The definition of a destructive religious cult is like alcoholism-if alcohol
controls you instead of the other way around you are an alcoholic.If they try to
ruin your reputation and break up your family for trying to get out then they
are a cult!Whenever you surrender your logic and reason to anyone
who asks you to trust them because they know better it's possibly a cult.If it
walks like a duck and quacks like a duck.... Danny former Jehovah's
Don't Mess With Texas!
Way to go Texas!
If they really want to protect society, particularly the victims, the families
of the victims and future victims, they should cut off all outside communication
with the world while he's in jail. Do not allow him the use of $1000's of
dollars worth of phone cards purchased by his followers. Do not allow him to
still direct the church from inside jail.
Well Danny, what you said is true of a lot of groups... not just
"cults".I am suspicious of any organization that tries to
tell people how to think and pushes their point of view as the only true way.
Those who have been following the trial of Warren Jeffs, will continue to watch
the State of Utah, Canada, and other places where men have unjustly ruled women
and young girls in the name of religion.Will our state of Utah now go
after those "other FLDS" accomplices? A monumental
In this day and age Brother Brigham and Joseph would be facing the same charges
At this point, these girls do not understand what a sick thing was happening to
them. I am glad that he is going away for life, I understand that he really
went out of control when his father died. I know first hand how his father
found ways to manipulate the system for medical reasons. But Warren manipulated
little girls and their parents, that is sick and wrong. I hope that they have
stopped this marriage with 12 year olds.
Justice has been rendered to Mr. Jeffs. Compensation for the innocent and all
the victims taken in by this behavior will have to wait until the next life, but
it will surely be meeted out, the, too. I just hope others learn from this
trajedy and change their behavior. It's too bad that principles can be so
twisted they become a asource of unspeakable evil.
I'm glad he got his just dues...it's about time. Too many confuse these so
called self proclaimed fundalmentalists with the true LDS society...which they
are not.Now then let's get back to football.
It is good to see justice happen. I was sexually assaulted by my biological
father yet he walks free.................
When I seen people like Jeffs that claim to speak for God, I always wonder if
they really believe they are a prophet, or if they are just pretending. It is
amazing the power that is available to a person if they can simply convince
their followers that a spiritual feeling trumps rational thought and logic.
We talk about how the kids and followers were brainwashed to participate in
these atrocities, but can't the same thing be said about Jeffs. Why aren't the
parents and other participants being prosecuted? Perhaps that is yet to come.
Justice can be had in Texas! Will Utah finally follow suit? They couldn't get it
right with Brian David Mitchell! The fed's had to clean up that mess. Hopefully
they take away his ability to lead his church from prison and hopefully the
parents of the victimized children are next.
In the photo, Jeffs looks like he was punched in the gut. may that feeling
remain with him as he spends the rest of his earthly life in prison, alone,
without his 78+ wives. Agree with giantfan. do not let Jeffs be a remote
prophet continuing to control those people from beyond the prison doors. Stop
his communication with them. else they will not be able to heal.
What will now happen to all the wives and children? Will the other 'old' men
continue to follow Jeffs leading? Who will oversee all that is left of this
I think the Jeffs got his just desserts! I completely agree with the verdict
and sentence. I do question whether the same amount of effort would
have been put forth if Jeffs had been a Muslim....
All ya'll are welcome. =)
Polygamy is NOT the path to heaven.In the civilized world it is the path
to prison.Time to round up all the dirty old men.
and God smiled...
Brigham Young was alleged to have said that the leaders of false religions know
that they are doing wrong. Jeffs said it all when he wrote in his
journal..."if people knew what I was doing, they would hang me from the
highest tree". or words similair. Now that TX has spoken when will AZ and
UT and Canada follow suit?
What evil lurks in the hearts and minds of men? Warren Jeffs, in the name of
his god committed heinous acts of molestation and sick sexual acts. He
blasphemed the name of God, telling his young victims that they were doing this
because God wanted them to. What about the mothers of these young children?
Didn't they have a clue that something was wrong with his actions? These people are brain-washed and have been for generations. I don't know
what it would take to make them see that the acts they have done are a
perversion of even the laws of polygamy of the Old Testament.Jeffs
may be in jail, but he will be in charge of the FLDS and will control them
through whatever means possible from prison just as he has been doing. He needs
to be cut off from any communication with the outside world.
A CommontaterGood point. Mitchell's singing intimidated a female
judge who didn't quite know how to handle the situation. I'd have told his
attorney's "Either you get your client to be quiet or I will order a shave
and haircut and if that doesn't work, you will be in court without him, but the
trial will go on." (For those who would scream that his "rights"
had been violated by a court-ordered shave and haircut, I'd point out that no
harm was done as his hair, in time, would grow back.)Jeffs, in the
name of "persecution" has held the Utah authorities at bay for
decades. Now let's see if they suddenly get a jolt of courage to persue justice
for the victims in this state.
Can't we just export all our criminal cases to have them tried in Texas? They
know how to get things done.
And now he gets to meet is new cellmates! I have heard of what these guys to to
child molesters! Justice is a wonderful thing!
"The jury deliberated less than half an hour."That's a
nanosecond in jury time. That's barely long enough to take roll call and a first
vote. I love it!
This should assure that other polygamists will stop involving children in the
practice. But the brainwashing continues within these groups and I am afraid a
23 year old woman who has known nothing except what has been repeated to her
since a child has just as little actual free will as the 12 year olds who were
abused by Jeffs. I actually wonder how much free will Jeffs actually
had? How much free will does someone have no matter their age if they grow up in
a society that repeatedly teaches one and only one truth while tying it to God
and salvation and excluding any contradictory information? Even if
what we teach our children does not encourage abuse and violence, what
responsibility do we have as parents to provide alternative points of view and
encourage study and exploration? Obviously LDS parents believe that
the Church makes our children better people and provides a path to exhaltation.
But when we also emphasize free agency, do we have a responsibility to provide
alternative viewpoints? Is it really free agency when we engrain in
our children daily and in multiple ways that the ONLY path to exhaltation is
Next up, Merril Jessop.
Thanks you Texas!The polygs. have made a mockery of Utah law
enforcement for decades. Now if Utah would only prosecute some of the
"moms" (I use the term loosely).Weren't the
"moms" also complicit?
Idaho Coug? Your last sentence kind of concerned me. Do you want your children
to have the "free agency" of trying out drugs so that they've got
"alternative viewpoints" to what drugs can do for them so you don't
engrain in them the need to stay away from them? You seem to misunderstand that
teaching truth is the only way that kids can understand for themselves what is
right and wrong. That's why it's imperative that the truth, and absolute truth,
is being taught. With religion this is a little harder to objectively
"prove". Since you can't effenctively even "prove" that God
exists, is there no reason to try and teach them from an early age that God
exists and is even there? I would hope that you don't withold too much from them
at an early age in the worry that you aren't providing them alternative
viewpoints because you can trust me that society will do that for you as they
get older. The only hope you can have is that you've taught them well enough
that they don't let go of what really is "true" for a more attractive
I applaud all of your comments and glad to see where each of you stand on the
issue of Child molestation. Warren Jeffs took underage brides, in the name of
God, and did what he wanted with them. His acts are deplorable! It's funny how
history has somewhat repeated itself. Although Joseph Smith was never prosecuted
for marrying and having relations with teenage girls, it is documented that it
happened. He set a very ugly precedent that Warren Jeffs used to his
advantage. I have confidence in the fact that the commenters on this board
probably feel the same way about Josephs acts as Warren Jeffs. This you should
be commended for.
Now they need to DNA test every child in this group and figure out how old their
birth mother was at the time of delivery and if she was below the legal marriage
age they need to prosecute every one of the biological fathers. This needs to
I afraid it will take alot more than one man's incarceration to stop the
perpetual cycle of multi-wife patriarchal incestuous inbreeding practiced for
decades on the polygamy ranches from Chihuahua to British Columbia. I don't
know that any government agency has the funding or legal authority to dismantle
this web of heinous atrocities being committed in the name of religion.
"tot mom" goes free.Thank goodness Jeffs was not tried in
Hey "Full Disclosure", where are you getting your information?
"It is documented?" Where? He did participate in polygamy, yes, but
the times and curcumstances are so far removed when compasring the two cases.
It was not against the laws of man when Joseph taught this practice. As soon as
the laws changed, the Church changed it's practice and those that could not
accept it were no longer in good standing. And how do you know how the
commentators on the board feel about Joseph Smith? Speak for yourself and get
your facts straight please. I think I just might change my handle from
"InsideView" to "Porter Rockwell".
It appears there is nothing Mormon about this guy, not even fundamentalist,
seems he has been pressed into service by a very experienced con man.
To: Idaho CougI hate to break it to you but there is no such thing
as "free agency." While we do have freedom to make choices. They are
not free. When parents allow their children to have free run at life because
they think they are entitled to "free agency" then the morals of
family completely disappear.Parents have a responsibility to teach
what is right and what is wrong. I mean both, not just what is right (truth),
or, not just what is wrong (false). They also must teach the blessings/reward
for doing that which is right and the consequences of doing that which is wrong,
AND, hold them accountable for their decision/s. Without this
teaching/understanding they cannot exercise agency to choose.For
example it doesn't matter if someone believes that the sun raises in the west
and sets in the east. They are absolutely wrong. Any father or
mother that would teach their 12 year old child that a 50+ year old man should
have sex him is just plain wrong. I don't care what part of the world you are
from or what religion you claim to believe.
@Idaho CougA large percentage of LDS boys don't go on missions.
Large percentages don't go to BYU, or get married in the temple, or remain
active after age 18. Many choose to leave the church. We don't throw them out
of our families for making these choices. We continue to love them, pray for
them, and be there for them whether or not we like their choices.We
teach them as well as we can while they are young, but it's their choice and
their decision. Most of our kids go to public schools, watch TV, have internet
access, etc. They have plenty of opportunities for hearing other viewpoints.
Just look at the number of former LDS who comment on these boards!
Idaho Coug: Just what alternative viewpoints do you suggest? Should we teach
our children, for instance that premarital sex is against the laws of God, but
they can have a choice to do it if they please? It's a popular thing to do in
this day and age. Now, wouldnt that be destructive? LDS children
have to make choices. No one can force them to do right or wrong; they always
have choices. Please don't compare regular LDS kids or parents to the FLDS
community. LDS parents teach what they think is best for their children. But
it is for the children to choose what they want to do, not what their parents
want them to. The LDS live in the outside world, all over the world
and they make everyday choices. Because they live in the outside world, they
find out about alternative choices soon enough. Because they have free will,
they can, and do choose. The FLDS are brought up in a close, controlled
community. They barely have contact with the outside world. They cannot have
free will. They cannot make choices.
Israel allows the Yemenite Jews (they originated in Yemen) to continue to
Thanks be to God, this evil man has been stopped, and I pray he will never see
freedom again. I believe that all leaders/parents found guilty should be called
to justice and the victims be given the services they need to pursue a better
life. I am terribly saddened by how much this case and other like it
(concerning the FLDS faith) will smear the reputation and goodness of the The
Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We are good people, with good
hearts. No one forces us to follow our leaders, we choose to follow, not just
because they are good and righteous men, but because they are true prophets of
God and represent our Savior Jesus Christ. Please do not allow these
wicked men to color your perceptions of the LDS faith.
Why didn't Utah do this? From what I heard on KSL Television Utah authorities
knew as much or more knew as much or more about him years ago. Also, why doesn't
Utah go aggressively after all the rest of the polygamist child abusers still in
their jurisdiction? Perhaps we have to look to see what campaign contributions
have been made by FLDS members to our elected officials at the state, county,
and local levels. It's nice to have a judge, prosecutor, and law enforcement
official in one's back pocket.
It takes a lot of chutzpah for a man who thinks that the whole world should
conform itself to his narcissistic whims to refer to himself as a "Humble
Let the judgments of (Warren Jeffs') heaven begin. Excuse me, I need to go wash
my hair.It never ceases to amaze me what some men will do in the
name of religion, and even more amazing is that many people, who know better,
will simply follow along out of fear or greed, even at the cost of the innocence
and safety of the very youngest of their (and God's) children.I hope
and pray that others will wake up and stop this abuse of children.
As for the comments from @fulldisclosure, he is mistaken about Joseph Smith
having relations with underage girls. Had several wives yes. Relations yes with
only a few some of them and not underage. Many were just marriages and sealings
on paper only and processed through in the temple. If one researches this in the
right areas, you'll find it was done for the right reasons. Joseph Smith at
first did not want to do it because he knew what people would do judging him and
the church on this and wasn't comfortable about it. This was all new and hard
to take in. But eventually he was told by God he had to do this or else be
removed as a prophet. The revelation was given I think in 1832, but polygamy not
practiced until around 1842 and only a select few were called to practice it and
they did with honor until 1890 when Federal Law prohibited it. No comparison to
Jeffs actions at all. As a thought, I surmise the day will come in the future
when the anti-polygamy law will be removed to allow polygamy for religious
purposes, but not allow underage marriages.
Utah doesn't have the same laws written as Texas does. That's why Texas was able
to go to the max in prosecuting Jeffs. The right laws in any state is the key
to proper prosecution for something like this.
@ Gary: Mormon historians believe that Joseph Smith did have full marital
relations with 14 year old Helen Mar Kimball. (see In Sacred Loneliness,
available through Deseret Book along with Helen's journal.)If he
did't, then how is he justified? In Mormon scripture, polygamy is commanded by
God, at times, for the raising up of a righteous seed.God does not,
in any of His very specific revelations on polygamy solely justify the practice
for the caring of women, the spiritual sealing to husbands, or any other reason.
In fact, he goes into great detail to explain why polygamous men are not
committing adultery in His eyes.Also, you have it backwards, Joseph
began practicing polygamy between 1833-35 with his first wife, 16 year old Fanny
Alger. The revelation was not recorded in the Doctorine and Covenants until
1843. There were many more polygamous marriages performed after the
Manifesto was given, you can see for yourself on the church's family history
website. Everything I have written is factual and verifiable.I am glad Jeffs was convicted, but I wish polygamy was never taught as a
religious principal because so many have suffered from the teaching.
Gary, then we ought to look as to why we don't have the same laws as Texas to
protect our children. Has FLDS money bought our legislature?
This man never had a jury of his peers. Why weren't any of the FLDS on the
jury? Evidence against him was illegally obtained. DNA evidence can be
contrived especially when the government's doing the contriving. I hope his
sentence is overturned on appeal.
What does it say about a State whose lawmakers are predominately LDS, they know
they have a huge polygamy problem in the State, yet they pass absolutely no
legislation to make it easier to prosecute these people? What is going on here
Re: Bob BruceIf Jeffs is not guilty of what he was accused, then no
one in the history of this world had even been guility of anything. The LEGALLY
obtained evidence is overwhelming. The guy recorded everything he ever did! As
far as his competency is concerned, he obviously knew what he was doing was
against the law since he stated in his own journal that "they'd hang me
from the highest tree". Sorry, open and shut case. May he enjoy
his time in prison.
To add to what I said earlier - I guess I am simply wondering
whether there is a different impact (and whether as parents we should care) on a
developing mind of a child between normal education and information obtained in
school or reading a book and the way we teach our children about our religious
convictions?If a child reads something in a book and then hears
something a bit different on t.v. or from a friend, I would assume it rather
easy for them to use their reason and logic to decide what they actually
believe. But how different is that from the way we teach or engrain our
religious beliefs? Children in active LDS homes repeatedly hear
emotional testimonies, lessons, prayers and blessings that testify that the
teachings found in the LDS Church are true and provide the (often only) path
back to God. And most LDS parents want that belief to become a conviction for
their children too. We really do indoctrinate (I can't think of another word)
our children in the way we believe. Maybe that is exactly what we
should be doing. It has simply made me wonder how that impacts free will.
Hey Insiders View aka Porter Rockwell:It is documented so my facts
are straight. You might want to check out "Mint Julip's" comment on
page three concerning historical accuracy. There are several books by LDS
authors and non-LDS authors alike. Journal of Discourses and History of the
church if you would like to stick to the church as your source of information.
You might also wiki. I did get the Porter Rockwell reference. It made me
laugh out loud, but more important, made me think how it made it past the
Deseret News message board review committee. To that i give you a "thumbs
It remains that Jeffs never had a jury of his peers convict him as guaranteed by
the constitution. When being tried by your peers the law is on trial as much as
the person. This gives the ultimate power to the people and not the state.
Injustice was served today.
@ Idaho Coug: There are other comments above which make many of the points
regarding agency that I concur with.I think it would irresponsible
as parents NOT to teach children to be honest, hard-working, kind and unselfish.
It would be irresponsible to not let them know that I believe they have Heavenly
Parents who love them and answer their prayers. They have their whole lives to
decided if they agree, but at least they have been introduced to the concept. I
have 4 grown children; we taught them all the same things growing up in the
Mormon church; 2 have accepted those teachings as adults and 2 have not. They
are all honest, kind, trustworthy, and loving adults regardless of their
religious affiliations. I can't say for sure, but I believe raising in a
faith-filled home helped not hindered their development. I don't think teaching
them that telling lies, stealing, and cheating and having premarital sex would
have made them better people all in the name of not 'brainwashing' them. I
always allowed my kids to visit other churches with their friends if they wanted
to; faith is useless if it doesn't hold up to scrutinty.
Bob Bruce: This man never had a jury of his peers. Why weren't any of the FLDS
on the jury? Evidence against him was illegally obtained. Jeffs is better of
than JS . A newspaper article in the spring of 1844. A very strong
and bitter feeling was aroused against Joseph, among many of his brethren [
,probably Mormons in the Masonic lodge] in and around NauvooJoseph had recently
presented the revelation of Celestial Marriage to the high council for approval,
and certain members were bitterly opposed to itFrancis Higbe a justice of the
peace, sat a table in one end of the room and administered the oath to each
individual separately, in the following manner, The candidate would step forward
to the table; take up a Bible.. Raise his right handYou solemnly swear ,before
God and all holy angels, and these your brethren by whom you are surrounded,
that you will give your life, your liberty, your influence, your all, for the
destruction of Joseph Smith and his party! The person being sworn in say, I do.
About 200 hundred persons [took] the oath. (Millennial Star, Vol.46 pp
497,499,501,502 and 519)
Hey Bob Bruce?Just wondering which planet you live on?You might be a
bit out of place here.
This case does not have anything to do with The Mormon Religion. It has to do
with a pervert having a serious power trip and using his power on helpless
children. As for everyone fighting regarding who is right & who knows more
about this & that religion .. STOP!Wake up call .. NONE OF US KNOW! What is
the point of arguing about it? No one has a better "GOD". No ones
"GOD" should be telling you that you are right and they are wrong.
KARMA people, treat others how you wanted be treated & let your neighbor
believe in whatever faith they choose. Lets all be happy (TOGETHER) there
is one less sicko on the streets eyeing our children. AMEN to that!
Keep going after the pedophiles or else someone else from the FLDS cult will
fill the vacuum of leadership created by Jeff's life sentence. Nothing will
change unless the law keeps going after the criminals that are blatantly having
sex with children in the FLDS community.
Good. May he never come out of prison.
To: Bob Bruce | 1:29 p.m. Aug. 9, 2011Stamford, CT Saddam
Hussein and Osama Bin Laden didn't have a jury of their peers either. They are
still just as dead. To some it may not have been politically correct but the
right thing happened to them and the right thing happened to Warren Jeffs.And, if I get my head all messed up like any of them I should expect the
same thing to happen to me.There is a lot "sense" in the
world today but there seems to be very little of it that is
"common."Also, for all of those out there that are trying
to lynch others in different centuries for practicing polygamy, give it up,
already. Laws were changed and those who chose to uphold the laws also changed.
Those who didn't choose to uphold the laws of the land should suffer as a
result.I can tell you that the general authorities of The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are very concerned about polygamist families
because they don't want families broken up, however, they don't condone either
their continuing practices of polygamy or any sexual abuse.
The comparison of Warren Jeffs to Brigham Young is sickening. Warren Jeffs
engaged in marrying underaged feamles, a charge never leveled against Brigham
Young especially if we accept the truth that people are only underaged when
there is a law that makes them so.Also Warren Jeffs command style
method of mandating who marries who is a far cry from the way polygamy was
practiced among Mormons in the 19th century.The problems with
presentist judging of past people are so deep and complexed that attempts to
compare Warren Jeffs to anyone else are just stupid. The reason
that Utah, Arizona and other such states are not dragging polygamist off to jail
in droves are two fold. First they respect the 4th admendment in ways Texas
does not and secondly they did exactly this from about 1930 until 1955, yet it
did not end polygamy. Dragging people off and making martyrs out of them is not
the way to change behavior. This was learned 60 years ago by those who
orchestrated the Short Creek Riad.
Brainwashing is by and large a false theory. Definantly the claim that any
other adult involved with Jeffs was not at fault is just hogwash. If Jeffs
deserves to go to jail, than they need to prosecute the parents of his victims
who were willing colaborators, and probably in many cases openly encoraged him
to take their daughters as "wives".
What bothers me about this is why Utah did not convict this man. Utahn's have
know for decades what was happening and is still happening in this state and
they do nothing to convict these men. I have worked for school districts and
have known personally of children living under polygamous families and nothing
is done on a state level to deal with this at all. For whatever reason Utah
turns a blind eye on these relationships, it is still against the law of the
land and we should be foremost in convicting those who engage in this
destructive practice. Just for the protection of the children alone should be
justification to rid our society of this terrible practice.
For those of you who are trying to compare Wararen Jeffs to Joseph Smith,
Brigham Young, John Taylor and others need to quit trying to put how the Church
of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints practiced polygamy to how Jeffs practiced
it.First off it was not illegal for a man to marry a 14, 15 or 16
year old in the 1800s. To put todays morality into effect is beyond anyone
comprehension. It isn't the same. Some will say well it is better today.
Really, then why so many children borne out of wedlock. Even today in some
cultures it is not wrong to marry at ages 14, 15 and 16 years old. You need to
understand what was going on in the 1840s and the way marriage was looked at to
understand why and how polygamy was practiced. Failure to do so and you are
being completely naive of the practice then and today.Second, a man
had to be called to have an additional wife. You didn't just get to join a man
and a woman together, it had to be approved by Priesthood Authority. Also, the
way it was practiced is different from Jeffs.
Contrary to what some posters imply Jeffs has been convicted by the state of
Utah. There is a reason his group decided to relocate to Texas, it is because
the pressure was building in Utah. There is a reason they are still in Texas,
it is because the heavy-handed methods of the raid can be lived with much easier
than the coordinated efforts of Utah's current AG.
Mint Julip, Two points. 1- There is 0 evidence that Joseph Smith had
sexual relations with Helen Mar Kimball. The best reflection on this issue
would be to read "Rough Stone Rolling" and also Thomas G. Alexander's
biography of Wilford Woodruff in which he considers real evidence to come to
conclusions on this issue. 2-It does not matter if Joseph Smith had
sexual relations with Helen Mar Kimball from a legal point of view because in
the 1840s the common law age of consent was 12. You are trying to pin illegal
activity on Joseph Smith for something that would not have been illegal at the
time. This is totally wrong. It is not statutory rape if there is no statue
making it so.
Full disclosure-Do you have video of the above accusations against
Joseph, or just heresay evidence. Were those women, or any women forced to
marry any of the early leaders of the church. Can you prove with DNA evidence
Joseph had any childeren with any of these women. And in the 1830's what was
the mean marrying age?You are comparing apples and oranges.I am not denying that Joseph didn't practicing polygamy and that he probably
may have consumated all of his marriages. I do deny that any of these marriages
were forced, that he practiced group sex or that he had any offspring with
plural marriage. There has not been any evidence of any of this.
Finally some justice.
I don't have a full appreciation of the Short Creek Raid, 60 years or so ago,
but the law is the law, and the last time I looked, the 4th Amendment, did not
protect criminals. The law is the law and those practicising polygamy are
breaking the law. In short they are criminals.
To those who say there is no good that comes from religion, I quote President
Monson."In addition to helping members of the church through
our welfare program, we also sponsor humanitarian relief and developmental
projects around the world to help those in need, regardless of their faith. From
1985 through the end of 2010, the church has provided, through its Humanitarian
Aid fund, essential help to the needy in 178 countries and territories. With
these funds, which have been generously donated by its members and which number
in the millions of dollars, the church provides essential help to people in
times of natural disasters, famine, sickness and events that can strike anyone,
anywhere. Clothing and shoes are provided to those who are without. Quilts and
blankets bring warmth to those who are cold. Kits are filled to meet the needs
of newborn babies and their mothers. Bags are filled with supplies for school
children. Hygiene kits help to maintain cleanliness and health in emergency
situations. Whenever and wherever a disaster occurs, the LDS Church is among the
first to respond with emergency relief.Part II coming
So many of you just don't get it...Jeffs didn't get locked up for
polygamy. HE WENT TO JAIL FOR CHILD ABUSE!!!!Like it or not,
consenting ADULTS can do pretty much whatever they want. They can have as many
wives/sister-wives as they like so long as only one pair is legally married.
They can "spiritually marry" whomever they'd like.Children
can not legally consent.
Sorry @Jim,Polygamy is only illegal if people try and LEGALLY marry
more than one other person. Modern polygamists marry only one other person
legally and the rest are "spiritual marriages." Nothing illegal there.
The illegality comes into play if the weddings are to minors and
rape/molestation takes place.
El Mano...thanks mate for the update..much appreciated
I agree with many commenting here that it is absolutely correct and responsible
to teach our children good moral principles. I am referring more to our
indoctrination of religious ideas - JS, BofM, LDS only true Church, etc. And yet someone made a very good point that despite all the teaching and
repetition done in LDS homes, less than half the males serve missions and
probably only 1/3 of the 14 million announced members are actually active. So it
seems clear that LDS are making their own free decisions and the majority are
actually not remaining active.
@Bob Bruce:Being tried by a jury of your peers does not mean being
tried by a jury of like-minded people. These are two different things.Jeffs was tried by a jury of his peers. Fellow Americans.No other
group of individuals is given the right to be tried with that group specifically
represented in their jury. Whether it's a religious affilitation, white
supremacist, homosexual, animal rights activist or whatever.
@MintThanks for the info and where it came from. All people need is
to know the truths and what the reasons were and why and to know that none of it
was illegal and was done properly during Joseph Smith's time. There is no
comparison to Jeffs in what he was doing in Utah and Texas. In what Jeffs was
doing, I don't think the attitude Jeffs had has ever been approved at any time
by any prophets since Adam and Eve.
@ John Pack Lambert:I haven't read Bushman's take on Helen Mar, so I
can't speak to that. However I have read her journal and I agree with Compton's
assessment. However, if Joseph wasn't having sexual relations with her, why was
he married to her? We are told the command of polygamy is for the Lord to raise
up a righteous seed.Secondly, I said nothing of whether Joseph's
actions were legal or not. I personally believe that just because something is
legal does not mean it is right.
@Idaho Coug,To be honest, I don't really see the big deal behind
"JS, BofM, LDS only true Church, etc." I didn't grow up LDS. I grew
up in another religious tradition that was viewed as the only really correct way
to believe in and worship God. I approached religion the same way I approached
mathematics and grammar - there is only one right way to do it. 2 + 2 = 4,
there is no gray area in spelling and punctuation if you are actually literate
and correct, etc. Unlike my friends growing up, who liked to say that
"what is true for you isn't true for me, and what is true for me might not
be true for you," I didn't buy into moral relativism. Just like 6 / 3 is
always going to = 2, truth is absolute. So when I learned about Joseph Smith
and read the Book of Mormon, I asked God what his opinion on the matter was and
followed what He told me to do. I don't see what argument is, when truth comes
from its Creator. Either accept it or don't, but the consequences will always
why do i get the unusual sense that his actions were like a buck deer with a
harem of compliant does? the does are 'taken' at the first sign of ovulation
readiness and brought to bear offspring within a controlled and defended covey
of mindless obedience. all competing males are beaten or killed to maintain his
singular DNA strand within the offspring. almost akin to having
daughter/father/cousin inbreeding as time went on. it's not very healthy for
the future breed-stock in any event.
"It is not statutory rape if there is no statue making it so."Not everything that is "WRONG" is technically illegal.
Re: Kami | 1:43 p.m. Aug. 9, 2011 Jeffs wasn't convicted of
committing polygamy. He was convicted and sentenced for sexually assaulting two
Interesting thing I see in the debate of plural marriage, is that the left is
willing to use it as a means to attack the Restored Gospel, by attributing as a
evil that is still practiced by the Church. But when it comes to islamic
practice of ploygamy, we are told that this different as we must accept this as
it is "their culture" founded, I might add, by a pedophile who married
a 8 year-old girl. Jeffs is a sicko but i know of no allegations that he
married any pre-pubescent girl as did Muhammad of mecca.
This person is still a religious leader to thousands in Utah.
I support prop08 and other constitutions which discourage polygamy, child
marriages (one WOMAN one man), and other harmful marriages. I wish
we would pursue other sexual predators, pedophiles, and seducing pressuring
deviants with such vigor. However, I don't feel that consenting
adult polygamists all fall into the same category (with pedophiles etc), and it
would be a mistake for us to pass judgement and lump all of them in with Jeffs.
It's also wrong to promote hatred towards LDS and other religions because of
people like Jeffs.I met some FLDS female missionaries years ago.
They were bold, independent, and were thinking just as freely as many of today's
misinformed college students. One woman said she chose not to be a
polygamist but believed in it as a principle, the other said she wanted to be a
polygamist. I don't believe we have a right to arrest her for that, but I don't
think we should show our support by legally condoning polygamy etc through
marriage. The idea that all polygamist women were oppressed, blind
fanatics is prejudice. Polygamist women were some of Americas first
female Doctors, Lawyers, voters, etc. Things weren't always as they are. Stop the hating : )
I am glad that Jeffs is locked up for life. Brainwashing is nothing more then
learned behavior and learned behavior can be unlearned.You make sure
that the remaining members are not breaking any sex laws. Federal and State Law
Trumps Religion and i would not want it any other way. What allows
me freedom of Religion, allows you and me Freedom FRom It. A person
might say because your Grandfather was a such and such in whereever land, You
are also such and such and subject to the same laws, well in America you aqre
NOT.Some people think Free Will is fine as long as they like the way
things go. Others of US believe that Free Will is somthing God gave us and we
have both the Freedom To and the Freedom Not To. This is what makes some LDS
both label and go nuts in the Demographics. Active, Less Active, In Active,
Jack, Jill or Molly. Jeffs people did not have free will and still
do not have free will.To leave, you have to have somewhere to go,
Job skills, education etc. DI could be of great help in this matter.