Romney, like him or not, provides a very clear picture of a Romney White House.
Look at how he has handled things in the past, his current positions on 'the
issues' and you have your answer... a clear picture of Romney.Huntsman also paints a pretty clear picture. He plays the religion card only
when it suits him, which is dishonest. He was democrat with a republican mask.
He skates by on his fathers name, while Romney actually made a name for himself
before he jumped in the pool. A clear picture of overall blur by trying to throw
in every paint to suit every crowd. It's a facade, nothing more.
Both Romney and Hunstman are a bit strange, I don't think either one of them
would play in the White House. Thank goodness there are others to consider for
Too many people in this world are extremists. Bennett wasn't conservative
enough for the Tea Party. Pro-life democratic senators aren't allowed to speak
at the democratic convention. If Huntsman isn't completely orthodox he's "not a good Mormon".Seems to me that our soundbite
culture has expanded to our brains. We don't want to digest anything unless
it's oversimplified and black and white.
I am personally more concerned about the evangelical candidates than I am about
either Romney or Huntsman. Neither candidate would "push" their
religion on the American people in any way. The values learned as members of the
LDS church would only serve to enhance their abilities to be honorable, ethical
leaders. And I'm NOT saying that other religions are not honorable, as I have
many friends of other faiths who are very good people.I am concerned
when I read things such as: "(Gov. Rick) Perry's audience Saturday was
filled with people who sang with arms outstretched in prayer-and weptas
Christian groups played music on stage. And Perry, himself, huddled on the stage
in a prayer circle with several ministers who helped lead the event. It was
Perry's idea and was financed by the American Family Association, a Tupelo,
Miss.-based group that opposes abortion and gay rights and believes that the
First Amendment freedom of religion applies only to Christians." If I were Jewish, or Muslim, or any other non-Christian faith, this would be
very concerning to me. NOTHING wrong with a day of prayer, but it should include
So will the next article and discussion be on Perry and Bachmann's religion? Why
are we singling out people's religions?I'm glad they are not afraid to
speak of their beliefs whether it's not yours or mine. Plus, I don't feel ones
religion should play a big part into the political issues. As we see it hasn't
play any big part into Obama's. If anyone bring sit up he does a photo shoot of
he and his family walking into a church. And of course all the Rev. Wright
issues before he was elected. People complained and he stop going to he could be
elected. But do you really think he changed his thinking? I really doubt it.Churches have been doting America since the first immigrants arrived here and
it represents the majority. Stop beating the LDS religion to death and
listen to what the candidates are offering. My fear, Mitt will be elected
and everything he does will have a backlash to his religion but not Perry.
Pagan and Utah Girl:Pagan, your 'when pundits say that Obama's
'Mormon=weird' strategy will backfire' then "Someone outside the Mormon
faith does NOT talk about it, it's... 'bad.'"That simply didn't
make sense to me. Mind rephrasing? Side note: 'purported' isn't quite accurate.
If I started using 'weird' in saying 'weird forms of marriage', I think you and
everyone else would certainly know what how the word was directed.---Utah Girl,While I'm not sure I entirely understood
part of your statement, I would like to add a couple points. First, is that
being all-inclusive doesn't work. I'm not saying one should be favored over
another- I simply feel that government spends too much time and money
accommodating people. No freedom is infringed if such accommodations are not
met.I completely agree with your concern regarding evangelical
candidates. I'm not saying that evangelism equates to bad practices- but I do
find concern when any candidate pushes religion on others. However, I feel that
state recognition of 'traditional marriage only' does not force one's views on
others. They may still privately marry, like polygamists. Not agreeing,
endorsing, or recognizing it, etc. does not take freedom away, only recognition.
Watch out the Evangelicals as they control a +25% of the Republican party. This
group will control who the final candidate will be for the presidency.
@Utah GirlRick Perry also concerns me. And, when the American Family
Association says "Christians", it doesn't mean Mormons. Bryan Fischer,
Director of Issue Analysis for Government and Public Policy at the American
Family Association, and a big proponent of the candidacy of Rick Perry, says the
First Amendment doesn't apply to Mormons because they are "outside the
stream of historic Christianity". (Bryan Fischer: No longer alone: Herman
Cain agrees on banning mosques, July 18,k 2011.)
When John F. Kennedy ran for President, people were concerned about the
influence of the Pope and the Roman Catholic Church on American politics. Our
nation survived it's first non-evangelical President, and many would argue that
we are better for it. I think the same holds true for a "Mormon"
President, as it would for a Buddist, Jewish, or leader of any other faith.
What is important is the person's character and ideas, not where they go to
Headlines of recent Deseret News articles:-Perception of Mitt Romney
election to presidency would be similar to that of John F. Kennedy, scholar says
-Coverage of Mormonism in campaigns sometimes unfair to evangelicals
too-Fox News host: Romney not Christian-Jon Huntsman Jr. stands by
his Mormon religion-Huffington Post: Pawlenty video aimed at Mormon faith
of Romney and Huntsman-Mormon official challenges 'cult' designation-The Economist and other media consider why Mormonism carries agitation among
many-LDS reporter who worked on Newsweek's 'Mormon Moment' story defends
controversial cover-Controversial Mormon Newsweek sold out-'Mormons
Rock!' says Newsweek cover story about LDS Church, Mitt Romney-Huntsman
says his Mormon church membership is 'tough to define'-How defining were
Jon Huntsman's comments on his Mormonism?-'I am Mormon,' Huntsman tells
'Good Morning America'-Mitt Romney, Jon Huntsman Jr. compete in Mormon
primary-Mitt Romney, Jon Huntsman Jr. mull Mormon dilemma-Poll:
Mormon church membership negative for Huntsman, Romney-Romney's religion
unknown to most(a few more examples, but there is a word limit)I'd dare say that the Deseret News has made much more of an issue of Romney's
religion than Barack Obama ever will.
Currently there are 15 members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day
Saints who in the US Congress. I think a clearer understanding of the nuances
and spectrum of LDS membership would be better understood in today's political
environment, if Romney and Huntsman were discussed together with these 15,
including Jim Matheson and Harry Reid.
@Pagan, Just because you quote all the "headlines" in a Utah paper
does not mean that Obama has not talked about, discussed, or otherwise commented
about Mitt's or Jon's religion. I dare say that there is much,much more written
,discussed or commented than any of us would ever dare guess by other than the
DN.As for some others who have commented, I had a boss in Oklahoma
who called himself a "Five mile Baptist". He was a Youth Minister at
his Church. I asked him what that meant and he told me, "Five miles out of
town and anything goes." I just wish that the media would dive into all the
other candidates along with our current President as to their religions and how
committed they are to it.
Frankly, I don't care if they are Mormon or not... I just care if they are
@ "A Voice of Reason", I also totally support traditional marriage.
I'm not quite sure what you didn't understand about my post, but I was trying to
say that neither Romney nor Huntsman would ever push their religion on the
public. But I find the same is not true of many evangelicals. As a group, they
tend to be very intolerant of those they consider "outside" their
beliefs, and yes, including Latter-day Saints. I noticed during the GOP debate
last week, there were a couple of Catholic candidates, as well as Protestant and
Evangelical. (I personally have no idea of the difference between Protestant and
Evangelical.) Little or nothing has been said about the faith of the other GOP
candidates, which somehow doesn't seem fair. But it is what it is...@ Micawber, it seems SO strange to me that a church called The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints would be branded as non-Christian, considering
Christ is at the very center of everything we believe and do.But
religion aside, the candidates need to be considered based on their experience,
platform, ability to lead, and so much more that is far more important.
Utah Girl,You wrote: " it seems SO strange to me that a church
called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would be branded as
non-Christian, considering Christ is at the very center of everything we believe
and do."Although I am not LDS, my lovely wife is. I attend LDS
meetings with her every week, and have done so for the past 20+ years. I
attended meetings yesterday. Interestingly, of the two youth speakers and the
two adult speakers, only one scripture was quoted the entire Sacrament meeting.
The speakers gave little stories and anecdotes that did not mention Jesus at
all. One of the speakers mentioned a missionary story and said it strengthened
his testimony of Jesus Christ, but did not say exactly what it was about Jesus
or his teachings that was so inspirational or moving. Other than that, the only
time Jesus was mentioned, was in the closings.This is not uncommon.
A couple years back I counted for three months how many times Jesus'
teachings/scriptures were explicitly mentioned in LDS meetings. Results in Provo
Utah? About 20%.You can SAY you are Christian. See Matt.7:22-23
DN Editorial Staff:I am not allowed to express my opinion? Even
though it does not violate your rules, and is mild compared to many others you
did post?Please be consistent and post this:After living
among the Mormons most of my life, and reading Lisa Wangsness' article,
sometimes I wonder whether or not everything Mormons do is not just a publicity
stunt. All Mormons ever seem to want to do is draw attention to themselves and
their Church.And here I thought vanity was a cardinal sin.
Neither Romney or Huntsman is God's choice for POTUS. It remains to be seen over
the next 15 months who will be the Lord's politically Anointed One. Whomever he
or she is, they need to eliminate ALL Business taxes, while at the same time
increasing ONLY the personal income tax rate to 70% on incomes of $250K or
larger. They also need to reinstate by Executive Order (as Commander-in-Chief)
"don't ask don't tell".
I am a Christian who believes that God does not look at the labels we use. He
knows those that belong to Him. We know them by their fruits. Glenn Beck has
convinced me that some Mormons know and have given their lives to God. All
churches have some true believers and some that only "go to Church."
(cont.) - The future POTUS also needs to have the Congress pass (and later the
individual states to ratify) a Balanced Budget Amendment to the Constitution.
I lived in the south, Tennessee, for a couple years. Far too many articles make
it sound as if almost everyone in the south is Christian and/or evangelical,
well it just ain't so. Lots of southerners don't give a hoot about any
religion; why the implication that southern voters would never support an LDS
Utah Girl, I think your last post has just made my top 10 post list of all time!
Can I quote you? lol j/k - but seriously, great comment!Vanka, you
seem to find this recurring theme of 'not getting posted'. I have run into the
problem a couple times and I've emailed them to suggest a better approach...
although I do believe that most comments are filtered wisely.Michigander, God doesn't choose the POTUS, he lets us choose. Free Agency
doesn't exist now?prlim, I fully welcome your comment. I wish more
comments like this existed, between all religious.E. Hindman, you
stated "why the implication that southern voters would never support an LDS
candidate?" - I don't think anyone truly believes that all southerners are
the exact same in religion. But 'getting Utah votes' would certainly mean
impressing people who are LDS. There is nothing offensive or noninclusive in
this mentality... simply an acknowledgement of what is needed for votes for
certain areas, demographics, etc.
Whatever you do, do not judge the person or the faith by the actions of the
individual though those actions be something less than what our perceived
thinking says they should be. We happen to all be human and are susceptible to
the weaknesses of the flesh. The faith is perfect but the people are not and in
order to be perfect we need to pass the tests of this life whatever they may be.
Isn't it interesting that when a Protestant or someone of another faith has
issues no big deal, but let that happen to a Mormon and look out. Why not let
these folks alone and let them act according to their own development? Who
knows one or maybe both of them may prove to be an asset.
Everyone is entitle to there belief/non-belief in the church and its doctrine
and how close they choose to follow/live it. I don't know if Mr. Huntsman's is
an active member or not nor do I know his religious beliefs. That shouldn't a
decisive factor whether or not he is qualified to run for president. We should
study Mr. Huntsman's ideals about our economy and how he would get us out of
debt, our high unemployment and our deteriorating cities I believe they called
this our interstructure. Thank you
prlim -- Amen.I admire the Protestant concern that the Gospel be
understood properly, and that it not be twisted to suit human whims. All
virtues can be corrupted, though, and with some evangelicals, this admirable
concern for orthodoxy crosses over into simple tribalism, with Christian
identity coming to be given more importance than Christian life.I
happen to think that Mormonism -- which declares that Jesus Christ is God, that
he constitutes, with the Father and Holy Ghost, "one God" in at least
some sense, and that he is the savior of humankind and the indispensable element
of Mormon religion -- has all the essentials for a faith to be classified as
"Christian." At worst, it's a Christian heresy. But of course, from
a Catholic perspective, so is Protestantism. The label
"Christian," after all, wasn't one the followers of Christ chose for
themselves. It was a nickname given to them by the people of Antioch. It's
useful enough shorthand (like "Mormon"), but the label alone doesn't
determine one's standing before God. You are right: God knows His own.
After spending the last 21 years living in the heart of bible belt Texas, I can
say with some authority that Evangelicals that dominate the Republican party in
the South will not vote for either of them because of their Mormon faith.
Orthodox or not, neither Romney or Huntsman will ever be elected simply because
they are Mormons. Their relative level of religious commitment is not
important. Rick Perry's recent evangelical foray in Houston was a dog whistle
for these voters. That "prayer" meeting was really a way to say to
those folks, "y'all know that am not a Mormon like the front runner
Republican candidate is".
@ Vanka. I understand what you are saying regarding many of the talks and
lessons given in church. I think it depends on the ward you live in. Our
teachers and speakers talk about Christ often, and use the scriptures every
lesson. However, merely talking about Christ doesn't make one a Christian. Our
actions speak louder than words. Do we show love for our neighbors and fellow
men? Do we render service to those in need? Being a Christian, to me, means
doing what Christ asked us to do, not merely mentioning His name. Both are
needed. When asked what the most important commandments were, He answered that
we should love God with all our hearts, might, mind and strength, and that we
should love our neighbors as ourselves.@ Mike, Cedar City, I lived
in Texas several years ago, and actually had a co-worker ask me where my horns
were! I had no idea people still believed such things! I think that fear of
Romney and/or Huntsman by voters comes from ignorance, much as it did with JFK.
The Pope didn't rule the US then, and neither would Pres. Monson do so now.Thanks, Voice of Reason :)
It has always puzzled me why LDS members seem so desperate to be accepted by the
evangelicals. Having spent some time living in the bible belt, I can honestly
say that most of them hate us. Not just dislike, but hate us. In fact, if I was
a betting man I would put on a large sum of money that some of them would be
dancing in the streets if they found out that every mormon had dropped dead.
Pagan | 4:17 p.m. Aug. 15, 2011Pagan, I know we have disagreed in the
past, but at least give me a shout out when you copy/paste one of my comments.
Mitt's theology is based on New Testament Christianity, Evangelicals theology is
based on Fourth Century Creeds. The emperor Constantine introduced a term,
homousious, which defined the Son as consubstantial (one being) with the Father.
That theology is not to be found in the New Testament.11 of the
signers of the Declaration of Independence (including several presidents) were
non-Trinitarian Christians, as is Mitt. (Jon's theology is not yet defined.)
Evangelicals who now insist on their narrow Trinitarian and salvation only by
grace definition of Christianity for candidates for public office are doing our
Republic an injustice.
UT Brit,I wouldn't have believed your comment if I hadn't
experienced this for myself.There is a clear difference between
those who 'hate' the church based on misconceptions as these people generally
feel very otherwise when they learn the truth- and those who really do have hate
in their hearts. Hatred refuses reason, desire to do any good, and all the
rest.I usually feel I can relate to a lot of different people and
their problems. I often feel that the law gives too harsh of punishments for
some things and not enough for others. I feel that I am a generally good judge
of character if I need to be... but I don't know how well I would do with
someone who desires to hate. It's something I entirely do not understand. And I
don't care what religion or group they are, anti is anti, hate is hate, and so
@Utah Girl;I have a good friend (non-Mormon) who recently attended
the Missionary Homecoming of her co-workers' son (she knows the son as well as
his parents).She made the comment to me afterward that during the
entire service she did not feel like it was a worship service at all. She was
quite disappointed actually; she expected it to be more like her own
denomination's services: Christ centered - it wasn't even close. And this from
a service which included a just-returned Missionary.It is no
surprise really, that Mormons aren't considered Christian. Not to mention the
fact that per most Christian beliefs, LDS beliefs about Christ and God are quite
I agree with the poster who said that Deseret News is making more of an issue of
the religion of the Presidential candidates than necessary.Look at
previous actions and deeds rather than church memberships.In all churches we
come in all sizes and shapes,colors and abilities to think and levels of common
sense. Who among us has not wished some member of our church or religion would
evaporate because they do not project well with those not in our faith. A Mormon
friend of mine is a class A apologist for Harry Reid,insisting it is not his
Mormonism that makes him cranky and unable to think clearly ,but probably his
age.I could go on and on with examples from all religions. Think Anthony Weiner.
I am just happy to see Presidential candidates with a moral compass as
some part of their life,just so they show signs of recognizing many of us are
good people following one of the many paths God has presented to us.
Brent Bot.(one being) with the Father. That theology is not to be found in the
New Testament.Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express
image of his person( hupostasis,5287),(Hebrew 1:3). * a substance, real
being.God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM(The being) This is what you
are to say to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you(Exodus 3:14
Septuagint))I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, who is, and
who was,(The Being) and who is to come, the Almighty. (Rev 1:8 Greek N.T.)A person who claims the doctrine of the Trinity is false because the
word Trinity is not found in Scripture is as foolish as someone who claims
3½ inches, or say, 5¼ centimeters do not exist because his ruler
only shows whole numbers. The Doctrine of the Trinity is presented in Scripture
clearly enough for the discerning.The word "Trinity" was
first used by Tertullian (c.155-230)well before the Nicene creed
"I am just happy to see Presidential candidates with a moral compass as
some part of their life"It amazes me how many people feel that
not having God or Christianity is not having morals. Couldn't be further from
the truth. Morals are taught by parents, society, etc. Doesn't matter whether
one has Christ, religion, or the other. Morals come from many ways. And I've
seen plenty of immoral things done from the religious.
"It remains to be seen over the next 15 months who will be the Lord's
politically Anointed One"So, the man upstairs is pulling the
strings? I guess my vote does not matter.
I want a leader with strong ethics. Morals are often religion
centered. Morals can be that one should not drink coffee, or eat
meat on Friday during lent.Neither of those things is unethical.
to Joe in Miami (your vote does matter according to the following criteria): Therefore, choose you by the voice of this people, judges, that ye
may be judged according to the laws which have been given you by our fathers,
which are correct, and which were given them by the hand of the Lord. Now it is not common that the voice of the people desireth anything
contrary to that which is right; but it is common for the lesser part of the
people to desire that which is not right; therefore this shall ye observe and
make it your law -- to do your business by the voice of the people. And if the time comes that the voice of the people doth choose iniquity,
then is the time that the judgments of God will come upon you; yea, then is the
time he will visit you with great destruction even as he has hitherto visited
this land.(BOM Mosiah 29).
A good argument as to why we need a cavernous separation between church and
state.So, does the above pertain to me or to everyone?If
so, is it safe to assume that the campaigns and EVERYONES vote is
inconsequential? Since you quoted the BOM, wouldn't you expect that
God would want either Romney or Huntsman? What if that does not happen?
Michigander,You're criteria is false, so his vote doesn't matter
according to your criteria.
sharrona - I fail to see how any of the above quoted scriptures
"prove" the current definition of the Trinity; still kind of ambiguous
to me. But there are many scriptures that pretty clearly show that there are
three distinct individuals in the Godhead. You know where they are; typing them
here is only preaching to the choir and wasting electrons.
Amen UtahGirl:Do you think you CHRISTIANS are getting a little ridiculous.
Now you count the number of times Mormons say the word Jesus or Christ to
determine if they are Christian. Do you have any idea how stupid that sounds?
Listen to yourselves. So as long as you say Jesus so many times in a service
you are a Christian church? I can go cheat my neighbor, get on these blogs and
bash Mormons, be be terrorist and kill innocent people but if I go to one of
your churches I am Christian? By thier works you shall know them. If you can
find a church that does more for their fellowmen as a whole and cares about
others as a whole, I would like to know about them. If being a Christian is
always tearing down another religion and actually counting the number of times
we say Jesus then I really don't want to be included in your interpretation of
Christian. Maybe if you tried to feel the spirit of the meeting instead of
counting you would have felt the Spirit testify to the truthfulness of what was
Utah Girl,You wrote: "However, merely talking about Christ
doesn't make one a Christian. Our actions speak louder than words. Do we show
love for our neighbors and fellow men? Do we render service to those in
need?"Did you read the scripture I referenced? Matt.7:21-23.Jesus himself said that not everyone who calls him "Lord"
shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.Jesus himself said it doesn't
matter how wonderful you think you are, how much you claim to prophesy in his
name, or even casting out devils in his name.Jesus specifically
addresses your claim: "...and in thy name done many wonderful
works?"It doesn't matter how many "wonderful works"
you have done in Jesus' name."..then will [Jesus] profess unto
them, I never aknew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."Being a "Christian" is not up to you. It is not something you can
choose to be. It is not something you can earn through "good works" or
putting Jesus' name in the title of your Church, or even posting comments
insisting that you are Christian and denigrating those who disagree with you.You cannot declare yourself "Christian". Jesus said so.
"The Doctrine of the Trinity is presented in Scripture clearly enough for
the discerning."So clearly, that it took four centuries of
Christians killing Christians to get the issue settled.An objective
reader of Scripture must conclude that while the New Testament (and Mormon
scripture) do declare that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit constitute "one
God," the precise details of what exactly that oneness entails is not so
clearly spelled out that reasonable people cannot (and have not) drawn different
conclusions. It's sheer epistemological arrogance to pretend
otherwise. Are the Father and the Son "one Being"? Or
are they "of the same Substance"? Or "of like Substance"?
You can't even get people to agree on the proper translation of the Greek and
Latin of the Creeds. I'm a contract lawyer. My bread and butter is
that people interpret the same English words differently. Imagine how much more
ambiguous that gets when we're dealing with idioms we see across whole
centuries, and whose users are all dead (often at each others' fanatical hands!)
and unable to explain exactly what they meant.A non-Christian would
look at this, and say we're fighting just to fight.
TJW,Who are you calling "Christians"? I mentioned counting
the meetings in which scripture and Jesus' teachings were actually used. I am
not a Christian. I am atheist - with no belief in god.So while we
are on the subject of "if you can find a church that does more for their
fellowman... and cares about others..." -- I have watched LDS people in
action for over two decades. I assure you LDS do not have the market cornered on
help and care! Not by a long shot.Many Christian (and non-Christian)
religions help others and care for others. The difference between them and
Mormons that I have noticed is that most Christians I know do not "sound a
trumpet" before them, in testimony meetings, or through Deseret News
articles ("in the synagogues and in the streets"), that they may have
glory of men.Instead, most Christians I know help others
anonymously, secretly, without recognition or reward. They are not trying to
bring attention to themselves and their "moral superiority" (which is
what both you and Utah Girl asserted). They don't "brag" about how
much better they are at helping others and caring for others.
"But there are many scriptures that pretty clearly show that there are
three distinct individuals in the Godhead."So does the
Athanasian Creed: "Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the
Substance." The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinct persons in one
sense, and one God, in another sense. Mormons and Chalcedonian
Christians are not as far apart as either side wants to think -- the Mormons, to
play up the supposed error of the Chalcedonians (so as to make the case that
Christianity had gone so far astray in its doctrines that a revelatory
Restoration was necessary), and the Chalcedonians, because Mormons are just so
weird, dude, that they've got to make them seem as different as possible so that
that weirdness doesn't rub off on them. Religious weirdness is like cooties,
you know. Sit too close to someone a secularist would think is weird, and
pretty soon he thinks you're weird, too.The irony, of course, is
that the evangelicals don't seem to realize that the secularists have already
written them all off together, Mormons and evangelicals alike.
Apparently the residents of Utah have no problem distinguishing between
"active" and "semi-active" Mormons, since Huntsman's polling
numbers there have tanked. It's not all that complicated to see why.
This group of comments is indicative of a lot of misunderstanding and some
intolerance on the part of those who do not follow our faith. I am a member of
the LDS church, and when I go to church in Columbia, SC, the name of Jesus
Christ is invoked many times on a Sunday. Also, if you were there last week,
Vanka, you were no doubt at Fast and Testimony Meeting, which is once a month
and members are encouraged to stand and bear testimony to their beliefs. Often
that testimony is illustrated by "stories and anecdotes" to make their
point.Thank you for attending with your wife. I pray that you will
eventually follow her into the waters of baptism, if you are led by the Holy
Spirit to do so. Perhaps you could ask her Bishop to send the missionaries to
your home to give you a fuller explanation of the Gospel that would make more
sense to you.
@MEBates,I don't think this will help Vanka. He's in my shoes. I
spent a couple years with my GF who was a Mormon. I met the Missionaries, spent
a few months at church with her, and really seeked the truth like I was told.
When I found the truth, and not the 'milk' but the 'meat', I realized what was
going on and stopped going. I asked the missionaries tough questions that they
couldn't answer. I realized the truth ... Vanka is a smart guy
MEBates. Those missionaries don't have the level of logic and rationality that
he probably has. They can't relate to him on a 'blind faith' level of 'do as
the brethren say, when the brethren speak the thinking is done' kind of stuff.
MEBates,If you had read my comments, you would know I have been
attending LDS meetings with my wife for over 20 years. I have had "the
discussions" countless times. I have been "fellowshipped" by
Bishops, Stake Presidents, and a few GAs. I dare say I know "the
Gospel" of the LDS Church better than 90% of baptized members.Your other assumptions are also wrong. This past Sunday (the 14th) was NOT
testimony meeting. Are you sure YOU were paying attention?That
brings up another observation I have made repeatedly. On a typical Sunday,
during meetings, I can look around and count probably 40-60% of people sleeping
or otherwise engaged in something other than the speaker. I don't blame them.
Having sat through as many meetings as I have, I find the repetition and lack of
originality mind-numbing. The speakers and teachers are generally unprepared,
untrained, unprofessional, and lack any meaningful understanding of theology
generally or even their own religion. Consequently, many of them tell their own
stories, try (and fail) to make funny jokes to entertain, or misrepresent the
errors and flaws of other religions in order to make the case for the
"truth" of Mormonism.
To Joe Blow in Miami:Just because someone believes in the BOM, does not
mean that they support Romney or Huntsman (which I do not).There are tens
of thousands of non-LDS BOM believers in other Restoration churches such as the
church I belong to. I can't post the name or location of this organization
because it would get censored out on this board.To Chicago:What is the criteria that you use?
@Michigander,Logic and rationality. The BOM doesn't fit the bill
for me there so anything in there is not my criteria. I won't share my thoughts
of JS for fear of being denied a comment which is almost always the case if I
bring up reasons. So I'll leave this vague.
Vanka;Are we digging deep to find things wrong or what? Get on
with life. You don't like the Mormons that is fine but all those things you are
digging so deep can be found in any religion. Are Mormons the only ones who
fall asleep during a service? Give me a break. As for your comment about
Mormons tooting their horn.... guess what we are criticized if we do and
criticized if we don't. Comments were made earlier in the week about people
not ever hearing about Mormon's helping others, about their helping with
glasses, vaccinations, wheel chairs etc. or their "Helping Hands" .
So the church gets in the news and brings some of their service to the publics
attention and we get blasted for tooting our horns. Bottom line is it doesn't
matter what members of the LDS Church do or what they believe there will always
be so called wonderful people like some of you going to perfect congregations
with people who never fall asleep and always mention Christ's name to criticize
and tear down. How about putting a person in office who is the best for the
job and forget about their religion.
I think all LDS politicians that I have known have not "pushed" their
LDS views with their political positions. Romney sees what way the flag is
blowing and adjust his views. Huntsman was a moderate in a conservative state
and served in a Democratic Administration. Harry Reid is the Senate Majority
Leader and votes his conscience. In fact his voting record may be more in line
with the church's points: Dream Act (illegal immigration), extension of
unemployment benefits (welfare), he has an abortion view pretty much in line
with the church, and I would argue that repeal of don't ask don't tell is not in
conflict with the church's stance, but his stance on DOMA (or defense of
marriage act) might conflict.The point is they don't make grand
displays of religion like Rick Perry--the Pharisees were the public worshipers
but private sinners. I think the real story on religion and politics is with
the born again crowd or evangelicals and their determination to erase the
separation of Church and State. To carry out their political agenda in God's
name. I don't recall God supporting supply side economics, but get ready to
hear about it should they win.
The Boston reporter and some other Non-members have a difficult time
understanding Mormons. We do not have a "Mormon mold" except perhaps
the standards of appearance and behavior that missionaries are expected to show.
But otherwise anything decent goes. Mormons are one in our Gospel
beliefs. We believe the same Gospel, but are individuals, not forced or
expected to march in lockstep, except to live up to Gospel standards. Our
Heavenly Father has created each of us unique and special, and gives us brains
to think with, and He expects us to do so. That is why we will be held
accountable for how we live our lives.If those outside the church
want to begin to understand us and our basics, begin by learning the twelve
articles of faith, and knowing the requirements to obtain a Temple Recommend.
Huntsman is not a "different" kind of Mormon, he is just
one who is perhaps compromising himself a bit to get both the LDS and non-LDS
@Ranch, the great thing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is
that the learning, speaking, rejoicing, of Christ happens more than outside of
Church. While you are correct, Christ should be more central in LDS worship
services, the majority of the study on Christ should actually take place in the
home with the family. Please read "Jesus the Christ" by James E.
Talmage, a deceased apostle of the church. It is the most spiritual and
comprehensive study on the life of Christ ever written, 90% of which is taken
from the new testament and examined and explained pheonominally. :) Enjoy
The Proud Duck: A non-Christian would look at this, and say we're fighting just
to fight.The Athanasian creed, The Father is God: the Son is God: the Holy
Spirit/Ghost is God, and yet there not three gods, but One God. One cannot be
saved without believing this firmly and faithfully.Also, The
Manhattan Declaration from Christians (Catholics, Orthodox, Protestants) are in
agreement on the on the Trinity as an essential of the Christian Faith and
excludes Mormons and Jehovahs Witnesses, from the pale of Christianity.The pale Christianity is monotheistic, they worship one God. Mormons are
polytheistic. To us speaking in the proper finite sense, these three are the
only Gods we worship(Mormon doctrine p.576,577)If Christianity was
something we were making up, of course we would make it easier. But it is not.
We cannot compete, in simplicity, with people who are inventing religions [JS].
How could we? We are dealing with fact. Of course anyone can be simple if he has
no facts to bother about." The three personal God Mere Christianity by
C.S. Lewis gives some other analogies of the Tri(3)Unity.
Sharrona, Mormon scripture (D&C 21) declares that the Father, Son, and Holy
Ghost are one God. If Bruce R. McConkie said different in his spectacularly
mistitled book "Mormon Doctrine," he was wrong. Scripture trumps
commentary.As for the Manhattan Declaration -- can any good thing
come out of Manhattan? You are, in fact, making up the doctrine of
the Trinity. Or more precisely, you are making up the idea that Scripture
provides enough evidence to justify an honest man in the conclusion that the
Chalcedonian formulation of the Trinity is infallibly correct. Maybe it is, and
maybe it isn't. But either way, an honest man will not declare something to be
true, with greater certainty than the evidence warrants. There is something
deeply irreverent in appropriating God's warrant for what is at best some
Christians' best efforts at making sense of a mystery about which God has not
said enough to justify conclusive statements.
Dixie Dan:Evangelicals control 25% of the Repub party? so what? it's not
enuff to have sway. and even if 25% would make a difference, that would be a
GOOD thing.look who we got last time - John McCain. egads. give me an
TJW,Well, that tirade was convincing -- not!I simply
offered valid observations in response to Utah Girl (and others) claims that
they are "Christian" because of their "fruits".The point is that LDS "fruits" are no better than anyone else's
"fruits", and in many ways worse if you are claiming to be
"Christians". Where are the "fruits" that prove you are
Christians?You admitted the same thing yourself: "those things
you are digging so deep can be found in any religion." Exactly. Mormonism
is no better than any other religion. That is not a compliment.So
how can you convince me (and the world) that Mormons are "Christian"?
We are ready and willing to believe Mormons are Christian if you can make the
case. But so far, nobody has been able to do so. The actual words of
Jesus as recorded in Matt.7:21-23 (and elsewhere) keep getting in the way.You must either define "Christian" so broadly that you can be
included - but then it means nothing special and defeats the purpose; or you
must define "Christian" so narrowly that only the LDS Church fits -
but then you are an extremist, radical group.Which is it?
Vanka: We have had this question over and over. The only definition I need is
that I KNOW I am a Christian because I worship the Lord Jesus Christ and his
Father. Our Father in Heaven is the Father of each and every person who has
lived, is living or will live on the Earth. As some one once said there is no
such thing as an atheist in a foxhole.You've stated that you have
done everything required to receive confirmation on the Book of Mormon and The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. However, your actions on this
board and in your life dispell all of that. You've never had a change of heart.
Until that comes you will never receive confirmation as to the Book of Mormon or
the LDS Church. That is no ones fault but yours and yours alone. No General
Authority, no missionary, no comment on this board will ever confirm that. Only
you can but first you must fully submit to the Lord Jesus Christ. That means
you need to quit your badgering of the Church and its members. That means you
need to allow Jesus Christ into your heart.
Once again, Bill, thanks for the judgment and Condemnation. Now I really want to
fellowship with people like you!