Oh come on! This article is really stretching to stir the pot. I am active LDS
and not a Bachmann supporter, but do not find this offensive. It sounds like a
fairly respectfully stated difference of opinion.
This article needs a proofread. It refers to "Merritt" without telling
us who this person is. Presumably, Merritt is the pastor at Bachmann's church.
But basic rules of writing say that you must identify a person before referring
to him or her by just a last name with no further qualification or
explanation.Also, I think it's a bit funny that the Deseret News
apparently feels it necessary to explain to its audience that Mormons believe in
the Book of Mormon, but not to explain that "LDS," "Mormon,"
and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" refer to the
same thing. Is there any logic guiding this writing?
I think the pastors comments are a fair representation of the primary difference
between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity. Mormons believe that what has
been added actually restores the fullness of truth while most Christians believe
that what has been added actually dilutes the truth. And at least
the quote included in the article was pretty respectful. We have all heard much
who is this guy to say it doesn't work? how many are in his congregation? what
welfare and social programs does this guy's church offer? what are his beliefs?
how many states and countries is his church in?........it is this type of
evangelical that libs and many conservatives have a problem with. i am one of
People are entitled to their opinions. I am amazed however that a Pastor would
take time to lecture on Mormons. I would have more respect for this Pastor if he
is willing to declare his church as the only true church on the earth. If he does that, then he's got something but if he is just trying to tear
down, he may want to review the "love thy neighbor" lesson taught in
All things considered it could've been a much worse statement.
The beautiful thing about this country is that we have the freedom to think and
speak however we want, so if I was LDS or catholic or baptist or any religion,
is that this country gives us opportunity to participate on everything, the
constitution doesn't tell you, if you are LDS you can't be president. So to Mrs.
Buchmann: Please have some respect and don't mix religion and politics
together, and let's be professional.
Everyone's entitled to their "opinion", aren't they??
Hmmm...I think you may be on to something Deseret News. Instead of printing
articles discussing a candidate's beliefs and policy positions, you could print
an article discussing how those around them feel about Mormonism. Maybe you
could publish an article about how 'Mormon' Jon Huntsman really is. Maybe you
could try finding every article nationwide published about Mormonism and the
election and then republish it here. And then, if you think the article treats
our faith dismissively by mentioning our beliefs, you could print a response a
few days later. Of course you will have to ignore some worthwhile candidates to
publish all these articles, but no matter. The goal here is to let all your
readers know this election is only a referendum on Mormonism, and has little to
do with finding the best person for the job. Now some may say daily articles
about Mormonism in presidential politics is counter productive to your
previously stated desire that candidates be judged on merit, not on their
religion. We know they are wrong. The only way to prevent Mormonism from
becoming the central issue of this campaign is to publish daily articles.
He was at least polite. He has a product to sell. He is attempting to identify
differences. The LDS church says basically the same thing about other religion.
It is all about sales. It really doesn't matter though Bachmann is too
outside the mainstream to be a serious contender. At least, she isn't a rino
like the two mormon guys.
Hello Pagen! Wouldn't you be more comfortable on Trib threads. Trolling on the
DN seems kind of childish.
The sad fact of the matter is,Utah Republican Mormons would blindly and
sheepishly vote for the devil himself - so long as he has the letter
"R" next to his/her name.How did that warning go
again...oh yes; something about in the last days - "even the very
elect would be deceived".
When is she going to proclaim that the Texas fires are evidence of God's
displeasure with Rick Perry's administration?
Mormonism seems to "work" for me just fine. Evidently, millions of
other people do as well.For being the fastest growing American
religion, and certainly the wealthiest, it seems to work just fine.
Really, Jamshid? You had to go all the way back to a 2007 sermon just to try to
stir up controversy, and this is the best you could come up with? Didn't you
also mention that this is her "new" pastor, so what he said in 2007
doesn't really apply to her does it? (Even though what he apparently said isn't
that big of a deal) Yikes! C'mon D-News. Your staff can do better than this.
I was just reading the book "American Grace", in which two
sociologists from Harvard and Notre Dame reported their analysis of in-depth
surveys they conducted of American religious beliefs and practices and how they
related to other attitudes and behaviors affecting American society. One of the most interesting findings of the surveys was that, even though most
pastors are insistent that ONLY the members of their own narrowly defined faith
tradition will go to heaven, the vast majority of people in their congregations
believe that most other people outside their own churches will be able to
"go to heaven". For the Mormons surveyed, consistent with LDS
doctrine, it is 98%, but it was also about 70% for Evangelical Christians. So
Bachmann's pastor may criticize other denominations as imperfect ways to
salvation, but most of those who listen to him will continue to disagree.
Merritt says: "The whole thing is diluted, and honestly it just doesn't
work."I suppose it depends upon what is being added. The right
"additives" to gasoline makes the engine run better!
What did you expect Bachmann's pastor to say?"Actually, after
digging into it a bit, it turns out the Mormons are right. We've got it all
wrong here. LDS doctrine is pure truth. I don't know why anyone would spend
their time - or money - supporting my sham of a church."Unfortunately, Merritt the pastor is simply an entreprenuer selling a product.
And what's the best way to distinguish your product? By putting down and
casting doubt on your "competitor's" product.
As usual, searching for the "Mormon angle" results in a sub-par story.
The Deseret News: News for Mormons (TM)Why do Mormons need special
news just for them? The recent change in emphasis in how the DN operates is
unfortunate and does not do its readership any favors.
There isn't one true church, the Bible says whoever believes is in the church of
Christ. And I am sure like most churches his has a welfare and outreach program.
Incidentally, I find it interesting that this person gave a sermon titled
"Raise Your Religious IQ Investigating Mormonism" and everybody
thinks that is totally hunky dory.I guarantee you that if an LDS
leader gave a talk titled "Raise Your Religious IQ - Investigating
Protestantism" (or Buddhism, or Catholicism, or Islam, or...you get my
point), people would go ballistic. Especially the anti-LDS community in Utah.
Another example of someone who thinks they know the Mormon religion but doesn't
have a clue. They need to at least have the discussions before commenting with
any level of intelligence on the LDS faith.
This is pure fluff.Who cares what this pastor thinks? He's not running
for office.If you're trying to turn him into some Jeremiah Wright, it just
doesn't work on so many levels.This story has no substance and is unworthy
of publication. Shame on the editors for allowing it.
@Brave Sir Robin"I find it interesting that this person gave a sermon
titled "Raise Your Religious IQ Investigating Mormonism" and everybody
thinks that is totally hunky dory."Well at least for me whether
or not his speech, or a hypothetical one given by an LDS leader about other
groups, is okay, would depend on tone and accuracy of statements.
This minister has failed to see that his church has diluted the teachings of
Christ to the point they are almost unrecognizable anymore. Christ called and
annointed his Apostles and disciples, they did not go to some seminary. Where
are the Apostles in his church as we learn from the scriptures that the church
is built on apostles and prophets until we come to a unity of faith. I would
not say that 800+ Christian Churches is coming to a unity of faith. Paul, the apostle, said that unless he or an angel from Heaven teaches you
anything else do not believe them. What this man teaches was not taught by Paul
and an Angel did come to Joseph Smith and we teach what he and the apostles
What a non-story story. Of course her pastor doesn't believe in Mormonism, if he
did, he'd be Mormon. None of what he said was outrageous or out of character
from what I'd expect any other professor to say. In fact, Mormons say the exact
same (or opposite I suppose) of other churches. They have some truth, but not
all of it.
Her pastor's claim about Mormon's "adding" to "God's word"
is without reason or substance.First, can God not add to his own
word? Many cite Revelation 22:18 to fight the book of Mormon. Howard W. Hunter
has answered this in the talk- "No Man Shall Add to or Take Away".Second, "pure" scripture? The Book of Mormon correlates to
older existing versions of the Bible even more than newer translations. How does
a book being altered over time have any claim to be pure? Ongoing revelation IS
pure. Christ lives! Is one Christian and not believe this to be true?-------One cannot fight the LDS Church and truly be a Christian.
Yet so many will deny these truths in the bible in order to fight God's true
church.Genesis 32:30Exodus 33:111 Corinthians
15:40-41Matthew 18:10, 14Matthew 19:14Jeremiah 1:5Matthew 5:481 Corinthians 8:5-6Psalm 82Matthew 5:481
John 3:1-2John 17:11, 21-22Acts 7: 55-561 Corinthians 12:28Luke 10:1Hebrews 5:6Leviticus 3:30-341 Corinthians 15:29John 10:16
It's obvious the DNews plans to endorse a Mormon candidate (I'm guessing
Romney), so it's altogether understandable it would try to diminish or cast
espersions on or raise doubts about a potential opponent like Bachmann. I'm no
fan of Bachmann, but this is unworthy of a responsible newspaper. At least wait
until Bachmann herself says something negative about the LDS Church. Even then,
whatever the DNews says about Bachmann will likely have no effect on its largely
Want to know what a Democrat stands for, ask the Democrat, not the
Republican.Of course the pastor doesn't think Mormonism is true...
why would he? If he did think it was true, wouldn't he be one? No news there.The problem with evangelicals railing against someone else's religion
from the pulpit is no different than the hate spewed by Wahabists of Islam
railing with hate against the Jews.Come on religious people. Get
some religion! Stop the hate. Tell us what you believe, not what we should think
of someone else's beliefs. Absurd.
I see nothing wrong with the pastors statements, they were delivered
respectfully and without hate. If you were to ask an LDS member about her
faith, using those exact same words would be equally applicable.As
to the church being the wealthiest.... not sure where that comes from. First of
all, the church doesn't report its net worth, so no one really knows. Secondly,
if you were to try to compare the "wealth" of our LDS faith to say the
Catholic church, I think you would find we LDS come up very short. Its not a
bad thing, it is actually a good thing. Net worth has nothing to do with the
truthfulness of rightness of a church.Brave sir Robin - and you just
did exactly what you described. To say the pastor is an
"entreprenuer" selling a product is a most judgemental statement of
anothers convictions, a person I am willing to bet you know very little about.
To presume non-members don't have faith equal to your own is really putting
yourself in dangerous territory.
It doesn't bother me. I think his version of christianity is "diluted"
"untrue" and "doesn't work". So if he thinks the same of
mine I'm not going to take offense.
@Farmington Liberal, you make an excellent point. I'm certain you are referring
of course to Republicans like Bob Bennett. The fact that LDS generally vote
Republican couldn't have anything to do with the fact that broad swaths of the
Democrat party exhibit outright hostility to the values we hold dear. Do you
ever read the Tribune comment section? Enlightened liberals would never vote
for candidates of poor character such as John Edwards, Rod Blagojevich, John
Murtha, Alcee Hastings or Dan Rostenkowski just because they are Democrats.
Roman Emperor Constantine (a pagan, even after his "conversion" to
Christianity) convened the First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD. The purpose of
that council of theologians and church bureaucrats from across the Roman Empire
was to attain consensus (as opposed to establish revealed truth) in church
doctrine. This consensus, along with decisions produced by subsequent councils,
conflicts in meaningful ways with the Bible. Oddly, ministers who follow the
apostate concepts found in these creeds produced by committees -- not prophets
-- are considered to be teaching the truth. And, they say that anyone who does
not follow these apostate creeds have diluted the truth and therefore have none.
You know we're getting into the election season when guilt by association games
start getting coverage in the media.
Don't you dare ask my Bishop his opinions outside of the scriptures and try to
tie those opinions to me. What really bothers me is that articles
like this confuse the ignorant. There are people in Utah that don't get out and
think this is what stream-line Christians think about Mormons. (See comments)
Stirring the pot like this is very bad for Utah.
A voice of Reason said, Her pastor's claim about Mormon's "adding" to
"God's word" is without reason or substance. JS Did: That seer
his name shall be called Joseph(Smith), and it shall be after the name of his
father. ( Gensis 50:33 JST)? JS prophecy about himself.A Marvelous
work and wonder.((Isaiah 29:14 JST)But the book(BoM) shall be delivered unto a
man(JS).verse 16by the power of Christverse 17,three witnesses, verse 19,many
witnesses as seemeth good. Both prophecies NOT found in Greek Septuagint
(Apostles Bible),Dead Sea(Isaiah) Scrolls or Masoretic texts.And
other sheep (John 10:16)They are Gentiles Therefore I want you to know that Gods
salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen! . Acts 28:28 .
I like the last paragraph of the article where it shows the exponential growth
of the LDS religion. Yet the pastor says their religion is on the wrong
track... apparently that locomotive is loaded and getting bigger as it runs on
the wrong track.
Nothing divides us like religion. Nothing spoils politics like...religion.
Well, he must mean that it doesn't work for him, as a pastor. It is a very
difficult model to duplicate and to monetize in such a way that it will replace
an income. But as for instilling hope in individuals, as for restoring self
respect and dignity, as for discovering a way for every person to accept
baptismal covenants and a myriad of other things, it does so much better than
traditional Christianity. I would have to say that it is a more pure extract,
rather than being diluted.
It seems a lot of people think "it works". What would you say to a
Buddhist, they think it "works".
The woman openly uses her religion as a campaign talking point. She has said
she will use it to govern. Her religion, therefore, should be scrutinized. Her
pastor, the one who leads the church, has stated that LDS aren't true christians
and there religion is not true.
If one claims it wrong to believe things not found in the BibleThen it is
amazing to me that these same claimants believe in the "Trinity" which
word isn't even found in the King James Bible, and neither the word I believe
was used in the Nicene Councils " essence"? to describe the Godhead,
while the very scripture used to claim " no more scripture added"
actually concerns specifically " the Book of Revelations" ( there are
MANY books in the Bible!!) and even in the O. T . Is found another reference to
not adding to a prophets words. I highly doubt the prophets intended to limit
God from speaking to prophets as is is pattern from the begining and we are told
He does not change??-- in fact in Amos 3:7 we find God will do nothing
save he reveals his secrets to his servants the prophets --Sooooo, for me
( yes, I'm LDS) what was "added" or diluted, was a battle during New
Test. times, and full apostacy happened about 300 years after Jesus
resurrection. But we don't need to worry -THAT was prophesied ( 2 Thess.
2:3 as was the restoration by an angel Rev 14:6 ! :)
Re: LDS Liberal "The sad fact of the matter is, Utah Republican Mormons
would blindly and sheepishly vote for the devil himself - so long as he has the
letter 'R' next to his/her name."I've read some offensive
comments on DN but that is one of the most offensive comments I've read. Why
don't you just call "Utah Republican Mormons" stupid people who can't
think for themselves, which is what you not-so-subtly implied?
@CurmudgeonThe DeseretNews is LDS owned and as such does not endorse
political candidates. Whether or not the paper has a bias is a different matter.
@first2third"I like the last paragraph of the article
where it shows the exponential growth of the LDS religion. Yet the pastor says
their religion is on the wrong track... apparently that locomotive is loaded and
getting bigger as it runs on the wrong track. "Well, the LDS
church itself believes that there was an apostasy which requires a loaded and
getting bigger wrong track (a bit under 2000 ago), so it's not surprising that
others think something similar.
Petroleum, water and engines? Further evidence that analogies often obscure more
than they illuminate.
Agreed this was a filler article...little substance and not very meaningful.
Worse, for me, are all the comments written to doctrinally straighten the poor
preacher out. Puhleeeeeze, people. Leave the chruch curriculum writing for the
pros in Salt Lake City. I guarantee no one read them or took them seriously or
had any life-changing ah hah's. "Bashing," as we called it in the
mission field, is wasted energy and has no positive effects. Save it and do your
preaching with your love and kindness and sharing.
Nephi must have had this man in mind when he recorded ". And because my
words shall hiss forthmany of the Gentiles shall say: A Bible! A Bible! We have
got a Bible, and there cannot be any more Bible.Wherefore, because that ye have
a Bible ye need not suppose that it contains all my awords; neither need ye
suppose that I have not caused more to be written.
@Neuron: I wish I could give your comment a 1000 recommendations! That post by
LDS Liberal was actually quite tame for him. I'm not sure why the Dnews censors
allow most of his posts as you can see most of them are filled with hate, anger
and vitriol.What's worse is that the Dnews censors allow his posts
and then don't allow rebuttals.----I liked the comment
posted about the additives that can make the car run better! That was
awesome.----Don't all churches believe they are the one
and only true church on earth? If not, why not?As was quoted in A
Marvelous Work and Wonder -- it all boils down to the Catholics or the Mormons.
Either the Catholics have had the priesthood from Peter or they don't. If they
do, they are Christ's church. If they don't, a restoration, not a reformation,
was needed and that's where the LDS come in to play.The rest of the
churches may be teaching some truths but don't have a leg to stand on to claim
they are the only true church. Evangelicals are 1500 years too late to the
party. Sorry folks.
"Christians" who think God is ALL powerful and loving yet will throw
someone into eternal torment because they don't accept Jesus in this life are
not in a position to throw stones about a diluted, untrue or changed Gospel.
If some of these pastors would look into their own religion as they do the LDS,
they would be writing even more derogatory comments about their own church's
beliefs. Most of them know that what they preach is shallow and cannot hold
people to their beliefs, so they jump on the band wagon of "Mormon
haters" and try to build themselves up by tearing the LDS down.They continue to harp on the same old lines but they just don't have the
doctrine to to preach their own beliefs.How very sad that most of
their people just can't get past the hate.
@ Neuron | 5:47 p.m. Sept. 6, 2011 Like the song says, LDS lib's
*opinion* more often than not is Sad but true.Look at how many
people blindly support Romney & Chaffetz.67% people in Utah's
2nd district voted for W on 2008; the 2nd is Utah's most liberal district.
I've been over this issue of "adding to the Bible" many times with
friends over the years and it still completely baffles me as to why so many
mainstream Christians have such a hard time believing that God, if He wants to
do so, cannot add anything to the Bible. Who are we to limit what
God can say?
The good pastor better not quit his day job (which I'm sure pays comfortably
enough) to go full-time into the analogizing business.Let's assume
he's right, and Mormons have, indeed, added something extra to God's gas
tank.He thinks it's water. By that logic, the Mormon motor ought to
sputter and quit.Oh darn, it hasn't. In fact, those darn Mormons
are blowing the good reverend's congregation pretty well out of the water on
multiple measures of fruits-ye-shall-know-them. (Mmmm....fruits!) Our sons are
more manly & sober, our daughters are prettier, and our root beer beats
theirs in nine out of ten blind taste tests. The additive must be
nitrous or something. Now I'm probably going to see in the comments I haven't
read that about twenty people have already made that fish-in-a-barrel point.
Thanks for the setup, Rev.
I've often wondered, "So what part of the Book of Mormon do you (to those
of other religious faiths) find reprehensible and full of the Devil?"Is it the part in which it says that we must be kind to one another?Is it the part that says we should help carry one anothers' burdens?Is it the part that says we should believe in God and obey Him with all
our heart, might, mind and strength?Is it the part that teaches us
the 10 Commandments?Is it the part that teaches us that we should
pray to God unceasingly?Is it the part that says if we only pray to
God but don't nourish and lift the weak and the poor that our prayers avail us
nothing?Is it the part that says that the wicked who rebel against
God cannot live with Him after we die?Or is it the numerous,
NUMEROUS parts that testify that Jesus is the Christ, the Redeemer of all
mankind?So many people claim the Book of Mormon is an
"evil" book and I ask, which part of it, exactly?
CJBEvengelicals have too much faith in the Bible and not enough
faith in the goodness of God.
[ ... he suggested the Mormon faith is "untrue"... ]Isn't
that what Mormons say about other faiths?
"Nothing divides us like religion."Oh, hogwash. I think
the pastor's wrongheaded, but what he said was plain vanilla nothing compared to
what people say about each other in the name of politics. Exhibit
"A" -- The same people who hum John Lennon's "Imagine" and
think religion is a horribly divisive force, will happily paint their
politically-adverse neighbors as the second coming of Vlad the Impaler (because,
fr'instance, they'd like to limit federal spending to 20% of GDP).
The Caravan Moves On --If I had to pick, it would be the parts where
God buries, burns, floods, or otherwise kills off cities full of the people who
haven't been good enough.I have a hard time enough thinking about
six-year-old girls dying horribly in natural disasters, without making God their
own personal executioner. Or, in a broader sense, a Christian who
understands faith as primarily a matter between the Almighty and each individual
soul -- an understanding which is such a great support for the concept of
freedom of religion -- might worry that the Book of Mormon's apparent emphasis
on collective, societal righteousness (as in, make sure your civilization is
good enough, otherwise the Almighty will unleash your dark and loathsome
neighbors on you) is uncomfortably Islamic, and tends to lead to the conclusion
that righteousness should be enforced by "laws [that are] exceedingly
strict."Now of course the Bible has its own share of holy
butchery -- but I've always been able to set it aside, the Bible being cobbled
together from the oral traditions of a bunch of near-savages, who can be excused
getting a few things wrong. Harder with miraculous translation.
Sensible Middle -- "Evengelicals have too much faith in the
Bible and not enough faith in the goodness of God."The word for
this is "bibliolatry."
@charles"it all boils down to the Catholics or the Mormons. Either
the Catholics have had the priesthood from Peter or they don't. If they do, they
are Christ's church. If they don't, a restoration, not a reformation, was needed
and that's where the LDS come in to play.The rest of the churches
may be teaching some truths but don't have a leg to stand on to claim they are
the only true church. Evangelicals are 1500 years too late to the party. Sorry
folks. "It's entirely possible that both the Catholic
churh and the Mormon church doesn't have authority or that no church doe. Now
the concept of there being no "God's church" seems a bit odd but the
LDS belief that an apostasy occurred would require such a period without one so
it's not too difficult to believe. Of course, if a restoration were needed...
that doesn't mean the LDS church is the right means of restoration.
Bachmann = Insanity
Underlying the difficulty Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are having among
evangelicals is the ignorance and bigotry of evangelicals toward Mormonism. This
is a classical case of just that type of ignorance and a deeply underlying
bigoted stance toward the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Although
I believe Michelle Bachmann would likely be more fair-minded toward Mitt Romney
and Jon Huntsman, nevertheless, she still drinks from a polluted source from her
I loved the car and diluted gasoline analogy. I don't care what her pastor
thinks about mormons because that's irrelevant in the campaign arena. However,
maybe now I see how she was going to make that two dollar a gallon gas thing
Yes, evangelicals certainly constitute "pure" and
"undiluted" religion, having been "refined" through the
prism of the Nicene Creed. Lots of luck with that!
In June 27, 2011 of this year Michele Bachmann made a public speech which
contained the following words: Sourse: Desert News.I pray believing
that God will speak to me and give me an answer to that prayer."that's what a calling is - If I pray, a calling means that I feel like I
have a sense from God--it means that I have a sense of assurance about the
dirictionI think that God is speaking into my heart that I should go.I know of some scriptures that is contrary to what Michele says
(above).1) 2nd Thessalonians 2:2-3, verse 2. ---as that the day of Christ
is at hand.Verse 3. Let no man deceive you by any means:, for that
day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin
be revealed, the son of perdition.What is the falling away? See Amos
8: 11-12. 11, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a
famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of
hearing the word of the Lord. Cont'd next post.
I agree that the atonement of Jesus Christ is the supernally beautiful center of
Christianity, but the appendanges added to it have not diluted it, but made it
even more awesome. Our first child was wonderfully beautiful, but each
subsequent child added to our family in no way "diluted" our love or
gratitude or indebtedness to God, but only added to it all.
I am disgusted by this article's blatant "baiting" and pandering to
malcontents and divisiveness.DN should be ashamed.
Re: LDS Liberal: Which party was three term governor Rampton and two term
Governor Matheson from. Oh, and which state voted for the independent Ross
Perot more than Mr. Clinton in his first term. Seems Utahns are pretty
independent folks who vote for good people mostly over party. After all Mr. Jim
Matheson has been repeatedly sent back to Washington even in a district arranged
to make that difficult.
This article commits the fallacy of guilt by association. Who cares what
Bachman's paster says about the LDS Church? Is that really what she would say? I
have had Bishops who have said things I don't agree with, even though generally
we believe in the same doctrines.
Cont,d from earlier post. (Amos 8: 11)verse 12, And they shall
wander from sea to sea, and from the North even to the east, they shall run to
and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall notfind it.Acts 3:21 says, The Heavens must receive Jesus Christ untill the restitution
of all things.John the Revelator had a glimpse of the restitution of
all things. Revelation 14:6, and I saw another angel fly in the midst of
heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the
earth,and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.Has
the real gospel of Jesus Christ been restored? The Church Jesus built when He
walked upon the earth had twelve apostles and prophets. Does anyone know of a
church with 12 apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ as the Chief corner stone.
"The whole thing is diluted, and honestly it just doesn't work."Really? Mormonism doesn't work? From 6 members in the early 1800s to 14
million now. The Book of Mormon is a top-10 book of all time. Come
on Pastor. Make an intelligent response. You don't believe Mormonism. That's
fine. We can all agree to disagree. But at least show some substance in your
statement. And the accusation of Mormons being condemned for supposedly
"adding to the word of God" is a tired, worn-out accusation that just
doesn't work (see Old Testament Deuteronomy 4:2, and how much has been
"added" after that.)
How can she listen to this preacher week in and week out and not be influenced?
I believe I heard a talk show host ask that question daily during the last
@LDS Liberal: Then how do you explain our wonderful Representative down south,
Jim Matheson, with a big "D" after his name, consistently getting
re-elected for years? Southern Utah is as "R" a place as you can
Blah, blah, blah.
Dear Silas Brill, that is what Christ said when he proclaimed that this Church,
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the Only true and living
Church on the earth. We simply repeat what he said. Deuteronomy
and Revelations talk about adding to the scriptures also, yet we have books
written after Deuteronomy. John was written after Revelations. God can always
add to his word or write it again to make a point. Christ said,
John 3:5, that a man [woman] must be born of the water and the spirit or they
cannot enter the Kingdom of God. Paul baptized a person because he had not
heard of the Holy Ghost so Paul knew the baptism they received was not by one
authorized to baptize. He then laid his hands on them and they received the
Holy Ghost. Baptism is the gate and the Holy Ghost is the purifier. Because one went to a seminary and received a degree does not give him
authorization to act in the name of God. Only God, not a school or college, can
authorize that through his appointed disciples. Study the scriptures and see
how it was done.
I do not agree with anyone putting down another religions, because there is good
in all teachings that lead us back to God. I also feel like those that have to
do this are acting like they have more knowledge and authority then God does.
No one has the right on this earth to declare what God can or can't do and if he
wants a living prophet and a restored church then his will is more valid then
anyone else. I personally can't wrap my brain around the fact that in ancient
times there was a lot of prophets and teachings going on and in our world today
where we need it more then ever that God would shut the heavens up and ignore us
and not speak to us about things that are going on today. Sorry, but I believe
in a God that has no limits, especially the ones that man want to put on him. I
like the words of a song that I have sung, "with God, nothing is
impossible". That is truth.
I find it very fulfilling, rewarding, and pleasant to be a member of the true
church that Christ established while on the earth... The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints, the modern-time restored version. It is interesting to
watch others try to disprove this fact, which they always have difficulty
doing.Contrary to what Bachmann's pastor (a paid minister) said, the LDS
Church actually is the fullness of the Christian Church, not merely a diluted
version. Regardless of what anyone says, it remains true... and people would be
wise to investigate further. It will bless their lives greatly as it has mine
and that of my family.Captain Jim GreenFormer US NavyRetired
Airline PilotCurrent University ProfessorLife LDS Member
Oh, who cares.She's got as much of a chance at winning the
nomination as Mary Poppins.
Sounds like the Mormon religion is working. Look as all the people it is
Pagen:"You act like this is a new tactic with the DSnews. President
Obama's purported 'weird'-Mormon strategy against Mitt Romney will backfire....
The DSNews claimed Obama's campaign was trying to...Kill Romney.To date, Obama
hasn't said a word about Romney's faith. Yet, the DSNews felt the need to report
on something he...never, said"The DN article is clearly a
summary of & comentary on several artcles, and those articles are the source
of the claims not the DN. The articles cited and quoted are from: Politico, the
Atlantic wire Mediaite & raw story, and those articles made the claim that
Obama camp strategists are the responsible parties. "Unless
things change and Obama can run on accomplishments, he will have to kill Romney,
said a prominent Democratic strategist aligned with the White House"
Politico 8/9/11The DN did not make any claims about Obama or rather
the Obama campain targeting Romney's religion and using it to "kill
Romney", the source articles mentioned above did.Your blatant
bias & attempt to smear the DN (LDS Owned) shines through in your post, and
once again you do not read the source materials. When accuracy/truth are not
your goal-why bother ???
Remember Sharron Angle who tried to unseat Senator Harry Reid just last year
here in Nevada? Turns out Angles former pastor had some derogatory things to
say about Mormons, too. It caused a stir here, where we LDS comprise about 11
percent of the total population but represent almost 25% of the voting block.
She responded with dignity explaining that she, of course, cant possibly control
the opinion of every person shes ever been linked to, and reiterated her respect
for Latter-day Saints with whom she shares more common values than does Harry
Reid. Ninety-five percent of the LDS I know voted for her over Harry due to her
true conservative and constitutionalist beliefs. Not certain how this reality
will bode for Romney vs. Bachmann vs Perry.
The problem many pastors may have with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter- day
Saints might be suggested in the first chapter of Alma, verses 2 through 6 and
verses 12 & 16. But, if so, they are not likely to say so...
(continued) What I can assure you is that at this very moment Romneys opponents
are digging to find and quote some former church leader of his who has made
hateful or bigoted statements about others religions. Thing is theyll come up
empty. As a convert of 35 years, I have never heard any leader teach anything
derogatory about how others worship. Instead, we invite all to come unto Christ
and to learn more of what He has taught through latter-day revealed doctrine.
@ A voice of Reason: All your scripture references were spot on, except one.
There's no such thing as Leviticus 3:30-34, at least not in my bible...it only
goes to verse 17.
"he proclaimed that this Church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints is the Only true and living Church on the earth. We simply repeat what he
said."Ok, I get it.So, if this paster said,
"god told me that the LDS religion is wrong and diluted" then all is
well?He could distance himself from his words. Sorry,
it does not work that way, but nice try.
Why does religion have to be like sports rivalry? Why can't people be content
in their own religion without having to look down on other religions?
Charles - what about Baptist that believe (rightfully so) that Peter left behind
a series of independent christian congregations as he preached across the
region. Or the Eastern Orthidox who claim the same lineage as the Holy Roman
Catholic church. It really isn't a black and white as it looks. I
was really surprised to read about the origins of the Baptist... it is worth the
time to educate yourself on their claims as well.
3grandslams | 2:35 p.m. Sept. 6, 2011 Iowa City, IA People are
entitled to their opinions. I am amazed however that a Pastor would take time to
lecture on Mormons. I would have more respect for this Pastor if he is willing
to declare his church as the only true church on the earth. If he
does that, then he's got something but if he is just trying to tear down, he may
want to review the "love thy neighbor" lesson taught in the bible. ================Isn't declaring your own church as the "Only
True Church" in fact tearing down all other churches? Of course it is.
You're calling them liars and false churches - thus tearing them down every bit
as much as your complaining about them tearing down your own.Every
time you say "I know MY Church is the True Church", you're saying
"I know YOUR Church is a False Church". Don't you see that?
USAlover says:"Mormonism seems to "work" for me just fine.
Evidently, millions of other people do as well."--- Millions of
other people work for you? Wow. ;}KD says:"They need to
at least have the discussions before commenting with any level of intelligence
on the LDS faith."---The "discussions" don't really
teach all that much about Mormonism. I still have my set from my mission 30
years ago. "Milk before meat", remember?CougarBlue
says:"Christ called and annointed his Apostles and disciples,
..."---Actually all believers were called apostles and
disciples, neither was a special "calling" - and Christ NEVER started
a Church. For centuries, Christians were just another SECT of Judaism.===@A voice of Reason;Using your own
"scriptures" to prove your churches doctrine is essentially
A wonderful opportunity for LDS to share the truth.
Why is this news? Evangelical Christians have been bashing on LDS since Joseph
Smith first told his Methodist pastor about the first vision. Are we trying
to say that because evangelical christians don't agree with LDS doctrine that
they are guilty of the same hate mongering and racism that our current
presidents 20 year pastor is guilty of?? Come on,there is no comparison. Black
Libertion Theology is racism hidden as religion. It is apples and oranges.
I think what upsets Mormons is the fact the we wholeheartedly believe in and
practice Article of Faith #11 but other religons don't....they actively teach
against the church in their chapels, in their Sunday schools etc. whereas in the
Church of Jesus Christ of latter-day Saints we only teach the Gospel of Jesus
Christ as it has been restored...we NEVER teach of other faiths...good or bad.
Period...it's not our business. So, when we hear of them going out of their way
to put down our faith.....it rattles us...
Merritt's comments are myopic at best, hypocritcial as worst. He would have
made a good Pharisee. Offended??? Never, it is laughable. Yes a car needs pure
gas but withouth power e.g., batter, alternator, plugs, wires, etc. it can't
run. Who has power? The analogy runs both ways. We all need to cleave unto
truth and resist judging.
@Moracle 2:48 I'm not sure why any pastor would take offense to the
scriptures you cited from Alma Chapter 1. Nehor was not condemned to death
simply for teaching against the church. He was condemned because he enforced his
teachings by murdering Gideon in verse 9. Not only that, verse 17 explains,
"...the law could have no power on any man for his belief." @RanchHand 7:10 Your point is well noted which is why I don't get
all that offended by articles such as these. I respect the opinions of those who
disagree with LDS theology, so long as that disagreement is based on fact and
not some untrue or half-truth idea.
@ JoeBlow,You're probably right...He,(Bachman's pastor) could
distance himself from his words, but I highly doubt that God will from what he
declared. It boils down to one simple fact, if God spoke it, then there's no
room for debate. If he didn't, then the Mormons deserves all the ridicule and
criticisms for sounding arrogant. I'm LDS, and I would be very
uncomfortable with this statement if it was declared by any of the prophets or
apostles in and of themselves. But, because it was the Lord himself that
declared it through revelation, I therefore have no problem with it. Let's face
it, who among us is brave enough to tell God what he can or can't do, or say
what he wants? Not me, thank you.
This article tries to do to Bachmann what the far right tried (and is still
trying) to do to President Obama -- tie the politician to the positions and
viewpoints of his/her pastor. The difference is that President Obama rejected
the positions and viewpoints of his pastor while I am seeing nothing that says
Bachmann has rejected the positions and viewpoints of her pastor -- I would like
to hear more about whether she concurs with his positions and viewpoints, and
how it would affect the way she relates to people who are Latter-day Saints.I have no use for Bachmann. I think she would be an unmitigated
disaster as President, and is not in any way qualified for the position. She
would best serve the country by dropping out of the race for the Republican
nomination for president, going home, and shutting up. I just want people to
see her lack of qualifications based on HER and not someone to whom she has a
tie (except, perhaps, her husband to whom she has said she would submit).
Bro D says:"...we NEVER teach of other faiths...good or
bad."---Every time you tell a non-member or
prospective member "I know MY Church is the True Church", you're
telling them "I know YOUR Church is a False Church".That
is actually "teaching of other faiths... bad".
Wow, did everyone miss the salient question here? If the object of the article
is to elucidate on what Bachman thinks of Mormons (she isn't saying), shouldn't
the DN be talking to her former pastor, at the church she "recently"
switched from? BTW, this was a suggestion from my 9th grader, who
appears to have more journalistic inquisitiveness than the DN writers....
I was expecting some bigoted anti-Mormon preacher-speak. His opinion, and the
way he stated it, is pretty mild and respectful. All he's really saying is he
doesn't believe the LDS Church is true, but we already knew he thought that,
because he's not a member.
What else is her pastor going to say? Of course he doesn't agree with LDS
teachings. But I wish him well with the influence he has. May he be able to
bless lives and bring souls to Christ as best he can with the light and
knowledge he is willing to receive. For the rest of us who aren't
fettered with the same conflict-of-interest, I hope we will drink at the spring
itself. Read the Book of Mormon and examine LDS teachings at their source. They
are a breath of fresh air in a stale world, or to perpetuate the pastors water
analogy, they are a bubbling brook where once a stagnant pond prevailed.
@Bro.D 7:38You said - "I think what upsets Mormons is the fact
the we wholeheartedly believe in and practice Article of Faith #11 but other
religions don't."Sorry, but I disagree with this comment.
Bachmann's pastor is not trying to outlaw the LDS Church, nor are most other
pastors and ministers. They may criticize us or even condemn us, but that's
hardly the same thing. @RanchHand 7:58I believe Bro D's
point was, the LDS Church does not produce books, pamphlets or videos which
attack specific religious denominations. For example, in all the years I've been
LDS I have yet to read or hear a General Conference talk or Ensign article
condemning the Catholic, Methodist or Baptist Churches.Of course, I
know many people who will be quick to point to the First Vision story where
Joseph Smith claims he was told all church's were an "abomination" but
this hardly tells the whole story. I invite everyone to read M.
Russell Ballard's October, 1994 General Conference talk entitled, "Restored
Truth" to gain a better perspective on how the LDS Church sees men such as
Luther, Calvin and others as inspired men.
@Andermart 8:44Excellent point! Could not have said it better
ClarkHippo,In all my years of attending LDS meetings - in the
trenches where the real opinions are expressed - I have yet to sit through a
block of meetings where an "anti-" comment against another religion
was NOT made.It is disingenuous to claim the LDS Church does not
preach against other religions. That is just not true. The official LDS
Scriptures not only contain horrible attacks on all other religions, and
Conference talks such as Holland's attack on Trinitarian theology a few years
ago, but the common LDS member is involved in almost weekly "bashing"
of other religions in testimony meetings, Gospel Doctrine lessons, and
Priesthood and RS discussions.Just last Sunday a woman bore her
testimony expressing thanks that she has found "the only true Church",
and expressed sorrow for all those people in other Churches who were still
"floundering in darkness". Then the HP Group Leader led a discussion
of how silly are the doctrines of "saved by faith/grace" in other
Churches, one of which he mentioned by name as his former Church.Do
LDS recognize the testimonies of "former," "apostate"
Mormons? Then why do you accept the testimonies of "apostates" from
Pretty much ALL Pastors / Clergy feel the same way about Mormon beliefs so why
should we care about what Bachmann's Pastor feels?.....remember, it's publicity
- free publicity. Be grateful that news organizations are all over this stuff
this election cycle and enjoy the ride.
Andermart,I have "drunk at the spring itself" - the Book
of Mormon, and I found it far less refreshing and more "stale" than
anything any other religion preaches from.But a
"testimony" like mine is not likely to get passed the DN Editorial
Staff, even though your comment is a blatant attack on other religions as being
"stagnant".The LDS people are known for their myopia and
biased view of the world whereby everything LDS is praised and everything
non-LDS is denigrated.
"If he didn't, then the Mormons deserves all the ridicule and criticisms
for sounding arrogant. "Well, If I were going to start a
religion, that is pretty much what I would say.So, either you
believe JS or you dont. But, he certainly could have had a reason to say that,
whether or not it was true.So, you have to take that into account.
The pastor is correct. For a car to run properly it needs a "pure"
source of power. Of course, the Mormons believe just the opposite of the pastor,
i.e., that the pure word of God was restored to Joseph Smith, and that it's the
other churches which are running on something contaminated.
Either way you look at it, it's still good exposure and will make more people
want to learn more.
Beliefs are not the real issue for the anti-Mormon clergy. It's dollars. Mormon
ministers are unpaid. The clergy has a vested interest in keeping Mormonism
I didn't think this pastor said anything offensive. If there is no controversy,
what is the point of this article?
I'm glad to see that I'm not alone in thinking this article is a bit of a
stretch to try and stir up some religious controversy about Bachmann. What the
pastor said is a perfect example of someone respectfully disagreeing with
another religion. We all think our religion is right and everyone else's is
wrong otherwise we would all belong to the same church. It is a far cry from
say Obama's pastor saying all white people are evil, or Huckabee basing his
entire presidential campaign on his claim that Mormons are "bad for
I would like to suggest an analogy, flawed thought it might be: Orange
juice.First of all, there is pure, unadulterated 100% orange juice.
This could be compared to original Christianity. If you leave it in the sun for
any length of time, it goes bad and eventually separates into various liquids
and solids. After some time, foreign bacteria and mold get into the mix and
corrupt it. This is what Mormons would call the great apostasy. Now if some
geniuses add grapefruit, tangerine, and nectarine juice, some left over orange
concentrate, throwing in some pineapple, vitamins and minerals for good measure,
they can create an orange cocktail, but it's just not real orange juice. This
is equivalent to the reformation.Now what would happen if you went
into a grove of trees and found some fresh oranges, and used them to make brand
new, unadulterated 100% orange juice? Then you start giving it away. Do you
think that people selling the remains of the original juice, or even orange
cocktail might be just a tad jealous? Do you think that they might try to
misrepresent your pure orange juice? True orange juice lovers will find your
@RanchHand"Every time you tell a non-member or prospective
member "I know MY Church is the True Church", you're telling them
"I know YOUR Church is a False Church"."--------The official doctrine is "only true and living" church
(D&C 1:30). Note the "and living" part. That means it is guided by
revelation, a prophet, and the authority given by the Savior. I don't know of
any other Christian church that even makes the claim to be guided by revelation
and prophets. So, to claim that the LDS Church is the "only true and
living" church is making a claim that no other Christian church even wants
to claim. So, technically, it shouldn't be considered offensive, since the LDS
Church is the only one making the claim. To say that the LDS Church
is the "only true" church while leaving out the "and living"
part is leaving out the full claim - only true AND living. Therefore, it does
not mean that other churches are false, but that they are not "living"
- meaning they are not guided by prophets and revelation. It doesn't mean that
they don't have truth - they do - and LDS leaders acknowledge that.
@ ClarkHippoI'm afraid you missed the whole point. I was
referring to the apparent opposition to "priestcraft", or preaching
for wages, that was evident in these verses; which other pastors may find
offensive, and view as a threat to their livlihood, were it to catch on in their
congregations.I was presenting that as a possible reason for their
opposition to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.Sorry
you misunderstood. It wasn't the sentencing to death for killing Gideon that I
was referring to (in fact, that wasn't even in the scriptures I referenced).
People like Merritt always like to throw in stats after negative comments to
make it seem like they actually understand LDS faith. "SEE, I did
research.." but you've never actually read the BoM so how can you say its
diluting the Word.
Actually the gasoline car fuel is a great analogy he just interprets it
incorrectly. Gasoline burning in cars puts out a lot of pollution, just look at
the Salt Lake Valley much of the year. What the LDS church doctrine does is not
dilute the gasoline but purify the fuel to a non-polluting energy source.
Vanka wrote at 9:15 a.m.:"The LDS people are known for their myopia
and biased view of the world whereby everything LDS is praised and everything
non-LDS is denigrated."There's too much truth in the last
sentence, but not in the last phrase: " . . . everything non-LDS is
denigrated." LDS music is filled with non-LDS composers, as well as LDS.
The Choir performs music every Sunday from non-LDS sources. The art used by the
Church in their buildings and publications, movies, etc., is often by non-LDS
artists, and the scultures we revere are sometimes from non-LDS people.
Christian writers like C.S. Lewis are frequently admired and studied by LDS
readers, and history that is fair to the LDS Church is written by non-LDS as
well as LDS authors.LDS people are sometimes myopic (as are most
groups of varied people taken as a whole), and often we are so insulated we
don't realize how our words may sound to others. But few have any intent to
denigrate.I understand your testimony, Vanka, and I respect it, but
you are capable of being more fair than this.
Christian churches have a big problem with the teachings found in Gospel
Principles chapter 47. Christians consider it heresy to think that men will
become gods. Past editions of Gospel Principles go as far as to say that
exalted man will have sprit children that will have the same relationship with
their exalted-man father as we have with our Heavenly Father. All Christian
denominations consider this blasphemy. I think that is the main reason
Christian denominations "attack" LDS beliefs. One thing
to consider- is pointing out the differences between mormonism and Biblical
Christianity reallyb "attacking"?
And when you take a car and put sugar and other things in the gas tank so that
it doesn't work what do you do?You find the Owner and see if He
wants it repaired or replaced.The problems with this sentence are
the definition of "repair", "replace" and both meanings of
"restored". I shall use "replaired" for "fixed" as
in a "restored vintage car"; and "replaced" as in a modern
made Springfield replacing one that is so corrupted by termites and rust that
the Owner must start over again and "restore" it to as it originally
was.To repair the car with the same people who broke it, or another
group who just claimed ownership is one thing. But to reboot, restart, replace
or restore with another new made Springfield is definately different.If the "falling away" didn't already occure, when in the future will
it and how will it look?
Utes @ 10:45 - Thank you for stating the point I was trying to form in my mind,
in order to comment on the "false church" remarks. Any church that
teaches faith in God and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Savior in order to attain
eternal life, is teaching truth. Our church is indeed the "true and living
church" because we claim divine authority and the keys of the Priesthood,
and operate under the leadership of prophets and apostles, and believe in
continuing revelation. I was not able to serve a full-time mission,
but I did serve a stake mission and never once, in our training, were we
instructed to find out what church a person attended and point out why that
church is wrong, and hope they would accept our church by default. I can't
imagine an approach like that would ever be successful.
Utah state motto: Our Jesus is better than your Jesus. I
guess some just get upset when others play the same game.
Andre - the list of dishonored republicans is just as long and really doesn't
prove anything other than both Republicans and Democrats are human and subject
to all the problems that brings.As to the "true"
church.... perhaps the LDS is the "true" church, but that doesn't
discount that other churches have a great deal of truth inside them as well, and
that the idea that their members are any less faithfull becuase of their
membership is boarderline vanity and pride. At the end of the day,
it doesn't matter which building you attend church in if what you learned there
is not reflected in your behaviour and how you treat your fellow travelers.
Membership means nothing without meaningful actions attached.Lets
try a little less "my team is better than your team" and a little more
practicing what we preach.
One thing all candidates need to consider regardless of whether they personally
agree with the beliefs in the LDS church or not is how they plan to represent
this small group of people within the United States and other groups of people
within this country?Would any of these candidates deny my right to
worhsip as I so choose?
Let us suppose that one witnesses the commission of a crime, and provides
testimony of all he knows.Now suppose another witnessed the event
from a different angle and provided testimony of all he knows. Suppose he can
provide additional detail.Would you say that witness #2 is
"diluting" the testimony of witness #1? Would you say that
conviction becomes impossible (doesn't work) because of the additions provided
by witness #2?Silly, silly argument. Perhaps Michelle's pastor
should actually read the testimony added in the second witness.
Simple reading the Ten Commandments and Leviticus 23 and 26 show Christianitiy
is a watered down religion. The minister who ignores God's commanded 7th day
Sabbath and God's commanded Holy Days of Rest, (Not to be changed-Deut.
4:2)should not block another church from saving souls. Jesus said to live by
EVERY word out of the mouth of God. Leviticus 23 and 26 give God's other
SABBATHS and terrors for not following them.It is hard to read the
Doctrines and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ and not fear the words of
Jesus revealing more truth and light, the fulness of the Gospel. The scriptures
specifically say it is restoring what was lost due to unrighteousness. Malachi 4
sends another prophet.LDS restored two treasuries and the storehouse
mentioned in scripture, and restored the priesthood and order OF THE CHURCH. The
Consecrations are God establishing His rewards as He said. We give Him our
property; He owns it and makes us stewards of that property or other and HE
provides for the needs of our stewardship. WE block the Kingdom of God on earth
by ignoring Doctrines and Covenants and God through Joseph Smith Jr.
Hey Dukie: Which Baptist group are you referring to? There are so many different
ones. I actually have a Baptist neighbor who dropped off their pamphlet talking
about how they were the church from the time of Christ. It was just a speech
from some dude but until that point, I had never heard the Baptist claim that
they have authority from Christ.I did look into it back then and
found that not many Baptist groups claim that any longer. It's been disputed by
many so in my opinion it holds no water.----Some folks
need to read the article more closely. Bachmann just joined this church. The
pastor gave his speech in 2007. She hasn't sat in this church for years like
some are trying to state like Obama did with Wright. She's innocent in this.For the poster who claimed Obama denounced Rev. Wright, nothing could be
further from the truth. Obama stated clearly that he could never denounce the
man who married him and who baptized his children.
As Obama showed us in the last election, just because your minister preaches it
from the pulpit, doesn't mean that's what you yourself believe. We have no idea
what Mrs. Bachmann believes until she actually comes out and says what she
'Obama stated clearly that he could never denounce the man who married him and
who baptized his children.' - @Charles | 12:54 p.m. Sept. 7, 2011
And so it begins...
I have always heard that you should try to never bring up religion or politics.
I can see why. However, some criticism of a persons religion never really hurt
anything. Maybe Michelle's pastor would like to know what Mormons think of his
brand of religion. We respect his religion, his freedom of opinion and speech
and would hope that he will offer the same courtesy.
I think the article was respectful,fair, and honest. Mormonism and Christianity
have vast, irreconcilable differences,both can't be true.
So are we supposed to care what Bachmann's pastor thinks of Mormonism? Has he
said anything that hasn't already been said by a bazillion other evangelicals?
OK, he made an analogy of how he believes that Mormonism dilutes the gasoline we
put in our spiritual gas tanks. Fine, if he wants to think that my belief in
the Book of Mormon dilutes my understanding and belief of the Bible, I won't
lose any sleep over that opinion. And I'm sure he won't lose any sleep when I
tell him that I respectfully disagree with his opinion. I believe that my
belief in the Book of Mormon enriches my belief in and understanding of the
Bible. The Book of Mormon is a spiritual octane booster.
It's kinda funny, chachi tries to give writing lessons, but apparently didn't
read the article. The pastor was identified, clearly by first name and the
writer indicated his position. These little tricks to attack writers because
they criticize the beloved conservative GOP folks in this presidential race are
too common in this forum. Why do so many LDS people support the Tea Party and
their insane candidates? They do not like our religion and they do not like us,
period! If you put Tea Party candidates in a room and asked them to speak
candidly about the church, I have no doubt that they would say shockingly
prejudiced things. The same things that they say openly about other groups that
they don't like. Today they hate immigrants, homosexuals, and welfare moms,
tomorrow they'll hate Mormons, minorities and people who don't wave US flags
from their car windows at all times. They hate this country and the people in
it, when are the conservatives in the church who defend these candidates going
to wake up? Probably after you all elect more of them and they continue to
dismantle the Constitution, our civil liberties, and our nation.
However, if a fuel additive is used in conjuction with the petroleum, you
actually increase the performance of the engine. The Book of Mormon does not
take place of the Bible, but is considered an addition to it to help explain
things more clearly.
thebigsamoan...Sorry, the accurate reference is Lev. 27:30-34
In fairness the pastor represented the Christian belief accurately while the
article misrepresented the Mormon belief stating that Mormons hold the Bible to
be the Word of God, when in fact they believe it to be missing many "Plain
and Precious truths" and that changes have been introduced to the bible
over time. That is intentionally meant to be deceptive in order to
place mormons on an equal footing with Christians. When in reality Mormons do
not hold the Bible we have today in the same regard as the BOM, rather "The
Bible as it was in it's original form". However, that caveat is never
provided. So tell me, was it the Christian Pastor, or the Mormon
author of the article who was truly misrepresenting the Mormon church?
Just a note: Mrs. Bachmann herself did not say this, her pastor did. He is
entitled to his opinion. It doesn't necessarily make his opinion correct. The
great thing about America, and interestingly the Gospel of Jesus Christ, is that
we have FREE AGENCY. We are free to think as we choose. Right or wrong, win or
lose. Our only limitation is us -- at least for the moment. We are rapidly
losing those freedoms we hold dear and we should stick together and stick to the
topic of those freedoms and stop trying to out-religious one another. How about
we let our brothers and sisters think and believe what they want to so long as
they don't push their beliefs off on others without invitation. If someone asks
me a question about the church, I will answer them. When they are finished with
the topic, I move on. They are not obligated to believe as I do and their not
doing so does not change MY beliefs. What a boring world it would be if we all
followed the same thinking. I am a Latter Day Saint. If that bothers you, move
A voice of Reason, Yet so many will deny these truths in the bible in order to
fight God's true church. You are a priest forever, According to the
order of Melchizedek, who, in the days of His flesh(Jesus), when He had offered
up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able
to save Him from death, and was heard because of His godly fear(Hebrews
5:6,7).In context Jesus.Clark Hippo said, For example, in all the
years I've been LDS I have yet to read or hear a General Conference talk or
Ensign article condemning the Catholic, Methodist or Baptist Churches???The mocking of non-Mormon preachers caused so much criticism against the
Mormon Church that Mormon leaders determined that now God wanted this sacred
portion of the ceremony removed. Therefore on April 10,1990, this dialog
as well as any hints of ridicule of preachers was eliminated.Although Mormon leaders are trying to present a positive image to the public
Yet, all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, that their professors
were corrupt(JS History 1:19)
@ Moracle | 2:48 a.m. Sept. 7, 2011 Blackshear, GAWow! You
absolutely nailed it!My guess is hardly 1 in 10 paid clergymen would
be willing to adopt a new paid profession if they found out the truth of the
Book of Mormon, i.e., I suspect most of them would not teach the words of Christ
if they weren't paid for it.Sad.
Religion has no place in politics, and politics has no place in religion, but
the media just can't seem to keep the two separated.As for senior
pastor Bob Merritt's evaluation of Mormonism, he fails to point out exactly what
part of the Gospel the Mormons practice that has been diluted. If, as the Savior
say, "ye shall know them by their fruits," I would be willing any day
to compare apples and oranges between his church's version of the Gospel and
that of the LDS Church and see which truly is more fruitful.
I read that some posters on here find it offensive that the LDS church claims to
be the only 100% true church.And yet, can anyone imagine Jesus
Christ coming down from Heaven and saying "I will teach you the words and
teachings of God! Well, that is unless you believe differently, then, hey,
that's cool with me, ya know, because what you believe is true even if it
differs from what God and I say."Ridiculous, isn't it?Based on the depiction of events in the Bible, that would be utter nonsense.
Yes, Christ was both loving and kind to the n-th degree, but that does NOT mean
that He was wishy-washy or mealy-mouthed about what was true and Godly and what
was not.And, even if one did not believe 100% in the Bible, it is
simply foolish to believe that God must yield to man and not man who must yield
to God. It frustrates and dissapoints me tremendously how many posters on
DesNews stories involving religion believe that if they believe something it
must be true.I believe what I believe because God told me it is
true, not because I like it.
There is hardly anything surprising or controversial about this preacher's
comments. It is their mantra. What he preaches is not necessarily what Bachmann
believes or disseminates. No, I do not support her, but this is more like a
tempest in a teapot, or much ado about nothing. And I am a life-long, active
member. Neither Romney nor Huntsmen have shown me anything yet in this campaign,
I am sad to say.
Wow, so many have read so much into this article! I'm amazed at the attack
speech here. Not surprised though that the same ID's show up over and over
again. Hurray to those who found a positive way to approach this article!
Especially LDSareChristians in Anchorage.
This is not news. Maybe we should find our what Romney's and Huntsman's Stake
President thinks about Evangelical Christians. Come on now. Really?
Diluted? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints takes the pollution
out, and what is left is the pure living water of Jesus Christ, so simple a
child can understand. :-)
This is the common approach is if you don't know about some then listen for
about 5 minutes to anybody then tal about it as though you are an expert and add
your own guesses about it as though that was total truth! Every body thought
the world was flat until some one with an open mind and integrity went sailing
and brought back the truth; now the world isn't so flat anymore. If candidates
want to know some thing about an idea or an item then go to the source and
listen. That does not mean you believe every thing you heard but at least you
went to a reliable source and listened. She could talk to some Mormon
Missionaries or to some local LDS members and listen to them. Does not mean she
has to become a member, but become informed.
To say that to make the claim that God can no longer communicate with his
modern day children is silly. It says in Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord God will do
nothing except he communicate through his prophet. Why wouldn't God not give
guidance to his children in modern days. Remember, many years have passed
between the time Christ was on the earth and now. Down through the ages,
ancinet doctrines were lost. There was a need to restore these ancient doctrines
that were changed over time. Why is it so hard to believe that Christ would not
restore these truths before the second coming. It all hinges on whether Joseph
Smith really talked to God. If he did that is the most important communication
ever in modern times. I know that he did and beg you to read the Book of Mormon
to know of its truthfulness.
This is one of the worst newspaper articles I've read in years. Other than
stirring up interest from 150+ readers enough to comment/complain, this has
absolutely no newsworthiness of any kind. The only reason why I would think
such an article could find its way onto a Utah newspaper would be if the writer
and editor assume that all congregants everywhere follow their religious leaders
to a tee, even so much as to speak for them. Well I hate to break it to you,
but it's not the case, yes, even among Mormons. Unless Bachmann has said that
her pastor speaks her mind and will, don't put this out there. Your readers are
not that stupid. Please give us something better than this.
If this is what Bachmann holds to be true, (what this so-called pastor
professes) then that should be one good reason not to vote for her...the
tolerance of her and her pastor are obviously shorted sighted, immature and
petty. Any person who has these character traits deserves nobody's respect or
support. The Mormons have done nothing but help mankind become better for 150
years; anybody that belittles that philosophy should be eschewed. It appears to
me that all those holy Christians love and respect the Mormons and have nothing
but praise for them when they need their money and commitment to pass certain
legislation, oh how the praise flows then, but when that support is no longer
needed, all those loving Christians go right back to criticizing the Mormons and
their faithI think the whole Christian thing is a pathetic façade.
Finally a reason for Michele Bachman's Utah supporters to disapprove.
At least when I go to church I don't have to worry about someone preaching about
another religion. We are taught the gospel of Jesus Christ. But having served a
mission with my husband basically people change churches because this pastor is
nicer or better than another one and pastors preach against other churches to
keep his congregation otherwise his paycheck gets smaller. It's all about money
but the LDS Bishops hold regular jobs and volunteer their time to the church as
do all those holding positions in the church. How can you preach tolerance
and loving thy neighbor when you are verbally abusing anothers? What kind of
example is that? I will not make a decision on someone religion and as yet it
too early for me to decide. We have yet to see their true colors. Perry
concerns me with his history of being a campaign manager in Texas for Al Gore.
Talk about flip flop. Just sayin..
The pastor in question should learn the word "obfuscation." What he
really means is the additional Mormon theology, history, and organizational
structure "obfuscates" what he considers to be the truth. The fuel
analogy is fallacious logic. Adding alcohol, oxidizers or stabilizers actually
makes gasoline burn cooler, provide smoother and greater power, and prevents
premature wear of the engine. But that's the sort of analogy you'd expect from
somebody who doesn't really understand either Christianity or Mormonism, and
there's a lot of that in both camps.
The right wing was making a stink about Obama's pastor. Isn't it fair to do the
same for one of their own?
To Esquire | 6:27 a.m. Sept. 8, 2011 Springville, UT The right wing
was making a stink about Obama's pastor. Isn't it fair to do the same for one of
their own? --------------------------Exactly right. AND
I would point out that there's a difference between Bachmann and President
Obama. When President Obama found out what his pastor was saying, and had been
saying, President Obama (while not renouncing the man himself) denounced and
renounced what his pastor was saying and had said, and left the congregation.
Bachmann, on the other hand, joined her current congregation AFTER her pastor
had made his remarks, thereby ratifying them by affiliating herself with him and
his congregation. Only one of the two -- Bachmann -- has shown approval for
what the pastor said, and should be held to account for that fact
You mess with my religious beliefs you are not a friend at all..is like you love
Jesus but hate His beliefs
Esquire,The difference with Jeremiah Wright is that he preached
anti-America garbage. Wright: "America's chickens are coming
home to roost" following the 9-11 attacks "then wants us
to sing 'God Bless America.' No, no, no..."(please go find the rest, as I
can't type it here).Do I care if a potential president's pastor
doesn't agree with LDS doctrine? No, because if he agreed he'd be LDS.Do I care that a potential president's pastor for over 20 years, described as
a family member, spewed all this anti-American rhetoric? Yes, because Wright
made it political. Obama only left the church when he started getting heat for
it and it was making him look bad.
I'm so grateful that we live in a free country where we are free to choose
whatever religion we choose to participate in. The Lord also gave all of us our
freedom to choose. I agree that Utah is a Republican state, just as there are
many other states in this country that are mostly Democrat. For so many years I
followed what my parents political views were, just as most young people and
even older people for that matter do still. I challenge all of the American
people to investigate for themselves all of the candidates, their principles,
their values, their record and most importantly what they can do to HELP this
country! Teach your children and grandchildren to do the same. Then go to the
polls and vote what your heart and soul.
@ Vanka:You miss my point. There is so much good in so many faiths,
and in their members, that I cannot even begin to enumerate them all. That is
not the issue. But when so many of these faiths, by their own
definitions, deny the continuation of revelation from their Heavenly Father,
this in itself severs them from the brooklet of living water, Jesus Christ, and
leaves them but to splash in the sitting pool of thousands of years gone by. As
members of the Church of Jesus Christ, we hallow, revere and use the Holy Bible,
but we do not dam the stream that feeds that reservoir. The dilution
Ms. Bachmann's good pastor alludes to is the influx of fresh, clean, pure living
water ever flowing in from the well of life. We should all welcome the kindness
and concern of The Water Giver who takes an interest in our lives today, as He
did anciently, and who has provided a way, that all His children may be washed
clean. We would all do well to seek it, and to be refreshed by it.
wow. what a radical statement toward LDS from a protestant minister. NOT !Seriously, this was news-worthy ? It's so commonplace and repeated in
America today that it's exactly what most people have heard about the LDS church
I am not in Utah, and was not born in Utah. However, many of my ancestors were
killed because of their religious affiliation with LDS church. They were driven
out of a beautiful city they built and crossed this country to an area where
there were was no one to persecute them. They built a beautiful State, and then
let anyone who wanted to enter. To every one who would think that because a
candidate for president, is a "mormon" would therefore make a bad
President. I believe there are good and and bad in all people, regardless of
the religious affiliation. I grew up in Nevada and had many friends that were
of various faiths, we did not make exception because we did not go to the same
church. I have been taught all my life, that we have Freedom of religion in this
his country, as well as freedom of the press.
And with a name like "The Eagle Brooks Church", you just know IT HAS
to be true........NOT
Andermart,I did not miss your point at all.You wrote:"But when so many of these faiths, by their own definitions, deny
the continuation of revelation from their Heavenly Father,"To
what faiths are you referring?Catholicism does not deny continuation
of revelation from Heavenly Father. Neither does Orthodox Christianity. Most
Protestant faiths I have studied do not deny continual revelation, either. Most
Islamic sects does not deny continual revelation.I don't think you
truly understand other faiths. That, in itself, is a problem.
The fact that the Deseret News is COMPLETELY dominated by the LDS Church should,
in itself, disqualify it as an impartial news outlet.If LDS doctrine is
"pure truth" what happened to the "pure truth" in re the
blacks and polygamy. How come the LDS leaders are now "downsizing" the
Book Of Abraham and it's impact in the formation of the doctrines of the Mormon
religion?Because they are now of the opinion that the BOA is not "pure
truth" and it was not a translation of the word of God or Abraham. Their
progression to this stance went like this 1) The papyri is lost and no one can
disprove Joseph Smith's translation 2)The papyri has been found and now we'll
prove that Joseph Smith has really translated the"word" of God 3) The
papyri was found to contain nothing about Abraham; ergo "there were other
scrolls that Joseph Smith used to do the translation 4)The Egyptian facimiles
found in the BOA were the same symbols found in the recently (1966) discovered
scrolls; ergo " The BOA was not an important facet of the LDS
religion". If you don't believe me LOOK IT UP!
I thought it was interesting that the Pastor talked about the LDS faith adding
to the gospel of Jesus Christ AND (at the same time) claimed that the tenets
subscribed to by the LDS faith were watered-down. So did they ADD something (or
many things)? Or, did they water down His gospel? From what I know about the
Mormon faith, they have added a whole lot. But, I also know that they believe
in continuing revelation, so what many may consider to be "added" they
(Mormons) consider to be "explained" or "restored" from what
has been lost in translation over many years.
Furry1993"When President Obama found out what his pastor was
saying, and had been saying, President Obama (while not renouncing the man
himself) denounced and renounced what his pastor was saying and had said, and
left the congregation"It is laughable to buy into the notion
that Obama was not aware of the hate, racial discord and hatred for the US that
Wright was preaching. By Obama's own words, Wright was his spiritual mentor.
Then you must include the radical messages of racial discord and hate regularly
preached by Michael Pfleger as well. Pfleger and Wright have been
preaching racial hatred from the first day they stepped up to the pulpit at
Trinity United Church, and this has been proven to all who care to learn the
truth about these two radicals who use religion to stir racial discord and
unrest. Everything about Obama's leaving Wright's Trinity United
congregation can be summed up in two words -political expediency. Wright even
called Obama out for leaving Trinity United, and Wright truthfully and
accurately described Obama's actions as political posturing. You can
be the most hard core Obama fan if you want to, but it is time that people hold
Chachi said...........Also, I think it's a bit funny that the Deseret News
apparently feels it necessary to explain to its audience that Mormons believe in
the Book of Mormon, but not to explain that "LDS," "Mormon,"
and "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" refer to the
same thing. Is there any logic guiding this writing? Chachi, the
name of the church is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
"Mormon" is a nickname used mostly by non-members. Most members use
Latter Day Saint or LDS to refer to the church. Non-members use
"Mormon" when referring to the official church but also to the
un-recognized Fundamentalist group that people confuse as being a part of the
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. (They are NOT.) There is nothing
funny or unusual about explaining that LDS believe in both the Bible and the
Book of Mormon since many people do not know that.
There will always be questions and comments made about our Church because they
lack true understanding and knowledge of the Truth. Hopefully someday those
questions will be answered by an active member of The Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints and they too will experience the peace and surety that it is
Ultra conservatives are anti Mormon because most of them are very conservative
Christians who have an interpretation of the Bible that emphasizes the
differences among various religions rather than the similarities. These ultra conservatives do the same thing when it comes to discussing what
it means to be an American. Most of them believe that they are Americans
without a hyphen...although the only Americans without a hyphen are native
Americans.Despite all their repeated attempts to vilify Mormons as
non christian, Mormons, at least those in Utah, will continue to vote for them
if they are on a national ticket. Amazing!
Why can't Bachmann speak for herself? I don't have my bishop speak my opinion on
The fact of the matter is that her pastors attack on Mormonism is routed in a
disagreement with it religiously. We should welcome such expressions. Yes, in
an ideal world we could get people to see the truth of our religion, but that
will not happen with everyone. Where that does not happen what we
want is for people to admit that their disagreements with us are rooted in
theological issues. When people admit to disagreement on theology things work.
The problem is when they try to frame what is really theological disagreements
in other terms.The fact that the pastor of a Church disagrees with
the religion of a different Church is hardly news, and clearly not grounds to
attack someone for being a member of that Church.
And THAT ladies and gentlemen is what makes this country wonderful. Everyone
doesn't have to agree.
Vanka, your points against Andermart are entirely unfounded.According to your post, these other religions supposedly believe in ongoing
revelation... right?So why is it that people who believed in ongoing
revelation would persecute Joseph Smith for saying that he saw God?Why is it that even to this day, every time I personally speak with someone of
another 'Christian' faith, I meet hostility when referencing these very specific
beliefs.Why is it that so many other 'Christians' believe that no
other book besides the Bible could have "God's word"?Why
is it that you are frequently criticizing the LDS Church on here?Andermart is absolutely not the one who is not understanding other religions
here. Consider this- when each time you comment about the LDS Church, so many
members on these comment sections take issue with your interpretation of our
beliefs? You claimed that Andermart does not understand other beliefs. But this
actually only shows that it is you who do not understand us.Look up
"revelation" on wikipedia. While there are certainly other religions
that do support the idea. No other religion places as much emphasis on direct,
'real' or 'person to person' as the LDS Church.
I was under the impression there was supposed to be something offensive to
Mormons? Don't we say similar things in reverse about sects that we think are
wayward and don't have the full gospel of Jesus Christ? He didn't say anything
unkind, he just disagreed. I'm fine with that.
@Pasta: maybe you should READ the article! The pastor said these things years
ago. Bachmann is new to this church. She will speak for herself and she's not
claiming that the pastor is speaking for her.btw, you don't speak of
the LDS church either as you are often of the mind to do on here.----Anyone know where LDS Lib went? I thought for sure he'd back
up his rhetoric when asked to do so.
A voice of Reason, So why is it that people would persecute Joseph Smith for
saying that he saw God? Contradictions,Joseph Smith, Lectures on Faith, Q.
What is the Father? A. He is a personage of glory and of power. (5:2.).
Brigham Young (JOD v 1 p 49-50): "The Lord fills the immensity of
space. What saith the Psalmist[139:7-10]? Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or
whither shall I flee from thy presence.God[is]spirit(pneuma,)(John
4:24 Greek N.T.)No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only
who is at the Fathers side has made him known (John 1:18 NIV).Moses
saw Him who is invisible (Hebrews 11:27) Moses saw Gods shekinah glory.A Voice,Why is it that you are frequently criticizing the LDS Church on here?
John Taylor, What! are Christians ignorant? Yes.as ignorant of the things
of God as a brute beast (JoD v,6 p.25). One of many Mormon comments on
A voice of Reason,Unfounded? Tell that to Pope John Paul II, to the
Ecumenical Patriarchate (Bartholomew, or His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios in
America), or to any number of Protestant theologians and leaders. You will find
you are sadly mistaken.Why did they persecute Joseph Smith for
saying that he saw God?If an inactive, seemingly uncommitted 14 year
old Mormon told his Bishop or Stake President he had a personal visit from God
and Jesus, don't you think their reaction would be interpreted as
"persecution"?More importantly, none of your rhetorical
questions make a single valid point.With whom do you speak in other
faiths? Common members, or the top leaders? Thinking you "know" other
faiths based on speaking to common members is as silly as people claiming they
"know" LDS doctrine from talking with common members (70% of whom are
"inactive" worldwide).Wikipedia? Are you seriously going
to invoke that as a source? And then backpeddle, claiming it is a matter of
"emphasis"?My friend, with all due respect (if any), you
have completely proven my point. You (and most LDS) do NOT understand other
"No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only who is at the Fathers
side has made him known (John 1:18 NIV)."Then went up Moses,
and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel: And
they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work
of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness. And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand:
also they saw God, and did eat and drink. Ex 24:9-11
Sharrona,First, you missed the point of my comment. I wasn't
actually asking why Joseph Smith was persecuted. I was showing the weakness of
Vanka's claim. To say 'Joseph Smith wasn't fought with because he claimed to
have plates' is an erroneous claim. Even most anti-Mormon's would agree with
what I'm saying.It would be like another commenter saying 'Sharrona
doesn't disagree with VOR.' Do you see the problem? That's the main point I
made.Second, you quoted my persecution statement and tried to
address it. I'm having a hard time understanding why anyone would focus on that
point. Do you believe that persecuting Mormon's is okay?Third, did
you actually read my comment on Page 2 before you started attacking me?VOR claims: One cannot be a believing Christian and be anti-LDS, as they fight
their own Bible in doing so.VOR references: These people who call
themselves Christian fight doctrines in the Bible, such as Genesis 32:30 &
Exodus 33:11 (fyi, the first two scriptures I referenced).Reply: 'No
on has seen God'I now look at this conversation and wonder- how is
it possible that people call good evil and evil good?
Is this news....just another pastor trying to hold onto his parishoner.
Professional Jealosy extends clear into the clergy. As if they were even
qualified to offer this kind of counsel. Just another of many from the wolf
packs that enter in attemp;ting to destroy the flock in various ways,
Vanka, not sure you know what many Christian churches actually teach. I've had
several Evangelical Christian friends tell me that revelation ended with the
Bible and that there is no more need for apostles or prophets. Sharonna- Well yes back when John Taylor was alive people didn't know the
scriptures or understand their doctrine about God. Infact, I'm not so sure
things have changed much.
O'really,You obviously have the wrong friends.So, when
some unknown, common LDS person tells me people's blood actually, literally
changes into the blood of the tribe of Israel when they are baptized into the
Mormon church, I am supposed to believe that?If not, then why would
you believe your "friends" instead of the leaders and theologians of
@Andermart;It isn't "revelation", it is hearsay.Someone says that god spoke to them. They provide no proof, no recording, no
video, they just say it.Hearsay.Run away. Run away very
fast. Do not look back (or you might become a pillar of salt).
O'really,Once your Evangelical friends are leaders with official
doctrinal responsibility, let me know.Until then, it is clear that
LDS do not know other faiths, and this myth about LDS being the only religion
that believes in, much less has, "modern revelation" merely
illustrates the fact.
I know some "Christian" ministers of other denominations give a talk
every year or so about what is wrong, in their estimation, with the Mormon or
LDS or Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Maybe its a filler when
they run out of positive things to say...at any rate, their discourses are often
well-intended but come from false or incorrect information. Let each individual
read the scriptures, pray, and decide for themselves. Do not depend soley upon
what your minister has to say, for he is like the owner of Burger King saying
what is wrong with McDonalds, he is bound to say it is not as right or good as
what he is selling.
Crazy that Mormons consider themselves Christian...It's another gospel, not the
gospel of Jesus Christ.
Evangelical Christianity denies that LDS are "Christian" at least in
part because the LDS 3rd Article of Faith explicitly says people are saved
"by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [LDS] Gospel".Such a doctrine that salvation comes through the "works of the
law/Torah" is directly contrary to everything Paul wrote.As the
writings of Paul (31.57% of the NT text) are the earliest of the Biblical canon,
and cannot possibly be explained away by Mormon's doctrine of "the Great
Apostasy", for LDS doctrine to so blatantly disagree with Paul is prima
facie evidence that LDS are not Christian.Even if you cannot agree
with them, you must at least try to understand where Evangelicals are coming
@The Caravan Moves On:"I've been over this issue of
"adding to the Bible" many times with friends over the years and it
still completely baffles me as to why so many mainstream Christians have such a
hard time believing that God, if He wants to do so, cannot add anything to the
Bible."By admitting that God can add to the Bible would mean a
confession as to the truthfulness of the BofM. Pastors of other faiths don't
want to do that. It would mean they would lose their jobs.
Utah Republicans will vote for any Republican regardless of their feelings
towards the LDS Religion. Why they would choose to vote for a person who
believes Mormons are not Christians is a mystery.
zoar63,No man hath seen God at anytime, except[JS] he hath born record of his
Son].(John 1:19 JST) Exodus 24:9-11.Explained; Moses was with our
ancestors, the assembly of Gods people in the wilderness, when the Angel spoke
to him at Mount Sinai. And there Moses received life-giving words to pass on to
us. Acts 7:38 NLTfor I have seen God face to face, and my life is
preserved. Genesis 33:20. In the womb he grasped his brothers heel; as a man
he struggled with God. He struggled with the ANGEL and overcame him;(Hosea
12:3-4). Google theophanies. immortal, Invisible, the only God,(
1Tim 1:17)The Law and the *Prophets were proclaimed until John.(Luke
16:16)The office of *prophet.In the past God spoke to our ancestors
through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days
he has spoken to us by his Son(Hebrews 1:1,2).VOR, persecuting
Mormon's. Mormons often confuse persecuting with Christians telling Mormons
the truth in love.I left the Church when I became a Christian,25 years ago.
Vanka:You are misrepresenting the LDS 3rd article of faith. "We
believe that THROUGH THE ATONEMENT OF CHRIST, all mankind may be saved, by
obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel" To truncate the 3rd
article the way you did is chery picking out of it the words that you want. When
read as a whole, the 3rd AOF is absolutely clear that without Christ's attonment
NO ONE would be saved regardless of their faith and/or works. "for LDS doctrine to so blatantly disagree with Paul is prima facie
evidence that LDS are not Christian"What are the specific
points of LDS doctrine that disagree with the teachings of the Apostle Paul?
29 Else what shall they do which are baptized bfor the dead, if the
dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? 1 Cor 15:292 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body,
I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an
one caught up to the third heaven. 2 Cor 12:2Paul taught key
elements of LDS doctrine unique to the LDS
What is interesting about this and other so-called religious organizations is
they are practicing the reverse of the establishment clause of the Constitution.
You cannot have a differing religious viewpoint of what Christ is all about.
They will only accept the dogma of their viewpoint of what Christianity is all
about. Since they are so willing to reject a mormon as POTUS, how
about a quaker, baptist, luthern, catholic, menonite? To me, this is what the
Constitution is trying to prevent, only one religion is good enough, condemn all
@vic:"Since they are so willing to reject a mormon as POTUS,
how about a quaker, baptist, luthern, catholic, menonite? To me, this is what
the Constitution is trying to prevent, only one religion is good enough, condemn
all others."Tell that to guys like Huckabee and his Baptist
friends in the South. Apparently they don't possess copies of the US
Constitution so they can read up on were no religious test is to be made
regarding the office of the President of the United States.
To Vanka, Sharrona and Ranchhand;I think the real issue for us all
needs to be what do we personally believe about modern revelation. If we accept
it, then we can read the Book of Mormon and ask God, the Eternal Father, in the
name of His Son Jesus Christ, if it is inspired of God. If we can do so with
full purpose of heart, then I am confident that He will reveal the truth of it
to us. Can we all then agree that God will hear and answer that prayer if asked
in all sincerity? I too love you and desire all that God hath to be yours
through the eternities.May God bless.
What an observation that Mormonism doesn't work. But what about study after
study that shows Mormons are among the most devout Christians in the United
States, the social welfare system that assists thousands of people, and the
numerous other programs of the church that only succeed because of committed
Andermart,I appreciate the concession and sentiment of your last
comment, but I must respectfully decline to agree with you. I have prayed,
fasted, read, studied, listened, attended, paid, and done everything the LDS
Church and "Moroni's Promise" requires, and I have done so "with
full purpose of heart", "in all sincerity", "with real
intent", for about two decades, and it has been demonstrated to me that God
does NOT "hear and answer that prayer".As for your
"loving" me, you don't even know me, so please don't dilute and
cheapen the concept of love like that.22ozn44ozglass,I
did not misrepresent the 3rd Article of Faith. Despite the phrase "through
the Atonement of Christ", the statement still says that salvation comes
"by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the [LDS] Gospel".Many LDS falsely explain that "salvation" means resurrection,
which is given to all freely, but "exaltation" comes through righteous
works and ordinances.Such ideas are contrary to this Article of
Faith, unless you believe only people who obey the "laws and ordinances of
the gospel" will be "resurrected"?There is no doubt
LDS doctrine teaches salvation by "works" (of the law/Torah), contrary
to Paul's Christianity.
What any of the 2 political party candidates say doesn't make a particle of
difference anymore, because both parties have "corrupted themselves."
Because of this, and the fact that we have never had a major 3rd party that
holds the balance of power, our current Federal government seems to be headed
down the path to self-destruction (read Mosiah 29:25-30 & Helaman 5:2).
I listened to the sermon, and have not found any fact about the LDS Church to be
false. He quoted Mormon scripture and counsel from General Authorities. His
opinion differs from Mormons about God, salvation, etc. But he did not lie about
the church and was complimentary of Mormons.
Don't Mormons (myself included) believe that other religions are
"diluted," adding additional philosophies inspired by men to the words
of God? Like other readers, I did not find the comments very offensive. If
anything, I admire the good things spoken about the LDS Church even though I may
respecfully disagree with his or Ms. Bachman's religious principles. This
article makes much ado about nothing.
Chuckie..... you are correct in the baptist don't draw a direct line of
authority from a central early day church, because they believe that is not what
Peter setup as he did his travels. Rather, they believe it was individual
congregations that were left behind without a central church. The Catholic
church basically consolidated these churches under one authority, which during
the reformation, they claim they undid to return "the church" to its
original state in the 1600's.Thats their claim.... not saying it is
right.What is fact is that for the first couple of hundred years of
the early christian church, there were a lot of independent Christian churches
spread from Europe all the way down in to central Africa. Write, wrong, it was
what it was.
Is Michelle Bachmann relevant anymore, at this juncture?I believe she'll
be dropping-out of the race soon.
To put it bluntly, Christ himself could tell her pastor that Mormons are indeed
Christian but he wouldn't believe it. Sad state of affairs when a dude with so
much sway doesn't do a little honest research to understand what he's talking
I think the Pastor has it a little backward... in the car analogy... what the
Mormons have done is not DILUTE the gasoline, but have ADDED living energy and
restored "lost ingredients" that boost fuel efficiency and performance
so the car runs cleaner and with less pollution. And especially for modern cars
that need daily care as road conditions deteriorate and added safety equipment
and software updates (living prophets) are needed to enhance the ride, enjoy the
view, and convey the occupants to a safe return home.
In my 85 years, and many elections, the one that is soon upon us concerns me, we
have good men, as well as those who want power only, running for office. I do
not live in Utah, and was not born in Utah. However, my ancestors were driven
out of Nauvoo during the cold winter weather.and crossed the plains, some were
buried on the plains. I am grateful for their faith, the example they set for
me and others in their family. I have my own testimony of the Truthfullness of
the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and have had to cope with
others that would put the church down. I have discovered that what I need to do
is live the Gospel the way I have been taught, and pray for everyone that is
voting that they will vote for the person most suited for the job. Whether you
be Democrat, Republican, Tea Party,or other independent. Remember this is a
nation under God, and that we need to preserve it for our posterity. And to
Love our neighbors.
Just ask anyone about "someone elses" religion and you will get the
same answer. Hundreds of religions and all believe that the others are
From the looks of things, all the candidates are Christian. We are one nation
under God. No one would dare say that the immigrants from Scotland or Ireland
(my ancestry) are Christians but the American Indians who took great pains to
call upon the Great Spirit are not. I am a staunch member of The Church of JESUS
CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. Jesus Christ is my Savior and Redeemer. I have
many friends who I acknowledge as Christians because of their benevolence
towards their fellow beings and a genuine reverence for a Higher Being - a Deity
whom they know not by what name to call Him. The love I have for this nation is
that Americans of any status or religion get to run for President of the United
States. I like to see as many Americans who want to do so run as candidates for
the Oval Office. My only disappoint is that there are not more Native Americans
vying for that position.
How about the analogy that your car may be running on 85 octane but adding to
have more truth is liking raising octane to 93 instead of 85 or having jet
fueled engines vs gasoline engines!