrise---which kinda makes being a Jew in Alaska an interesting
I am neither a Utah nor BYU fan but I would prefer to have a team win against a
lowly WAC or MWC team than lose to a lower tier PAC-12 team.BYU did
the right thing when they left the MWC...which will son be a has-been conference
along with the WAC.
You can be rest assured that BYU will never change their stance on sunday play.
They also will never get rid of their athletic programs. For as long as there is
a stage set for play athletics and the unbending no sunday policy will be in
place... A great evidence to this bold statement is with the way they handled
the situation during the NCAA basketball tournament in March. Policies of the
Lord never change and BYU will not adapt to the wicked world of sports just for
BCS glory..... That glory is fleeting. Eternal glory is endless.
Chris B,When the Utes transform into an 0-5 team will you please
quit denegrating yourself as a Ute troll on these boards? If BYU is an average
mid major what does that make the Utes who can't even help but turn the ball
over 4 times a game to the PAC-12? How is it that this average mid major has
beaten the conference brother you will be losing to on Saturday much to my
delight? Get with the program and abandon your hideous pursuit of looking silly
and down right unintelligent.
@Mendel, 10:29p On Oct 21.Fair question: "where are the
data" on my statement that people have been fired from BYU for teaching
evolution."The Story of the Latter-day Saints" by James
Allen and Glen Leonard, pp. 484- 485. Also, "The Mormon Hierarchy,
Extensions of Power" by Michael Quinn, p. 810. A good overview is also in
"Journal of Mormon History," v.5, by Richard Sherlock, pp. 33-59
BYU set the standard nearly half a century ago by forfeiting play in the College
World Series. After sacrificing so much over the years in defense of eternal
principles, the Cougars would lose most their fan base if BYU became like every
other school in the country.