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Mormon Church applauds media 'watchdogs'

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  • davedave Sandy, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 3:52 p.m.

    It will be interesting to see what happens to the church's standing on gays in the church. We accept all people in the church as long as they hold to our same standards, i.e. no premarital sex. With the advent of gay marriage being legal in some states like New York does the stance remain the same. Hence hypothetically speaking two gay men or women could legally get married never having sex before are they still considered in good standing with the church? The church may have to rethink how it states its stance on gays in the church.

  • guswetrust Cebterville, Utah
    Sept. 10, 2011 4:46 p.m.

    As a mormon, but I accept anyone no matter race, religion, sex preference as long as they are good people. (which means they are not murderers, child sex predators, sells or does drugs.) But I admit, I am almost embarrassed to tell non members I am LDS because of all the FLDS contoversy, Warren Jeffs, etc. Because my family and friends in other states that are not members do not understand that we are different than FLDS. We don't have beds in our temples, yet we have temples. It is just hard to help them understand this.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 8:00 p.m.

    "Mormons don't see Jesus Christ for who Jesus Christ really is. That's the big issue. They see him as a prophet, not the only begotten Son of God."

    I guess they don't know that the Roman Empire persecuted the persons we read of in the Bible, they hijacked Christianity, then held a meeting in Nicea to 'settle' the QUESTION of the trinity once and for all. Then Rome made this law and persecuted other CHRISTIANS believing in God the Father and His son, Jesus Christ.

    -------

    I have a question for these 'pretend Christians' who spend their time hating us, against what Jesus Christ actually taught (Perhaps they overlooked the bit about 'loving thy neighbor', or maybe they think that by hating us they actually love us... yeah, whatever).

    How does a counsel of men decide whether God and Jesus Christ are separate beings? I guess we can vote on what color of eyes He has too, right?

    All evangelicals who criticize us ought to tour Temple Square, see the Christus with holes in His hands from the nails, then actually ask US what we believe, rather than assume they know our thoughts better than we do.

  • Henry Drummond San Jose, CA
    Sept. 10, 2011 8:02 p.m.

    I'm not LDS but I have watched this back and forth for years. I think the LDS people do the right thing when they simply say what they believe rather than worrying about the media. Eventually the press gets a better balance in their reporting. Could that be happening here?

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 8:09 p.m.

    Henry,

    I personally believe that the press in general is getting worse at accurately reporting what the LDS Church and its members believe. This is why I think it's important to praise when people get it right.

    -

    Correction on my previous comment. When I say 'Evangelicals' I do not mean all of them, only the ones who fight us for our beliefs, for beliefs in the Bible, and for the same things that even those like Paul died preaching.

  • Petra Sanpete County, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 8:13 p.m.

    Not too long ago, a DN editor posed a question about whether or not the future of journalism will be in writing stories with intentional bias. This is a very good example of what could also happen - that, where possible, journalists fact-check their source quotes and "facts" to remove potential bias born of falsehood. It takes time and is sometimes difficult to do (especially on deadline), but we would all be better served if we knew fact and if that fact was placed within a story (as in this story's examples), not as a later "fact-checker" story which many do not read.

    While intentionally biased journalism might very well and accurately represent one side of a story (as long as we all understand it's written with intentional bias), fact-checking any and all stories and their sources would contribute immensely towards educating this country as to the actual facts surrounding bias.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Sept. 10, 2011 8:15 p.m.

    To davedave: The stance I believe will not change. It has been the same stance from the foundation of the Church. All we have to do is to continue to gain a great understanding of, THE FAMILY, A PROCLAMATION TO THE WORLD. This came out in 1995 years before the so called gay movement took hold. The Church has stood tall in all states where the vote to amend state constitutions has been given to the voter. In each it has won with a 30-0 stand. Only in states where it has been done by the courts or legislature has it been given.

    Don't expect this stand to change.

  • BostonTerry Merrimack, NH
    Sept. 10, 2011 8:28 p.m.

    The LDS Church is to Protestants what Protestants were to the established Catholic Church during the reformation.

    The established political and religious leaders of that day persecuted, ridiculed and minimalized reformation leaders like Martin Luther. They mocked him to be mentally ill. Mormons are experiencing a similar situation.

    When a Protestant tells me today I'm not a Christian I correct them by saying "I am very difinatly a Christian. I'm just not Catholic or Protestant."

  • Utes Fan Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 9:14 p.m.

    "the reporter quotes a South Carolina Republican leader, who said that "Mormons don't see Jesus Christ for who Jesus Christ really is. That's the big issue. They see him as a prophet"

    The Republican leader doesn't know the facts.

    From The Living Christ:
    "He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. "All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made" (John 1:3)."

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 9:45 p.m.

    @A voice of reason
    "How does a counsel of men decide whether God and Jesus Christ are separate beings? "

    Because that is what they interpreted the scriptures to be suggesting. The LDS church views it differently. Both sides of the trinity doctrine issue believe that their view is what the Bible suggests to be the case.

    @davedave
    " With the advent of gay marriage being legal in some states like New York does the stance remain the same."

    The church stance is "no sex before marriage" and since the church defines marriage as man-woman only, regardless of what state law is that does not affect the church stance. I do think we will see the church get way less active in Prop-8 type instances though but it's not going to allow gay marriage or same-sex... sex during my lifetime.

  • davedave Sandy, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 9:50 p.m.

    To Bill in Nebraska:

    I agree with you. I guess my point is to clarify it's statement in that we expect all members to live up to the standards of the church. I guess my point is are they against the idea that having sex outside of the confines of marriage the sin or the homosexual act the sin. I am just saying that in their statement they are being a little ambiguous and that they should clarify to non-mormons that yes we except our gay brothers and sisters but that under no circumstances including under the confines of "marriage" is it allowable in our church. And the church has changed its stance before don't forget blacks receiving the preisthood and the disolussion of polygomy.

  • davedave Sandy, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 9:56 p.m.

    To atl134:

    I lived in the South when African Americans were given to the priesthood and I can tell you many people felt the same way........"during my lifetime". I hope you are right but you never know.

  • Just Thinking Outloud.. Merrimack, NH
    Sept. 10, 2011 10:40 p.m.

    When a Protestant leader says the LDS Church is not following historical Christianity I have to agree. That was the reason for the restoration.

    If historical Christianity is the standard by which we should believe then why are these folks not Catholics? When Protestants painfully broke away from the Catholic Church- the reformers made the choice not to follow historical Christianity.

  • eagle651 Chino Valley, AZ
    Sept. 10, 2011 10:54 p.m.

    To be a Mormon you need have broad shoulders. Critics of the Church are everywhere, some of their remarks are mild and not to hurtful because they don't know and others seem to written by Satan himself.
    The Lord is watching over His Church and has given us the Iron rod for guidance and comfort.
    Yes,"All things were made by Him" even Mormons, but the ones with hardened hearts and stiff necks will always feel threatened and throw their darts at us.
    The quality of the Church will ways stand above the critics.
    Never lose faith because He is with us always, after all it is His Church.

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 10, 2011 11:19 p.m.

    Bill in Nebraska
    "All we have to do is to continue to gain a great understanding of, THE FAMILY, A PROCLAMATION TO THE WORLD. This came out in 1995 years before the so called gay movement took hold. "

    LDS4
    The Proclamation came out in response to the gay marriage voter initiatives in Hawaii and Alaska that year. It was a combination "Call to Arms" against gay marriage as well as a political position paper. The only thing wrong with the proc is the last paragraph, a thinly veiled call for people to curb the rights of gays to marry. We know, though, that D&C 134:4 and 1 Cor. 10:29 both condemn using one's private moral beliefs as justification to condemn the rights and liberties of others. Gays in CA had the right to marry before Prop.8 passed. I SINCERELY beg for someone to explain how LDS and non-LDS Christian support of Prop.8 was not in violation of those verses.

  • Rikitikitavi Cardston, Alberta
    Sept. 10, 2011 11:36 p.m.

    I recently had the very distinct honor of wearing the yellow t-shirt we all recognize:"Mormon helping hands". This is one way of showing the world (or at least those who will take notice)that in spite of perceived doctrinal difference or differing scriptural interpretations, actions must in the end speak louder than words. Seems to me in my own naive, simplistic mind that to live as Christ taught should trump any hot air that these evangelical folks spew forth that Mormons are not Christian. Sorta the old cliche "don't just talk the talk but truly walk the walk". In the city where I was able to spend two long days in volunteer service was a Church Humanitarian couple who said that after Katrina, there were as many as 3,000 volunteers "Mormon helping hands" whose recovery efforts they co-ordinated. It is truly sad when such "out of touch" folks continue their mindless, ill-informed rants. Yet the countless folks who were served truly know that us imperfect Latter-Day Saints are just trying to follow our Savior.

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Sept. 11, 2011 12:04 a.m.

    Article quote: "At one point in the story, the reporter quotes a South Carolina Republican leader, who said that "Mormons don't see Jesus Christ for who Jesus Christ really is. That's the big issue. They see him as a prophet, not the only begotten Son of God."

    ___

    Absolutely, POSITIVELY untrue.

    Yes, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints absolutely DO see Jesus Christ as the Son of God.

    We see Jesus as the Creator.

    We see Jesus as the Great Mediator, the one and only promised Messiah, the Savior and Redeemer of the world, and as God's only Begotten Son.

    If some South Carolina politician wants to believe something false about LDS doctrine, that's his choice.

    But at least readers here will know the truth.

  • Hawkyo SYRACUSE, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 12:12 a.m.

    LDS4, I've said it before, you speak out against the church, and its leaders. Your views are that of someone who has been blinded by the great deceiver.
    And seriously, Marriage is NOT a right, and you also forget where rights come from. They come from God, not the government!

  • Dan Maloy Enid, OK
    Sept. 11, 2011 12:22 a.m.

    Homosexual activity is simply immoral. It is wrong, it is evil; always has been and always will be. Period.

    Now, before any pro-homosexual readers freak out, notice I said homosexual "activity" is wrong. There is a difference between who one is and what one does. The LDS church has been exceptionally clear that if anyone struggles with homosexual urges and desires but does not act on them they are as worthy as the staunchest, sexually pure heterosexual person. The LDS member in San Francisco called to be a clerk must be in this latter category.

    But to expect the LDS church to change it's position on homosexual activity, ie, "sexual relations with one of the same sex", so-called "marriage", etc, is unwise. Why? Because Jesus Christ alone is in charge of the LDS church and He will not, no matter what fuss pro-homosexuals stir up, change His mind.

    Gladly, I rejoice in the fact that God is constant and refuses to be pushed around by anyone.

    (Now, having said that, let's see if this gets posted. DesNews posting police don't seem to like the word "wrong" and "homosexuals" to appear in the same post.)

  • Curtis Hight Juneau, AK
    Sept. 11, 2011 2:44 a.m.

    lds4gaymarriage,

    The Proclamation was read publicly for the first time in September 1995. The voter initiatives in Alaska and Hawaii were voted on in November 1998. There were same-sex marriage matters prior to the Proclamation but the voter initiatives in Alaska and Hawaii came later.

    D&C 134:4 and 1 Corinthians 10:29 are not intended to prevent a body politic from legislating morality. The question isn't whether or not we should legislate morality (because there isn't much, if anything else we legislate), the question is "what is moral?" And answers will rarely have consensus. In this democratic republic I support your freedom of speech to influence change in people's minds about what is moral even if I disagree with your beliefs about morality. (See Jarom 1:5 and Mosiah 29 for further commentary on morality, legislation and government.)

  • Cats Somewhere in Time, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 7:57 a.m.

    Attacks on the LDS Church stem from a combination of ignorance and deliberate dishonesty. Any preacher who receives his livelihood from the number of members he can attract to his church has a serious conflict of interest from the outset. Those who feel threatened by a Church that is taking their members have a strong incentive to spew out hatred and falsehoods. Many repeat those falsehoods just out of sheer ignorance. It will continue and all we can do is to try and set a good example and correct the falsehoods as best we can.

    We need to remember that Christ watches over His Church and will continue to bless those who live His commandments. Those who are pure in heart will discern the truth even among all the confusion and falsehoods that others try to promote. The great rock will continue to roll forth from the mountain.

    P.S. The Church will NEVER change its stance on homosexual lifestyle and "marriage."

  • The Caravan Moves On Enid, OK
    Sept. 11, 2011 8:59 a.m.

    @ LDS4 who wrote "I SINCERELY beg for someone to explain how LDS and non-LDS Christian support of Prop.8 was not in violation of those verses."

    ___

    My (Caravan) comment: and I sincerely beg you to explain how Prop. 8 went against the teachings of God.

  • ChuloDO Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 11:05 a.m.

    One argument, Caravan, regarding the notion that support of Proposition 8 went against the teachings of God (or, at minimum, the principles of freedom of this country) is the intolerance that it implied. If Mormons and other people want to believe that homosexuality and/or gay marriage is wrong, then hey, it's a free country. But don't go around legislating your morality or religion on others--especially in another state.

    While the LDS church reportedly did not directly support Proposition 8 financially, there was communication--formal and/or informal--that encouraged members to contribute funds in support of prop 8. This impetus came from Utah and affected primarily Californians, some of whom understandably preferred that Utah and Mormons (comprising only a minority of California residents) would mind their own business. While it wasn't illegal, it was meddling. All those who are grandstanding against gay marriage would be well served to focus on their own relationships, marriage or otherwise.

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 11:28 a.m.

    Hawkyo -
    LDS4, I've said it before, you speak out against the church, and its leaders. Your views are that of someone who has been blinded by the great deceiver.
    And seriously, Marriage is NOT a right, and you also forget where rights come from. They come from God, not the government!

    LDS4
    Well, I'm obviously misinterpreting the verses I quoted. Do you know of an interpretation that allows people to use their religious opinions to justify infringing upon the rights of others? I'd love to hear it. Gays had the RIGHT in CA to marry prior to Prop.8 and we LDS let our "religious opinions prompt us to infringe upon the rights and liberties of" those gays. I'd love your help to overcome my apostate views.

    Marriage IS a right. The US Supreme Court said so in the Loving ruling which overturned laws forbidding mixed-race marriages. The specific ruling that it overturned had a section where the overturned judge stated that God separated the races and therefore didn't intend for them to inter-marry and he quoted a Bible verse as support. Perhaps the Supremes were wrong since allowing inter-racial marriage clearly violates God's word.

  • ChuloDO Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 1:06 p.m.

    "P.S. The Church will NEVER change its stance on homosexual lifestyle and "marriage.""

    If that's what "the Church" wants to do, fine. Freedom of religion.

    As for imposing its beliefs on others, though (e.g., Proposition 8), I would hope that they keep the meddling hands off. The gays who want to get married in Cali aren't impeding Mormons anywhere from raising a forever family.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Sept. 11, 2011 1:51 p.m.

    To LDS4GAYMARRIAGE: You may feel that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is not obeying its own scriptures but as Curtis Hight spells out there is a huge difference. The question comes out either you sustain President Monson, the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers and revelators. You can disagree and I can guaranteee you that there are many disagreements between these brethern but in the end when President Monson, says this is the way it should be, then you find a complete unified front by all.

    We are legally bound to vote our minds and beliefs. The problem is that they will continue to be front and center just as they were in California and every other state where it has been given to the people to vote on. President Packer spoke quite well when he said courts and legislatures can vote to change man laws to accomodate changes in society, yet they will never change the laws of God. We have a mandate and a charge to try and pass laws which are morally right, in accordance with the laws of God.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 2:26 p.m.

    The Voice of reason;Mormons don't see Jesus Christ for who Jesus Christ really is. That's the big issue.
    Mormon Doctrine p742 (Jesus) Conceived and Born in the normal natural course of events.. .Also
    The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115).

    The pale of Christianity believes the birth of Jesus was a unique miracle by the Holy Spirit/Ghost same Greek word. This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about, His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18 NIV).
    Protevangelium, And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and HER seed(sperma,4690); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" (Genesis 3:15). But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son- Born of a Woman- born under law(Joseph)(Galatians 4:4 NIV)

  • lds4gaymarriage Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 3:17 p.m.

    The Caravan Moves On
    ..and I sincerely beg you to explain how Prop. 8 went against the teachings of God.

    LDS4
    Easy. 1 Cor.10:29 has Paul asking one person's moral sensitivities can justify infringing upon the rights of another. D&C 134:4 talks about those who allow their religious opinions to prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others. It's clear that God frowns upon those who use their own private religious/moral opinions as justification to infringe upon the rights of others.

    Regarding Prop.8, gays in CA, prior to 8's passing had the right under CA law to marry. About 18000 gays DID marry. WE LDS, due to our religious/moral opinions about homosexuality, the family, etc...felt justified in trying to pass a law that clearly infringed upon the rights of others. Prop.8 objectively infringed upon the rights of gays. This seems to be in direct opposition to the scriptures.

    The prophets have stated that their own words are inferior to scripture so the Proc or anything else not sustained as scripture, via Common Consent, can't override scripture.

    It's pretty straight forward. Please let me know HOW I'm wrong.

  • Kevin J. Kirkham Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 3:34 p.m.

    Bill in NE
    The question comes out either you sustain President Monson, the First Presidency and members of the Quorum of the Twelve as prophets, seers and revelators.
    LDS4
    I do! Just as I supported HBL and JFS before him who both stated that their words are to be ignored if they don't align with scripture. The 3 + 12 can't just ignore scripture.

    Bill
    President Packer spoke quite well when he said courts and legislatures can vote to change man laws to accomodate changes in society, yet they will never change the laws of God.
    LDS4
    I'm not asking the Church to permit homosexual behaviors. I'm just saying that scripture forbids LDS from infringing upon the rights of others and that is what Prop8 did. We must refrain from doing what scritpure clearly condemns.

    Bill
    We have a mandate and a charge to try and pass laws which are morally right, in accordance with the laws of God.
    LDS4
    So we need to pass laws outlawing coffee, tea, shopping on Sundays and bikinis? Really? Isn't that what those who oppossed plural marriage 125 years ago thought that they were doing? You wanna emulate THEM? Really!?!?!

  • JediMormon Omaha, NE
    Sept. 11, 2011 3:40 p.m.

    Comparing the church's stance on gay marriage to blacks receiving the priesthood, doesn't equate. For the church, gay marriage is a moral issue, whereas blacks receiving the priesthood had always been "at some point in time, they will get it". Having gay tendencies is not the concern--but acting on those tendencies is. That's the sin, according to the church. For myself, having an openly gay person in a leadership position in my ward would not bother me in the least. I would support that person just as well as I support the other leaders of my ward.

    Blacks were finally able to receive the priesthood because of revelation from God. I don't see the same thing happening with gay marriage, however. (Personal opinion).

  • atl134 Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 3:44 p.m.

    @Hawkyo
    "Your views are that of someone who has been blinded by the great deceiver. "

    Curious how some people who would get offended if someone of another faith said that about their faith... are just fine using it against others.

  • Kevin J. Kirkham Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 3:47 p.m.

    sharrona
    Mormon Doctrine is NOT Mormon Doctrine. Only the scriptures are doctrine. We OFFICIALLY join with other Christians in believing in the miraculous conception of Christ. We don't know the exact methods or mechanics of how God did it. It doesn't really matter how it happened...it only matters THAT it happened and that we all benefit from the atonement of Christ.

    All faiths have leaders who have made statements and commentaries that are foolish and I don't think you want to take ownership for things that Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagen, Tony Alamo and others have said. We LDS have a bad habit of taking everything that the GAs say as Gospel. The prophets have said that we shouldn't do it, but too many can't resist.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Sept. 11, 2011 4:22 p.m.

    To Kevin J Kirkham and LDS4GayMarriage: The Word of Wisdom is a commandment to follow, it is not a law. You have the law of tithing, the doctrine of marriage and etc. It stands as it should for all to follow, but it isn't governing. To LDS4 same-sex marriage is a MORAL issue, not a right issue. Those who believe that are preaching false doctrine. It has nothing to do with rights thus they are not going against the scriptures as stated.

    I'll ask both of you to go back and try to find every General Conference talk ever given. You probably won't be able to do so but we are told that those talks especially those given during those conferences are SCRIPTURE. If we were to take each of those conferences and put them together, you wouldn't be able to carry that book around with you. Why, do you think that the 4th Sunday of every month is given to studying and learning about selected talks by your Stake President for both the Relief Society and Priesthood. It is true that we are not to take what is said as Gospel but to LEARN for ourselves.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 5:14 p.m.

    Kirk C Kirkham: All faiths have leaders who have made statements and commentaries that are foolish and I don't think you want to take ownership for things that Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagen,Alamo and others have said. True, They are very schismatic in the body of believers, but they hold no authority over the vast majority,But your authorities:

    Brigham Young said, The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood was begotten of His Father, as we are of our fathers. (JoD 8:115).

    Joseph Fielding Smith, They tell us the BoM states that Jesus was begotten of the Holy Ghost. I challenge that statement. The BoM teaches No Such thing! Neither does the Bible! (Doctrines of Salvation Vol 1:18) Check Alma 7:10 and Mt 1:18.

    Heber C Kimball, I was naturally begotten; so was my father,and also my Saviour Jesus Christ. According to the scriptures ,he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it.(JoD 8:21)
    No room for Orson Pratt,and others.

  • Curtis Hight Juneau, AK
    Sept. 11, 2011 5:50 p.m.

    lds4gaymarriage/Kevin,

    Your comments at 3:17 p.m. and 3:34 p.m., and ChuloDO's around noon, are largely answered through my 2:44 a.m. comments. You seem to be wanting a civic world where freedom of speech is limited to those voices you agree with, and you seem to want to wrest scriptural context and meaning and then shackle the Church with this wrested interpretation. The First Amendment and other laws answer the legal issues and virtues have to answer for public relations, while Jarom 1:5 and Mosiah 29 answer the scriptural questions.

    President Obama, Ron Paul, and Mitt Romney all approach civic government based on their personal beliefs about morality. The Nixon, Ford, and Carter administrations supported a 55 mph speed limit. Why? Morality! From a certain point of view! The Reagan administration supported higher speed limits. Why? Morality! From another point of view. We're almost always, if not always, legislating morality: "legislating morality" isn't the issue, "what is moral?" is the question. And I value your freedom of speech in a public conversation laboring to answer it!

  • Linus Bountiful, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 6:17 p.m.

    Sharrona, Are you saying that Protestants don't believe that Jesus had a father; are you saying that Mary was his only parent? If so, then you are the one denying that Jesus Christ is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father. Not the Mormons, falsely accused by the Carolina preacher.

  • Kevin J. Kirkham Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 8:16 p.m.

    Bill in Nebraska ...same-sex marriage is a MORAL issue, not a right(s) issue. Those who believe that are preaching false doctrine. It has nothing to do with rights thus they are not going against the scriptures as stated.

    KJK
    Sorry, Prop 8 had to do with which CIVIL rights the CIVIL government would grant to those whose unions were recognized under CIVIL law. The scriptures condemn us using our religion as justification to infringe upon those CIVIL rights. Our religion rightly states that homosexuality is wrong, but Prop.8 wasn't a referendum on our beliefs, but rather about the CIVIL rights and standing afforded same-sex couples.

    Bill...talks especially those given during those conferences are SCRIPTURE.
    KJK
    "Some of the brethren have been willing to submit to the inference that what they have said was pronounced under the influence of the inspiration of the Lord and that it therefore is the will of the Lord... but that does not become binding upon the Church unless and until it is submitted to the scrutiny of the rest of the brethren and later to the vote of the people."
    Hugh B. Brown

    Sorry, only SUSTAINED scripture is binding.

  • Andermart Pullman, WA
    Sept. 11, 2011 10:21 p.m.

    Sharrona:

    As a previously baptized member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, you should know better. Although you are likely to refuse the correction, in the spirit of this wonderful article, you need to be corrected.

    Paramount in LDS theology is the teaching that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Our premier article of faith states: "WE BELIEVE IN GOD THE ETERNAL FATHER, AND IN HIS SON JESUS CHRIST, AND IN THE HOLY GHOST." It cannot be clearer.

    Jesus is not the son of Joseph, nor is He the son of the Holy Spirit, nor a mere prophet. He is the Only Begotten Son of God the Father in the flesh, through the power of the Holy Spirit. That is unique miracle in our eyes. No other than Jesus Christ has ever had an immortal father and mortal mother. He held power over death. He lived a perfect life. No other person could be our Savior. No other person wrought the infinite atonement. God, Our Heavenly Father, was His earthly Father. The scriptures are instructively clear. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God.

    Do you believe something entirely different from these beliefs?

  • Kevin J. Kirkham Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 11, 2011 10:43 p.m.

    Curtis Hight
    D&C 134:4 and 1Cor.10:29 aren't intended to prevent a body politic from legislating morality.
    KJK
    Both clearly show that subjective morality can't justify infringing upon the rights of others.

    CH
    The question isn't whether or not we should legislate morality (because there isn't much, if anything else we legislate), the question is "what is moral?"
    KJK
    We may legislate OBJECTIVE morality..outlawing acts that OBJECTIVELY harm the person(murder), property(theft) or rights(kidnapping) of others. Outlawing acts that are SUBJECTIVELY immoral (19th century polygamy)is wrong.

    CH
    You seem to be wanting a civic world where freedom of speech is limited to those voices you agree with..
    KJK
    You're free to speak, just not free, per scripture, to harm the rights of others.

    CH
    ..and you seem to want to wrest scriptural context and meaning and then shackle the Church with this wrested interpretation...Jarom 1:5 and Mosiah 29 answer the scriptural questions.
    KJK
    Sorry, but 1Cor.10:29 and D&C 134:4 are newer, and therefore overriding, scripture. We don't live in Law of Moses theocracies. Paul & JS lived in pluralistic societies. No religion overrules another. All have equal rights.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 12, 2011 8:13 a.m.

    Curtis Hight,

    Well said!

    With the exception of one, all of my philosophy professors had problems with the Church based on their liberal views. I often tried explaining that liberalism when properly understood is entirely compatible with what the Church believes. I argued that 'yes, we believe that all should be free so long as they do not infringe others freedom; but prop 8 was not infringing freedom in the slightest. If I said, 'in private practice they can do as they wish, marry as they wish, like polygamists currently do, just without state endorsement' then what freedom is taken away from the individual when the crowd simply says 'we don't endorse your private institution'. A crowd's refusal to endorse and politically sanction a private institution does not take away individual liberty."

    My point in all this isn't actually in that quote. I'm referencing it (and I often argue that on here) simply to say this- Even those professors would agree that we're always legislating morality.

    Are there people on both sides of the debate using logical fallacies? Yes. What we should focus our attention on, is the productive ends of the debate. Although it's often hard to do.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 12, 2011 8:53 a.m.

    Andermart, The scriptures are instructively clear. Jesus is the Only Begotten Son of God. True,
    The pale of Christianity believes the birth of Jesus was a unique miracle by the *Holy Spirit. This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about, His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. (Mt 1:18 NIV).

    * Holy Ghost/Holy Spirit is the same Greek word(pneuma). God is Spirit (John 4:24) and He is Holy, There is no contradiction in saying that Jesus was begotten by the Holy Spirit and also the Son of God.

    Brigham Young, Jesus was not begotten by the Holy Ghost(JoD v. 1 p.51) ) Mormons believe God is a man ,but not Christians.

    Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.(Mt 16:17)

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.(John 1:1)and the Word became flesh(John 1:14) God becomes man Not man become God.

  • morpunkt Glendora, CA
    Sept. 12, 2011 10:08 a.m.

    @BostonTerry
    Well-stated.

  • Bill in Nebraska Maryville, MO
    Sept. 12, 2011 12:24 p.m.

    KJK: Then I suggest you go back and study your scriptures because this did not infringe on any rights. You are misguided and misrepresenting the Church. It is clear that as long as your pointy of view is seen you are clearly wrong on this.

    The Family, A Proclamation to the World is the teaching tool at the present time for all things pertaining to Same-Sex marriage. If you don't agree talk to your Stake President, Bishop and others. You will find they agree WITH me long before they will agree with you.

  • shamrock Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 12, 2011 6:01 p.m.

    From all I've heard about Jesus, He would think all this theological quibbling was ridiculous and mean-spirited. He seemed much more concerned with "Love thy neighbor" than with parsing scripture.

  • Andermart Pullman, WA
    Sept. 12, 2011 8:19 p.m.

    Sharrona
    Are we even speaking the same language? It seems that you are saying that in your theology, Jesus was the son of the Holy Ghost. Mormons, on the other hand, know Him as the Son of God. So is this about symantics?

  • Main Street Plaza Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 13, 2011 1:54 a.m.

    Please explain the reticence to name the author of the Religion Dispatches piece that is mentioned in this article.

  • A voice of Reason Salt Lake City, UT
    Sept. 13, 2011 11:23 a.m.

    Curtis Hight and Andermart, you've both posted some amazingly clear, direct, not rude, and logically accurate comments on here.

    Thanks!

    ---

    Concerning those who would only fight us, claiming they are Christian and we are not...

    No good fruit can possibly come from saying "No sir, you indeed believe this- contrary to what you claim to believe"

    No good fruit can possibly come from criticizing others on grounds that are not agreed upon. The strawman fallacy is when someone argues against a weaker argument than actually presented. If Mormon's say "We believe that Jesus Christ is our redeemer, the Son of God, etc" then no good fruit can come from arguing on grounds that we 'don't believe such things'. If we are claiming that we do, then the only good fruit, productive dialogue, or even peaceful and righteous debate can come from a discussion that continues with such a premise. Trying to argue against someone's beliefs based on claims that they do not agree with not only is basing your arguments on a strawman fallacy.

    Such dialogue breeds contention, which is not of God. Peaceful discussion requires seeking agreement, not a fight. Such agreement is truly Christian and biblical doctrine.

  • Bro.D Cornelius, Oregon
    Sept. 13, 2011 7:10 p.m.

    davedave wrote:
    "Hence hypothetically speaking two gay men or women could legally get married never having sex before are they still considered in good standing with the church?"

    The answer to that is no if they are having sex which breaks the law of chastity because the church does not recognise the marriage of two people of the same sex regardless if the state they are living in does.

    davedave also wrote:
    The church may have to rethink how it states its stance on gays in the church.

    The Lord does not have to rethink His stance on anything....His stance is law...not just for the church but for the whole world.

  • sharrona layton, UT
    Sept. 13, 2011 7:33 p.m.

    A Voce of reason, Such dialogue breeds contention, . Peaceful discussion requires seeking agreement, not a fight. Such agreement is truly Christian and biblical doctrine.

    ye should earnestly CONTEND for the faith which was once delivered unto the[Christians] saints.(Jude 3)

  • Kirk R Graves West Jordan, UT
    Sept. 14, 2011 8:19 a.m.

    numerous commentors on this article have made the point that the LDS Church should not have gotten involved in Prop 8 because their involvement infringed on the rights of others. The assert that the Church took a moral stance when they shouldn't have. What these individuals have not taken into account is the long term legal impact that same sex marriage will (not might) have on freedom of religion. The Harvard Law Review has an excellent article about this issue. The Church has every right to defend not only it, but it's members freedom of religion. If you want more, you will ahve to look it up yourselves, (I can't post the link). Search for "or Poorer" on the Harvard law review website to get a taste of the legal side of this issue.