If you don't like the law, go get it changed. Until then, illegal means illegal.
And our country needs to deport all and any illegal immigrants regardless of
their "story". If you want to open the immigration process up, then
start with those who are trying to come here legally.
The only "responsible approach" to immigration law is to honor,
respect, and sustain the law. Any other approach is just one more step toward
anarchy.The whole reason immigrants want to come to this Country is
because of the high standard of living. This standard has only been possible
because of our system of laws, the system of enforcement, and the overwhelming
obedience to the law by the public. If the law is ignored, the whole system
crumbles. Without the system, the standard of living is destroyed.No reasonable person opposes legal immigration. Likewise, no reasonable person
can favor illegal immigration. Why do some immigrants feel that the law applies
to everyone else, but not to them because they are different? That is a
completely un-American way of thinking. In America, all laws apply to everyone
equally. If you violate that principle, you violate everything America stands
Since when is the 12th Article of Faith the only one that applies in this case?
"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates,
in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." AF12Now, how
could a man repent except he should sin? How could he sin if there was no law?
How could there be a law save there was a punishment? Alma 42:17The
US has failed to enforce immigration laws for decades and from our own doctrine
we learn that if there is no punishment there can be no law. If there was no
law how could these people have broken it?
Interesting, the examples they gave (The Savior reached out to those in prison
and law breakers). I think there's a world of difference between reaching out
to those in prison and encouraging those in the process of breaking the law.
Let us not forget what he said to the woman taken in adultery..."Go thou,
and sin no more." I don't remember him saying anything like...."Get
away with as much as you can, because you think the law is wrong,"
I have questions when a person who now represents businesses as being impartial.
They thirst for illegal labor is a large part of the problem. As
with ignoring the laws of the land, and working towards changing them, that's
not how I was taught. You first change the laws of the land, so you don't have
to break them. We changed the laws in 1986 and 1996. Why are we still needing to
change them when they are not being enforced. The The Dillingham
Commission came to the same conclusion as Senator Robles and Tony Yapais, they
are here for the jobs, not citizenship. Once again, someone with
business interest quoting the LDS church? Lange quoted the three basic
principles the LDS Church set out for a "responsible approach" to
immigration law:1. The commandment to "love thy neighbor."
--works both ways, those with stolen ID's, lost jobs, paying taxes to subsidize
business, in countries waiting to come deserve the love also. It only happens
when both sides follow the law. 2. The importance of keeping
families intact. --Is the responsibility of the immigrant. You can't
ignore the article of faith to serve business. That's serving two masters.
There seems to be a lot of hypocrisy around here in Utah. Do you guys remember
that the LDS Pioneers moved illegally to Mexico when nobody else would accept
them. Utah belonged to Mexico when Brigham Young and the other pioneers moved
in. I am LDS, a legal immigrant and I love Utah, but I hate when I see people
pretending to be all righteous when in fact they only see their limited
perspective. Guys, please love each other
I am in a bit of a quandary. As a youth I was always taught to avoid those
Churches who change Gods law to fill their own needs. For the Church belongs to
God, not them. Now I find my Church is ignoring one of it's own
teachings, and allowing people to go to the temple and become Bishops after
violating our laws, and doing harm to their neighbors? It's a misdemeanor to
come here illegally, and felonies to steal peoples identity and work here. It's
also a felony to hire people here illegally, and the Church ignores this also?
This to me is wrong, and there is no justification. I shall follow
Gods teachings, and the articles of faith on this issue. I feel their policies
are doing harm to the community and nation, and that they are setting a poor
example. Compassion is not an excuse to not enforce the law. It has to be
administered equally and fairly. This is what our laws do when enforced.
It seems like some members of the Church only believe in following the
leadership when it fits their personal views. We must remember that the reason
we have a living Prophet is to provide guidance for current issues. I am afraid
that right wing extremism is over taking much of the LDS members in Utah. LDS
members need to remember to stick to our roots of reasonable compassion. If a
man is starving to death do we execute him for stealing a loaf of bread? We must
find a way to secure our country while maintaining our humanity.
Why are some being so oblivious to the plight of the citizens and people in
other lands wanting to come here legally? Do they feel that loving thy neighbor
only applies when that neighbor comes from another land here illegally? We can
still love them and require them to come here legally. We can still love them
and ask that they return home. Teaching people to be responsible, to follow the
laws, and to be honest with their fellow man, will be a lesson that will be with
them and their children for life. Do we want a generation of children using
these excuses in their lives, instead of doing what is right. Let's
not forget that the choice to separate the family is made by the individual. My
family could not bring everyone here. It was a decision they made to separate
the family. Those who wanted to come, came here legally over the years. Those
that decided to stay, stayed. Parents deported take their children, unless they
decide to have those born here stay with family. It is their choice to make. FAIRLDS is not part/sponsored by the LDS church.
Is this the Michael De Groote that is Director of Communication and Marketing at
Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce?
"The Dillingham Commission. The commission's report said new immigrants
were immigrating for different reasons than earlier immigrants. The commission
found the newer immigrant "comes with the intention of profiting" only
to go back to their old country."If you listen to the rhetoric
of La Raza you understand that many illegal aliens in this country feel that
they are reclaiming territory taken in the war with Mexico.Both
Republicans and Democrats are too blame for the problem. Republican businessmen
(as if all businessmen are Republican) want a low cost labor force. Democrats
view illegal aliens as future Democrat voters. Indeed many illegal aliens are
voting now. Motor Voter makes it illegal to even ask if the applicant is a
citizen.The birth rate among the crowd that would go to a Michael
Moore appearance is less than half of a similar group that would go to a Sarah
Palin appearance. Democrats are not reproducing. They need these illegal
immigrants.Illegal immigration is also Mexico's welfare system. End
it and Mexico would have to end the corruption in their country.
" It is not a question in an interview to determine if a church member can
attend an LDS temple"Um, yeah, it is. Or doesn't "are you
honest in your dealings with your fellowmen" count? Being in a country
with false documentation, or no documentation at all is simply dishonest,
regardless of your reasons.I want to help those who want to come
here legitimately, just as much as the next person, but let's not water down the
standards for some and not others.Either that question applies to
all of us, or it applies to none of us.
The best thing we can do regarding more comprehensive illegal immigration
enforcement is to elect a President who makes enforcement a priority.We are spending 100 billion per year on the illegal immigrants free care and
services when our own ACTUAL CITIZENS are in desperate straights.Sadly, law enforcement has become a political issue.ICE has the
responsibility and the authority to arrest and deport and they need to either DO
THEIR JOB or let the states do it.No more excuses. The situation is
ludicrous. With our unemployment numbers and the amount of "freebies"
wee bestow on illegal trespassers we badly need immigration enforcement.
I appreciate the LDS church's approach to immigration reform, which includes
what many would consider a form of amnesty."The Church supports
an approach where undocumented immigrants are allowed to square themselves with
the law and continue to work without this necessarily leading to
citizenship."Hopefully more and more members will start to
support the church's approach to immigration.
bluemoon1977 makes a good point.But the scriptures and words from the
pulpit only make it worse for illegal aliens and their apologists.D&C
58:21 " Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws
of God hath no need to break the laws of the land."Hugh B. Brown,
General Conf., Oct. 1965"We should understand that each of us has a
duty to honor, support, and sustain our civil leaders and the law. The fact that
everyone is entitled to his or her own opinion insofar as various matters of law
and government are concerned does not relieve any of us of the personal
responsibility to obey honor, and sustain the elected governmental officers and
the law which it is their duty to administer."D&C 134:5We believe
that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which
they reside.The article did not mention how Mormons are supposed to deal
with the variety of other violations of the law committed by illegal aliens just
to perpetuate their lies.
Just imagine the dilema my son in law is in as he is both a Bishop and a
prosecuting attorney. He is to accept them on sunday as fellow citizens with
the saints and file deportations charges against them on Monday as he has sworn
to uphold the law and it is his job.
The federal government refuses to enforce the laws of the land and sues states
who then try to protect themselves from violent, law breaking illegals! If LDS
members really believe in the 12 AofF. they should be outraged at the federal
government for failure to enforce the laws of the land!
Follow the prophet> Yes, when you think he's as smart and righteous as you
are. After all, he usually speaks God's will...It's simple, folks.
Thomas S. Monson is a prophet, or he isn't. If he is, we follow him. We may
wrestle intellectually, and we may not always see/agree with his every
direction, but we still follow and pray for understanding. Sometimes the
exercise of faith is hard.
Those who read the 12th Article with blinders on miss the points she's trying to
make. First, you don't get to cherry pick which parts of the Book
you get to believe and live by. That's what she meant by "not an 'all or
nothing' proposition."Second, we need --better laws-- to
address the issue. Some of you fail to understand that Arizona's laws are laws,
yes, but bad ones that don't solve the problem. The objective is to make better
laws that address the needs of society without purposefully turning people into
criminal.Finally, the irrational fears about Europeans highlighted
in the 1911 Dillingham Commission report are being recycled as are just as
irrational now about Mexicans. But irrational fear isn't a justification for
condemnation and persecution. It also highlights the need to make better
laws.Rational people will hear her words and share them. Irrational
people will not and will condemn them. That's the way it works. We'll have to
see how many more rational than irrational people there are.
For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the
battle? 1st Corinthians 14:8The Utah Compact: Why is there no
distinction made between legal and illegal immigrants? They are not the
same.How does an illegal remain here without violating other laws?
Why is there no mention of compassion for those whose identify has
been stolen by the illegal so they can remain here? Does the church
suggest that I should "turn the other cheek" and ignore the hand that
is in my pocket stealing from me? Or my neighbor? Should I not sound the
alarm? Should the US become increasingly made up of
"immigrants" who do not become citizens? The Mexican
President said: "Where there is a Mexican, there is Mexico."How
can we build a nation of "one" if we are not first Americans but
rather "Mexican-American", "Irish-American",
"African-American" etc.? Are Law Enforcement Officers
sworn to uphold the entire law or just parts of it? Why is the
Church not making a noise about the federal governments failure to enforce the
immigration laws? What pressure are they exerting in this area? An
uncertain sound indeed!
Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a
publican.The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I
thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or
even as this publican.I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all
that I possess.And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift
up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be
merciful to me a sinner.I tell you, this man went down to his house
justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be
abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
She pretty much is taking a black and white approach to this. It raises a lot
of questions. For one, obeying the law is not always the right thing to do.
Mormons in the 19th and 20th Century should realize this. Life isn't so clear
cut as this. We admire LDS Germans in WWII who resisted Hitler. Should they be
condemned? And how about all the LDS people I talk to who complain about
illegals and then they themselves hire them to perform services for them because
the price is better? If there were no jobs, there would be fewer illegals. The
inconsistencies and the hypocrisy are astounding.
This is a really hard topic to discuss. I served a spanish speaking mission in
California, so I saw people that were in the country illegally being baptized.
Yes, they are here illegally, but what about their intentions? In most cases
that I came across (not always, of course) the people are here to improve their
lives and send money back to their families in Mexico, or wherever they're from.
They understand that their very presence in the states is a crime, but they
don't actively commit any other crimes, other than trying to provide a better
life for their families. In my own opinion, and others might
disagree, I believe that if it were up to the Savior, I don't think he would
hesitate to allow these humble people to be baptized. "...for the Lord
seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord
looketh on the heart." - 1 Samuel 16:7
@crivas and any others still pushing the "illegal pioneer to Mexico
immigration"Please cite or reference the laws at the time which
precluded immigration into Mexican territory. If you cannot cite them, stop
using this example for an excuse for the current violation of U.S. immigration
laws.I believe strongly that immigration law and enforcement is
woefully inadequate. The process for legal immigration is seriously draconian
and conveluted, BUT, the law is still the law. Hiding behind its flaws is still
not a reason for violation.
A moral and principled solution to this problem must include the following:A drastic increase in the number of work, visitation and immigration
visas by the Federal government. This should be accompanied by a drastic
reduction in the time it takes to do this legally. A person wishing to enter
this country legally can wait up to 10 years or more.A recognition
that those who are here illegally must repent (or make it right) if they want
the blessings of citizenship or even government services of any type (driver's
licenses, assistance, etc.)A process by which they can do this - I
propose presenting themselves for deportation with the understanding that they
will be second in line to return legally - right behind those who are already
doing it legally.A requirement that those who want to stay here (not
just visit or have a work visa) must assimilate by learning the language and
laws and complying with the requirements (car insturance, etc.) that the rest of
us have to live by instead of getting special treatment and privileges.Those who remain illegal after having these options presented pay the price of
incarceration and/or deportation.
If I were in the position of some illegals, trying to save my family from
starvation, I would do whatever I felt was necessary - including sneaking into
another country where I could get enough money to send them so they could
survive. We need to provide a way that serves both compassion and the rule of
law. That is what I believe the Savior would do. He seems to believe we can
serve both justice and mercy.
@AZEIRWe don't turn people into criminals. We have legal immigration
for the honest people. If they choose to be dishonest, then they choose to be
criminals. All industrialized countries of the world have immigration laws. And
it's illegal in those countries also. It's not just coming here, it
the laws broken to stay and work here. And the laws broken to hire them. Remember the woman caught in adulty? woman? Jesus told her to go, and
sin no more. So I think he would object to baptism as long as they continue
sinning. Forgiveness to return home and come back legally, in my opinion, would
be his message.
C'mon Esquire, the U.S INS is not Hitler. You say you are LDS, but
only in the areas with which you agree? "Obeying the law isn't
always the right thing to do". So we get to pick and choose the laws we
want to obey? That is an extremely slippery slope with no safe landing zone. I
think even you know that isn't right.Without question, there is
hypocrisy(sic) in the opinions of common people, but ignoring the law doesn't
rectify the situation.Employers must be held accountable, but the
offending governments must also stop fostering the flaunting of U.S. law. And,
those who illegally burden the system must be brought to account. This
philosophical issue has far and wide reaching financial impact on our economy
which cannot simply be swept under the political rug.That said, for
you LDS out there, search your BOM and you'll find reference there to the day
when the Lamanites will be returned to their lands. I'm not proclaiming
doctrine, but it makes one wonder.
Fred Vader in OK makes a clear point.When serving in Germany, I had
to "anmeld" and "abmeld", register my legality to be in any
city, upon every arrival and departure. It was the law, and I was clearly
instructed by leaders that I was to be accountable to the local and regional
laws. I was there as a religious emmisary, but that didn't absolve me from
"honoring, sustaining and upholding the law. Or am I just being
First off- to Fitness Freak-$100 Billion? Ridiculous, I'd love to see your
source on that. I've seen three sources that peg it at anywhere from $11 to $20
Billion and that includes all immigrants not just the illegals. Stop leading
with your emotions and check your facts. I assume anyone who wants
to kick out all the illegals is probably independently wealthy because I
guarantee unless you are, you won't be able to afford fresh produce or many
other goods that rely on aliens for manual labor. People are oblivious to how
much our economy relies on this help. Finally, legally immigrating
to this country is a difficult and expensive process. It is outside the capacity
of many. Those in power do not have the will to change that. Until this happens,
no matter what fence we build, dangerous and undesirable illegal immigration
will happen. Make it easier to follow the law and there will be less problems
with people not following it. I guarantee the US will be better off in every way
too if this happens.
How does one "get right with the law" while continuing to break it? To
me it should mean going back to their native country and applying legally to
re-enter the U.S. -- not hide out while waiting for amnesty.
RRB: You can love thy neighbor as a person but you can also not like that they
are here illegally. They are committing a crime. They can keep the families
intact by deporting the whole family not just the parents.crivas:
No one went to Mexico illegally.
This is fascinating to me. To a large extent it seems the comments on this story
represent believing Mormons being somewhat antagonistic toward the stance of the
LDS Church on immigration. Ive been LDS for more than 20 years, but no longer
believe the Church is what it claims to be. Yet I find myself agreeing with many
of the comments here and agreeing with the Church. Yes, I think our nation
should enforce the laws of the land. If a person is found to be here illegally,
I think that person should be deported. At the same time, I think our
immigration laws make it unnecessarily difficult to come here and work legally,
and I agree with the Church that we should approach this issue with compassion
and a desire to understand those who are coming here without legal
documentation. I believe most illegal immigrants are inspired to come here by
their values to improve the lot of their families. If we can help them do this
through legal channels, I think wed all benefit. Thanks for the
article and the discussion!Zack
There are several issues that seem to be combined together. The first issue is
the question of whether a law is being broken when people enter this country
without authorization or who stay here longer than allowed. That question is
easily answered. The U.S. has laws that clearly state who may enter, under what
conditions they may enter, and how long they may stay, once they have
entered.The next question is WHO determines whether those laws
apply, the individual or the courts. In America, the courts determine points of
law, not the individuals. The proper place to debate law is in the courtroom.Another questions is "worthiness". As a member of the L.D.S.
Church, I leave all determination of worthiness to the bishop. He is the
"common judge" for his congregation. If further determination has to
be made, he can call on the stake presidency and the high council to hold a more
formal proceeding.We can get into a lot of trouble if we try to
finagle our way through life, claiming that this law applies but that law does
not. It's best to be completely honest, all the time.
There is a solution but it is five steps and will be hated by the right. It goes
like this1. Lock down the borders as completely as possible2. Conditional amnesty for those here already. (ie Those without a felony
charge)3. A change of the immigration law to allow more skilled
workers into the Union. These laws should have a provision to change the number
allowed depending on a combination of economic, educational, and other
factors4. A change in immigration law to hammer businesses that hire
illegal immigrants after the new laws are made.5. Periodic review
and revision of laws to be certain that they meet the needs of immirgants,
citizens, and businesses.With this plan I think we could solve the
problem of illegal immigration.
@gudnuf4guvwrkFAIRs study showed the cost of illegal immigration at
$113 billion to taxpayers. That Federal, state and local. The cost to Utah was
over 400 million per year. The study was a government study. And I
picked produce and fruit before. You may pay $100-150 a year at the most.
Farmers have unlimited visas at their disposal. Coming here legally
takes time, and that's only right, since the demand is so high. The waiting is
long in only four countries, Mexico, Philippines, China, and India. That's
because of the demand in those countries. It use to be the individual
immigrating, now entire families want to come all at once. Visas can
only be given out for the work available. What good does it do to give out visas
when there are no jobs?
No, legalizing illegals (undoubtedly the implied point) would NOT "make the
country better." "...better, moral laws..."Current Federal immigration laws are "immoral?" Again, false. "Did we forget what the scripture said about visiting those in
prison?"What is this supposed to mean -- not enforcing the law?
Not sending criminals to prison, then?"The bedrock moral issue
is how we treat each other as children of God." And, from the same press
release: "...any state legislation that only contains enforcement
provisions is likely to fall short of the high moral standard of treating each
other as children of God." The subtle but quite clear
insinuation here is that to enforce the law is to mistreat mankind. Absolutely
false."The importance of keeping families intact."A specious statement, in this context. Deportees are perfectly free to
take their families with them.If the First Presidency endorses the
contents of the press releases cited (as is being implied), then why don't they
attach their names to them?Decidedly we indeed have more to worry
about in this discussion than just the 12th Article of Faith. We've also got a
little 13th Article of Faith problem going on: "We believe in being
@ARM, I agree with most of your idea (compare with my earlier post) with the
exception of the amnesty. The proposal to require aliens to actually go through
the correct process serves the rule of law without being unnecessarily harsh and
is workable if the government changes the number of and speed with which they
deal with immigration requests (as both you and I suggest). Thanks for thinking
this through - most people just post knee-jerk reactions and not solutions.
With over one million coming to this country legally each year, how can anyone
say it's to difficult? It's not if you follow the laws.One million
green cards each year and people think it's difficult and the laws are unfair?
It's business and their lust for illegal labor, just ask the
business immigration lawyers quoted in the story. Getting more cheap labor for
business is their job. I agree with other commentators, the Church
can do what they want, but the rules should apply equally. Breaking laws,
including felonies should not prevent baptism, Temple, or being a bishop. They
should not count against anyone. I urge the Bishops to be fair in their
If you're not LDS, then open your minds to others who are seeking reasonable and
charitable, rather than draconion, solutions to the immigration problem. If you
are LDS, then follow the prophet. Simple.And whoever suggested the
first presidency sign church press releases regarding immigration: If you think
the first presidency would allow these messages to continue without their
approval, you are truly naive.
I am a child of God . . . The Pharisees have inundated my beloved
church. Thank God that the church's Prophets and Apostles are closer to the
truth than these Pharisees.For the letter killeth and the spirit
giveth life.Yes Indeed, Utah was part of Mexico when my ancestors
arrived in 1847.
Its weird to think that a person here illegally can steal a social security
number and work (a felony and identity theft), take a job from a legal American-
causing that family to suffer and be unemployed, yet that person is considered
"honest" and can enter the temple and serve as your bishop. Those are
NOT the values I grew up with, no matter how the Deseret News wants to
@ goitalone, are you with FOX, taking a comment, completely missing the point,
then distorting it to advance your own position? No one is saying the INS (now
ICE, by the way) is Hitler. The point is that moral conscience sometimes does
take precedence over the law of the land. You cite the BOM, and it condemns
about unjust laws and rulers. Conscience matters, and life is not black and
white. And then you go on to say "the Lamanites will be returned to their
lands." Are you saying, then, that the illegal immigration is a
fulfillment of this? If so, and you believe in the BOM, then you may very well
support illegal immigration. You raise an issue contradictory to your
condemnation, proving that you yourself recognize that there are
inconsistencies, that life is not black and white, and maybe even that deep down
somewhere you acknowledge that conscience has a role instead of mindless
following of government authority. By the way, mindless obedience, isn't that
the way of totalitarianism?
@ BoomerJeffYour comments are spot on, we have laws for a reason and
the 12th article of faith for a reason and the church is flat out wrong on this
issue and a majority of members I know are outraged over it. Sorry, but you have
to be consistent and many members I know are suffering at the hands of illegals
who think the law doesn't apply to them, they shouldn't be blessed by the church
Unfortunately, the writer's bias shows through.For instance, all
U.S. citizens who oppose illegal immigration are treated as anti-immigration
(inferring current application of the Dillingham Commission). Not true.Illegal immigrants who are LDS are assumed to be "strong, spiritual
members." No proof is provided, only opinion.Other clearly
biased (and offensive) comments include "some LDS Church members haul out
the 12th Article of Faith and treat it as a solitary religious principle."
We have quite a few commandments and another 12 Articles of Faith to consider.
If you were to talk to those members of the Church opposing illegal immigration,
you might find that this isn't the only principle they hang onto. But you
didn't."I think the church has tried to stay as neutral as
possible..." For those of us who've been following this issue for years,
that is simply not true. The Church's media outlets have been and continue to be
used to spread support for illegal immigration.What many of us find
offensive is that the Church and its media outlets have opposed civil discourse
on this issue and have resorted to half truths, distortions, false accusations,
and name calling.
I used to come on this board and talk about LDS history and doctrine that I
struggled with. It has only been a week or so since I decided to set all that
aside and just be the best person I can be. But I wanted to share something.I have a very close friend (strong, active LDS) who encouraged me over
the years to set those doubts aside and just follow the Prophet. He knew every
historical and doctrinal issue I struggled with and yet none were able to chip
away at his testimony.But this immigration issue has almost brought
him to the brink of inactivity. For various reasons he has always held a strong
resentment for the growing number of illegal immigrants and the damage he
believes they have caused society in general as well as him personally. He is absolutely convinced that the Church's position is driven 100% by
the fact that so many members fall under the category of illegal immigrant and
that this stance is not in any way revelation.There was a time when
he felt everything the church did was revelation. Until now when it affects
something he feels strongly about.
I know of some folks whose SS number was used by illegals that got the tax
refunds the illegals couldn't claim.
Our current immigration laws are the most idiotic set of rules in the history of
I keep hearing the call to change existing laws, that the current laws are
"broken." Is it because millions of people (non-U.S. citizens) are
breaking them and they aren't being enforced? If immigration laws
were changed, would those inclined to cut in line, steal identity, smuggle, all
of a sudden stop? I have a hard time believing that.
Let's quote a little more of D&C 134:5. "We believe that all men
are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside,
WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS by the laws of such
governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen THUS
PROTECTED, ..."So we can see that UNCONDITIONAL obedience to
laws and judges is not required. Just because it is a law doesn't mean that it
is righteous. D&C 101: 77, 78 tells us that our constitution is
meant to protect everyone and that it is up to each man (and woman), because of
his agency, to decide whether to obey this law."According to
the laws and constitution of the people, which I have suffered to be
established, and should be maintained for the rights and protection of ALL
FLESH, according to just and holy principles; That EVERY MAN may act in doctrine
and principle pertaining to futurity, according to the moral aagency which I
have given unto him, that EVERY MAN may be accountable for his own sins in the
day of judgment."
After reading all the comments associated with this article I feel a sense of
cognitive dissonance. I have a hard time understanding how individuals are
premitted to have temple recommends or get baptized while being in open
violation of the law of the land in which they reside. At the same time I have
a testimony of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and his living prophet. I got to
feeling all riled up upon reading the comments to this article. After taking a
breath and saying a little prayer in hopes of a sense of peace on issue I
realize that it is better for me to trust in God and not the arm of the flesh on
this one. I know that President Monson lives the Gospel of Jesus Christ far
more perfectly than I do and can there fore be assured that the revelation he is
receiving on this issue is in line with the will of God even though I may not
intellectually put the two together.
Continuation: I feel that the adversary is more than happy to have this be a
wedge to those who allow it in their lives, even for only a moment while they
read this article. We must align our wills with that of our Father in Heaven if
we hope to overcome the adversary to our souls.
It is an interesting article, and the comments have varied from supportive to
opposed. My opinion is, if we have ten or twenty million illegals now, and
amnesty is granted, I can guarantee you that we will get another ten or twenty
million illegals, primarily from Mexico. However, it will not take ten years,
it will probably take two years. Our standard of living will
suffer, and if we think unemployment is high, just wait for the wave of illegals
who will descend on the States. Utah's illegal population will soar.
In addition to all of what I mentioned earlier, I live in the heart of
agriculture in America. I have lived here since I was six years old. I went to
a high school that was predominantly hispanic. I served my mission to the
people of Portugal and returned to Sanger/Clovis/Fresno and learned to speak
Spanish as it is similar to Portuguese. I am now a Dentist and work in Madera,
Ca in a Federally qualified health care clinic that provides medical and dental
care for the underserved/low income families. I do so mostly as a means to pay
off my school loans thru a loan repayment program. We receive federal grants
for farm laborers and other low income populations. I serve the people we are
talking about on a daily basis. I love them and they are good people... I also
love the ideas the church has put out in the statement on immigration. The only
part that I don't understand is the issue of Temple worthiness and/or baptism.
That being said, I have a limited understanding of many things and refer to my
previous posts for dealing with cognitive dissonance!
ShaunMcC, I think that I may have made a muddied point when it comes to
"amnesty." The amnesty that I propose will be to allow the immigrants
to become permanent residents and then on to full citizenship, should they so
choose. The amnesty would only be extended to those that filed the
paper work in a decent amount of time, to be a permanent resident. After the
deadline is passed then they go back to illegal status under the new laws. As
such employers and Public Service announcements should be made to be sure that
the enitre populace has knowledge of the new deal. That way no one can say,
"I never knew."The purpose for the amnesty and the filing
of paper work is to be able to keep track of everyone and then to get taxes off
of them as well. Furthermore this amnesty will only be offered to those that
have not been convicted of a felony. This plan will work if every
step is accomplished in the order outlined. Secure borders, then amnesty, then
new laws. That is the logical progression.
It's easy to blame the inept politicians, the greedy business owners but we have
only ourselves to blame. It is "we" the people who demanded 99 cent
hamburgers, $5 lawn care and below minimum wage nannies and janitorial services.
We are the demand and we received exactly what we asked for, low-cost labor
that satisfied our wants. We are our own problem!We can say others
should solve the problem with laws, declarations, and defense of our American
culture, but until there is real reform the abuse will continue. If people are
looking for real solutions from politics it will require real welfare reform
(eliminate entitlements) and tax reform (everyone pays something.) Since this
would require even the free-loading "legal" citizens of this country
to hop off the free-loader bus as well as immigrants; legal and illegal, to
contribute something, it will not happen because there is no longer any moral or
political will to do the expedient in this country. Everybody is acting in
their own best interest. Since the LDS church's mission is
promoting the salvation of individuals and family, legal immigration status is
of lesser concern in the eternal perspective of the leaders.
I too have a problem with people now commonly making the statement that the
Mormon pioneers entered Utah illegally. There was no offical Utah in July of
1847. It was a land "claimed" by Mexico. There were no Mexican
immigration laws governing the territories that made up the future state of
Utah. There were no immigration laws broken. There were no Mexican identities
stolen. There was no taking of Mexican resources. There were no permanent
Mexican settlements. A mere 8 months aftr the Mormons came to Utah, February of
1848, this disputed land officially became part of U.S. Territory via the Treaty
of Gualalupe Hidalgo.
It will be interesting to see how many members of the church will end up losing
their their testimonies over something of little importance when viewed with an
eternal perspective. The current prophet will always be more important that the
previous ones. The last General Conference will always be more relevant than
ancient scripture. This is a concept that many LDS church members have had
absolutely no problem with until now. I was an ardent supporter of exporting
all illegal immigrants as any one until recently. I still struggle with the
ramifications of what this policy will bring but I find peace in the simple
phrase ... "follow the prophet."
in regards to the "obey the law until you get it changed" crowd - Our nation would be nowhere without civil disobedience to irrational laws at
its founding. Also, Christ taught this principle when he stopped the adulteress
from being stoned, as the irrational law demanded. I understand that
immigration has become so complicated that we do not in effect have the open
door policy that allowed my ancestors to come in by simply applying and
registering with the state. There are too many preventative hurdles and hoops;
it stops equal access to the country and inadvertently encourages people to
break the law. If legal immigration were in fact accessible to the poor,
uneducated and otherwise, rational and even religious illegal immigrants that we
see now would not criminalize themselves by breaking the law in order to improve
their standard of living.
How many of those who complain about the illegal immigrants being worthy of the
temple recommend found themselves being 5mph over the speed limit on their way
to church yesterday and slowed down? How many signaled all of their turns
properly? How many came to a complete stop at very stop sign? How many would
support a law that would attach an electronic device to your car to monitor your
traffic violations and deport you to Mexico on your third strike? Why is your
zeal for the law the strongest when the law punishes somebody else, but not
you?Should you not be thankful that you do not have to go to Mexico to be
a missionary anymore? They come to you, they are your next door neighbors. You
can teach them the gospel. All you need to do is find some courage to knock on
their door and open your mouth. With that you will develop compassion, and
understand through the Spirit the position of the Church on immigration.
If you don't like the way the Church has counseled us on the immigration issue,
perhaps you should go start your own: The Church of the White and Delightsome
Ark-Steadiers of the Twelfth Article of Faith.
I think there are very many people who underestimate just how unjust our
immigration laws are. It's easy for you to sit there and say the law is the law,
and until it changes you have to obey it. Think about for a second. You come to
this country legally. You establish yourself and your family here. Then the
needed paperwork for you to stay in what has now become your home gets tied up
in bureacratic red tape. Are you supposed to give up everything to go back and
live in squalor? You've played by the rules. You've contributed to society, and
now you have to go back and live in hut, because bureaucrat doesn't like the way
you filled out your paperwork. This is not just. It is not moral. I find it very
hard to judge somebody in this situation. The law needs to be changed. It is
priority #1. The change should come before we deport one more person.
I'm going to ask a question of each of you. Think about before you answer them.
It has come to you own personal knowledge that you have 10 illegal aliens in
your ward/branch. You have the following breakdown of the families of the
ward/branch.60 hispanics15 African decent10 Arab
decent5 American Indians200 Caucasaions from various countriesNow the question can you pick out the illegals in the ward/branch on
just the information provided.If you can't how do you expect the
Bishop, the missionaries and even the Stake President to do it. What happens is
that many of don't know who they are until it comes time for their deportation.
It is then that we learn a lot more about them than we ever knew. It is then we
find out it is our loving Bishop or our Home Teacher or just our closest friend.
Does it change our minds of these individuals or do we start petitioning to
allow them to stay.When it happens to you or someone you are close
to then the rules and laws change.
In the biography of President Spencer W. Kimball written by his son, Edward, the
following is recorded:For President Kimball to express an opinion
boldly and expect compliance was rare, Francis Gibbons (his personal secretary)
remembered an incident because it was so unusual. In a joint meeting of the
First Presidency and the Twelve considering whether illegal aliens should be
baptized, some of the Brethren expressed the view that as law breakers they
should not be baptized. After hearing all the views, President Kimball
reportedly said, I think they should be baptized. That ended the discussion. This must of been before 1979 when I served my mission in New York City
and undocumented indivdules were being baptized without complaint.
"Follow the prophet."I am astonished by the automatic
assumption that these press releases (click "Immigration: Church Issues New
Statement" at the end of the article for an example) are the words of the
prophet. Understand: I do not doubt that the prophet does in fact
approve all of these press releases. But once again: why then does
President Thomas S. Monson not attach his name, and the name of his office, to
them?You, oldcougar, may regard an INCOGNITO statement, issued by
the Public Affairs Department, as the Mind, Will, and Word of God by Revelation
if you want. I will not. If it is good enough to be regarded as such, then it
is good enough for Thomas S. Monson to attach his name AND the name of his
office to it. He has attached his name to NONE of these press releases! And, no, that is not rationalization, on my part; rather, that is
standard convention: if a spokesman in fact speaks for someone, that spokesman
invokes that person's name AND the name of that person's office (in this case,
"Thomas S. Monson," and, "President" (Prophet),
respectively)."Thou shalt have NO other Gods before me."
When a people's allegiance is to the political party rather than the faith, and
give more credence to radical politicians and pundits than to the Lord's
mouthpiece, it's a sad time to live in.
re:Speak English - USARight on. Great comments. There seems to be
some murky, fuzzy , language being used regarding illegal immigration and I
continue to be confused by it. Certainly there is great pressure from the
Mexican govt. on the LDS church to make allowance for illegal immigration or
suffer the consequences with temple building and missionary work in Mexico.
Truth be told, I think it is this pressure that is at the root of the Church's
soft and confusing stance on illegal immigration. There comes a point however
where you simply have to do what is right and let the consequences follow. What
is right is deporting all illegals immediately regardless of their story AND
THEN encouraging them to return the right way and EARN a green card. In other
words, uphold the laws of the United States and at the same time offer a hand of
friendship to any and all Hispanic LDS members who want to come to here and do
so in a lawful way.What are we LDS members saying if we tell our Hispanic LDS
brothers and sisters that we will break the law for them because we love them???
My concern is that given the fact that we have, in this country, the right to
change the law to suit ourselves, we seem to still want to ignore them, when we
are not satisfied with them, instead of attempting to change them.The other thing that concerns me is that we start everyone in the gospel by
telling them that the scriptures support and define the church. I don't think
we have any business suggesting that there are exceptions.I would
submit that our church leadership can do but a few things:1. Create
new scripture, through revelation, presumably.2. Modify scripture,
through updating, putting a different understanding, etc.3. They
could even delete scripture, it they chose to do so.In regard to
this issue, they have done none of the above, and none of the above options
include simply ignoring the 12th AofF, or most of the `34th Section.When we approach a new convert, we say, here is our scripture, this is what we
believe, and this describes the way we live. How many would not call us to
task, if they recognized how we behave in this instance?
Remember politicians on both sides of the aisle give us the philosophies of men
mingled with scriptures. The lds church has spoken and to say other wise is
apostatizing from the church. Aren't these the same members who bashed the
members of the church who spoke out against Prop 8? Hypocrisy runs
deep with many lds faithful. I believe they were called pharisees and sadducees
in the New Testament.
Latter-day Saints assessing this issue need to be objective and consider
personal motives and feelings. Filtering through information and determining the
real situation is not easy and may not be totally possible. It is important to
realize objectivity can be clouded by personal prejudices. Elder Richard G.
Scott gave counsel that is helpful in considering such an emotionally laden
topic: The inspiring influence of the Holy Spirit can be overcome or masked by
strong emotions, such as anger, hate, passion, fear, or pride. When such
influences are present, it is like trying to savor the delicate flavor of a
grape while eating a jalapeño pepper. Both flavors are present, but one
completely overpowers the other. In like manner, strong emotions overcome the
delicate promptings of the Holy Spirit. Those who take "the
Holy Spirit for their guide" will not be deceived.
Previous fears about European immigration may or may not have been
"irrational." Certainly the Great Wave of pre-1921 immigration didn't
wreck the country. On the other hand, there was a 40-year near-moratorium on
immigration, during which those immigrants -- many of them low-skilled, with
often drastically different cultural assumptions than Americans -- were
assimilated.Left-liberals argue strenuously that modern,
Mexican-dominated immigration patterns are just the same as Great Wave
immigration patterns. Sure, there are some similarities. There are
similarities in everything. But -- for curiosity's sake -- could they try and
think of some differences, as well?For one thing, Great Wave
immigrants were assimilated (with the help of the aforementioned pause in mass
immigration) into an America that still had civilizational self-confidence.
Modern Howard Zinn-fed left-liberalism propagandizes for a narrative of
traditional American culture into which no decent person should aspire to
assimilate. Just as Californians migrating to Utah tend to make
Utah more like the California the Californians left, so Mexicans migrating to
the United States can't help but make the United States more like the Mexico the
immigrants were impelled to leave. That's not a good thing.
@ EsquireYes indeed there are inconsistencies. I was taking issue
with your implied position that it is aceptable to pick and choose the laws that
we need to obey. You exploded my response to suggest civil disobedience and
conscience based adherence trumps the 12th AOF which is the cited genesis of
these postings.I did not imply that moral inconsistencies didn't
exist or have merit in this discussion. I do challenge the "pick and
choose" obedience position. Your choosing to go 85 mph in a 55 zone does
endanger me (example only).As for the BOM reference, it was merely
an observation that our current immigration difficulty may have another basis,
if you accept the BOM as your ethical compass.And lastly, you used
Hitler's Germany as an example of blindly following governmental law. I contend
that the example is inaptly rendered in the case of the issue discussed here.
The US isn't taking over the region. Quite the opposite, the US is allegedly
defending its own borders. 180* different.
The article makes some very good points and is logically written by a person who
knows the law and has the experience. I am still wondering how a person who has
illegally entered into this country (breaking the law) is able to secure a
temple recommend and serve in a position of leadership within the LDS Church.
These things do not seem to go together from what I know of the LDS faith. If a
person cannot be truthful about answering questions whether or not they are
honest in their dealings with others and also cannot answer correctly about
sustaining the law, what does that say about the need for a temple recommend? It
seems to me that everything else is based upon how you answer these questions.
There was an issue over the past few months of a couple of branch presidents in
Utah who ran into problems with ICE. How did the LDS Church respond to this,
knowing that these individuals were breaking the law. As a person on the outside
looking in, this brings up alot of questions. Any comments?
Obviously I was not there when Joseph Smith penned the Articles of Faith. So I
do not specifically know what he meant with the 12th article. Here is what it
means to me: 1. We are subject to kings, rulers etc. 2. Kings, rulers etc are
expected to be honest, integrous, to serve their people. 3. Kings, rulers rarely
are totally or sometimes never are honest, integrous, in serving the people.
Eventually nearly all will serve a few and always themselves. 4. I do not think
for even one minute that Joseph Smith meant that we blindly and whole-heartedly
sustain kings, rulers etc who are evil. 5. He was alive and surely knew about
our constitution that outlines what happens to evil people. 6. We have elections
and other methods that evil people can be tossed out if we hold the line. 7.
Illegal immigration falls into not sustaining the law, therefore not following
the 12th Article of Faith. 8. I think that we as Mormons are not looking to
embrace illegal immigration but rather the legal and jusifiable law. 9. If you
are here illegal, I do not see how you can say that you are Mormon.
Cowboy Joe said - "Aren't these the same members who bashed the members of
the church who spoke out against Prop 8?" So true!And Patriot said - "Truth be told, I think it is this pressure that is at
the root of the Church's soft and confusing stance on illegal
immigration."Umm, I don't know how many times people have
criticized others in these comment sections for believing the changes in
polygamy and blacks/Priesthood were due to political or outside pressures. It
would be interesting Patriot to know if you feel the Church gave into pressure
regarding those changes as well?Do others see the incredible irony
here where some of the more liberal/prone to doubt posters are having to remind
the die-hards to follow the Prophet?Bill in Nebraska - I haven't
always agreed with you but I must say you seem to be someone who makes sure his
views are in line with the Church on all things. You have had to knock heads
with the doubters on some issues and now it looks like you will have to do the
same with the supposed die-hards.Maybe we are ALL really cafeteria
The simple solution is LEGAL immigration. No one has a problem with that and no
laws are broken. Simple! Viva Legal Immigration.
As I mentioned earlier, I do think the temple questions have relevance on
whether or not someone should be given a temple recommend, especially the
question regarding honesty. That being said, as another poster mentioned, it is
a question/answer session, not an interrogation. If the individual answers that
they are being honest, then the Bishop/Stake President will likely take them at
their word. Just curious as to how they deal with it if the individual says
"yes" but the Bishop/Stake President does know they are here
illegally. Has the church decided this is not dishonest, or are we justifying
the sin to save the sinner?On baptism, I agree with Spencer W.
Kimball. They should be allowed to be baptized. Baptism is for all of us
sinners. But, usually the church doesn't allow baptism where they know the
sinner will continue to sin (i.e. unwed couples living together). Apparently violating a country's immigration laws is not considered a sin by
the church. Which is ok with me, but maybe that is how the church should phrase
it, and be a little more honest in the approach, if that is indeed the case.
I appreciate the fact that the church allows branch presidents and missionaries
to serve within the United States even though the church knows they aren't here
legally. It's pretty obvious that the church is, in effect, stating that legal
status isn't nearly as important as any number of other things, and that it's no
barrier in serving God, even in an official capacity. It's unfortunate that
many members of the church place their politics over their religion when
condemning those who aren't here legally.
It seems to me that the following is a common interpretation of the 12th article
of faith:"We believe in being subject to kings, presidents,
rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law; and we
demand that all others be equally observant or submit to our justice."As opposed to this:"We believe in being subject to
kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining
the law; and if others fail to do so (including ourselves from time to time), we
will nevertheless show charity and mercy toward them."The first
interpretation is worthy of John Calvin, the man who thought that as soon as a
person is born into this world, it's already too late to save him. Such an
outlook is intolerant, inconsiderate, jealous, rigid and totalitarian. Ah yes,
it is a straight gate and a narrow path, is it not? Let all who stray suffer the
consequences.The second interpretation is, I submit to you, actually
Christian.Let us not allow our scriptures to interfere with our
@crivasNope! Utah was not part of Mexico when the Mormons entered
the Salt Lake Valley. It was part of Mexico when they left for Utah. The war
with Mexico lasted from 1846 to 1848. By July of 1847 American forces were
entirely in control of the region. Signing the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo in
February 1848 was a mere formality.The saints were fleeing an
abusive government and were probably profoundly disappointed to end up back in
the same country they were fleeing from.
I have the feeling some of your readers would want me prosecuted for jaywalking
if I ran into the street to save a child from being hit by a car. In my
view,it's largely a question of priorities and prosecutorial discretion, and the
deportation of 12 million illegal aliens should be extremely low on the list.
pmccombs,I submit to you that Calvin was a far better Christian than
you could ever be.
Most people would agree that the U.S tax law is broken, immigration law is on
par with our tax law in its complexity and stupidity. One example of our broken
immigration law is there are around 3,ooo,ooo U.S. citizens that are married to
undocumented individuals. Our current law states that the way you make this
right is the undocumented individual returns to their country of origin and are
then barred from re-entry for 10 years. This is a recent addition to immigration
law since about 1996. When you have family members that are in this position
arguments and statistics that come from organizations that have ties to white
supremacy groups like NumberUSA and FAIR have little appeal. I have been told
that there is "no compassion for law breakers." That is not in harmony
with the spirit of Christ.
I am a firm beleiver that if you enter this country illegally and are costing us
taxpayers money for medical,schooling, and other benifits that should go to the
people of the U.S. I am for no form of a free pass, and I also beleive that they
should be sent back to the country they came from. It may sound cold hearted,
but the Law is the law and let enforce it.
Y ask Y,I see that you share Calvin's determinism in declaring this
immutable impossibility for one whom you know only through some 200 words or
less. I take it that you and Calvin are Christians of a kind; mighty in judgment
and poor in compassion. Admirable, yet also pitiable.
By the time the Saints enter Salt Lake Valley the United States had defeated
Mexico in war & the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo rendered the most of what is
now the western United States to the USA. But, current administrations do not
respect our sovereignty or they would enforce existing immigration laws.
Instead they pay lip service & now we have members being instructed to look
the other way. Institutions must perform their duty & uphold the laws on the
books or change the laws.
FAIR should have had someone from FAIRUS come and speak to them. They obviously
need more information about the problem than their immigration lawyers could
provide. Then again, that seems to be the problem. An LDS man was recently
speaking to some academics at Sunstone. But it was all pro-amnesty, the system
is broken, nonsense.No one talks about impact or enforcement strategies at
these events.Let's not pretend they are fair hearings of the issues,
because they are not.
Don't you think there should be a distinction drawn between those who enter the
country illegally and those who entered legally, but are technically now here
illegally because our bureaucracy is inefficient? Conservitaves, of all people,
should sympathize with immigrants who run into problems with bureaucrats.
Immigrants have to put up with the same big bad government we do. I don't think
my fellow LDS members would be so hung up on the 12th Article of Faith if they
just thought about this issue a little bit more.
These people in the article do not represent the Church, they represent business
interests. And the LDS church does not sponsor nor endorse the group they were
speaking to. I have not heard one person from the First Presidency
stating this, it's always been the business arm of the Church. Gods law is Gods
law, it doesn't change, except by the hand of man. Asking for
compassion for those who have broken multiple laws, but ignoring those hurt by
their actions shows a true lack of compassion. I find this action
speakers louder than words, and it will guide my future actions. God gave the
members a voice, use it in October. This country will never support
another amnesty, nor will my eyes be blinded to business and it' use of illegal
labor to hurt my fellow members. I will not stay blind to the actions of our
leaders, that sell out their fellow man for the business interests, nor will I
ignore the business interests of the LDS church's business arm involvement in
this. The division has risen over what's good for business. That to me is wrong.
To: Timj | 2:09 p.m. Aug. 15, 2011 South Jordan, UT - I do appreciate your
comments but have an issue with those that are called to serve being in good
standing with not only the law of the land but also the LDS Church. When in
these positions, these people may be called upon to help provide assistance and
guidance regarding these issues. If the individual is here illegally, it is hard
for them to be able to utlize all resources without putting themselves and
others in jeopardy. Also, it seems to me that when you set an idnividual apart
to serve as a leader of a congragation, the LDS Church should do all they can to
make sure that this person is in good standing as both a citizen and as a member
of the church. If not, the LDS Church is setting themselves up for disaster and
creating more problems. It also portrays a double-standard to others. I can then
start to look at other rules and say that they don't apply to me because I have
a good excuse for not following them completely.
MTaylor, thanks for displaying why we are not yet Zion.
16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, thus hath the Father commanded methat I
should give unto this people this land for their inheritance.(Book
of Mormon | 3 Nephi 16:16)-- AND --14 And the Father
hath commanded me that I should give unto you this land, for your inheritance.
(Book of Mormon | 3 Nephi 20:14)To whom does the world belong? Is it
man's? Or is it God's?And, if it be God's world, is it not his to
give or to take away?I fear those who try to remove this mote from
their "neighbor's" eye, and fail to see the beam in their own, will,
with others, cast, or try to cast many more "illegal aliens" out of
this nation.I expect it will be then that this prophecy, twice given
by the resurrected Christ to the remnants of Jacob, and to their posterity, will
be fulfilled. Then, in justice, God will allow some of them to scourge the
gentiles in this land, perhaps including many (LDS) Church members!?!Truly, as the Jews would cast the Samaritans out of their land, so would many
among us cast out this remnant of Jacob!
I have to say that I have a real big problem with my church, for all intents and
purposes, turning a blind eye to what is an illegal act. With that said, I have
compassion for those from other countries that want to come here and make a
better life for their families. I can't stand the thought of those that come
here to sell drugs, drop anchor babies and get taken care of for the rest of
their lives by my tax dollars that I would rather see go to our own citizens
that need help due to no fault of their own, or even to the survivors of the
Japanese earthquake and tsunami. My big problem with this is the
fact that I can't go to the Temple and be sealed to my wife because of a legal
matter with my ex-wife that lied in court and in paperwork which, in essence
makes me unworthy because I won't give in, yet someone here illegally gets a
free pass, serves in positions of leadership, and can get a Temple recommend all
the while breaking a federal law. How FAIR is that?
TO IDaho Coug: The problem with so many is that they allow their own personal
opinions to become their view points. When the Church agrees with them on the
polygamy issue, blacks in the priesthood, the three witnesses they will stand
and be adament defenders of the truth. When their own personal opinions differ
from the counsel given then they rant and rave the other way. This question has
greatly bothered me for sometime but unlike most of my republican counter parts
I disagree with them on immigration. I can't see how you can run 12 million
people out of the country. I can't see how this can't be done to destroy
families, individuals and companies. I understand the 12 Article of Faith and I
understand the questions asked. I ponder each time I answer them. I've
received no confirmation on the immigration issue but I just can't see spending
millions/billions of dollars to do something that can be done much cheaper and
better for all concerned. Most people have ignored the question because they
don't want to ponder their own actions. Ask yourself what Christ would do and I
believe he would do exactly what President Monson is.
@Diligent Dave 4:25 p.m. Aug. 15, 2011So what you are saying is,
back before there were well defined borders in this country, before we had the
12th Article of Faith which leaves ZERO room for individual interpretation, that
the words contained in the Book of Mormon supersede what has been established as
the law of the land at this time, and that we as members of the church should
just accept these ILLEGAL aliens simply because of scripture that is hundreds
and hundreds and hundreds of years old? Got it.
A fellow 'saint' in my (LDS) ward pointed out that what those who are illegal
aliens have done in entering and/or staying in this country (US) wrongly is
classified as a misdemeanor, not a felony. I don't know whether he is correct in
understanding this matter of the law.But, one might ask that he or
she who is without sin cast out the first illegal.
The irony of this is that if President Polk had, as some recommended, annexed
all of Mexico to the U.S. in 1848, instead of just the northern half, we
wouldn't have this problem. Mexico would be a functioning country, just like
Texas and California are (or were, in the case of the latter), and would be
attracting immigrants rather than exporting them.The only thing that
wouldn't change, would be that Central American migrants to the American states
of Oaxaca and Campeche, would be treated more humanely than they are now treated
when they enter the *Mexican* states of Oaxaca and Campeche. "I can't see how you can run 12 million people out of the
country."Don't have to. Even with the pathetically trivial
increases in immigration enforcement, coupled with the recession, many of those
people are voluntarily heading back home on their own. Whatever
policy is ultimately chosen -- and it should be humane to those 12 million -- it
can't just pave the way for *another* 12 million.
Seems to me that Utah folk, especially GOP Mormons, can ignore our church's
recommendations to use love and compassion in the immigration debate just as
much as Latino illegal Mormon immigrants can ignore our church's recommendation
to not overstay a tourist visa or to not swim across the river.....Neither side
seems to be listening much to the 'brethren' lately. But there is
also some hypocrisy on the Utahn side too.....I mean going to the Temple
regularly and to church every week but not loving their (mostly) Mexican illegal
neighbour? yeah , there's some hypocrisy here too....
Why doesn't the prophet put the Churches money where his mouth is? Why don't you
faithful who claim to follow the prophet pay an extra 5% to help cover the
financial burden the Illegals are causing this State and Country?
@Ignorance is NOT BlissWhat I am saying is what I said. Whose land
is this to give?And if you are a member of the (LDS) Church, then I
hope you read more than just the last part of The Pearl of Great Price. I hope
that you especially read The Book of Mormon.The prophecy of a
"remnant of Jacob" was given by Christ three times while he was among
the remnant of Nephites and Lamanites who were left, after God had used the
elements (volcanoes, hurricanes, tornadoes, floods, mudslides, etc) to kill off
the less worthy descendants of Israel.3 Nephi 21:12 & 13 are
fairly illstrative.And, BTW, do you assume that "illegal
immigrants" take more than they give? I wot not. Did you know, for example,
that without them the US would have been in the economic depression it is now
entering into long ago? The Census Bureau's figures indicate that Caucasians in
the US have had sub-replacement fertility rates since the early 1970's. You
cannot grow an economy without growing population. Illegals have helped save
this country from economic depression. They buy homes, cars, etc when &
Coming here illegally is a misdemeanor and civil crime. It's punishment is
deportation plus a fine and jail time. Usually the fine and jail time are
ignored, that's compassion. Returning here is a felony after deportation.
Working here illegally, lying on the 1-9, stolen ID's using false documentation
to work are all felonies. As is hiring a person here illegally. It's
not a stone, it's a large rock that grows into a mountain as more crimes come
from the initial act. No compassion for the legal immigrant who gets
his job stolen, no compassion for the person who has his wages lowered, no
compassion for the higher taxes to subsidize business and their illegal labor,
no compassion for those who have their id's stolen, no compassion for the
businessman who has to compete with the dishonest businessman, no compassion for
those waiting in other lands to come here. And no calls for
compassion for this countries poor who face stiff budget cuts. None. They are
all being ignored. This is a struggle between business and labor
that threatens this nations sovereignty. And some in the Church have taken sides
Interesting comments on many sides. I definitely concur with the thoughts that
one must work to change laws if inappropriate, but in the interim, must live by
and sustain those in effect. To do otherwise invites the accurate label of
hypocrisy. During WW2, LDS church leaders asked members of
aggressive states to work within their capability to change policy and laws that
were clearly wrong but to still support the laws of their nation, even when it
caused them to fight against (and potentially kill) brothers of other
nations.As for temple recommends, there is a question that asks if
one is honest in all their doings. It is difficult to reconcile honesty when
one is knowingly living outside established law. If one believes this law is
wrong, and hence one is honest when not abiding by it, it certainly and
legitimately opens the question, Which other laws are wrong, and thus I should
not obey?My guess is, none of us want to go there.For me
love is perhaps more about consistency, than in selecting which laws one will
not support, and calling that "love".
There is nothing more repugnant than hiding behind the mantle of God or religion
in order to achieve sinister goals. What other laws would the Mormons like us
to violate in order to fill their temples?Unfortunately, the
position of the Mormons on illegal immigration accounts for the reason many
voters will not consider Romney, Huntsman, or any other candidate with Mormon
ties for any high office. Contrary to what many would like us to believe,
eliminating candidates has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with
the position on illegal aliens by those who practice this religion.
Diligent Dave,You "wot not"?Seriously?
crivas | 1:33 a.m. Aug. 15, 2011 LOGAN, UTThere seems to be a lot of
hypocrisy around here in Utah. Do you guys remember that the LDS Pioneers moved
illegally to Mexico when nobody else would accept them. Utah belonged to Mexico
when Brigham Young and the other pioneers moved in. I am LDS, a legal immigrant
and I love Utah, but I hate when I see people pretending to be all righteous
when in fact they only see their limited perspective. Guys, please love each
othercrivas, please point us all to Mexico's 1840-1865 immigration
laws that support your thoughts that LDS Pioneers broke Mexican immigration law.
We believe in the Ten Commandments including Thou shalt not kill but we go to
@Diligent Dave I think you are completely missing my point. Regardless of what
revelation was given in the Book of Mormon, this country is still the United
States of America with borders and laws governing them, and we are still a
church that does have and is supposed to live by the 12th Article of Faith.
Show me the gray area or what makes it right to dismiss it, please. I do feel
for the people that want to come to the greatest country on earth to provide for
their families and give them a better life, but not at the expense of the actual
tax paying citizens of this country. You can throw out all the numbers you want
about the illegals saving us from an earlier recession, but I live in Ca., where
our budget takes a hit in the billions simply paying for birthing the anchor
babies and then paying them all the wonderful entitlements that have been
enacted. There is NO WAY they are contributing as much as they are costing us.
The casting stones quote is cute, but doesn't apply when taking into
consideration our A of F.
I believe Polygamy was deemed illegal and yet was continued to be practiced by
high ranking members of the LDS church. That said, having seen what life is
like south of the border, it's hard to imagine any charitable person finding
objection to someone trying to make a better life for themselves by coming to
the U.S. Maybe I'm missing some of the points, but I don't think I'm the only
There's nothing irrational, irresponsible, or mean-spirited about wanting your
homeland to maintain its sanity and solvency. I only wish that those who want
to give everything to the entire third world population were the only ones
paying for it. But unfortunately, we all have to pay . . . even those who don't
adhere to any particular religious doctrine.
I think all of us can see that this issue has strong opions on both sides on how
illeagal imagrints should be treated and considered. One individual used the
example of the women caught in adultrey and was brought before Jesus. That
individual pointed out that the women was told to go and sin no more, but he
left out one important part this example. Those individuals who brought her
before the Savior reminded Jesus what the law of Moses required when someone was
caught in adultry and that was to stone them to death. At the insistance of the
Pharaises and Scribe they demand Jesus tell them what they should do. Jesus
said, "he who is without sin let him cast the first stone." I know of
only one person who has never done anything wrong, committed a sin, or a crime
and that is Jesus. If he being the only perfect person on this earth can show
compassion toward another who had broken the law, then how much more should we.
We may consider them illegals but they are still children of our Heavenly Father
and deserve to be treated as such.
Who can doubt that 3 Nephi 22 (which is a quote of Isaiah 53) is a comfort to
our Lamanite brethren for the shameful way in which they are sometimes treated
by people in our community and even fellow members of their church? It ends
with this solemn warning: 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together against
thee, not by me; whosoever shall gather together against thee shall fall for thy
sake.Has the time come to separate the sheep from the goats? Who's
on the Lord's side who? And who are the goats? I think 2 Nephi 6 makes that
pretty clear where in verse 13 the Lord says that those who persecute fellow
saints will someday bow down and eat the dust from their feet they will be so
ashamed. There are also some words there about who are members of the great and
abominable church. Sorry for the strong words, but if you want to fight against
the Lord, you may as well do it with full knowledge.
DaleC,I find your interpretation of scripture "wrestful"
and your comment completely inappropriate and out of line.
True, there is no question in a temple recommend interview about "are you
here in this country illegally" but there IS a question that asks if the
individual is, and I quote: "deal(ing) honestly with your fellow
man."Liberals, and even liberals in the LDS church, can spin it
any way they want, but there's no way you can honestly say you're being honest
with your fellow man when you're breaking your neighbor's laws by being here
illegally every day.
This article would make sense if all who cross the border illegally did indeed
have in mind a better life for themselves and family,meant no harm to this
country and would be willing to learn to care for themselves. I am Roman
Catholic and my Church also came out in support of Utahs Guestworker program.
Priests routinely counsel lawbreakers to surrender to the law and deal with
their punishment.I am not new to a religion that asks one to keep your heart
open and obey worldly laws.I have always tried to do so. However,I can tell you
the nuns did not take lightly to crowding in line at lunch time no matter how
hungry you might be or showing any side of greed. They did however always
encourage sharing and kindness. They could turn on a dime in their determination
of which was which. I am thinking perhaps some folks either never had the
opportunity of this lesson ,forgot it or no longer care.
I've given this a lot of thought and it makes sense to me that:- we
should close the border with appropriate/adequate fencing and enforce it with
armed guards- illegal aliens > 18 should be made to pay fines for
breaking immigration laws; the longer they've been here illegally the larger the
fine should be- illegals should pay any/all applicable state and
federal back-taxes they may owe- English should be the ONLY language
allowed in any/all government transactions and business forums (language either
binds us together or allows us to fall apart)- immigrants should
sign legal documentation stating they will always fly the American flag properly
if they wish to fly the flag (no more of this upside down and below Mexican
flags like in that one CA high school)- any illegal caught cheating
on the fines or mandatory language tests will be apprehended and deported. No
exceptions.- children of illegals born in the U.S. must be
determined as illegals too, so yes, the 14th amendment must be viewed again in
its original intention- if they'll do all this, they can stay, but
they will never be granted the privilege of voting (
Diligent Dave,"You cannot grow an economy without growing
population."Sure you can. You accumulate capital, which makes
each member of the population more productive. The result is greater output,
even with the same number of workers.I am far from convinced that
importing millions of low-skill workers into an economy where there is
increasingly little need for low-skill workers (now that hundreds of millions of
low-skilled Chinese and Indians have shown up to the global economic party). At
some point, global population growth is going to level off, one way or the
other. It's even happened in Mexico; as societies modernize away from
subsistence agriculture, children change profit centers to overhead, and women
have fewer of them. Societies like Japan which figure out how to cope with this
shift (without doubling down on the problem by importing bodies from
less-developed societies) may be ahead of the game here. Reliance on
low-skilled immigrants to keep economic growth rolling just postpones things,
and may make us less able than Japan to cope with the inevitable. You'll notice
that Japanese don't riot when the economy hits a bump.
In the LDS faith,where do the 10 Commandments fall.Ahead of any church teachings
or guidelines or after the teachings of bible verses or prophets teachings. Commandments 8,9,10 make it pretty simple for most of us. The Bible verses
that encourage good works and care for others in need in no way encourage the 10
Commandments to be ignored just because our churches have decided to advocate
social justice before Gods law. Surely there is not one educated person who
believes man can live on earth fairly and orderly with out laws. When we start
picking and choosing which laws to ignore,expect the end of that society to be
close at hand.
tobiwan: Those inalienable rights that you ae talking about are for U S
citizens alone and not those who are here illegally. They have no rights here.
All of you self-righteous people that cannot understand how a temple recommend
can be given to an undocumented alien, ask yourself how many laws YOU have
broken today. How many times did your speedometer creep even one tick above the
posted limit? How many times did you half-way stop at a stop sign? Those are
the easy examples, but there are more. Ever drive with a loaded firearm? Ever
help a friend bring down their deer? Ever burned your favorite song from a
friends CD or MP3 file? Did you turn yourself in for any of those crimes? Did
you confess to your Bishop? How did you answer the question about being honest
in your dealings with your fellow men?He that is without sin among
you, let him first cast a stone. Where are those thine accusers?
Snowman: What part of 'inalienable' don't you understand? Read the
Declaration. When it was written there were no U.S. citizens because there was
There is walls with restricted access around the Temple grounds in Salt Lake.
They also restrict access to their property, and remove people not following
their rules. But the US cannot do the same because it's not
compassionate? The Churches principles on immigration are to love
they neighbor. If a parent does not prepare their child once in a while with
punishment, are they loving their child? We are all better off when everyone
plays on a level field, and follows the laws. And keeping families
together is the US current policy. The children return with their parents. Just
like US servicemen overseas who take family, the children move with the parents.
Business immigration lawyers interpreting the Churches statements
will always try to put a pro-illegal, pro-business spin on it. But
in the end, we are in a long tern recession, and with 9% unemployment that's
lasted for years, we don't need more workers. Especially those who break the law
and crowd in line to get here. Let's be honest, and set an example for our
children. Enforce the laws. Utah could be using E-verify and pulling business
licenses right now.
SLars | 5:15 a.m. asked, "Is this the Michael De Groote that is Director of
Communication and Marketing at Salt Lake Chamber of Commerce?"Marty Carpenter is the current director of communication and marketing at the
Salt Lake Chamber. I was in that position for seven years before I began working
at the Deseret News in 2008.
tom2 asks how many laws have each of us broken today, and then asks if any have
confessed those to the bishop...hmmm, what do you think would happen tom2?
Think the bishop would still give them a temple recommend if they confessed to
knowingly violating copyright laws, and then also admitted that they had no
intention of stopping, because they don't believe the law is just? No, my guess
is you wouldn't get that recommend. That is my main issue with this
article. Folks are being allowed to be completely dishonest in their daily
lives, even when they have no intention of stopping. The church has a nice
little lesson in the "Gospel Principles" manual entitled
"Honesty", wherein we are taught that "complete honesty is
necessary for salvation", but that only seems to apply to everyone except
There are more interesting aspects of this issue that I wish FAIR would address.
In particular the prophecies relating to the "Promised Land" and the
remnants of the House of Israel--and just why the church may not want to
disregard the needs of many of its members in South America. From a prophetic
sense, the Book of Mormon talks of a remnant of the house of Israel going about
the gentiles like a young lion among sheep. There are specific warnings to the
gentiles when they disregard Christ and abandon Him. I see many of these social
ailments making our country weak, and this remnant of the House of Israel coming
into our lands to "take" our jobs is only evidence of a people willing
to work harder than we are. But then my studies are not nearly as complete or
exhaustive as FAIR might do... it'd be interesting--at least from that
perspective to hear them discuss this angle of the issue as it relates to what's
happening to global populations and America (a promised land to the gentiles and
the remnant of Israel).
So when J.S. avoided prosecution from unjust laws, when the Mormons in Missouri
chose not to comply with the extermination order, when Christ chose not to
follow outdated Mosaic law (by healing on the Sabbath or even by not casting the
stone) were they ignoring the 12th article of faith. Should we condemn them in
the same fashion many here suggest by condeming those without status and
withholding baptismal and temple blessings. The overarching laws are to love
God and love thy neighbor. If you read the church policy closely it stops at
undocumented status. Those in undocumented status who are also violating other
substantial laws such as fraud would be subject to increased scrutiny. The
overarching theme is that the Gospel is open to everyone and we should be very
careful to judge personal motivations and worthiness. If a judge of Israel
declares a person worthy to enter the temple, who am I to declare that an entire
group should be disallowed. The simple words of "Follow the Prophet"
come to mind. Sound advice.
Good thing Mexico didn't kick us out in 1847.
When an undocumented individual goes for a temple recommend they can be
completely honest. You can tell your Bishop and Stake President that you are
undocumented and be perfectly honest about it and still receive a recommend. The
Church see being in an undocumented status in the U.S. just as our laws state
they are, it is a civil infraction comparable to speeding. I have family members
that are undocumented and I am breaking the law by having them in my home and
transporting them in my car. My Stake President is aware and I have a recommend.
What people do besides being undocumented may have an effect on their worthiness
but just being undocumented does not. These individules are some of the finest
Christians I know.
From a church standpoint I dont think people should feel guilty or wrong for
being here illegally. I don't feel like I'm spirtually deprived when I drive 80
in a 65 nor do I when I shoot off fire crackers in my back yard. Laws are laws
and commandments are commandments don't intertwine them. As great as america is
it is far from the god guided land it once was. Laws, taxes, and regulations
have become so overwhelming that it's almost impossible to not be doing
something wrong at any given time. The red tape involved is ridiculous.
Government needs to be simplified, make basic laws for everyone and enforce them
equally. I can't download a free app from iTunes without agreeing to 25 pages of
fine print, I can only imagine how hard it is to get legal documentation.
Just got home from London. Talked to hundreds of Londoners. The riots are being
perpetuated mostly by immigrants who have been sustained and supported through
entitlements. Now that the government is cutting those entitlements, the
immigrant population is revolting.Let them come legally, pay taxes
and assimilate. We are currently conditioning an entire generation of
immigrants that food, health care and housing is FREE in America.
If you don't like illegal immigration, don't scapegoat the desperate people
taking action to save their lives, work to change the socio-political climate
that attracts them: free healthcare, food stamps, housing assistance, minimum
wage laws, etc. If those welfare programs were abolished they wouldn't make the
herculean effort to come here for a "maybe".
To USALover and others: Really most of the illegal immigrants to this country
have jobs that most of the rest of won't do or take. They are farm laborers who
work at digging potatoes, picking fruit and vegetables, working in the meat
packing plants and other areas of minial labor. They work next to nothing,
lower than minimum wage and employers get by with it because they are illegal.
These people can't go to the labor department and complain or anything because
they would be deported. Some are drug dealers and murders but the majority are
not. My question when posed by and large most though that the ten were all
hispanic. Really, that in and of itself is racism. You are profiling people
which many people do. What would you do if you found out most were here because
their visas expired and they have no way to get home. Some of the illegals are
because they failed to renew their student visas.As far as I know no
one on this board is a Bishop/Branch President or Stake/District President.
Therefore, as a member of the LDS Church what gives you the right to judge them.
FredVader: Have you ever been to a temple recommend interview? I guarantee if
you told the Bishop that you were not perfect, he would take it as a obvious
attempt at levity. No one is perfect and if you think you have to obey the
speed limit to obtain a recommend, you don't understand the process. Often in interviews I have discussed some philosophical points like this. One
of the questions involves keeping the law of chastity. Christ said 'whosoever
looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in
his heart.' You ever had any dirty thoughts? I suppose by a strict reading of
the law, you would be unworthy to enter the temple - if perfection were
required. It is not. No one would ever be allowed to go to the temple if it
were.The sin of being an undocumented alien has been determined by
the approving authority to be as significant as the sin of speeding or of having
the occasional unworthy thought in regards to recommends.They have
asked that we consider compassion in our debate over immigration. Christ
repeatedly asked the same of us. Was He was wrong, too?
"Really most of the illegal immigrants to this country have jobs that most
of the rest of won't do or take. They are farm laborers who work at digging
potatoes, picking fruit and vegetables, working in the meat packing plants and
other areas of minial labor."Who picked the fruit before
large-scale illegal immigration began in the late sixties and seventies? Cesar Chavez was (most liberals don't know this) strongly against
illegal immigration -- even going so far as to tip off la migra that non-union
laborers were illegal workers. He understood that you can't possibly raise
wages for low-skill workers, when there's an endless supply of new low-skill
workers coming in from the south. There is no such thing as
"jobs Americans won't do" if the price is right. More precisely,
"if the price hasn't been lowered into the weeds by an oversupply of
My ancestors came to America without documentation. In some cases, the current
immigration laws were made to restrict access of such people (Mormons) to
America. While it is easy for me, an American Mormon, to say that I would
follow the 12th Article of Faith and refrain from entering another country
illegally, it is very hard for me to consider others to be hardened lawbreakers
because they have tried to come to a better place.The US process of
immigration makes it practically impossible for some to come to America. There
are requirements of liquidable assets or guaranteed income that are extremely
difficult for impoverished people to acquire. If my family were starving or
suffering from dangerous social unrest, I would not worry in the least about the
entrance laws of a safe haven; I would rather risk deportation than watching my
children starve or be killed by drug cartels.I personally know
hundreds, maybe thousands of illegal immigrants. Few of them fit the profiles
mentioned here of lazy, cynical people coming to America to live like parasites
off our plenty. The Latter-day Saints among them are all good people in a
My view and 50+years as a member of the LDS church; adulterer, fornicator, wife
beater, child abuser, porn addict, one who disregards speed and traffic laws,
petty thief, illegal emigrant who of these is more worthy of a Temple recommend
I think it's funny that some likened this issue to the Prop.8 issue. Many felt
that the Church's stand violated scriptural commands about people using their
religious beliefs to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others (D&C
134:4, 1 Cor. 10:29). gays DID have the right/liberty to marry in CA prior to
prop.8 hence many felt that infringing upon that right/liberty violated
scripture.Now people feel that the Church is violating it's own
scripture regarding the law in reference to immigration.Some people
could get the impression that the Church feels free to ignore scripture if doing
so promotes a theocratic vision that Church may have regarding how society
should be. Thoughts?
Why do some members place the 12th AOF above the Second great commandment?
My two cents, We are quick to judge "illegals" and if you look around
you find a lot of "legals" who are no better Christians or sometimes
even worse inside the church I won't mention the name or my comment won't be
published. "judge not"
DrGroovey:Loving ones neighbor need not include condoning their illegal
behavior. The 12th Article of Faith and love thy neighbor as thyself do not
countermand one another.
Given the resounding pro-12th AoF I'm reading about here in the comments, what
are we supposed to do about the 10th AoF? Can they both exist? I'm asking here,
Carminaburana:Perhaps they should be judging; judging themselves and
holding themselves to the self same standards. I think illegal is illegal;
be it immigration, taking something that does not belong to you, not giving back
the extra change that a casher mistakenly gave you, obeying traffic laws;
honesty is honesty.I know in my temple interview I was asked if I was
honest in my dealings at work. Hows that fit in with an unregistered worker?
When they come before God to be judged many of the Pharisees i have read here
will be told to depart from him ye worker of iniquity.When the
Savior and his Apostles broke the Sabbath to gather and eat a little grain the
Pharisees said: "Crucify Him."
My church is not going to tell me to support someone who is in this country
I love all the AofF quotes and scripture quotes about law and order and then
these are the same people that demean the Pres. and others in front of their
children show unflattering pictures tell jokes, etc.- so the parts of the AofF
and scriptures that apply to the lawas you like are all great but if the Pres.
or others comes from a party or whatever that you do not like then you can
demean and criticuize and even go as far as teach this in church classes as
someone did this last Sunday to my daughter but all of that is OK and it honors
and sustains our country- hypocrasy at its best
Kami,Your church is not telling you to support something illegal. The last
time I checked it is the church of jesus christ not the church of kami. You
still have your agency and can act in the manor you chose.
I'm always surprised about how many church members on these comments oppose the
stance their church takes on the issue. I might not agree with everything every
church leader has ever said, but I'm not going to call church leaders as a whole
"misguided" or "naive." With so many members disagreeing
with the church on this issue, I'm a bit surprised so many stay and complain and
so few actually leave.
Thank heavens there are reasonable people like Dr. Groovey and MormonDem. We
must put ourselves in the shoes of the illegals who come over. Most of them are
coming over to escape terrible conditions. Given the same situation, we would
probably attempt to come over illegally, too. Many people on the anti-illegal
immigration issue look at these people with hatred and view them as less than
people. We must remember there but the grace of God go I. Sometimes the laws
are not good laws: remember the extermination order in Missouri? Yes, we must
work to change the laws and uphold the law while treating people with dignity
and respect. Here are some ideas. First, control the border, that
is the most important issue. Then, give people a pathway towards citizenship,
there are illegals who are in the military or exemplary citizens, they should
have the chance to become citizens. If there are criminal records, they can be
deported. Crack down on businesses who exploit immigrants for cheap labor. We should agree with the compassionate stance of the church. We can
uphold the law and love our neighbors, too. Hatred, contention, and
divisiveness are of the devil.
Does being poor give the person the right to trespass, to steal, lie? Aren't
stealing and lying two of the Ten commandments? Will we allow America's poor the
same rights? Or are we making excuses to justify lawbreaking? Those
who defend the 12th article of faith fail to notice that the Church wants us to
follow the law, and people to immigrate legally, something the lawyer left out,
or was edited. Using lawyers that represent business in immigration for the
article seems like a very narrow view. The LDS Church is sitting on
the fence with this one. They lean to one side when calling for compassion to
the lawbreaker, but nothing to the victims. And asking that families stay
together is out of control of them and the government. That ultimately depends
on the actions of the family. We have over a million people each
year that come here legally. They are the honest, hard working people. We are dealing with an attempt to flood our labor markets and destroy our
standard of life. Will the Church remain on the fence?
@Wildcat Most of us don't hate the illegal alien, we resent their
illegal actions. Stealing, lying etc have kept many out of the temples, but when
they do it, it's OK? The double standard is difficult to look past.
So is the fact that the Churches statement talks about the 12 million here, and
our need for compassion to them, yet they supported HB 116 which dealt with
those here, and those to come. Plenty of poor come legally. We ask
all to come here legally, to wait their turn and not crowd in line. I see
nothing wrong with that. Many come from Mexico that have the 12th
best economy in the world, and who's wages rank in the top 50 in the world. Can
we honestly call them poor compared to the rest of the world. People
don't need to leave the Church if they disagree. Not sustaining the leadership
was devised for this purpose, and is to be used in situations like this.
Why are advocates for illegal immigrants so racist?Or do they
believe we should extend the same "hand of friendship" and the
accompanying benefits (free education, welfare, food stamps, wic, etc)to ALL the
worlds peoples?Is there a requirement somewhere that one must sneak across
the desert for the "freebies"?Is the offer open to my 20 million
Asian friends, 20 million African friends, 20 million Russian friends, etc.?Should we just keep asking American citizens to provide for WHOMEVER
manages to sneak in?Should we just wait until we too become a third
world country?Maybe then they won't be so interested in coming!
I wish I could say that I am surprised at the way many members of the church are
acting right now. Sadly though I am not. They don't seem to understand the whole
of the Church's position. In the which they call for the enforcement of current
immigration laws and the eventual change of the law seeing that they are
terrible. Not only that but these same members continue to judge their brothers,
which is also against Church counsel. My friends the issue of their status
according to God is not for you to decide nor judge on. For remember the counsel
of the Savior, "Judge not lest ye be judged likewise." Furthermore, the creation of borders and immigration laws are really
artificial ways of separating people from each other. Sure there are some
reasons to have clearly dfined borders. Mostly for the purpose of geoverning but
if people want to move why not allow them to through a decently regulated
process.Most any attorney who deals with immigration tells you the
system is broken and the courts and regulators are bogged down with the claims.
So I say why not make it easier for people to move?
@RichardB,I said many people look to immigrants with hatred. I am
not making a blanket statement and saying all or even most, but there is a
portion (considerable) that do have hatred towards immigrants.In my
suggestion, I said those that have criminal records (lying and stealing) would
be subject to deportation. I think there is a good portion of these immigrants
that are exemplary citizens. They serve in our military. They work jobs and
pay taxes. These people should have an opportunity to citizenship. Many of
them came here with their parents at a young age and through no fault of their
own are here illegally. I think more of the blame lies with employers that
exploit immigrants for cheap labor and directly hurt our citizens--primarily
immigrants who come in legally. These people then appeal to base emotions of
others to get themselves out of the spotlight. I agree with you about coming
here legally, but if we don't secure the border first--it's a moot point.I don't think their economy ranking matters to them, just their
situation. I support the first presidency--but members are free not to sustain
them, should they choose.
@Arm of OrionThe laws (1996) are not broken, they are just not being
enforced by the Federal government. They work for those willing to stand in
line. We can't take millions of people in each year, so lines are needed. They
do need to be distributed more fairly, as 36% of our green cards in the past 10
years have gone to Hispanics. They comprise only 7% of the worlds population. We
need to be more fair to Africa and Europe which are shortchanged. The Churches stand says that the Federal government has the right to control
it's borders. Let's not forget, God created the Nations after the Tower of
Babel.So many in and out of the Church look only at the illegal act
of immigration, and try to downplay how serious it is. They ignore the identity
theft, the loss of jobs and wages, and how it affects our families, the added
tax burden, and the impact on people around the world wanting to come here
legally. Illegal immigration is all of these things, and they must be included
in any discussion. Flooding the market with illegal labor should not
be condoned by anyone.
Today I had 2 trees cut down. The laborers were Hispanic and 3 of 4 did not
speak English. I worked along with them for about 2 hours (and I am quite fit)
and then I had to stop. I guess some here would say that white people would
take those jobs, but I don't believe it - not even at 3 times the wage.
@WildcatThey all have to lie and steal to work here. It's against the law
to work in the US if someone does not have a work visa or residency card (green
card). That's stealing and lying. So is stealing a social security number,
persons id, etc.@DaleCMy husband is "white" and has
a landscaping business that includes cutting down trees. He has been in business
for 20 years. If a person is in shape, any race can do it. It's the person, not
@JBrady,Do you think that children who followed their parents into
the country were knowingly breaking the law themselves? If you were in a
desparate situation, would you not break the law, i.e. Jean Valjean stealing a
loaf of bread when he was starving? I don't know about you, but I really can't
answer that question (I just hope I don't face that dire of circumstances that
some people do face), but we should try and understand the circumstances if we
are truly going to solve the problem. You have mentioned the
criminals (who should face deportation), but what of the immigrants who serve in
our military or work jobs and pay taxes? There are positive contributions that
are totatly disregarded, and there are jobs that are worked that would not be
worked by others.There are some legal citizens that are more of a
drain on society than some illegal immigrants. Is legal slothfulness better
than illegals who make a positive contribution? The point is there are millions
of immigrants here that we have to deal with, and we should do it in a dignified
and respectful way. It is a complex problem and requires a thorough solution.
Our immigration problem is a wonderful problem. Stand back and think for a
moment that Mexicans risk death walking through the deserts of our southwest,
Cubans risk death on rafts and orientals risk suffocation in containers. Do we
ever remember what a wonderful country we have that people are willing to risk
so much to be a part of it. Did you ever hear of anyone trying to sneak into
Russia or East Germany or Cuba, never. We build fences to keep people out and
they built fences to keep their people in. Let us not forget how blessed we
RichardB,Just as a point of clarification, Mexico does not have the
world's 12th best economy. Using per capita GDP estimates from the CIA World
Factbook - the US is #11 at $47,200 while Mexico is #85 at $13,900. Most
Central and South American Countries rank below Mexico (and illegal immigration
does not just stem from Mexico).If you do not wish to sustain the
prophet or other leaders over this, that is your right. But I lament your
choice. I do not think the Church's stance ignores the problem rather it tries
to inject a moral imperative into a political issue.Last year I had
the privilege of attending the Saints Unified Voices concert (with Gladys
Knight). I came away with the very strong impression that the Church is the
Lord's and that he and only he gets the right to say who should be invited in.
I don't ever want to be in the position of preventing someone from receiving the
gospel who the Lord has determined should receive it.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints always has and will obey, honor,
and sustain the laws of the land. But I'm glad that the church has made it's
intentions clear. The whole subject of FAIR is about love and respect. Try being
in the shoes of some of these immigrants. I regret admitting that I used to be
the typical anti-immigration, zenephobic until I went on a mission to South
Africa and saw that the same thing happening in the US happened there but with
people from Zimbabwe (a country terrorized by it's evil dictator) and I realized
that most Zimbabweans just like Mexicans or other Latino's just want to have a
better life and they are willing to work hard to do that. I have worked with
many and they are good people. Though I don't believe in illegal immigration,
it's a tough situation and we shouldn't be so quick to judge them. Try smiling
and saying OLA! :)
I have family members in other countries and have seen the plight of people
there. There are poor in every part of the globe. But Love and respect is a two
way street, following the law shows a love of your fellow man, and respect for
the country. Why do so many have a problem with asking people to wait their
turn? Some countries have short lines, some are long, but this country can only
accept so many each year. It's only fair when people stand in line and take
their turn. Are Gods laws for everyone, or just a few? I can't see
all the calls for compassion for those here illegally, while they ignore others
hurt by their actions. This to me is not the way of God. Jesus told us to
forgive, but the person breaking the rules should not continue doing it. Allow
them to go home and come back legally. I question the Church
ignoring their members who hire people illegally. That confuses me.
@wildcatChildren brought here have a program to help them get right.
Between 18 and 18.5 they can return home and come back legally on a student visa
or residency. They are moved to the front of the line. People here
illegally cannot legally serve in the military. And paying taxes does not excuse
criminals from paying for their crimes.@Twin LightsGDP shows
the income of a nation, GDP per capita shows what the person produces, not what
they earn. You need to search GDP of countries to show the countries worth. The
three ranking standards list Mexico at 13 or 14. US is one or two.
It says right in the Book of Mormon and the Bible in general to obey the laws of
the lands. For the church to stand up for them is hypocritical. Obviously this
is a tough subject and we should feel compassion for illegal immigrants. But the
truth is with them here our American Jobs are being taken away, why should it be
our American citizens struggling to survive? The Govermnent needs to resolve
this issue quick.
JBrady,GDP shows the income of a nation. GDP per capita does not
actually show either what a person produces or what they earn. If it measured
productivity, then the Qataris would be about 3.8 times more productive than we
are in the US. Per Capita GDP simply helps look at the gross income (GDP) of a
country vs. its population and is an indicator (though not a perfect one) of the
general standard of living.GDP vs. Per Capita GDP is sort of like
the difference between how much a single household earns (GDP) versus how many
people make up that household and the income per person (Per Capita GDP). You
and I may have the same income and live in the same community. If you have no
kids and I have seven, our standard of living (absent any other factors) is
@ Twin LightsA quick check of your point shows you as incorrect.
Gross domestic product refers to the market value of all final goods and
services produced in a country in a given period. This is the measure that is
used to determine a nations wealth, and Mexico is one of the wealthiest, highly
producing countries in the world. GDP per capita shows the gross
domestic product of countries per capita, i.e, the value of all final goods and
services produced within a country in a given year, divided by the average
population for the same year.It is not a measure of how wealthy a
country is. It takes all that is produced, and divides it by the population. It
is a measure of productivity per person, not income, or value of a nations
wealth. Mexico is a rich country, with food programs to feed the
SLarsThis is my last post.If we use GDP vs. Per Capita
GDP to measure the relative strength of an economy (that is, how its populace is
faring economically versus those of other countries) we get very odd results.Again using the CIA World Factbrook and excluding the European Union
(which is, of course, not a country) the US is #1 and Mexico is #11 just below
France and Italy and right above South Korea, Spain, and Canada. Does anyone
honestly believe that the average Mexican lives about the same as residents of
France, Italy, South Korea, Spain, and Canada? Of course not.The
same is holds true for China (#2) versus the US. Does anyone think that the
average Chinese citizen lives about as well as the average US citizen? I doubt
it.The issue is not simply the size of an economy but also the
countrys population. Only considering both data points can give us a
(relatively) accurate picture.The argument that Mexico is the 11th
largest economy simply addresses the wrong issue. The issue is how the average
Mexican is faring and he or she is not in 11th position in the world.
We are suppose to question.I am more afraid that this people have so much
confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God
whether they are led by Him. --Brigham Young, "Eternal Punishment,"
Journal of Discourses,Twin lights, what you are looking for is the
standard of living index, or Human Development Index. Mexico is ranked as a
"very high human development country". In the top 25% of all
countries. 75% of all countries in the world are worse off than them. With it's
strong economy it could do much better, if the people stayed home and fought for
their rights, instead of coming here and demanding citizenship.
Does this mean we can choose the laws we want to live. I would like to get SS
numbers for my two dogs and have them as dependents. Its identity thieft but
that is what an illegal has to do to work in the US. I speak spanish because of
a mission and work in a trade made up of illegals. They do take jobs and the
food off of Americans table. The problems is in Mexico and the solution is
there. The Church should try to change things there.
Back in November the Church supported the Utah Compact. "Immigration is a
federal policy issue between the U.S. government and other countriesnot Utah and
other countries."But along comes HB116 and they quickly change
to "The federal government's obligation to secure its borders." and
let Utah run it's own immigration system and make policy with other
countries?confused? Like it or not, the only way to be
fair is to force people to right the wrong that they may have done. It's their
responsibility to do this, not society. People cannot right their wrong by
having the laws changed. When we are told to stop sinning, and sin no more, do
we ask that the sin be changed? The only way for everyone to be
treated fairly is for us to force them to go home and come back legally. However
there is a roadblock, a 10 year block on citizenship and visas for being here
past one year illegally. We need to give them a 90 day window to return home,
without this punishment. They pay for their wrong, people in line
are served, and Americans can return to their jobs. It's not evil, it's fair.
This world is upside down now. It seems that in order to have any rights now
you have to be a criminal. I know plenty of people who are illegal that get
government assistance and plenty of Americans in need who can't. It's
disgusting. Illegal is illegal. I don't get how people can say
it's not right. The US made these laws and other countries have border laws too.
Why is America always getting a bad name for upholding its laws? Oh, and I'm not a racist. I'm brown and proud of it. My parents came here on
green cards and became naturalized Americans. If my parent's could do it the
right way; then others can too. And don't say...it's too expensive. My parents
lived check to check and some would consider our family poor by the standards of
wealth. They saved their money and living within their means.
tom2: The declaration was written so this country could be free. Those
illegals have no rights here
RRB: No one is restricted from visiting temple square. They are only removed
if they are causing problems. Thousands if not millions of people from all over
the world visit temple square a day.