Excellent, excellent article and about time, too. It is so very obvious to LDS
that this is bigotry, but if you should object, you can count on being told you
are a "whiner," and that you just don't get how "offensive"
LDS are. Yeah right.One local comments board in particular
(cough*SLTrib*cough) is particularly bad in allowing horribly bigoted remarks
about LDS. You would think they would be more progressive and proactive - some
day, this will be a black eye for that newspaper.And it is so very
true that "new" objects of bigotry are not immediately recognized as
such. Substituting "Jew" or "Black" for LDS (in this case),
however, at it becomes glaringly apparent.
Thanks for the article.It was very thought provoking. I think that
"anti-Mormonism," is the real issue. The underlining cancer is the
general lack of respect for others' opinions. Respect for others' views is what
has made this country great. When we fail to listen, we fail to
learn and improve. Not one of us has the right answer; it is through honest,
respectful, and lively debate that this great country can grow. The
easy answer is never right.
Opps. Forgot a couple words.I DO NOT think that
"anti-Mormonism," is the real issue...
As England stood alone, during that awful time of 1940, as Winston Churchill
once stated, it was their "finest hour". I feel it a privilege to be
in our church's finest hour. Are we to expect anything less?If no other
GOP candidate quickly condemns these allegations, then so be it.I am very
proud of both Romney and Huntsman. It is their finest hour, as well as mine, and
ours, as LDS, despite the outcome.
Yes, and the highest prejudice against Black Americans was in the South among
Democrats. They claim to be for a freer society but in reality, these
Democrates are for a closed society where no one can progress. They are all for
welfare and entittlements that keep the poor, poor. They support the
wanton destruction of commerce and free trade, by taxing business out of our
country. They support the destruction of American business by enviromental laws
and overt regulations. Democrates are against your job! They want every
penny you do earn, because they believe they can spend it wiser then you can.
They want control of the raising, through school funds, of your children because
they want to control what your children know. They believe they are far smarter
then the rest of us. The Democrats are the most prejudice people in our
country. If you don't believe me read what is said after I post!
I don't mind the anti-Mormon comments at all...When are people going to figure
out the more hate or bigotry that is spoken the better it is for the church,
more and more people will and do look into the church to find out what is true
and what is not. The exposure that the church receives from this can be a big
"Yes, and the highest prejudice against Black Americans was in the South
among Democrats."Ever wonder who was president when civil
rights bills were passed and ever wonder why Democrats don't win the south
SSOLDMAN,Your rant against Democrats in the South is misplaced - as soon
as Lyndon Johnson signed the Civil Rights Law, all those Democrats became
Republican, just as he feared they would....And actually, your
stereotyping, sweeping generalizations, lack of accurate information, and
attempting to place all the blame for everything in the world on one faction (be
it LDS or Democrats) is just what this article is about - a general lack of
respect for the "other," which, if untamed, can easily turn into
Prejudice of our age? Really? Of the polls that the Slate article references, 2
include poll data on whether someone is more or less likely to vote for a gay
person and people are LESS likely to vote for a person who is gay. It was just
recently that our government mandated that gays and lesbians be fired from their
jobs in the military. And LDS people can even get married too! And they think
they are picked on? Just look at these same polls and see how
Muslims, Atheists, and Gays do in those polls. Mormons aren't even in the top
three minority groups that show prejudice in the polls the article
references.Mormon-phobia is wrong. Voting against someone on the
basis of their religion is wrong. Religious persecution is wrong. But calling
this the "prejudice of our age" is absurd.
I'm fine with being called a cult. In fact, the Church might do better to
embrace the idea. The younger generation might think it's cool. I'd rather be
called a cult than christians by the evangelical hypocrites.
'Prejudice' implies that the dislike is irrational. Based on heresy and enforced
through propaganda. Let me be clear. My dislike for the
LDS church is not because of heresay. It has not basis in the irrational and it
is factually based on actions of the group, as a whole. This will
probably not be posted but: Hawaii, 1996. The opposition against
civil unions in Hawaii can be traced back to the LDS church. Though just in my
teens at the time, this would have effected me as an adult.
California, 2008. Prop 8. The LDS church has gone on record giving thousands of
dollars and volunteer time against gay marriage. Mitt Romney. LDS
presidental candidate, signs 'pledge' to investigate LGBT. I, did
not choose to dislike the LDS church. The LDS church chose to take
action against gay Americans. As such, I still do NOT hold that
'all' LDS hate gays. But the actions they take as an entity, fuel my
resentment. If those persons take that as 'prejudice', so be it. I, will not resort to name-calling. Just an admission of the actions
and timeframes that took place. Good day.
Its unfortunate that so many LDS people stood by and watched as the GOP went
after others with their extreme rhetoric about being marxist, socialist, anti
American etc.... and said nothing and now that same rhetoric has been turned on
them. This type of bigotry is wrong and we should all stand against it, it would
have been nice if the LDS members would have stood up sooner for those that
faced this prejudice before them and with those that still do.
Like former Congressman Scarborough, I am amazed at Christian leaders who set
themselves up to judge other Christians. I was a boy when John F. Kennedy was
elected and I remember anti-Catholic attacks of that time. Now, the Mormons get
I failed to stand as other where persecuted by the far right and now their is no
one left to stand for me. how sad.
Please.The Deseret News has been CREATING news about how 'Obama's
purported weird strategy' about the Mormon faith... even when Obama
said ZERO about the Mormon faith. Then, created a scenario where
Michelle Bachmann's pastor MIGHT have said something about the Mormon faith. even when Bachmann, said ZERO about the Mormon faith. The
Deseret News has said more about 'anti-mormon prejudice'...than any of it's
I was really impressed with Bushman's comments. I hope that our society can
learn to respect both Mormons and Muslims.
This is an excellent and very helpful article. I really appreciate the wise
statements that were quoted."Saletan cites several different
public opinion surveys Gallup, Pew, Quinnipiac, Lawrence and Poll Position to
show that while prejudice against voting for black, female, Catholic, Jewish and
Hispanic candidates has declined significantly during the past half-century,
prejudice against voting for a Mormon candidate remains high."And how would we feel about a Muslim candidate?
@jeff how about we learn to respect others period regardless of
religion, political affiliation, gender, sexual orientation etc...
Petra, great comments.This article hit things right on the head. I
would provide reason, but since when have others listened. Those who are willing
to work with each other would already know how accurate this article is.Great commentary from this writer and those quoted!
The interesting thing about this is that as a non-LDS, I find a large volume of
factual information readilly available to all to understand the doctrine of the
LDS faith. It is quite easy to see that the LDS faith is based on faith in Jesus
Christ. Seems like this qualifies as Christian according to the Bible I read.
Second, the old prejudice that exists is based on old out-dated information that
is full of half truths at best. This issue of religion is based on fear that the
LDS faith may actually have something to it. All of this has made me actually
start reading more about this church. Let's look at what a candidate can bring
to the office and what they propose to lead with. The question about the LDS
faith is old and has no legs any longer. Let's look at the issues and where the
candidates stand. Discussing whether or not the LDS are Christian or not is old
Great article! Joe Scarborough nailed it.
The Deuce, thanks for your insightful comments. I am a Mormon and when someone
tells me that I am not a Christian, it hurts. My daughter left the LDS church
and does not believe in the Savior anymore. That is hard as a mother, but I am
happy when she finds or connects to anything that will help her to be
reflective. There is a part of me that would love to convert everyone to the
Mormon church, the reason being, is my great love for my religion and what I
have learned about my Savior and what he has done for me. But I also encourage
others in their religious beliefs, in the Christian society. When we are
practicing our religion and following the teachings and the examples of the
Savior, then we are going to treat others with kindness and respect. So Deuce,
from one Christian to another Christian, thanks so much for being a Christian
friend to we Mormons, it really means a lot to know that there are people out
there like you and like those who are defending how we believe.
The news media is twisting the real issue here to create this anti sentiment and
out rage Mormons are displaying.It's not their religion, its their
doctrine and upbringings as socialist and socialism that bothers me. Every
Mormon candidate is displaying his true character as a socialist and the workers
and commoners have no rights or authorities with individual rights. They would
rather give fugitive illegal criminals the benefits and jobs that government and
tax payers need to insure high profits. Since all the Mormon
candidates are also business owners they know full well the benefits of
socialism and keeping Americans unemployed. For business its Nirvana as it is
very tax free lucrative profits and they use racism and socialism to keep
workers rights and wages suppressed. If they and all Republicans had
their way, the Federal Labor laws and minimum wage would be repealed. This whole
country would be a Right to Work nation to keep workers poor. They think workers
should not be prosperous with good pay and wages without their consent.
I strongly recommend reading two books that go into detail about the politics
and religion surrounding Mormons who have run for president. The books are The
Mormon Quest for the Presidency: From Joseph Smith to Mitt Romney and Jon
Huntsman (2011) and A Different God? Mitt Romney, the Religious Right and the
Mormon Question (2008).
Unfortunately, this article gave no substance, clarification or enlightening
definition from the Baptist position nor of the core issue for Pastor Jeffress'
target group: Should evangelicals be leary of Mormon presidential candidates?
Each source quoted in it expressed no knowledge of the evangelical's concern, so
who cares what they spouted off? This is par for the casual journalism we get
here.Where was the Baptist side explained or one qualified
representative quoted? I can write the same one-sided article, quoting only LDS
prophets and giving no context. It will never see print here, because the
open-minded, fair censors won't allow it. There are several of us evangelicals
who try. We break no comment rules and get more rejects than accepts. How is
that possible?I was LDS for 35 years, evangelical the past 25.
We've attended So. Baptist churches for over 20 and have been teaching a course
entitled, "Witnessing the Biblical Jesus to your Mormon Friends" for
over 18 years. We emphasize sharing in love, understanding the different
definitions of each denomination's terms, and knowing the history of both.This class is always full, they get all LDS scriptures. That's how you
begin the dialogue.
Well, I guess DN's censors are at it again.What is wrong with
pointing out the hypocrisy of the Mormon Reaction to this latest ado? Mormons are apalled that others are bigoted towards them, but they see no
problem with being bigots themselves (anti-glbt bigotry anyone?).There is a word for this: Hypocrisy. Jesus was quite clear in
condemning the hypocrites.
Mormons presume they have a right to be liked.You don't.And those who don't like Mormons, and don't agree with Mormonism should not be
vilified.This is typical Mormon persecution complex and playing the
There is no room for religious bigotry, and heaven knows that as one whose
personal and family history has seen bigotry from the early days of the Church,
I find it ridiculous how people profess to be Christian yet know nothing of the
teachings of Christ. However, I find that many of my own LDS faith also fail to
know and understand the teachings of Christ. Many of our own faith also engage
in forms of religious bigotry, while at the same time have a persecution
complex. We are thin-skinned about valid criticisms of our faith and eat up the
hyperbole of others, such as calling religious bigotry of Mormons "the
prejudice of our age". Such statements are over the top, particularly in
light of bigotry against other faiths that is rampant. How many of you came to
the defense of Islam when a mosque was proposed a few blocks from the World
Trade Center site, or defended President Obama when lies were told about his
religious beliefs? No, we live in a country that purports to grant religious
freedom, yet religious persecution is widespread, and Mormons are hardly unique
being singled out and engage in it themselves.
So Morning Joe Java is your religion expert, although admittedly "not
religious himself". Good source there.And Bushman thinks
tolerant America allowing all fringe religions to get legitimacy should define
the Biblical litmus test. Hmmm...Politically, Jeffress said
everyone can run. He cast no aspersions on that persuasion, and said he would
vote for Mitt in the general. Religiously, he spoke to his own camp and it was
a highly inappropriate venue. His pulpit is that terrain, in moi opinion. He
tried to explain that he was agreeing with LDS, from the perspective that they
also claim not to be from historical Christian origins. But if you're going to
open the door to an in-house debate, have enough sense to pick the time and
place where you can define your terms, quote your scripture refs and explain
your case.It is silly, from all of us former Mormon's perspective,
that there was such shock at the use of the dasterdly "C" word. Even
Jeffress explained that Mormomism has always been considered "a theological
cult" by mainstream Christians. I never knew that as an LDS, but walk into
any Christian bookstore. Bushman should be up on his homework.
Those who really want to believe that anti-Mormonism is THE "prejudice of
our age" should look at the comments made by Santorum, Bachmann, and others
in the GOP about homosexuals that receive no condemnation whatsoever by other
GOP contenders or the GOP in general. In fact, the prejudice against homosexuals
by the GOP is so standard that hateful comments (or booing a homosexual military
serviceman) doesn't even cause much of a reaction from anyone.Latter-day Saints should be especially cautious of calling jumping on this
slogan as prejudice against homosexuals has been exemplified by "The
Brethren" (TM) who repeatedly vilified homosexuals during the 2008 Prop 8
campaign, by accusing them of aligning with Satan and seeking to destroy
families and the world a large.Homosexuals make up larger percentage
of US citizens than Latter-day Saints, but (as this current election shows) we
are far more likely to have a Mormon president than a homosexual one.
als Atheist | 7:19 a.m. Oct. 12, 2011 Provo, UT "Mormons
presume they have a right to be liked. You don't. And those who don't like
Mormons, and don't agree with Mormonism should not be vilified."You are right, I don't have a right to be liked, but if you hate anyone
because of the community that they live, you are prejudiced. The word
"prejudiced" means to "pre-judge" without any other
information.Lets use your words and talk about some other groups
(pick your group):"(Atheist, blacks, Jews, Baptists, gays...)
presume they have a right to be liked. You don't. And those who don't like
(Atheist, blacks, Jews, Baptists, gays...), and don't agree with (Atheist,
blacks, Jews, Baptists, gays...) should not be vilified."It is
about respect for others. If you dislike someone because they are part of a
population, you are demonstrating a lack of respect for others. It doesn't
matter who you are. This demonstrates a level of prejudice.It is
only through respect that a civil discussion can occur. I don't have to agree
with you to respect your opinion, and I strongly disagree with your above stated
Why are people so bothered when someone speaks out against the church? It
doesn't create anything positive, only contention. I have learned to not let it
bother me when others speak out against the church because in most cases they
have an irrational hatred for it any debating them is only a waste of time.
Saletan can quote Gallup, Pew and Poll Position all day long. The Bible is the
sole determination of the Word of God for evangelicals. It is not the only
source of truth for many other Christian denominations, by their own doctrinal
statements. So for Mr. Saletan to pontificate on American tolerance is
meaningless for evangelical ethics per se, while it is a marker for
pollsters.If "Anti-Mormonism" is this century's prejudice,
what was Joseph Smith's 1830 prejudice against the entire Christian foundation?
His "c" word wasn't cult, it was "corrupt". And each LDS
prophet has maintained that opinion down to the present. How disingenuous of
Bushman not to note who first assailed historic, Biblical Christianity. I'll
vote for the first Mormon who honestly addresses his own foundational beliefs,
denounces this silly claim that prejudice is driving this theological divide,
and quotes all his own leader's statements about the absolute lack of validity
in even a single Christian denomination.I've got the quotes ready,
an entire library of Mormon sources.. Who will print it first?My
Palestinian and Jewish friends will never vote for each other. Ditto for my
Mormon and Baptist family. But we all BBQ together.
Its a regrettable fact that a lot of anti-Mormon bigotry indeed exists against
LDS members and ironically, much of it comes from those who are swift in seizing
the so called high road when it comes to tolerance. However, many
LDS people mistake a reasonable challenge to some of the more fantastic claims
made by the church as being somehow anti-Mormon. They are quick to play the
"anti-Mormon card" when presented with any rational evidence to the
contrary...the church is very slow to admit that they may not have a monopoly on
the truth. In fact certain challenges to some of these rigid claims of absolute
truth will land LDS faithful in a Bishops court. For a personal invitation, just
try presenting academic evidence in Priesthood meeting by Egyptian scholars that
sheds doubt about the claims made by Joseph Smith regarding the Book of
Abraham.This, however, shouldn't excuse some of the more mean
spirited attacks against sincere LDS people, nor absolve anyone from
perpetuating anti-Mormon bigotry. As a previous poster said, "when we fail
to listen, we fail to learn and improve." This includes tolerance of
religious beliefs, even amongst disagreement.
As a Mormon, I recently had the opportunity to listen to the leaders of the
Church. Each speaker bore a strong, powerful witness to the Savior as the Son
of God and the importance of our personal relationship to him. It was a
wonderful Conference. That said, the teachings of our Prophet today is no
different than what Joseph Smith taught. Joseph's desire, and the continued
purpose of the Church is to lead us to Christ.
I would encourage my fellow LDS to also treat people of other faiths better.
While many do this, some do things that offend other faiths and it is not good.
This is a moment in time that all can learn, not just people calling the LDS
Church a cult.
EsquireWhat lies were told about Obamas religion? I guess you
haven't heard his pastor rant on about whites or our country? Would you sit in
a church for 20 years if your didn't believe the hate-speach comming out of your
reverend buddy, whos like an uncle to you?As for Islam...lets just
judge them by their fruits.
From the number of articles the DN is posting on this topic, I think I need to
get a larger violin.
Someone said that religious bigotry is the 'thinking-man's prejudice'. I have
argued that it isn't. It is the result of not thinking, of following the
fashion, i.e. political correctness, rather than thinking on one's own.On the other hand, if we had someone come to us from a different,
non-mainstream religion, i.e. a Wiccan, a bona-fide pagan, we should respect
them as we want to be respected. An Egyptian friend told me he was living in
Houston during 9/11, his LDS neighbor came over to his house and helped him
guard it because of what the other neighbors might do.
Ever wonder why nobody condems the Amish religion? Because they keep to their
selves, stay out of politics, they don't condem any other religion's or people
regardless of race, sex, or just about anything.Is there a lesson to be
Step by step, the truth about the LDS church is moving out into the world. Many
learn each day that the LDS church is synonymous with Jesus Christ and there is
nothing contrary to his teachings in what they teach. It is great to witness
this happening in such a big arena. I won't vote for Romney because he is LDS
and I hope many won't vote against him for the same reason. I think he will be a
great President and will help the U.S. back to greatness.
@Weber State Graduate "For a personal invitation, just try
presenting academic evidence in Priesthood meeting by Egyptian scholars that
sheds doubt about the claims made by Joseph Smith regarding the Book of
Abraham."For a personal invitation, just try presenting
academic evidence by Mormon scholars and Mormon Egyptian scholars that shows
evidence about the claims made by Joseph Smith regarding the truthfulness of the
Book of Abraham. And see how open YOU are to that.
Petra, It is so very obvious to LDS that this is bigotry, but if you should
object, you can count on being told you are a "whiner," and that you
just don't get how "offensive" LDS are. Yeah right. Actually
Mormonism is anti-Christian. A short list:JS said, all their creeds
were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were corrupt(JS History
1:19).Brigham Young said, with regard to true theology, a more
ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world (JoD
8:199)John Taylor. said .Christianity, but it is pack of nonsense.
the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than
My guess is that many Church members are surprised at the attacks on Mr. Romney.
Consider:*Obama has no moral standard so he will use Romney's
membership any way he can through his puppets.*Those that lead the mega
church groups are often more like business leaders than religious leaders. They
play to their congregation and want to protect their donor base.*Media and
entertainment types resent the Church because of the standards that we are
expected to live. They resist anything that has a right or wrong teaching.*Some people just want to get their name in the news so they will be for or
As a member of the LDS church I have no problem with people labeling the church
as cult. The church's origin and rituals fit that definition. I went
through the temple for the first time in the late 80's. That was a rude
awakening. The word 'cult' came to my mind after that experience.
Wayne Rout | 9:02 a.m. Oct. 12, 2011 El Paso, TX "My guess is
that many Church members are surprised at the attacks on Mr. Romney.
Consider:*Obama has no moral standard so he will use Romney's membership
any way he can through his puppets"@Wayne-and statements like
this is EXACTLY why so many people are biased against mormons! Who do you think
you are to judge the President this way, simply because his standards may not be
the same as your standards. I am LDS, but I see bigotry when it exists and
don't put my blinders on when it happens to come from the mouth of another
member of the church.
I am non LDS. And I agree that the mormans should not be called non Christians.
But LDS members shouldn't complain about those who discriminate against them.
I have moved from Utah after spending my entire life there. I have never
witnessed the discrimination against others as the LDS members do to non LDS
members. I have some very good friends that are LDS and do not discrimintae.
But as a whole...LDS people are cruel to those who are non members. Complaining
is a "do as I say..not as I do" reaction. Try embracing those from
other religions and they will do the same to you.
I wonder if the anti-Mormon feelings will ever go away. Will there ever come a
time when Mormons will not be the object of derision and scorn? Part of me
thinks not, part of me hopes it someday happens.
@Petra, It is so very obvious to LDS that this is bigotry, but if you should
object, you can count on being told you are a "whiner," and that you
just don't get how "offensive" LDS are. Yeah right.
Actually Mormonism is anti-Christian. A short list:JS said, all their
creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were corrupt(JS
History 1:19)Brigham Young said, with regard to true theology, a
more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world (JoD
8:199)John Taylor. said .Christianity, but it is pack of nonsense.
the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than
I guess I could have said "Liberals" but it is all the same. I was a
Truman Democrat many years ago. I voted for John F Kennedy, Conservative
Democracy. The Civil Rights Movment was one of the greatest things for this
country. It allowed all to be equal under the law. The current Democratic Party
is just full of all kinds of things,I know from many years of living, are wrong
for everyone. You do not hand out money to those who did not earn it, and you do
not take it from those who did. That is theft..It creates generations of welfare
kids. It does not cure poverty. It has not worked and it never will. Over taxing
the rich will only move them out of our country, and the jobs, that the business
they own, produce. This is very bad for our nation! When the vast majority of
the 'good' jobs come from the government this is socialism. The government
produces nothing and must be checked. It is a massive resource drain on our
nation. Expecting the government to provide for you is wrong."Those
who would give up their freedom for security, deserve neither."
MyChildrensKeeper | 5:20 a.m. Oct. 12, 2011 Taylorsville, UT All I can say is WHAT are you talking about?
@ RonKearnsI could say a million different things but you summed up
everything with your comment, thank you for that. As member of the church I am
proud that both Hunstman and Romney defended the fact that religion has nothing
to do with how well you can run this great country. This pastor is entitled to
his beliefs as we are to ours but when it comes to stating that in political
forum or debate he has crossed a line. Religion should always be left out of the
conversation when it comes down who would be the best president. I am surprised
by some republicans, you think that most of the LDS faithful are conservative in
values and vote conservative they would want to defend them, so they could
always get their vote. Anyways the church will always be persecuted this is
nothing new. Those who fight against the church are fighting a losing battle.
Its not going away and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints will
continue to grow. I am proud to be a member, until the Savior comes again things
I think that many liberal policies are wrong and I voice my opinion on why I
think those policies are wrong. That doesn't make me an anti-liberal or a bigot
against liberals. I think Mormonism is wrong and I voice my opinion on why I
think it is wrong. That doesn't make me an anti-Mormon or a bigot against
Mormons.I think it is important to make the distinction. However, I
also think that Mormonism is as incorrect as any other religious theology. I
admit that since I see religion as absurd that all other things equal I would
generally trust the intellectual judgement of a secular politician over a
devoutly religious one. (Again, I said all other things equal because it
certainly wouldn't be my ONLY consideration). I can consequently understand how
others viewing Mormonism as more absurd than other religions would view a strong
believer in that religion running for political office with greater skepticism
@Wayne,Really man. Has no moral standards? Get off your
high-horse. What makes your morals better than his? Who's the judge?@KM, "What lies were told about Obamas religion? I guess you
haven't heard his pastor rant on about whites or our country? Would you sit in a
church for 20 years if your didn't believe the hate-speach comming out of your
reverend buddy, whos like an uncle to you?"KM, do you have any
idea how much anti-black hate speech came out of your church's founders for over
a hundred years? Your precious BYU is filled with a racist history, even the
founder had direct revelation from God. So please ... President Monson sat
through way more than 20 years of that kind of talk. Give Obama a break. Was
rough times for blacks back then too!
@KM, you want to judge religions by their fruits? Like the Mountain Meadow
Massacre? Or the Inquisition? Or Southern Baptist attacks Mormons? Don't go
there - it is a fruitless endeavor, one that casts doubt on all organized
religion, in which case criticisms of Mormonism do not matter one whit, right?
You bring the same religious bigotry to the table that many in this nation
condemn. I remember the song, "Before you accuse me, take a look at
@Ute FanI'm very open to the evidence presented by Mormon scholars.
As a matter of fact, I have examined it very carefully and read as much of it as
I can with an open mind in order to try to come to terms with their reasoning. I
find their conclusions rather fascinating and I'm certainly intrigued by the
mental gymnastics one must exercise in order to accept their circular logic. I'm more open, however, to the unbiased conclusions of non-Mormon
Egyptian scholars (without an agenda0 who maintain that Joseph Smith's
declarations were decisively inaccurate.My larger point was that
such criticism does not rise to the level of anti-Mormonism and that laying
claim to victim status for reasonable disagreement is disingenuous. At the same time, such criticism SHOULD NOT be used as a weapon to promote
bigotry against sincere Latter Day Saints who hold strong to their religious
attitudes.The LDS church and its members should extend the same
tolerance for disagreement to others, including their own members who may
question the problematic issues surrounding the BoA. But disagreement is not
well tolerated within the LDS ranks.
majmajor,You can disagree all you like, just as you can disagree
with the reality of gravity. It doesn't change the reality.There are
people who live in "communities" of organized crime, gangsters, and
drug cartels. I hate such people without ever meeting any of them. I an quite
confident I would like some of them if I got to know them, but I am not willing
to do that. I hate what they stand for and how unhealthy I think their group is
for society and humanity.If that makes me prejudiced, so be it.Your logic is flawed. Neither blacks nor gays choose to be. Religion is
a choice, for the most part, although religions try to indoctrinate children as
young as possible to limit their choices.If you demand respect from
me, you must earn it, just like everybody else. If your organization meddles in
the civil rights of others, I don't respect that.What about my
opinion do you "respect"?Mormons think you must agree with
them to show "respect" to them and their religion.I do not
"respect" superstition, myth parading as truth, and exploitation of
the gullible.Why do you?
What if the candidate were Catholic and believed the Pope was inerrant? (meaning
the candidate did not have sovereign control over his intellect)What if
the candidate were Shia Muslim and believed the Ayatollahs words were beyond
questioning?What if the candidate were Mormon and believed the only
marriages that were valid were performed in LDS Temples?What if the
candidate were FLDS and believed that any man not married to at least three
wives needed to get with the program?A person's belief system can
mean a great deal. I would not vote for any of them.
I find it interesting that people who are anti-Mormon get all their information
from anti-Mormon sources without bothering to study Mormonism itself. So many
people use tired old arguments such as Mountain Meadows Massacre to prove that
Mormons are 'hypocrites.' Mormons never claimed to be perfect. Some anti-Mormons
are so afraid of the Book of Mormon they refuse to even touch it, but how can
you know Mormonism if you haven't studied the Book of Mormon to see that it is
purely about Jesus Christ? Why do evangelical churches spend so much time
preaching and teaching against Mormons instead of preaching their own religion?
What are they afraid of?No one has claimed that Mormonism is the last
frontier when it comes to prejudice --it just happens to be the focus of this
article. The prejudice is real and accepted in so many cases when other
prejudices have become taboo. Why is anti-Mormonism still so rampant? Why is it
tolerated and encouraged by those who, again, know nothing about real Mormon
theology? If you are getting your information from anti-Mormons, it is like
asking Palestinians about the Jews.
Understanding the reality of Mormonism tells me that no lds member should ever
be elected to public office. Their allegiance is to their Church, not to their
nation. An Oath of Vengeance against the US was part of the Temple ritual for a
long time. The 'prophet' carries more weight for them than their constituents.
Not to mention belief in fairy tales and an ever changing reality. Mormons as
candidates are not worth the risk.
Here is an example of what we are taught as Mormons:"He is the most
happy and successful in life whose interests are coupled with giving assistance
to others and helping them find the way."The sign at the railroad
crossing that warns us to stop, look, and listen could be a guide for us. Stop
as we rush through life. Look for all the friendly, thoughtful, courteous
things we can do, and all the little human needs we can fill. Listen to others
and learn of their hopes and problems so that we will be able to contribute in
little ways to their success and happiness" (The Teachings of Howard W.
Hunter, p. 267).
@ sharonna- Consider the time in history the statements were made. And even now,
many churches are so corrupt! Doctrines have veared south, the love of and for
God not evident at all in the way they preach or treat others. Many churches
professing they are "Christian" would be (and probably are) an
abomination in the eyes of Jesus Christ. There are corrupt individuals in every
religion, every walk of life- religious or not. But when the leaders themselves
become selfish and haughty, the corruption has most likely trickled down to
their congregations. "By their fruit ye shal know them"@
Esquire- The MMM didn't have much to do with religion. It was motivated by fear
of a repeat of the likes of Haun's Mill and the death and destruction in
Missouri and Nauvoo. May have had something to do with the murder of church
leaders. Retribution? Who knows. True, a terrible outcome at Mountain Meadows.
There is not one member of the church trying to justify it or say it was the
right thing to do. Remember it was also the decision of a handful of men to
kill- not a directive from "organized religion" nor from God.
To Cora Smith: The Amish don't as a rule read newspapers. They just concern
themselves with other folks marginally. If we could "build a fence"
around ourselves in that manner, would we all be better off? Our great
responsibility on this earth is to learn and progress. There is much changing
that needs to take place within each of us. Our experiences eventually help us
to make better decisions, be nicer to each other and become "more
perfect" people. Or our greed and power-hungry behaviors will destroy us
and others. IT IS OUR CHOICE no matter what religion or political party we
@Wayne Rout"Obama has no moral standard so he will use Romney's
membership any way he can through his puppets."It's comments
like this that lead people to believe LDS members have a persecution complex.
There is anti-mormonism but not to the level of what some such as yourself seem
to think there is. Meanwhile you just attacked someone's character for no
obvious reason. After all, the candidate most maligned for his religion the last
few years... was Obama. I hardly think Obama would care to inflict the same sort
of nonsense he's had to deal with where 1/8 the population is thinking he's a
muslim for some reason (St. Francis of Assisi school in Indonesia is not a
madrassa...) and another large chunk thinking he's a radical black liberation
theologist when it's obvious Obama is like a large number of christians in this
nation...in that he barely ever shows up to church.
One of the problems with people's stance against Mormons is because most have
never questioned or delved into the beginnings or establishment of their own
church or beliefs:When was their church established, who was its first
leader, how are new leaders chosen, by what "authority" were they
called, how are the tithes used; Or the origin of the Holy Bible (how were
the books chosen to be included - why were other writings not included; how did
the translation come about; what is the chronology of the books vs. the size of
the books in the New Testament, etc.);What was going on with Christianity
between the time the 12 apostles were killed and Constantine "created"
the Christian Orthodox Church in 325AD (Nicene Creed established) that's a gap
of 250 years - which is longer than America has been a Nation! what was going on
during that time with "christian churches"?:What is the true
nature of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit? Most evangelical congregational
members think they are 3 separate beings, but their pastors don't think this -
they think they are part of a Trinity (all 3 in one) as according to the Nicene
@Dektol - Speaking of "fairy tales" - an oath of vengeance against the
U.S. was NEVER part of the LDS church. "We believe in ..obeying, honoring,
and sustaining the law" and always have. If your claim was true, the
Nauvoo legion would have massacred the mob who killed Joseph Smith. He went to
the Carthage jail peacefully, though he had broken no laws. A lawless mob
stormed the jail and killed Joseph Smith and his brother.
@Pete1215"What if the candidate were Mormon and believed the only
marriages that were valid were performed in LDS Temples?"That
belief has no relevance in the political scheme of things. @penny 4
thoughts"Why do evangelical churches spend so much time preaching and
teaching against Mormons instead of preaching their own religion?"They don't spend any significant amount of time on it. I bet on average most
evangelical churches have nothing more than a mere 1-2 casual 30 second
references to the LDS church a year."If you are getting your
information from anti-Mormons, it is like asking Palestinians about the Jews.
"Or consulting conservative radio hosts as to Obama's policy
positions for that matter. Now I'm sure you're thinking Obama's campaign team
would not be 100% honest and would present things that are only beneficial to
them. Okay... but that applies to religion true. Each church is biased in favor
of itself. It's certainly not a good idea to trust anti-whatever sites without
question, but it's not exactly a good idea to trust pro-whatever sites without
Also, lest we forget, anti-African-American prejudice remains unrelenting even
though the topic is mormon prejudice. But all who abide in Jesus Christ have no
room for prejudice, nor bigotry in any form. I was a Utah resident for 34 years
and many of my trusted colleagues were mormoms. Hence, who was I to be
prejudiced against mormons? Again, anyone who abides in Christ Jesus has no
room for prejudice whether the prejudice issue is described in the authors books
@Dektalsince you are so good at telling us what we believe in. Would
you be so kind as to tell us what you believe in.
... continued So, if Christians would spend some time truly understanding
the origin of their current church, they may find that the "mormons"
are definitely unique by way of origin and doctrine, but also VERY similar in
their devotion to God (Heavenly Father), His Son (Jesus Christ) and our Savior.
They will find a family centered gospel and people that want to serve and help
each other be the best person they can be; and provide humanitarian aid to all,
and comfort the sorrowful, and heal the sick.... The idea of a Christian is one
who tries to follow the example of Christ... and it's not a textbook definition
that theologians concocted to alienate, divide and create contention among God's
children. We are all brothers and sisters - there really isn't any hierarchy
except God is our Father and Christ is our older brother... the rest of us are
all brothers and sisters.
@Dektol"Understanding the reality of Mormonism tells me that no lds
member should ever be elected to public office. Their allegiance is to their
Church, not to their nation. "And yet Reid, Udall, Bennett,
Hatch, Huntsman, and Romney do not seem to bear that indication in their elected
history. Heck, I'm pretty sure you didn't even know there was a Democratic Party
Udall in the senate who is LDS. (Note: there are two Udalls in the
senate; Tom Udall of NM is LDS and a first cousin of Mark Udall of CO who is
not; incidentally Tom Udall is also a second cousin of Mike Lee of Utah who is
LDS, and yes this basically means one extended family has three senators in it).
@The Atheist Here is one for you, the Church does not need your respect or
want it, so you have nothing to worry about. I am glad you need to explain your
logical point of view of things when at the same time blatantly admit hating
others. Is hating a organized religion logical or a preference? Hate is created
through jealousy, ignorance, and truth. Being prejudiced flaws whatever logic
your trying to prove. Your biased due to the fact in what you believe, your
opinion is not fact. Every atheist I have met hates truth when they find it and
will do their best to make everyone around them as miserable as they are. Your
post proves my point you are negative person who uses logic to explain your
hatred when hate is not logical. Your free to believe in nothing thats your
choice, as for those who believe in deity or whatever they want to for that
manner have the same rights as you. If you were truly happy with life you
wouldnt waste your time trying to prove your logic to people. I dont hate you, I
only feel bad for you.
johnnylingo62 | 11:49 a.m. Oct. 12, 2011 Gray, TN So, if Christians
would spend some time truly understanding the origin of their current
church......The idea of a Christian is one who tries to follow the example of
Christ... :"@johnny, I just quoted part of what you said. But
why do you think it is important for Christians to spend time "truly
understanding" the origin of their current church if their current church
is trying to follow the example of Christ? Did Christ's message include that
people should go and do the geneology of the origins of their church, or did
Christ's message say to love one another?
@Pete "What if the candidate were Mormon and believed the only marriages
that were valid were performed in LDS Temples?"That's not even
what LDS believe. Marriages outside the temple are valid. They just end at death
rather than lasting into eternity. @ alt123 I obviously haven't
been to every evangelical church in the nation, but I've seen books on coffee
tables and in "Christian" bookstores- whole books on why Mormonism is
wrong. I have friends who have listened to entire sermons on the evils of
Mormonism. There is a huge yellow van with Anti-Mormon statements printed on the
side that drives around Nauvoo. That's a bucketload more than 1-2 casual 30
second references. Loud minority? Maybe but they are loud and obnoxious.
Honestly- what's the point? I'm puzzled. What are they so afraid of that they
need to tear down the LDS church? What is motivating them? What do they stand to
gain from it? How is the LDS church hurting them? Have they ever really studied
Mormon doctrine in depth? Have they prayed about it? Is it so impossible that
God appeared to Joseph Smith? Any more impossible than stories in the Bible?
@atl134: Why not consult Mormon historian Jan Shipps who is a non-Mormon and has
done extensive study of the Mormon culture as well? If you are looking for
non-biased information about Mormonism it is out there, but anti-Mormons rather
believe what they want to believe and still are so afraid of the Book of Mormon
that one person I know actually stomped up and down on it. Talk about lack of
respect and anti-Mormon sentiment. What would have happened if this had happened
to the Koran in public? Instead, anti-Mormons display very sacred things to
Mormons and make fun of them. I ask again, why the emphasis on all things Mormon
instead of preaching, say, Christian love for one another? I don't think you are
qualified to guesstimate how much time evangelicals spend on anti-Mormonism
unless you have attended all their churches. I have a
former-Baptist-turned-Mormon friend who told me just how pervasive this practice
is. Classes are held on it! How Christian are those who preach hatred and
prejudice? Christ never set this example. P.S. - I don't listen to conservative
radio hosts because they are so one-sided.
@penny 4 thoughts"I find it interesting that people who are
anti-Mormon get all their information from anti-Mormon sources without bothering
to study Mormonism itself."Much of the Anti-Mormon
literature is just old doctrines and words spoken from the prophets. It's
Mormon literature! It's just considered Anti-Mormon now since you don't accept
it anymore. You pick and choose what prophets words you can accept and the rest
is 'erased' from LDS history the best the church can ... You want the truth, you
can't handle the truth!"Why is anti-Mormonism still so
rampant? Why is it tolerated and encouraged by those who, again, know nothing
about real Mormon theology?"When they present to you the
'Mormon truth' you deny it as anti-mormon and disregard it, even though it's all
old Mormon doctrine before modern revelations and revisions. Maybe they know
more about the Mormon theology than you do?Our minds often only hear
what we want to hear. : (
There is a difference between personal animosity and intellectual dialogue
containing disagreement. It is true that, just as some Mormons want nothing more
than to ridicule and insult those with whom they disagree, others outside the
religion have done the same. This is wrong and always will be wrong. Just what
is an anti-Mormon? If a person with a different faith or belief is an
'anti-Mormon' for sharing his faith or beliefs with a Mormon, am I to assume
that when a Mormon shares his faith with other groups they are anti-Muslim,
anti-atheist, and so forth? Am I to assume that when the Mormon missionary comes
to the door of an atheist they too must be anti-atheist? So....any disagreeing
group is labeled an "anti-Mormon" for sharing what they believe to be
true with LDS, but LDS are not ANTI- for sharing what they believe to be true
with disagreeing groups. This is not consistent. The continuous use of the
phrase "anti-Mormon" by Mormons only inflames rather than helps people
to understand you better! The problem with many Mormons is that they incorrectly
define disagreement as hatred, bigotry, or prejudice.
@ ClarkKentYou got a point if you were a so called Christian all you need
to do is read the New Testament and do your best to follow Christ's example.
Being called Christian means nothing to me on the other hand being a disciple of
Jesus Christ has a lot more meaning.
Good article, I think the comments made by Pastor Jeffress speaks volumes about
the direction the GOP is headed. Tolerance & understanding would go a long
way in this day & age.
C'mon everyone. We all know about the elephant in the room: missionary work by
the LDS church.If Mormons didn't go around converting parishioners
from other religions, those religions wouldn't have such a distaste for
Mormons.Each pastor/minister who's lost members to the LDS church
has a great hate for Mormons. That'll continue unabated as the church won't halt
missionary work just to appease.Mormons have achieved political
office in many high levels of government. The Presidency of the U.S. isn't out
of reach.Distaste for Obama's foolery will get the southern
religious conservatives out to vote for Romney, should he get the Rebplican
To: Dektol | 11:04 a.m. Oct. 12, 2011 Powell, OH - I am interested as to where
you got your information about your comment: "An Oath of Vengeance against
the US was part of the Temple ritual for a long time". As a non-member of
the LDS faith, I have never heard such a thing and from the LDS members I know,
they show the exact opposite of this regarding our country. I have never been in
the LDS temple so my knowledge of their ceremonies is lacking. Your other
comment: "Not to mention belief in fairy tales and an ever changing
reality", is also something I am interested in and would like more clear
information as to what you are referring to. Again, the LDS members that I know
and have known in my professional life do not come across as you describe. I
would like to know if this is your biased opinion or do you have some solid
information to share.
@srwThe last I checked, Mormons didn't fly planes in to the world trade
towers. They didn't bomb American ships in Yemen either. If Catholics did
those things I wouldn't vote for them either. I can go on and on but you get the
Being anti-Mormon is not disagreeing with Mormon theology. Many, many people
disagree with our theology without becoming anti-Mormon. Being anti-Mormon is
just that: a person who actively seeks to distort and demonize our doctrines,
make fun of things that are sacred to us, and who spread false things about
Mormonism --especially when they have a personal 'issue' with the church. They
seem to go out of their way to put down Mormons and call them a 'cult' (all
religions, by definition, are a cult)and deny us the name of Christians simply
because 'they believe in a different Jesus than we do.' The Jesus we believe in
is the Biblical one, not the one that was invented several hundred years later
and was then agreed upon by a bunch of politically-minded men. By trying to
exclude Mormons from Christianity, which is defined as being a follower of
Christ, those who do this are, by their actions, anti-Mormon.
@ksampow;As a matter of fact, Joseph Smith did break a number of
laws (banking, anti-free-press).@Johnnylingo62;Delving into
any religion's origins, including Mormon origins, leads one to the conclusion
they're all simply made up by powerhungry men.@Penny 4 Thought;You'd be surprised how many of us were raised LDS. Deciding to leave
the church included a lot more study about the church than you're likely to ever
get at church. ;]
Esquire,Don't go there - it is a fruitless endeavor, ===============The Savoir himself used "fruit" as a
determining factor for finding the good. Are you one who'd throw out
a bushel of Apples if you find even one bad one in the basket? If
you were buying apples by the bushel, I'd hope you'd grab the basket that has
the least number of or no bad apples in it. I believe the LDS church
is that basket with the least number of bad apples. A common problem
today is that many people are misled into seeing a basket full of bad apples,
when the real basket of LDS apples are hidden away (for a variety of reasons).
Following Joseph Smith's martyrdom, BY introduced an oath in the endowment which
require swearing vengeance "upon this nation." It became the subject
of a United States Senate Investigation. Reed Smoot, Mormon Apostle,
Senator from Utah. In 1903 a protest was filed in the United States Senate to
have Hon. Smoot removed from office, on the grounds that he had taken this
treasonous oath in the endowment ritual. The record was published U.S.
Senate Document 486 (59th Congress, 1st Session) Proceedings Before the
Committee on Privileges and Elections of the United States Senate in the Matter
of the Protests Against the Right of Hon. Reed Smoot, a Senator from the State
of Utah, to hold his Seat . 4 vols .+1 vol. index] (Washington: Government
Printing Office, 1906) The wording was as follows "You and each
of you do covenant and promise that you will pray and never cease to pray to
Almighty God to avenge the blood of the prophets upon this nation, and that you
will teach the same to your children and to your children's children unto the
third and fourth generation." This remained a part of the temple rituals
until February 15, 1927.
The anti-mormon sentiment is really a much smaller problem than it is made out
to be.It took a Mormon running for President for people to even care
one way or another. Everyone is getting bent out of shape over
nothing.This nation is facing many more severe problems and here is
the government and media again trying to distract the people with social
issues.Wake up folks! America is going to hell in a handbasket and
people want to argue about God, Guns and Gay Marriage.
Ok a few points in my humble opinion:Missionaries. Ok.. so what?
They are very polite and do not harass you. Oh, I am sorry is opening the door
and saying no thank you or being polite in return that difficult? If I am going
to base my opinion on the LDS church on them, well, then I am going to think
that all members of the LDS are polite and courteous. Church and
Politics: Religion has always been involved with politics regardless of any
other laws and what have you. IF people are spouting negativity about a faith
for the sole reason that presidential candidates are in the national eye, then
that just shows the ignorance of the people.Those that say Mormons
are not Christian? Define what is then. A belief in Jesus? Frankly I find
Mormons more Christian than most. Prop 8 or whatever it was called?
I think the main issue was the term "Marriage" not rights or civil
unions. In other words... This is nothing new.
Utes21,"the Church does not need your respect or want it, so
you have nothing to worry about"Why do missionaries come
knocking on my door?"Is hating a organized religion logical or
a preference? Hate is created through jealousy, ignorance, and truth."Huh?What I dislike (hate?) about the LDS Church is its
elitism, arrogance and imperialism.The Church and its members
believe and act as if they are "the one and only true and living Church on
the face of the earth" (D&C 1:30) and treat all other religions as
"abominations" and "all corrupt" (JS History) and "of
the devil"."Behold there are save two churches only; the
one is the Church of the Lamb of God and the other is the church of the
devil" (1 Nephi 14:10)I am not like any atheist you have ever
met. What someone does NOT believe can never be an indication of what they are
like."If you were truly happy with life you wouldnt waste your
time trying to prove your logic to people."By that logic, if
Mormons were truly happy, they would not try to convert anyone else. Why are you
The LDS church is built on the foundation of a man. That man is Joseph Smith.
He is revered as much as and talked about as much if not more in monthly
testimony meetings as Jesus Christ is. Does that make the LDS
church a cult? Not necessarily. The foundation of the LDS Church
isn't Christ. Christ the foundation of the Methodists, Baptists, Catholics and
other protestant faiths. The foundation of the LDS Church is the Book of
Mormon, Joseph Smith seeing God and Jesus Christ, a prophet who is God's
mouthpiece today and temple ordinances necessary for salvation. Salvation in
the Mormon vernacular is the Celestial Kingdom and the highest level of the
Celestial Kingdom at that. You have to do all the work and then Christ may let
you in. What is most important though isn't Christ's grace, but YOUR works.
Anything less and you won't be saved and be in God's presence after death and a
resurrection of your body. For "mainstream" Christianity,
all you need is to believe in Christ.By the way, the LDS Church is a
We all need to be very concerned about what is happening in America. All of this
is precisely why our consitution says that politics and religion need to stay
out of each others business."When Fascism comes to America it
will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross". Sinclair LewisImagine there's no Heaven It's easy if you try No hell below us
Above us only sky Imagine all the people Living for today Imagine there's no countries It isn't hard to do Nothing to
kill or die for And no religion too Imagine all the people Living life in peace You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm
not the only one I hope someday you'll join us And the world will be
as one John Lennon RIPImagine no possessions I
wonder if you can No need for greed or hunger A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people Sharing all the world You may say
that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday you'll
join us And the world will live as one
To The Deuce:I can factually answer your questions about temple
endowment changes, but they won't pass censors. You have to go to sources of
credible former Mormon scholars. I was an active LDS for 35 years, 7th
generation, sealed in temple for 14 years. In 1991 all former so-called
"blood oaths" were omitted. They were similar in content to Masonic
oaths. Of course, as an LDS woman, I never knew (or cared) about this. This subject must be handled with absolute respect for the members of
the church's most sacred ordinances. Neither would respectful persons
trivialize Catholic mass or Muslim prayers in a public/secular forum. We do not
show temple garments or reveal grips and endowment oaths in the classes we teach
on the theological differences between Christian denominations at our (So.
Baptist) church. I can tell you that without exception, in the 18+
years we have taught Bible studies at our church on this topic, everyone comes
with a sincere interest in LDS teachings and only love and respect for their
Mormon friends. We have LDS Institute directors, missionaries and elders who
share with our classes to keep doctrinal accuracy. Akways good friendships and
@ RanchHandYeah and then there is the majority who were raised LDS who
gain a testimony of truthfulness of the Book of Mormon and remain faithful
members their entire lives. I mean studying all the great stuff thats on the
internet thats created by men and women like you, will further your
understanding right? I mean you lived back during the restoration and you know
from fifth hand accounts whats true and not. I mean people dont make up stuff
because of their bitterness and hatred towards the church. We need to start
trusting people like you because you read up on the treasure huntin, womanizin,
con artist ol Joe Smith was. We can all trust ranch hands he has done his
research online and he has had read pamphlets!
@sharrona"Actually Mormonism is anti-Christian. A short
list:JS said, all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that
those professors were corrupt(JS History 1:19)"The word
"creeds" is referring to traditional, incorrect beliefs of men (such
as Trinity). It is NOT saying that JS or Mormons are anti-Christian, nor does it
say that Mormon's view of all other Christian beliefs as corrupt. And
"those professors" refers to the professors in JS's day that were
actually rather unkind to JS. Again, it does NOT say that JS or Mormons are
anti-Christian or that the Christian ministers of today are viewed by Mormons as
corrupt. The other statements from the JoD are NOT doctrine and were the
opinions of a few men of the day. Don't try to exclude the many favorable
opinions of Mormons and Mormon leaders TODAY towards Christians and then include
a few, isolated, non-doctrine opinions of decades ago. That is a flawed
@aumacoma,I'd give you a million recommendations If I could. If
everyone took Lennon's words literally and gave that song a shot in their daily
lives ... wouldn't the world be a wonderful place?
@Thinkman:"The LDS church is built on the foundation of a man.
That man is Joseph Smith."The LDS Church is built upon Christ
as the chief cornerstone... as restored by a man, said Smith."He is revered as much as and talked about as much if not more in monthly
testimony meetings as Jesus Christ is."Probably revered similar
to Moses by the Old Testament Jews."The foundation of the LDS
Church isn't Christ."How so? The word 'Christ' is in the name.
All prayers are offered in the name of Jesus Christ."Christ
the foundation of the Methodists, Baptists, Catholics and other protestant
faiths."Not so. The foundation of the Methodist Church is John
and Charles Wesley. The foundation of the Baptists is John the Baptist. The
foundation of the Catholics is the Pope. The foundation of Jehovah's Witnesses
is Charles Taze Russell. The foundation of Christian Science is Mary Baker
Eddy. Etc., etc."For 'mainstream' Christianity, all you need
is to believe in Christ."The Bible says: 'faith (belief)
without works is dead.' So, if you just believe, you're dead.
HAH!!! I've had one continuous prejudice my entire life: that of a non-mormon
in Utah. And don't waste your time telling me how accepting you all are.
Expect to be ridiculed when you're ridiculous.
Alright. Let's address the elephant in the room. I've read through a lot of
these comments and still have not seen this subject brought up. If it has I
apologize, but I believe the attacks on Mitt Romney or John Huntsman, because of
them being a Mormon, is nothing more than the pastor protecting his INCOME. In
the LDS church, the lay leadership of the church does not get paid. However, the
Pastor Jeffress and others denounce Mormonism in order to protect their income
generated from their congregations. It's called priest-crafts. Nothing more than
protecting the old wallet. If he sees the LDS Church as a threat to his
congregation (therefore his livelihood) it may explain his throwing around the
negative words of "cult" and non-christian. Nothing more than a basic
non-religious business decision driven by greed.
Re: Utes fan, Don't try to exclude the many favorable opinions of Mormons and
Mormon leaders TODAY towards Christians and then include a few, isolated,
non-doctrine opinions of decades ago. That is a flawed approach. Wrong.*Brigham Young and John Taylor were Mormon Prophets and anti-Christian. They
cannot separate themselves from the concept in (1 Nephi 14:10) Behold there are
save two churches only, the one is the church of the lamb, and the other is the
church of the devil ;wherefore whoso belongeth not to the church of the lamb of
God belongeth to the great church, which is the mother of abomination and she is
the whore of all the earth.Also The mocking of non-Mormon preachers
caused so much criticism that the Mormon leaders determined God wanted this
sacred portion removed. It was on 4/10/1990.
First of all; the folks who are complaining about Romney's religious faith need
to be kicked out of this country. CHURCH AND STATE ARE SEPERATE IN THIS
COUNTRY and it has no place in politics or the running of the Government. I
would hope that if Romney is elected he will do as John F. Kennedy did and not
allow his faith to dictate his actions OR work in the Government and that means
at times going against the tenants of his faith in a secular enviroment to pass
laws et al that are in the best interest of the United States irregardless of
the faith of its citizens or the lack of. This could, mean for instance, leaving
Roe vs. Wade in place, approving equal rights bills that allow anyone to marry
whom they please without regards to religion or gender or sexual orientation.
Religous institutions have no right to tell the Government what its laws will or
will not be and the same goes to Government inerference into Church
affairs--within the bounds of Civil Law. DOWN WITH BIGOTRY AND SO CALLED
CHRISTIANS who are little more that hypocrits.
Stop playing the victim card, and get religion right out of politics. It should
be as repulsive to think of a candidates' religion as it is of their sex lives.
ksampow - The quote referred to about vengence agains the U.S. was a part of the
temple ceremony prior to 1980. It is not sacred anymore because the church
removed it. You can easily find the references to it, or just ask an old member
of the church - "You and each of you do covenant and promise
that you will pray, and never cease to pray, Almighty God to avenge the blood of
the prophets upon this nation, and that you will teach the same to your children
and your children's children unto the third and fourth generations."You see if you do just a little research you will find it, and I am
surprised many members have no idea that this was in the ceremony, as well as
the slashing of throats sign during it as well. I guess the revelation changed
and all of the sudden these things were removed from the ceremony?
Some statements by LDS apostles and prophets:"The gates of hell
have prevailed and will continue to prevail over the Catholic Mother of Harlots,
and over all her Protestant Daughters; . . . the apostate Catholic church, with
all her popes and bishops, together with all her harlot daughters shall be
hurled down to hell." -Orson Pratt"Every spirit that
confesses that Joseph Smith is a Prophet, that he lived and died a Prophet and
that the Book of Mormon is true, is of God, and every spirit that does not is of
anti-Christ." -Brigham Young"If Joseph Smith was verily a
prophet, and if he told the truth. . . . No man can reject that testimony
without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the
kingdom of God." -Joseph Fielding Smith"[F]or they were
all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an
abomination in his sight; that those professors were all corrupt; that: 'they
draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach
for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny
the power thereof.'" -Joseph Smith
@ Speed_Altitude - 5:05pm Oct 12I addressed the elephant in my
12:58pm Oct 12 post.Thanks for adding to it.
Hey thinkman,I just want to correct you on some of your miss conceptions.
First off LDS members do have a deep devotion towards Joseph Smith because we
believe that through him the Lord restored his church. But that by no means does
not mean we believe in him as a Deity. If you refere to The 13 Articles of Faith
you will find that the very frist one says "We beleive in God the Eternal
Father and in His Son Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. Know where will you
find we beleive in Joseph Smith. We do believe he was a prophet of God and that
through him the gospel of Jesus Christ was restored. This was done because many
of the plain and simple truths of the gospel were lost over time due to the
wickedness of mankind. LDS members only have faith in God our Eternal Father and
His Son Jesus Christ. None else. For it through our Savior Jesus Christ whom the
Father sent, that man can be saved. Ask any LDS and they will testify of these
The Atheist,"By that logic, if Mormons were truly happy they
would not try to convert anyone else. Why are you so miserable."On the contrary, Mormons as a whole are a happy people who love the Lord and
enjoy what life has to offer. The reason we do missionary work and try to
convert others is because of the joy and happiness the gosple brings to our life
and we want to share that feeling with the world. If you knew as we do that
there is a God in Heaven who loves you and is all knowing and seeing. Who cares
about you individually and wants to be a part of your life. That he sent his Son
Jesus Christ to earth to atone for yours and my sins that we might have the
oppertunity to return and live with Heavenly Father again. Don't you think that
news would bring great happiness to all of Heavenly Fathers children. We do.
That is why we go around doing missionary work, to bring this joyful news to
Most of the LDS I know are open, loving people that get along with people of all
faiths. There are some however that complain about tolerance but cannot stand
any slight against the LDS Church.DO NOT dish out what you can't
take, in fact, don't dish out any ill will if you are LDS. I teach my family
that as LDS people and people of faith we must treat all others kindly, those
with faith and those who chose not to. I encourage my fellow LDS to do that
same and right any wrong you see other LDS people doing.I can point
out one right away. I know some parents who will let their children only play
with other LDS Children. This is not right, base it on the character of the
friend. I grew up with LDS kids whose parents had this rule. Some of the LDS
kids they let their kids play with were AWFUL kids who know how to act on
Sundays and were rotten the rest of the week. Some of the best behaved kids I
knew were not LDS.
@ Petra (6:27 p 10/11)Really? Maybe the "other" board is
providing balance? It could be as Pagan @ 9:19 has implied this outlet creates
the sensationalism?We all know what the end product of
sensationalism is. This way majority demographc group gets to get on their moral
high horse and play the victim; both of which they do so well.re:
majmajor | 6:35 p.m. Oct. 11, 2011I don't disagree. Maybe, its just
that humanity is psychologically stuck in Jr High where those perceived as
different are shunned.
The last thing Mormons need is a martyr complex.
Whether or not you agree with the teachings of the LDS Church, or whether or not
those teachings were restored as a pure return to the Saviors Christianity that
had been hijacked, or at the very least, had veered off course, are not the
issue. The issue is whether or not these followers and ashearants are
Christians. There really is no other way around it. This is The Church of Jesus
Christ. It is not the Church of Mormon, or the Church of Joseph Smith. It is The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Now as members of this
Church, we need to be more friendly and outgoing, and less mean. As we share our
testimonies of this Good News with our neighbors, please be friends whether or
not they likewise gain their own testimonies. DO not shun these wonderful
non-members. There is already enough of that going around and we know how that
"This anti-Mormon bias is even higher statistically among Democrats than it
is among Republicans" I doubt highly this is true. Ive live in
Massachusetts and we are literally run by the Democratic Party, and Romney was
elected Governor a few years back, we now have a black governor and many gay
elected officials, from all religious backgrounds. That cannot be said for any
more "conservative" or "Red" state in the USA.
Brahmabull: I hate to differ with you on any part of the Temple ordinances.
The reason they were removed is that they had little to do with the person's
actual salvation. By the way Sharrona the Temple Endowment ordinances didn't
change until the early 1990s. They were removed for no other reason than for
the sake of time. The endowment session was taking up to two hours to complete.
After these were removed it dropped it down to 1 1/2 hours. It has even
changed a little more to be more acceptable to those with disabilities.Just because it was dropped from the ordinance does not MEAN it isn't still
sacred. It is and shouldn't be discussed outside of the Temple. If you are
discussing it as has been done then you are mocking God and the temple ordinance
Mormons, being anti civil rights, might have something to do with it. Also
ignoring tough issues in it past only fuels the so-called "anti" fire.
Estoy sorprendido que configuren a la Iglesia, en terminos de minoria, con el
Islamismo; La Iglesia de Jesucristo, no tiene nada que ver con los Musulmanes ni
el Islamismo; es increible el preconcepto de la sociedad Norteamericana para con
los Mormones; si llaman Culto a la religion centrada en una Persona, como queda
El Catolicismo, con la figura de la Virgen Maria como simbolo de adoracion ?.
Bill in Nebraska,The temple ordinances have been changed multiple
times even prior to the 1990 major change.There is a reason why
there have been multiple changes to LDS church doctrines and ordinances and that
reason it seems is to better "fit-in" to the mainstream of society and
to appeal to a wider audience to gain more converts.These changes
are well-documented in the BYU Harold B Lee library which is where I found out
about them in 1992 while doing a senior paper on religious freedom as a
foundational reason for the founding the USA. You likely can find the original
ordinances changes(particularly the endowment and initiatory ordinances) by
doing some searches on the internet.There was also a major change in
2005 that I witnessed in addition to the 1990 change. These changes were made
it seems to take away some of the "harsher" and more intrusive actions
that the pre-1990 endowment ordinance and pre-2005 initiatory ordinances
contained. The changes make the temple to be more mainstream and seem less
ritualistic or "weird" in the eyes of the world.If the LDS
church is "true", why the need for changes?
Dektol, from Powell,OH; 11:04am Oct 12,2011. I have been amemeber of the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints all my life. I was baptised a member many
years ago, back when they baptised children in the temple at the age of eight. I
have seen different changes in the temple ceremonies and many years of temple
attendance. NEVER has there ever been a denoucement of the US government in the
ceremony or any government. Government has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the
temple.If you think you know so much, read the Articles of Faith. They
will tell you exactly what we believe. Read all the lies you want but don't tell
me what goes on in the temple, I work there!
ill - "The reason they were removed is that they had little to
do with the person's actual salvation"So why would something
that had nothing to do with our salvation be in there in the first place? And I
beg to differ, as you are not qualified to give the reasoning behind why they
were removed, unless you have a quote/opinion of a general authority backing
that up"They were removed for no other reason than for the sake
of time."So first you said they were removed because they had nothing
to do with salvation, now you say it was a time thing. So to trim a whole 1/2
hour off of the endowment they removed an essential part of it?? The quote I
gave only took about 10 seconds to repeat, and the slashing of the throat things
- well we know it wasn't for the "sake of time" that it was removed.
Come on Bill, you honestly think that is a reasonable explanation. So why would
god reveal a certain endowment ceremony first, then change it to make it faster
by removing things HE put in it only a few years before?? Right.....
To Brahmabull and Thinkman: Again I will not go into great detail here about
the changes. The time was to allow the work to go faster and thus the changes.
They removed those items that are not necessary for salvation. If you care to
listen to the ordinances as they are now done you will find that the so called
penalties and such are still RELEVANT.
@ Bill in NebraskaStop making excuses for why the Church removes certain
ordinances and why not. This is the same reason the church now allows blacks to
serve as priesthood holders, the same reason the LDS church is no longer a
polygamists church and the same reason we don't talk about them. Because in the
21st century its a Politically correct Church plain and simple. Joseph Smith
wouldn't even be allowed to hold a temple recommend because he drank alcohol and
Porter Rockwell was his bar tender in the mansion house. Truth hurts I know
@Brahmabull and Thinkman: While your questions and concerns might be relevant to
you (both Non-LDS) they are irrelevant to salvation. The understanding about
continuing revelation is a core belief of LDS.Would both of you say
the the New Testament is irrelevant because it trumps the Old Testament? There
are many who didn't agree with the "changes" made by Christ and ended
up killing Him because they wanted to keep the status quo.@Ranch:
Everything is always about your choice to leave the LDS church to more fully
embrace your homosexuality. Because the LDS church doesn't accept your chosen
behavior doesn't mean it is prejudice or bigoted. btw, the 2 words are not
interchangeable.Many on here just don't get it and probably never
will. LDS folks don't care if you disagree with our doctrines and quite frankly,
I don't care if you don't include me in your man-made philosophy of who is or
isn't a Christian. You need to learn how to differentiate your
church principles/doctrines from what a Christian really is.Someone
who follows Christ is a Christian.
cont'd. I know who Christ is and I know what His teachings are. I
accept Christ as my Savior and through Him I can return and live with Him and
God again.Those who cry that the Book of Mormon is
"adding" to the Bible have no understanding of how the Bible was put
together. Those who cry that we have a Bible and don't need anything
else are telling God that He can't talk to us again like in times past. Who are
YOU to tell God that He can't do something if He so chooses. And can you sight
the verse in the Bible that supports your claim?To those who claim
the Trinity is Biblical and is like 3 forms of water, please answer these
questions:Did Christ rise with a body of flesh and bone when He was
resurrected? If so, does He still have that body? If not, where did it go?Why was the resurrection so important and why do we get a body, forever,
and God doesn't?What will God look like when you get to heaven? How
do you know?That's a good start....
@ O'really, as a descendent of John D. Lee, I will say that religion was a
factor in MMM. There was no distinction between church, society and state in
19th Century Utah. Besides, your comment really misses the point of the
discussion and is really a rationalization.
@ LDSareChristians, you totally missed the point. My point was just because
there are some bad apples in every religion does not mean that the entire
religion should be condemned. KM condemned an entire faith because of the
actions of a few, which is wrong. Knee-jerk reactions to discussions about the
Church often lead to irrational comments.
@Bill in Nebraska,You got owned. Your wrong, Brahma's right. @Charles,"I know who Christ is and I know what His
teachings are."You know him? You've met him personally?
What's he look like? What does he believe in? He told you these things and
what he teaches?"I accept Christ as my Savior and through Him I
can return and live with Him and God again."What did he save
you from? Why do you want to live with him and God after you die? How do you
know that's possible? Return and live with him? So you've lived with (and met)
Jesus Christ before?Charles, If what you're saying is true than you
are the most important person in the world right now. Why would you ever follow
Joseph Smith, a church, or any profit if you already have the contact and know
the teachings?I'm in AWE right now that we have someone in here in
contact with Jesus!
@Charles, I presume you do not believe that LDS are the only group of religious
people on the earth that God currently communicates with. Please say it isn't
@ludwig: You say church and state are separate entities. That's a great concept,
but a person of faith is always going to let that faith influence their
decisions... whether they admit it or not.I invite you to examine
Utah's alcohol laws. Prime example for you.
@ClarkKent: What do you mean by communicate? Not knowing how you would answer
that question I'll give a few thoughts towards it.I believe that God
communicates with any individual on the planet who sincerely seeks Him.
Thoughts, impressions, influence of the Holy Ghost are different ways He has
communicated with me.I also believe that God has a prophet on the
earth today, just like Moses, Adam, Noah and the others. I believe that God
communicates to the world through His chosen prophet, Thomas Monson just like He
did in previous dispensations.Do I believe that the head of any
other church/religion is a prophet and can speak for God to the whole world?
Nope.@DeltaFoxtrot: there is no such thing as separation of church
and state. Every individual who has a political opinion brings their own belief
structure to the table. It's impossible to leave it out of it. Atheists
included.State/local laws are passed based on the will of the people
in those areas. There are 50 states. If you want more liberal drinking laws, you
are free to move to a city/state that agrees with your position. Or just
@Charles: Utah's drinking laws are based upon the will of the Church, and are
hampering economic development. Nobody listens to the people anymore.
To LaValfre: No I'm not owned and I agree with everything @Charles said. I
also know that President Thomas S Monson is the Lord's mouthpiece here on Earth
and anything that comes from that man to us (the world) is from God. It doesn't
matter whether God said says it himself, his son says it or his servants it is
still the same voice whether the Father says it or not. You don't have to
believe it but it is true.If Joseph Smith was alive today he would
have a temple recommend because he would follow the same criteria today as it
was. You're basing something on 150 years ago not what is current. Both Joseph
Smith and Porter would be vigilant members of the Church. They are currently on
the otherside of the veil teaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the dead as is
Brigham Young, Adam, Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Isaiah, and all the prophets from
the beginning.My testimony and that of @Charles will be used against
you at the judgement seat. That I know and have firm conviction of.
"Stop playing the victim card, and get religion right out of
politics." And that would include islam and atheism. If we're
going to keep religion out of politics, keep it all out.
Atheism is not religion.
Atheism is not just the lack of belief in a god, but the assertion about the
non-existence of any gods, spirits, or divine or supernatural beings. Atheists
in this sense are metaphysical naturalists, they DO follow a religion.Atheism shouldnt be taught or enforced in settings where other religions are
banned and shouldnt be favoured by laws which imply a religiously neutral
I'm so tired of the, "are Mormons Christians or Cultists" debate!
Clearly traditional "Christians" place greater worth on their Nicene,
Apostolic, Athanasian, and other creeds, than they do on any of the words spoken
by the Christ. Therefore, from now on, I will be referring to Catholics,
Protestants and Orthodox believers as "Creedists" and NOT as
Bill: your continuous cirles of logic confuse me. In one breath you say things
like:"anything that comes from that man to us (the world) is
from God. It doesn't matter whether God said says it himself, his son says it or
his servants it is still the same voice whether the Father says it or
not."so you just said that ANYTHING that comes from the prophet
is the word of god. Then in another breath, when I present something from a
prophet that conflicts what you say, you give it the old "that was
opinion" line. So which is it, bill?? You contradict yourself by the things
you say, you twist your words, you only use prophets quotes when it benefits
you, and when it doesn't it is opinion. It doesn't make sense. Then you say: "Both Joseph Smith and Porter would be vigilant members of the
Church. They are currently on the otherside of the veil teaching the Gospel of
Jesus Christ to the dead" As if you somehow know what they are
doing on the other side, since Porter Rockwell was fond of drinking you seem to
think he is righetous still?? Doesn't make sense.
I believe that evangelicals, in general, are Christian, and I love them. Sadly, some people are admittedly trained to post anti-Mormon propaganda
on the DN and elsewhere, justifying hatred. There are also many
anti-Mormon websites claiming to teach us what Mitt Romney and all Mormons
"really believe." Several of these quote Orson Pratt on Babylon
(editing and leaving out his reference to John). Ive oft discussed the
semi-quotes posted by DN Evangelicals and anti-Mormon gay Atheists etc (creed
tortures etc)but not the Pratt quote. Saying Mitt and Mormons
believe something because someone LDS (including O.Pratt, BY etc) said it is as
unfair as saying present day Mormons all believe Gentiles are unclean because
their early Prophet, Peter believed it (before his vision); that all Protestants
"really believe" Catholicism is an "abomination" and
"blasphemy," "works" centered, etc because Luther said it;
that all Protestants hate Jews and LDS because they raped and sought
extermination, etc. Many opinions are given, and LDS Presidents have
clarified that the Abominable Church is not Catholics and Protestants. The BofM
definition is those torturing, attacking, etc the Saints. It could be some
Atheists, some gays, some Catholics, some Mormonsetc.
There are many ways to justify hate. Some gays use prop08, but some gays were
protesting against LDS when I was a kid, and I felt the hatred, and most
Americans oppose gay marriage, but don't reap the hate. Others like
to dig up quotes from early leaders (not usually Paul, Peter etc, but later
early leaders, such as Orson Pratt.)Almost every later leader has
spoken words like these by Joseph Fielding Smith:It makes no
difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in
conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the
teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square
with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We
have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks... If Joseph
Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations,
then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that
which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should
If what Mormons "really believe" is found anywhere, it is found in the
Book of Mormon: "12 And whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do
good is of me; for good cometh of none save it be of me. I am the same that
leadeth men to all good"
If you think that's bigotry, speak to my gay friends that would like to get
Castle path,Please tell me what I believe about Santa, Bigfoot,
elves, and leprechauns while you are at it.Why are religionists so
presumptuous?MY atheism IS simply a lack of any belief in any God's.
MY atheism IS NOT merely naturalism.You are not a spokesperson for
atheism, so you cannot say anything legitimate about atheism. Indeed, atheism
has NO authorized spokesperson.People who try to make atheism into a
religion are the worst kind of bigots, stereotyping others based on what they DO
NOT believe. That is the most ridiculous thing anyone can do.Shall
we call you a member of a "religion" based on the fact that you do NOT
believe in the flying spaghetti monster!?
Brahmabull: You are totally wrong. I have never stated that it is opinion
however, it is quite well noted that the Journal of Discourses that many use as
words from the prophets and others is SECOND HAND KNOWLEDGE. Secondly, you have
already become judge, jury and executioner for Porter Rockwell. How can you
justify that since you were not living at the time he lived and have nothing to
go on except second hand knowledge. What I have quoted most often has come from
Talks during gneral conference, ENSIGN articles and the such. Only on one
occassion have I used to Journal of Discourses as a point of reference. It was
Idaho Coug who has insinuated that it is opinion not revelation. I only stated
to him that he was taking it solely as opinion. You on many occassions always
state it as opinion. I have used Mormon Doctrine as a point of reference when
it coincides with the doctrine taught in the Priesthood, Relief Society, Sunday
School and by the Missionaries. You however, constantly badger others for their
use and then cite a interview by President Hinkley.I have yet to
find your quote by him anywhere.
Bill - so you are saying that everything that a prophet says is doctrine then
right?? So it was doctrine when Wilford Woodruff stated that "Many sitting
in the congregation today will stand in the flesh when the Lord Jesus Christ
visits the Zion of God here in the mountains of Israel." ?The
journal of discourses is only as much second hand knowledge as any other source.
Are you aware that during the talks they had a scribe record exactly what the
prophets and apostles said?? That is as reliable as any other source that you
can come up with. You state that you cannot find the transcript of
President Hinckley saying that polygamy is not doctrinal. Well if you can't find
it, you aren't looking very hard. Which doesn't surprise me.As far
as Rockwell goes, I was only saying what I said because apparantly you have
judged him as well - stating he was righteous enough in this life to be able to
preach the gospel to others in the spirit world. You did not walk the earth with
him either, that is why I found your statement rediculous. You have only second
hand knowledge of him as well....
I join with @Charles in the assertion that it is possible to communicate with
and personally know Jesus Christ. He is not alone in this.
@ Brahmabull: Why are you arguing the infallibility of the Journal of
Discourses? Do you really believe in it that much? Do you wish that Latter-day
Saints regarded the J of D as infallible? Are you disappointed that we don't?
It seems very important to you that we accept it that way.You ought
to know that "everything the prophet says" has not been accepted as
doctrinal since the days of Joseph Smith. Joseph himself tried to convince
people that everything he said was not to be accepted as doctrine.Feel free to disbelieve it all if you want. Why waste your time arguing with
us about what Latter-day Saints believe? We have a well-established line of
authority that we follow; we are consistently taught the doctrines of the
Church; we believe it. You don't; you therefore needn't worry about it unless
you have ulterior motives.
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.""Do unto
others as you would have them do unto you."Whether you're
religious or not, Mormon or not, these are good sayings to live by.Many of those on both sides of this debate have not been living up to either
of these rules, laws, policies, suggestions, or whatever you want to call them.
@Jeff..... Charles comments are hardly unique to our faith. We are not as
different from other faiths as we like to think. Yes, there are some very
unique attributes to our faith, but there are far more areas we have in common.
And we are hardly alone in being judged of other Christian faiths. Even
Evangelicals have plenty who would not vote for them purely driven by their
faith. People judging others for what ever reason has been around
for a really long time. The level of prejudice we face today is a far cry from
that which our ancestors suffered. Our protestations I think would find a hard
time receiving much sympathy from those who came before us. We enjoy a seat at
the table in most every aspects of life today. We live in a time we should be
most thankful that we enjoy such freedoms to practice out faith as we like, and
when we like. We have fellow believers in positions of leadership in almost
every aspect of our society. Lets not get all caught up in the
ignorance of a few.
Penny 4 your thoughts and MunkI would like to define a Christian to
you. Holy Bible. Ephesians 2: 5-8 By grace are ye saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves: it is a gift of God.
Brahmabull, "anything that comes from that man to us (the world) is from
God."He did not say everything that he says is from God. Everything
that he announces to the world as a whole, is from god. It isn't doctrine when
he says "Pass the salt." at the dinner table.
With all due respect to anyone reading this, I could not read the article
because the title was too over-the-top. I could not look around me at all the
prejudice still in the world--and among our own people, and argue that
anti-Mormonism is the prejudice of our age? Is anyone seriously going to argue
such a point? The title speaks of the ego-centrism, self-importance, and
increasing defensiveness I am witnessing among so many of my LDS loved ones and
friends. Really! Really, is this title to be taken seriously, never mind what
the article may say? If we believe this title (our own self-described
persecution) as Mormons, we need to get out of the salt bottle more and really
become the salt of the earth! We are spending way too much time in our own
bottle! Just saying....let's get over ourselves and just be who we are. Let our
example of love shout louder than the ignorance of any critic! Seriously! Let's
get over ourselves!