Bribery is defined in the U.S. constitution as a high-crime.When
lobbyists give elected representatives "gifts", I see no
distinguishable difference between this and bribery.According to
this, which is something I do believe- our current lobbyist/political system
supports what our highest law deems a high-crime, even a treasonous one.---This man saying that many people betray this country is
wrong, but only because of his premise. Support of a bill, just because it's one
you disagree with, does not equate to treason. - But, while so many in this
country accept things that our constitution strictly forbids... I'm not exactly
saying that everyone is innocent or exempt from this title either.
John Walker Lindh was fighting alongside the Taliban BEFORE the US went to war
there. He should be thought of more as a mercenary than "high
treason". He shouldn't have been listed in your group as his actions came
nowhere near those of the others - and he held no high post or office to make
his actions fall into that category.This is a lot like calling
Utah's legislators "traitors" actually. Somewhat over the top.
I was deeply offended when treason was asserted. Enough of this kind of talk.
Again, it is this kind of rhetoric and bullying that led to the imposition of
totalitarianism in pre-World War II Germany, and it has no place here.
So, attacking and marginalizing Mr. Beckham -- suggesting his position is flawed
because he is in opposition to Church leaders -- is part of your new
Its comments from politicians like this, that make everything they say a bunch
of hot air. I don't trust a word coming out of their mouths.
Esquire.It was the corrupt politicans and people not having the guts
to acknowledge their misdeeds or do anything about them that led to
totalitarianism in Germany. The Government knew they could get away with it so
it just led them to committ even more treason. The same thing is being done here
in America. But people don't have the guts to fight it and that is why we will
become a totalitarian dictatorship becase we are letting them kill our dollar
and our economy. We are letting them engage in unconstituional wars in the
middle east so they can steal oil in the name of protecting our liberties which
is a joke.
Demonizing your political opponents is indication that you have a weak argument,
or are insecure in your ability to defend it. Brandon Beckham: shame.
Procura: The DNews did not attack and marginalize Mr. Beckham. My gosh why is it
with so many of our posters here that if a person disagrees with someone (as the
DNews is doing) that others call it an attack and a marginalization? This was a
well thought out and written editorial. I disagree more often than not with the
DNews and their editorials but to say that they attack and marginalize is really
a bit too much. I do enjoy reading your posts and hope that you continue but you
might want to reconsider your last post.
While the word "traitor" may have been a little over-the-top, I'm not
sure there's a word that would more adequately describe individuals who are
willing to allow amnesty to individuals who did and are entering this country
illegally everyday. Illegal immigrants don't care a lick about our country as a
whole. All they care about is our money. They leech off of our healthcare
system, they don't pay a full and fair income tax, and cost our country
millions, maybe billions, of dollars every year in lost revenue. Their true
allegiance isn't to this beautiful country and all it represents. They want our
money. Thats it. So please, all you bleeding-heart liberals who are ready to
make them honorary citizens simply because they've lived in our country for
years and years without being caught, don't mistake them for the honest,
law-abiding immmigrants who are trying to go about LEGALLY obtaining citizenship
to this wonderful country. Those people WANT to be a part of this country. The
illegals don't. They don't want to pledge allegiance to our flag and all it
represents. They want our money and anything else they can take at our expense.
"A general dissolution of principles and manners will more surely overthrow
the liberties of America than the whole force of the common enemy."
--Samuel Adams Having said that I can only sigh after reading comments like
those of Pete. Does the fact I don't agree with you make me a "bleeding
heart liberal"? How do you know where a persons loyalty and heart lies,
Pete? What makes you so sure that they want our money and anything else they can
take at our expense? What have you done for your country?
The "poll" that is referred to here, (that was commissioned and pd.
for by the illegal immigrant lobby)I think pretty much everyone understands is
bogus.Whether you agree of disagree with the word
"traitor" makes no difference regarding the legal status of those who
violate our borders.We also understand that our legislative Senate
leadership previously has determined that their friendship with the "movers
and shakers" in SLC is of paramount importance to them.NOT the
legal Utah residents.Thats why we have the petition drive.Our leaders AREN'T LISTENING!
An editorial from the respected DNews that favors speech control, "This
type of hyperbolic, inflammatory rhetoric is a poor substitute for good argument
and should not have a place in Utah's or America's democratic process." I
shudder when the free press give utterance to controlling speech. My mind
reflects on other societies past and present that have such "social
guardians" of speech. Beware the suggestion as rapidly it moves from
speech to print and thought. Imperfect expressions are unfortunate, the
restriction of such are tragic, and to call for such shameful.
Re: "The DNews did not attack and marginalize Mr. Beckham."Maybe you read a different article -- the one I read says:"This type of hyperbolic, inflammatory rhetoric is a poor substitute for
good argument and should not have a place in Utah . . . ."and"Beckham's remark also highlights . . . the rise of
incivility in America, fueled by the Internet and by radio and TV personalities
who have discovered that extreme rhetoric and character assassination are
effective . . . ."and"A wide variety of
business, community and religious groups, including . . . The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints, supported these legislative reforms."Note that the DNews editorial mentions, not once, Mr. Beckham's message. It
merely attacks the messenger as uncivil and in opposition to the brethren --
neither of which is fair or true.This whole "civility"
movement is nothing more than a continuation of the radical liberal scam to
divert attention from the merits of the issues, which liberals know is their
weak point -- they invariably lose on the issues.
Fitness Freak:I disagree with your comment that our leaders are not
listening. Did you not read the column where it stated that a majority of Utahns
supported the assortment of bills called the Utah Compact. I for one have asked
several of my neighbors, co-workers and family members about their opinion on
the Compact. Slightly more than half supported what our legislature did. It
shows to me that the legislature did listen to their constituents and not to a
few loud, over-zealous folks, like yourself. So, please calm down with your
shouting comments and in the futre, please offer sound reasonable arguments that
are backed up by facts and not single opinions. Our leaders are listening, and
they are trying to work through a very difficult issue.
In making this charge, Beckham was inviting physical harm upon those he accused.
This is getting pretty serious.
treason is the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of
one's Sovereignty or Nation.traitor: A person who commits
treason.Sovereignty: The supreme, absolute, and uncontrollable power
by which any independent state is governedNation: A group of people
organized under a single government.Opposition to HB116 is
definitely treason against the state government of Utah. Opposition to HB116 is not treason against the people of Utah. Legislators who deliberately create legislation that does harm to the people
will probably be known as traitors to the people of Utah.
To "Pete In Texas", I disagree with Mr. Beckham's
emotionally charged comment but do appreciate your comments. I used like
comments a month back after reading a similar article from the DN. I was accused
of ranting by some on the comment board. Don't be surprised if you get ripped
for your opinion. Be my guest, please rant on.
Beckham has marginalized himself among Republicans (both those who agree and
disagree with him on HB 116) countless times already. He's a loose cannon. What
this article doesn't say is that out of the three candidates running for the
Utah state GOP vice chair position last month, Beckham came in a distant third
with less than 10% of the vote. So despite well over half the delegates voting
to pass a resolution asking Republicans in the state legislature to overturn HB
116, less than 10% of all delegates chose to actually vote for the most vocal
person in the state calling for the repeal. That ought to tell you everything
about Beckham's, ahem, "character." He's the Curt Bramble of the
"This whole "civility" movement is nothing more than a
continuation of the radical liberal scam to divert attention from the merits of
the issues, which liberals know is their weak point -- they invariably lose on
the issues"Absolutely not. Liberals lose on the issues? Not for
a second. Do you really believe that just because you, an anonymous poster on a
comment board, make this claim, do you really believe that just merely making
this claim, that it makes it true? Liberals consistently, and
easily, on these threads, out argue conservatives using logic and sound
arguments. Liberals do it here, they also do it on a local level and a federal
level. Now should you believe me just because I say so? No, of
course not. But look at the arguments, and try to leave ideology
aside, and notice who most consistently addresses the issues with logic and
knowledge, and with out deflecting, spinning, and side stepping the issue. For instance, look at the debt ceiling issue. Listen to the arguments on
this issue. Notice how absolutely bizare the arguments of the extreme
conservatives are on this issue. Notice how soundly they are refuted.
This comes of the same Spirit, the same distortion of the facts, and often the
same or similar sources as those who say we need to be fearful of electing an
individual who is a Mormon as President, because of his religious beliefs.
There is no doubt about where beckham stands on the issue of illegal
immigration...he wants enforcement,While our so called conservative
leges voted for amnesty, and chose to listen to a few Mormon lobbyists at the
expense of the people they represent........The church has been
wrong before and they're wrong now......let's send the RINO's packing
Funny how conservatives can be called every name in the book BUT one
conservative calls out our Legislators in the heat of the moment, speaking out
against a bad bill that puts people that aren't even supposed to be here above
the legal residents, traitors, and you get this type of article from Deseret
news. I am LDS and do not appreciate how DN constantly acts as if this HB116
legislation is directly for God. Please stop the attack on those that support
upholding the laws. Mr. Beckham, many of us know your position and
appreciate your work to repeal this awful legislation and will continue to
support you. Funny how the DN has said nothing of your very public apology for
the word used.
Tom, you are exactly right. Can't have it both ways.
When will the Deseret News quit saying the 4 bills passed this year that are
part of the "Utah solution" are not in harmony with, or based on the
Utah Compact?1. The 4 immigration bills dubbed the Utah solution are
constitutional. The US has power over naturalization/citizenship, not
immigration. Prior to case law beginning in 1893, Immigration was and is a State
Power. The constitution wasn't changed.2. The Utah Compact states
"Immigration is a federal policy issue between the U.S. government and
other countries not Utah and other countries." So the 4 bills violate The
Utah Compact, not the constitution.3. There are 4 bills. One that
provides enforcement HB 497, one that provides for migrant workers HB 466, one
that provides sponsoring HB 469, and one that provides a guest worker permit HB
Double negative typo: (delete the not)When will the Deseret News
quit saying the 4 bills passed this year that are part of the "Utah
solution" are in harmony with, or based on the Utah Compact?
Traitors may have been a little over the top, and I see that Mr. Beckham has
apologized publicly for his use of the word. Maybe subversive would have been a
better term for those that favor open borders and violation of our immigration
laws. In the 1930s the subversive Nazi 5th column infiltrated France and other
European countries in preparation for the invasion. By passing
HB116 the Utah Legislature has given its support to the open border globalists
and shown a disregard for our immigration laws. All of this in order to keep
cheap labor illegal alien workers available in order to depress wages in Utah
for the unskilled, and especially the working poor. If the unskilled
illegal foreign workers were to leave Utah, employers would have had to pay a
small increase in wages which would allow unskilled workers to help pay for
college, and others would be able to leave the welfare rolls. Traitors, no, but
certainly not supportive of the Utah unskilled workers. There is
very little respect for those in Utah that do manual or menial labor, and that
includes even the illegal foreign workers.
The Deseret News correctly points out that Beckham addressed his
"traitor" comment to the creators of HB116 (actual word Beckham used
was "drafters). Why then does the News imply, in its snide, mocking line
-- "That's a lot of traitors" -- that Beckham was referring not only
to the drafters of HB116, but to all of its supposed supporters? What's more, the Deseret News is choosing only one aspect of the definition of
the term "traitor" as found in standard American-English dictionaries.
Based on the complete definition of the term, and on what the
"drafters" of HB116 have in fact done, Brandon's opinion was
thoughtful and actually is quite valid.In other words, the Deseret
News isn't being altogether honest and truthful. Worse, it is attempting to
stifle an opinion that it doesn't like in the name of "civility."
There is nothing more hypocritical than attempting to assassinate someone's
character based on the pretext that that person has done so. There is nothing
more uncivil than telling a man he has no right to speak his considered opinion.
That is what the Deseret News has done with its editorial.
How nice it is that the Dnews Editorial staff writes a lame opinion piece and
then turns around and censors those who don't agree with it.Nice
that the Dnews only lets one side of the story on the threads! You guys must be
proud of yourselves for all the censoring you do!!The Dnews will
continue to all it can to enhance Utah as a sanctuary state. HB116 is
unconstitutional. The legislators even admitted it. So how was it passed?Traitor might not be correct word but it comes close. What would the
Dnews editorial staff call a legislature that passes an illegal bill?Btw, put a name on your editorials. Let's see who is really writing this